Mini 1597: Runecast Mafia - Day 5

[Thor665]

Like, your play was scummier, and I said as much...but it literally made no sense for you to be scum with the info available. This frustrates me.

[Thor665]

So you did have a redirect power then? That an ability cop couldn't detect?
Because otherwise I hate the players.

Yes and I guess so? We probably showed as killing because she didn't investigate us until we were the last one remaining

@Ffrey - hate you.

[Thor665]

It wasn't OP-ed until you were also investigation immune.

[Thor665]

Well "half" investigation immune.

[Thor665]

A full one would have been fine, but half? Very frustrated.

[Thor665]

Can it be a scum claim when the game's over? >_< At that point its scum triumphant celebration.

Any feedback on my play? :/

You were okay - but try to be clear when making claim commentary. When you claimed a result of "killing role" and then claimed that your result was "killing" it twigged me on you.
You should have always used the correct terminology - whichever it was, it would have helped your claim.

[Thor665]

No it was pretty OP. We made Ger shoot himself and redirected kthx to ourselves

Clearly...but I FIGURED THAT OUT.

The issue was the role interactions leading me to a false conclusion DESPITE that.

[Thor665]

Redirecting to self target is a little dumb, but inconsequential really.

[Thor665]

Okay, I will only say this one last time. I said "killing ability".

You did say that.
You also said "killing"

That was the issue.

[Thor665]

I literally get one word summing up their ability. Ansuz was 'killing'

First off, you didn't get one word at any point, which was weird enough for you to then say one word when you openly claimed it wasn't one word, but regardless; you should have said "killing ability" and, theoretically for Konowa should have said "vote altering ability".
It's not an 'oh dear gawd' but it was an issue for me and I said as much at the time.

[Thor665]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6229329

Then I can't help you, considering your issue was different just before.

I will agree again that you said that - I never said you didn't.

[Thor665]

That is annoying, but something I reasoned out - the issue is that the redirector was half investigation immune.

[Thor665]

I didn't want to admit to getting one-word abilities because I wanted Ansuz to say something against that - which he did - which cemented him as final scum. Guess that type of thing only really works when, you know, I'm not on the scum list.

Where did you point out that you had caught him by this trick? I do not remember it.

[Thor665]

We all know this.
I agree it's dumb and said so in my setup spec.
That said - I was still able to figure that out and *still* was mislead by the setup info. That's the issue with the setup. As long as it can be reasoned it's not such a bad thing because the mod never claimed that NAR would be followed, so it is not a failure of the setup.

[Thor665]

Around here:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6241741

I guess it wasn't effective for the purpose of making a case, but it sealed the deal for me anyway (though I thought he was final scum since d3x's will).

In that case my critique of your play is that, when you catch scum via a gambit, you should explain the gambit and how it caught scum to the other players instead of not doing that.

[Thor665]

We all know this.
I agree it's dumb and said so in my setup spec.
That said - I was still able to figure that out and *still* was mislead by the setup info. That's the issue with the setup. As long as it can be reasoned it's not such a bad thing because the mod never claimed that NAR would be followed, so it is not a failure of the setup.

it's still shenanigans

I do not disagree, I am openly stating frustration with the setup.
I just want to be clear about what is or is not actual shenanigans. Not following NAR is annoying...but with no clear claim on that to the contrary, and with no one having asked, it is fine. Also, as noted, from results I, a town player, was able to puzzle out that NAR was not being followed - that makes it workable.

What the issue is - is giving scum an investigation immune redirector and thinking that is legit and balanced. Functionally town had two investigation roles, and scum were almost totally immune to one and a third immune to another while also having powerful abilities and the role names making it difficult to even understand the town roles (like, seriously, go read Ger's role and tell me that you understand he was only strong willed on Night 3)

This setup had issues, I will agree with that.

I thought I did, but... Eh. Didn't seem like you'd care for anything I said, really.

And Konowa - shame. You were a strong player until the final day, where you just sat and watched. Why?

You "thought" you did? Where? Because you seem to be quoting it to me and I still don't see the catch.
Also, i pointed out issues with that, and you didn't mention to me that it was a gambit and had caught Ansuz then either.
That was probably poor communication on your part, yeah? That's my advice - work on that.

[Thor665]

Did you investigate as Redirector?

[Thor665]

Did you have a redirect *ability* and were investigated by an *ability* cop?
Did that redirect ability show up to the investigation?

[Thor665]

hiplop, a Vanilla Town, lynched Day 1
Josh B, a Mafia Goon, lynched Day 2

geraintm, a Town One Shot Strong-Willed Vigilante/Day 1 Vengeful, Killed Night 2
Mantisdreamz, aTown Ability Cop, Killed Night 2

Burning_Earth, a Mafia Ascetic, lynched Day 3

kthxbye, a Odd Night Hider, died Night 3
tunnelmates, One Shot Inventor/Bodyguard, died Night 3
Osseus Pseudotripodus, town doctor, lynched Day 4.

d3x - died Night 4
Lynx - lynched Day 5

I'm just going to highlight the kills that, functionally, scum controlled this game.

[Thor665]

hiplop, a Vanilla Town, lynched Day 1
Josh B, a Mafia Goon, lynched Day 2

geraintm, a Town One Shot Strong-Willed Vigilante/Day 1 Vengeful, Killed Night 2
Mantisdreamz, aTown Ability Cop, Killed Night 2

Burning_Earth, a Mafia Ascetic, lynched Day 3

kthxbye, a Odd Night Hider, died Night 3
tunnelmates, One Shot Inventor/Bodyguard, died Night 3
Osseus Pseudotripodus, town doctor, lynched Day 4.

d3x - died Night 4
Lynx - lynched Day 5

I'm just going to highlight the kills that, functionally, scum controlled this game.

[Thor665]

And I missed d3x there actually.

The point being - town functionally got 4 lynches and had 50% accuracy and lost due to an investigation result.

[Thor665]

And that's with scum failing a kill.
And we still could have sorted it save for the investigation.
And with the scum abilities - correct town play is punished on the part of the Hider.

[Thor665]

The way it actually worked was that for a player with multiple abilities the ability cop results was randomly selected from their abilities.

I would like to see the ability cop's role PM.

I think it was a swingy game and it was set up such that early claims would hurt town. Scum had a counter to almost everything this powerful town had going for them, and they made some really fortuitous decisions.

I will agree it was a swingy game.

[Thor665]

Like, if Lynx knew his result would return 'info on one ability regardless of the number they had' then I am so angry at Lynx right now.
And if he didn't I am angry at your setup.

[Thor665]

If the target has a 'watered-down' role (as several of us do from what I've seen), I'll get one result.

That is not the same as saying 'if they have multiple abilities it will randomly generate which one I get info on'
It is also not the same when I say 'how could he have the redirect' and your answer is 'from an invention' wherein you're agreeing with me that he's not a redirector.
Why didn't you spot my confusion and clarify? I was blatantly not understanding what you had said there if you were trying to impart role info. Neither was Konowa.

[Thor665]

When I was like "he'd have to be a scum redirector but your ability didn't detect redirecting"

Your response should have been;

HE COULD BE A REDIRECTOR! MY ABILITY ONLY COPS ONE ABILITY IF THEY HAVE MULTIPLE!"

Instead you did...what you did. What the hell man? Why?

[Thor665]

Like, when I ruled him out as scum because your investigation didn't allow him to be a redirector what did you think I believed? When I was pointing out tha commentary about a "prime" power what did you think I was talking about? Why didn't you say something?

[Thor665]

Ability cop will only give me limited information on a role, especially if its a watered-down role. For example, I won't get strong-willed or compulsive in my results.

And looking at it again, your "for example" is actually *built* to make me misunderstand your role.
No, that wasn't the example.

You should have clarified about multiple abilities. You didn't.

[Thor665]

I dunno, I want to see the role PM, maybe it was written as awkwardly as the flips or something and that would justify it.

[Thor665]

If the player is a weak doctor, you will learn one randomly selected ability (either protective or investigative).

I have to admit, seeing this, I loathe the way you attempted to convey the info to others.

[Thor665]

The fact that you really thought Ansuz could be town, regardless,

[Thor665]

I was trying not to quote it or anything. Not my fault if you didn't understand.

And let me also say.
YES.
That is exactly your fault.

[Thor665]

Get over yourself. You pushed one theory - and kept on at it even when it wasn't disputed, and even though it still wasn't getting us closer to finding last scum. Whatever you weren't understanding wouldn't have impacted the result because you practically conf-towned Ansuz several times, regardless of what I was saying.

When someone doesn't understand your role (as you claim to have fully understood your role) it is your job to explain the role again.
You didn't even try.
Maybe I would have ignored you, but you should have tried to explain the role more than once when I "misunderstood" you.

@ffrey- I blame bad roleclaim at this point.
I actually don't have an issue with the NAR thing because it was possible for town to figure that out. Frankly, I don't have an issue with the weird ability cop as, if it had been claimed it would have changed value calls being made.
I think the setup was scumsided - but, hell, almost no setups are well balanced in theme games so that's not an issue for me.

[Thor665]

@Ktx - what if I had been scum and there had been no redirector? I agree with d3x, you played that poorly. As a claimed Hider you *have* to stick to your claimed targets - as otherwise it can lead to mislynches.
I will admit that the setup was built to screw your role over and hand scum a mislynch, but...even without that you could have done the same if I was scum. The only way your action was remotely justified was if you were pretty darn certain I was town...and at that point you shouldn't be hiding behind me anyway.

@Lynx - for the record, I'm not even as angry as d3x appears to be. But if town is confused by your claim (as I blatantly was) it is on you and only you to keep explaining it till they understand. I would point out that Konowa also clearly was in the same boat as me or he wouldn't have voted the way he did - so that's at least two of us (also known as 'every living town player') you didn't reach and Konowa, unlike me, wasn't even advertising that he didn't understand your role. That is why it is so painfully on you to claim, claim clearly, and keep claiming until all is understood, because it can mess up your team if you are misunderstood. There is a reason I kept repeating my understanding of your role and also how I as using it to clear Ansuz.

@ffrey - I still don't think the NAR thing is that bad, though I am not that pleased with the flips and some other mechanics. It was on town to figure out the NAR thing or ask, I don't think NAR is required for themes. I would note that I figured out a lot of your tricks just fine, and did it by analysis. So I think that's okay. I do think your role names were flat out bad - if someoen is strong willed only on certain nights - that should be reflected in their role name instead of how it was reflected. The same thing with the Inventor/Bodyguard thing - I really shouldn't, as town, have to be asking 'what even is this role' when the roles are, at the end of the day, conventional. I also think that if you design a game like this, that you should expect role and setup spec to matter more - if you don't want that then include less PRs. When there is so much role interaction then town will examine the role interaction for info - that's the way the game works. It's like in that all cop setup, there's a reason scumhunting is secondary - same thing here. I'll also admit I was not a fan of you making an anti-town role like Konowa's whose pro-town play started to be 'don't post much' in lylo. That was kind of a kick to the junk for town in my opinion.

[Thor665]

My god there is some confusion being thrown around in this game
Feels like getting a vanilla town killed day 1 was a fluke and nearly everyone else has a role of some sort
Mod describing me as strong willed when I was only that from night three onwards looks like it has confused people a lot and enabled people to cast assertions on me.

^^^
This

That should have been a 1-shot Vig/N3+ Strong Willed flip.

[Thor665]

@ffrey - though, I dunno, maybe with a Hider you should have been clear. Because you did set up a game where correct Hider play was anti-town.

[Thor665]

A redirector is unquestionably of immense power, especially considering the way this town was built. I agree a Hider redirect is pretty 'ehh....' and that it probably pushed the role into broken - without the town being as accurate in lynching as it was we would have been steamrolled even worse due to that.

[Thor665]

I don't use the term 'broken' lightly, and I did use it there.

[Thor665]

If I was completely inept at playing MS, they sure, you and Thor would have a point and I'm nothing more than a role.

Thing is, I'm more than a role as in a human that can read people through their posting.

I was right and I'd argue that 90% of the time I'd be right (because I know my ability to read people). If I was wrong, sure, it'd be the "wrong play", but taking the chance (imo) is the better play so I played it correctly.

My point is, the only way your play was "right" was if I was town.
If I was town enough for you to take that action due to your read of me then you shouldn't have been bothering to hide behind me in the first place.
That makes your play wrong.

I don't think that's a defensible argument from your point.
Please note this came from someone who chose to argue that you *wouldn't* be a bad enough player to do that. I am frustrated that I was wrong and, kind of like Lynx, worried that you're arguing that what you did was a-ok. It really wasn't, dude.

[Thor665]

fair, but I think it's worth noting that a redirected hider, even though I said it gives the scum three kills in row, actually gives them FOUR

I don't think it's fair to count the kill the night of the redirect - that's an expected kill.
It does give them the redirected death, the mislynch, and a free kill thereafter though. So the power interplay is a 3 kill swing in scum's favor, I'll agree with that.

[Thor665]

And also it does that *if town plays Hider correctly* which is really the dickishness of it.

[Thor665]

Like, i think the setup would have been more balanced without a Hider.
That's kind of crazy to have to say - but true.

[Thor665]

Hider is an investigative role, not a protective role.

[Thor665]

That's like saying supersaint is a protective role.

[Thor665]

i was just reading post game (i was watching tbh) and now i see this fun debte so to end it:

hider wiki link

it by default says its a protective and informative.