Mini 496 - Wild West Mafia. Mod Abandoned

[Paradoxombie]

1.) This game is a no

kill

night start. The game will start from now, please confirm by PM, daytime will commence hopefully in 48 hours with everyone confirmed.

It clearly specifies that this is was no KILL night. Seems likely that a cop could still have an action even if they didn't write the note.

I think the best overall action to take with the note is to ignore it until tommorow. If we get another one then we look at what both notes say and compare them for truth.

random vote: pdcakes

[Paradoxombie]

I think it goes without saying, but

FOS: twomz

for having a pro-No-Lynch stance.

[Paradoxombie]

I see some significance to the fact that Twomz was not bandwagoned for suggesting a No-Lynch. I'd think any decent scum would jump on that instantly. Although I suppose the fact that there wasn't much of a bandwagon to jump on might've contributed to scum's decision not to go for it, it is also possible that it's because Twomz is scum himself. He's said it himself that he's been lynched in other games for his pro-no-lynch stance where he was townie, what makes this game different? I think overall it's a pretty solid tell.
I think I'll upgrade my FoS, but I don't plan to vote on just this.

HoS: Twomz

[Paradoxombie]

Facing up, but tilted forward, I'd say. Fingers spread.

[Paradoxombie]

I see some significance to the fact that Twomz was not bandwagoned for suggesting a No-Lynch. I'd think any decent scum would jump on that instantly. Although I suppose the fact that there wasn't much of a bandwagon to jump on might've contributed to scum's decision not to go for it, it is also possible that it's because Twomz is scum himself. He's said it himself that he's been lynched in other games for his pro-no-lynch stance where he was townie, what makes this game different? I think overall it's a pretty solid tell.
I think I'll upgrade my FoS, but I don't plan to vote on just this.

HoS: Twomz

Actually, if he does it in all games, it isn't a tell at all.

When I said I felt it was a pretty solid tell, it was in relation to the lack of any significant backlash to Twomz suggesting a no-lynch.

[Paradoxombie]

Either the scum thought that would be too small of a wagon to actually get away unnoticed, or that you are scum, so the scum knew not to jump on you.

Or

the scum decided not to jump on him so that he'd appear scummy for the reasons covered. If you follow. My point is that the whole thing's vulnerable to wifom.

Well I'm not sure of the odds, but every single time I've seen someone suggest a No-Lynch(and that's not too many time of course) there was a significantly bigger deal of it made than this. And even though I don't think it would've been right to bandwagon over it, I think scum being on that anti-No-Lynch wagon is one of the things that makes it so predictable, perhaps. And the fact that there isn't any bandwagon says three possibilities to me:
1. Mafiascum is a progressive place with changing ideas and concepts and this situation expemplifies it.
2. Scum are progressive with changing ideas and concepts as GoW suggested.
3.Twomz is scum.

Based on previous experience I don't think scum could orchestrate somthin like this unless I was scum because I don't think they could expect some random townie to bring it up. But even if so that fits under #2 that scum have surpassed what I think most people would expect. Overall I don't think it's WIFOM or a nulltell, because, to me, at least, not all three possiblities are equally likely. I'd call it a jigsaw piece really. Not that big of a deal. But with so little to go on, like atm, I usually increase my reaction at least a little bit.

SirWario has some valid criticism.

[Paradoxombie]

I guess the difference from other games I have been in versus this one where the no lynch suggestion was brought up, was how it was brought up.

I agree that that is a possiblity, but....

Usually people just state "I think we should no lynch" or " I support a no lynch"...this was just an option of several..more alarms would have gone off if people really started pushing a no lynch.

I disagree that this is probably the difference. Because situations where the bandwagons start are usually NOT so different from this, at least in my expirience.

Anyway, this seems like a deadend conversation, so let's not dwell on it as our sole means of conversation.

[Paradoxombie]

EBWOP:

Anyway, this seems like a deadend

argument

, so let's not dwell on it as our sole means of conversation.

I hate using the same word twice in one sentance.

[Paradoxombie]

I'm not sure how your suggestions point to Twomz being scum, Paradox.

Because one thing that could reduce the possibility of any bandwagon on twomz is that no opportunistic scum want to go after him(i.e. if they were his buddy).

[Paradoxombie]

I'm not sure how your suggestions point to Twomz being scum, Paradox.

Because one thing that could reduce the possibility of any bandwagon on twomz is that no opportunistic scum want to go after him(i.e. if they were his buddy).

I don't really see how this makes a difference. Lots of people actually criticised Twomz, but no one really voted for it.

I don't think this points towards Twomz being scum at all. Remember, if Twomz is scum, there are still likely to be another 2 opportunistic scum (assuming there are 3 scum), compared to 3 opportunistic scum. It's not really that big a difference.

But it's not that there's less scum TO bandwagon, it's that they have no reason to bother AT ALL if it's one of their buddies

[Paradoxombie]

I wouldn't be so quick to say that para... there is such a thing as "bussing" or "distancing." If it would help give a mafiaso an almost clear ride to the endgame... why not sacrifice one of your buddies? And if the lynch doesn't go through, and somehow the person who was attacked on Day 1 gets NKed and is shown as scum, the scum buddies would have a very nice "I told you so" to sit back on to help them stay off others scumdars.

But it's not likely.

[Paradoxombie]

I wouldn't be so quick to say that para... there is such a thing as "bussing" or "distancing." If it would help give a mafiaso an almost clear ride to the endgame... why not sacrifice one of your buddies? And if the lynch doesn't go through, and somehow the person who was attacked on Day 1 gets NKed and is shown as scum, the scum buddies would have a very nice "I told you so" to sit back on to help them stay off others scumdars.

But it's not likely.

Why not? Are you suggesting scum want to join every single thing they think could be a bandwagon? If so, that's a horribly stupid tactic for them.

When I'm scum I usually make some kind of effort to bandwagon other people more than my scumbuddies. I don't think that's so stupid and I think scum's relationship with their buddies is a more reliable tell than someone just changing their mind. Rant time.

I do agree that pdcakes' change of opinion about Adam is incredibly suspect, as is his now OMGUS suspicion of Twomz.

Do you really think people changing their mind is automatically scummy? It happens. And you don't even have an explanation for why it would benefit scum to have the stance pd changed to, that is, you don't know if adam is actually town. Aditionally you guys make a big deal about OMGUS but, seriously, haven't you ever noticed that when someone is attacking you it looks alot worse to you than to everyone else. It practically always looks like their twisting words or warping what you said. Explanation: You know what you thought, but the person only knows what you wrote. And you guys attack him for bring it up for so long when he was jsut trying to explain himself to people who were directly questioning him. So there, I think your suspcion has an even worse foundation than mine, but because mine requires thought and explanation you guys dismiss it(*cough*SirWario*cough*).

Twomz himself advocated thinking outside the box and but because my idea requires seeing what didn't happen instead of what did you guys think it's somehow worse than common tells. Your argument against mine is that scum and this game in general are so unpredictable and yet you rely on %100 tired predictability to find scum. If anything is going to lose us the game, it's sticking to convention. Even if this was the scum's first game as scum they still know exactly what to do from playing as town. Seriously I'm not trying to run a crusade against Twomz here, but everyone suddenly wants to explain away my suspicion with alternate possiblities, well now I've done it for yours as well, does that make it a Null Tell? If you haven't noticed we don't have much to go on, atm. In conclusion,

Fos: Twomz and Pdcakes

if only because there's nothing else happening.

[Paradoxombie]

Yeah my bad about that bottom quote, but it doesn't really matter that it's from Aimee because I'm mostly responding to the general opinion which several players have.

[Paradoxombie]

In conclusion,

Fos: Twomz and Pdcakes

if only because there's nothing else happening.

Didn't you just spend an entire paragraph defending pdcakes' behaviour? Why are you therefore FoSing him?

I was just trying make a point by showing how every suspicion is really circumstancial. Just because a tell has alternate explanation doesn't mean that you have to dismiss it entirely.

[Paradoxombie]

ah, I totally forgot I'm still voting pdcakes at random!

Unvote

[Paradoxombie]

I have been totally open about my psuedo-suspicions so far. And I don't think there's any point in ranking them. I don't really think listing suspicions is a great idea, but the game definitely does need so momentum. I would like to hear if anyone has any new thoughts or ideas. And if anyone has any serious suspicions, I say be bold and vote.

[Paradoxombie]

Paradoxombie: Are you saying you won't list your suspects than?

Not really, I just don't have any new supicions to list.

I do not think we should force people to make a list, but if para is not going to do his, he should at least name another player.

Why should I feel motivated to pass this burdenless burden if I think it's a bad idea?

Well I'm not sure of the odds, but every single time I've seen someone suggest a No-Lynch(and that's not too many time of course) there was a significantly bigger deal of it made than this.

I know you said it's not many, but where have you seen it before?

Well I don't remember the specific games anymore, but I think I've seen somthing happen along the lines I described at least 2 or 3 times out of the dozen or so games I've been in. I considered this game this exception. Why? Do you think the opposite?

[Paradoxombie]

Also, Paradox, I don't see a major

disadvantage

in giving a scum-list. I mean, what is the problem with doing it.

Well I assume the advantage is that we can catch scum in changing their suspicions, which is unhelpful since scum never really need to change their suspicions, while town do. Then it also helps scum choose their nightkill, find powerroles, and form effective bandwagons and mislynches.

I think it's better than the game stagnating, but not by much.

[Paradoxombie]

My parts are in bold

The main thing I like about it is the fact that it flat out forces every player to sit down and seriously question their thoughts about each player in the game. Maybe it's just me seeing myself in others, but I reckon people will err on the side of not doing something if they believe they are already doing enough (despite the fact the thing they

are

doing is the wrong thing), if you're with me. Being forced by a model like this to organize your thoughts and back up your opinions in a way you really feel like you can stand behind is a good thing, I think.

I agree with this.

I don't think it's a bad point either

It's also good because later you can connect people together due to their responses. It makes things clearer, which is always a benefit.

Well I assume the advantage is that we can catch scum in changing their suspicions, which is unhelpful since scum never really need to change their suspicions, while town do.

I unequivocally disagree with this. How can you say scum don't change their suspicions but town do. If it's that simple, then all we would need to do is ask for scum lists, and find out which ones had changed, and then we would have found the scum.

I didn't say they "don't", I said they "don't have to." Town players need to be able to change suspicions, since they usually start semi-random, while scum never "need" to do anything but avoid suspicion. If not changing their opinion avoids suspicions, then I'm sure scum will be able to do it better than town, whose suspicions are real

I don't like how one-dimensionally you assume Mafia to be.

I'm the one here who's willing to accept both sides of the argument, here.

Then it also helps scum choose their nightkill, find powerroles, and form effective bandwagons and mislynches.

This is absurd. You could quite as easily say it gives the town the

direction

to continue.

How? So you can know who's most suspected and target them?

I'm at a loss conceptualising how it can be argued that scum can do all this from just a scum list.

Their nightkill will be the least suspected players, their bandwagons will be on the most suspected players. They'll find powerroles by looking for people will unusual suspicions(players who don't suspect a highly suspected players without great reasoning could be a cop or Mason or doctor after a failed nighkill, it works just like we'd find scum from their lists.)

Try again?

I really don't care much whether I convince you or not. My suspicions are all out in the open already, anyway.

[Paradoxombie]

I'm very angry that I said "here" twice in one sentance.

[Paradoxombie]

In conclusion,

Fos: Twomz and Pdcakes

if only because there's nothing else happening.

[Paradoxombie]

Fair point, but what I was trying to say is that the advantages it gives the town are

greater

than the advantages it gives the scum. Do you agree with this?

I assume this is your response, and my answer is no.

[Paradoxombie]

I'm going to guess that GoW was looking at your final post on the previous page, because he forgot there was another page.

[Paradoxombie]

I don't see anything comment worthy in the ryan/ckd interchange.

[Paradoxombie]

Vote: Twomz

[Paradoxombie]

Vote: Twomz

Reasoning?

The game is too slow.

[Paradoxombie]

Vote: Twomz

Reasoning?

The game is too slow.

That is the first vote on him, how do you expect that to speed up the game?

FoS: Paradoxombie

Well, it's resulted in 5 new posts in under 20 minutes.

[Paradoxombie]

And nothing to do with Townz except for this exchange.

I assume you mean Twomz, but I don't see what difference that makes. Would you perfer the game to completely halt until deadline? It's not hard to believe that you would, considering you average 14 posts per day, but the only recent input you have in this game are fairly content-less responses. Yet you feel the need to criticize the productivity of my posting?

Fos: Ryan

[Paradoxombie]

I really dislike the whole paradoxombie voting twomz thing. We have been discussing things, we are no longer in the random voting stage, and paradox just... votes twomz?

While I admit there have been a decent number of posts, I haven't seen anything of interest to me in quite a while. And my vote on Twomz isn't random.

[Paradoxombie]

Um... paradox, you said your reasoning for voting him was because things were too slow. That is not a reason so much as an excuse. A reason would be like, cuz I think he is scummy. Just a vote because things are slow is kinda random...

The reason I voted was because the game was slow. The reason I voted Twomz specifically is because I have some suspicion of him.

[Paradoxombie]

I don't like how loosely Thin_Man is willing to lynch pretty much anybody especially combined with his refusal to give reasoning. I also don't like this boarderline role fishing by asking for early claims.

FOS

[Paradoxombie]

My parts are bold

I think Twomz, SirWario and Simenon (though Adam moreso) are all exceptionally likely to be town and I would not lynch them. I feel more strongly than pdcakes is town than i do about him being scum, but I will admit I can't put him in the above group (if you care about percentages, about 70%). I would not even think about lynching anyone who isn't you , Adele, Kabenon or Ryan today. I want to lynch Adele or Kabenon. I do not especially want to lynch either you or Ryan, but I think it unlikely that anyone is going to come round to my way of thinking this late in the day and actually get off their asses and vote the truly scummy people. I'm not going to sit there and let my vote sit useless, though, as that's pointless. I consider you the best choice out the realistic options at this point.

I see little reason to believe you aren't just splicing general town concensuses with false suspicions that would be in your interest.

Your point against my refusal to give reasoning is bullshit, for reasons previously explained.

Well having incomprehensible and wide suspicions is suspicious to me, and it would be less so if you gave reasons

And as for the third point, you'd feel pretty stupid if, two hours from lynch deadline, pdcakes claimed cop, then the get on during that hour you actually had a chance to save your ass. So then we lynch you, our doctor. We've just utterly screwed ourselves thanks not really to bad scumreading, just the fact that the cop claimed a day later than he should have done. I'm not asking trying to rip claims away town, by some miracle, manages to get off him in those two hours onto our second choice, which is you. Unfortunately, you didn't manage tofrom people, but if you've got a claim that can save you from lynch, you should really use it early, just so you don't cost the town a good lynch for the day.

I understood the logic; it doesn't change the fact that in some circumstances it may benefit scum moreso than town

[Paradoxombie]

I see little reason to believe you aren't just splicing general town concensuses with false suspicions that would be in your interest.

But do you see any reason to believe I

am

doing it? Because if you're just assuming the worst about me for no apparent reason, then you're bound to have a bad opinion about me, and it really isn't worth my time to fight that kind of unbiased prejudice.

I'm only telling you that you have failed to reduce my suspicion, which I assume you were trying to do since it seemed like the paragraph was in response to me.

Well having incomprehensible and wide suspicions is suspicious to me, and it would be less so if you gave reasons

It really shouldn't be. I already provided you with an example of a game where I did exactly this same thing as a dead townie, and in both there and here I've stated it as a conscious playstyle choice. To my mind, whilst I haven't proven I do it as scum, I have definitely proven I do it as town. for you to drag it out as a point against me, completely ignoring what should be the most major factor in the opinion making process is at worst exceptionally lazy, and at most rather scummy.

You're totally willing to lynch 4 people today, and I haven't the slightest idea why for the 2 you actually want to lynch. The two things I imagine scum would be interested in at this point are coordinating with buddies and establishing the false suspicions of the people you are interested in lynching. The way in which you posted seemed to lend itself to that. I don't see how I've dragged this out any further than you have.

I understood the logic; it doesn't change the fact that in some circumstances it may benefit scum moreso than town

Do you think this is one of those circumstances? Cause if you're just hypothetically posing situations as to how I

could

be scum without thinking as to whether its likely, that's at best really pointless, and at worst an active attempt to turn irrelevant statements into points against me.

I don't think I'm a good enough player to make that judgement call, but I do think it'd be better to be safe than sorry. I think it's better than a vibe and I'm not trying to convince anyone, atm.

[Paradoxombie]

Thin_man I find it annoying that you blame me for dragging this out when you continue ramble and repeat yourself. You try to justify your suspicions without explaining them and that does nothing for me as I immediately pointed out. I haven't voted you as you claimed and I haven't tried to convince anyone of anything except that I authentically suspect you, a favor you have not returned. Whether or not I accurately explained the reason for my opinion in my original post on the subject is somewhat irrelevant considering I believe I have made myself clear by now.

So you can't decide whether I'm scum or not, so you're going to vote me because I could theoretically be scum? Thats an utterly bullshit opinion, and would lead to town failure in very game if implemented, so I don't get why you're implementing it here.

If being willing to vote someone means that you've decided they're scum, then you must think you've already found them all, since you're now willing to vote and lynch 4 players. A little presumptuous, imo.

[Paradoxombie]

I never accused you of dragging this out. I'm accusing you of having bad opinions.

for you to drag it out as a point against me, completely ignoring what should be the most major factor in the opinion making process is at worst exceptionally lazy, and at most rather scummy

You were trying to imply that I was suspicious for something, and then when I challenged it, you backpedalled, saying that what I did

could

maybe possibly be scummy but you ain't got the brains to or temperament to bother trying to figure out whether it is or not, which begs the question of why you even bothered saying this irrelevant point in the first place.

I think it's totally relevant that somthing you said may benefit scum in certain situations. Especially in a non-normal game where many unexpected situations are possible. I doubt anyone would take my word for it if I am as wrong as you say, anyway.

If being willing to vote someone means that you've decided they're scum, then you must think you've already found them all, since you're now willing to vote and lynch 4 players. A little presumptuous, imo.

But being willing to vote someone does not mean you think them scum. It means you think them more likely scum than all other available options. I certainly don't believe that all 3/4 scum are within that group, though I don't think two is at all unlikely.

Well I was going to make a point in response to your previous statement, but in the end, the simple fact is, I'd rather vote you than a random vote.

[Paradoxombie]

But you do see why putting forward neutral opinions against people in the way you did is scummy, yes? It means you have an easy out against any defense that anyone makes against your point ("well I am undecided re: that, guess I could be wrong"), and it means that you are effectively baiting someone else to attack someone

for

you, divesting all responsibility for any false attacks nearly entirely onto them.

I don't mean to be neutral. I do see it as scummy to ask for early claims as you did. Most of our suspicions are already known and refuted to the best of the targets' abilities. We shouldn't need much extra time to decide who's next in line to be lynched. But openly asking anybody for early claims seems condusive to multiple or unecessary claims.

So, seeing as how all reasons aren't very good, it's a gut feeling then, yes?

Even if my reasons for FOSing were poor, which I do not admit to, that still clearly makes it more than a gut feeling.

[Paradoxombie]

EBWOP: corrected the quote tag

But you do see why putting forward neutral opinions against people in the way you did is scummy, yes? It means you have an easy out against any defense that anyone makes against your point ("well I am undecided re: that, guess I could be wrong"), and it means that you are effectively baiting someone else to attack someone

for

you, divesting all responsibility for any false attacks nearly entirely onto them.

I don't mean to be neutral. I do see it as scummy to ask for early claims as you did. Most of our suspicions are already known and refuted to the best of the targets' abilities. We shouldn't need much extra time to decide who's next in line to be lynched. But openly asking anybody for early claims seems condusive to multiple or unecessary claims.

So, seeing as how all reasons aren't very good, it's a gut feeling then, yes?

Even if my reasons for FOSing were poor, which I do not admit to, that still clearly makes it more than a gut feeling.

[Paradoxombie]

Still not liking Twomz suggesting a no lynch.

Considering voting Aimee based on pure lack of input.

Ryan, Twomz just advocated a No lynch over lynching someone without decent concensus. What do you think of that?

[Paradoxombie]

Twomz, what does lynching a "Useless" player entail?

[Paradoxombie]

To state my opinion in case I haven't yet, I see no reason to believe pdcakes is scum. I can't say I particularly believe he's town though.

[Paradoxombie]

Well I'm not going to vote him at the last minute, and I think reducing your own future actions by establishing opinions or lack thereof is protown. I can't just be all "Yeah, pdcakes has been pinging on my scumdar all day" and vote him at the last minute.

[Paradoxombie]

Because if everyone was expected to do that it would be beneficial for the town as I explained

[Paradoxombie]

Para: Your last few posts do just look like trying to look busy and active. If pdcakes isn't scum and he isn't town, than what the heck is he?

Dear god ryan are you paying attention? I didn't say he wasn't town and i didn't say he wasn't scum. AND JUST TO BE CLEAR I also didn't say he WAS scum and I didn't say he WAS town.

So really I could've just said I have no opinion of pdcakes. And I'm not trying to do anything in my last few posts but reply to others. Unless you think I somehow planned to be questioned.

[Paradoxombie]

I see nothing odd with Twomz's rhetoric. I agree with most of it. Lynching a lurker or someone who is useless to the town is certainly better than lynching an obviously protown player who seems to be doing his best, although it's not as good as lynching scum, obv. Come endgame, the town needs active players who are willing to make an effort out of finding scum. I fail to see what's hard to understand about this. His stance towards no lynch is based on the circumstances, as he has already explained. I almost agree with this, but I think there might still be a chance to come to a concensus over a lynch ... but lynching someone with only 3 - 4 votes is certainly not ideal.

Well could you actually take a stance, or be more clear? A little too much ambiguity in your statement for my taste. Do you or do you not think a No lynch is better than lynching a player who, at deadline, has a majority, but only half or less total needed? Also why do you feel that way(logic, please)? And you said you almost agree, so I assume some part you disagree with?

[Paradoxombie]

Unvote

It would be a little too hypocritical of me to allow a no lynch, now.

[Paradoxombie]

Well, I do want to vote you, but I'll give anyone who wants a chance to vote aimee, before I make up my mind, since we still have 3 hours.

[Paradoxombie]

I regret not asking Twomz if he could defend himself with his one-shot.

[Paradoxombie]

I don't like the case against Aimee, either, but I'm keeping in mind that this doesn't change the fact that she may be scum. Assuming she doesn't I'm definitely gonna be looking at how this all happened.

[Paradoxombie]

"Unofficial vote count"

Aimee (3) - Ryan, Twomz, ThinMan
Twomz (2) - GodofWine, Aimee
Paradoxombie (2) - SirWario, Gorgon
pdcakes (1) - Kabenon007
Ryan (1) - Curiouskarmadog

Not Voting -
Simenon
pdcakes
Paradoxombie


I thought this might be useful.

[Paradoxombie]

Well, considering it's a tie right now.

Vote: Aimee

[Paradoxombie]

Am I to gather that the two on Twomz (a claimed one shot doc) are not believing his claim?

I don't think either has seen it yet, based on their last postings, site-wide.

[Paradoxombie]

Well I've gotta go now too, so don't expect anything else from me, 'till day 2

[Paradoxombie]

For now, my FOS on Thin_Man still stands.

The way in which CKD is talking about the note that referanced him seems off to me.

[Paradoxombie]

Ckd's claim is so completely unlike the others.

Vote:Ckd

[Paradoxombie]

Ckd's claim is so completely unlike the others.

Vote:Ckd

What possible reason is there not to, at the very least, not give him another night to confirm he has a killing ability?

That will allow another kill, probably a townie, if he's SK.

[Paradoxombie]

Ckd's claim is so completely unlike the others.

Vote:Ckd

What possible reason is there not to, at the very least, not give him another night to confirm he has a killing ability?

That will allow another kill, probably a townie, if he's SK.

So you believe that an SK would risk counterclaim by the third most likely role in the game

with only one other person alive at that point

? How is that not an utterly colossal risk for someone who needs to live the entire game?

Could you clarify on the italiced part?

[Paradoxombie]

It doesn't seem that unlikely considering the powers are the same and therefore verifiable, and it's the closest protown role to fit the warning of "Be Wary"

[Paradoxombie]

I'm perfectly aware that he can confirm having the ability. A mafia cop can confirm having a cop ability. That doesn't mean that he can claim cop without the real cop going 'excuse me sir, you are full of shit', and him getting lynched without so much as a by-your-leave. The benefit of that play, for scum, is that they can draw out the cop in exchange for one of their own. No such luck with the SK. He would have to

know

that there is no vig in the game, otherwise a claim like that is exceptionally risky. And this is a game based on fucking cowboys. Do you honestly think any sensible minded serial killer would be

his entire chance of winning the game

on the fact that none of the 8 unclaimed people are vigs? I don't. I think it's exceptionally unlikely. It's just not human nature to take risks that exceptionally huge, especially when the reward is pointing yourself out to the mafia as someone they will have to kill before endgame. And factor in as well that you can't even argue down any vigs that counterclaim you, like you could with a cop, a doc, or a tracker. A vig just shoots you in the night and you lose, without any chance to argue back. There's no plausible way on earth it isn't a massively bad play for a serial killer to claim vig.

Your probably correct, but I just realized that I misread; I had attributed somthing CKD said to a different player.

Unvote

make it an

FOS: CKD

ok: I am still unsure about both the claims.
While i am very suspicous of both wario and ckd I am going to switch my focus back to paradoxombie, who was my initial suspect today.

Vote: Paradoxombie

What's your case? And what specifically made you start suspecting me today?

[Paradoxombie]

Well pdcakes, it's clearly better for myself to be lynched than for no one to be. At least if I get lynched, my alignment will be confirmed, and the rest of the players can look at my wagon on day two use it to find scum.

I voted Aimee for two reasons 1. There was potential for a no lynch, and I had no idea there'd be any more votes before deadline. and 2. Even if someone did come in, there was a good chance that they'd vote me, while if I voted Aimee first, I couldn't be killed by a single vote.

for clarity:
No lynch<My lynch<Random lynch(aimee, for me)<An actual suspect of mine

I really don't see how my unvote of twomz could be grounds for suspicion.

[Paradoxombie]

umm when you removed your vote it was on twomz. wouldnt he count as a suspect of yours? i thought a suspect fo you was a better lynch than you.....

Yeah, but at the time there was a tie in votes which would result in a No Lynch. And a no lynch is worse than anything.

Why was you being lynched instead of Twomz better than you being lynched instead of Aimee? I still believe your first unvote was a ploy.

Because Twomz wouldn't have been lynched, my vote only tied him with me. We would've had a no lynch.

[Paradoxombie]

But why would you vote Aimee? You never really showed any suspicion of her. You saved yourself with your tie with Aimee. But tried to sacrifice yourself with your tie with Twomz.

Those weren't the same situations. With Twomz UNVOTING prevented a No Lynch; With Aimee VOTING prevented a no lynch. You really just aren't paying attention.

[Paradoxombie]

SirWario, You haven't had much useful input recently.

[Paradoxombie]

Well I don't like some of the things he said, I don't find most of them scummy, and I don't like how Simenon is attacking him over them, which I DO find scummy

Unvote, Vote:Simenon

[Paradoxombie]

I change my mind about my vote

Unvote

It really wasn't as justified as I remember.

Mod could we get a prod on Thin_Man?

His absence especially bothers me considering his consistent posting under his normal account

[Paradoxombie]

1: Who is our best lynch candidate? AND why?

2: Who do you believe is town currently?

3: Who gives off the biggest scum vibes?

Hey Gorgon, could you answer these questions as well?

[Paradoxombie]

1: Who is our best lynch candidate? AND why?

2: Who do you believe is town currently?

3: Who gives off the biggest scum vibes?

Hey Gorgon, could you answer these questions as well?

How about you too?

I'm not really sure what I think. I definitely need to re-read before deadline. I know Gorgon is the only player who doesn't seem scummy at all, but that's not saying much at the moment. I've just been getting little pings on my radar recently. The most scummy vibe has been comming from SirWario, but I've got pretty much nothing to back it up, so I see little point in pursuing it.

[Paradoxombie]

Is anyone NOT in favor of getting a deadline extension?

[Paradoxombie]

CKD, did you ever tell us what your night 1 action was? If not, would you mind doing so?

[Paradoxombie]

Well I think I'm gonna

unvote, vote:CKD

Sure, GOW is pretty passively scummy, but CKD is pretty actively scummy(imo). I'm not buying his claim and I feel confident enough in my suspicion that it seems more dangerous to leave him alive. That not only gives him a vote, and forces us to waste another day, but also if he knows he will be lynched tommorow, his partners can sit back while he makes all the moves that would be condemning later(like blatantly voting townies or allowing a No Lynch) I don't like the idea of a player with nothing to lose like that.

But enough of the reasons I think we shouldn't give ckd a night to prove himself. Here's my reasons for suspecting him:
1. I don't like the way he went about his claim at all.
-The way he attacks simenon looks quite a bit like scum trying to take a townie out with them.
-The way he "soft claimed" looks like he was feeling out the situation so that he could worm his way out; Like he wanted as many town opinions as possible before he actually says anything he'll be held to.
-he waited as long as possible to give a name for his role, while SirWario, whose claim is more believable says that his role doesn't have a name.
-After SirWario gives a few specifics about his PM, THEN ckd says his is similar.
2. He didn't kill last night
-I'm just not buying that considering how much suspicion was being thrown around at the end of day 1
3. He doesn't think a deadline extension is "Necesary"
-The way he calls the deadline "not necessary" seems like a dodge of actually saying he is pro-deadline
-He talks of how conversation has stalled when his recent postings are sporadic and lack content
-^^^^ especially bad considering he should be killed tonight if his role is true. I'd expect him to be doing more scum hunting and want as much time as possible to give what input he can before he dies.

There might be other reasons I can't remember at the moment.(I don't use notes)

[Paradoxombie]

Oh yes, one more thing I forgot is that there is simply a higher chance of SirWario randomly picking scum than of picking the vig(if there even is one) to write the note about.

[Paradoxombie]

silly Para..did you even need to ask me if I did something last night?

Is this about me having my vote on your scum buddy GoW?

way to set up that WIFOM arguement tomorrow, but shouldnt you wait to lynch me until tomorrow? I already know who I am vigging tonight, but I guess that is why you are scared today isnt it?

Well I'd rather not assume you did nothing, because maybe you had attempted to vig someone and it didn't go through but you didn't want to reveal that there's another doctor. But that's just one possibility. If you did conceal anything, like maybe you're just one-shot like Twomz, I ask you to reconsider before any more conclusions are reached.

I don't know what WIFOM argument you're referencing me setting up, but I already know you're wrong, so I really don't care at all about your specious accusation.

I'm interested to see if everyone else really believes that your play comes from someone who knows they're dying tonight. Your whimsical overconfidence does not help.

[Paradoxombie]

if I am alive tomorrow, what does that say about my alignment (WIFOM arguement tomorrow).

you want me to reconsider what? my night kill?

I want you to reconsider if you've concealed anything from the town.

If you do survive, shouldn't you be thankful that I "set you up"? Not only do you get your supposed kill, but the town won't suspect you tommorow and it will reduce possible scum. Not to mention you get an extra day to scum hunt. The only way what you just said makes sense is if you are assuming that your kill will not go through, which doesn't makes sense. Unless of course you already know that there won't be a second kill tommorow.

I'll tell you what it looks like to me. It looks like you want to accuse everyone who suspects you of being scum, and then assuming your not lynched(I think you should be) You claim the scum are trying to get us to mislynch you when your not killed. I'm not setting you up, you're setting yourself up. The only flaw is, like I said, your argument only makes sense if there isn't a vig kill tonight(if you confirm your ability, leaving you alive would benefit town far more than scum)

My conclusion?
You already know there won't be a second kill. And I'm very happy with my vote.

[Paradoxombie]

I'm very angry that I used "your" incorrectly instead of "you're"

[Paradoxombie]

Simenon, what the hell have we been doing for the past four fucking pages if not arguing? Why are you not all voting Simenon?

Umm how about you explain why you're not voting ckd? Are you just going to blindly believe his claim? Is my argument really so poor that you don't even feel the need to acknowledge it?

[Paradoxombie]

No I didn't remember to be exact. But do you see any specific problems in my case against ckd? I'm interested in any other opinions.

[Paradoxombie]

The Vig is very common, so it would be likely we would have one in this game, it is after all Western themed, and to claim it and hope that there were no counterclaims would be foolhardy. He could have picked something much less attention grabbing and easy to disprove.

Perhaps. But what other roles would fit the "be wary" message?

You HAVE made me think of somthing I didn't, though. It would've been easier for ckd to simply continue generally ignoring the notes if he was scum, it's not like he was under much pressure. Well that makes me less sure, but I see alot more things that don't make sense if I believe the claim. Also, my last point about how Ckd's argument only makes sense if there's only one kill tonight seems pretty significant to me, atm.

Actually I just had another thought. While it would've been easier to ignore the notes if he was scum, it also would've made even more sense to ignore the notes if he was vig. He could simply vig kill Simenon tonight and he wouldn't even have to claim. He might also be able to direct suspicion towards Simenon as an unclaimed cop would(of course we now realize that the notes aren't accurate but I'm trying to put myself in ckd's place when he claimed and as town he would be believing the notes). So now it makes even less sense for him to suddenly claim as town than as scum, imo.

So here's why I believe SirWario's claim more than ckd's: SirWario claimed to protect, when he could've easily kept silent and allowed for a mislynch. Ckd claimed as soon as the tiniest bit of suspicion was on him, in order to get another player killed, when he could've easily not claimed and taken care of the killing himself if his claim is true. And it's not like we wouldn't have realized what "be wary" meant if he had died and been confirmed vig, it's not like he had to worry about us losing the info that Simenon was scum.

[Paradoxombie]

Perhaps. But what other roles would fit the "be wary" message?

This is irrelevant, because the notes carry absolutely no fact to them, at least no intentional fact. Any truth behind them is soley coincidence.

Well that's the thing, I don't think it is a coincidence, and you asked why anyone would fakeclaim vig. I was just trying to think of other options someone who wanted to fakeclaim and fit the "Be wary" message. See?

Ckd claimed as soon as the tiniest bit of suspicion was on him, in order to get another player killed, when he could've easily not claimed and taken care of the killing himself if his claim is true.

I don't think it was that quick of a claim. Besides, if I recall correctly, pdcakes kinda forced a claim out of him. I can't remember it exactly, but I'm pretty sure it went something like that. So I don't think the method of his claim is suspicious to me at least.[/quote]

I'll have to look back further. But what I remember is ckd started mentioning how the role writting the notes might be some kind of cop right at the beggining of day 2, and it seemed to me like he was planning to claim the whole time, and I don't like the way he stalled for a while.

[Paradoxombie]

Well I'm not going to bother answering Gorgon's question because I no longer consider ckd a suspect. I will answer any questions anyone has about my thoughts and arguments, if anyone suspects me for them. A wise breadcrumb, ckd, I only wish your intelligence was more consistent, because your play still seems largely illogical to me.

my parts in bold

Para changed his vote because no one is buying any of his other cases.

What cases?

Why I think he is scummy?

1.) he is not just voting the claimed vig, he is urging others to vote me as well, he is really pushing this case. He is not looking at this game through town eyes. The vig is an asset to the town, yet he doesn’t want me to have a chance to confirm. Why is that?

If I didn't believe your claim I'd definitely find some of the things you said pretty scummy. How is urging others to vote a player any worse than voting them yourself? What's the point in voting someone if your not gonna try to get them lynch(i.e. convince others to vote them too)? I've spent several extensive posts explaining why I thought it'd be wiser to lynch you. You'r clearly setting up straw men by asking me a question I answered in my very first post on you and not even bothering to mention my explination.

2.) He thinks I am scum, but he wants me to tell him the specifics of my role as a vig (one shot), which is leading me to believe they might have some sort of role blocking ability and they need to know where to go with it. Tell me Para, if I am scum, why do you care if I am a one shot vig or not?

I only wanted to know if you were concealing anything from the town. Note that I didn't bother to ask you any such questions until I decided you should be the lynch today. I assumed you were scum, but if you were vig and had concealed somthing then perhaps your play would make sense to me and maybe change my mind. I fail to see how asking you helped scum any more than town so I find it a poor point.

3.) He tried to suggest (with a vote) that my claim was false before, but the first time around he wanted people to believe I was a SK. He changed his mind…

I'm perfectly aware that he can confirm having the ability. A mafia cop can confirm having a cop ability. That doesn't mean that he can claim cop without the real cop going 'excuse me sir, you are full of shit', and him getting lynched without so much as a by-your-leave. The benefit of that play, for scum, is that they can draw out the cop in exchange for one of their own. No such luck with the SK. He would have to

know

that there is no vig in the game, otherwise a claim like that is exceptionally risky. And this is a game based on fucking cowboys. Do you honestly think any sensible minded serial killer would be

his entire chance of winning the game

on the fact that none of the 8 unclaimed people are vigs? I don't. I think it's exceptionally unlikely. It's just not human nature to take risks that exceptionally huge, especially when the reward is pointing yourself out to the mafia as someone they will have to kill before endgame. And factor in as well that you can't even argue down any vigs that counterclaim you, like you could with a cop, a doc, or a tracker. A vig just shoots you in the night and you lose, without any chance to argue back. There's no plausible way on earth it isn't a massively bad play for a serial killer to claim vig.

Your probably correct, but I just realized that I misread; I had attributed somthing CKD said to a different player.

Unvote

make it an

FOS: CKD

Now he is back saying that my claim is fake (versus being a SK).

Why is it scummy to change my mind? The reason I changed here is because I had thought another player had claimed but then I realized it was actually the second part of your claim I had been remembering. Thin_man was right about how it didn't make sense for SK to claim vig, anyway. I decided to go after you again after more time had passed because the case against you had only increased since then. But really, I think it's unfair that I have justify myself like this when you didn't even bother to explain how it is scummy.

4.) Day 1, he was on the Aimee lynch (for no reason) then left with” Well I've gotta go now too, so don't expect anything else from me, 'till day 2”.

Umm I thought we had already cleared this up that I voted Aimee to prevent a no lynch. Just more straw men, ckd. I will admit that the fact I left at that time is a valid scum tell, but I could just as easily stop posting without warning so I could post again OR ignore the game, whichever suited me. I stayed on as long as I could, and I eventually had to go, simple as that.

Well I no longer suspect you ckd, but I'd still like you to answer at least 1 of the questions I posed. Why didn't you simply kill Simenon that night if you believed that note? You argue the value of the vig, but it looks to me like you outed yourself unessesarily and cost the town. On the other hand your lackluster play makes me question whether such power would really be useful or terribly dangerous in your hands, anyway.

[Paradoxombie]

Unvote

Para, you need to get your facts straight, then you can answer your own questions. If you figure out when I stated I believed the NOTES, you will have your answer. Not going to do the work for you (besides it is apparent you need a reread anyway).

Well in your second day 2 post you referenced the role who fingered you being a cop. This is pretty much confirmation that you aren't a simple townie. You go on to make a big deal about what be wary means which seems like an attempt to push people towards considering what your role is. Fianlly you say we should lynch Simenon because you want to confirm the notes, but you already should be aware of whether they are accurate since one was about you and all of us immediately pointed that out. In the end it looks like you just stupidly led yourself into a claim when you should've just ignored the notes and use your night kill to take out Simenon. At least that's what I think.

Now please quit avoiding the MY question, why did you want to lynch the claimed vig versus waiting until tonight?

I don't need to avoid your question, I answered it before you even asked, before I even stated my case:

Well I think I'm gonna

unvote, vote:CKD

Sure, GOW is pretty passively scummy, but CKD is pretty actively scummy(imo). I'm not buying his claim and I feel confident enough in my suspicion that it seems more dangerous to leave him alive. That not only gives him a vote, and forces us to waste another day, but also if he knows he will be lynched tommorow, his partners can sit back while he makes all the moves that would be condemning later(like blatantly voting townies or allowing a No Lynch) I don't like the idea of a player with nothing to lose like that.

[Paradoxombie]

quit back tracking Para, you asked me why "didnt I simply kill Simenon THAT night if you believed the note"...You didnt know what day I believed the note. .

I think you misunderstood, but maybe I wasn't clear. I assumed that you believed the note when you decided to try to get Simenon lynched on day 2, because the second note made you think the notes were accurate. When I said "that night" I meant night 2, as in the night after the 2nd note came(Which like I said is when I assumed you came to believe the 1st note). If you believed the note on day 1, then....WTF, man? At least it would be consistent with the rest of your play that doesn't make sense. Like being Anti-Deadline Extension

So you thought I should be lynched today, because I would have a vote tomorrow? A townie might want to see if I am indeed a vig before lynching me.

A townie would also not want to let scum just breeze through another day(day 2, not 3). Especially if that scum would have nothing to lose. I don't think it's that hard to comprehend.

Also I am glad you reposted this.

Sure,

GOW is pretty passively scummy

, but CKD is pretty actively scummy(imo). I'm not buying his claim and I feel confident enough in my suspicion that it seems more dangerous to leave him alive. That not only gives him a vote, and forces us to waste another day, but also if he knows he will be lynched tommorow, his partners can sit back while he makes all the moves that would be condemning later(like blatantly voting townies or allowing a No Lynch) I don't like the idea of a player with nothing to lose like that.

You think GoW is scummy? Why have you never voted or FoSed him (that I can find, please post if I have missed)? Now that I am not a suspect, you going to vote him now?

Caught you again Para...and you just gave up your scum buddy.

Oh god, I'm so tired of your BS overconfidence. I hope you realize it will only cost you. Also, it's obnoxious as hell.

But to answer your question I would probably vote GOW at deadline if I had to pick someone, but I think he's going to be replaced anyway. And since the biggest point against him, imo, is lurking, I just don't see a point in voting him now or any time recently. If he was still around and still posting in the same fashion, then I probably would vote him.

[Paradoxombie]

Simenon, if Kabenon is your number one suspect, could you state your full case against him?

Ryan, what has happened to your opinion of Simenon? FTR, I find your case against him pretty lame.

Kabenon could you state your full case against Simenon? Unless you already have in a single, cohesive post.

[Paradoxombie]

My opinion of Simenon stands, he's scum in my books but I'd like to see what people do on your bandwagon near deadline

Give a percentage of how sure you are. Just a rough estimate of certainty that he'd come up scum. Because I'm really tired of players pretending to be 100% certain of all their plays. I've come to think it masks true opinions.(not to be accusative)



Your opinion is as illogical as ever, CKD. I've answered every valid unpreviously-answered question you or anyone else has had, and if I haven't it was an honest mistake. We're approching deadline and now you want to turn my scumhunting into a scumtell. WTF?

Here's a question for you if you feel left out: Why didn't you wait for more than 2 players to weigh in on my case against you before you revealed your breadcrumb? Surely that would be helpful to the town. What if a bandwagon had sprung up on you suddenly? The town really could've used that information, especially at this point, and also later in the game.

Or are you really so blindly sure of yourself?

[Paradoxombie]

90% sure

Including process of elimination, or based on his scumtells alone in isolation?

[Paradoxombie]

90% sure

Including process of elimination, or based on his scumtells alone in isolation?

Process of elimination and I feel he's one of our scum. What are you fishing for here?

I just think you're far too sure considering the evidence you presented. I'm see it as very very possible bussing.

My parts in bold

Are you feeling embarrassed for pushing that very anti-town “lynch the claimed vig move before he could possibly confirm himself at night” move?

No, the only player who should be embarrassed here is you. Your terrible play, none of which made sense, has wasted the town's time and the only info that would've been useful from it you chose not to wait for, because you "figured it was a good time". What you're mistaking for embarrassment is anger and awe. Anger that you continue to push a somewhat decent case stuffed with all your BS. And Awe at your continuing senselessness and lack of basic logic and reasoning skills.

Figured it was a good time to do so.

Bravo.

Why are you asking why I didn’t wait.

To expose you as the fool you are and have been. The one intelligent thing you've done is breadcrumb, which has now implicated me and magnified your mistakes further.

Would a bandwagon on me have been scummy?

I don't know, I can't predict what never happened. Besides there is more to bandwagon than whether it's scummy or not. We could also look for vote hopping and craplogic. We could see who didn't vote you and whether their reasoning is logical or supect. At the least we could force players to give an opinon, which in itself is scumhunting.

As far as I am concerned there was already a bandwagon...you and GoW, maybe I got all the information I needed.

BS overconfidence again. I have no idea if GOW is scum, but I know you're at least 50% wrong, and your guise of certainty only further shows your lack of mindpower

[Paradoxombie]

Dear ckd, I'll tell you why it helps me to do this. It's because the greatest point in my favor is your own scumminess. The more scummy you look, the more logical it was for me to go after you, and I barely need to try. You're prodeadline, you claimed at a pointless time, you didn't kill last night, you did very little scumhunting today up until I started going after you, you revealed the breadcrumb way too soon. You just don't know what you're doing.

If you didn't have proof you were vig I'd still totally be for your lynch. You haven't seemed the slightest bit town to me all game, and many times antitown. You have yet to actually refute any of my so-called craplogic, but I'm not surprised, to criticize something you must actually be able to do better yourself.

And you don't need to be guilty to be "implicated", genius.

Your entire case does basically comes down to:" You wanted the town to believe that lynching the vig before he could confirm himself was a good idea...if you were town, wouldnt you want a vig on your side?"

I didn't think you were vig, and I gave more than enough logic to show it.

[Paradoxombie]

You, sir, are dense.

I'm not going to bother refuting you. I think most players at least comprehend my logic even if they disagree or don't believe it.

You knew you would come out and attack me the minute I threatened you. You didn't pay attention to my points. You didn't look at my reasoning. You didn't think. You just couldn't wait to reveal your proof and you didn't even though it cost the town. All of it costs the town. But maybe I'm acting too certain. Here's one thing I can say in your favor:

If you're scum, you're actually pretty great. Lucky and great.

[Paradoxombie]

We could've done that before you gave proof, fool! That would've made sense!

[Paradoxombie]

And I don't have to "resort" to insults. You've earned them. You deserve them. Have them. Enjoy them.

I do tend to get a bit worked up.

[Paradoxombie]

Para, now that ckd is obviously no longer a suspect, who do you find scummy? Btw, I liked your 869.

I have very little idea at the moment. Hopefully I can reread and maybe ask a few more questions before deadline.

[Paradoxombie]

exactly my point, everyone wants to look protown by asking for an extension...Para wants people to believe I was scum because I wasnt for an extension (in this case)...yet, there is little activity..

A deadline is clearly the greater of two evils for every reason.

Now I've finished 10 pages of my reread. I made some notes:

otes

-Day 1
post 1-Ryan refers to the note as interesting. That's it. No ideas. No conclusions. Nothing. I don't like it. Mafia would want to discuss the notes and get protown views while avoiding any attachments to any viewpoints.

Post 5-Ryan brings up lynching way, way too fast for me. He references "an easy first day lynch" in quotes. I fail to see where that came from. Looks like someone who wants a possible fast lynch discussed, without looking like he brought up the topic himself. I don't like it. I also don't like the way he appears to direct this post at ckd, and how he ends the post without reaching any conclusion again. Note however that it is only a few minutes later in real time. The way he adresses his questions speciffically at ckd is looks like linking. Still looks like he doesn't want to establish an actual opinion but wants to get a feel for what the town is thinking. suspicious.

post 11-Pdcakes posts similarly to ryan. He seeks discussin without presenting any opinions of his own. Pdcakes and ryan are pretty much the only two players who don't establish any opinions or ideas on the topic of the note in their first posts(including SirWario). Scummy. I wish I had noticed this before(for both of them)

post 16-Ryan continues to contribute nothing. Says he's waiting for more players before he non-random votes. I don't like it. Nobody has voted nonrandomly yet, and little has happened to vote on. Looks like he's set up to jump on an adam bandwagon if it springs up.

Post 18-Brilliant; definitely protown.

post 20-Thin_man votes Adam sarcastically. I don't like how he does this when he claims not to give reasons for his vote. Looks like he's trying to avoid contribution to the discussion or retribution for his vote. I suppose it's just as bad as ryan and pdcakes for early posts. His following post 24 is equally devoid of significance. In post 25 he get's a bit better.

Post 26-Ryan is still inconclusive and wavering. Still wants to hear from more players(Adam). He's contributed pretty much nothing despite 4 posts. I wouldn't mind in most games but this one had an active discussion.

post 45-Pdcakes brings up lynching adam. I don't like it.

post 49-Ryan continues to contribute essentially nothing

post 55-I don't like the way pdcakes "apologizes" for his suggestion that adam a lynch candidate.

post 94,95,96,98-SirWario calls my arguement(that the lack of a wagon on twomz is significant)stupid. GoW calls him on the slight inconsistency that he previously said that scum would "eagerly join" such a wagon. Sir Wario claims that there wasn't a 'need' for a wagon, because Twomz had only 'suggested' it. I call his criticism valid in my next post, but I'm not sure now.

post 143-ckd calls ryan on inconsistent play from another game. Not sure the game, but the way ckd describes it ryan has been acting totally unlike in that one. Ryan responds that he "hasn't seen anything worth jumping on". Ryan goes on to post twice more in reference to the accusations, but still doesn't contriute. Finally gives a suspicion list in 165, but gives no reasons. I would've been especially interested in hte reasons for his "least suspicious" list

post 205-Thin_man mentions he would've found pdcakes scummier if he was getting more annoyed at being bandwagoned for somthing he didn't think was scummy. From my perspective pdcakes did seem to get fairly annoyed at that.

I forgot that in this whole period we had discussed posting suspicions and whether it was scummy or not. I think it benefits scum more than town, but several town players disagreed so I guess that opinion is a null tell.

post 240-Pdcakes brings up a pretty good point against SirWario and points out ryan's lack of contribution. Good. However, pdcakes has not been the most active contributer himself.

post 248-Ryan asks what else he's expected to contribute. Says he'd be happy to see any of his top 3 lynch. I don't like it.

post 249-Simenon attacks ryan. Good reasoning. I wish I had paid more attention to his points before.






So far, Ryan has been setting off tons of alarms. I don't know why I didn't notice them originally, but I feel bad about it. It all seems pretty obvious. Bad case of tunnel vision I guess.

for now

Vote: Ryan

I plan on finishing my re-read before deadline, but I'm not sure if it will be possible.

[Paradoxombie]

So with a deadline near, Para makes a vote based on not even a third of the posts. If this turns out exactly like his vote on Aimee, where he just voted and said bye bye, it will look really bad for you if you aren't lynched today, Para.

You mean if ryan get's lynched?

[Paradoxombie]

ckd, what are your opinions of everyone?

[Paradoxombie]

ryan is always on my radar (because of his play style)..but I dont think he is the lynch today.

Well he said it was his playstyle now, but didn't you say that he played totally different in another game?

I change my mind about GOW. He was totally town at the beginning of the game. He pretty much just stopped playing, and that's a null tell. Assuming I'm not forgetting somthing significant he did. If he ends up scum I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to lynch me. His opinions were very very similar to mine.

I need to figure out when deadline hits too

[Paradoxombie]

Dude it's not skewed, I specifically said I might've forgotten something and I didn't necessarily forget it because I re-read the begining. Btw could you direct to to what you are talkig about or remind me with further details.

Anyway ckd wtf with the "I can't believe anyone is litening to paradox" comment? I just noticed you ended up voting ryan at deadline day 1! I reached basically the same conclusion you did.

I started to write more notes, but it serously became just a case against ryan. So I'm just gonna read his posts. I think they look prety bad so far, still.

[Paradoxombie]

Well I'm definitely good with my ryan vote, looking at his posts. The only way I'll change my mind is if someone else looks scummier. I think I'll look at pdcakes and Simenon.

[Paradoxombie]

Pdcakes, you clearly had quite a bit of suspicion of ryan, whatever happened to all that?

[Paradoxombie]

Mod could we get a prod on Simenon?

[Paradoxombie]

mod could we get a prod on TheNinthLayer?

[Paradoxombie]

I am saying that this close to deadline, you are making a vote based on only about 25% of the posts. And in my opinion, the latter 75% has much more to offer in the realm of scumhunting than that first 25, yet you vote based on that 25%. Therefore your thinking is skewed toward the first, and less contentful, part of the game. I think your reread would be more prudent, if you were suspicious of ryan, in the realms of his accusations on Simenon.

Like I already said, I don't like his case against Simenon.

[Paradoxombie]

Dude it's not skewed, I specifically said I might've forgotten something and I didn't necessarily forget it because I re-read the begining. Btw could you direct to to what you are talkig about or remind me with further details.

Anyway ckd wtf with the "I can't believe anyone is litening to paradox" comment? I just noticed you ended up voting ryan at deadline day 1! I reached basically the same conclusion you did.

I started to write more notes, but it serously became just a case against ryan. So I'm just gonna read his posts. I think they look prety bad so far, still.

so you are trying to hold me to an opinion I had 700 posts ago?..a lot has changed since then.

What specifically happened that made you change your opinion of Ryan?

[Paradoxombie]

Gorgon: Look at Simenon's posts right before the lynch on Day 1 and tell me those don't smell fishy to you. The way he voted without reading the thread and just going with somebody who had the best wagon looks obviously scummy to me.

I fail to see how it's scummy. It's in the town's best interest to prevent a no lynch and he thought his vote was necessary, too. I really don't see any reason to believe he's lying and I have trouble understanding why you would think he is.

[Paradoxombie]

Gorgon: Look at Simenon's posts right before the lynch on Day 1 and tell me those don't smell fishy to you. The way he voted without reading the thread and just going with somebody who had the best wagon looks obviously scummy to me.

I fail to see how it's scummy. It's in the town's best interest to prevent a no lynch and he thought his vote was necessary, too. I really don't see any reason to believe he's lying and I have trouble understanding why you would think he is.

His vote would NOT have sealed anyones fate. The vote was not necessary because at the time Adel had the most votes on her, his vote was useless either way and him admitting that he hadn't read the thread and didn't know what to do but vote a wagon is scummy. How are you missing this?

Umm as far as I can tell, Theop basically changed the voting rules near deadline, he didn't change the frontepage to reflect this. Simenon misses the game for a few days and notices it's at deadline. He pops in past where Theo changed the rule, sees that no one has a true majority and does what he believes is preventing a deadline No lynch. It's a perfectly valid explination the way things look. I could see an argument why scum would do it, but I don't see why you can't accept this fine explination. Why assume that someone is lying?

[Paradoxombie]

Gorgon: Look at Simenon's posts right before the lynch on Day 1 and tell me those don't smell fishy to you. The way he voted without reading the thread and just going with somebody who had the best wagon looks obviously scummy to me.

I fail to see how it's scummy. It's in the town's best interest to prevent a no lynch and he thought his vote was necessary, too. I really don't see any reason to believe he's lying and I have trouble understanding why you would think he is.

His vote would NOT have sealed anyones fate. The vote was not necessary because at the time Adel had the most votes on her, his vote was useless either way and him admitting that he hadn't read the thread and didn't know what to do but vote a wagon is scummy. How are you missing this?

Umm as far as I can tell, Theop basically changed the voting rules near deadline, he didn't change the frontepage to reflect this. Simenon misses the game for a few days and notices it's at deadline. He pops in past where Theo changed the rule, sees that no one has a true majority and does what he believes is preventing a deadline No lynch. It's a perfectly valid explination the way things look. I could see an argument why scum would do it, but I don't see why you can't accept this fine explination. Why assume that someone is lying?

There were enough posts suggesting where we were vote wise and if he didn't know, WHY vote? Voting without evidence is darn right reckless and you know it. Why are you sticking up for him? Or just a clever way for you to latch onto somebody you KNOW is town because you're scum?

Suspect what you want, but your case is flawed. It looks like there are 3 posts in close proximity that state the new deadline rule, but I don't see how it matters if Simenon hadn't read up recently. Wouldn't you just look to the first page for the majority rules?

[Paradoxombie]

I have to disagree with your perspective of the situation.

[Paradoxombie]

I have to disagree with your perspective of the situation.

Than who's our best candidate? You seem to be defending alot of people but not making much of a case on anyone, any reason?

I think your the best lynch and hence my vote on you. You active lurked all of day one, posting significantly more than you contributed, and the only thing you've done day 2 is push this lame case on Simenon.

Bold is me

1) First off I would like some sort of explanation for your lurking on Day 1 AND your lurking right up until deadline. You went a good 5-6 pages without commenting one time, came in during deadline

Both townies and scum forget or neglect games. It wasn't even consistent behavior as far as I can see.

2) Why you voted Aimee near deadline when you CLEARLY admitted you hadn’t read the thread or knew what was going on
3) Post 495 says that you didn’t think Aimee was scum YET you were happy with her vote before deadline (when we weren’t in danger of a no lynch, which was your reasoning)

2 and 3 look like the same point to me. Simenon saw the game was at deadline. He looked at the deadline rules on the first page(which were incorrect) and thought his vote was necessary to prevent a No lynch. Seems like a good explination to me. The fact that the vote was unneccessary for a lynch only works just as much for your case as against it.

4) Post 643 says you are fairly certain that Gorgon, ckd, pdcakes, and Thin_man are town YET you give no reasons for WHY they are town

I see 2 times in the game you listed your least suspicious players and never explained them. Thin_man refused to give reasoning for absolutely anything.

Basically you took the fact that Simenon hadn't read and turned it into 3 points, and added on the fact that he doesn't want to explain his town list. Those seem like two minor tells to me. Somehow from this you managed to get 90% sure that Simenon is scum. Idk, but if he is, this case looks more like bussing than scumhunting.

what's your opinion of this case.

[Paradoxombie]

EBWOP

What's your opinion of this case

, Twomz?

[Paradoxombie]

I also forgot to mention that you've been voting me for 5 pages near deadline with the only ststed reason as:

"I'm interested to see where this wagon goes (especially close to deadline)"

For your entire days worth of going after Sim, you end up leaving your vote on the first bandwagon that comes along, without any reasoning and a lame excuse to do anything.

[Paradoxombie]

So you criticize people for voting without reasons yet are happy enough to do it yourself.

[Paradoxombie]

Okay, I think I'll claim. I'm a Protown Roleblocker. a harlot.

[Paradoxombie]

No one; I didn't want to block any cops.

[Paradoxombie]

So you criticize people for voting without reasons yet are happy enough to do it yourself.

I'm happy enough to see other cases on you and agree with what they've posted and this close to deadline you are the best choice.

Well to be in line with your reasoning on Simenon you must think the town should assume you're lying. Sure you have an explination, but why should we believe you, right? You vote hopped to me first chance you could. You didn't give reasons. You used interest in "where the wagon would go" as an excuse so you could change votes if you wanted to but could still leave it on me without actually giving logic or content. You just happened to wait as long as possible to actually limit yourself with an opinion, just like day 1.

[Paradoxombie]

Okay, I think I'll claim. I'm a Protown Roleblocker. a harlot.

any bread crumbs? anything else about your role that you would like to add?

No breadcrumbs, but my pm is somewhat vague about my rolename like SirWario's but very unlike Ckd's

[Paradoxombie]

And you waited one day before deadline to claim, what exactly is the difference? You and Simenon or one or the other is scum, I'd bank on that and if you want to tear down my explanations (again) feel free, but my vote isn't moving.

I don't expect your vote to move. I'm not trying to convince you, I'm trying to prove that you're scum. You don't deny that your actions are scummy. Voting me so quickly is certainly an aggressive play compared to the conservative style you've had most of the game.

[Paradoxombie]

I haven't done anything scummy Para, you on the other hand have showed enough to the game to be the frontrunner in votes. The only thing you have right is I was conservative early but how is changing a playstyle to adapt to a game scummy?

So you don't think it's scummy to change votes without presenting reasoning or logic? You don't think it's scummy to vote to see "where a wagon goes"? You think simply saying that there are reasons should be enough to bandwagon at the end of the day?

I don't think it's particularly scummy to change playstyles, but the only change I've seen just happens to be at the ideal moment to lynch town. You deny that this is scummy as well?

Okay, I think I'll claim. I'm a Protown Roleblocker. a harlot.

any bread crumbs? anything else about your role that you would like to add?

No breadcrumbs, but my pm is somewhat vague about my rolename like SirWario's but very unlike Ckd's

how was it different than mine?

Because from what I see your role has an actual name, while ours are only called "cowboy" and "harlot".

Cause he's REACHING so close to deadline

I'm the one who has actual logic to back up their opinion here.

[Paradoxombie]

Ryan, what about your day one play? I refer to the way you kept asking questions without giving any input yourself. Do you deny that this is scummy as well?

[Paradoxombie]

Yes I know Para, you have logic, you are town, we are all scum, yada yada yada.

The only player I think is scum, atm, is you ryan. Your caricaturization of my opinion was quite amusing though. Do you think I'm asking you too many questions? I mean you haven't even bothered to answer some of them.

How is questioning possible suspects scummy?

I'm talking about active lurking. Should I be convinced that you were actually scumhunting because you asked a ton of questions without reaching conclusions when you got the answers?

[Paradoxombie]

WHAT haven't I answered Para? Show me a question you asked that I have failed to answer!

So you don't think it's scummy to change votes without presenting reasoning or logic?

You don't think it's scummy to vote to see "where a wagon goes"?

You think simply saying that there are reasons should be enough to bandwagon at the end of the day?

I don't think it's particularly scummy to change playstyles, but the only change I've seen just happens to be at the ideal moment to lynch town. You deny that this is scummy as well?

Do you think I'm asking you too many questions?

Should I be convinced that you were actually scumhunting because you asked a ton of questions without reaching conclusions when you got the answers?

[Paradoxombie]

Oh for Christ sakes Para if you want me to answer each one point by point instead of in general as I have just say so.

Please. But I don't think it's unusual to expect answers to questions automatically. Is it?

While I'm at it, a few things from my notes on Para.


1. Boldly said you would NOT name your suspects on Day 1 (Page 9 is where it starts if you’d like to refresh) The rest of us stated we had no problem naming, you, for whatever reason said you would not

2. Your vote in 301 on Twomz was quote “Because the game is too slow” And you rip me for my reasons on voting somebody? WOW, how about this gem? And than you FoS me for basically ripping your vote

3. Looking back through post 314 is of interest to me

Para's vote on Twomz was long overdue. He's been suspecting him the whole game. Its no suprise he voted.

Para, it's about time you showed some conviction.

I don’t like this exchange and although Sir Wario IS on Para’s wagon right now, it wouldn’t surprise me one bit to see him skip off the wagon and onto somebody else before we hit deadline. Would you like me to keep going Para? Or is this evidence crap too?

I've seen worse, but it's still pretty bad. Your third point isn't actually a point, so you could only dredge up 2 points. You have a problem with me not naming suspects. I actually said that all my suspicions were already out in the open. I also explained why I thought it would benefit scum more than town. The entire point of listing suspicions was to keep the game from slowing down. I suggested we simply vote more boldly(after all, we pretty much do that at the begining of the game). After you all listed suspicions I didn't see anything of note for a bit, so I went with my own advice and voted twomz whom I had fos'd earlier. Unlike your vote on me, I was not attempting to get twomz lynched, and I had given explanations for my suspicion of him. I Fos'd you because you responded faster than twomz to my vote on him when part of the point was to see his response. So yes, I was fosing you for "ripping" my vote. Jumping like that to the defense of another seemed odd.

Anyway I change my mind, I do think that was crap. Those arguments are totally setting up straw men by ignoring my previously made arguments and explanations. Also like I said, your third note has nothing to do with a case against me. And I especially don't like how you decided to present this so close to deadline and just when I'm attacking you for lack of reasoning.

[Paradoxombie]

You ASKED for reasoning, you got it, deal with it.

You asked if I thought it was crap, and it totally was. Too tired to retort? Like, with logic instead of attitude and avoidance?

[Paradoxombie]

Also, I don't think I should have to ask for reasoning. I think it should be freely given when it's relevant. At least that seems protown to me.

[Paradoxombie]

Bold is me

1) I’ve presented a case on you AFTER I made my comment about “where this bandwagon will end up”

That bit I called crap a few minutes ago? I thought those were just some random notes you wanted to mention. It's hardly protown to only give a case several pages after the vote and only after I demand it and complain.

3) I’ve seen a strong case presented against you and if you honestly believe it’s 100% scum driven you are just being silly. Points have been made (good ones) against you

This is the second time you've suggested something like this. Why? I never claimed to be not scummy or to be a victim of scum. I think the most(and perhaps only) reasonable case against me was presented by Kabenon. I think it's funny because it's you, ryan, who is denying every scumtell of your's I point out, and it's you who thinks the case against you is 100% scum driven.

[Paradoxombie]

Yes I think you are scum Para, die now please, just die.

ok,

unvote, vote:Paradoxombie

My logic: I think ryan is scum and that even if another person votes me there's a decent chance that they're town and will simply distract from future ryan suspicion. If I'm going to die I might as well contribute how I can. I think I've said mostly what I want to anyway. Also I really don't feel like dealing with this game any further(although I don't mind most of you).

But anyway, I misinterpreted that ckd quote too. Interesting. That mistake probably changed the whole course of the game.

[Paradoxombie]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention I don't like the way Gorgon apologized with his vote. Last couple times I've seen anyone as un-suspicious as him they ended up scum. Just a side note.