Mini 536: Heroes Smalltown. Game Over!

[Gorgon]

I pick DL. I like the idea of just hanging back at night.

[Gorgon]

Question.

What kind of bear is best?

If Sylar is DL, or has gained his ability, can he phase out and still kill on the same night?

[Gorgon]

I don't have anything on Mohinder and DL though and I would be interested in some discussion about their respective abilities and usefulness as pro-town and danger as anti-town.

Mohinder would be pretty useful as town, but the problem of course is that the people he networks will never be sure if they can trust him, and vice versa. Thus he wouldn't be that damaging as scum either, IMO.

My own ability would certainly be useful in the hands of scum ... since it allows immunity from tracking, NKs (useful for all alignments since there are two killing groups), etc. In the hands of Sylar it would be pretty bad for the town, especially since Seol has confirmed that he could kill and phase out on the same night. Hopefully my ability will deter people from targeting me for NK, though ... Sylar and mafia alike can never be sure which nights I'm phased out on. As town, survival is the extent of my usefulness to the rest of the town, but at least that's something.

And finally, we have the Investigation Roles. Matt and Claude are just the usual Tracker and Watcher stuff. I personally think they are more helpful as pro-town than anti-town but it might be WIFOM since I'm Claude

No, it's not WIFOM at all. It's simply a biased opinion. Not that I disagree ... Matt and Claude would be pretty useless in the hands of scum; certainly they wouldn't be damaging for the town at all if they're scum.

I'd like to ask people, please work off the assumption that I'm town here (as I'm looking for advice). Do you feel that my usage of my power tonight would be a benefit or a detriment to the town?

Depends very much on what you use it for. In any case, I wouldn't recommend using it on Matt or Claude, as per my opinion of these roles above.

[Gorgon]

Also, what do we gain from having oman change the roles of those two players?

Potentially, if Oman thinks he knows better who they should track/watch than they themselves, he could use his ability to 'help' them. I certainly wouldn't recommend that, though.

[Gorgon]

I agree with JDodge about Oman's self protecting comment. There is very very little chance the mafia would target him tonight, redirecting Doc protection to him would be quite a waste IMO.

I agree. Seeing that Linderman doesn't protect from Sylar, Linderman only protects from mafia. Therefore he should protect people whom he deems to have a high (townish)*(useful to town factor) ... i.e. if he's town. If Linderman is scum, he's completely useless.

Mathcam is right, I shouldn't use my power N1 (based on my previous N1 experience).

I'm inclined to agree with this as well. There probably won't be enough to go on to make a good judgement call N1, and the potential to fuck things up is too high.

I agree with TSQ on ZA btw. ZA hasn't contributed much of value so far.

[Gorgon]

Given the preponderance of investigative roles, one strategy we might employ would be to attempt to catch one or more of them in a trap by having them all reveal their investigation results each night in a given order. If we have cops A, B, C, then on day 2, we could make cop A reveal first, then cop B, then cop C. On day 3, we permute the order so that B reveals first, then C, then A, etc.

...

It seems that such a strategy might, in addition to making life difficult for scum cops, have the added benefit of turning part of the scum-hunting process into a logic puzzle which the town could solve, much like in Dethy-type games.

I haven't thought this through myself, but I certainly don't see the harm in everyone reporting their results every day, seeing that roles are already public knowledge, etc.

I don't think this strategy is viable because I don't suspect our investigative roles will survive for a large portion of the game.

That's a moot point, since the viability of the strategy is not dependent on the life expectancy of the investigative roles; their short life expectancy would merely reduce the effectiveness of the plan, not nullify it.

Oman, I find it very strange that you're doing a 180 on giving Adele powers. A couple pages ago you were discussing sending her your redirection ability, although it had previously been discussed at length that your powers in scum hands basically nullify investigation results and could make a town aligned doctor absolutely useless. Now you're getting hesitant about her being given Investigation powers, even though they can still be in the town's benefit if given to scum.

I concur.

Mathcam: His role is dangerous in mafia hands the longer we go on the more dangerous it becomes. Even if he is town then I would like to know who was visiting him.

If he is not their when you get their, we could have our SK

How would this role get more dangerous for the town as more time passes? A scum-for-townie trade is usually never a good deal for scum, seeing that they're in the minority.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the bolded part only applied to Matt (ZONEACE). I.e. if Matt tracks Sylar, he won't get information on his kill, only his nightchoice. The way I see it, Claude (YvonneSeer) only detects who targets the person he's watching, but doesn't get any other information.

LOL does it now? telling the scum what you are going to do before you do it is not the scum thing to do? nice SPIN. Answer me this DAS, why do you want to give scum information before tonight? Why do you want us to give the scum information before tonight?

The thing you're missing here is that this game is completely open with regards to abilities (except the nightkills). A reasonably smart mafia group

will

think things through, regardless of any discussion that goes on during the day. Covering all eventualities publically therefore, IMO, is more beneficial to the town than detrimental. Also, no one is (yet) saying that anyone should declare officially what they're going to do tonight. It's just a matter of everyone being aware of the optimum strategies. Capiche?

My 2 cents on general strategy at this point (assuming, where appropriate, that the people in question are town, yadayada):

shaft.ed should motivate investigative roles, or Linderman ... perhaps the person in this grop whom he feels is most protown. This is particularily effective if Oman is scum, since he would then be likely to mess with these roles, and he can only redirect one of the choices of a motivated person.

Giving Adele investigative powers is a good idea, in my mind. As discussed, they certainly can't hurt the town in the wrong hands, and seeing that statistically she is more likely to be town than scum ... why not do it?

JDodge and ckd should above all target someone who has a power that is harmful to the town in the hands of scum; preferrably someone who looks scummy as well. The 'harmful to town' factor applies particularily to ckd, since the person he locks up will be immune from Sylar's kill, thus preventing him from gaining their power.

Regarding this, ckd, how do you feel that the scum guessing beforehand whom you're likely to lock up would be harmful? An obvious answer is that they're likely to kill you (which is basically the 'only' thing they can do to you) if they feel you're becoming a potential threat. Well, to that I can only say that if the scum have roles that they feel you'd be likely to lock up, they'll probably make it a priority to kill you anyway, regardless of what gets said in the thread ... as per what I said above.

[Gorgon]

I think the game will pick-up once we've had a night's worth of abilities under our belts. It's hard for some people to get motivated just about the nuances of various strategies, as opposed to scum-hunting.

QFT. That said, maybe it's time to try to do some scumhunting.

I went back and read what Oman was saying about the possibility of passing his ability on to Adele, and I agree with him that shaft.ed misrepresented him slightly there.

Adele is a key person to dicover the alignment of.

Adele, if you're town I want to target you ASAP. If you're scum, my role in your hands could be very not good.

Doesn't sound that bad, actually. He acknowledges that it would be a very bad idea to give Adele his power if she's scum. And yes, there are possible ways of discovering Adele's alignment ... although I'm not sure how effective they are when it comes down to it. Point is, I don't think there's anything scummy about those comments of Oman's.

I still think it's a bit suspicious that he seems reluctant to give Adele investigative powers purely on the basis that she may be scum, though.

I also went back and skimmed over the game, and I must say I really don't like ckd's vote and subsequent unvote on mathcam.

vote mathcam

"for proposing a strategy for deciding who to vote for"

quite scummy

who proposes a strategy to vote for someone on the fisrt page of voting just based on roles?

to pick a lynch based on a role that could be too powerful if in the hands of scum no matter the alignment versus scum hunting the normal way to find scum?

to pick a lynch based on a role that could be too powerful if in the hands of scum no matter the alignment versus scum hunting the normal way to find scum?

do I really need to answer this question?

what is your plan tomorrow? Lynch the second most powerful role?

I dont mind the idea if we are generating conversation (like a random voting stage), but to lynch Day 1 based on this is crap.

I note that he says twice that he's objecting to mathcam suggesting people

vote

based on the roles, but then ups it to actually lynching, which is neither what matcham was suggesting, nor how ckd originally interpreted it.

well, i dont typically vote for someone unless I think they are scummy, thus would be ok for a lynch....but it sounds like you are only really proposing a conversation starter..

unvote.

Jdodge...now did you mean voting (like mathcam) or lynching?

Then he again acknowledges that matchcam's suggestion was just a conversation starter/voting device ... so which was it? Did ckd think that mathcam was proposing we lynch based on roles, or that he was merely generating conversation/semi-random votes?

Couple this with ckd's vote then downgrade to a FOS on das, and I find ckd to be suspiciously wavering in his accusations. This warrants a vote.

Vote: curiouskarmadog

[Gorgon]

Can the rest of the town please comment on whats going on between zoneace and myself right now.

Yeah sure.

I feel that that your points and questions are valid and do not appear to be based on personal grounds. You're basically just prompting him to comment on what has been discussed so far, and to give his opinion on strategy. Nothing wrong with this.

ZA has been unhelpful in this game, and I don't like his no lynch suggestion. Sure, it's a possible option, but I don't think it's something that should be rushed into at this point. People will die tonight, unless some amazing piece of luck prevents both the mafia and Sylar kill. The first day is needed to gain information on everyone. Just no lynching and letting people die without sufficient info gained on them is A Bad Thing.

I do admit I've been ignoring TSQ. I'm not going to answer his questions about my observcations today because well, it's day one of a day start game where we know EVERYONE'S power, I'd rather not blow my load yet. I think we need a night of activities before we can make a legitimate attempt at locating our resident scums.

As per what I said above, I believe that day 1 discussion is useful, even in this game, seeing that everyone's alive and all. What exactly, in your opinion, is the potential harm in this?

[Gorgon]

Well ckd, what I found most suspicious was you mixing up the terms vote/lynch, but I can see how you could have been thinking 'lynch' while saying 'vote'. The big picture does point to you having first having seen mathcam's idea as a strategy for lynching, and then accepting the fact that he was merely discussing semi-random voting rather than lynching - I'll give you that. I still think this was worthy of questioning, though.

I'm feeling a ZA wagon pretty strongly right now, truth to tell.

Unvote, Vote: ZONEACE

[Gorgon]

You didnt seem to think that a vote on ZA was warrented here, what changed in the past 2 posts?

You may notice that what happened is that you popped in and answered the points I made against you - mostly to my satisfaction. I wasn't about to unvote you while you hadn't even shown up to address what I said when I voted you, was I? Well, I could have, but that's not my style. I'm pretty amazed you failed to make this connection. Also, you throw in the accusation that I was following TSQ, who voted ZA before he made his no lynch post, which is what drove me personally to vote him (and you yourself to FOS him, funnily enough). Not cool.

And let me also emphasise that the 'wavering' part of my accusation mostly applied to you mixing up the terms 'vote' and 'lynch', which suggested to me like you weren't sure what you were accusing mathcam of ... so it was your phrasing that jumped out at me, more than the fact that you voted and then unvoted. Your attempted "NO U" is therefore flawed.

Also, way to accuse me of being scummy for bandwagoning the very guy that you yourself FOS'd - which is an excellent way to cast suspicion on someone without really commiting to anything. Double hypocrite points then go out to attacking someone who actually votes said person. Again, the only reason I didn't switch my vote straight away is that I felt it would be lame to unvote you before you addressed my points against you - I had no idea how you would respond and whether that would be reason enough for me to move my vote. Turns out it was. Anything unclear about this?

[Gorgon]

And oh, another thing.

What happened to this question?

I do admit I've been ignoring TSQ. I'm not going to answer his questions about my observcations today because well, it's day one of a day start game where we know EVERYONE'S power, I'd rather not blow my load yet. I think we need a night of activities before we can make a legitimate attempt at locating our resident scums.

As per what I said above, I believe that day 1 discussion is useful, even in this game, seeing that everyone's alive and all. What exactly, in your opinion, is the potential harm in this?

Answer: That question hasn't been answered yet.

[Gorgon]

please explain to me how wavering means mixing up words.

I already did, kinda - except that wasn't what I was saying. My initial suspicion was based on the assumption that it was not a mixup of words, but a mixup of what exactly you wanted to accuse mathcam of. But fine, I've accepted now that it was probably just a matter of you getting the terms mixed up - this was a big part of the reason I saw fit to move my vote off of you.

you provided two examples of me voting then unvoting and said I was wavering..

why are you backtracking now?

No, actually, I provided one example of you voting and then unvoting, and one example of you voting and downgrading to a FOS. Perhaps I should have explained the latter better. I will do so now, then. Downgrading your vote to a FOS seems a little pointless to me. Why not leave the vote until you find a better candidate for your vote? There's no harm in that. However, downgrading to a FOS could be construed as a way of coming off as a nice, towny guy who doesn't want to offend.

Neither of those were major points against you, dude ... certainly nothing earth-shattering. I voted partly to test the reaction, as one tends to do. For the record, I find that reaction to be extremely defensive and paranoid. Not that that's a scumtell, necessarily. In fact, you were very defensive and paranoid in both of the games I've played with you so far, and you were town in both.

I FoSed ZA because I think he is being slightly scummy and if there was a choice between a no lynch and voting ZA he will get my vote.

Fair enough, I guess.

so my FoS on Za was enough for you to vote him? ZA voted for a no lynch way before you voted me...so this makes

that is not correct...ZA voted for a no lynch AFTER you voted me....

No, his no lynch vote was enough for me to vote him, and yes, it happened after I voted you. As I already explained, the reason why I didn't vote him straight away was that I was waiting on you to react to my vote first. Again I ask, was that unreasonable/scummy of me?

I am curious why you didnt FoS or address ZA's no lynch until now

Now? As in back in post 235, my very first post after ZA voted no lynch?

you make it sound like im trying to end the day in the next half hour.

which isn't the case.

i voted no lynch cause thats what i feel is the best choice for today.

Well, judging from what I quoted of yours in my last post, it looks like you were saying that you didn't want to contribute much to the discussion today, which pretty much boils down to you wanting a no lynch without any further ado. Amirite?

And there you have the main reason why my vote is on you.

[Gorgon]

Hold on though ...

But I will state up front I am reluctant to lynch Zoneace today simply based on his role. Stringing up a known tracker D1 would be a big gain for scum if he is in fact town aligned.

This is actually a very good point. ZA's role could also explain why he's reluctant to express his suspicions. Then again ... what if he's scum using his role as a cover? Ugh. Smalltown certainly is different.

I still believe, regardless of people's roles, that a decent amount of day 1 discussion is vital, though.

[Gorgon]

I kinda agree with ZA here. He makes a good point. There's plenty of info out there already that can be applied tomorrow, in addition to the results of night actions.

I'm going to parrot shaft.ed and dig up some old Smalltown games myself to see how the issue of the day 1 lynch has been resolved in those.

Nice analysis of the roles from shaft.ed, btw. It seems pretty spot-on.

One issue that springs to mind, though, is the possibility of ckd locking up the investigative roles if he's scum. I'm not so sure that's a viable option for him. I don't know if this has been discussed, but I guess that the people he locks up are informed of this - at least that would fit the flavour. If he goes around locking up protown roles, he will need to answer to that, and I don't think that "I was doing it to protect them" would be a viable defense, since there's a doctor out there who could do a better job of it, without crippling their powers.

[Gorgon]

noted:
Gorgon agrees with ZA, but keeps vote on him.

I usually don't unvote unless I fear a premature lynch. Also, there is no one I wish to vote for right now in place of ZA, so I'm keeping my vote for now. I have absolutely no worries about leaving someone at 2 votes, especially since the current trend in this game (for some reason) seems to be to FOS instead of voting. I admit that my suspicion of ZA has lessened, though.

noted:
Gorgon is passive aggressively telling me who I should target and who I shouldnt target. Dont worry, most likely I will not use my "power" to protect..as you say we have doctor for that...I am going to target who i think is scum...if you have a problem with that...maybe you need to "answer for that"...

What, so you're saying that me saying it would be a bad idea for you to target investigative roles is bad? I don't think there was anything passive aggressive about it, either. I wasn't talking to you ... merely disagreeing with shaft.ed that targeting investigative roles would be a potentially viable strategy for you as scum. Also, I believe we've gone over this before; general discussion of optimal strategy and the application of roles is not telling you what to do.

Btw, no, I don't have much of a problem with you locking up someone you think is scum (this is assuming you're town), except that would only be your guess - it would only really be effective if you happened to pick the scum who does the NK, so you'd not only have to guess the scum, but also the NK'er ... or pick Sylar, of course. All this really boils down to your own personal scumdar. However, powers are something that you have solid information about right now, and I can't help but think that this should influence your choice somewhat. DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT TELLING YOU WHAT TO DO; I'M OFFERING YOU ADVICE, OK?

[Gorgon]

OK - am I correct in assuming that there has only been one real smalltown game here before?

Looking for a games with Smalltown in their title, I could only find something that's called Smalltown 2: Scrubs Mafia (Coney Island) and another game called just Smalltwon Mafia (Little Italy). Scrubs was a genuine smalltown game, but the other one was just a standard themeless mini. Also, Scrubs was a night start game, and three people got killed that night. It therefore doesn't compare with this one, as there was plenty to go on at the start of the first day.

Am I missing something here?

[Gorgon]

Well, I said I was going to check out older smalltown games to see how the first day went, seeing that some people (Read: ZA) lean towards a no lynch today ... but that's all I could come up with. If there was an older daystart smalltown game, this would probably have been discussed and resolved back then - but it looks like there isn't.

[Gorgon]

Thanks a bunch, Seol.

That first game was also a night start, so also not that comparable to this one with respect to the information available day one.

[Gorgon]

Hmm ... I'm not seeing shaft.ed as scummy at all. Even this response of his to TSQ's vote seems very townish.

Why did you vote him, TSQ?

[Gorgon]

Well, LAL is a controversial policy, I guess. I can point to a game of mine (SPAG's Speed Mafia) where it pretty much led to a town loss. Basically, a townie false-claimed tracker and then withdrew his claim. Even though he had no real reason to withdraw his claim as scum, he got lynched in the end. It's a little more complicated than this, though, but a no holds barred LAL policy would definitely have caused the town to lose that one.

Anyway, what Adele is proposing is that people make a commitment not to lie, on pain of being lynched. This is different from a regular LAL policy, since it's a contract that people agree with beforehand ... "If I lie, you can lynch me". It doesn't even have to be something that everyone commits to; if someone wants to leave the option of lying open, they can just say so right now.

For what it's worth, I myself can easily commit to not lying, since I don't have anything to lie about. I plan to just not disclose when I phase out, so no lies are necessary. I'm sure you will agree that this is the best way for me to use my power (Just want to be sure everyone agrees with this).

Speaking of LAL, the last L can also stand for Lurker. This reminds me that we have a pretty major lurker in this game; Zindaras. He has contributed

nothing

to this game so far. People shouldn't get away with this kind of behaviour. Something needs to be done about this.

Btw, I get why TSQ voted shaft.ed, and figured that was the reason before I asked him - tunneling on Oman. However, I also buy shaft.ed's explanation and find him to be consistent in his push against Oman. Oman's reaction to this so far certainly does nothing to make me happy about him.

Regarding ckd, I get his viewpoint. No one should get a completely free pass, regardless of role. Thing is, what's difficult here is that it's hard to be sure of anyone's alignment, especially D1. Hence the tendency to allow roles to influence our choices, which is the only solid information we have on the first day. For instance, shaft.ed's argument of letting the investigative roles live through the first night, as even if they're scum, they can only be useful against each other, makes sense to me.

[Gorgon]

Wow - you guys sure have been busy. There's way more content over these pages that have accumulated since the last time I posted for me to comment on in full with the time I have available right now, but I will say this ...

I am liking ZA less and less now. I've only played in one game with him, which is unfortunately still ongoing, and I don't really remember the old games where I've seen him appear, so I don't have good meta on him, but still ... scummy is scummy. I will meta when I have the time though, especially since ckd has reason to believe that his own meta on ZA mitigates his behaviour. Regarding TSQ's 'trap', it looks convincing enough - TSQ demonstrated that ZA was indeed not acting in a very protown manner - but whether that's due to ZA being scum, or just his personality/antagonism towards TSQ/whatever cannot, of course, be said with certaintly. All this is complicated by his role, which I am loath to throw away on the first day, but looking at things objectively, he really is not doing much to provide further reasons than his role for keeping him alive today, sad to say. His 469 is basically just one big appeal to emotion and his useful role.

My meta on ckd is slightly better, but I need meta where he is scum to be sure. Yet again, I lack the time right now. That said, I'm still leaning towards town on him - his aggressive attitude seems very consistent with his behaviour in the games I've been in with him before.

Oman ... neutral read bordering on scummy. Putting Zindaras up as a prime lynching candidate instead of just asking to have him replaced was pretty dubious.

Townish looking people: Adele, shaft.ed, TSQ, mathcam.

Others I have no comments on right now.

[Gorgon]

Yeah well - that's what I get for not reading the thread thoroughly. I just noted the fact that you put Zindaras down as a lynch candidate, but didn't notice that you backed out of that. Should have put a disclaimer in that post.

I'll be glad when Christmas is over in that it's sucked too much time away from important things like mafia.

[Gorgon]

I'm pretty confused by Adele's post myself.

Adele, what do you mean by 'judging on less qualitative matters?'

[Gorgon]

Yikes. Deadline. Sorry for the lack of activity - real life sucks.

Thoughts at this point ...

ZA is to me a cointoss at this point. There's a few indications that he's been less than helpful at times, and he's certainly testy ... but scummy? Not overly so, to be honest - especially considering his character and all.

Oman has said a few worrying things, and his no lynch now could be a cop-out, but it looks to me like he is being honest about it ... call that a gut feeling. In general, he gives off an honest vibe, worrying as he has been at times. He's pretty much a coinflip ... as is ZA, I'm far from convinced of his scumminess. However, the cold fact is that his role is much less useful than ZA's - plus there are indeed some pretty solid points against him. It's just that my gut only says 'maybe'. But maybe 'maybe' is just as good as it gets.

I did some meta on ckd and found that he can actually be a little aggressive and defends himself well as scum, but I think I do note a difference; ckd is more 'paranoid' as town, as I believe I've mentioned before. By this I mean that he's quick to jump over people whom he sees as having unjustified suspicions about him - what can be called the "I'm innocent so how dare you accuse me with such bad logic; you must be scum" stance. I get this vibe from him in this game.

The Fonz made a good entrance to this game. I had a few minor concerns about das, but they have all but evaporated with the replacement.

cicero still hasn't posted content, which is a shame seeing he replaced a practically dead player, and also because he's usually a prolific poster and a good, fun player overall. However, I easily understand that it takes time to read this game properly.

Not really seeing the case against shaft.ed ...

My thoughts on everyone else remain pretty much the same.

So ... I'm leaning towards either Oman or no lynch right now. ZA is somewhat of a possibility, but I feel his role is a point in his favour. In general, there are too many people in this game, IMO, that look all too town. It's a tough call, and I'm not convinced that the two players who objectively look most like potential scum (Oman and ZA) are actually scum - not least because they only look scummy in comparison with all the others. However, if not them, I'm hard pressed to name anyone else. It must be said that I generally don't like the idea of a no lynch, though.

Unvote

while I think about this some more.

[Gorgon]

Man - I just saw TSQ latest post. Completely forgot about JDodge. He's fallen off the radar here while remaining active in other games.

I did a reread on him and must say I see something of a merit in his lynch. He has been pretty confrontational, especially where ZA is concerned. What I especially dislike about JDodge in this game is that he's always on the offensive - never coming to anyone's defense or mitigating anything - just constantly stirring things up. This to me is scummy. However, I'm not sure I feel he's posted enough to really go on.

Guy should have been prodded a long time ago. If he's fallen too far behind in this game, he should be replaced ASAP.

[Gorgon]

Why is it a cop out when Oman suggests it, but it is not a cop out when you do?

Context, context ... it might be of relevance to note that Oman didn't suggest a no lynch,

he voted for it

. He also pretty much shrugged the whole thing off with a single short sentence, and it looks like this might just be it for him today. It had a bit of a ring of finality to it. I would have no problem with people calling it a potential cop-out if I actually end up voting no lynch, but at least I won't do it without commenting thoroughly on the game and have reached the point where I am definitely not willing to lynch anyone. I also said I think Oman's no lynch

could be a cop-out

(not that it actually is one), while stating that my gut tells me that looked more like an honest move on his part ... meaning that he did reach the point of actually deciding that he really couldn't find a lynch candidate. The question, to me, is whether he was being honest (and therefore town), or copping out (and therefore scum). I don't know for sure which it is, but my gut leans towards the former. Please show me the respect of not putting words into my mouth.

You don’t think that ZA and Oman who look scum (in comparison) are actually scum, but you just had your vote on ZA and you are leaning toward Oman.

I never said that I don't think they are actually scum. How the f*ck you can interpret my post that way is a complete mystery to me. What I did say is that I'm not convinced that they are scum, even though they are the scummiest looking ones in this game, relatively speaking. That's where my whole problem lies - I'm not entirely sold on either one of them, but I find it hard to come up with alternatives. If I vote anyone, it will probably be one of those at this point, for clear reasons, but I will still have reservations, especially about ZA, due to his role. All this should be perfectly clear from my post. I'm being honest about my thoughts here. Again, you're putting words into my mouth ... making it seem like I'm pushing for the lynching of people I don't think are scum. F*cking insulting, if you ask me.

Gorgon, in your view, why do Oman and ZA look scummy?

*Sigh*

Very well, if it helps ... here's the gist of it, from where I stand ...

Oman: His argument that giving investigative powers to Adele would be bad if she's scum because we'd trust her was pretty dubious. Stated that shaft.ed was voting him based solely on his role, which was a bit of an overstatement, IMO. Possibly got on the ZA wagon to save himself - an especially troubling move since he later forgot about that vote, which suggests he got on the wagon pretty half-heartedly. His latest no lynch vote

could be

a cop-out.

ZA: Argumentative and unhelpful at times. Voted no lynch very early. He did explain his reasons for this, but they don't read right to me ... he was pretty set against any discussion or pressuring day 1, arguing it would be useless, which I feel would have been detrimental to the town. Even in the event that there will be a no lynch, there's now a lot of information to go on day 2. This would not have happened if everyone had just followed ZA's cue and voted no lynch. Didn't respond very well to TSQ's attack on him, IMO; his defense was pretty much centered around appeal to emotion and that it would be such a shame to lynch the tracker.

Now return the favour by stating your full case against me, convinced as you are of my scumminess. I don't like dubious accusations and misrepresentations any more than you do.

A complete case against shaft.ed would be good too, while you're at it.

Also, I would like to hear your thoughts on Oman. You've chipped in your opinion that you don't think ZA is the lynch, but you remain silent on Oman, who is in more danger of being lynched.

[Gorgon]

Gorgon and CKD, it's not like either of you to just suddenly cease an argument that is that heated, where'd you go?

Well, I don't have much else to say to ckd until he chimes in again. Looks like he has posting issues, so let's hope he can post soon.

I'm buying what cicero is selling. Oman's power is not helpful to the town, and is very tempting for Sylar to take and wreak havoc with, i.e. if Oman isn't Sylar. I do feel that his 'lynch Oman on general principles' stance is a little over the top, but he does support this stance well. I don't think this is something that cicero would gamble on, just to get Oman out of the game. In short, cicero looks sincere in his intentions.

I'm now convinced that Oman is the best lynch at this point.

Btw, I have every reason to believe cicero's rhetoric that he has trouble finding scum Day 1, since my last game with him (Mini 499) is a good example of this - I was scum there, but he was convinced I was town all through D1. Anyway, cicero is posting good stuff in this game so far ... plus, he has a point when he says that finding scum D1 is generally a tough task.

There's just one thing though:

First - on probability alone there is a 25% to 33% chance that he is scum.

I thought there were definitely four scum in this game - 3 mafia, 1 Sylar ... which makes for a 33% chance of any given player being scum, no matter what.

P.S. What's Oman at now? L-1? Close to that?

[Gorgon]

Well, things don't look to good for me. Of course, I'm not Sylar, although I guess there's not much that I can say to absolutely convince anyone of this.

Since I might well get lynched due to the unfortunate circumstances, I might as well tell you that I got no notice of being targeted by either ckd or DBG - so for future reference, it doesn't seem like one is made aware of being targeted by these powers.

I won't reveal whether I tried to phase out or not, as I don't see how this information would be useful to anyone.

One question for DBG - why target me? Seems to me from the ordering of powers, my phasing out would mean that I can't be targeted by you anyway; my power has top priority. Anyway, I don't see many benefits of nullifying my power.

As for your analysis ...

Here Gorgon seems to be acutely aware of notions like being tracked or not, detering players from targetting him at night, SURVIVAL is the extent of his usefulness... I find that post, alone and in itself, a MEGA SK tell.

Survival is the extent of the usefulness of my role. Forgive me for saying this out loud ...

In his post #6, Gorgon votes CKD. Interesting choice: CKD is one role that can definitely prevent him from nightkilling. Reason given: "wavering in his accusations." Pretty weak reason.

I explained the exact reason both in the post where I voted, and after. You're just simplifying things.

Then he votes Zoneace, and stays on this aborted wagon for a long long time.

And?

Meanwhile he continues to go after CKD. Doesn't vote for CKD again. Very focused and tunnel-visioned on CKD.

The guy went after me. I had dropped the case of him and was calling him likely town well before the end of the day. Misrepresent much?

Then he comes in sporadically with excuses for inactivity.

I've been very, very busy in RL, as can be seen by my posting history in general.

In his last post, Jan 11, Gorgon approves of the Oman lynch without much explanation, and without having expressed much prior suspicion of Oman beforehand. Like, you know, whatever wagon, he approves.

I had already explained before then why I was leaning more towards Oman in the end - the nature of Oman's role, as argued by cicero.

I expressed doubts about an Oman or ZA lynch often throughout the day; I believe I explained my attitude towards them quite well, and was open with my thoughts. The guys both turned up town. Now I'm suddenly being presented as a guy who didn't care who got lynched. Bah.

[Gorgon]

Well, I'm here. I'm dismayed that shaft.ed calls my response to DBG's analysis 'overdefensiveness'. I'm sure people will appreciate that I'm in a precarious position, and therefore don't like spurious attacks on me. I'm also almost insulted by the fact that shaft.ed saw no reason to address DGB's analysis, nor my response, as such - the only thing that seems to matter is that she threw accusations against me, and I defended myself. Bah.

Anyway ...

TSQ has been climbing up my scum list. He hasn't been that active today, and might easily be using his attitude towards DBG as a front (the same way he might have been using ZA). Also, I realise that this might be unfair, but the fact that ZA turned up town somewhat undermines TSQ's credibility.

Yvonne is also interesting. I actually do like DBG's case against her. Also, I note that the only guy she ever voted for was Oman, right at the bat - a random vote. What's up with that? Apart from this, she threw out only one FOS. Hardly evidence of persistent scumhunting.

She does explain this here though:

I don't find anyone particularly scummy. My vote on Oman starts all the way back from the random stage but only because there is no one else that needs my vote more. I guess it's probably gonna be Oman or No Lynch for me.

Going by instinct however, I've a generally bad feeling about Adele. Can't really explain it, it's been like this since early D1.

I don't like this though. If her instinct told her 'Adele', why not vote her? She gives absolutely no valid reason for keeping her vote on Oman.

[Gorgon]

Except I'm not attacking DGB, Gorgon, I am voting YOU, which severely undermines the effectiveness of that point.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. I didn't mean you were using your personal opinion towards DGB as a front for attacking her. What I meant by 'a front' was that it might be providing you with a front for not giving this game your full attention.

[Gorgon]

Bah. Poor phrasing yet again. I'll try to explain better.

You're probably referring to your epic post about ZA, TSQ, which wasn't exactly at the end of yesterday, but whatever ...

I'm talking about what you seem to be doing now - complaining about DBG's play while putting in one-liners yourself. You haven't done much active scumhunting today, just got on board with lynching me. This is not OMGUS, and neither do I think that the statistical case against me isn't valid, but this is the feel that I have for your play today - less committal and more passive than yesterday.

Your being wrong about ZA yesterday notwithstanding, your play back then was pretty solid. It seems to be less solid today. I can buy that there may be a number of reasons for this, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't get called for it.

[Gorgon]

NO, I was referring to the one where I listed every single player in the game and what I felt about them. it's post 85 in view all. are you reading this game at all?

That's the one I meant. But you did make me look dumb by correcting what I said about the content of that post. I didn't reread all of it; not even close. I just noted it started off talking about ZA. However, I note that this post is on page 18, while the day ended on page 26 ...

You know what? This is a stupid line of thought. I admit it. It was just a quick thought that popped up in my head.

It's quite true that DGB is pretty much the only one that's all that active today.

I'll find another line of inquiry.

[Gorgon]

Huh? It's over? Well played, mafia. I've been watching somewhat from the sidelines, but obviously with some disinterest since I had nothing riding on the outcome.

And thanks a lot for depriving me of the opportunity of making a Sylar kill, ckd you bastard.

Nah seriously, you played a good game and nailed me right and proper.

Seol, I did send in a nightkill (ckd), but I guess this was after you had received everything else. Not that it matters of course.