Mini #534 - Vegetable Mafia (Game Over!)

[Crub]

Damn I missed my random chance to vote Oman Damn this sickness.

Sorry guys I probably won't be terribly active for the next couple of days while I'm still bed-ridden.

[Crub]

Ahh, there you are. I'll return to my original random vote.

unvote
vote: crub

Aside from that, cows are hateful creatures that can never be trusted under any circumstances. The only thing they are ever good for is eating.

You must be punished

Can someone please unvote Oman so I can vote him?

[Crub]

Cool I hope this makes me the opportunistic 3rd vote?

vote:ryan

[Crub]

YAY CRUB COW. Btw, did you see hasdkahgjrkjhayradfh actually stole your avatar?

No. That is not right

[Crub]

Holy crap sorry I've missed so much, I've had a busy weekend I'm catching up now

[Crub]

Ok I've read back up.

Here's my thoughts.

Destructor a bit of advice. NEVER admit to trying to gambit a fake vote even if you were, it's a typical wtf move. A majority of games the mod will count your vote if your intentions are plain. Coming out and saying "my vote shouldn't count because I didn't unvote" is like saying "I know my vote was dubious, but I'm trying to wash my hands of the responsibility of making it". You made the vote, live with the consequences of making it.

ryan, you've made your case against destructor, don't get huffy when people won't follow you. Your suspicion against Oman is eyebrow raising and flimsy at best (maybe OMGUS'y or maybe prior involvement?).

Phate, seriously wtf dude? Your opinion seems to float with the wind, and your semantic's argument does nothing but distract the town.

kravhen, I'm not sure about. Looking townie but leaning toward townie-truism spouting.

Oman <3

I'm happy with my ryan vote for now.

[Crub]

Wow I guess you've never played through a random phase before? I think the bandwagon on you also served it's purpose with destructor's slip up. So I'm certainly not holding that against him.

[Crub]

Sorry about my lack of activity dudes. Christmas time is busy for me Let me re-read and then I'll add some comments.

[Crub]

unvote

for now.

I've got real problems with the whole Phate claim. Even if he didn't understand what a safe claim is, why the hell would he be claiming there? Same thing for princess! Why the hell are you claiming there?

Even if both of you

are

town thanks for giving the scum a better chance of targeting a power-role at night. If the rest of the town comes to an agreement about a mass-claim then we should definitely be restricting it to flavour only. (ie. what vegetable each person is) But given the possibility that the scum do have safe claims I'm not sure how valuable it's going to be.

[Crub]

hey everyone sorry im here. Ive come down with a nasty case of strep.... ill reread and post my thoughts tomorrow morning

Now that phate has owned up to being a self-ish scum helper, can you please elaborate on why you claimed when you did.

[Crub]

Crub, I think TDS' claim made sense. What was your issue with it?

It gave information to the scum, and not really much information to the town.

1. Assuming both are telling the truth and are vanilla town, it reduces the amount of targets there are for the scum to choose from to hit a power role.

2. Assuming Phate is town. Wouldn't it actually have benefited us to let the scum think that all vanilla's were lettuce?

3. Even if TDS thinks Phate is scum for the 'slip' there is no need to claim there because a majority of people already know that Phate was mis-informed.

[Crub]

Just checking in, but nothing to add really. Sure the phate claim is very suss but I still don't see the benefit in fake-claiming there as scum.

[Crub]

Wow chill pill's needed all around methinks.

vote Phate

you're way into negative townie points now.

[Crub]

We called it out a few pages ago, which were written more than a RL week ago. You had plenty of time, on which your response was "Your wrong, so I won't answer your questions" and "You're scum for wanting me to answer your questions, so I won't answer them for you, scum".

WHERE did I say that? Quote it. I want to know exactly where I said I wouldn't answer your questions because it was scummy.

Umm when he pointed out your total lack of understanding of the "2 slips" thing and you chucked a tanty and said he was wrong and you weren't going to answer?

[Crub]

Just because you got lucky with your OMGUS day 1

Anyway I'm cool for going first in the name claim, but I'm waiting before we have an overall agreement on it before I go.

[Crub]

Spinach

destructor you're up.

[Crub]

In the mean time...

Vote: Crub

Care to outline why exactly?

[Crub]

when I think of Green Pepper I'm thinking of what I'd call a capsicum, which come in 3 or 4 different colours.

soupfly, why do you find "Green Bean(s)" less scummy than "Green Pepper".

Also at this point I'm assuming the scum do have safe claim's just because most of the obvious green veggies were picked and no one was caught out.

[Crub]

In the mean time...

Vote: Crub

Care to outline why exactly?

Maybe I got a guilty investigation on you?

I'm feeling like we're seeing a lot of opportunism around Oman's 'beans' thing. That said, it could be dodgy. I'll try to reread and maybe do a player-by-player-thing.

The good old half a cop claim

[Crub]

unless destructor is mafia simply claiming cop. that being said... anyone care to counterclaim?

*raised eyebrows*

[Crub]

leek isn't uncommon

Also I cannot believe people want to string Oman up for adding a 's'. I think it's a minor infraction at best. Either way he's away for another 5 days, so I guess we have to wait if you want any sort of reaction from him.

[Crub]

Also this whole fruit argument is crazy, it's confirmed that at least 2 townspeople are fruit, how does that make it any more likely that both the scum are fruit?

[Crub]

Also this whole fruit argument is crazy, it's confirmed that at least 2 townspeople are fruit, how does that make it any more likely that both the scum are fruit?

Which two townies are confirmed fruits?

Considering there are 4 fruits and only 2 scum then at least 2 townies are confirmed fruits.

[Crub]

It's a 12 person mini I'm assuming theres 3 scum just like in every other 12 person game I've played.

Either way my point about some of the fruit being town still holds.

[Crub]

It wasn't confidence, I just don't think there's a situation where there isn't 2 scum left.

[Crub]

4 mafia in a 12 player game? Are you serious? If we mislynched day 1 we'd be in LYLO right now. That would be way overbalanced for the mafia.

3 mafia + SK is possible, I wasn't thinking about the SK when I was talking about the fruit though.

Anyway even taking this into account there is still at least 1 townie that's a fruit.

[Crub]

"Who, him? Scum? Sure. Also, I'm going to leave the door open to claim cop later if need be."

Did you miss this?

I'm not the cop.

[Crub]

lulz, I feel left out

Just because you've never had roasted cucumber and capsicum doesn't mean we should be limited by your culinary experiences.

Fos: WhoMe?

Why are you trying to limit the towns choices?

[Crub]

My point exactly ... why are you trying to limit the towns choices based on your culinary experiences? I've had both roasted capsicum and cucumber as part of a roast dinner.

Basically you are second guessing the roles and then using your flawed assumptions to limit who you should consider as scum. I think at this point it's more than likely that scum did have safe claims, and the safe claims wouldn't be very safe if they didn't fit in with the other claims.

Also like destructor's fruit claim at least 1 of the people on your list is pretty much guaranteed town, which invalidates the entire premise.

[Crub]

Heh. I also noticed red cabbage is mentioned there *eyebrow* ... spinach is not mentioned ...

Basically it comes to a point where you are going to have to accept that this tangent you are taking the town on is not going to be greatly supported because for one thing it's all based on a big GUESS.

There's a heap of way's you can try and split the claims but unless you've got more information than the rest of us I don't see how you can be sure enough to want to give away a lynch (and possibly another 2 NK's - which could put us in LYLO) in order to test your theory.

[Crub]

I'd like to know why you consider Phate and tdp confirmed other than their shoddy claims? Phate I can see because the whole safe-claim banter that went along with it, but tdp's claim is still pretty iffy with me. Why wouldn't scum with a safe claim take the opportunity to claim there? Especially when you take into account tdp's other recent moves, which IMO have been less than pro-town.

fos: tdp

[Crub]

Let's get to the next page

I wanna hear what kitty has to say ... and it better be good

[Crub]

I feel bad spamming the thread though

[Crub]

I just finished doing some sort of a simulation and I think we should consider a No Lynch today.

I need to look over it again, but basically, if we mislynch today the town's chance of winning will be reduced to less than 40% and we'll either be in lylo or have a scum win. Lynching scum will give us a 55% chance of winning and No Lynch gives us 42% and is guaranteed to take us to Day 5 at the least. All of this is assuming scum kill every night.

I'll elaborate more when I've got a bit more time. You guys better appreciate this. It took me hours! =D

Did you forget about the possibility of 2 kills tonight?

[Crub]

That said, I have no night actions myself, so regardless of the weird flavour of my role, I'm essentially a vanilla townie.

She already answered that

I don't understand why Oman's death means that we won't get a 2nd kill tonight if we no lynch?

[Crub]

Link between Destructor and thedragonsprincess:
here
and
here

I'd read that as them being opposed. Would make sense for you to link them if you're scum with either (for distancing, obv).

I didn't read it either way, to me the counter-claim thing just gave tdp negative townie points and the half-claim gave destructor eye-rolling points.

vote: thedragonsprincess

tdp makes sense the most ways.

[Crub]

Because he hadn't fully claimed and knowing the identity of the cop would have been of no benefit to us, and a huge benefit to scum.

Anyway my state of play and hopefully answers to destructor's questions. Firstly obviously soup is clean. Secondly I think kitty is also probably town, it makes no sense to have a Post Restriction like that as scum and even less sense for her to make it up. Everyone else I could go either way. I can see scenario's where any of tdp/destructor/gorckat/Phate in any combination are scum together. tdp, just "fits" for me in more ways. Having said that I haven't read through the thread in it's entirety for a long while so I'm probably missing interactions that rule some combo's out.

[Crub]

So? What's stopping Phate getting Lettuce as a Safe Claim, and then him just assuming that it means that all the Vanilla's are Lettuce?

It's why I think Phate and tdp could still be Scum together, maybe tdp was pointing out to her partner that he had no idea what he was talking about?

Also after re-reading day 1, I couldn't find anything specifically that would exclude Phate and/or Destructor from being partners with ryan.

Phate/gorck please give me post numbers so I can read it again.

[Crub]

So?

He thinks to himself oh boy Lettuce is a safe claim all the Vanilla's in the town must be Lettuce. If I claim lettuce at the first opportunity all the other vanilla's will know that I'm cleared. yay for me! Then when tdp comes along and ruins the party for him he has to back track fully.

I do not think his dodgy claim clears him as anything. So he misunderstood what a Safe Claim is ... why can't he have misunderstood what a Safe Claim is juts as easily as scum as town? In fact his selfish rush to clear himself at the first opportunity makes more sense for him to be scum than what it does for him to be town.

Anyway I'm not talking about him mis-understanding Safe Claims I want to know specifically what excludes Phate and Destructor from being scum with ryan.

[Crub]

@gorkcat/destructor re: Multiple Safe-Claims:
I've never been scum with a Safe Claim before. I just assumed that each scum would get a different Safe Claim that they can use.

Also @destructor this is why I'm not willing to rule out Phate as being possible scum. I still think it's possible that tdp is scum with Phate even though she counter-claimed, because in the end that counter-claim actually helped Phate by drawing his attention to the fact that he was mistaken about the nature of Safe Claims, and their use in a closed setup. In the worst case scenario if Phate had of been lynched and flipped as scum tdp has bought herself a nice defence to use down the track.

Also @Phate about ryan attacking people. I've seen Mafia brutally attack other Mafia before, in fact I think it can get even more heated between scum buddies that don't see eye to eye.

[Crub]

woah. You do realise that's a hammer right?

[Crub]

oh kitty unvoted oops sorry for being alarmist

[Crub]

Oh and des ... why don't I think kitty is scum ... Why would scum make up a PR like that it would be insane ... I'd also consider it Bastard Moddery if she was scum with that PR.

[Crub]

Fos: Gorckat

SK? You can't be serious. Even if in the remotest possibility we had a SK (which clearly we don't) we're probably at LYLO, anything less than mafia at this point is game over. Seriously.

[Crub]

Oh btw gorckat and Phate are pretty much confirmed to be the remaining scum for me, unless Kitty is making up her PR.

Soup can you please weigh in with your thoughts of everyone?

@kitty: Firstly analysing the reason for the NK is often filled with WIFOM. I do think destructor's suspicion of gorckat probably did provide some incentive for him to be killed. Are you still considering Phate as possible scum at this point? If not I'd like to know why not.

[Crub]

I actually said I thought the last two were you and phate. Kitty still is an outside chance, and I'd like to know how she feels about Phate that's all.

[Crub]

Are you seriously advocating an SK and Vig? Town could possibly win night 1 and the mafia could win day 2 in the scenario you are proposing. I think it is HIGHLY unlikely. I think that des was probably one-shot, and he used up his shot night 1, from the way he speculated about night actions, and from the fact that we've only had one kill nights 2 and 3. While I do find the "immune to investigations" thing with kitty to be off, again I just can't see scum with that PR.

I also still want to hear from Soup and Phate. Please weigh in with your thoughts on everyone.

[Crub]

You need to backpedal harder than that

mod:

can we get a prod on soup and phate?

[Crub]

I think Aimee is experienced enough as a mod and I'd hope not bastard mod enough to make the game that unbalanced.

Also Kitty claimed everything night related immune *except* NK.

[Crub]

I'm around, I've just got not much more to say. I'd like to hear some more from Phate, before I make up my mind, but it's pretty safe to say that you're going to be hanging when today is over.

[Crub]

Nothing left to say.

vote: gorckat

[Crub]

He already claimed Miller ...

[Crub]

In fact hasn't everyone already claimed now?
I'm vanilla, your vanilla, kitty is a post-restricted night-action immune (except for NK) vanilla, soup is mason and gorckat is a miller.

[Crub]

Not Scum.

Phate I want to hear what you've got to say ... Kitty I want to hear your theory how Oman could have investigated 2 people on day 1 in a day start game?

[Crub]

vote:Bookitty

[Crub]

Good game everyone I was going to hammer Phate but then, got paranoid about kitty being alive in endgame.

[Crub]

Yeah basically I kept thinking that there is no way that kitty could have all those negatives without a positive in there somewhere And the vote/reasoning for Phate was just too good to be true

Townies self-hammering was like a wtf moment both times I'm still pissed at the ryan self-hammer, the only thing we talked about night 0 was how important it was that ryan lived to endgame

Oh also the Vanilla claims by Phate/tdp day 1, helped us out a lot.

[Crub]

haha I was laughing hard at that

I am so surprised that des didn't nk night 3. I had him pegged as one-shot at that point, but I should have realised that he also targetted Oman night 2.

Anyway this game was a heap of fun I got to nk Oman <3

Thanks Aimee/Patrick for running it for us

[Crub]

curious why oman got killed by mafia on N2.

gorckat wanted to kill des, I convinced him that Oman was better because the "Green" thing would relieve some pressure from gorckat, and because I got the feeling he was onto me Oh we also knew that he was a power-role of some description.

des got the bullet because gorckat convinced me that he was the doctor when I was thinking he was the vig. gorckat was convinced that kitty was the SK We also thought that des was pretty close to figuring it out, another reason why I'm really surprised that gorckat didn't get the vig's bullet on night 3.

I also thought very hard about whether or not I should kill soup or kitty night 4. I was thinking that soup was leaning more towards phate as the scum than kitty was, but I was thinking that a close examination of day 1 would hurt me if it came down to convincing soup that Phate was scum and I was town. I thought with Kitty and Phate alive there was the possibility that they would both go after each other, but I was very surprised to log on this morning and find that kitty had voted.

[Crub]

I was very concerned at the time, mainly because the power-role pool was small and you were in it

I think it would have ended worse for you if you hadn't of retracted it though