Mini 429: Planar Chaos Mafia- Finally over (thanks ABR!)

[Yamahako]

Vote Quagmire

you're a terrible magic card.

[Yamahako]

Like...Guys...I'm really not kidding.

Unvote, Vote Thestatusquo

[Yamahako]

I have a "lynch all dickheads" policy personally.

[Yamahako]

The "Bold and Brazen" plan of 'getting discussion started' doesn't work. Some people are going to jump on your wagon because they are surprised, some people are going to jump on your wagon because they are scum, and some people are going to jump on your wagon because your behavior is deplorable and wouldn't mind you being lynched regardless of your alignment. Discussion about who was on your wagon is largely WIFOM. Especially when you do it coming out of the gates.

I don't want to play a game with people who are that disrespectful regardless of their true intentions.

Lynch all liars isn't just a good meta-game choice - its a good choice. Scum are far more likely to trip themselves up on their words and expose lies. Town shouldn't have that problem if they are telling the truth. Townies telling the truth allow other townies to trust in everything they said up to the point they are confirmed (through death) by the mod.

In my experience, people with your behavior and attitude *think* they are creating discussion, but what ends up happening is that people either ignore you or get pissed off - then the discussion is about you for a couple of (real life) days- and then it dies out when people defend you as a retarded townie and your lynch has no momentum. This halts real discussion because people are too busy dealing with your theatrics to have been posting anything that can actually be used, and by the time your wagon is derailed, no one has anything to talk about.

The activity between you and others have the sense of outside game talk of this game which would mean either impropriety or scum as well - which lends more credence to a vote. I don't know you or any of your friends. I shouldn't be expected to when playing on the board.

So my new meta-choice is to 'lynch all dickheads' because I don't like what you have to say, I think that the plan never works in the town's favor, and I feel you're a distraction to the real game. For me its win-win we can kill a scum and have a better chance of winning, or kill an adolescent mouth-off and enjoy playing more.

Hopefully, over time, people will stop acting like this.

[Yamahako]

@ YAMA

The "Bold and Brazen" plan of 'getting discussion started' doesn't work. Some people are going to jump on your wagon because they are surprised, some people are going to jump on your wagon because they are scum, and some people are going to jump on your wagon because your behavior is deplorable and wouldn't mind you being lynched regardless of your alignment. Discussion about who was on your wagon is largely WIFOM. Especially when you do it coming out of the gates.

You're wrong. People who are town are trying to win a game of mafia. So are people who are scum. My analysis is contingent on that fact. Also, saying that "the bold and brazen plan to create discussion doesn't work." is bullshit. You know why? Here we are DISCUSSING it. That is DISCUSSION. Even if you don't think it's valid discussion or not, what I did is force people to take a position on an issue, and defend it. This MOVED US OUT OF THE RANDOM VOTING STAGE because people can no longer get away with saying "RANDOMVOTE: LOLZ" because there is actual content. That is a demonstrated fact. I am not sure how you can argue.

You're right we are discussing your stunt. Not talking about the game. Scum can easily dismiss any charges made

because

of your actions. This

discussion

doesn't do anything related to the game state. We will still be going off half cocked when we are done, we'll just have claimed its "past the random voting stage." Why is there random voting? To see how calm discussion and wagoning causes people to react. When you force a reaction on someone artificially, you aren't going to get a response that can actually be interpreted in any real way.

Sure

its getting discussion moving, but its pointless discussion (even this argument with me, which is largely a discussion of game theory, doesn't help out the town at all).

Second, I am not sure you know what WIFOM means. Wifon refers specifically to a certain subset of cicrular logic. This is not wifom. It is my expectation to how I think people will act when faced with a certain situation. The only way that could be WIFOM is if in my first post I had said "Ok...I expect scum to do this, so anyone who does it is going to et voted." I didn't. That would be wifom, because discussing whether scum would or wouldn't do the action would boil down to "He wouldn't do it because you;d vote him, but maybe thats what he wants us to think, so he DID do it, but maybe he knows we;d think that, so he would" and on and on and on. That is wifom, what I did is not.

No, you don't understand what it means. The phrase "Wine in front of me" originates from the move

The Princess Bride

. It describes a situation where you are trying to infer the result of a set of actions based on the intention of who committed them. How this is scenario is WIFOM is this: The person voting you could be a townie who finds your actions scummy. The person who was voting you could be a mafia member who thinks you would be an easy wagon. The "wine in front of me" scenario is dealing with which of the two that person is. Is this the kind of person who would pose as a concerned townie when facing such behavior? Or is this the kind of person who would try to act as such while taking the opportunistic move to get you lynched. WIFOM is not circular logic in the slightest, its a dilemma in observation and interpretation.

Lynch all liars isn't just a good meta-game choice - its a good choice. Scum are far more likely to trip themselves up on their words and expose lies. Town shouldn't have that problem if they are telling the truth. Townies telling the truth allow other townies to trust in everything they said up to the point they are confirmed (through death) by the mod.

This is not true. Anyone is more likely to trip themselves up with lies. The only basis of this point is that some townies don't lie. The only basis for THAT is that those townies are afraid to be lynched under LAL. THerefore, the stipulation ONLY EXISTS BECAUSE OF ITSELF AND IS NOT VALID.

No, a townie who doesn't lie doesn't trip themselves up with lies. A mafia member will trip themselves up with lies because they are forced to lie. This reasoning isn't circular (real circular logic is a premise that's based on its conclusion which is what you're describing) - the meta-rule "Lynch all liars" came about because lying is a mafia trait. Some idiot townies have tried to lie - this makes them look like scum when they are caught. The original idea behind the rule is that townies would learn NOT to lie. Regardless of your misinterpretation of the nature of Lynch All Liars - you didn't respond to the main point:
Its not in the towns best interest to lie, because if you've been lying and you die (by any means) your previous statements become questionable. If you have remained truthful, everything you said can be considered confirmed. And that information can be instrumental in helping to nail down scum.

Second, lets look at the "lie" I made. It is a perfect illustration of why LAL is dumb. I claimed to a dayvig as a joke, and simulated a kill. Now, this has NO potential benefit to scum. (If you can think of one, let me know. I can't.) LAL stipulates you lynch me or the merits of that "lie" alone, which is absolutely utterly rediculous.

Ha ha, I'm not voting you for lynch all liars... your lie was harmless and stupid.

In my experience, people with your behavior and attitude *think* they are creating discussion, but what ends up happening is that people either ignore you or get pissed off - then the discussion is about you for a couple of (real life) days- and then it dies out when people defend you as a retarded townie and your lynch has no momentum. This halts real discussion because people are too busy dealing with your theatrics to have been posting anything that can actually be used, and by the time your wagon is derailed, no one has anything to talk about.

I'm not sure you understand the purpose of discussion. Discussion and a first wagon are not intended to get a lynch. In fact, the purpose of them is stated in your own post. "people get pissed off" these are, in my experience, about 50% more likely to be scum, because they want the town to misslynch out annoyance. The people who defend for someone being a retard not being a scum tell are more likely town, because town knows that just lynching someone who is annoying and has a lot of momentum because of that is probably a misslynch.

I don't understand the purpose of discussion? Discussion and a first wagon are not intended to get a lynch? Like hell they aren't. Maybe they aren't trying to get the person being wagoned lynched, but the ultimate goal of anyone trying to win (which you said was your whole point) is to get the right person lynched (townie for scum, scum for townie). And while you're trying to tie the two together (even though they are unrelated) people getting pissed off when you are acting like a jerk aren't more likely to be scum - maybe they (like me) just don't want to have to deal with retarded and abusive behavior. Those who defend you aren't more likely town, the mafia are more likely to defend you because they would KNOW you are town, and not being on the wagon you're likely to create gives them some credibility. Stalling the game with idiotic behavior is more likely to cause a mislynch because the town is tired of dealing with the crap and just wants the game to continue. Honest discussion, PBP analysis, and direct questioning are far more likely to create the kind of quality discussion that helps games.

Sorry, but heres the main thing you might be missing about my logic: I take as an assumption the fact that people are first and foremost trying to win, and at least some of all actions are based on that fact. If you disagree with that assumption feel free to say so.

Of course people are trying to win, but can you explain any way in which this would separate town from scum? Or is it more likely to just annoy a bunch of people and allow no real conclusion to be made? Are you trying to say that I should assume you're trying to win and so if you were mafia then you wouldn't act that way - because it would make people think you were mafia - but you shouldn't vote people that act like that because that behavior is town? That's recursive logic. But you're right, I guess I don't take the assuption that the primary goal of people playing is to win. My primary goal is first and foremost to have fun. Which leads to the theory I'm about to quote you quoting...

So my new meta-choice is to 'lynch all dickheads' because I don't like what you have to say, I think that the plan never works in the town's favor, and I feel you're a distraction to the real game. For me its win-win we can kill a scum and have a better chance of winning, or kill an adolescent mouth-off and enjoy playing more.

If you've noticed, I've stopped acting like a dick a long time ago. Now I'm actually having argumentation. You're the only one not actually engaging in the discussion that has been created. It makes you seem somewaht petulent and stuborn. "I don;t think what you did creates discussion, therefore I REFUSE TO DISCUSS IT EVEN THOUGH EVERYONE ELSE IS. That's what seems to be your position. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think I made it pretty clear that my position is to vote people who act the way you did. I'm hoping people agree with me that this is a good policy because then maybe we'll have fewer dickheads disrupting games. Besides the whole argument that you can't be mafia because you're acting crazy is completely WIFOM (the real kind). Changing your tune now (though you haven't much changed you're still acting condescending ) hasn't made anyone appear less scummy than you, so you can keep my vote. I would think though that a large post would be discussing what's going on... but I guess not...

[Yamahako]

Yup your plan definitely got discussion going TSQ.. Or did it derail and people stopped posting? Hmm perhaps the later..

I personally feel that this... discussion is a good thing for the town. I don't think it'll tell us much about who's town and who's not, and I don't think it's likely to lead anywhere significant, but it does start conversation which is, frankly, nearly always a good thing.

I think that discussion which doesn't help us find out who is town and not won't lead us to a lynch and is generally distracting.

Of course there's more to my thoughts than that, but right now I'm not sure if it's wise to share them.

Use your discretion, but we could use some more leads I think. Unless you want to vote TSQ, I'd be ok with that.

[Yamahako]

I'm entertaining the idea that Quagmire may be a Jester. He's been pushing his random vote senselessly WAY past the time that everyone else has moved on. And just look at his last post.

Or he just wants to get rid of Anix. Anix can be annoying sometimes

[Yamahako]

You know what. There're just some things you're going to have to deal with with mafia games.

1) People will know each other outside of a game context. They will therefore interact with each other with a little bit more familiarity that with other players. This is completely normal. Unless it starts actually effecting the game (I.E. If aniX suddenly decided that he was not going to vote CPE because he likes him a lot.) it's your job to deal with it.

You mean like if its interfering with other people understanding who you are talking to and what about? Its affecting the game. YOU deal with it.

It's an inherency on a mafia site that some people have been here a lot, and will have played, talked, interacted with others more than you have. There has not been one thing in this game that was game related that 1) was so incomprehensible that it couldn't be figured out, or 2) That was game related (I.E. not an obvious joke.) The onus is on you, as players. This is not a problem with this game, but instead with forum mafia where people know each other. You're going to have to deal. Furthermore, if you had ASKED instead of bitched and moaned about people using nick names, we would have just told it to you, and then it wouldn't be 'elitist, and cliquey.' The only reason it was, was because you didn't make the effort to find out what was going on, but instead tried to bitch and moan.

No one complained at first, it was just requested that you stop. But it doesn't matter - the request was unnecessary, DONT do it. Its disrespectful to the people you're playing with, and its discourteous to the mod by creating a large amount of contention in the game. It isn't up for US to make the effort to understand your pseudonyms, your out of game discussions and your personal references. It's for YOU to leave them out of the game. If you want to chat, go on AIM and chat.

2) People will play with playstyles different from yours. This is my playstyle. I am not going to modify it for you, or anyone else in this world. I am not playing this way to confuse you, and I am not playing this way because of you, I am playing this way because this is how I enjoy my mafia.

No ones asking you to change how you PLAY THE GAME (which doesn't include side conversations), just accept the consequences of your choices without getting mad at someone else about them. You actions bring about a negative response in other people. You don't have to change, you just have to accept what happens because of them.

We are playing mafia, you are not. All you are doing is complaining, bitching, and trying to find fault with what everyone else is doing, when it is pretty much par for the course. I suggest you stop trying to make the site change, and instead adapt to the site, or you are not going to have very much fun here.

No WE are playing mafia - you are trying to socialize with your friends. You have yet to contribute to this game in any real way. I've never been in a game on this site where there has been as much rude and disrespectful behavior as in this one - and I have been playing here for over a year.

There is a certain amount of meta that goes on in a mafia game - so familiarity with other people does come into play with how people perceive actions. However, that's completely different than bringing outside conversations and experiences that have occurred between people from outside the game that other people in the game can't relate to. Using other names to address players is inappropriate and disrespectful unless people are used to seeing those names. I don't want to have to look up in my notes every time someone refers to someone as Shea to figure out who that is. And your and Anix's reaction to Ecto's very reasonable request is offensive

to me

. I think an appology is in order.

[Yamahako]

VOTE: Be Happy New Year

That's the second really bad bandwagon you've jumped on to, with little to no mafia related reason.

I can get behind this one.

Unvote, Vote BHNY

I think Quagmire just wants to lynch Anix, I don't see much into that. I think lynching Anix is generally a good plan on principal too but there's much better stuff to work with.

[Yamahako]

Bah lost a ton of posts

Vote Kison

[Yamahako]

Alright, tell me why you guys are voting Kison again?

I'm voting him because 2 pages ago he was defending Quagmire, and now he's voting him for the same reasons he was defending earlier...

[Yamahako]

:goodposting:

i second that statement, however, "kison" needs to be replaced with, "anix".

You wanna know why people are voting Anix?

[Yamahako]

We seem a bit stalled :-/ I don't see much to go on :-/ Can someone elucidate some of their thinking?

[Yamahako]

Either way, your post is pointless.

Just because you don't see the point, doesn't mean there isn't one. Why don't you skip the personal attacks, hmm? If you think something I did seems scummy - certainly point it out - but don't assume you know all the reasoning behind my post.

[Yamahako]

I still think shea is town

You need to use names from this site "shea" isn't a player in this game.

[Yamahako]

Vote Creampuffeater

[Yamahako]

That got some people to talk

Unvote, Vote TSQ

gotcha!

[Yamahako]

Cody, we're on page 9. Could you grow up, please?

Can we prod the non-talkers, and get some replacements going if they don't respond, Mr. PDubS?

Yama, care to explain yourself?

Sure, I dropped bait and got a bite.

[Yamahako]

What was the bait, and how does it function? As in, what did you do to get a vote, and what makes it more likely that a scum player would take it then a protown player?

It simple, a protown player would have questioned the vote before voting, or put a reason behind the vote. Scum would see the vote as something that "obvious" and try and jump on the quick lynch.

DeanWinchester doesn't come off too great either.

And yeah, I have other reasons for doing what I did as well. They seem to be going smoothly.

[Yamahako]

Post 37
Post 124
Post 195

Are the three summiest posts this game.

Unvote, Vote Anix

, TSQ get's a day of respite. On a re-read I've discovered Anix is scum, let's kill him.

[Yamahako]

Yama, I'd like you to respond to my attack of your "trap."

If you actually made a reasonable attack that showed any evidence to refute my previous statements, I might have said something sooner. But I guess you're talking about this statement?

Yama. How does that tell function at all on d1?

How does making someone do something scummy function day 1? I didn't think I need to explain this, especially to you...

First of all, assuming I don't have a reason isn't town, there are many town reasons for not fully explaining a vote. Second of all, claiming that the reason is "obvious" for a vote is no better than giving no reason at all - and is actually scummier because it gives you an out - any reason someone could think of - they will attribute your reason to that. It's a very sneaky way of justifying yourself to people without having to explain yourself.

In addition, there's the timing. Scum would love a chance to facilitate a quick lynch on someone who does something that could seem questionable. I think there's more than one scum who voted me right after my vote, but you are the most likely. The timing of my post was when the game was stalling out, a good opportunity for people feel like they could get some movement toward a lynch due to getting bored with the game. This is the most effective time to set something like this up. Mafia have itchy triggers because they want to get to night and have their fun.

But, even if all of that was complete and utter BS - its not functionally different from what you were claiming to do earlier today with your day kill shenanigans. So your attack on my reasoning or methodology is completely baseless, unless you admit your own tactics are bogus (while being considerably more inflammatory).

To add to the myriad of reasons why my vote was beneficial to town - was that it picked up the game quite quickly.

Right now, if I was to make a guess at the make-up of the scum group I'd say it was TSQ, Anix, CPE, and Dean.

[Yamahako]

@TSQ nice analysis. I don't agree with every point, but you do make a good case.

[Yamahako]

That was more of a feeler, to see what other people's thoughts were on Dean. I'm aware it wouldn't solve the deadlock at all, which is why I didn't bother changing my vote. I'm running up a Dean flag and I want to see if anyone salutes.

dean is in my top 4 scummiest people. I still think Anix the real deal play though.

[Yamahako]

Yet can you provide a decently logical reason(better than the old one) for voting AniX?

I can't give you a logical reason, no. On a reread it became obvious to me - but I accept that I could be misguided in my insistence.

[Yamahako]

You have stated you can't give a logical reason...can you give any reason at all, even if it wouldn't be deemed logical/rational? Could you at least point to the post where, on your reread, "it became obvious" to you?

I think I'd rather be lynched than point it out to be honest. And no, Kison, I don't fault anyone for not voting along with me. I will support a TSQ, Dean or a CPE lynch before deadline if that's where things are headed.

[Yamahako]

You have stated you can't give a logical reason...can you give any reason at all, even if it wouldn't be deemed logical/rational? Could you at least point to the post where, on your reread, "it became obvious" to you?

I think I'd rather be lynched than point it out to be honest. And no, Kison, I don't fault anyone for not voting along with me. I will support a TSQ, Dean or a CPE lynch before deadline if that's where things are headed.

Not sure what I think about this Yama....Im trying to think of why you wouldn't want to point out a particular post. I cant come up with a good enough reason that would equate to scum getting more information out of a post than town would, simply because you were to point it out. At the worst, it should be a wash as far as insight goes, so why not let town in on it?

I can't say more than I have about my reasons other than if i'm right, it's worth me dying as a townie to not divulge. If I'm wrong I deserve to die anyway lol.

I'll claim if I'm going to die obviously and I'll say everything I can as a good townie about my opinions on the game state. But I can't explain my reasons any further.

Truth be told, given some of the attitudes in this game, getting lynched wouldn't make me that upset, but I promise I'm not trying to get lynched. I don't want to screw the town over.

Here's some things I will say:

TSQ has been beligerant and his case against Ectomancer is a box of crap labeled "new and improved" - but its still crap. Most of his points are regarding Ectomancer's dislike for the familliar name calling (which I wasn't happy with either) and I feel Ectomancer's reaction was fully justified - especially when the mod said on PAGE ONE to cut it out. Regardless - it has nothing to do with Ecto being scum. The other points made about Ecto are minor at best and TSQ has done worse himself this game.

Re-read CPE and you'll see an obvious mafia lacky. A Definite "yesman" and someone with practically no substance. Under the radar would define this play - you can't really claim lurking since he's posting - but definitely not adding to the play.

I think Dean is an SK, he's incredibly opportunistic. He's too "wishy-washy" with his posts and a bit too concilliatory which makes me think he's afraid of a lynch in general but wants the day to end. I would guess NK immune.

I think Anix is the other mafiate with CPE and TSQ, he's keeping his distance slightly but you can see the common ground between their play styles. And of course there's the stuff I can't mention about him.

[Yamahako]

I also like how you try to direct investigations at me with no reason to do so.

Example please?

[Yamahako]

Lowell is the person who replaced BHNY.

Also, Yama, I don't know how I can possibly defend myself against an accusation you refuse to name. Is your plan to just randomly accuse people for doing scummy things that become "obvious" to you on a read-through, yet never mention what became obvious to anyone else but yourself? That might possibly be the worst plan in mafia history, short of claiming mafia day 1 first post erroneously (or truthfully, both are pretty bad plans). It screws the town out of information, prevents the mafia from getting lynched (if your random "obvious" read-through selection process happened to land on a scum through no skill of your own) since no one has ever been convinced to lynch someone based on the argument of "He is clearly scum, there is a post that proves it, but I will never ever tell the town what post".

Please, if you have "proof" against anyone, I ask that you show it sooner rather than later because we don't have time for games when the deadline is coming up fast, you claim to have information on one of the potential lynches, and you offer this potential lynch no chance to respond to any of the accusations against him because you refuse to identify what the accusations are. The lynch of me can be summed up with Quag being juvenile and you having proof that you can't show anyone. Or at the very least, try to explain why you can't reveal the posts you find suspect. Holding information from the town is NOT a town-friendly action, and if you aren't doing town-friendly actions I am going to assume you are not town-friendly, and vote accordingly.

Just to get this out there - I don't have "proof." If I'm alive tomorrow, I will explain my thought process, and I will explain my reasoning. I don't expect you to defend yourself, because as you say it would be pointless. I don't expect people to not lynch me based on a promise to explain - I know it seems odd. I just truly believe its in the towns best interest for me not to divulge my reasoning today.

That being said, how can I expect anyone to go along with it -

Unvote, Vote Dean

he was number three on my trap, and hasn't made a post yet that made me feel good about him. Though CPEs comment "I'm always like that" to my accusation that he wasn't doing anything good for town was pretty scummy (and got a chuckle from me).

@TSQ your analysis was well written and comprehensive and on face value seemed good. When I read ecto in context, your attack seemed more like someone who decided that someone was scum and you used the posts to that advantage. That doesn't mean it isn't correct - it just seems like a bunch of crap reasons strung together. That could add up to something - but I believe there is more to work with. Also, I believe that the bulk of your attack was with content that wasn't real based on the game. I see your point about it possibly being a tactic specifically taken, but I don't agree with it.

additionally, I feel hostile toward you and I think that may be clouding my judgement - I will admit that.

But seriously, Ecto - you're straw maning.

[Yamahako]

I have a huge post about 1/2 done on my home computer - if I'm not too tired when I get home I'll finish it - otherwise I'll get it done tomorrow when I get to work.

Also - I won't have INFORMATION tomorrow, I'll have an EXPLINATION. I just want to make that clear.

[Yamahako]

EBWODP: I mean before I get to work - not when I get to work.

[Yamahako]

I'll address what I don't like about the ectomancer case:

1.) The day kill thing does nothing if you don't take responsibility for your actions. You can't be a proponent for 'lying being a good townie behavior' and then expect people to have any kind of readable actions based on your little stunts. You claimed to be a dayvig in a very cheeky way, and anyone who reacted to it could also have been interpreted to do so either ignoring the stunt or messing around with you right back. That's the problem with claiming to lie as town - no one will believe you.

2.) This is followed up with a weak attack based on Lynch All Liars. As you've seen in the post you created on the discussion board TSQ - most good players think there may be a RARE time to lie as town - but in general it is a good meta strategy to lynch all liars. Regardless you attack Ecto for bringing up some of your comments to discredit your opinion - and its actually a good point on his part. If you are constantly joking around and making false statements - it DOES change how things you say are to be trusted.

3.) I agree that attacking people for doing something you've been doing is not very smart. You've been doing this too, however. So you're attacking someone for attacking you for doing something that they've been doing when you've been attacking them for attacking you for doing something that you've been doing.

4.) His arguments regarding the use of outside the game familiarities aren't strong, I'll give you that. I don't know if they are an honest attempt at placing suspicion though.

5.) I see your point that he was backing off way too sharply - but in your analysis of this post you are leaving off the fact that he IS addressing some of your previous objections and answering your claims against him. What more do you really want?

6.) The argument about outside names, in my opinion, holds no water inside the state of the game.

7.) I think post 13 was an honest attempt to stop discussion that was dooming the game. I don't think he was looking for approval necessarily - but I do think he wanted to drop the issue.

8.) I'm not sure voting Quag - who wasn't being voted just ignored - was scummy. Putting pressure whom you think is doing something suspicious is bad for town? I don't think so personally... Anix vote by Ecto was a bad play and I believe something Ecto did because of the incredible rudeness directed at him. Should the vote have been made, probably not. Is it evidence of scummy behavior - as I said before I think the argument regarding the outside names holds no value in determining scum in this game.

9.) This post you quoted is full of true meta-strategy and analysis. The fact that you dismiss it was the biggest reasons I find this whole case rather forced. Ecto's defense of this point of his attack on Quagmire is rather comprehensive and I feel no need to add to it. I don't agree with Ecto's attack of Quagmire - but that doesn't make him inherently scummy.
Your last point is rather bad. Ecto has been contributing - more so than CPE (and others) by VOLUMES. You may not agree with his points (nor may I) but there isn't more than misconstrued logic (not crap logic) that is making them unpalatable. I don't find they points made in your case anywhere near enough for a vote to be honest.

In your first response against his defense - you do make a good point - but you exaggerate it. Ecto is applying a straw man defense in many ways - but that's not true for EVERYTHING he's been saying to defend himself. And even though the nature of the argument he puts across (as in the form it takes) is in its execution a fallacy - the content of it is often not. Pointing out Kison voted first is NOT a tell. Your actions were NOT going to expose any kind of scum. Seriously townies would be as likely to avoid the vote as scum after that display if they believed you - and if they didn't their actions following your outburst AREN'T telling.

In your next attack of his defense YOU put up the straw man. Rather than address HIS points, you create a false point that he didn't defend. Your point WAS that LAL is not a strong strategy and Ecto attacked that (rightfully so in my opinion). Any attack on CPE is good town play - especially when he admits he doesn't want to help town...

Your next attack was AGAIN a straw man tactic - for someone who seems to think this is damning of Ecto you sure use it a lot... HIS point was that it doesn't matter if you respond to multiple posts with one post - your reply was "you hid two posts in one." How does that combat his point? You also attack him for not saying why scum would react to your behavior - but his behavior wasn't really strange enough to attract attention. Maybe this is an issue of not knowing how to get the proper reaction - but WHY would someone needs to know why scum would react to their behavior IF THEY WERE TOWN?

Scum want easy lynches sure - but scum like built up cases that have the air of legitimacy more. Ecto has not been attacking the easiest lynch so far this game - Dean is FAR more indicative of that behavior. Ecto put some understandable pressure on Quagmire. My agreeing with Quagmire aside - it isn't scummy behavior. You're saying that townies seeing scummy behavior and acting on it is scummy behavior in so many words. That's just plain WRONG.

Guys, lets continue the trend of TSQ trying to defend inexcusable actions by attributing honest emotional reactions with scum tells. Because that's constructive <sarc>. YOUR the one not getting the point - HES not the one that keeps bringing up your inappropriate behavior - YOU are using his reaction of that behavior as an attack against HIM. YOU are missing the point - This behavior is pointless to the finding of scum, it makes the game less fun, makes people feel uncomfortable about playing with you and HINDERS THE GAME. So drop it. It's not a tell. Move along.

You can test the waters in far better ways. An unexplained vote during a lull in the game designed to illict responses is far more effective and far less offensive than the tactics you've tried the game (which in all honesty have amounted to nothing in the way of finding scum no matter how you try and spin it.)

3 of 4 of your "arguments" are about the same thing - the inappropriate behavior by you, CPE, and Anix and are invalid. The other point you didn't really make in any clear way as I've just been re-reading these arguments and its not in there. And yes, the volume of the case IS fluff. It could have been said in far fewer words with less quotes and been as effective. The only reason I can think of to make it that long would be to see if people wouldn't scrutinize it point by point as I am doing.

I understand your point about pressure - but I disagree - if there are NO votes on someone no matter what the tenor of the town there's no real pressure. Ecto did the right thing if he thought that Quag needed some incentive to explain his actions. YOU are the scummy one in this scenario for attacking that point so vehemantly.

Ecto's defense of your next attack was crap. He didn't summarize your points adequately and it doesn't really seem like he read it throughly. He did come across a bit too complacent regarding it - I would have as well considering that it was utter crap - but I would have actually had a good reason to.

To summarize for all the TLDR people: I think TSQ's attack was basically either made up of crap reasons, non-tells, or a discussion that was outside the realm of this game and thus is largely invalid. Ecto has what appears to be no skill in defense and makes himself look even worse, which is unfortunate if he's town

I don't think Ecto is the play, I'd love to see an Anix lynch but we aren't going to today. Dean or Cephrir (Ecto's attack is far better than his defense) shouldn't survive to tomorrow - but I'm leaning more on Dean because I think he's more obviously scum lazy townie like Cephrir and CPE. TSQ, I don't really like your method of playing, but that shouldn't be enough to condemn you. If I garnered one thing from your attack and reading out of game material its that you may actually believe what you say is beneficial for town - because of that I can't just write your behavior off as scummy- but I wouldn't be sad to see you night killed. I feel horrible saying that, just so you know.

[Yamahako]

We really need some more activity this weekend :-/

I think Mafia may be trying to ride a deadline vote to avoid putting their two cents in.

[Yamahako]

My thoughts are pretty clear. I will support a lynch of either of my three at dl.

What's wrong with a Dean lynch, if I may ask? Do I need to write up a case, I thought his scumitude was rather obvious...

BHNY has just been replaced, so I don't really see the need for a lynch now (though I'd like to hear some from the replacement). I've explained why I think an Ecto lynch isn't our best option, but I could get behind a Cephir lynch.

[Yamahako]

Dean is scum, but I don't want a no lynch and the Cephir case is pretty solid too. I would rather not confusing things before the end of day.

Unvote, Vote Cephir

Ecto - check out around post 200 again. See how I vote CPE, get voted with a reason, get voted by TSQ with "it should be obvious", and then get voted number 3 by Dean with no explination. After a little bit of questioning of me by town he immediatly unvotes with a crap reason. His behavior is like that - its not wishy washy it appears to be someone who is methodically getting on wagons to push for lynches, but not staying on them past the point of discovery. He hasn't offered actual reasoning regarding his votes and he continually is jumping on the most established (or the newest with momentum) wagon.

Personally I don't think his posts in isolation does his scumminess any justice.

[Yamahako]

Is TSQ going to be replaced? Or a more apt question: Is he really gone?

What are you talking about? This sounds to me like you know something you shouldn't. People who know too much are usually Mafia...

FOS Cavane

[Yamahako]

Please be careful here. Im not sure what Anix was thinking, and Im afraid of what TSQ might be thinking. I really dont think we need to start hinting (or blatantly stating) about who has powers, which will inevitably lead to the claims, at least not just yet.

I don't think TSQ is asking who - just WHY.

And yes, Anix I want to know why you think there is one too.

[Yamahako]

Because I got a message detailing how I went through some sort of psychic maze and my power didn't work. Was my first two posts not clear on this subject?

Just curious, did you happen to target Quag?

[Yamahako]

Also, Yama, what do you know about last night that you're not telling us?

I want an answer from Anix first.

[Yamahako]

roleblocker =/= town or scum.

If you want more votes, ok.

Vote Anix

THAT'S two.

[Yamahako]

Something happened last night and I need to know if you targeted Quag. I will not answer anything until this question is answered. I don't give a crap about your role, I just want to know if you targeted quag. Withholding this information solidifies you as scum in my opinion.

Also - stop using the name Shea. The mod has been explicit about this multiple times - your continued use of names outside the game show your lack of consideration of fellow players.

Exposing the existence of a roleblocker - when that role is as likely town as scum- is not a very town thing to do. You can use that information to confirm a townie who is claiming later if you wait. However coming forward with it early is something that would be much more beneficial of scum - you can either be giving other scum-buddies a fake claim, or you can be trying to out a town-aligned roleblocker (if they aren't very smart). I find your actions scummy, I found a reason yesterday to seriously suspect you, and I have information from last night that makes your testimony today suspicious.

Did you target Quag last night?

I have a followup question for you as well Quag. After AniX answers.

[Yamahako]

yama, you know who I am, stop pretending you don't, Your continued insistance that you don't proves that you're just doing this to be an ass, and not because it actually effects your gameplay in any way.

I didn't say I didn't know who you are (now, I didn't before). The Mod has asked THREE times, and it has been expressed by people playing this game to not use outside names. Just don't do it. And it doesn't effect my gameplay - it just makes me angry.

Why don't you, I don't know, comment on the game some more rather than try to start up an argument that doesn't relate to the game?

I'm still waiting on an answer from AniX.

[Yamahako]

1. What the fuck was your thought process yesterday?

2. What the fuck was your reasoning yesterday?

3. What the hell happened last night that makes me targeting or not targeting Quag important?

So, do we have a deal? I'll answer your question under the stipulation you answer all of mine, as you promised the town you would. Please note that if you violate this agreement, I will take it as a confession of scum, and vote accordingly, as I hope the rest of the town would as well.

Yes I will answer all your questions after you answer mine. (though 1 and 2 seem the same to me, perhaps you mean something different than is obvious).

[Yamahako]

I have a question for Quag two after you answer, but I'll concede to your questions first before I ask him - as the question depends on your answer...

[Yamahako]

My reasons for voting you yesterday were because I thought Quag was hinting at a cop role. His actions today seemed to follow that same pattern of behavior.

My thought process yesterday was that a cop would not want to claim (obviously) but if they had found a guilty then they wouldn't want to move their vote off of someone who they knew was scum. Quag being a long time player, I felt wouldn't have been dumb enough to say "I'm a cop, AniX is scum - lynch away" seeing as how that would likely get him dead. I felt keeping that to myself was worth dying for if it meant my lynch.

I targeted Quag last night, I was also roleblocked - and it was a completely different flavor from yours (I was turned into a sheep) but not enough different to be sure that we weren't role blocked for targeting the same target. Had you not been targeting Quag, I would have been far more suspicious of your claim of a roleblocker - seeing as how it's unlikely that there are two role blockers in the same game. Given that we targeted the same person - It's possible it was some form of immunity or protection instead of a mere roleblocking.

Quag - were you blocked last night?

Unvote

, I need to think more about what's going on.

[Yamahako]

Vote Quag

are you an SK or Godfather?

[Yamahako]

Yama explain please

Why don't you explain something,

anything

, so far about this game?

[Yamahako]

However, Yama, you still need to explain to me (and everyone else, for that matter) why I'm either a godfather or SK.

I didn't say you were, I just asked if you were

NK immune with multiple flavors - and a convenient lie on your part would make sense of last night. I've never really seen a role (though I could conceive of one) that would roleblock everyone that targets a particular person. Though, that would mean 25% of people targeted you last night... and we had a kill, so that's 33% of the town with a night action - oh and you said you were roleblocked as well, which insinuated you had a night action so that would be 42% of the game. Oh and our name investigator died last night (50% of the game), and we had one vanilla townie who died yesterday. That would mean 58% of the game in some way was either you, targeting you, or dead. And that at LEAST 50% of the game has a night ability.

Or else, you're NK immune with some trippy enchantery flavor. The most common NK immune roles are a GF or an SK. Add to that the fact that you're not a cop (yeah I'm dumb sometimes), and your driving like obsession yesterday (almost game halting) to lynch AniX.

Actually, its kind of an interesting way to play as mafia - do something relatively ridiculous but ultimately explainable and harmless like focus intently on a single player all day. Then, when everyone else is playing the real game, there's nothing to read from you. All the better if you're actively trying to get your partner bussed. Make a case that no one will jump on, and don't give away any other tells. You'll be ignored and never have to chime in on other plays unless you really want to. The longer your "target" stays alive the better.

I guess the real question is, is TSQ in on it with you guys?

[Yamahako]

Im with Quag. It looks like you are either saying you tried to kill Quag, or you know for certain that someone else did. Please dont use the %'s again. It's well known that 95% of statistics are made up on the spot.

I didn't really mean the percentages as statistics - it wasn't a chance of an occurance it was the percentage out of 12. And you're right, I was insinuating that Quag was attacked - which I wanted to see if someone would agree with - and it looks like Dean did (scum scum scum).

*I* did target quag last night however (though I don't have a killing role), and quag said he was roleblocked, and Anix said he targeted Quag as well. What's the likely hood that a super doc/roleblocker ALSO targeted quag?

[Yamahako]

Love Simulposting heh

[Yamahako]

no

And you know this because you're discussing this therad outside of the game?

[Yamahako]

no

And you know this because you're discussing this therad outside of the game?

This is exactly the kind of asshole shit that is making me hate this game. Yes I am being replaced. If Nick doesn't want to, thats too fucking bad.

Yeah, be pissed off because I'd like to play a fair game. That's mature. The rules exist for a reason.

[Yamahako]

So asking the mod if TSQ is getting replaced is "unfair"? wow..... just cause I know TSQ on aim and stuff doesnt mean I am cheating with him.

4. No talking outside the thread unless your role specifically says you may do so. For all intents and purposes, the confirmation stage is night 0.

The question wasn't unfair, you knowing the answer implies you're talking about the game outside of the thread. This is the same issue as with the inside jokes starting the thread and the use of names other than the ones from the game. It all implies impropriety in the game. If people don't follow these honor system type rules then the integrity of these games goes to crap. Who wants to play (on either side) if people are conversing about the game. It wouldn't be fair to the Mafia if people are confirming themselves outside of the game, and its not far to the town if mafia members are coordinating their statements during the day.

[Yamahako]

MOD: I apologize to you, I didn't intend to insinuate that you were doing anything wrong.

And yes, we need to get back to voting Dean, I forgot that I hadn't switched my vote yet.

Unvote, Vote Dean

[Yamahako]

My vote on quag had reasoning. I liked Yama's reasoning, this game is incredibly stagnant and a good bandwaggon always helps, Plus I'm mad at quag.

I still don't know where yama gets his statistics from. How does he know that I was attempted to be nightkilled? All that I've seen so far is that both AniX and Yama both targeted me last night, and were blocked. Unless Yama has a killing role...

P.S. to Dean: Why are you mad at me?

My statistics came from crap bucket (though they were demographics not statistics). I said before that I have no knowledge of you being attempted to be night killed, I just wanted to put the suggestion out there and see if someone bit on it - as its complete and utter crap.

Though I do find one thing odd - either you are 'untargetable' or some super doc/roleblocker targeted you last night. And no, I don't have a killing role.

[Yamahako]

Quag - could be something to your point, could be OMGUS.

Where's Yama? I'm waiting on more word on this trap thing.

I'm waiting for more people to respond to it - I don't feel the need to explain it further right now, I've explained it once already and its pretty obvious. I guess I can recap-

I put together a bullshit case with some non-confirmed data against Quag. Dean came out saying that it was an excellent case and joined the bandwagon. Read yesterday for my other reasons for thinking Dean is scum (jumped on my other trap too among other things).

Dean - what about what I said seemed like good sound logic to you? Particuarly the part about Quag having been targeted by scum- seeing as how we had a kill from scum last night already.

[Yamahako]

What is the feeling about a name-claim to try and jump start this game again.

For what its worth - I'm against a name claim - because if other peoples names would give away their roles as bad as mine - then I'd rather not out townie power roles.

[Yamahako]

but I think Quag has material and not just a retaliation.

Oh? Why would you think that? Seeing as how he's denied being a cop - and admitted to being roleblocked...

[Yamahako]

Your case against me is little more than you don't like my bandwaggoning.

And yama NEEDS to respond to what the deal with his lame trap is.

I have always been kind of suspicous of you ecto, but now I'm really feeling it.

FOS: Ecto

I did, you still haven't answered my questions however.

[Yamahako]

how is it lame or week?

7 days = a week. Is it 7 days? Lame means you can't walk... so it either can't walk or its 7 days long.

Why did you think that scum attacked Quagmire?

[Yamahako]

:teach:

Unvote, Vote Creampuffeater

Contribute or be lynched. This game is moving too slowly to accept any of this kind of crap.

[Yamahako]

:teach:

Unvote, Vote Creampuffeater

Contribute or be lynched. This game is moving too slowly to accept any of this kind of crap.

I think we should worry about cpe later. Let's get the most likely mafioso *now*, and we can nab lurkers later.

Maybe try a little harder then?

CPE isn't lurking - he's being anti-helpful

[Yamahako]

You are not ever going to get more out of cpe. That is how he plays.

What he's doing is

not

playing.

And Dean - Why do you think that Mafia targeted Quag last night? You STILL haven't answered that.

This is the most frustrating game of mafia I've ever played :/

[Yamahako]

No... I am playing, just not your conventional playing.[/quote]
Are you contributing to discussion? No? Then you are not playing.

Am i helpfull to you currently? no..

Has there been any sign that you ever will be? No.

does that make me scum? no,

Does that make you scum

my

? Yes.

should you waste a lynch on me to find out? no.

Give me a better lynch.

A self-confessed unhelp person of questionable alignment would be a better lynch than a potential helpful townie, and only slighly worse than scum. IF all you're doing is existing and derailing - then you need to get removed. If you don't give a crap about playing the game - ask to be replaced. Or if you don't plan on contributing then just shut up, and hopefully we have a vig that can take care of you.

[Yamahako]

Am I the only one who sees blatant scum in Cavane?

I think "Blatant" is a bit harsh - I see some small measure of scummy behavior - but nothing on the level of Dean or CPE.

Admittedly, I've never played with CPE so he could just be a worthless player regardless of what side he's on. If that's the case, I'd just as soon lynch him anyway then since people who refuse to actually give opinions about other people, comment on the goings on of the game, and post random nonsensical comments are worse than scum because they can keep focus away from true scum hunting.

[Yamahako]

Unvote, Vote Dean

he's a better play than Cavanne - Dean is obviously scum

[Yamahako]

Were at deadline and I think we have an even split between Cavane and Dean :-/

[Yamahako]

Deadline is still a week, off, but eh.

Vote Dean

No more split.

I'm sure Quag will point at me jumping on a bandwagon, and trying to save my own skin (which, to an extent, is true I'll admit.)

However, I've been after Dean for quite some time now, and the way he lurks through pressure put on him is disturbing, to say the least.

yeah I'm dumb... I was a week off :-/ Sorry

[Yamahako]

Cavane, I wouldn't call your vote on Dean breaking the tie - more pressure on Dean than you. If anyone was to claim - it should be both of you to defend your innocence...

But asking for a claim on day 2? Not really that townie a move.

We've already had the mass claim discussion - albiet a very short one- but please see that to read my objections.

[Yamahako]

He hasn't posted anywhere since July 30th, but he has never been extremely active based on his posting history. I'd hate for him to be replaced just to get lynched - seems like a lot of work for the poor replacee - and I doubt that person could explain away all the scumitude anyway. So I vote to

Lynch Dean

as opposed to replacing him.

[Yamahako]

/sigh so we wait some more :-/ Good going guys.

[Yamahako]

/sigh so we wait some more :-/ Good going guys.

this is why we should be lynching cavane

Dean or CPE would be a better play

Unvote, Vote Cavane

I almost don't care anymore guys :-/ but I won't make you replace me.

[Yamahako]

Um, what? Yama, why does Dean getting replaced = I become scummier? I want to lynch him, too but not without a claim.

I think his claim will hold no weight - so I don't care to hear it. I care even less to wait for a replacement to come back and say "I have no idea why he said and did what he did" and it mean nothing for his lynch. I'm much rather get this game moving again because there's practically no activity and I'm getting bored of it. You're number 3 on my scummy list, so while you're not in my top two choices - I'm happy with voting for you. There's no momentum for a CPE lynch because I guess people find it acceptable to not contribute in anyway to a game - since apparently no one but me thinks that's a scum tell.

[Yamahako]

I explained it, there's no momentum on a CPE lynch - people would rather bring in a replacement then vote for Dean (although the replacement can't account for anything Dean does and thus puts us at square one nearly with dean again) and Cavanne is my number 3. I want this game to get moving the pace is unacceptable. You and I are the only people to have posted in 4 days.

[Yamahako]

I don't think my defense has been half-hearted. I just don't feel like there's anything else I can do. I've answered each point against me. No one's responded to m defense. Everyone except Quag left their vote and lurked. I have no way of defending myself against Yama, since his case is that I'm his 3rd scummiest, and he wants to end the day.

Sorry :-/

[Yamahako]

Working as fast as I can =/

You're doing a fine job

Just this rabble should have saved you some work and lynched Dean..

we still can guys - ya know...

[Yamahako]

I'm going out of town until Tuesday and will have very little access..

Somehow I don't think it will matter much but I thought you all should know..

[Yamahako]

I will happily move my vote back to dean is there is a desire to just get it over with today - but I have limited access...

But then again, its unlikely that anything will move to cavane either today. It gives me great hope that both of these people are a good lynch though ....

Unvote, Vote Dean

lets save the mod some effort.

And I know its usually bad form - but this game is going to die otherwise - can we please have a deadline reinstated (but please make it rescind-able, and no earlier than a week from this coming up Tuesday - so I can still post for a week before the deadline?)

[Yamahako]

I was right

[Yamahako]

So is this game dead?

If you're waiting for the replacement - don't - I'm sure that it will be a waste of our time and not get us any further. Everyone needs to weigh in with their top three choices for lynch - and we need to lynch the number 1 choice.

If stuff doesn't start moving soon, I'm going to start suggesting stupid things like no lynch

[Yamahako]

Unvote, Vote Cavanne

How many does that make?

[Yamahako]

Bleh :-/ Weigh in if you are town and you can Cavane At least that way you can say anything that needs said

[Yamahako]

I'm very happy to lynch Albert, but I this is wagon is big enough fast enough. I'll wait for peopel to weigh in before I place my vote.

[Yamahako]

WAIT!

I'm a doctor dammit.

Ummm, you sure about that?

Vote Albert

[Yamahako]

WAIT!

I'm a doctor dammit.

Ummm, you sure about that?

Vote Albert

Actually, hold that thought a moment.

unvote

Name Claim.

[Yamahako]

After you role claim, the name claim wouldn't mean shit to anyone.

If mafia had a safe claim and you were town, their safe claim wouldn't be your name.

You are scum.

Vote Albert B. Rampage

[Yamahako]

vote Yamahako

How Quickly the scum jump to their partners aid.

For what its worth I have a doctor role

[Yamahako]

800 freaking posts and screws the game up like this...what an idiot. WHY DO YOU THINK I DIDNT FLAVOR CLAIM ? Because IM NOT A DOCTOR. This guys is so dumb......no subtlety at all.

WAIT!

I'm a doctor dammit.

Lynch all Liars? You want to explain what you mean then?

I'm

dumb? You claim doctor, and

I'm

dumb?

[Yamahako]

In my opinion, no townie would claim doc for risk of a counter claim and outing the doc. The tone of your responses also seem anti-town. If you had just posted an actual defense, as opposed to claiming, this would have never happened. The fact that you did however seems to be the gambit of a scum trying to eek out a better kil for your (potentially) last partner.

[Yamahako]

In case I die tonight:

I protected Quagmire night one, I protected Quagmire night two.

If you really

are[/a] a cop, Albert, at least try and go for the win and give us the results of your investigations...