Mini 1710: A Midnight Sun -Game Over-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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Just an FYI, I'm a little busy for the next couple of days. I ought to still be active, in as much as I care to be during RVS, so I'm not declaring V/LA or anything, but I'm a little tired of getting called out for lurking when this happens, so just noting it now.
Anyway! It's good to see you again too, Blankface, but I have another friend I've owed for a long time now.
VOTE: Penguin_Alien
And so my plan to aggressively mislynch you begins. I bet you'll never see my revenge coming.-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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Heya Penguin!
UNVOTE:
For now.
In post 180, LicketyQuickety wrote:@Vyse, you have not posted in quite a while and have really said anything.
What are your thoughts on grapes?
So, just as an update - I had the opportunity to work with the former Olympic Taekwondo coach for the whole week. I've had opportunities to train with him before, but given my interest in the sport, this isn't something I'd be willing to pass up. The result has been that I've only loosely been following the game. (Though given my general preferences on RVS, meh.)
That's done now, so I'm going to sit back for a while, relax, de-stress a bit, and then I'll get my head into the game over the weekend.-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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In post 186, Klingoncelt wrote:In post 42, Morning Sun wrote:In post 24, VysePresident wrote:Just an FYI, I'm a little busy for the next couple of days. ...
It's good to see you again too, Blankface, but I have another friend I've owed for a long time now.
VOTE: Penguin_Alien[/v ]
And so my plan to aggressively mislynch you begins.I bet you'll never see my revenge coming.
...
Is this a slipp??!
I'm wondering the same thing.
Oh for pity's sake, Penguin is an old friend, and we were joking before the game.-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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Okay, reading through the thread now. Posts theoretically should follow in a couple hours, even if it's just my initial impressions. If I fall asleep on the floor, feel free to yell at me.
Mostly posting this so I have something to pressure me into starting. I'm exhausted as heck, and here mostly because I know I need to start somewhere.-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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M'kay, I'm going to stick with first summing up my first impressions for now, and start working in from there.
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Town - LQ(+), Fire(?), Bellaparte
NOTES:LQjust has a very straightforward, clear thought process for me to follow, and it's actually a little baffling to me that the general consensus seems to be the opposite, even among the other people who think he's Town. I'm not fully on the same page as him or anything, but it's not that hard and there's some good stuff mixed in there.Fireis really just meh, but I'm okay with the slightly careless attitude for now.Empoleon Bellaparteleans Town for me right now, mostly because they have a fairly clear thought process & flow to their style. Basically, it amounts to me not seeing an 'intentionality' or positioning behind their posts, and I'm okay with how they're engaging so far.
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Null - Suzune(+), Penguin, Morning Sun(+-? ), Marcrell, Grapes, BF
NOTESSuzuneis null because all the tonal issues & stuff are things I'm familiar with from her, and I think it's just part of her natural style. I like more about her engagement so far than I dislike, but there's not really enough for me to work with confidently yet.Penguinis just meh so far. 165 isn't terrible, but it's pushing only in directions I don't care much about, which bugs me a little. 245 Doesn't really change much either.Morning Sunis weird for me, because on the one hand, I like the aggressiveness to their style and focus I'm okay with. It's not obvtown by any stretch, but it's decent, and seems to flow so far. On the other, I disagree with almost everything Salamance is saying, and his pushes/Townreads all make me a little uncomfortable. I'm also irked about that 'scumslip' posts.Marcrellhas lots of aggressiveness, and I can kinda, sorta get him. I'm probably going to need to read him a couple times before I have anything actually useful to put here.Grapesis a bit of a back & forth for me. I didn't like his catch up stuff much in 90, but I'm okay with 256.Blankfaceis just meh so far. I don't feel like I have much to work with now, given that his normal style pings me like crazy.
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Mildly Scummy - Elbirn(-), Klingon(?), ShadedMelee(?)
Elbirinis largely a matter of gut for me at this point, but I feel like he's moving with the flow of the game. There's nothing special in what he's saying, and it's baffling to me how much credit some people are giving him for his catchup posts. It feels more like someone trying to seem Town more than an actual independent thought process.
Klingonis just meh. I don't actually care about the whole "She's saying Human repeatedly thing" in the least. I'm irked at her for adding to the "Vyse scumslipped" thing, which is why she's down here, but I don't feel particularly strongly about this one. I do want to see reads & stuff before I let it go, though.
ShadedMelee- I thought about putting him in with the Nulls, but I don't really care for any of his posts so far. I'd like to see the reads & stuff he's promising.
VOTE: Elbirn
Feeling this the most right now.
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LYNCH-IT-WITH-FIRE-SCUM!!!Eleven!! - Nobody yet.
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Also, here's a spoilered list of my train of thought notes & stuff I was writing before deciding to sum it up in a readslist.
Spoiler: Train of thought notes-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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@LQ - Well, as a general overview, I very much like to start by getting a feel for the personalities & thought processes of the players, and start feeling out the narrative(s) of the game in that light. My reads tend to start as something intuitive, but ultimately can be worked out into concrete thoughts. (My opinion is that gut is the first step in forming logical reads, but that's another story.) I'm self-aware as all get out, most of the time, I have to bite my tongue not to give self-meta or otherwise comment on my own play, because I feel it tends to be counterproductive more often than not. I don't really do much conversing for the most part- I generally form reads on my own, for the most part, then I start pushing like crazy once I actually have something. I think it's probably not always the best part of my play, and I've been experimenting a bit with alternate styles, but given that I'm not quite so comfortable with this game so far, I'm going to stick with what I know best. Generally speaking, I post few things, but try to make them quality.
I do use PoE sometimes, though it's generally one among many factors. I like most everything except 'basic scumtells', because those never work without a whole lot of situational context supporting them, in my opinion. [/rant]
That's the story of me, and just the brief overview at that.
That's the story of me.
Also, you just need to look at that post to see who I'd lynch. Iwillgladly take Elbirn to a lynch the way things are. Most of the other reads are of the 'Wait & see' variety.
More in a few, I think.-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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In post 305, penguin_alien wrote:In post 274, VysePresident wrote:@Penguin - I'm curious, what are your thoughts on Suzune now? Thoughts in general?
Town read right now. Her content was fine, what was pinging was more tone. In general, that this game isn't very readable for me so far; having trouble following so many people I haven't played with much/at all.
Firebringer feels townish, you seem town so far from what I'm remembering of your play/your analysis here. BlankFace has good content.
I don't get a good vibe off Morning Sun, and I can't bring myself to town-read Klingoncelt. The reactions seem town, but not in a genuine way? Might just not be on his wavelength. I think I played a game with scum-grapes right before fading out, and he doesn't remind me of that, but he also might have changed a lot in the past year.
Too tired to come up with conversation starters. Maybe tomorrow.
Mmm. I'd rather see more conversation than starters at this point. I just don't feel like you're doing all that much with the information you have so far. :/
Catch ya later.-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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In post 309, Klingoncelt wrote:Whaddya know, I finally have my first scumread, the weirdly aggro LQ.
Are you and Grapes buddies. then?
VOTE: Lickety
Break it up, ladies.
But seriously, what makes LQ so weirdly aggro, Klingon? What makes him & Grapes buddies?
Talk with me Klingon.-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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Mostly intuitive right now, and I'd really prefer to see him engaging so I can read him better.
Still, it feels less like someone actively thinking about the game, and more like someone trying to flow with the Town. If you think of gutreads as flavors, he has a sort of blandness to his reads that make me think there might be artificial flavors involved. I'm also intolerant of red & white dyes in my food, so I prefer to lynch them where possible.
Tortured metaphors aside, I'm pretty serious about this one at present.-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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Okay, my Elbirn vote is now dead serious. Gonna run through with my brain dead thoughts, and hopefully I'll be more coherent in the morning.
In post 325, Elbirn wrote:So if you'd all humor me, take a look at Klingons iso.
Done? Okay.
It's crap. Her first like 20 posts are fluff, casually throwing shade on a few players in a few instances, and she doesn't even take a stance on anyone until her 22nd post
I've read the ISO. Four times now. I would dearly love to hear how she was 'casually throwing shade' on a few players, and how it was obviously scummy.
Elbirn wrote:In post 209, Klingoncelt wrote:In post 200, Firebringer wrote:In post 199, Klingoncelt wrote:Guys, I'm really sick tonight. I can't focus on the game. I'll try again tomorrow.
Hope you feel better Klingon ;(
Even though my gut says you are scum.
@Marcell you just seem 'there' if you know what I mean? Like you are here but kind of in shadows a bit, not noticeable not drawing that much attention. Seems like what scum would do with all these seemingly TvTs going on.
*sigh* I am so tired of being scumread early in the game. How many times do people have to see my Town (or in this case Human) flip before they figure out that I'm not Scum in every damn game I play? It's depressing and demotivating.
Unimpressive ate..
Sure, I'll give you that. I'm calling it Null. You?
Elbirn wrote:In post 211, Klingoncelt wrote:I'm not getting any solid reads right yet, everyone ranges between probable Town(Human) and leaning Human.
I do need to hear more from ShadedMelee and Marcrell.
I'm going to say something right now. All summer long every game I've been in was p to some degree by players signing up then abandoning their slot after a couple of posts, Town & Scum alike. Unless there's a R/L emergency, I'm voting to lynch all replace-outs' slots.
Still has no reads. Still doing ate. Sets up for justifying lynching replace outs which is the laziest and crappiest thing I've heard
I would quite literally lynch you for this statement alone. "Setting up for justifying lynching replaceouts" Really?
Weak play on Klingon's part? Agreed. Weak =/= scummy, however. I don't see you actually exploring this to any degree. It's just a series of buzzwords. "No reads", "AtE", "Justifying easy lynches!". I don't buy it.
Elbirn wrote:In post 286, Klingoncelt wrote:In post 285, LicketyQuickety wrote:I don't like the Marcrell wagon right now if for nothing else, its just way too easy. There is no one really to speak of that is defending him. If he is scum, I would think it would be an easy lynch and/or he would replace out so that is what I am looking for. But this early in the game I just can't see that Marcrell is scum at this point. I suggest we find a new wagon because I think Marcrell is going to end up making his team look guilty the longer he's in the game as scum.
I'm not sure if Marcrell's Scum. In fact, due to meta, he's leaning Town for me. I've been in a couple games with him, both of us were Scum, all he did was make a couple vanity posts then he flaked. He's way more active in this game, that has him leaning Town for me.
This is her first read. It took nearly 300 posts to get a read out of her and it's pretty weak sauce.
It's pretty low caliber, yeah. This is why I tried talking with her, to get a feel for how she thought. Unless you have something you want to elaborate on, I'm seeing the way you latched onto her, and feel you're just jumping on an easy target.
Elbirn wrote:In post 287, Klingoncelt wrote:I'm having a hell of a time getting reads this game.
I don't know BlankFace, Grapes, Penguin_alien, ShadedMelee, or VysePresident.
I have trouble reading Firebringer and Elbirn.
The Morning Sun hydra, I'm not familiar with Gameplay/Umbreon, and Salamence seems subdued.
That leaves the Empoleon Bellapatre hydra, LicketyQuickety, Marcrell, and Suzune, and I have leaning to strong Town reads on them.
*sigh*
Look she rules out reading 5 people based on not having played with them, dismisses 3 more on "idk how to read them", and then throws out 4 townreads for everyone she eliminated and with no reason.
It irritates me too. Just not as much as your rush to judgment. You've been here for almost a year now. I'd expect that you've seen weak Townies before, along with frustrated & apathetic Townies. Why is this pinging you?
Because, see, I'm sure the response I'm going to wake up to tomorrow is how I'm defending Klingon, etcetra, but the major point here isn't my read on Klingon. She's Null, and I'm mostly apathetic to the case being made on her to date. It's a mess of buzzwords without substance. I don't care if you say she's 'doing AtE'. I can pull up a dozen melodramatic Townies without even searching my brain. I don't care if you say she doesn't have much substance. I want to know what you think is lacking, and if it fits into a pattern, or is just a simple anomaly. I want to see you exploring, I want to see you caring about what gets said & done.
As it is, all I see is a cheap push at a lynch. You're not building a case for your evidence. You're building evidence to suit your case. You're impressing a viewpoint rather than trying to understand the game.
This is scummy.
Elbirn wrote:
In post 288, Klingoncelt wrote:Oh, Elbirn, Firebringer, Grapes, you guys can vote for someone else now. I'm Town.
More ate
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Elbirn wrote:In post 309, Klingoncelt wrote:Whaddya know, I finally have my first scumread, the weirdly aggro LQ.
Are you and Grapes buddies. then?
VOTE: Lickety
This is just straight up omgus, there's nothing else to this.
Point 1) I added a period at the end of that for you. #CrisisAverted
Point 2) I agree. But again, what differentiates this from weak Town play? Better yet, have you even considered that alternative?
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4realz, Klingoncelt 2016. A vote for klingon is a vote for a better tomorrow.[/quote]
Only for a master of evil, Elbirn.
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So, I'm brain dead exhausted, as mentioned above, but looking back, I'm not entirely sure I'm getting my point across. I'm going to go ahead & sum up what I'm seeing, because I feel I might be letting the
1) Elbirn is not actually looking into why Klingon's play is scummy in specific. He's jumping on her for general buzzwords & 'scumtells' that ignores the tendency of Town to do similar things. It's not that he's voting her, because sometimes, AtE and/or apathy can be scummy. It's the fact that he has very little thought & substance behind the accusations, except on a very superficial level.
2) There's a certainty & comfortableness to Elbirn's read that seems to completely bypass basic Townie paranoia. There's no sense that he's worried he could be wrong. To be fair, there are some players who just shout how right they are until the cows come home, but that's not the attitude Elbirn is showing here. (And that sort of shouting tends to just drown out the paranoia, rather than remove it, I think, but that's neither here nor there.)
2.b) I have little faith in Day #1 Obvscum wagons, particularly when based on something superficial. All of the ideas presented in the post quoted above are extremely shallow. I tend to find that scum are more likely to be in the people pushing those wagons along more often than not.
2.c) His tone is bothering the heck out of me. I've kinda touched on this above, but there's no sign that he's anything but perfectly confident in his read, even though he doesn't have the signs of being a blind tunneler either. His read showed some time invested, if nothing else. It feels very much like he's falling into a character. I'm not sure if that comes across the way it does in my head, so here's another way of looking at it. A thoughtful Townie - the kind who take time to sort through evidence - will typically try to build their cases off of the evidence. Elbirn is building evidence based off of a pre-determined case.
He's not building a case, he's trying to impress a viewpoint.
3) One thing that's bothered me for a while, that I've touched on vaguely, is the way he's interacting with the game. He's "Engaging." He's "Forming Reads." He's "Moving the game along." These things are all good & well, in and of themselves, but there's no real flow or pattern to it. It's more like he's just checking boxes off of a list on "How to Appear Town", rather than actually being a Townie. There's very little in his posts that is particularly attention drawing - enough to dodge the accusations of not having content, and no more.
Eh, I'm still rambling, but hopefully it makes sense. Catch y'all tomorrow, when I'll hopefully be more coherent.-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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While I'm up anyway, here's a couple questions/thingies.
@Bella - I'd actually kinda like to hear why you think the cases on Klingon & Marc are good, if you don't mind?
Thoughts on Elbirn, in light of the little stuff I've touched on, and thoughts on Penguin would be appreciated as well. Kinda tired, so I think that'll do it for now.
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@Suzune - ....I'd actually really love an explanation on this one, because I'm legitimately confused as to how you could believe that, given that I've been challenging Klingon & Penguin lightly, while offering my thought process as I start forming reads.
I'm not usually a 'loud' player by default, and I don't feel a need to create noise for it's own sake. It's counterproductive, except when the games stalls & I need to force something to get the game moving. (This is more of a problem on my old site, where people are occasionally inclined to be tentative.) Right now, I'm reading the game as it forms, and building my opinions from there. I'll push my opinions when I feel like they're something worth pushing. I'll talk with people on things I think need talking about.
I'm curious what you find suspicious about this?
Night!-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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In post 347, LicketyQuickety wrote:@Vyce, Don't get the meta shift. Could you explain that a bit?
In post 348, LicketyQuickety wrote:BTW I had you at null and now Ireallyhave you at null. I don't get why you are not voting Marcrell.
Sorry, what? I don't understand what you mean by 'meta shift'?
I'm feeling a lot more strongly about Elbirn. Marcrell could go either way, while I'm pretty confident Elbirn is scum.-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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@Suzune - Heya! I really would like a response to my post earlier, regarding your statement about me being unhelpful. (especially in light of my embarrassing play in DrMcNinja Mafia.)
@Bella - Heya! Those thoughts/reads I requested, pretty please?
-Klingon can drop down my readslist a bit for continuing to push LQ blindly. I still kinda want to hear from her, though.
In post 374, LicketyQuickety wrote:In post 357, VysePresident wrote:In post 347, LicketyQuickety wrote:@Vyce, Don't get the meta shift. Could you explain that a bit?
In post 348, LicketyQuickety wrote:BTW I had you at null and now Ireallyhave you at null. I don't get why you are not voting Marcrell.
Sorry, what? I don't understand what you mean by 'meta shift'?
I'm feeling a lot more strongly about Elbirn. Marcrell could go either way, while I'm pretty confident Elbirn is scum.
Your tone was 10X more assertive than what you were doing previously. The fact that you are representing that you haven't observed this is really off putting.
Elb is playing way more pro-town than marcrell is, so I don't know why you are on the fence about him and are scumreading elb so hard :/
Don't see it, in regards to Marcrell. Also not interested in Fire yet, either.
Also, I was confused by what you meant about meta shift period. My exact tone varies substantially based on what I want to do, and in this case, it's still about lynching Elbirn. (Though I'm pretty sure I noted the bit about me hanging back until I find something interesting.
And I told you why. Please at least do me a favor & don't let that wall of text be for nothing, okay?-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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In post 368, Suzune wrote:That would be disappointing to lose Morning Sun.
Vyse, I can explain what I mean. I actually went back and read it while I was half asleep and I had the same opinion. You posted five times on page thirteen. Therefore that is the post my comments are directed at.
Let's break it down post by post. post 313 This post is just an all about me and my playing style post. It does not advance the game nor would it solidify anyone's reads or at least not my own. Everyone in this game is wait and seeing things and instead the most you have given us is your reads in 273, which are nice, but this post goes no where.
post 314 In this post you comment on someone else not using conversation starters, but you also choose not to start a conversation with Melee either.
post 315 This one is better as it leaves hanging questions.
Then you double vote. One wonders why you voted for Fire in the start if you were just going to change it back to your main target. Perhaps because you wanted to remind him he was not safe?
post 320 You say you want to see more from them. But you do not engage. So it is hard to understand why you would leave it hanging like that.
These posts are just not full to me. They are light. You say you want people to do something and then don't do it yourself. Or you say to want something but don't engage. They strike me as kind of fluffy then and unimpressive. My opinion on the matter.
Oh, sorry Suzune! I missed this post somehow.
313 was a direct response to LQ asking about my playstyle. Hence the focus on my playstyle.
314 was a challenge to Penguin to do a bit more, and specifically, I want to see her points of interest beyond the shallow ones listed. I know her playstyle, and I kinda feel this has been relatively weak, coming from her. That said, I'm giving her some leeway, because I know she hasn't played in a while.
The double vote was a joke, based off of FireBringer saying he was uncomfortable with being Townread by everyone. I then went back to the player I was actually scumreading, Elbirn.
320 came on the heels of a giant post pushing to lynch Elbirn. I'm pretty sure that ought to engage his attention, y'know. I'd rather see what points interest him than push him in any particular direction.-
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In post 410, VysePresident wrote:320 came on the heels of a giant post pushing to lynch Elbirn. I'm pretty sure that ought to engage his attention, y'know. I'd rather see what points interest him than push him in any particular direction.
Minor correction. This actually apparently came just prior to the posting spree with the read on Elbirn. Same thing applies, but more generally speaking.
I need to head to bed now. I'm having trouble keeping track of things like what the heck I'm doing, and that's always a bad sign.-
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In post 408, Morning Sun wrote:In post 368, Suzune wrote:That would be disappointing to lose Morning Sun.
Laughing. Oh ok getting back to reading
Pedit: Yes Vyse you are now def town together with LQ imo. Also I am feeling the same way for Elb, especially since I don't see scumKling right now.
#BFF-
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So, meant to get to this sooner, but all my friends seem to be falling apart, and I've spent the last 12+ hours dealing with various forms of depression & unnecessary drama, pretty much straight.
Going to hold off posting much until tomorrow, but I'll run through some simple stuff.
I will say that I don't really care about any of current wagons much at all. It's both awkward & frustrating for me, because I don't want to be one of those guys who yells at the entire thread, but at the same time, Elbirn is screaming scum to me to an extreme, and I don't get why everyone's ignoring him. Maybe I'll have a chance to explain it better in the morning, but the best I can say at the moment is that everything he's saying is shallow & perfunctory. His Town reads are unimpressive, and his play feels like checking off a list. His commitment to Klingon's wagon is based off a hyperbolic reading of her play - in other words, he's using a lot of rhetoric to call her play something it really isn't. Her reads are shallow to date, not 'sly pushing'. Her commitment to lynching replacements is a bad idea, but realistically, he's making a mountain out of a molehill. It's the kind of thing you do when you know you're expected to have scumreads, and
Marcrell is meh, Klingon is meh, Shaded is meh. (And given Elbirn's Townread on Shaded, I'm inclined to believe Shaded actually is Town at the moment, just because I don't think Elbirn's the type to get bold with his scumbuddies, but I do think he'd like the cred of not being on a mislynch.)
That's where I'm at.
@Penguin - Because I can mostly follow LQ's thought processes. There are a few things I'm watching in regards to his timing & commitment, but I can see it as a coherent - if very messy - train of thought. He's lost me a little recently, but I'm reviewing at the moment. Not sure how to explain it better at the moment.
Anyway, I'm tired, and a little depressed myself now, so take care all! I'm going to hit the sack.-
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Not going to lie, I've been putting off reading for a while, while things sort themselves out. STill going to try to be useful.
Bella is kinda dropping down my reads, but I'm not sure why yet. Mostly posting this as a reminder to explore later.
I really like the Gameplay head of MS, even if Sala is being kinda meh.
My thoughts on Shaded - Don't know, don't care too much. I don't think the shot on Penguin was a bad one for Town to take under the circumstances, honestly, but meh.
I'm going to vote Elbirn again, and procrastinate on actually figuring out how to explain my read, because it's late, again, and I'm an idiot, again.
VOTE: Elbirn-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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@Bella - Quick summary is that Sala is making a bunch of pushes I don't care for, while Gameplay made sense even when I disagreed with him, so I liked his half of the hydra enough to give them a light Town read. I'm getting meh on you because I don't see you growing much beyond the initial pattern I'd noted, but it's not something I'm feeling particularly strongly about at the moment. I mostly just posted because I tend to set my thoughts on the table, and because I needed a reminder to check into you. (Putting that for after I refresh myself on the basic game, and why I'm scumreading Elbirn so strongly.)
@LQ, while I'm on & working stuff out, can you tell me why you think I'm not genuine, and why inactivity is factoring into your reads at all? I'd really like an explanation on that. (also, here's a scumgame, here's a recent Town. Tell me which one I'm more active in. I'll give you the whole list, if you think I'm being selective. I do have active Towngames, but when real life stuff happens, as it always does anymore, I've learned that it's so much easier to make stuff up than to actually solve the game. Honestly kinda frustrated with people pushing this.
That'll be all about me for now, I think. Mostly getting this up because it's an easy warmup to start engaging with the game again.-
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In post 49, Firebringer wrote:Ohhh, thats a scum duo lol.
I don't know if I should be scared or reassured. If you are scum it should be easy to figure out, if you are town you will look just enough scummy to look town (That make sense?)
Out of curiosity, where's your read at on MS now, Fire?-
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In post 67, LicketyQuickety wrote:In post 66, Suzune wrote:
One need not change their meta, just make it so you interpret it differently. It is more common then you seem to think. I sometimes feel like we are on two different pages~In post 65, LicketyQuickety wrote:I think you underestimate how difficult it is to change ones meta.
Out of curiosity what do you hope to gain by asking who we have played with? The information to me seems kind of irrelevant because our previous performances with each other do little to affect our current alignment. However, the positive yield is that we are all discussing.
People can change their behavior, but they cannot change who they are. Do you understand that?
Dangit, I liked you so much here, LQ. I was hoping you actually 'got it', so to speak.-
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Stupid weather. I'm having connection issues, and I've been falling asleep waiting for WiFi to get a post in, so I'm just going to copy & paste what thoughts I have here, and call it a night.
I think the thing that gets to me the most in reading this thread is how many times it stalls in a morass of stuff that...well, honestly, I don't really care about. We have buzzwords flying all over the place - AtE, 'Misunderstandings', Inactivity, overreactions, 'slyly pushing mislynches', "Anti-Town play" (I hate that last buzzword in particular, to be honest.) However, the context behind these buzzwords is either incredibly flimsy, or completely irrelevant to actual alignments.
I think it be worth linking to this Mafia Discussion Thread about buzzwords & the like. It's not that they're always invalid, so much as frequently abused, and I believe this thread in particular would find it worth a look. (For instance, I tend to use meta a heck of a lot, with decent results, though I'm better able to gauge players I've actually played with 'live', than games I read after the fact.) I particularly recommend Brian Skies Post #21, but I can't exactly quote it here due to size.
Actually, having reread the thread in full, I'm particularly curious to hear from Elbirn now. His post there seems to agree with my reasons for scumreading him.
In post 7, Elbirn wrote:In post 0, Varsoon wrote:
Occam's Razor:"I don't want to overthink this game but I want to be justified for taking the path of least resistance."
WIFOM:"I can't accurately assess if you're rusing me or not."
IIOA:"Nice points but I'd like to disregard them."
Meta:"Because you've played other games on site, I want to add perceived validity to whatever my point is."
It's like you're me.
AtE & "slying pushing mislynches", Elbirn? How would you describe those two phrases, if not similar to these buzzwords here? Why am I wrong for thinking you should know better, again?
Then there are the gambits, based at best on quirks & personal tells I don't care much for, or at worst, less than that. (These enjoy a particularly irked spot in my heart after I got tunneled the entirety of the last game I played based on somebody trying to pull a gambit on me to find my alignment. He actually had some really good stuff mixed into his read, but the end result was that I was Town, and just barely survived by fighting his scumread on me tooth & nail with the other players, since he was so confident he was completely ignoring me.)
Honestly, I don't care about most any of this, because, in my experience & opinions, none of this is particularly relevant to alignment. The main things I look for is what interests people, when it interests them, and why. It's something I call 'direciton' & 'positioning', because scum's goal are ultimately different from the Town's. Town needs to lynch scum, scum need to survive until they equal Town, with mislynches & NKs to aid them. So, look for the people trying to blend in, the people aiming to look Town, rather than solve the game. (It goes a bit deeper than that, because there's an essentially infinite number of strategies for scum to do this, but I don't want this rant to get too long. It just takes flexibility & commonsense to get around most of them.)
In other words, anybody can look like Town when the spotlight is on them. The question is, how do they start acting when they're not aiming for Towncred. Do they still Towntell, or does it fade? How about when their strategy suddenly falters, without warning? (I'm rambling now, so I'll cut this off here.)
Sometimes, having such a different perspective than the rest of the game is helpful for me, because it lets me take an outside perspective while scum are playing to their audience. Usually, they don't really 'get it' anymore than I do thanks to knowing alignments, but they're busy looking for openings & vulnerabilities rather than solving the game. This time, I've had a bit of trouble, just because it's tricky to get a grasp on the narrative, and specifically, what people think is important as a group. It doesn't help that I haven't been able to obsess over the game like I used to, when I first started playing Mafia. That's why
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That does all lead into the scumread I have on Elbirn. It's a matter of his play not following the personality I've seen from him, as well as resembling a chess game more than the typical paranoid Townie. (And even more experienced Townies are paranoid. They're just better at controlling it.)
You don't always want to go straight for the target in any strategy game, but this is particularly true of Mafia, where scum are trying to present an image. Mislynches are nice, but secondary to survival, which (ironically) is why bussing is such a common strategy. (And I love manipulating scum into bussing early. )
Elbirn stands out because of the manner of his read on Klingon, in particular. It's not that Klingon is some impressive bastion of Town play, because frankly, she's not in the least. However, Elbirn is consistently reframing the narrative in the case he had on her that I dissected earlier. Calling someone out for as bad a suggestion as auto-lynching replacements is fair, however, calling it a 'sly push for easy mislynches' is a ridiculous stretch. This is the kind of thing that would never get massive support outside of a particularly crazy Town, and Elbirn's been around a while. I find it very hard to believe that he thought this was actually remotely plausible, or that Klingon would think that way. Frankly, if anyone's 'slyly pushing mislynches', I would believe it was Elbirn.
I've also frequently seen scum use that line before, in exactly the same manner. Your mileage may vary, but it's something I dislike very strongly about his play.
Outside of Klingon, he's constantly feeling out various lines of thought - and I don't entirely have too much problem with people pushing a bunch of reads & all that. It's part of solving the game. The problem is the 'feeling out' part of the statement, because he's constantly directing suspicion outward, and looking at where it sticks - it's too efficient, for lack of a better term. As a general rule, Townies are the hypocrital, paranoid messes that don't know what they're doing. Elbirn is too polished, too Town on the surface, and not enough when you actually look for any depth.
Perhaps think of it this way - A famous bank robber is asked why he robs banks, and he just shrugs and says "That's where the money's at". It's kinda like that in Mafia. Town cred is worth more than gold in this game, and scum are naturally going to gravitate to where they know to find it. Good play is good play, nothing more, at least outside of context. Same with bad/inactive play. Effort is not indicative of alignment, to steal the line. Honestly, Klingon hasn't impressed me this game, but neither has the case against her - If she's scum, I think it's going to be for different reasons than the ones brought against her to day. (There's a reason I'm pressuring her for reads, and such. I want to see her commit, instead of continue what I believe is just a mutually bad tunnel.)
Or let me put this another way. Keeping my theory in mind, can someone look through his play & tell me what's so Townlike about it? I honestly don't think it'll be easy to come up with all that much, if you actually dissect it. I honestly don't see it. I see him going through the motions of Townreading people & pushing the game forward, but these things aren't particularly alignment indicative on their own. These things are just basic good play for either alignment. Where are the signs of any depth to his posts? Why is he hard-pressing Klingon based on "AtE" & "Sly pushes", when they resemble the same buzzwords he dismissed outside the game thread? (And I know they're technically different buzzwords from the quote I linked & all, but it's the same logic. If the four Elbirn mentioned are shallow & useless, what makes these two any different?)
I don't know. I always have a lot of trouble getting my thoughts across to people, because a lot of it is intuitive, and it's hard to convince people who don't also have a similar intuitive take on things. Sometimes, I even rely on buzzwords myself, to sort of sum up my thoughts, particularly when they just start forming. ('Genuine' is a word I use a lot, for instance.) The thing is, I can always go deeper into them when I have to do so, and it's a constant growing process. I don't see that coming from Elbirn.
Elbirn stands out to me the most, because I'm constantly seeing him hitting the basic level 'Towntells' - the ones that remotely experiences scum know to hit, and are very fakeable - and those Towntells don't combine to make a pattern or flow.
Does any of this make sense? Please?
Other reads later. I'm tired, I'm rambling & repeating myself, and I've spent enough time on MS for one night.-
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In post 679, LicketyQuickety wrote:In post 677, VysePresident wrote:Can you show me a couple of his Town/Scum games, just so I can get a feel for him? (This offer is obviously open to Elbirn too.)
Like, I don't know. My read on Blankface last game was similar, and backfired hard, but at the same time, there's kinda a lot here.
How are you still a goon? Also I think it would be a really good idea for you to start a wiki on yourself. I might just be doing on for you if after this game I feel you impressed me in some way.
I'm still a goon because they upped the posting requirements (sending me back to goon.), and I don't usually post a lot per game. I tend to go for a quality over quantity style. I've been experimenting with getting louder, and playing with different tones, but my scumhunting ability seems to go down a little when I do.
As for the Wiki thing, I've been lazy, and felt it might come across as a little arrogant back when I hadn't played all that much on MS.
Also, my best play is currently a bit behind me, because I can't give games the same focus I used to. Beforehand, I was obsessive to a fault, now I just say what I'm thinking as I think it.-
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@Fire - I'm just doing a surface level readthrough right now, but the Elb in that game seems a lot more engaged, so to speak. I wish
@Suzune - I don't actually think we're all that different then. It's not that I care about him using buzzwords, it's the manner in which he uses them. You're a lot like a really good friend of mine I like to play with, in some ways. I think you're smart, and a decent player, but you also have trouble valuing less tangible evidence, while I consider it to be the primary (not even secondary, but outright best) way of reading people. I think that's our major point of divergence here.
Also, don't let me get too much on your nerves. I'm going 'bully' you a little (Read: Pressure & reread) you on occasion, because said friend has a habit of fooling me when she's scum, and I think you're close enough in style to do the same.
That said, I think at this point, there's not much worth saying in the tapes that can't be said here, unless it's a PR result. I get what you mean, in theory, but I really don't see any reason to pop off a tape to somebody saying "Hey, wanna lynch Elb?" Besides, I'd actually rather Elb see my points, because his reaction interests me. So far, it's Null, so I'm waiting for his promised response to me.
Also, yes, yes, yes at reading between the lines.
@Elb - I'd actually love to hear from you right now, because I am still reading your slot, whether you believe it or not. THat said, I'm darned if I'm not going to push the closest thing I have to a clear scumread, even if it's for reasons nobody seems to give a darn about. Also, lol at getting called a lyncher. Elb, have you ever played with Wisdom, by any chance? He's kinda like the choleric verison of me in many respect - I'm a lot more mild-mannered, but I seem to read things much the same way. Check a recent scumgame of mine. If I want someone lynched & don't care about their alignment, I get them lynched. Period. It's harder as Town, because again, intuitive reads are rarely appreciated outside of certain groups, but it's how I think, and it's worked okay for me for the most part.-
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P-Edit - @Blank - Gonna add you to the Elbirn list. I'd also be curious as to your thoughts on Marcrell & LQ.
@Fire - I'm going to add tot that cutoff sentence a little. The Elb I'm seeing in the game you linked me to seems a lot more engaged & pushy, for lack of a better term. My feelings on Elb this game are that he's a bit stiff here, in a manner that coincides with the play to be expected from scum trying to hit basic Towntells - In other words, scum playing a safe game.
Riddle me this, then. Why do you see him as Town? Like, elaborate on what you mean by 'playing to his Town meta' please, so I can get a better picture, if you don't mind.
Thank you.
@LQ & Suz - Use the tapes as you see fit. Just offering my 02.-
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In post 751, BlankFace wrote:I've given my thoughts on LQ. He's town as hell. He's my top town. Find me one post you don't find genuine and I'll revise that. I'll try to ISO the others later tonight/tomorrow. I have to throw together a Pathfinder game in 8 minutes right now.
Sorry, I meant Klingon. I don't know how I got the two mixed up. >_<-
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Oh, forgot that LQ. Sorry.
I'll get to it in a bit, because homework is a thing. (Excuse #789,390.21)
I guess it's the fact that his reads don't seem to be genuine, if you'll excuse the term. He's acting like Klingon's more off the wall statements were some kind of 'sly attempt to line up mislynches' and just generally setting a tone that wasn't there. It was less than brilliant on her part, but I didn't like the way he was characterizing the play. It's hyperbolic, and looks like a forced attempt to push somebody.
He's had other light reads in play, but I haven't seen them grow, or go anywhere. (Yes, I know you can get me for some degree of hypocrisy, since I've failed to explore much outside of Elb. I'm really freaking burnt out after the last game I just played. (I was Town fighting off a mislynch tooth & nail against scum & two of the strongest & loudest Town voices for literally the whole game. My posting count was just about double the next highest poster, and that's exhausting. )
I'm not really talking about not having reads, or the times when he's not posting, because for all I know, that's just real life stuff. It's more how he does it. I'll try again later tonight. So freaking tired.
See, the reason I'm pushing him over anyone else, despite my relative disengagment with the game, is that I don't care very much for the cases being presented currently, just about as a whole. Don't know what to say, except they're not resonating with me. Dunno, I almost said the heck with it & joined the Marcrell wagon for the same post Blank did, but I'm waffling like idiot.
Compare that to one read I'm moderately confident in, and yeah. There you go.
I'll try to stop being useless soon. I'm tired of replacing out, and I don't intend to do it yet a-freaking-gain.
Would
Can you tell me wh-
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In post 725, Empoleon Bellaparte wrote:I think it was...fire who said he'd never played flipless before? I've never played flip OR nightless, so I am at a bit of a loss rn...I'm almost tempted to vote BF :s
Who has played nightless/flipless before?
Suz, i think you are working towards ideas, but I don't know if that fully works - how many scum do you think were gonna be on that wagon, as we know there are 2 lots. Also, in terms of the tapes...what were you thinking?
People I could still lynch: BF, Kling, Marc. Remember that SM was kinda the counter lynch to the last two...
Could I get an update on your reads/thoughts right now, Emp? Kinda curious why you want these three. Thanks.
I've not played nightless/flipless before. It's a bit aggravating for me, but meh.-
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Oi vey.
So, I'm going to try & finish those long-promised reads tonight, or just accept that I can't play Mafia anymore & replace out, and avoid MS for the long term.
That said, I have to ask, does anyone else think my case on Elb boils down to 'buzzwords' still? Because I kinda want to hit him for misrepresenting my case on him, after repeated explanatinos to the contrary, but things have been bad enough this game I kinda want to check first.
Also, Elb, I'd love to hear why I'm on your non-Town list please. TY. LQ's isn't great, but at least a reason.-
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In post 835, VysePresident wrote:Oi vey.
So, I'm going to try & finish those long-promised reads tonight, or just accept that I can't play Mafia anymore & replace out, and avoid MS for the long term.
That said, I have to ask, does anyone else think my case on Elb boils down to 'buzzwords' still? Because I kinda want to hit him for misrepresenting my case on him, after repeated explanatinos to the contrary, but things have been bad enough this game I kinda want to check first.
Also, Elb, I'd love to hear why I'm on your non-Town list please. TY. LQ's isn't great, but at least a reason.
Due to my internet dying all night, (As far as I know - I gave up after 4AM) I'm moving the timeframe to me reading through the thread this afternoon, and moving with reads/questions/stuff this evening/night.-
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So, I'm just going to post my stream of thought as I'm reading through the thread - I'm going to try to treat the thread like I'm starting from scratch, but I'm not going to lie, I'm biased, and it's definitely effecting how I view things at this moment. I'll go a few pages at a time, and once that's done, I'll try to sum up my more complete thoughts. I'm mostly posting this to look back at later, and hopefully get some questions/interactions my way to help me ease back into the game.
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1st Page - Typical RVS stuff. Meh. Klingon's a little aggressive already, while Fire is irritating me. Neither is particularly meaningful at this point. LQ is a bit on the opinionated/active side, which is nice & all. Elbirn is moving the game along, which is nice. EmpBella is interesting, in that I'm not sure whether she's being semi-serious, or not. Leaning not, but let's watch how these last three develop. {FutureVyse: This is a note to myself, and is based around regauging my reads around these two from scratch-ish.}
2nd Page - Meh on MS's #28. Don't find it impressive, but some people play that way. Let's watch. LQ really seems kinda jittery & all over the place, and I don't particularly sympathize with #32, but that's not impressive, given that LQ seems to be rather opinionated, and I don't think our styles quite mesh at this point. I actually kinda like how LQ disengages from MS a little.
Was it really Gameplay who called me out for "Scumslipping" in #42? Disappointed in you, dude. Suzune is posting a fair bit, but I'm not really making much of her right now. I keep having to remind myself she's there :/
3rd Page: A lot of back & forth with LQ, Suzune, & MS. Mostly coming out liking LQ, being okay with MS (I think they'd be moving the game along regardless of alignment, but I"m okay with them in general so far, if that makes sense.) and feeling wishy-washy about Suz. (She's not offering much to work with, and the friend she reminds me of has a bad habit of doing the same as scum. :/ ) A few minor pieces of the puzzle, and some things to look at, but no major red flags.
Elbirn's #64 isn't hugely impressive or anything, but still nothing serious - it's shallow, but not alarmingly so at this stage of the game. #70 is kinda bad though - it's both a very shallow look into MS based on easy site meta (Like, it's a playstyle thing, not an alignment thing.) & marks a point where shifts from pushing for reactions to stating opinions - including a mild poke at LQ. It's justified within the context of his post, but it's still darn convenient to be sending out feelers here, at this point in the game. (And to be fair, I don't think it's really hard to justify oneself as even moderately experienced scum. Hence all my reading between the lines here.) Mildly-to-moderately scumreading Elbirn here. He's hard on my watchlist at this point. #73 is also a cheap shot at Suz, and while it doesn't bother me quite as much as #70 did (It fits the mold of reaction baiting again.) it's still a feeler pointed towards a potentially soft target. Coincidences aren't looking great here. :/
4th Page: Grapes puts out a series of minor posts, and meh. LQ' s being pushy, which is okay, even if I'm not sure what to make of the specific way he approached things. (I'd rather Grapes not do something crazy.) I'm noting I'm getting into the habit of saying "Person X is okay, but meh", and I'm trying to think of somethign more to say, but this late at night is making things ridiculous. 2 freaking 30 AM. I think Grapes reads are technically correct so far, but I want to see what he does with them - I do agree that Umbreon asking about me 'scumslipping' was mildy bad, but we'll see. I had been so sure that was Sala, for some reason. :/
Grapes is getting more Townpoints as the page continues, mostly because his aggressiveness & manner seem to sync with what I'm familiar with from last game. LQ gets Meh points for voting Grapes. I also can see the train of thought in how he reached his conclusions, and sympathize with it to some degree, which is nice. I disagree with him in regards to Elbirn, though.
Thought I posted before this point in the thread. Dangit, me.
5th Page: LQ, can you tell me what you want me to get out of the thread linked in #101? Because maybe it's just exhaustion speaking, but I'm not following, unless you want me to read the thread for something?
Gonna wrap up for tonight soon, but I want to finish this page first.
Don't agree with LQ's #112 at all. MS is hard-pushing Suzune, sorta, and I wish they were around for me to follow up on. Elbirn is posting, and it really doesn't shift my read much. It's mostly just chatting & basic play that doesn't particularly stand out. (Why is this so Pro-Town, Fire? LQ? There's nothing here requiring him to commit or take a risk. Pretty sure this pattern continues later on.) Really wish I could get more info from MS as to why they're pushing Suzune so hard. She's pretty Null so far, and I wouldn't mind seeing her pressured, but I'm finding the hard-push to be an overreaction at first glance.
So far, LQ is leaning Townie, albeit a very jittery, opinionated one, who's all over the place. ( If you don't mind me butting in with my two cents, assuming you're Town, if you'd just stop getting lost in wild theory tangents, and played a more steady, solid game, I think you'd improve rapidly, and maybe even get to the top tier. Just my opinion, off the top of my tired brain.)
Grapes is pretty solid so far, for a start. He's going to need more to get a better read, but for now, I'm willing to give him a Null-Town read, leaning more Town than not.
MS is the kind of player who's pushing the game forward, which is a positive, and I'd have figured they'd be active enough for me to get a better read than the Meh-NullTown I currently have on them, as of Page 5. I'm kinda hoping Vedith can enter the game hard, and help me make up for lost time on this slot.
Fire is a bit too silly at the moment, but trending slightly towards being useful. Sometimes, I'm inclined to suspect he's an alt of somebody I know here, but eh. I kind ofwantto call him Null-Town, but I want to watch this develop for a while.
Blankface has been technically accurate in his posts so far (Again, as of Page 5), and I kinda like his read on Grapes, if only because I sympathize & share it. Null, with hints of Town.
Suz doesn't really have a lot to her name, and even if I were 100% sure Elbirn was scum, distancing is a thing. She's Null at present, but I'm going to watch this one carefully. I keep forgetting she's in the game, and that's not a good thing.
Elb is bothering me the most at this point, for reasons stated above, and that will be stated again when I sum up my thoughts more cohesively.
Think that's all for now.-
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In post 861, Elbirn wrote:In post 854, LicketyQuickety wrote:In post 853, VysePresident wrote:You up for chatting later tonight? I kinda wanted to work your slot out anyway, and it'd be nice to engage with somebody in the internim.
You do realize how this looks like a scum slip right?
...I mean. It does seem kinda out of place the way it's not clear who's being talked to. But you'd have to be really thick to slip out of your pt and vyse seems like he's smarter than that.
Thank you.
I'll lynch you last, for this.
But seriously, can I get a more detailed overview of your thoughts? Because it's potentially useful for my read on you. Thanks in advance.
Heading for bed now.-
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In post 879, LicketyQuickety wrote:In post 874, VysePresident wrote:If you don't mind me butting in with my two cents, assuming you're Town, if you'd just stop getting lost in wild theory tangents, and played a more steady, solid game, I think you'd improve rapidly, and maybe even get to the top tier. Just my opinion, off the top of my tired brain.
If you really feel this way and are not doing it as scum manipulating mah feels then we can talk about a hydra after the game. How does that sound?
BTW this post was like 95% IIoA. I know people don't like that term because it usually amounts to nothing, but really, from what I understand about IIoA it means all you're doing is giving a rundown of what happened for some quick towncred as scum. I've seen it Twice used flawlessly as scum and was fooled so bad one of those times that it made me look like I was tripping over my own tied shoelaces. So yes, at this point its something I watch.
I'd absolutely be up for it, LQ, if you don't mind the chronic difficulties I've been having with activity recently. I won't leave you to hang, but I probably am not going to be the leader in any hydra unless I get a really strong read. (I don't lie about this sort of thing, regardless of alignment. I think you have a mildly bizarre thought process, but there's some really, really good stuff in there, if you can slow down & find a more steady pace. Just my opinion.)
The post I typed was stream of consciousness style - here is this thing, here's how I perceive it, let's see if it develops in a way that fits with how I perceive it to be. I'm having difficulties reengaging with the game, because y'know, 30-odd pages, and I kind of let the thread go. This is my way of easing back into the game. If you want to hit me up with questions, or challenge me, or whatever, it's welcome. I intend to sum it up & give my filtered reads after I'm done catching up on the thread, if you're worried about me not providing analysis.
Also, people are having a lot of difficulty understanding my thought process, based on all the comments thrown my way, and I feel it's both necessary & very relevant to explain my thought process in detail, because otherwise, I'm either going to have sit back as a scum read coasts by, or I'm just going to spend the game yelling how right I totally am & how you guys need to listen to me. I typically fall for the former, and regret it immensely, while the latter are the kind of people irk the crap out of me.
This seems to be the best solution.-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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You mean roles can be modified?
The horror.
Mocking aside, this is kinda what I mean when I say you're opinionated and get way too lost in tangents. If Blankface were scummy, okay, but I don't see it, and all you're hitting him for is trivial stuff. (And, no offense, but that recent post on Suz was awful)
So no, not interested in this wagon.-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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Decided to cut this down to something bite-sized, because I was getting a little more snarky with LQ than I'd like. (In my defense, it's late at night, and I'm really irritable at everything for no reason.)
@LQ - I'd like you to back up your statement on how my reads are feeling fake - I get that it's apparently a gutread, but even a gutread can be explained. I kinda feel like you're turning on me because I'm disagreeing with you a lot here, and it's irking the crap out of me. (And I'm tired of stuff like that last statement - and probably this one too - getting called AtE. I post my thoughts as they stand, to the fullest I can coherently manage. That includes details such as the above. I've been called for AtE for almost a year now, and it's so freaking oblivious to what AtE actually is. Having emotions or opinions is not the same as deliberately Appealing to Emotion.)
(Also, if you think this is outside my normal style, I'll point you to Penguin's 305, and the fact that she's played the most games with me out of anyone on this site, except maybe Bro. It's not a definitive statement on my alignment by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm so freaking tired of getting called out for my playstyle anymore. Even the most superficial glance at any game I played in seriously would show that I always play like this to varying degrees. (I had a couple games a while back where I screwed up & ended up replacing out. Those don't count.)) Want links?
In before you call me out for being too defensive in this post, or too self-aware, or whatever.
Anyway, quick dumb post done, getting back to the game.-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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@LQ - I'm on 167 (again), and I kinda want to ask if you could lay out for me how you went from seeing Elbirn as mildly scummy to so darn Town? Like, one of the things I'm noticing about you is that your thought process is all over the place this game, and I sorta would appreciate you taking that readslist, and just explain how you got there in general?
Basically, transparency is a nice thing.-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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Like, 325 is probably the single largest thing I have against Elbirn's play to date. It's a case that rests on rather weak justifications, that I've run through before. Calling her play bad would have been fair, but 'slyly setting up mislynches'? This case from a player who's been here over a year? And strikes me as moderately intelligent?
How the heck do you like it? I'd like to refer you to 326 to see someone who kinda gets it. It's not a perfect summary of my thoughts, but it'll do for the moment.-
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VysePresident Mafia Scum
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I'm so freaking burnt out right now, but I don't want to replace out a-freaking-gain, not when I actually have stuff. :/ (and before you fuss me about activity LQ, check the time this is posted, and account for me being on Central Standard Time - it's 5:30 AM. These hours are the only ones I seem to be able to post at anymore.)