Mini 540: Nightmare (Game Over)

[Rishi]

/confirm

[Rishi]

Random.org

Unvote, Vote: SensFan

Self-voting is never a good strategy.

[Rishi]

Hmm, skitzer's bandwagon climbed to four (since he still has a vote on himself).

DS - care to comment?

[Rishi]

unvote, vote: Rishi

Why?

[Rishi]

Can you be more specific? It sounds like you're actually voting with a purpose, so maybe you can explain your thinking for the rest of us.

Hmm, skitzer's bandwagon climbed to four (since he still has a vote on himself).

DS - care to comment?

Reasons why I don't like this post: Firstly, I don't see anything wrong with the wagon. L-3 in this situation isn't dangerous, he was never going to get lynched. And really it was only L-4 once skitzer unvoted himself. IF someone put on a L-2 vote, that might be cause for alarm. Secondly, I don't like the tone of the post, it feels like a loaded question.

The point of the post was to see DS's reaction so that we could get some information.

Why are you sticking up for him?

[Rishi]

The point of the post was to see DS's reaction so that we could get some information.

Why are you sticking up for him?

Way to reinforce my vote. I am obv. not "sticking up for him", I found your post scummy.

Why don't you just let DS speak for himself? You've derailed the line of inquiry.

The word "scummy" gets tossed around a lot. You seem to be throwing out accusations, letting them sit, and then waiting before you explain yourself. Why is that?

From what I've seen on a quick meta-read, you're usually more helpful on Day 1. Want to be careful not to discuss ongoing games, but you are acting differently here...

Official Vote Count, editted in by MikeBurnFire

3 Disciple Slayer (thedragonsprincess, Draux, Gemelli)
2 thedragonsprincess (farside22, Holy)
2 SensFan (SensFan, Rishi)
2 Gemelli (Disciple Slayer, roffman)
1 Rishi (pete d)
1 Draux (skitzer)
1 pete d (opie)

[Rishi]

I take it that SensFan hasn't posted yet?

[Rishi]

Why don't you just let DS speak for himself? You've derailed the line of inquiry.

Can't see how this is true. I'm not arguing for DS, I'm arguing against you.

The word "scummy" gets tossed around a lot. You seem to be throwing out accusations, letting them sit, and then waiting before you explain yourself. Why is that?

Trying to get reactions.

From what I've seen on a quick meta-read, you're usually more helpful on Day 1. Want to be careful not to discuss ongoing games, but you are acting differently here...

I am being helpful. I'm calling out behaviour which I perceive as being suspicious

Well, pete d, this argument is going nowhere and distracting us from the thread. We're just going to have to agree to disagree. You find me scummy and I don't find myself scummy.

Unless you have something specific you want me to respond to, I'll leave it at that.

[Rishi]

I've seen SensFan post in other threads since this game began as well.

[Rishi]

Unvote, Vote: pete d

No point in ganging up on SensFan, who isn't even here. I would vote for DS, but he already has too many votes.

[Rishi]

Why roffman?

And I'm voting pete d for his tunnel-vision, for the record. I don't like the way DS is acting either.

Official Vote Count, editted in by MikeBurnFire
Seven votes needed to lynch

3 Disciple Slayer (thedragonsprincess, Draux, Gemelli)
2 pete d (opie, Rishi)
2 SensFan (SensFan, farside22)
1 Gemelli (roffman)
1 thedragonsprincess (Disciple Slayer)
1 Rishi (pete d)
1 roffman (Holy)
1 Draux (skitzer)

[Rishi]

Looking for replacements for Sensfan and Gemelli

I just saw SensFan signing up for more games in the queue. This really bugs me.

[Rishi]

I think, if we all agree that DS is acting scummy, we should just lynch him. In fact, I think it would be unlikely for the Mafia to eliminate him (if he's town), since he's always going to be a candidate for lynching.

I don't see the vig in that many setups. We shouldn't depend on that. And I think Jester is less likely than vig.

[Rishi]

It's too soon to lynch anyone.

And I'm not proposing a DS lynch. I am asking if the majority of players find him scummy. If so, we should lynch him and not dither around with vigilantes and whatnot.

[Rishi]

What's wrong with getting a feel for others? Do you suggest I unilaterally decide things without regard to the opinions of everyone else?

As for what I think, I don't think DS is being helpful at all. I wouldn't feel comfortable calling him town or scum before doing a meta-read, which I plan to do at some point.

[Rishi]

My point was that, if DS is scummy, we should lynch him. We shouldn't worry about "Is he a jester?" or "Should the vigilante target him?"

That is my point.

I did a quick meta-read of DS, by the way. He does always play like this. That means his playstyle is a null-tell.

[Rishi]

You also have a sideways defense of Rishi, another top candidate for lynch, saying some of their posts have been helpful.

So are you saying I've been completely unhelpful?

[Rishi]

That's true. It's difficult to be helpful when under the gun.

So, roffman has four votes. I have three. I know I'm not scum and I'm sure that roffman isn't. So I think I am being helpful in a way. It's interesting to see who is pushing these bandwagons.

[Rishi]

Why do you think he is innocent. There have been many questionable comments he has made so far this game.

True. But he's also my mason partner. We're confirmed innocent.

[Rishi]

Why wouldn't you believe the claim? I mean, the only other possible explanation is that roffman and I are both scum and we claimed Masons in order to cover something up. Considering there's probably only three Mafia in this game (typical for a 12-person setup), I think it would be fairly stupid for two of the Mafia to claim Mason.

Why claim? To draw out those who were voting for both of us. I think we were under pressure for fairly weak cases, and, though roffman was not in danger of being lynched, there are enough wild cards in this game (players that I don't completely trust) that I thought that roffman could have been lynched without someone asking for a claim. I just didn't want roffman to dig a deeper hole with his response and then be lynched.

Also, I realized if roffman was lynched, and you found out he was a mason, that it would be very suspect if I claimed Mason on Day 2. Again, I think that there are enough wild cards in this game that you all would believe that roffman's mason partner might be keeping quiet.

Basically, masons are somewhat pointless. The big power of masons is to be able to confirm each other. I wanted to do that while roffman and I were both here. The reason that power roles shouldn't claim on Day 1 is because they risk being targeted by the Mafia. I don't think losing a couple masons is a big deal.

So, Lulubelle, don't mess around with the "I like my vote where it is" crap. Either you believe our claim or you don't. I may not be the greatest player in the world, but I'm not dumb enough to give myself up and one of my Mafia partners on Day 1. Use some common sense.

Unvote, Vote Lulubelle

[Rishi]

You can do a meta-read on me, and see other games where I claimed when there was no pressure to do so. I think it's a common fallacy to think that someone should claim only when asked to do so or at L -1. I think there is just too many people who will lynch without asking for a claim. You guys seriously think that DS is going to ask for a claim before dropping a hammer on someone? The common consensus in this thread is that DS is probably town, but that he's a really horrible player. Would he really come under suspicion for doing that?

And masons can swing the game if they survive late, assuming their claim is believed. I find that, if people find a particular player scummy, then it doesn't matter what their claim is, they're going to lynch the person anyway.

If you don't believe my claim, then lynch me. I don't believe that everyone on my bandwagon is scum, but I think that, if you focus all attention on me, then the scum will slip through

Official Vote Count, editted in by MikeBurnFire
7 votes needed to lynch

4 Rishi (pete d, Draux, Lulubelle, thedragonsprincess)
3 roffman (Holy, farside22, Disciple Slayer)
2 skitzer (gorckat, skitzer)
1 Disciple Slayer (roffman)
1 pete d (opie)
1 Lulubelle (Rishi)

[Rishi]

Just so you know, opie is in a game that I'm modding. He's away until the 27th, which I guess is today. So hopefully he should pop in soon.

I find Lulubelle less suspicious now. I think it's perfectly plausible that her reaction was to test me.

Speaking of lurkers...

Unvote, Vote: Draux

[Rishi]

I disagree that masons are more valuable than I seem to think. What we have is a disagreement in the estimation of the role, though. I think a philosophical discussion is not really relevant to the game right now.

And opie is right. I don't believe that absent players should be the subject of attack. There are lots of reasons why someone may not be posting, most of which have nothing to do with the game. They don't become more suspicious just by not posting. I was just trying to get Draux to post.

Unvote, vote: thedragonprincess

Looking for more meaningful content. Most of her posts have been one-liners.

[Rishi]

I'm not asking for page-long posts. Maybe 2-3 paragraphs?

Asking questions is fine, but who do you find suspicious? You can't just ask questions and not reach any conclusions.

[Rishi]

Rishi, you never answered my question in Post 165. Besides Disciple Slayer, who were/are the other "wild cards" you were afraid would lynch roffman without asking him to claim?

Oh. I intentionally avoided this question. I didn't want to insult anyone.

But I'll respond anyway. I have seen skitzer make some questionable decisions in the past. And I have no idea how to feel about thedragonprincess.

I'd say the other players generally seem to know what they are doing.

[Rishi]

Yes, skitzer, but in that game, we had discussed in the thread what "sans" meant and the fact that there were no vanilla townies was talked about several times. You were obviously not reading the other posts. (In the game I'm referring to, we had no vanilla townies. After the players figured out the setup, skitzer claimed vanilla... so we lynched him. He was scum.)

And opie, I didn't think things through that thoroughly (alliteration!). As I said, you either believe my claim or you don't. I think that if we harp on this point too much, it detracts the focus of the thread away from other players. You, of all people, should know the dangers of having townies bicker, letting the scum lie back and have victory handed to them. Step away from the tunnel-vision and look at the big picture. It is just too big a risk for two scum to claim mason and reveal themselves. I don't play gambits like that.

[Rishi]

unvote, vote: Rishi

Why?

[Rishi]

Just for the record, a couple completed games where I claimed early even though there was no pressure to do so. I came under fire in both of these games for the unusual timing of my claim and both were truthful. Links go to the actual claim:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 743#700743
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 443#770443

Good or bad play, it's a play I have made before.

[Rishi]

So you think it's more reckless for a mason to claim on Day 1 than for two scum to out themselves?

[Rishi]

And what makes you think I'm a reckless player? What evidence do you have of this?

[Rishi]

I said it would be reckless for scum to out themselves like that with a mason claim, which is part of the reason I'm at least willing to consider it was a true claim. But you still haven't answered why you were so worried about the wildcards voting Roffman off when 2/3 of them were already on him.

Tunnel-vision much?

Anyway, I was worried about MYSELF and roffman. We were both in danger of being lynched. If someone switched over to my bandwagon (which could have happened if I continued to defend him), then those "wild cards" could have switched over. The claim seemed an easy way to abate both possible lynches.

[Rishi]

The nature of this game causes people to criticize others. You need kind of a thick skin to play. Perhaps you should play something a little more your speed, like Uno?

Official Vote Count, editted in by MikeBurnFire
7 votes needed to lynch

3 Draux (Draux, gorckat, farside22)
2 skitzer (skitzer, pete d)
2 thedragonprincess (Rishi, Lulubelle,)
2 Lulubelle (Disciple Slayer, Holy)
1 opie (opie)
1 Rishi (thedragonsprincess)
1 Disciple Slayer (roffman)

[Rishi]

farside:spelling? anal

y

ze.

Now look who is being anal. :)

In any case, I'm not sure I like thedragonprincess' reaction. It's hard to say. I'm inclined to believe she exploded because she might be scum. I have seen townies get frustrated when wrongly accused, but this seems a bit extreme.

[Rishi]

Ha. I just said the same thing skitzer said. I should stop posting before reading.

[Rishi]

And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

No one REALLY knows what uffish means.

[Rishi]

Not to be confused with Danger Mouse!

[Rishi]

I didn't like what TDP had to say, but part of the pressure was to get her to post more meaningful content. At least angelmouse is participating. I see what everyone is saying about the blow-up being a bit of a null-tell.

I think we should look at the Disciple Slayer lynch. The time to lynch unreadable/wild card players is early in the game, when we can still recover. We'll be kicking ourselves on a later day if he turns out to be scum, or he's a townie who picks wrong in the endgame because he's not paying attention.

I think, of my list of wild card players, DS is the only one left. TDP was replaced and skitzer is proving himself to be a better player than I originally thought. So, in light of that:

Unvote, Vote: Disiciple Slayer

[Rishi]

PS. Apologies to anyone else offended by being called a they, it, them, their, etc. or anything else. If i decided to insult someone or be intentionally rude, it would be a lot less subtle and more barbaric.

It's more insulting to be called by the wrong gender.

<ahem> skitzer.

[Rishi]

If a person is convinced of another's guilt, I see nothing wrong with steering a lynch that way, which is why I asked why you weren't voting him.

But we're all fallible, aren't we? Do you think we should lynch someone right now or would you prefer more discussion?

I heartily disagree that people should jump on the most probable bandwagon (except in the case of a deadline).

[Rishi]

Wow. Rishi/Roffman masons? I'm honestly at a loss for words.
What are your rolenames?
Rishi, is Roffman's innocence guaranteed?
Roffman, is Rishi's innocence guaranteed?

My role PM calls me a mason. It also calls me "The Catcher" but I have no idea what that means. The PM doesn't say if we're confirmed, so I PMed MBF before the game began, and he told us we were confirmed innocent.

The strength in masons is in remaining

hidden

innocents. Breadcrumb your role and your partner's identity, but don't claim unless you absolutely have to. Assuming you are innocent, the scums now know a hell of a lot more about the setup than they did before you claimed for the two of you.

I still feel good about the claim. It was a little early, but I am fairly sure that either me or roffman would have been pushed to L -1 at some point on Day 1, and then we would have had to claim anyway. The effect is the same.

I felt reasonably sure that I could defend myself against further attacks, but I'll admit I had less confidence in roffman, which is why I wanted to take lead on the claim.

And, believe me, I might value masons a little less than most players, BUT I wouldn't have claimed if there wasn't already pressure on both me and roffman.

[Rishi]

Hmm. Does everyone have baseball names in their role PMs? You don't have to say what it is, but I'm just curious.

[Rishi]

I still feel good about the claim. It was a little early, but I am fairly sure that either me or roffman would have been pushed to L -1 at some point on Day 1, and then we would have had to claim anyway. The effect is the same.

Do you think you got as much info from a three-person bandwagon as you would have a five- or six-person bandwagon?

You have a good point. Still, with players like DS and TDP (who is no longer in the game), I didn't want to risk my bandwagon going to five and getting two quick votes.

Wow, Holy is really trying to get on your good side.

[Rishi]

@Rishi

Your comment about Holy tring to get on Glorks good side seemed to imply you feel she is scum. I'm just curious to know where you stand on this subject.

Not necessarily, but it was something worth pointing out. Maybe she's just trying to get Glork to remove his vote. Or maybe she genuinely likes Glork's analysis and didn't realize she was sucking up to him. Lots of explanations. I brought up the point to see how Holy reacted the statement. Yes, I did think it could be a scummy move as well.

I wouldn't say that Holy was scummy merely based on that one observation, but it's one of those IGMEOY things.

[Rishi]

I go away for a couple days... and nothing happens.

Do you have flavor text that you can paraphrase, skitzer?

[Rishi]

Looking for a replacement for Disciple Slayer

Glory be!

[Rishi]

Then comes the mason claim. Hmm...I find this very suspect, as especialyl in a game like this, where it would be very easy for the "masonry" to not really exist. To me, my first response to this was that it was a very, very risky scum gambit. The claim along with the fact that both are on the top of my scum list really bothers me.

Rishi, your post 146, I have a few questions, to both of the "masons"
1. Were you confirmed by the mod to both be innocent?
2. Is there anything to suggest your partner may not be town?
3. Rishi only, in 146 you say that there were fairly weak cases on both of you. Because you seem unable to defend the case on you, just ignoring it, is it not hypocritical to now take on a second case to try and debunk? Seriously, read over this post, because I have gotten nothing but strong cases on both of you.

These questions have already been answered, which means that you're not reading particularly carefully, so I find it difficult to take you seriously.

I think we've moved past the mason thing and I have no idea why you're trying to throw this thread into an unending loop with no progress.

I'm done discussing the claim. Vote me if you want to.

[Rishi]

What does a firestarter do?

[Rishi]

@Rishi

is Skitzer play anything similiar as game you played with him? Would you say scum or town in accordance with his comments?

He didn't last very long in that game at all. Early on in Day 1, we decided to mass claim (since we realized that the town all had power roles). He claimed vanilla and we lynched him. He was scum, but I can't say I have a good read on him. Honestly, for me to have a read on someone, I think I need to play with them both as town and as scum.

As for the unusual roles - I am not surprised. Remember, people, the mod (MBF) is the guy who did the flash animation with the Mafia tutorial which listed all the roles. This is a guy who knows the game fairly well.

If people are not believing Holy, though (I'm on the fence right now), I would volunteer to drop the hammer. If she's telling the truth about the role - an outed mason is of considerably less value, and it would confirm roffman. If she's not, then we got her. It's a really unusual role to claim, and I don't know enough about Holy to know if she'd fake that kind of claim.

[Rishi]

I like this plan. Getting those who we think are scum to drop the hammer.

Personally, I would pick Nocmen.

[Rishi]

However, I think it would be irresponsible not too. When you replace a player, you are stepping into that person's shoes. Not coming in as an entirely new player. You are assuming their role. If the player you replaced was acting scummy you unfortunately have to carry that baggage.

Just my two cent on the subject. It is very difficult to replace a player. Sometime that player did some bad moves and the person is stuck trying to get out a hole that just is impossible. Although I don't completely wipe away what the player did before the replacement I do give more of a chance to the new player to try and state something that shows they are town or scum.

I agree with you somewhat. Sometimes a player steps into a difficult situation, but the reason I don't think that replacements should start with a clean slate is that, it should never, ever become a valid strategy to ask for a replacement. I don't think people actually do this, but I can see a scum player, who is about to be caught, asking for a replacement hoping that the other players will cut the replacement some slack.

The main problem I have with this is that it actually encourages people to ask for replacements. This concept does compete with another interest - people will be less willing to replace if they always come in under fire. But still, I think if the former player is scummy, then the replacement just has to live with it.

[Rishi]

I still like the idea of having Nocmen hammer, but I would be okay with Lulubelle. I agree that opie has been defending himself well. I don't think anyone else's name has really come up in this discussion.

[Rishi]

Rishi, can you give any confirmation on having a dream of sorts?

No dream last night. I even double-checked my inbox to see if I missed one. I just have two PMs from MBF (one was the role PM and the other was an answer to my question - confirming that masons are innocent).

Dunno what to make of this...

[Rishi]

Unvote, Vote: Holy

I think she's a better lynch candidate than opie, and I don't want this game to stall before deadline.

[Rishi]

Vote: angelmouse

Not on the Holy lynch, and I don't like seeing the town tunnel-vision on one or two people.

Though I'm convinced that one of Holy's partners must have sold her out.

[Rishi]

I don't think Holy was a Firestarter, because Lulubelle isn't dead. Very clever claim though...

[Rishi]

There are signs of prolonged struggle, leading the town to believe that whoever committed this crime took their time, slowly and repeatedly choking and releasing the victim.

So all scum are sadists? Or would that be an sk?

I'm a little surprised it was opie given several people were considering he could be scum.

Someone was confused.

Though now he's pretending he never was.

So, a scumbuddy of Holy might pretend he was confused as a tactic, but really not be confused.

Okay.. maybe this is reaching.

[Rishi]

Someone was confused.

Though now he's pretending he never was.

mod: Did the first post ever list Holy as just a Sadist w/o the Scum identifier?

I feel like I read, maybe in the Holy lynch scene, that she was a Sadist, but didn't see scum specified.

What I was questioning was whether anyone else felt like the NK as described sounded like a scum kill or an SK kill and that perhaps Opie did get someone protected at night.

You're still not answering the question. I understand where the confusion comes from. The lynch scene was a little unclear. But, how were you confused earlier and then so confident in your later post that she was scum?

[Rishi]

I've wanted to lynch DS/Nocmen for a while now. I'm sure I have reasons in an earlier post.

In fact...

Unvote, Vote: Nocmen

[Rishi]

That sounds interesting, I wish I remembered it.

My vote stands. Even if Nocmen is town, an inattentive townie is a liability.

[Rishi]

I feel Noc has either gained (or is faking having gained) a post restriction. I don't recall this happening yesterday, which is distinctly odd.

hmmm.

@Nocmen: can you at least tell us who you are suspicious of (if anyone)? Quote them and call them a bad person or something like that.

So what do we think this post restriction is? None of Nocmen's Day 2 posts have been over one line. There's an amnesia theme running through them, as well.

[Rishi]

Didn't realize I still had a vote on Nocmen.

Unvote

Until we learn more about this post restriction thing.

[Rishi]

The game is quiet because 3 people have been MIA.
I still don't know what to think about Nocmen. Glork's comments made the most sense considering the game. I will type the word trigger and see if it helps you Nocmen. Other then that I don't know what to say.

I doubt the word "trigger" is correct, considering he's allowed to say that already. "Hammer" seems more likely.

[Rishi]

you make a good point...I guess I could be wrong...

unvote

but I still have suspicions.

Wow, you're certainly agreeable.

[Rishi]

Scum scum scum scum.

I assume you're referring to skitzer?

[Rishi]

EBWOP: And by the way, that would imply that Glork, Pete D, and gorkcat are not scum unless there is some hideously relentless busing going on.

I just like the way you add your own name to the list.

Yeah. I noticed this too.

But, does that mean if skitzer is not scum, that Glork, pete d and gorkcat ARE scum?

[Rishi]

gorckat, I'm not disqualifying pete as scum. EVERYONE could be scum, because as a town member, I don't know much of anything.

You're not helping your case. This seems too forced. It feels like you are intentionally feigning ignorance to throw people off your trail.

Vote: skitzer

[Rishi]

EBWOP: And by the way, that would imply that Glork, Pete D, and gorkcat are not scum unless there is some hideously relentless busing going on.

I just like the way you add your own name to the list.

Yeah. I noticed this too.

But, does that mean if skitzer is not scum, that Glork, pete d and gorkcat ARE scum?

No.

If A then B

is equivalent to

If not B, then not A

[/url]. It says nothing about

If not A

.

See the "Comparisons" and "Examples" section of this article for further explanation.

I'm quite aware of the contrapositive rule. I was being factitious.

[Rishi]

Just checking in. Still like the idea of lynching skitzer. Either he's scum or a town liability.

[Rishi]

Well Riki needs to hurry up. I'm wondering if he is stalling on purpose or if he isn't around. I'm still suspicious of him.

Actually "stalling" wouldn't help me in any way, regardless of alignement.
Most probably the other way around.

I generally play mafia, among other things, on my free time at work.
My boss is on one of his "projects" right now and it always messes with my schedule on all "free time stuff". I've been in trouble in the past games because of this and that's why I limit myself to playing one game and modding one game at a time.

I'd like to say a bit about Glork and pete d and of course Skitzer. I have a thory about Holy as well.
To comment on gorkcat and farside I will have to re-read them.

Please, don't hammer now.
We actually have two weeks to deadline, but since people want blood as fast as possible I promise to finish him until Sunday.

First I understand life and being busy. I just don't want to see you waiting to the last minute to finish. Most people are waiting on you.

I'm not. I would feel comfortable with someone hammering skitzer.

[Rishi]

Hey. Got my prod. Didn't realize it had been so long since I posted. Still thinking skitzer...

[Rishi]

Can I vote Skitz yet?

Yes, you can, and I will hammer tonight.

If you want to vote for skitzer, why not just do it now? Why are you specifically waiting to hammer?

[Rishi]

Good job scum.