Mini 1710: A Midnight Sun -Game Over-

[VysePresident]

Just an FYI, I'm a little busy for the next couple of days. I ought to still be active, in as much as I care to be during RVS, so I'm not declaring V/LA or anything, but I'm a little tired of getting called out for lurking when this happens, so just noting it now.

Anyway! It's good to see you again too, Blankface, but I have another friend I've owed for a long time now.

VOTE: Penguin_Alien

And so my plan to aggressively mislynch you begins. I bet you'll never see my revenge coming.

[VysePresident]

Quick post for now. (I'm running to work almost literally now.)

LQ - Can you tell me how much Mafia you've played to date?

-I've played a lot with Penguin before, but it's been a while, and was on another site. I've recently played with Blankface, Suzune, Grapes as well.

[VysePresident]

Heya Penguin!

UNVOTE:

For now.

@Vyse, you have not posted in quite a while and have really said anything.

What are your thoughts on grapes?

So, just as an update - I had the opportunity to work with the former Olympic Taekwondo coach for the whole week. I've had opportunities to train with him before, but given my interest in the sport, this isn't something I'd be willing to pass up. The result has been that I've only loosely been following the game. (Though given my general preferences on RVS, meh.)

That's done now, so I'm going to sit back for a while, relax, de-stress a bit, and then I'll get my head into the game over the weekend.

[VysePresident]

Just an FYI, I'm a little busy for the next couple of days. ...

It's good to see you again too, Blankface, but I have another friend I've owed for a long time now.

VOTE: Penguin_Alien[/v ]

And so my plan to aggressively mislynch you begins.

I bet you'll never see my revenge coming.

...
Is this a slipp??!

I'm wondering the same thing.

Oh for pity's sake, Penguin is an old friend, and we were joking before the game.

[VysePresident]

Okay, reading through the thread now. Posts theoretically should follow in a couple hours, even if it's just my initial impressions. If I fall asleep on the floor, feel free to yell at me.

Mostly posting this so I have something to pressure me into starting. I'm exhausted as heck, and here mostly because I know I need to start somewhere.

[VysePresident]

M'kay, I'm going to stick with first summing up my first impressions for now, and start working in from there.

---

Town - LQ(+), Fire(?), Bellaparte

NOTES:

LQ

just has a very straightforward, clear thought process for me to follow, and it's actually a little baffling to me that the general consensus seems to be the opposite, even among the other people who think he's Town. I'm not fully on the same page as him or anything, but it's not that hard and there's some good stuff mixed in there.

Fire

is really just meh, but I'm okay with the slightly careless attitude for now.

Empoleon Bellaparte

leans Town for me right now, mostly because they have a fairly clear thought process & flow to their style. Basically, it amounts to me not seeing an 'intentionality' or positioning behind their posts, and I'm okay with how they're engaging so far.

---

Null - Suzune(+), Penguin, Morning Sun(+-? ), Marcrell, Grapes, BF

NOTES

Suzune

is null because all the tonal issues & stuff are things I'm familiar with from her, and I think it's just part of her natural style. I like more about her engagement so far than I dislike, but there's not really enough for me to work with confidently yet.

Penguin

is just meh so far. 165 isn't terrible, but it's pushing only in directions I don't care much about, which bugs me a little. 245 Doesn't really change much either.

Morning Sun

is weird for me, because on the one hand, I like the aggressiveness to their style and focus I'm okay with. It's not obvtown by any stretch, but it's decent, and seems to flow so far. On the other, I disagree with almost everything Salamance is saying, and his pushes/Townreads all make me a little uncomfortable. I'm also irked about that 'scumslip' posts.

Marcrell

has lots of aggressiveness, and I can kinda, sorta get him. I'm probably going to need to read him a couple times before I have anything actually useful to put here.

Grapes

is a bit of a back & forth for me. I didn't like his catch up stuff much in 90, but I'm okay with 256.

Blankface

is just meh so far. I don't feel like I have much to work with now, given that his normal style pings me like crazy.

---

Mildly Scummy - Elbirn(-), Klingon(?), ShadedMelee(?)

Elbirin

is largely a matter of gut for me at this point, but I feel like he's moving with the flow of the game. There's nothing special in what he's saying, and it's baffling to me how much credit some people are giving him for his catchup posts. It feels more like someone trying to seem Town more than an actual independent thought process.

Klingon

is just meh. I don't actually care about the whole "She's saying Human repeatedly thing" in the least. I'm irked at her for adding to the "Vyse scumslipped" thing, which is why she's down here, but I don't feel particularly strongly about this one. I do want to see reads & stuff before I let it go, though.

ShadedMelee

- I thought about putting him in with the Nulls, but I don't really care for any of his posts so far. I'd like to see the reads & stuff he's promising.

VOTE: Elbirn

Feeling this the most right now.

---

LYNCH-IT-WITH-FIRE-SCUM!!!Eleven!! - Nobody yet.

---

Also, here's a spoilered list of my train of thought notes & stuff I was writing before deciding to sum it up in a readslist.

Spoiler: Train of thought notes

-I'm having a tricky time connecting with this game. It's weird jumping back & forth from the meta of my homesite to here.

-Going to stick with first impressions for now, while I'm working my way into the game.

-Don't like Grapes #82 all that much. Mostly, I'm in disagreement with a large number of the directions he's pushing.

-LQ is a little weird, but okay so far. Love his #92, actually. (FutureVyse Note - Grapes did a little better in #256. I'm seeing a bit more thought emerging, and want to watch it play out. We'll call him Null for now.)

-Penguin's #165 is meh so far. I kinda want to see it play out a little more before offering my thoughts, but it's mostly just pushing in directions I don't feel great about.

-#167 Re: Suzune - That's sort of how I see Suzune, with the caveat that I can play a pretty nice & friendly game as well, and because it comes from my basic personality, I can do it as either alignment. This basically amounts to a 'yes, but Null'. I don't agree with the reasons being presented against Suzune to date, but I have yet to form a strong opinion on her.

-I don't like the dismissive tone in #168. Not that I believe it's mean per se, but I don't like the way you're shooting down LQ. It feels like you're adding a bit of peer pressure here, for lack of a better term. (I'm tired, but you get what I mean, I hope.)

-I see Sala's #171, and raise it a yawn. But seriously, humor aside, I'm just not seeing it.

-On a side note, it's weird to me how Sala thinks Suzune would be an obvTown player or a difficult lynch, because my impression was very much the opposite.

-#207 This is such a common thing in the meta anymore, I'm not giving it any points.

-#258 Feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but I actually find it harder to engage when I'm Town than when I'm scum. With scum, I have a huge library of things TownVyse has thought before, because I'm a very meticulous, slow-paced Townie usually, and tend to run through a heck of a lot of theories & ideas before I post. It's all ready made for me to use as scum. For that same reason, I have a little more trouble engaging early as Town. (I've been working on that recently, with some success, but there's been a lot keeping me from getting attached to this game.)

[VysePresident]

@Penguin - I'm curious, what are your thoughts on Suzune now? Thoughts in general?

[VysePresident]

@LQ - Well, as a general overview, I very much like to start by getting a feel for the personalities & thought processes of the players, and start feeling out the narrative(s) of the game in that light. My reads tend to start as something intuitive, but ultimately can be worked out into concrete thoughts. (My opinion is that gut is the first step in forming logical reads, but that's another story.) I'm self-aware as all get out, most of the time, I have to bite my tongue not to give self-meta or otherwise comment on my own play, because I feel it tends to be counterproductive more often than not. I don't really do much conversing for the most part- I generally form reads on my own, for the most part, then I start pushing like crazy once I actually have something. I think it's probably not always the best part of my play, and I've been experimenting a bit with alternate styles, but given that I'm not quite so comfortable with this game so far, I'm going to stick with what I know best. Generally speaking, I post few things, but try to make them quality.

I do use PoE sometimes, though it's generally one among many factors. I like most everything except 'basic scumtells', because those never work without a whole lot of situational context supporting them, in my opinion. [/rant]

That's the story of me, and just the brief overview at that.

That's the story of me.

Also, you just need to look at that post to see who I'd lynch. I

will

gladly take Elbirn to a lynch the way things are. Most of the other reads are of the 'Wait & see' variety.

More in a few, I think.

[VysePresident]

@Penguin - I'm curious, what are your thoughts on Suzune now? Thoughts in general?

Town read right now. Her content was fine, what was pinging was more tone. In general, that this game isn't very readable for me so far; having trouble following so many people I haven't played with much/at all.

Firebringer feels townish, you seem town so far from what I'm remembering of your play/your analysis here. BlankFace has good content.

I don't get a good vibe off Morning Sun, and I can't bring myself to town-read Klingoncelt. The reactions seem town, but not in a genuine way? Might just not be on his wavelength. I think I played a game with scum-grapes right before fading out, and he doesn't remind me of that, but he also might have changed a lot in the past year.

Too tired to come up with conversation starters. Maybe tomorrow.

Mmm. I'd rather see more conversation than starters at this point. I just don't feel like you're doing all that much with the information you have so far. :/

Catch ya later.

[VysePresident]

Whaddya know, I finally have my first scumread, the weirdly aggro LQ.

Are you and Grapes buddies. then?

VOTE: Lickety

Break it up, ladies.

But seriously, what makes LQ so weirdly aggro, Klingon? What makes him & Grapes buddies?

Talk with me Klingon.

[VysePresident]

VOTE: FireBringer

[VysePresident]

VOTE: Elbirn

Back to scum.

[VysePresident]

Mostly intuitive right now, and I'd really prefer to see him engaging so I can read him better.

Still, it feels less like someone actively thinking about the game, and more like someone trying to flow with the Town. If you think of gutreads as flavors, he has a sort of blandness to his reads that make me think there might be artificial flavors involved. I'm also intolerant of red & white dyes in my food, so I prefer to lynch them where possible.

Tortured metaphors aside, I'm pretty serious about this one at present.

[VysePresident]

Okay, my Elbirn vote is now dead serious. Gonna run through with my brain dead thoughts, and hopefully I'll be more coherent in the morning.

So if you'd all humor me, take a look at Klingons iso.

Done? Okay.

It's crap. Her first like 20 posts are fluff, casually throwing shade on a few players in a few instances, and she doesn't even take a stance on anyone until her 22nd post

I've read the ISO. Four times now. I would dearly love to hear how she was 'casually throwing shade' on a few players, and how it was obviously scummy.

Guys, I'm really sick tonight. I can't focus on the game. I'll try again tomorrow.

Hope you feel better Klingon ;(

Even though my gut says you are scum.

@Marcell you just seem 'there' if you know what I mean? Like you are here but kind of in shadows a bit, not noticeable not drawing that much attention. Seems like what scum would do with all these seemingly TvTs going on.

*sigh* I am so tired of being scumread early in the game. How many times do people have to see my Town (or in this case Human) flip before they figure out that I'm not Scum in every damn game I play? It's depressing and demotivating.

Unimpressive ate..

Sure, I'll give you that. I'm calling it Null. You?

I'm not getting any solid reads right yet, everyone ranges between probable Town(Human) and leaning Human.

I do need to hear more from ShadedMelee and Marcrell.

I'm going to say something right now. All summer long every game I've been in was p to some degree by players signing up then abandoning their slot after a couple of posts, Town & Scum alike. Unless there's a R/L emergency, I'm voting to lynch all replace-outs' slots.

Still has no reads. Still doing ate. Sets up for justifying lynching replace outs which is the laziest and crappiest thing I've heard

I would quite literally lynch you for this statement alone. "Setting up for justifying lynching replaceouts" Really?

Weak play on Klingon's part? Agreed. Weak =/= scummy, however. I don't see you actually exploring this to any degree. It's just a series of buzzwords. "No reads", "AtE", "Justifying easy lynches!". I don't buy it.

I don't like the Marcrell wagon right now if for nothing else, its just way too easy. There is no one really to speak of that is defending him. If he is scum, I would think it would be an easy lynch and/or he would replace out so that is what I am looking for. But this early in the game I just can't see that Marcrell is scum at this point. I suggest we find a new wagon because I think Marcrell is going to end up making his team look guilty the longer he's in the game as scum.

I'm not sure if Marcrell's Scum. In fact, due to meta, he's leaning Town for me. I've been in a couple games with him, both of us were Scum, all he did was make a couple vanity posts then he flaked. He's way more active in this game, that has him leaning Town for me.

This is her first read. It took nearly 300 posts to get a read out of her and it's pretty weak sauce.

It's pretty low caliber, yeah. This is why I tried talking with her, to get a feel for how she thought. Unless you have something you want to elaborate on, I'm seeing the way you latched onto her, and feel you're just jumping on an easy target.

I'm having a hell of a time getting reads this game.

I don't know BlankFace, Grapes, Penguin_alien, ShadedMelee, or VysePresident.

I have trouble reading Firebringer and Elbirn.

The Morning Sun hydra, I'm not familiar with Gameplay/Umbreon, and Salamence seems subdued.

That leaves the Empoleon Bellapatre hydra, LicketyQuickety, Marcrell, and Suzune, and I have leaning to strong Town reads on them.

*sigh*
Look she rules out reading 5 people based on not having played with them, dismisses 3 more on "idk how to read them", and then throws out 4 townreads for everyone she eliminated and with no reason.

It irritates me too. Just not as much as your rush to judgment. You've been here for almost a year now. I'd expect that you've seen weak Townies before, along with frustrated & apathetic Townies. Why is this pinging you?

Because, see, I'm sure the response I'm going to wake up to tomorrow is how I'm defending Klingon, etcetra, but the major point here isn't my read on Klingon. She's Null, and I'm mostly apathetic to the case being made on her to date. It's a mess of buzzwords without substance. I don't care if you say she's 'doing AtE'. I can pull up a dozen melodramatic Townies without even searching my brain. I don't care if you say she doesn't have much substance. I want to know what you think is lacking, and if it fits into a pattern, or is just a simple anomaly. I want to see you exploring, I want to see you caring about what gets said & done.

As it is, all I see is a cheap push at a lynch. You're not building a case for your evidence. You're building evidence to suit your case. You're impressing a viewpoint rather than trying to understand the game.

This is scummy.

Oh, Elbirn, Firebringer, Grapes, you guys can vote for someone else now. I'm Town.

More ate

...

Whaddya know, I finally have my first scumread, the weirdly aggro LQ.

Are you and Grapes buddies. then?

VOTE: Lickety

This is just straight up omgus, there's nothing else to this.

Point 1) I added a period at the end of that for you. #CrisisAverted
Point 2) I agree. But again, what differentiates this from weak Town play? Better yet, have you even considered that alternative?

----

4realz, Klingoncelt 2016. A vote for klingon is a vote for a better tomorrow.[/quote]

Only for a master of evil, Elbirn.

---

So, I'm brain dead exhausted, as mentioned above, but looking back, I'm not entirely sure I'm getting my point across. I'm going to go ahead & sum up what I'm seeing, because I feel I might be letting the

1) Elbirn is not actually looking into why Klingon's play is scummy in specific. He's jumping on her for general buzzwords & 'scumtells' that ignores the tendency of Town to do similar things. It's not that he's voting her, because sometimes, AtE and/or apathy can be scummy. It's the fact that he has very little thought & substance behind the accusations, except on a very superficial level.

2) There's a certainty & comfortableness to Elbirn's read that seems to completely bypass basic Townie paranoia. There's no sense that he's worried he could be wrong. To be fair, there are some players who just shout how right they are until the cows come home, but that's not the attitude Elbirn is showing here. (And that sort of shouting tends to just drown out the paranoia, rather than remove it, I think, but that's neither here nor there.)

2.b) I have little faith in Day #1 Obvscum wagons, particularly when based on something superficial. All of the ideas presented in the post quoted above are extremely shallow. I tend to find that scum are more likely to be in the people pushing those wagons along more often than not.

2.c) His tone is bothering the heck out of me. I've kinda touched on this above, but there's no sign that he's anything but perfectly confident in his read, even though he doesn't have the signs of being a blind tunneler either. His read showed some time invested, if nothing else. It feels very much like he's falling into a character. I'm not sure if that comes across the way it does in my head, so here's another way of looking at it. A thoughtful Townie - the kind who take time to sort through evidence - will typically try to build their cases off of the evidence. Elbirn is building evidence based off of a pre-determined case.

He's not building a case, he's trying to impress a viewpoint.

3) One thing that's bothered me for a while, that I've touched on vaguely, is the way he's interacting with the game. He's "Engaging." He's "Forming Reads." He's "Moving the game along." These things are all good & well, in and of themselves, but there's no real flow or pattern to it. It's more like he's just checking boxes off of a list on "How to Appear Town", rather than actually being a Townie. There's very little in his posts that is particularly attention drawing - enough to dodge the accusations of not having content, and no more.

Eh, I'm still rambling, but hopefully it makes sense. Catch y'all tomorrow, when I'll hopefully be more coherent.

[VysePresident]

While I'm up anyway, here's a couple questions/thingies.

@Bella - I'd actually kinda like to hear why you think the cases on Klingon & Marc are good, if you don't mind?

Thoughts on Elbirn, in light of the little stuff I've touched on, and thoughts on Penguin would be appreciated as well. Kinda tired, so I think that'll do it for now.

---

@Suzune - ....I'd actually really love an explanation on this one, because I'm legitimately confused as to how you could believe that, given that I've been challenging Klingon & Penguin lightly, while offering my thought process as I start forming reads.

I'm not usually a 'loud' player by default, and I don't feel a need to create noise for it's own sake. It's counterproductive, except when the games stalls & I need to force something to get the game moving. (This is more of a problem on my old site, where people are occasionally inclined to be tentative.) Right now, I'm reading the game as it forms, and building my opinions from there. I'll push my opinions when I feel like they're something worth pushing. I'll talk with people on things I think need talking about.

I'm curious what you find suspicious about this?

Night!

[VysePresident]

In case you can't tell, the second post was actually written first, but I got sidetracked looking at Elbirn, and ended up posting that first. Not sure if it matters, but just FYI.

[VysePresident]

@Vyce, Don't get the meta shift. Could you explain that a bit?

BTW I had you at null and now I

really

have you at null. I don't get why you are not voting Marcrell.

Sorry, what? I don't understand what you mean by 'meta shift'?

I'm feeling a lot more strongly about Elbirn. Marcrell could go either way, while I'm pretty confident Elbirn is scum.

[VysePresident]

Can

someone

kindly touch on my thoughts on Elbirn?

Please & thank you.

[VysePresident]

@Suzune - Heya! I really would like a response to my post earlier, regarding your statement about me being unhelpful. (especially in light of my embarrassing play in DrMcNinja Mafia.)

@Bella - Heya! Those thoughts/reads I requested, pretty please?

-Klingon can drop down my readslist a bit for continuing to push LQ blindly. I still kinda want to hear from her, though.

@Vyce, Don't get the meta shift. Could you explain that a bit?

BTW I had you at null and now I

really

have you at null. I don't get why you are not voting Marcrell.

Sorry, what? I don't understand what you mean by 'meta shift'?

I'm feeling a lot more strongly about Elbirn. Marcrell could go either way, while I'm pretty confident Elbirn is scum.

Your tone was 10X more assertive than what you were doing previously. The fact that you are representing that you haven't observed this is really off putting.

Elb is playing way more pro-town than marcrell is, so I don't know why you are on the fence about him and are scumreading elb so hard :/

Don't see it, in regards to Marcrell. Also not interested in Fire yet, either.

Also, I was confused by what you meant about meta shift period. My exact tone varies substantially based on what I want to do, and in this case, it's still about lynching Elbirn. (Though I'm pretty sure I noted the bit about me hanging back until I find something interesting.

And I told you why. Please at least do me a favor & don't let that wall of text be for nothing, okay?

[VysePresident]

That would be disappointing to lose Morning Sun.

Vyse, I can explain what I mean. I actually went back and read it while I was half asleep and I had the same opinion. You posted five times on page thirteen. Therefore that is the post my comments are directed at.

Let's break it down post by post. post 313 This post is just an all about me and my playing style post. It does not advance the game nor would it solidify anyone's reads or at least not my own. Everyone in this game is wait and seeing things and instead the most you have given us is your reads in 273, which are nice, but this post goes no where.

post 314 In this post you comment on someone else not using conversation starters, but you also choose not to start a conversation with Melee either.

post 315 This one is better as it leaves hanging questions.

Then you double vote. One wonders why you voted for Fire in the start if you were just going to change it back to your main target. Perhaps because you wanted to remind him he was not safe?

post 320 You say you want to see more from them. But you do not engage. So it is hard to understand why you would leave it hanging like that.

These posts are just not full to me. They are light. You say you want people to do something and then don't do it yourself. Or you say to want something but don't engage. They strike me as kind of fluffy then and unimpressive. My opinion on the matter.

Oh, sorry Suzune! I missed this post somehow.

313 was a direct response to LQ asking about my playstyle. Hence the focus on my playstyle.

314 was a challenge to Penguin to do a bit more, and specifically, I want to see her points of interest beyond the shallow ones listed. I know her playstyle, and I kinda feel this has been relatively weak, coming from her. That said, I'm giving her some leeway, because I know she hasn't played in a while.

The double vote was a joke, based off of FireBringer saying he was uncomfortable with being Townread by everyone. I then went back to the player I was actually scumreading, Elbirn.

320 came on the heels of a giant post pushing to lynch Elbirn. I'm pretty sure that ought to engage his attention, y'know. I'd rather see what points interest him than push him in any particular direction.

[VysePresident]

320 came on the heels of a giant post pushing to lynch Elbirn. I'm pretty sure that ought to engage his attention, y'know. I'd rather see what points interest him than push him in any particular direction.

Minor correction. This actually apparently came just prior to the posting spree with the read on Elbirn. Same thing applies, but more generally speaking.

I need to head to bed now. I'm having trouble keeping track of things like what the heck I'm doing, and that's always a bad sign.

[VysePresident]

That would be disappointing to lose Morning Sun.

Laughing. Oh ok getting back to reading

Pedit: Yes Vyse you are now def town together with LQ imo. Also I am feeling the same way for Elb, especially since I don't see scumKling right now.

#BFF

[VysePresident]

Grapes, what about Elbirn?

[VysePresident]

So, meant to get to this sooner, but all my friends seem to be falling apart, and I've spent the last 12+ hours dealing with various forms of depression & unnecessary drama, pretty much straight.

Going to hold off posting much until tomorrow, but I'll run through some simple stuff.

I will say that I don't really care about any of current wagons much at all. It's both awkward & frustrating for me, because I don't want to be one of those guys who yells at the entire thread, but at the same time, Elbirn is screaming scum to me to an extreme, and I don't get why everyone's ignoring him. Maybe I'll have a chance to explain it better in the morning, but the best I can say at the moment is that everything he's saying is shallow & perfunctory. His Town reads are unimpressive, and his play feels like checking off a list. His commitment to Klingon's wagon is based off a hyperbolic reading of her play - in other words, he's using a lot of rhetoric to call her play something it really isn't. Her reads are shallow to date, not 'sly pushing'. Her commitment to lynching replacements is a bad idea, but realistically, he's making a mountain out of a molehill. It's the kind of thing you do when you know you're expected to have scumreads, and

Marcrell is meh, Klingon is meh, Shaded is meh. (And given Elbirn's Townread on Shaded, I'm inclined to believe Shaded actually is Town at the moment, just because I don't think Elbirn's the type to get bold with his scumbuddies, but I do think he'd like the cred of not being on a mislynch.)

That's where I'm at.

@Penguin - Because I can mostly follow LQ's thought processes. There are a few things I'm watching in regards to his timing & commitment, but I can see it as a coherent - if very messy - train of thought. He's lost me a little recently, but I'm reviewing at the moment. Not sure how to explain it better at the moment.

Anyway, I'm tired, and a little depressed myself now, so take care all! I'm going to hit the sack.

[VysePresident]

Not going to lie, I've been putting off reading for a while, while things sort themselves out. STill going to try to be useful.

Bella is kinda dropping down my reads, but I'm not sure why yet. Mostly posting this as a reminder to explore later.

I really like the Gameplay head of MS, even if Sala is being kinda meh.

My thoughts on Shaded - Don't know, don't care too much. I don't think the shot on Penguin was a bad one for Town to take under the circumstances, honestly, but meh.

I'm going to vote Elbirn again, and procrastinate on actually figuring out how to explain my read, because it's late, again, and I'm an idiot, again.

VOTE: Elbirn

[VysePresident]

@Bella - Quick summary is that Sala is making a bunch of pushes I don't care for, while Gameplay made sense even when I disagreed with him, so I liked his half of the hydra enough to give them a light Town read. I'm getting meh on you because I don't see you growing much beyond the initial pattern I'd noted, but it's not something I'm feeling particularly strongly about at the moment. I mostly just posted because I tend to set my thoughts on the table, and because I needed a reminder to check into you. (Putting that for after I refresh myself on the basic game, and why I'm scumreading Elbirn so strongly.)

@LQ, while I'm on & working stuff out, can you tell me why you think I'm not genuine, and why inactivity is factoring into your reads at all? I'd really like an explanation on that. (also, here's a scumgame, here's a recent Town. Tell me which one I'm more active in. I'll give you the whole list, if you think I'm being selective. I do have active Towngames, but when real life stuff happens, as it always does anymore, I've learned that it's so much easier to make stuff up than to actually solve the game. Honestly kinda frustrated with people pushing this.

That'll be all about me for now, I think. Mostly getting this up because it's an easy warmup to start engaging with the game again.

[VysePresident]

@LQ - Ugh. You realize you're just going in circles now. You're not being clear, ergo I misunderstand you dude. Chill.

@Kling - Do me a favor & ignore LQ for a moment. What are your reads, and why? Why does Marcrell posting make him Town?

[VysePresident]

At this point, I'm mildly inclined to think you both are being silly, and want to bang your heads together. Failing that, I'd love for Kling to start engaging, and LQ to start making sense again.

[VysePresident]

Ohhh, thats a scum duo lol.
I don't know if I should be scared or reassured. If you are scum it should be easy to figure out, if you are town you will look just enough scummy to look town (That make sense?)

Out of curiosity, where's your read at on MS now, Fire?

[VysePresident]

I think you underestimate how difficult it is to change ones meta.

One need not change their meta, just make it so you interpret it differently. It is more common then you seem to think. I sometimes feel like we are on two different pages~

Out of curiosity what do you hope to gain by asking who we have played with? The information to me seems kind of irrelevant because our previous performances with each other do little to affect our current alignment. However, the positive yield is that we are all discussing.

People can change their behavior, but they cannot change who they are. Do you understand that?

Dangit, I liked you so much here, LQ. I was hoping you actually 'got it', so to speak.

[VysePresident]

Stupid weather. I'm having connection issues, and I've been falling asleep waiting for WiFi to get a post in, so I'm just going to copy & paste what thoughts I have here, and call it a night.

I think the thing that gets to me the most in reading this thread is how many times it stalls in a morass of stuff that...well, honestly, I don't really care about. We have buzzwords flying all over the place - AtE, 'Misunderstandings', Inactivity, overreactions, 'slyly pushing mislynches', "Anti-Town play" (I hate that last buzzword in particular, to be honest.) However, the context behind these buzzwords is either incredibly flimsy, or completely irrelevant to actual alignments.

I think it be worth linking to this Mafia Discussion Thread about buzzwords & the like. It's not that they're always invalid, so much as frequently abused, and I believe this thread in particular would find it worth a look. (For instance, I tend to use meta a heck of a lot, with decent results, though I'm better able to gauge players I've actually played with 'live', than games I read after the fact.) I particularly recommend Brian Skies Post #21, but I can't exactly quote it here due to size.

Actually, having reread the thread in full, I'm particularly curious to hear from Elbirn now. His post there seems to agree with my reasons for scumreading him.

Occam's Razor:

"I don't want to overthink this game but I want to be justified for taking the path of least resistance."

WIFOM:

"I can't accurately assess if you're rusing me or not."

IIOA:

"Nice points but I'd like to disregard them."

Meta:

"Because you've played other games on site, I want to add perceived validity to whatever my point is."

It's like you're me.

AtE & "slying pushing mislynches", Elbirn? How would you describe those two phrases, if not similar to these buzzwords here? Why am I wrong for thinking you should know better, again?

Then there are the gambits, based at best on quirks & personal tells I don't care much for, or at worst, less than that. (These enjoy a particularly irked spot in my heart after I got tunneled the entirety of the last game I played based on somebody trying to pull a gambit on me to find my alignment. He actually had some really good stuff mixed into his read, but the end result was that I was Town, and just barely survived by fighting his scumread on me tooth & nail with the other players, since he was so confident he was completely ignoring me.)

Honestly, I don't care about most any of this, because, in my experience & opinions, none of this is particularly relevant to alignment. The main things I look for is what interests people, when it interests them, and why. It's something I call 'direciton' & 'positioning', because scum's goal are ultimately different from the Town's. Town needs to lynch scum, scum need to survive until they equal Town, with mislynches & NKs to aid them. So, look for the people trying to blend in, the people aiming to look Town, rather than solve the game. (It goes a bit deeper than that, because there's an essentially infinite number of strategies for scum to do this, but I don't want this rant to get too long. It just takes flexibility & commonsense to get around most of them.)

In other words, anybody can look like Town when the spotlight is on them. The question is, how do they start acting when they're not aiming for Towncred. Do they still Towntell, or does it fade? How about when their strategy suddenly falters, without warning? (I'm rambling now, so I'll cut this off here.)

Sometimes, having such a different perspective than the rest of the game is helpful for me, because it lets me take an outside perspective while scum are playing to their audience. Usually, they don't really 'get it' anymore than I do thanks to knowing alignments, but they're busy looking for openings & vulnerabilities rather than solving the game. This time, I've had a bit of trouble, just because it's tricky to get a grasp on the narrative, and specifically, what people think is important as a group. It doesn't help that I haven't been able to obsess over the game like I used to, when I first started playing Mafia. That's why

---

That does all lead into the scumread I have on Elbirn. It's a matter of his play not following the personality I've seen from him, as well as resembling a chess game more than the typical paranoid Townie. (And even more experienced Townies are paranoid. They're just better at controlling it.)

You don't always want to go straight for the target in any strategy game, but this is particularly true of Mafia, where scum are trying to present an image. Mislynches are nice, but secondary to survival, which (ironically) is why bussing is such a common strategy. (And I love manipulating scum into bussing early. )

Elbirn stands out because of the manner of his read on Klingon, in particular. It's not that Klingon is some impressive bastion of Town play, because frankly, she's not in the least. However, Elbirn is consistently reframing the narrative in the case he had on her that I dissected earlier. Calling someone out for as bad a suggestion as auto-lynching replacements is fair, however, calling it a 'sly push for easy mislynches' is a ridiculous stretch. This is the kind of thing that would never get massive support outside of a particularly crazy Town, and Elbirn's been around a while. I find it very hard to believe that he thought this was actually remotely plausible, or that Klingon would think that way. Frankly, if anyone's 'slyly pushing mislynches', I would believe it was Elbirn.

I've also frequently seen scum use that line before, in exactly the same manner. Your mileage may vary, but it's something I dislike very strongly about his play.

Outside of Klingon, he's constantly feeling out various lines of thought - and I don't entirely have too much problem with people pushing a bunch of reads & all that. It's part of solving the game. The problem is the 'feeling out' part of the statement, because he's constantly directing suspicion outward, and looking at where it sticks - it's too efficient, for lack of a better term. As a general rule, Townies are the hypocrital, paranoid messes that don't know what they're doing. Elbirn is too polished, too Town on the surface, and not enough when you actually look for any depth.

Perhaps think of it this way - A famous bank robber is asked why he robs banks, and he just shrugs and says "That's where the money's at". It's kinda like that in Mafia. Town cred is worth more than gold in this game, and scum are naturally going to gravitate to where they know to find it. Good play is good play, nothing more, at least outside of context. Same with bad/inactive play. Effort is not indicative of alignment, to steal the line. Honestly, Klingon hasn't impressed me this game, but neither has the case against her - If she's scum, I think it's going to be for different reasons than the ones brought against her to day. (There's a reason I'm pressuring her for reads, and such. I want to see her commit, instead of continue what I believe is just a mutually bad tunnel.)

Or let me put this another way. Keeping my theory in mind, can someone look through his play & tell me what's so Townlike about it? I honestly don't think it'll be easy to come up with all that much, if you actually dissect it. I honestly don't see it. I see him going through the motions of Townreading people & pushing the game forward, but these things aren't particularly alignment indicative on their own. These things are just basic good play for either alignment. Where are the signs of any depth to his posts? Why is he hard-pressing Klingon based on "AtE" & "Sly pushes", when they resemble the same buzzwords he dismissed outside the game thread? (And I know they're technically different buzzwords from the quote I linked & all, but it's the same logic. If the four Elbirn mentioned are shallow & useless, what makes these two any different?)

I don't know. I always have a lot of trouble getting my thoughts across to people, because a lot of it is intuitive, and it's hard to convince people who don't also have a similar intuitive take on things. Sometimes, I even rely on buzzwords myself, to sort of sum up my thoughts, particularly when they just start forming. ('Genuine' is a word I use a lot, for instance.) The thing is, I can always go deeper into them when I have to do so, and it's a constant growing process. I don't see that coming from Elbirn.

Elbirn stands out to me the most, because I'm constantly seeing him hitting the basic level 'Towntells' - the ones that remotely experiences scum know to hit, and are very fakeable - and those Towntells don't combine to make a pattern or flow.

Does any of this make sense? Please?

Other reads later. I'm tired, I'm rambling & repeating myself, and I've spent enough time on MS for one night.

[VysePresident]

I know I'm rambling a lot, but I'm trying to get you guys to understand where I"m coming from.

Work with me here, please.

[VysePresident]

Can you show me a couple of his Town/Scum games, just so I can get a feel for him? (This offer is obviously open to Elbirn too.)

Like, I don't know. My read on Blankface last game was similar, and backfired hard, but at the same time, there's kinda a lot here.

[VysePresident]

Can you tell me which buzzwords I'm using poorly Suz? I outright said they're not useless, but the way they're being used by Elb implies a lack of consideration, I feel.

Or another tack, who seems scummy to you? Let me get a feel for where you guys are at, I guess. :/

[VysePresident]

Can you show me a couple of his Town/Scum games, just so I can get a feel for him? (This offer is obviously open to Elbirn too.)

Like, I don't know. My read on Blankface last game was similar, and backfired hard, but at the same time, there's kinda a lot here.

How are you still a goon? Also I think it would be a really good idea for you to start a wiki on yourself. I might just be doing on for you if after this game I feel you impressed me in some way.

I'm still a goon because they upped the posting requirements (sending me back to goon.), and I don't usually post a lot per game. I tend to go for a quality over quantity style. I've been experimenting with getting louder, and playing with different tones, but my scumhunting ability seems to go down a little when I do.

As for the Wiki thing, I've been lazy, and felt it might come across as a little arrogant back when I hadn't played all that much on MS.

Also, my best play is currently a bit behind me, because I can't give games the same focus I used to. Beforehand, I was obsessive to a fault, now I just say what I'm thinking as I think it.

[VysePresident]

That said, thanks though! I meant to say that above. I blame exhaustion.

[VysePresident]

@Suz - I'm curious, how do you feel about me after last game?

I'm curious, because I used a few buzzwords there, too. (But again, I explained them.)

[VysePresident]

What do you think of Emp. Bella?

[VysePresident]

@Fire - I'm just doing a surface level readthrough right now, but the Elb in that game seems a lot more engaged, so to speak. I wish

@Suzune - I don't actually think we're all that different then. It's not that I care about him using buzzwords, it's the manner in which he uses them. You're a lot like a really good friend of mine I like to play with, in some ways. I think you're smart, and a decent player, but you also have trouble valuing less tangible evidence, while I consider it to be the primary (not even secondary, but outright best) way of reading people. I think that's our major point of divergence here.

Also, don't let me get too much on your nerves. I'm going 'bully' you a little (Read: Pressure & reread) you on occasion, because said friend has a habit of fooling me when she's scum, and I think you're close enough in style to do the same.

That said, I think at this point, there's not much worth saying in the tapes that can't be said here, unless it's a PR result. I get what you mean, in theory, but I really don't see any reason to pop off a tape to somebody saying "Hey, wanna lynch Elb?" Besides, I'd actually rather Elb see my points, because his reaction interests me. So far, it's Null, so I'm waiting for his promised response to me.

Also, yes, yes, yes at reading between the lines.

@Elb - I'd actually love to hear from you right now, because I am still reading your slot, whether you believe it or not. THat said, I'm darned if I'm not going to push the closest thing I have to a clear scumread, even if it's for reasons nobody seems to give a darn about. Also, lol at getting called a lyncher. Elb, have you ever played with Wisdom, by any chance? He's kinda like the choleric verison of me in many respect - I'm a lot more mild-mannered, but I seem to read things much the same way. Check a recent scumgame of mine. If I want someone lynched & don't care about their alignment, I get them lynched. Period. It's harder as Town, because again, intuitive reads are rarely appreciated outside of certain groups, but it's how I think, and it's worked okay for me for the most part.

[VysePresident]

P-Edit - @Blank - Gonna add you to the Elbirn list. I'd also be curious as to your thoughts on Marcrell & LQ.

@Fire - I'm going to add tot that cutoff sentence a little. The Elb I'm seeing in the game you linked me to seems a lot more engaged & pushy, for lack of a better term. My feelings on Elb this game are that he's a bit stiff here, in a manner that coincides with the play to be expected from scum trying to hit basic Towntells - In other words, scum playing a safe game.

Riddle me this, then. Why do you see him as Town? Like, elaborate on what you mean by 'playing to his Town meta' please, so I can get a better picture, if you don't mind.

Thank you.

@LQ & Suz - Use the tapes as you see fit. Just offering my 02.

[VysePresident]

I've given my thoughts on LQ. He's town as hell. He's my top town. Find me one post you don't find genuine and I'll revise that. I'll try to ISO the others later tonight/tomorrow. I have to throw together a Pathfinder game in 8 minutes right now.

Sorry, I meant Klingon. I don't know how I got the two mixed up. >_<

[VysePresident]

In other news, Elb does have one point, and that's the fact that I'm being lazy since I have a scum read. I'll try to get the rest up sometime tonight/tomorrow, depending on how I manage the rest of my schedule. (Kinda behind on a lot of things, honestly.)

[VysePresident]

Oh, forgot that LQ. Sorry.

I'll get to it in a bit, because homework is a thing. (Excuse #789,390.21)

I guess it's the fact that his reads don't seem to be genuine, if you'll excuse the term. He's acting like Klingon's more off the wall statements were some kind of 'sly attempt to line up mislynches' and just generally setting a tone that wasn't there. It was less than brilliant on her part, but I didn't like the way he was characterizing the play. It's hyperbolic, and looks like a forced attempt to push somebody.

He's had other light reads in play, but I haven't seen them grow, or go anywhere. (Yes, I know you can get me for some degree of hypocrisy, since I've failed to explore much outside of Elb. I'm really freaking burnt out after the last game I just played. (I was Town fighting off a mislynch tooth & nail against scum & two of the strongest & loudest Town voices for literally the whole game. My posting count was just about double the next highest poster, and that's exhausting. )

I'm not really talking about not having reads, or the times when he's not posting, because for all I know, that's just real life stuff. It's more how he does it. I'll try again later tonight. So freaking tired.

See, the reason I'm pushing him over anyone else, despite my relative disengagment with the game, is that I don't care very much for the cases being presented currently, just about as a whole. Don't know what to say, except they're not resonating with me. Dunno, I almost said the heck with it & joined the Marcrell wagon for the same post Blank did, but I'm waffling like idiot.

Compare that to one read I'm moderately confident in, and yeah. There you go.

I'll try to stop being useless soon. I'm tired of replacing out, and I don't intend to do it yet a-freaking-gain.

Would

Can you tell me wh

[VysePresident]

But yeah, the moderate read part is why I've been nudging him to talk. Just had a game where everything went wrong, and I'd rather not have that happen again.

[VysePresident]

I think it was...fire who said he'd never played flipless before? I've never played flip OR nightless, so I am at a bit of a loss rn...I'm almost tempted to vote BF :s


Who has played nightless/flipless before?

Suz, i think you are working towards ideas, but I don't know if that fully works - how many scum do you think were gonna be on that wagon, as we know there are 2 lots. Also, in terms of the tapes...what were you thinking?

People I could still lynch: BF, Kling, Marc. Remember that SM was kinda the counter lynch to the last two...

Could I get an update on your reads/thoughts right now, Emp? Kinda curious why you want these three. Thanks.

I've not played nightless/flipless before. It's a bit aggravating for me, but meh.

[VysePresident]

Oi vey.

So, I'm going to try & finish those long-promised reads tonight, or just accept that I can't play Mafia anymore & replace out, and avoid MS for the long term.

That said, I have to ask, does anyone else think my case on Elb boils down to 'buzzwords' still? Because I kinda want to hit him for misrepresenting my case on him, after repeated explanatinos to the contrary, but things have been bad enough this game I kinda want to check first.

Also, Elb, I'd love to hear why I'm on your non-Town list please. TY. LQ's isn't great, but at least a reason.

[VysePresident]

Oi vey.

So, I'm going to try & finish those long-promised reads tonight, or just accept that I can't play Mafia anymore & replace out, and avoid MS for the long term.

That said, I have to ask, does anyone else think my case on Elb boils down to 'buzzwords' still? Because I kinda want to hit him for misrepresenting my case on him, after repeated explanatinos to the contrary, but things have been bad enough this game I kinda want to check first.

Also, Elb, I'd love to hear why I'm on your non-Town list please. TY. LQ's isn't great, but at least a reason.

Due to my internet dying all night, (As far as I know - I gave up after 4AM) I'm moving the timeframe to me reading through the thread this afternoon, and moving with reads/questions/stuff this evening/night.

[VysePresident]

You up for chatting later tonight? I kinda wanted to work your slot out anyway, and it'd be nice to engage with somebody in the internim.

[VysePresident]

Only if you're willfully being silly.

It does occur to you that Emp & I can chat in thread, right? That maybe, just maybe, that's what I was asking?

[VysePresident]

Ugh, sorry for snapping. I'm just stressed, and have so much left to do still.

That said, it is bad, and you should feel terrible about it.

(But I say that in the friendliest, tiredest possible way)

[VysePresident]

@Mod - Any chance we could add a couple days to the deadline for the replacements?

(Totally not wanting this to make up for my own laziness / >_< )

[VysePresident]

So, I'm just going to post my stream of thought as I'm reading through the thread - I'm going to try to treat the thread like I'm starting from scratch, but I'm not going to lie, I'm biased, and it's definitely effecting how I view things at this moment. I'll go a few pages at a time, and once that's done, I'll try to sum up my more complete thoughts. I'm mostly posting this to look back at later, and hopefully get some questions/interactions my way to help me ease back into the game.

---

1st Page - Typical RVS stuff. Meh. Klingon's a little aggressive already, while Fire is irritating me. Neither is particularly meaningful at this point. LQ is a bit on the opinionated/active side, which is nice & all. Elbirn is moving the game along, which is nice. EmpBella is interesting, in that I'm not sure whether she's being semi-serious, or not. Leaning not, but let's watch how these last three develop. {FutureVyse: This is a note to myself, and is based around regauging my reads around these two from scratch-ish.}

2nd Page - Meh on MS's #28. Don't find it impressive, but some people play that way. Let's watch. LQ really seems kinda jittery & all over the place, and I don't particularly sympathize with #32, but that's not impressive, given that LQ seems to be rather opinionated, and I don't think our styles quite mesh at this point. I actually kinda like how LQ disengages from MS a little.

Was it really Gameplay who called me out for "Scumslipping" in #42? Disappointed in you, dude. Suzune is posting a fair bit, but I'm not really making much of her right now. I keep having to remind myself she's there :/

3rd Page: A lot of back & forth with LQ, Suzune, & MS. Mostly coming out liking LQ, being okay with MS (I think they'd be moving the game along regardless of alignment, but I"m okay with them in general so far, if that makes sense.) and feeling wishy-washy about Suz. (She's not offering much to work with, and the friend she reminds me of has a bad habit of doing the same as scum. :/ ) A few minor pieces of the puzzle, and some things to look at, but no major red flags.

Elbirn's #64 isn't hugely impressive or anything, but still nothing serious - it's shallow, but not alarmingly so at this stage of the game. #70 is kinda bad though - it's both a very shallow look into MS based on easy site meta (Like, it's a playstyle thing, not an alignment thing.) & marks a point where shifts from pushing for reactions to stating opinions - including a mild poke at LQ. It's justified within the context of his post, but it's still darn convenient to be sending out feelers here, at this point in the game. (And to be fair, I don't think it's really hard to justify oneself as even moderately experienced scum. Hence all my reading between the lines here.) Mildly-to-moderately scumreading Elbirn here. He's hard on my watchlist at this point. #73 is also a cheap shot at Suz, and while it doesn't bother me quite as much as #70 did (It fits the mold of reaction baiting again.) it's still a feeler pointed towards a potentially soft target. Coincidences aren't looking great here. :/

4th Page: Grapes puts out a series of minor posts, and meh. LQ' s being pushy, which is okay, even if I'm not sure what to make of the specific way he approached things. (I'd rather Grapes not do something crazy.) I'm noting I'm getting into the habit of saying "Person X is okay, but meh", and I'm trying to think of somethign more to say, but this late at night is making things ridiculous. 2 freaking 30 AM. I think Grapes reads are technically correct so far, but I want to see what he does with them - I do agree that Umbreon asking about me 'scumslipping' was mildy bad, but we'll see. I had been so sure that was Sala, for some reason. :/

Grapes is getting more Townpoints as the page continues, mostly because his aggressiveness & manner seem to sync with what I'm familiar with from last game. LQ gets Meh points for voting Grapes. I also can see the train of thought in how he reached his conclusions, and sympathize with it to some degree, which is nice. I disagree with him in regards to Elbirn, though.

Thought I posted before this point in the thread. Dangit, me.

5th Page: LQ, can you tell me what you want me to get out of the thread linked in #101? Because maybe it's just exhaustion speaking, but I'm not following, unless you want me to read the thread for something?

Gonna wrap up for tonight soon, but I want to finish this page first.

Don't agree with LQ's #112 at all. MS is hard-pushing Suzune, sorta, and I wish they were around for me to follow up on. Elbirn is posting, and it really doesn't shift my read much. It's mostly just chatting & basic play that doesn't particularly stand out. (Why is this so Pro-Town, Fire? LQ? There's nothing here requiring him to commit or take a risk. Pretty sure this pattern continues later on.) Really wish I could get more info from MS as to why they're pushing Suzune so hard. She's pretty Null so far, and I wouldn't mind seeing her pressured, but I'm finding the hard-push to be an overreaction at first glance.

So far, LQ is leaning Townie, albeit a very jittery, opinionated one, who's all over the place. ( If you don't mind me butting in with my two cents, assuming you're Town, if you'd just stop getting lost in wild theory tangents, and played a more steady, solid game, I think you'd improve rapidly, and maybe even get to the top tier. Just my opinion, off the top of my tired brain.)

Grapes is pretty solid so far, for a start. He's going to need more to get a better read, but for now, I'm willing to give him a Null-Town read, leaning more Town than not.

MS is the kind of player who's pushing the game forward, which is a positive, and I'd have figured they'd be active enough for me to get a better read than the Meh-NullTown I currently have on them, as of Page 5. I'm kinda hoping Vedith can enter the game hard, and help me make up for lost time on this slot.

Fire is a bit too silly at the moment, but trending slightly towards being useful. Sometimes, I'm inclined to suspect he's an alt of somebody I know here, but eh. I kind of

want

to call him Null-Town, but I want to watch this develop for a while.

Blankface has been technically accurate in his posts so far (Again, as of Page 5), and I kinda like his read on Grapes, if only because I sympathize & share it. Null, with hints of Town.

Suz doesn't really have a lot to her name, and even if I were 100% sure Elbirn was scum, distancing is a thing. She's Null at present, but I'm going to watch this one carefully. I keep forgetting she's in the game, and that's not a good thing.

Elb is bothering me the most at this point, for reasons stated above, and that will be stated again when I sum up my thoughts more cohesively.

Think that's all for now.

[VysePresident]

You up for chatting later tonight? I kinda wanted to work your slot out anyway, and it'd be nice to engage with somebody in the internim.

You do realize how this looks like a scum slip right?

...I mean. It does seem kinda out of place the way it's not clear who's being talked to. But you'd have to be really thick to slip out of your pt and vyse seems like he's smarter than that.

Thank you.

I'll lynch you last, for this.

But seriously, can I get a more detailed overview of your thoughts? Because it's potentially useful for my read on you. Thanks in advance.

Heading for bed now.

[VysePresident]

If you don't mind me butting in with my two cents, assuming you're Town, if you'd just stop getting lost in wild theory tangents, and played a more steady, solid game, I think you'd improve rapidly, and maybe even get to the top tier. Just my opinion, off the top of my tired brain.

If you really feel this way and are not doing it as scum manipulating mah feels then we can talk about a hydra after the game. How does that sound?

BTW this post was like 95% IIoA. I know people don't like that term because it usually amounts to nothing, but really, from what I understand about IIoA it means all you're doing is giving a rundown of what happened for some quick towncred as scum. I've seen it Twice used flawlessly as scum and was fooled so bad one of those times that it made me look like I was tripping over my own tied shoelaces. So yes, at this point its something I watch.

I'd absolutely be up for it, LQ, if you don't mind the chronic difficulties I've been having with activity recently. I won't leave you to hang, but I probably am not going to be the leader in any hydra unless I get a really strong read. (I don't lie about this sort of thing, regardless of alignment. I think you have a mildly bizarre thought process, but there's some really, really good stuff in there, if you can slow down & find a more steady pace. Just my opinion.)

The post I typed was stream of consciousness style - here is this thing, here's how I perceive it, let's see if it develops in a way that fits with how I perceive it to be. I'm having difficulties reengaging with the game, because y'know, 30-odd pages, and I kind of let the thread go. This is my way of easing back into the game. If you want to hit me up with questions, or challenge me, or whatever, it's welcome. I intend to sum it up & give my filtered reads after I'm done catching up on the thread, if you're worried about me not providing analysis.

Also, people are having a lot of difficulty understanding my thought process, based on all the comments thrown my way, and I feel it's both necessary & very relevant to explain my thought process in detail, because otherwise, I'm either going to have sit back as a scum read coasts by, or I'm just going to spend the game yelling how right I totally am & how you guys need to listen to me. I typically fall for the former, and regret it immensely, while the latter are the kind of people irk the crap out of me.

This seems to be the best solution.

[VysePresident]

You mean roles can be modified?

The horror.

Mocking aside, this is kinda what I mean when I say you're opinionated and get way too lost in tangents. If Blankface were scummy, okay, but I don't see it, and all you're hitting him for is trivial stuff. (And, no offense, but that recent post on Suz was awful)

So no, not interested in this wagon.

[VysePresident]

Blankface, who did you target today?

[VysePresident]

Decided to cut this down to something bite-sized, because I was getting a little more snarky with LQ than I'd like. (In my defense, it's late at night, and I'm really irritable at everything for no reason.)

@LQ - I'd like you to back up your statement on how my reads are feeling fake - I get that it's apparently a gutread, but even a gutread can be explained. I kinda feel like you're turning on me because I'm disagreeing with you a lot here, and it's irking the crap out of me. (And I'm tired of stuff like that last statement - and probably this one too - getting called AtE. I post my thoughts as they stand, to the fullest I can coherently manage. That includes details such as the above. I've been called for AtE for almost a year now, and it's so freaking oblivious to what AtE actually is. Having emotions or opinions is not the same as deliberately Appealing to Emotion.)

(Also, if you think this is outside my normal style, I'll point you to Penguin's 305, and the fact that she's played the most games with me out of anyone on this site, except maybe Bro. It's not a definitive statement on my alignment by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm so freaking tired of getting called out for my playstyle anymore. Even the most superficial glance at any game I played in seriously would show that I always play like this to varying degrees. (I had a couple games a while back where I screwed up & ended up replacing out. Those don't count.)) Want links?

In before you call me out for being too defensive in this post, or too self-aware, or whatever.

Anyway, quick dumb post done, getting back to the game.

[VysePresident]

@LQ - I'm on 167 (again), and I kinda want to ask if you could lay out for me how you went from seeing Elbirn as mildly scummy to so darn Town? Like, one of the things I'm noticing about you is that your thought process is all over the place this game, and I sorta would appreciate you taking that readslist, and just explain how you got there in general?

Basically, transparency is a nice thing.

[VysePresident]

Like, 325 is probably the single largest thing I have against Elbirn's play to date. It's a case that rests on rather weak justifications, that I've run through before. Calling her play bad would have been fair, but 'slyly setting up mislynches'? This case from a player who's been here over a year? And strikes me as moderately intelligent?

How the heck do you like it? I'd like to refer you to 326 to see someone who kinda gets it. It's not a perfect summary of my thoughts, but it'll do for the moment.

[VysePresident]

I'm so freaking burnt out right now, but I don't want to replace out a-freaking-gain, not when I actually have stuff. :/ (and before you fuss me about activity LQ, check the time this is posted, and account for me being on Central Standard Time - it's 5:30 AM. These hours are the only ones I seem to be able to post at anymore.)

[VysePresident]

@fb Your scum reads are :S Why? Bc lurking? If so, why don't I come under that list? (I'm around today if people have questions for me, shoot!) What differentiates, say, vyse, blank, grapes and pa (kinda my picks rn) from your scum list?

Heya Bella! Don't suppose you can remember why you made this list at this point in time?

What's your list right now?

Talk with me please. Kinda want to get a feel for you, and I'm having trouble doing that.

[VysePresident]

I'm not even going to delve too deep into Shaded's alignment. I'm just going to point out that his Venge kill was obviously not the Demons vig-kill, or Penguin would have been mutilated.

Honestly, I actually lean more Town than anything. (Enjoy, LQ )

[VysePresident]

That would be disappointing to lose Morning Sun.

Laughing. Oh ok getting back to reading

Pedit: Yes Vyse you are now def town together with LQ imo. Also I am feeling the same way for Elb, especially since I don't see scumKling right now.

Why did you have to get replaced?

Why?!

[VysePresident]

Mmm, heya Suzune!

I'm kinda falling asleep where I'm sitting, but I can give you a few minutes if you want to chat?

If not, I'll just post a quick update on my readslist & call it a night. Not really doing the stream of consciousness thing right now. Just isn't working out like I'd hoped.

[VysePresident]

Strong-ish Townreads LQ, Fire, Grape, Blankface
NOTES: Not too much to explain, given that these aren't exactly controversial. LQ is loud, and probably shouldn't be taken without a pound of salt, but there's enough of a coherent train of thought (sorry grape) - if somewhat bizarre at times - that I'm mostly comfortable with him. That said, there's some serious gaps forming in that understanding given some of his jumping around on his reads, and I kinda do want to talk with him a bit about his reads, assuming I can ever actually get on at a time when I can think coherently.

Fire is a little less engaged than I'd like, but mostly good when he engages with the content of the game. I still kinda want to know what he saw as Elb's Town meta, and a little more on his shift to being closer to my point of view - I love it and all, but I just came out of a game where someone sheeped my reads, and it was in fact too good to be true - they were scum using me.

Grape makes sense, and I like what he's posting. Getting lazy here, so I'm just going to stick with that.

Blankface is Town for now, pending results on his claim. I don't find the case on him appealing anyway, and his claim basically sets him up to either be NK'd, or require him to give results.

Null: - Vedith(/MS), Empolean Bella, Klingon, Marcrell, Suzune.

Marcrell has had a few weak posts that make him my preferred compromise lynch (@LQ - Darn few scumteams are going to openly defend their own, and those are usually either the newbies, or the best players, in my experience/opinion. I think we're all about mid-level, to varying degrees.) I'll try to get a list tomorrow - I don't feel nearly as strongly about him as Elbirn, but honestly, there's more than one scum left, and he's low enough on my list to be a decent secondary choice.

Empolean is a weird point for me, because I keep meaning to ISO them & failing, because I keep making it second priority. I'm mostly working from memory, and they were never a strong point of interest for me for any length of time back then. :/

I think I'm making Emp my priority tomorrow.

Klingon really is meh, but the fact that Elbirn is pushing her is giving me serious pause. It doesn't seem like a bus - he was genuinely angling for a lynch in 325, I believe, which is unusual. She's iffy more because of what she's not doing than what she is, if that makes sense - there's not a lot of commitment, and I could see her playing a sub-par for that effect. That said, I'm more inclined to believe she's Town, especially if Elbirn flips scum.

Suzune - Meh, and meh. I liked her tone before, but she's slipping down my list for not having much else to her name. It's not that her play is bad or anything, but there's a tendency to avoid making a stand or commiting to anything much that bugs me. She's mostly focused on basic play that really doesn't stand out. I might be willing to lynch her as well.

Scummy: - Elb.

I've given out my thoughts on Elb so many times now. He's fake. That's about what it all amounts to. I don't get how people are seeing him as a beacon of Towniness.

[VysePresident]

No worries Suzune.

Honestly, it's 6:30 AM anyway, so I need to sleep now, or I'll hate myself even more tomorrow. Maybe sometime earlier, tomorrow night, if you're up for it?

[VysePresident]

VOTE: Marcrell - This is a thing.

@Suz - I'm going to be at work then.

I go from about 4:15-10:00 between my job & the commute, central time. (If you want an easy conversation, it's 2:12 PM at the time of this post.)

[VysePresident]

Whatever I think about Elbirn, he's right here. Blankface is a bad lynch, Marcrell is a mediocre to acceptable one.

Also, kinda tempted to agree with LQ, but I'm going to take a step back so I can see if this isn't just me letting frustration color my reads. (My frustration being: AtE, 'spamming', 'lurking', hyper-focusing, and that sort of thing have been a constant refrain from people scumreading me, and while I don't blame them exactly, it's frustrating knowing that every single time somebody says that, it's wrong. Even on the single occasion I actually was scum, the reads to that effect were extremely wrong. I'm reaching the point where I'm kinda tired of having the same arguments every time.)

[VysePresident]

Well, Marcell has done nothing all game, as soon as focus is on him he goes inactive. In fact, I've done hardly anything, joined as replacement and this will make my post to the same as his.
I would be happy voting here today, but it would be nice to know if BF actually saw him do something or not.

You are also scummy to me. You have selective hunting, you keep flip flopping around, looking like you don't actually care who is voted as long as it's not you or FB (Buddying in my eyes).
996 looks like fake forced reads. You even put that's you don't know if Emp Bella should be town or null, but nothing comes across as town... Why would you question if it would be town or null in that case?
You are just trying to come across as town by spamming (Ratio will be a lot of pointless shit) and keep asking people for their reads. It's not scum hunting, you are just trying to get everyone else to give their reads for you to latch onto.

You are the 2 I feel scum most, I wouldn't have anything but gut on others, so it's no different than most of my town and null reads for them.

Pedit - Just so you know, I give read lists when I give them. I am in a lot more games than just this so when I am trying to focus you have to be patient and not keep bugging me.

Which tells me you aren't actually reading my posts.

Also, "I'd be fine with lynching this slot" "Oh look how people are jumping on him as the convenient lynch!" in the same breath? Really?

Also, I pushed against Blankface, Klingon, Grapes(before it was popular), and to a lessar extent Marcrell. (Which may not be a postive point for me if he flips scum, but it's there.) Also not scumreading LQ & Fire, though those are less controversial. As least get your claims right.

If you think this is abnormal for my Town game, I'd respectfully suggest you look at this recent game, this recent game, and perhaps this recent game as well. Even a superficial glance should tell you this is not a good case. (And, if you want to chide me for being defensive, look at my most recent completed Town game. I started experimenting with a much louder, more aggressive tone, and ended up fighting hard scumreads from two of the loudest & most powerful Town voices in the game, for just short of the entirety of the game. Being overly defensive was one of the most constant complaints directed my way. Ironically, scum helped save my life from Town, because they were worried about looking scummy. Also, if you're wondering why I'm feeling a little burnt out right now, this game is the answer.)

Alternately, here are a few scum games - 1, 2, 3. I don't have problems making up reads

at all

. I can make long & elaborate cases about the whole game as scum. Sometimes I tunnel (3), sometimes I take a wider view (2), sometimes it's a bit of both (1). Either way, you'll never see me at a true loss for words as scum.

Just saying, I'm not claiming a read on Emp because I've been extremely disengaged with this game thanks to real life, and I'm not going to BS a case that doesn't exist. My memory of them was mildly positive but unimpressive. That was gut, and it was a long time ago.

Don't know. I've seriously considered replacing out yet again, but I want to break my recent flaking streak, and actually be useful. If I fail at that again, I'm taking a long-term break from Mafia. I'm tired of being that guy.

(By 'taking a step back', I clearly meant responding to you in detail. )

[VysePresident]

I'm confused too, then.

Yeah, Marcrell is at L-1.

[VysePresident]

Well, Marcell has done nothing all game, as soon as focus is on him he goes inactive. In fact, I've done hardly anything, joined as replacement and this will make my post to the same as his.
I would be happy voting here today, but it would be nice to know if BF actually saw him do something or not.

You are also scummy to me. You have selective hunting, you keep flip flopping around, looking like you don't actually care who is voted as long as it's not you or FB (Buddying in my eyes).
996 looks like fake forced reads. You even put that's you don't know if Emp Bella should be town or null, but nothing comes across as town... Why would you question if it would be town or null in that case?
You are just trying to come across as town by spamming (Ratio will be a lot of pointless shit) and keep asking people for their reads. It's not scum hunting, you are just trying to get everyone else to give their reads for you to latch onto.

You are the 2 I feel scum most, I wouldn't have anything but gut on others, so it's no different than most of my town and null reads for them.

Pedit - Just so you know, I give read lists when I give them. I am in a lot more games than just this so when I am trying to focus you have to be patient and not keep bugging me.

Who are these two?

[VysePresident]

I actually agree with Elbirn here. :/

@Suzune - I'm sorry if it came across as me blowing up - I wasn't really angry. A little frustrated, but not angry in any way. However, I've found that having a more assertive tone helps me get listened to, where I frequently get ignored for the reasons you've listed. Unfortunately, it seems like it has the side effect of making me sound hostile, particularly to people who don't know me well.

I guess I just want to say, at the end of the day, it's a game, and I want to be able to laugh about it with you guys, is all. I'm actually enjoying the game for the most part, and would probably be really enthusiastic & involved if it weren't for the whole routine that has me posting at ridiculous hours.

As for why I linked...well, it seems more constructive than saying "I do this as Town, ergo I'm Town right now", though I'll totally do that if it works.

[VysePresident]

Eh, no worries. I get it - it's something I've run into a lot before, and goodness knows it can be hard to use meta effectively. I'm not fond of a lot of the common ways it gets used - that game I got burnt out on was one where I was scumread largely for presenting a confident playstyle that I learned from being scum, and people associated it with my scumplay. Ironically, I was trying to learn to use a technique I'd found to be effective as Town. (It worked, in that my targets were all lynched, but it was exhausting as heck. It was also one of the games where I literally scumread only Townies until the very end.)

However, I've found that if I can get a feel for how a person thinks, and how they naturally interact & learn, it gives me a lot of insight into how they play in the long term. You can change your playstyle to an infinite degree, in theory. (Though very few people seem to do much of this in practice.) However, to steal a line I really liked from LQ, you can't change who you are, as a person. If I know *you*, I can often (not always, but frequently) make much more accurate reads on you by observing you. It's sort of like my preferred starting point for solving this puzzle.

That's part of why your playstyle keeps me on edge. I'm not one to overreact, and I figured out it was your natural style to be a little stiff last game, but that detachment throws me a little. It's hard to figure out what precisely you *care* about, if that makes sense?

That's more my own personal theory discussion than directly game-related, but I thought it might be interesting, since we've had a few run-ins. I don't mean to sound like I'm lecturing or anything. I just honestly enjoy discussing game theory.

[VysePresident]

Mhm, that last line is exactly how I feel, though there are times when I want to bang heads together, justified or not.

I actually was a ridiculously easy Townread for most of my early gameplay, for some reason. I think it's because people back on my homesite liked how in depth I went. (That, and I was

always

Town for the longest time, which may have influenced things. )

I think, if you have trouble reading my style, it would help to run questions by me? I don't mind challenges or questions, and I try to explain myself. Reading between the lines is mostly just a matter of looking at why somebody might be saying something, and figuring out if its the most reasonable option. That's sort of where I'm at with

I'd rather work with you, especially if you're Town. (Not that I object to scum support, and I don't recall the last time I ever lynched scum without it, bar a solved game. )

[VysePresident]

Take a guess, Klingon?

Like, I don't expect you to have perfect reads, but I want to see you try. If nothing else, even if I don't like them, it ought to at least help me read you.

[VysePresident]

You seem rather friendly Vyse. I am a little leery because I rarely let people into my head, mostly because it looks like a war zone.

I'm going to sleep soon it is so early in the morning but I will make some questions for you that I have and post them tomorrow.

We will be having words later then. Until then~

I'm always friendly, honestly. I mostly play a character in Mafia regardless of alignment, because I'm not naturally a super confident or loud person. I've got some experience with playing off different aspects of my personality to achieve that effect, but it's not me as a whole.

That said, I try to chronicle all of my thoughts as coherently as possible. (And sometimes, it's hard to be that coherent) I think it might be worth considering that Town needs to work together as a team, and part of that is learning how to let other people in enough to trust you, if that makes sense?

I'm tired too, and babbling, so I'll let ya be for now.

Night!

[VysePresident]

I tend to also agree that lickity is town. He is actively answering, revising, looking and commenting.

Gambles on chances to trip up scum.

I'm adding that to my Scum game.

I was just thinking, that's what I do big time as scum.

It's good for discerning newbies, but LQ doesn't strike me as newbie per se.

[VysePresident]

Sorry to hear that, Bella. I don't know what to say that Blankface didn't already touch on.

I'm afraid I'm also going to have to go V/LA through the 26th.

The Taekwondo school I'm working at has a tournament coming up on Saturday, and things are already hectic. I'll try to post as much possible, but it's likely to be on the low to none side.

[VysePresident]

@Blankface - Just a quick question on your role, if you're okay with it? You can target two different players each phase, or only two during the whole of the game?

@Suzune - Hey, while I have a few minutes, didn't you want to ask me questions n' stuff?

@LQ - I don't think you ever answered my question about why you flipped your read on Elbirn from scum to a strong Town read?

[VysePresident]

@Blankface - Just a quick question on your role, if you're okay with it? You can target two different players each phase, or only two during the whole of the game?

@Suzune - Hey, while I have a few minutes, didn't you want to ask me questions n' stuff?

@LQ - I don't think you ever answered my question about why you flipped your read on Elbirn from scum to a strong Town read?

I can change one of my targets when someone dies, as I understand it. So I suppose it's accurate to say that I can change one or both each phase, depending on whether or not there is another kill like day 1.

So your targets are the same as last phase then? LQ and...?

This is mildly important.

[VysePresident]

@Blankface - Just a quick question on your role, if you're okay with it? You can target two different players each phase, or only two during the whole of the game?

@Suzune - Hey, while I have a few minutes, didn't you want to ask me questions n' stuff?

@LQ - I don't think you ever answered my question about why you flipped your read on Elbirn from scum to a strong Town read?

Why I switched from Scum to Town on Elb is becasue they are just playing way too pro-town for this game. I was thinking at the beginning that he could have been playing pro-town, but he has held that pattern for way too long for me to think he is scum.

Spell it out please. As you might have noticed, I don't see it.

Good Town posts from grapes; no one is lynching him, he goes to end game.

This.

[VysePresident]

Sorry procrastinating everything this morning. Why get up early if I was not going to do anything.

Well Vyse, I am looking very seriously at blankface right now. His claim is so weird and the complexity of the role is surprising. Something about not being about to change targets because they were not the kill. I was wondering on your impressions of him. To me, he seems very pro-self. He always seems to be looking our for what other people think of his place and tends to skirt the edges of conversations. So where do you fall on this feeling?

Lickety you seem to be slowing down a tad. You used to comment quite a bit more.

Ehhhh, I kinda see what you mean. He's not a particularly impressive slot right now, but I hesitate to push him for being survivalistic, or having a weird claim. I know I get

very

involved when people start scumreading me, regardless of alignment, and I've gotten a lot of flak for it recently. I guess the take from this is that I'd like to him start fleshing out some reads & stuff, and I'll work from there.

[VysePresident]

@Blankface - Just a quick question on your role, if you're okay with it? You can target two different players each phase, or only two during the whole of the game?

@Suzune - Hey, while I have a few minutes, didn't you want to ask me questions n' stuff?

@LQ - I don't think you ever answered my question about why you flipped your read on Elbirn from scum to a strong Town read?

I can change one of my targets when someone dies, as I understand it. So I suppose it's accurate to say that I can change one or both each phase, depending on whether or not there is another kill like day 1.

So your targets are the same as last phase then? LQ and...?

This is mildly important.

Vedith.

M'kay. Which one did I just send a tape to?

[VysePresident]

@Blankface - Just a quick question on your role, if you're okay with it? You can target two different players each phase, or only two during the whole of the game?

@Suzune - Hey, while I have a few minutes, didn't you want to ask me questions n' stuff?

@LQ - I don't think you ever answered my question about why you flipped your read on Elbirn from scum to a strong Town read?

I can change one of my targets when someone dies, as I understand it. So I suppose it's accurate to say that I can change one or both each phase, depending on whether or not there is another kill like day 1.

This claim keeps getting weirder and weirder.

I have to agree with you on that.

@VysePresident

- Let me see if I have this right:

You target A & B on Day1. Players Y and Z get killed, so you can switch both targets?

You target B and C on Day2. Player X gets lynched. No one else dies. You can change

either

target B or C, but not both?

I'm assuming this is for me.

And this is correct as far as I understand. I didn't switch both targets day 1 though. Only from LQ to MS/Vedith. Marcell was my other target. I'm watching someone else now.

@Vyse, I didn't get a message so you must have sent the tape to LQ.

Didn't send a tape. Thinking about sending one for real now.

[VysePresident]

Hush you.

[VysePresident]

P-edit: The real crime was shipping myself with Vedith.

In other news, the darn tournament ended today, and I should be getting back into things for a change.

[VysePresident]

Soon enough, Vedith! LQ's crime was against Logic, not nature.

[VysePresident]

Although, LQ, I kinda want to see some justification for why you're pushing me.

Like, you're shouting how Town Elb is, and pushing me, and I don't see that clear path anymore. There comes a point where that starts to bother me. Please elaborate a bit?

[VysePresident]

I don't like that you claimed to send a tape but then didn't. To me that seems kind of suspicious. You wanted to test them, but by not actually sending you could have set them up as a liar.

Hmm? How so?

I could have set them up as a liar, yes. Did I do that? I mean, just asking, because this train of thought seems to be outright ignoring what actually happened. :/

I'm tempted to send for real just because of the way Blank changed his targets after I mentioned the tape thing. It's bugging me a bit.

[VysePresident]

Like, I'm trying to figure out what you think I'm pulling. I guess I could be scum clearing a buddy, or more realistically, clearing Town for towncred, but the scenario you're presenting seems really weird. :/

Eh. Hit me back soon, please.

[VysePresident]

Mmm, Suz, that explanation sounds more like you're irritated with me than anything. I guess I can lean Town on you for that, but I'm still struggling to see why it's suspicious. Talk with me some more, please. :/

I think you underestimate the value of keeping scum off-balance, and how much harm would be done to Town. My plan on BF is two-fold at this point, though part of me was hoping he would just stumble into a lie. Now that I know he either guessed correctly, or was telling the truth, I'm going to hit it one more time, and see what happens.

I've said as much in thread. With the exception of your annoyance as using your power on me, I'm curious what you think the problem is here?

Mostly, the reason I'm pushing you so hard recently is because I want to see a more fleshed out idea of the 'war in your head' that you mentioned earlier, if you don't mind. I had a very good friend of mine completely pull the wool over my eyes in my second Mafia game with her, and it was largely because she had a natural thoughtfulness & slight touch of newbishness to her posts that did wonders for keeping her off my radar. I dismissed a lot of the "Pro-Town" strategies she endorsed during that game as a combination of differences in playstyle & newbishness, rather than being the more self-serving, intelligent way of taking the background. She was always making weak pushes, but in such a thorough way that made me think she was almost certainly Town. (It did help that she was the SK, though.)

You're a bit like her in some respects, at least in how I naturally read you, and in terms of how you're somewhat reserved. As I've said, I've learned that finding out what you *care* about tends to be my easiest means of figuring out a player, and that includes the mess of watching you build your thoughts especially, more than anything actually. The completed version of a lie is much harder to discern than a lie in the progress of forming.

I hope that makes sense.

So, since this is the issue you want to talk about, I'd like to really get into the nuts & bolts of your thoughts here. I don't particularly mind if all you have to share is just gut feelings & an internal argument. Just show me where you're at, please. Thanks!

Anyway, I'm tired & starting to babble, so give me a few. Catch ya in a bit.

[VysePresident]

Although, LQ, I kinda want to see some justification for why you're pushing me.

Like, you're shouting how Town Elb is, and pushing me, and I don't see that clear path anymore. There comes a point where that starts to bother me. Please elaborate a bit?

The short and long end of it is that Elb, unlike you is playing "easy to read" and you are not.

:/

I'll give this some thought, I guess.

Question though, for someone who isn't used to Elb - Why is his play Pro-Town? I've felt like it's scum deliberately playing on the sidelines, and only avoiding getting caught out because of the weird combination of apathy & opinionated people disagreeing with me. Why are you saying I'm wrong? (In a way I can work with, please? Even a gutread can be fleshed out quite a bit.)

[VysePresident]

Although, LQ, I kinda want to see some justification for why you're pushing me.

Like, you're shouting how Town Elb is, and pushing me, and I don't see that clear path anymore. There comes a point where that starts to bother me. Please elaborate a bit?

The short and long end of it is that Elb, unlike you is playing "easy to read" and you are not.

:/

I'll give this some thought, I guess.

Question though, for someone who isn't used to Elb - Why is his play Pro-Town? I've felt like it's scum deliberately playing on the sidelines, and only avoiding getting caught out because of the weird combination of apathy & opinionated people disagreeing with me. Why are you saying I'm wrong? (In a way I can work with, please? Even a gutread can be fleshed out quite a bit.)

Elb has a combination of things going for him. For one he comes off a very very certain of what he is saying. He also has made strong stances against people early in the game and that can go a long way. He also comes across like he has nothing to hide. Your case on him the he was using buzzwords was pretty shoots and ladders like.

'Hard stances' mean nothing when taken out of context, and that's effectively what you're doing. When I say he's playing 'painfully' scummy, I mean I see just about any moderately competent (and even many otherwise bad) players pull this stuff off. It's nothing special in the least.

The buzzwords were the least of the things I touched on to illustrate how Elbirn is playing a painfully safe & scummy game. The fact that you're ignoring my repeated explanations to the contrary is, frankly, ridiculous at this point. What he's doing is failing to provide any particularly deep thoughts beyond pushing at certain weak targets, (which is not necessarily scummy, but is a bad start.) and then fading out once I started pushing him, then giving a light scumread to me that he failed to provide any substance on whatsoever. When I called him out on his overuse of buzzwords, it was to point out that he was trying to shoehorn in pre-made tells where they didn't apply, in a way that was both shallow, and opportunistic. I've dissected this multiple times. The buzzwords themselves weren't the point, it was the whole canned, shoehorned, opportunistic, empty case. (And if this sounds like chainsawing for Klingon, it kinda is. Sometimes, a bad case is worth more than a concrete read. At worst, she was being bussed.)

Note that his scumread on me only appeared when I started getting flak because people couldn't understand my read on him. (And if you think I can't tailor myself

exactly

to any situation as scum, without drawing all this attention, you didn't read the links I provided. For pity's sake, I marked a guy to manipulate in one of my earliest scumgames, and he ended up being the LyLo mislynch, despite having been the only Townie to peg & lynch scum, because everyone thought he was manipulating me!)

I had a fellow by the name of Dodgy who I scumread confidently & correctly based off a bad vote of his. (he had literally only two content posts in the whole game, and we'd just exited RVS.) It's stuff like that which has me constantly told how my cases are 'bizarre' & 'ridiculous' and my preferred lynches have 'done nothing scummy', as if scum normally put on a neon sign for the Town to read!

The fact that you can't see this, that you're dismissing my case as boiling down to buzzwords when I've repeatedly gone over the problems I've had with it, and are shouting how Town Elb is...kinda ridiculous. I'm having trouble believing this from you. I don't expect you to be on point much, but you've made it clear you understand people can fake a deep & involved game. Elbirn isn't even close to being particularly deep, so the fact that you're essentially chainsawing for him has me wondering if you've just been coasting off being 'weird' to everyone.

Obviously, I want to see Elbirn flip first, which is why I'm keeping my vote on him, but...

[VysePresident]

PSA: to those giving vedith a pass based on morning sun's play - word on the street is salamence has a p good scum game

I've been mostly meh on them both, honestly. I guess I'd compromise on him, but he's not my top read.

[VysePresident]

"Be glad all it broke was your fingers, with those ones."

"The pale ones freaked me out even more. Blank stares. After seeing someone like that I couldn't, like, shake the feeling that it was always looking at me, behind my back, in the corners. It made me chilly despite the heat outside. Constantly a pit in my stomach."

Vedith

(3)

- grapes, Elbirn, LicketyQuickety
LicketyQuickety (2) - Vedith, Klingoncelt

Not voting: Empoleon Bellapatre, Suzune, Firebringer, VysePresident, BlankFace

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2015-10-05 19:05:44)

V/LA: Empoleon Bellapatre til 27th, VysePresident til 26th, Klingoncelt til 27th

So, this is a thing.

VOTE: Elbirn

[VysePresident]

I honestly now am reconsidering my scum read on Klingoncelt.

Partly cause Marcell was town, partly behavior this game.
Klingoncelt is playing this like a completely different person, but I kinda believe the reasons why.

I don't know, maybe I am crazy.

Can I get you to elaborate on why Klingon is different?

Also, I asked this earlier, but what specifically convinced you this wasn't Elb's Town game, like you thought earlier? Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I got screwed hard last game by a mafioso sheeping me in just the right way to skip past my radar.

[VysePresident]

@Vyse, so you think both Vedith and Kling are Town then? What about grapes? what's your read on him?

And if you are as good as you say you are then there is no need for me to take your word for it when regarding your arguments as to why someone is scum.

1) I'm reading Grapes as strong town right now, Kling as weak Town, Vedith as Null with hints of meh. Kinda felt like voting him earlier in the dayphase, but I'm tired of getting ignored/dismissed in my push for Elbirn. (Kling is getting some points for the way Elb pushed her, and some more for a certain degree of consistency. None of it is particularly wow, but the things people are calling her out on resonate with me. Vedith would probably be my compromise choice at this point, now that Marcrell & Suz have left that list for varying reasons. (Marc is obvious, while Suz is doing enough Towny things to keep her off my list until I've gotten a bit more from our talk. Probably leaning Town, but I'm giving myself a lot of leeway here after the last couple of games. )

2) My point wasn't to brag. I mean, I've screwed up hard too, my last games here & offsite have been a painful testament to that fact. My point is that my cases are almost always seen by somebody - and often a lot of somebodies - as being too 'weird' or too 'off the wall', and it falls on me to point out how they work, more often than not. In other words, I'm trying to get you all to see past the initial weirdness you might get from my post, and think about it. If all you're getting from me is that "Elbirn used buzzwords", then I need to keep hitting back with what I'm actually thinking.

[VysePresident]

Also, Blankface, when were you planning on getting those reads done? Kinda tired of waiting. I mean, we discussed this in the scum thread & everything, and now I'm going to have bus & pressure you. (Because I'm scum, and want Towncred, because that's what scum want.)

Oh no! I've scumslipped for the third time this game!

Getting tired, so I'm just going to stick to reading the thread right now. I owe EB a readthrough anyway.

[VysePresident]

(P.S. That last post should tell y'all roughly where I'm at on my readthrough. )

[VysePresident]

I really should vla weekends

This is a ~prodge~. I'll talk to you guys tomorrow.

No worries, man. It's just a game.

But when you get back, can you please try & elaborate on the stuff I've been hitting you on, please? (Specifically, where does Klingon stand for you now, and why? Can you elaborate on why you started to scumread me, that gives me something to chew on beyond "Vyse is pushing me!". Thoughts on EmpB? Can I get a general overview & some details, like I've been trying to ask everyone for?

Basically, I want to get a feel for how your thoughts & reads have been growing this game, and whether or not it's faked like I've been thinking. I'm trying to be a bit more accommodating because I can't call this my pinnacle of play, and to top it off, my last game...I wasn't right at all until the very end, and payed for it hard. (When you hard-push three mislynches in a row as

Town

, and almost nail the game-losing mislynch for scum before wising-up, you find it kinda sucks. But then, that particular team knew me very well, so I guess it's understandable.)

Eh, I have a tendency towards rambling, but mostly, it boils down to that sentence about getting a feel for where you're at, and not just why you're there, but

how

you got there. If you're really Town, and want me to go away, then I'd highly appreciate that.

Later!

[VysePresident]

Klingon, why aren't you helping me push Elb? Ved, you too.

Suz, can I get you to talk with me about Elb?

(If any/all of you answered this earlier, and I just forgot, my apologies. I just woke up in the middle of the night, and went to this durn game, so cut me some slack please. )

[VysePresident]

UNVOTE: Lickety
VOTE: Elbrin

The tape told me to do it, so I need to do it.

I wanted to hear from Blankface first.

[VysePresident]

It's not a Guilty, I just reiterated my push on Elb in the tape. I'm a bit confused how it was taken as such. All I did was say (paraphrased, because I'm not entirely sure if it's okay to quote, and am waiting on a response from the Mod.) that 'Hiya! why do people keep boiling my response down to buzzwords? and hey, vote Elbirn pretty please?" (The actual thing was better formatted, but right now, I don't care. )

I'm going to actually have to sit back & think about Elbirn's last post, because it wasn't precisely what I expected. It's...probably the best thing he's posted all game, and he might have a point about EmpB. :/

Catch you in a few. For now, I'll UNVOTE:

[VysePresident]

Also, I tend to base my reads off of a starting point. In this case, that starting point was largely a case I disliked from you. I'm used to seeing scum push weaker players from the sidelines back on my homesite, while here, they tend to be more rewarded when they do so relatively loudly. You seemed to be about a mid-competent scum, and I figured what you were doing was setting yourself up as a confident voice, making pushes & working a few angles.

Now, I'm not ready to call you Town, but I'm no longer confident in my initial read. I want to take a few steps back to make sure I'm not pulling another Blankface, or more recently, Deamon. (Off-site, last game, hounded him to death based on bad early game play. We were both Town, the game turned into a tunnel fight. It was miserable in some respects. Blankface was similar, but I didn't get caught in a tunnel due to luck more than anything.)

As for my read on Klingon, it's a very light "this could be faked, but there's enough consistency here, and my prime scumread is pushing her seriously enough, I'm just going to let her have the reigns." I figured you were scum anyway, and whether you were bussing/distancing from Klingon, or just pushing a vulnerable target like I was inclined to believe, I'd get more from letting her loose, as long as she was semi-active. I'd go for the better scum candidate, and work my way through the fallout afterwards. (Also, I'm a lazy bum sometimes, as you may have noticed. )

I still don't know that I agree with you, but now you're making a little more sense. :/

Keep talking with me as I work through this, please. (Well, when you're done with dinner & stuff, of course. RL comes first.) I'll probably be on tonight, despite my stupid exhaustion.

[VysePresident]

Also, the mod confirmed I can't quote the material I sent in the tape. I can paraphrase, and that's basically it, I think.

If Suz or somebody wants to send Vedith a tape at a random time to check BF's ability, feel free. Mine is pretty much shot to heck after this.

[VysePresident]

This game.

Why can I not get a full grasp of anyone? Have I been playing with the same bloody group for so long? Why can't I do my thing like I used to do easily?

Oh boy. Heh, oh my gosh.

Part of me wants to vote Elb again, part of me wants to vote Ved, just to see, but nah. Mostly, even if Elb is Town, all this stuff talking about what a shining beacon he is of pure Towniness is driving me insane. Even that last post is something I expect would only make sense to me, so I don't get it.

Realistically though, I'm a mess, and there are so many weird theories going around, it's hard to connect with them. I'm going to request that you guys start making sense soon, please and thank you.

This is your TiredVyse Rant of the day.

[VysePresident]

I've read Klingon's ISO a couple times, and I'm still leaning more newbish than not. :/

I don't like that she doesn't expand on her thoughts much, or really offer more than a shallow overview as to why she makes the choices she does. (Elb, question, why Vedith over Klingon, from your point of view?)

Klingon?

[VysePresident]

Actually, I need to get off my lazy, metaphorical butt (The literal one may remain seated.) and look up a few other Klingon games, I guess.

Ugh. Not what I was looking forward to.

[VysePresident]

Mmm, not feeling it yet. Maybe if I get a better feel for you, but this game is hard, and I'm darned if I'm going to repeat Scrubs. That was okay as a one-time deal, but it sapped a lot of confidence. (Seriously, three hard-scum reads flipping Town, one super-hard Townread flipping scum, and the remaining two scum were both moderate Townreads for most of the game. I'm not usually that bad, I promise. >_< )

Vedith, I've just got to ask, can you run through your thoughts on the whole Klingon/Elbirn deal? Like, piece by piece would be nice, in as much as you're willing to put up with me.

Kling, wanna explain your Vedith vote, and Elb Townread? Thanks!

LQ is rapidly falling off my list. [Insert promise to elaborate here, that I'm ultimately going to procrastinate on despite my best intentions because I suck.]

Elbirn still bothers me, but I'm at the point where my gutread is confused, and I just want to throw up my hands & leave in disgust. I'm not replacing out for something that stupid though.

Suz can be Town. Grapes is still probably Town.

[VysePresident]

Dunno about you guys, but Vedith seems pretty Town to me right now.

As in, I'd lynch Klingon over him, if we must go that route.

[VysePresident]

@Mod - I unvoted Elbirn.

[VysePresident]

Sure

[VysePresident]

I'm never going to give it up. I'd never let you down. Never gonna say goodbye.

[VysePresident]

Vedith's all but ObvTown. Let's not lynch him.

[VysePresident]

I'm willing to compromise on Klingon at this point, if we're still going to do this. If nothing else, at least her flip would be more useful to me.

[VysePresident]

Vedith's all but ObvTown. Let's not lynch him.

Why did you have a vote on him then?

Anyways, I agree he is pretty townie here.

Umm, I just checked, just in case I was just forgetting due to sleep deprivation, and no, I've never had a vote on Vedith.

I think I mentioned being a little suspicious of him when he first replaced in, but that wasn't much to work with. This is something I'm more confident in.

[VysePresident]

Gonna take my chances on someone I believe is a better risk first, Klingon. As you said, losing a Townie is not a good thing.

@Blankface - I give Vedith about a 7/10. His reads matched mine enough for comfort, (Not on Elbirn, nor Grapes, and a little more of a scumread on LQ than I had, but roughly.) nor is his wagon inspiring me.

At this point, I'm looking at scum being mixed in: Elbirn, Klingon, EmpB, LQ. Elb & Klingon are not mutually exclusive, but rather unlikely. Of these two, Klingon is more likely to be a weak player. I'm willing to compromise lynch her, because for once, I can actually use a flip for information. (I'm going to keep this simple, and say that my theory is against informational lynches per se, to a very strong degree. I'll get into the reasons below.)

I'm willing to lynch any of the four on that list, with the order set being the one I'm most comfortable with as of this particular minute. My actual thoughts are kinda all over the place, though. More on/to Elb in a few.

Elb & Klingon are not mutually exclusive, but close enough that I'm going to look elsewhere in the event of one of them flipping scum.

Suz, Grapes, Blankface, and Fire are my Townreads. Of these, Fire is my weakest, while Vedith is more focused on Grapes as Null. If Elb & Kling are not buddies, as seems most likely, one of these is wrong.

---

A lot of this is going to be gut-based by necessity.

LQ has fallen off my list substantially as the game has gone on. There's no longer the rhyme or reason I thought I was seeing to his posts - his posts make sense if he's looking for a lynch, but they no longer show much in the way of scumhunting. I'm slowly coming to believe that he's been coasting off of how his playstyle dissonance pinged the group. Null-trending-Scum (I'm noting his push on me, and subsequent withdrawal when it didn't gain any traction, along with his openness to lynching anyone - Vedith, Klingon, etc. I've seen enough of his play to believe that, while he might have a jumpy playstyle, for lakc of a better term, he's better than this.)

I think Elbirn & Klingon are unlikely to both be scum together. I've run over why Elbirn is scummy to me at length, so a quick overview of Klingon tells me she's someone who isn't very involved or offering much reason for her actions that makes sense. This could be because she's a weak player in general, or a scum player having difficulty lying. There are a few things that give me pause, such as vote parking LQ the way she did - it was a little 'easy'-ish, but the larger context (& Elbirn, admittedly.) leave me feeling meh about lynching her.

@Elbirn - Like, walk me through it please? What makes Klingon scum instead of a weak player? Like, call me out for chainsawing or whatever all you want, but I've been inclined towards the latter for most of the game. If you're Town, I think I'd get more from seeing your line of reasoning move more than anything, if that makes sense? (Same if you're scum, really. )

Dunno. Part of me is letting the whole 'consensus of the majority' get to me a bit, but at the same time, I've been stung a few times by not paying as much attention to that as I should. (I have a tendency to assume scum are pushing the wagon, and to be fair, they usually are.) (It seems to be that whatever way I choose is the wrong way, anymore, but eh.)

I'm actually snipping the part elaborating what I liked about Elbirn's last post, because I want to see things play out first. Then I'll add that to the rant pile.

[VysePresident]

Honestly, I kinda want the lynch to be one of Elbirn or Klingon today, if you guys don't mind. If nothing else, I'd like to get these questions out of the way.

[VysePresident]

@Grapes - I'm about to head out to work, but I'll try & answer you quickly. The short of it is that Vedith was initially posting weak stuff that bugged me - A couple shallow Townreads, including Townreading his own darn slot, and 1024 bugged me on a few levels. (I disagreed with most of what he was saying at the time, albeit on a surface level.) The rest of his content was more just meh - saying stuff, but not offering me any meat to work with.

None of it was something I felt strongly about, but I figured that made him a better compromise lynch than Klingon at the time, based on my scumread of Elbirn. (At this point, I'd still rather lynch Elbirn than Klingon, but I'll compromise on either, because I want to finally get past this whole issue.) While I'm trending back towards my scumread on Elbirn, I'm

Mostly, I like his commentary as he's approaching a lynch - it's more thoughtful than before, in a way that resonates with me. I don't entirely agree with him - I kinda think you're Town over Null - but I can see him reaching that conclusion, and how he got there. Now, I'm well-aware that scum do last ditch stands, and can do them really well, but when I look at this whole lynch in perspective, it's not a good one. There's too much laziness on my part - not in how I read him at the time, but in my lack of follow-through - and there's too little actual meat here.

There's also the factor of how my reads are shifting - perhaps if I was still Townreading LQ strongly, I'd vote Vedith anyway, based on PoE. This is not the case anymore - I'm starting to think LQ has been coasting off of his 'weirdness', because he lacks much actual growth or rhythm to his reads & the like. He jumps wildly based on opinionated theories, which I suspect is Null for him, but even the most opinionated Townies I've come across rarely do semi-random resets & the like, and LQ's timing & direction of those resets has left me with a sour taste in my mouth.

As a side note, if we have a scum team strong enough to play optimally in this game, I'll be shocked. Everything I've seen indicates scum are either going to be playing 'characters' (if Klingon, LQ), or using basic misdirection stuff. (If Elbirn.) People defending Vedith, ironically, makes him more likely to be Town, in my opinion. I don't think most of the scum team would be comfortable defending one of their own. (Now that I've said this, the rules are going to be a little different, but up to this point? Yeah.)

Also, I'd have hammered Marcrell at that point. I fail to see this as being particularly alignment indicative at that point in time. (Maybe if Marcrell had flipped scum, I'd be worried about a potential bus, but he didn't, and I'm not.)

And yeah, you're willing to take a chance & all on Vedith, but then, you were dead set on lynching TownSoren/Myself in McNinja, sooooo....

[VysePresident]

While I'm trending back towards my scumread on Elbirn, I'm

*While I'm trending back towards my scumread on Elbirn, I'm at the point where I feel flipping one of the two would be more useful - and more likely scum - than Vedith.

[VysePresident]

Vyse, you're being just a little hypocritical here.

I let go of my stubbornness and re-evaluate my stances and that makes me either weak Town or Scum.

You change your reads and it's perfectly okay.

Pot/kettle.

And the lynch of your choice will magically give you information? No. Everyone who has ever said that was bullshitting. It's not alignment indicative, but it's absolutely bullshit. The only information we can get from any flip is if they flip Scum.

Sort of, yeah. I'm frequently a hypocrite on some level or another. My problem is less that you're changing reads, and more that you don't have a lot of meat to dive into, and the stuff we have isn't great.

Really, I think it's Elbirn, and I'm a bit dismayed to see I'm

not

voting him when I thought I'd replaced the vote back on him. (I'll do that in a new post, just because I want it to be easy to see.)

I think Vedith's less likely to be scum than you are, so I'll lynch you over him. I also think it'd help me tomorrow, even if you flipped Town, because then I'm free to focus on Elbirn, LQ, and maybe EmpB. (She's more filler, but with my readslist being what it is, I'm okay with that.)

Fair? No, and I understand if you hate it. I'd rather not lynch you first. But if I have to choose between the two of you? It's not going to be Vedith.

Also, this isn't a normal game, and I don't expect scum to be happy-go-bussy on each other, but you'd be amazed how much scum paranoia screws them over. I've won games as Town because the scum were afraid of drawing attention to each other. (As in, one scum could have put me at L-1 to essentially win the game, and wanted to wait. They also bussed a teammate at a critical point.) I don't know if I've ever lynched scum without help from their scumbuddies.

Sorry if this is a bit rambly. I'm tired, as per usual, and it's starting to wear on me.

[VysePresident]

Oh yes, did I mention I'm tired?

VOTE: Elbirn.

[VysePresident]

And yeah, you're willing to take a chance & all on Vedith, but then, you were dead set on lynching TownSoren/Myself in McNinja, sooooo....

protip: if you're trying to discredit someone, choosing a game where they nail the scumteam day 1 is probably not the best choice

also, hammering without getting a claim is 1000% scum motivated, especially in a nightless where we lose nothing from no lynching

I forgot the Nightless part.

Hrm.

[VysePresident]

I'm finding it weird you're just looking at Vedith when I did roughly the same thing in 1023, Grapes. It wasn't officially the hammer, but

What do you think of LQ's 1018?

And if you nailed the scum team Day #1, my apologies for forgetting. I was more focused on what you were doing by the time I got into the game.

(Also, considering my own play that game, this is more teasing, and less discrediting. )

[VysePresident]

It wasn't officially the hammer, but

*But it's effectively the same, isn't it?

[VysePresident]

Heh

[VysePresident]

:/

Can we please lynch one of my preferred candidates next if he flips Town? Like, any of them, but preferably Elb or maybe LQ, I think.

If I"m wrong, I'll enjoy my crow, I guess.

[VysePresident]

Mhm.

Doesn't mean I can't hope/pressure you guys. Hopefully getting burned twice might mean something

[VysePresident]

Yeah.

Though honestly, if Vedith is Scum, and I'm wrong again...oi vey. I'll have just about no confidence left in myself. >_<

[VysePresident]

#Smug

[VysePresident]

Hey will need to look things over. Dumb question: Do we know why Shaded was burned beyond recognition?

Not sure. I'm suspecting it has to do with his venge kill. You should have one, something to do with fangs?

[VysePresident]

His flavor doesn't mesh with the known scum vengekill. I'm assuming he's Town because of that, but largely because it's not hugely relevant to my thoughts at the moment.

[VysePresident]

Nope. I might vote you first, actually.

But there's someone I've been trying to get for the longest time, and I'm darned if I'm not finishing this, unless he's really wows me.

VOTE: Elbirn

[VysePresident]

Also, meant to say this earlier, but heya Titus! Good to see you again!

[VysePresident]

I'm teasing you a little, but right now, Suz is a decent read on my part, so no, not voting her.

[VysePresident]

Mildly curious what the tapes have to do with anything?

Are you talking about that end day thingy where I sent Vedith a tape asking him to vote Elbirn, and he seemed to think it was a guilty at first?

[VysePresident]

GG guys, and thanks so much for the game 4nxi3ty! It was an absolute blast, and I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. (Except, y'know, people not listening to me. ) The flavor was pretty darn amazing, especially for something you made yourself. I'd love to be part of the other two games you're talking about, life permitting.

Also, thanks for the kind words, Suzune & Elbirn. I'll try to have my thoughts up in a few.

[VysePresident]

So, this was an interesting game.

I'm going to say, my read on Suzune wasn't quite as strong as I was making it out to be, because I've had a really good friend of mine who can fool me in much the same way as happened here. (I'm trying to get her to play on here, so if you see one Imehal, say hi to her for me. She's friendly, awesome, and pretty good at the game. ) However, I was genuinely leaning slightly more Town than not, and she wasn't my target anyway, so I figured I'd give her free reign, and watch what happened. I wasn't kidding when I said Fire was weaker than her though, so I don't know what would have happened, but I was pretty painfully aware that Bella was just a Nullread I was PoEing, and didn't want to get caught in that trap.

@Grapes, you had me fooled man. There were some points I wondered about, but by & large, I thought you were Town. Well played, dude!

@Titus, I'm sorry we didn't get to play a full game together, but I'll admit, after last game we played together, I was worrying that my push on Elbirn would be very reminiscent of my push on Copper for you. Maybe next time.

@Elbirn - Thanks for the kind words, sir.

You didn't do so terribly. I mean, it says something that I couldn't lynch you to save my life. There's a very good chance I would have been on the lynching table with a little more pressure. The thing is, it was kinda obvious to me that you were trying to hit towntells rather than actually playing a legitimate Town game. Like you said, you were trying to 'take hard stances', and do Town things, but the result was that you looked like you were writing off a checklist of How to Look Town over scumhunting, if that makes sense? (And you kinda were, if I follow correctly.)

Your push on Klingon was clearly framing the narrative in a way that wasn't actually in touch with what I was seeing to a large degree, and that's why I didn't buy it. LQ might have done that legitimately, but you strike me as a pretty thoughtful & intelligent person in a lot of respects.

I don't think I'd have blindly assumed Klingon was Town, (I had a game not too long ago where a scum member tried to distance himself buddy in a similar manner) but I certainly wouldn't have been nearly as suspicious as I ought to have been - I was hoping to go into the next day phase watching the fallout, and maybe push in a few unexpected directions. You were my most confident read by far, with Vedith managing to be my confident Townread. I probably would have been looking at EmpB & LQ first. Can't say what would have happened from there, but that wasn't a good place to be.

I tend to be a slow player in general, particularly as Town. I like to think through the game in detail before I post, mostly, though I have made exceptions. It's something I've been working on, but I've mentioned a few times how I just finished with a Town game where I literally spent a couple months tunnelfighting Town to survive. (As Town, naturally. ) Couple that with some really bad reads I've had recently, and I wasn't very confident approaching this game.

[VysePresident]

LQ might have done that legitimately, but you strike me as a pretty thoughtful & intelligent person in a lot of respects.

To clarify, I don't mean this as a snipe towards LQ. Rather, my impression is that he's one who's more likely to jump on something based on his initial impression, while Elbirn was more likely to take a moment to think about things.

I did mean it when I said you were pretty decent, LQ. I think you've got a lot of rough edges, but if you could work past them, and maybe slow down a little, you could be a pretty good player. Just my 02, of course.

[VysePresident]

Same pal, same.

[VysePresident]

Oh wow, A+ for effort, Klingon. That's a heck of a code list.

Anyway, I'm about halfway through the Deamons' PT, and I'm just dying laughing at being called a lyncher. I'm just a stubborn idiot sometimes, when I have a read.

Fair warning, attempting to wagon me would probably would resulted in me literally staying up all night & longer to fight back. I'm kinda proud of being able to say I've never been mislycnhed as Town before, and I'd rather not start just yet. (Though I owe a lot of thanks to Penguin, among other friends, for being able to read me correctly at some bad times for me. )

I don't know if I'd have survived, because I was trying to convince the wrong people, (dangit, Grapes, Suz, Klingon), but it'd have been interesting, I suppose.

On that subject, I'm really not happy with my activity this game. I kinda blame myself for letting things slip past me in the early game, but that's kinda the problem I keep running into. I'm normally a very slow player to start involving myself in conversations & stuff, and I'm not always good at keeping up with the pace of the game. I've gotten better than my early days, but yeah...I kinda retreated back to my comfort zone for this game.

[VysePresident]

Lickety is definitely this game's MVP.

Ya did good.

*wipes tear from eye*

I've been saying this for a while, but LQ could really shine once he get the rough edges polished a little.

Well played sir, and I look forward to playing with you again sometime.

[VysePresident]

yo you know what would be hilarious?

send a tape to vyse be like

dear vyse

i am scum : ]

love, elbirn

Why didn't you do this?

This would have been so freaking beautiful. :,)

[VysePresident]

I'm pretty impressed with Grapes play in particular, for the scumteam. I like how you think, dude, and I hope we get the chance to be scumbuddies sometime down the road.

[VysePresident]

Apparently, using the tapes was anonymous?

I guess it would have been cool to send scum a false message, but otherwise? Eh.

[VysePresident]

Just want to say thanks to Suzune & Klingon for the kind words. I have to admit, I don't feel I did really well in here, but it's nice to see I faked it well enough.

I would totally love to play with you guys sometime in the future, though! Same goes for the whole group.

[VysePresident]

Yup! So very true.

Anyway, 4nxi3ty, could I get you to PM me when your game goes into sign-ups? I had a blast here, and would love to join you in the next.

[VysePresident]

Holy cripe, my reads were completely wonky this game. Anyways sorry for not being around for the final few days that this game went on. Have to ask what happened to me -said I went missing?

That's the ghost-flavored kill.

The fact that you actually had computer problems and went missing in real life at the exact same time is just a coincidence. Probably.

[VysePresident]

I'd love to be part of this, but it'll be tricky, given that I'd be balancing it with another game, and some real life stuff. I've learned to avoid doing that the hard way. (I had two bloody replace out sprees, and I was so proud of sticking with games before that, too. I'm never repeating that mess, if I can help it.)

I'd currently be down to /replace in, or hydra with another player, if allowed. (And desired, I hope.)

[VysePresident]

I'd totally be up for that if 4ni3ty is.

Anyway, I need to call it a night. I'm busy with another thread, and keep checking in here, but I'm not feeling well at all.

[VysePresident]

You didn't really play that badly man. You just stumbled on an early read, and I mean, when there's only one guy actually scumreading you for it, and two defending you as ObvTown...well, you're doing something right.

[VysePresident]

Yeah, I got another one when I finished Legends of the Hidden Temple, which was also a Mini Theme. I think they're just looking for feedback.