Mini 437 - Hacker Mafia - Game Over

[DYH]

FYI: I'm very active during the week, and not around much on weekends.

I'll start with a not-so-random

Vote: Occult

.

[DYH]

Unvote: Occult

FoS: Occult

Vote: Whome?

That comment by Nocmen wasn't directed at you, and the reaction reeks of panic- a quickly typoed response with capitals for emphasis. You seem anxious to get out of a spotlight that wasn't even shining on you.

Your 'oh, no! We have to play smart!' reaction about the modkill rubs me the wrong way, too, fostering the "paranoia" concept Occult brought up earlier and in no way contributing to furthering the thread.

[DYH]

Now a partial vanilla claim? Is there some reason you felt the need to do that? You were only at 3 votes out of six, and if you're going to claim, it certainly behooves you to lay it all out there. =/

[DYH]

You don't have a name / role?

No other accompanying information you could paraphrase?

[DYH]

Yeah, since our doc got himself modkilled, the pace of the game has slowed rather dramatically. Of course, the fact every other post was his might have something to do with that.

I'm in agreement with HautBoy, and as I originally stated, the manner in which you went about your claim is rather suspect. I'll go back and re-read Occult today, I know I was worried about him earlier for the paranoid comment, but I don't recall him "drumming up wagons".

[DYH]

That's madness, I have 5 games going on. Nocmen must be my primary suspect at this point, with VanDamien obviously being his scum mate. There is maybe a third one out there, or a SK. Maybe the one who hasn't posted, darhken.

Maybe the mafia has a handicap too, if darhken is one of the mafia; in that case the doctor's death didn't put us at

complete

disadvantage.

This entire post gives me bad vibes: the sudden reappearance after being called out for lurking, linking two targets as scummates together this early in the game, speculation on a Serial Killer and going on to suggest that the guy who hasn't appeared yet is mafia with a handicap. The manner in which he phrased his reminder we've lost our doc rubbed me the wrong way, too.

FoS: Albert

just reread myself, just the van damien wagon, so the plural is mistaken

But this one is still scummier, IMO. The attack on Occult seems contrived.

[DYH]

Here's the real question, though: What would you have said if he wasn't going to drop the case on Nocmen if you come up innocent?

The subtlety of the maneuver may have been in the lose-lose question you presented to him. Of course, it all began with a pretty baseless paranoid theory about you and Nocment being cross-voting mafiates.

I'm not sure why people are so anxious to jump over possible 'connections' at this stage of the game. It's much easier, and far more reliable, to catch these sort of things once we have a dead scum. Doing so pre-emptively leads people to conclusions that may not be true when someone turns up town (in this case, VD stating he'd drop suspicion of Nocmen if Albert turns up innocent).

[DYH]

First, let me clarify what happened here, Albert, to ensure I have your position straight:

* Nocmen votes you in Post 66 for pushing against Net, who he felt that he clearly blew his cover as the doctor.

* You vote him in Post 88, stating that his justification for voting you was wrong in that Net had clearly not claimed he was the doctor and that he'd "slipped" multiple times. This is pretty OMGUS- 'your vote sucks, so here's mine that sucks, too!'

However, it's important to note that both times Net "slipped" he referred to a town power role. Both times you fished in the very next post 'Does this mean you're not a cop?' and 'You mean a doctor?'. Those two posts are a point against you in and of themselves. Also, you quickly joke around about the Net wiki entry in post 62, one minute after post 61 your question about the doc. Interesting topic quickchange there.

So, let's review your vote:

Basing your accusation on that sole argument justifies my vote for you

Unvote, vote: Nocmen

because its PAINFULLY clear that he wasn't referring to himself as doctor. This is not his first slip either, you have no reason to believe he meant that.

Then why did you ask if he meant a doctor? Clearly that was the first thought you had. Surely you weren't buying that "I was talking to God" stuff that came later. Secondly, When Nocmen continues the case on you in post 75 - where he again references Net as the likely doc - Net votes you in 76 stating 'for Nocmen's post'. It's actually painfully apparent at this point he had claimed doctor.

* You ask Nocmen to remove his vote for you as a 'misunderstanding' in post 99. (When did we start bartering for vote removal? This just seems weird.) You also agree with Tony Montana, who upon re-read has tripped my scumdar, in his post 95 where he discredits Net with:

This "slip-up" is ridiculous. I think Net's eager noob play is losing credibility by the minute.

This looks like scum trying to push the wagon on Net a bit harder to see if they can push out confirmation of the subclaim.

* Nocmen refuses to unvote you in 101.

* You accuse Nocmen of being too proud to admit he's wrong in post 102.

* By post 107 Net has been modkilled and revealed as the doc. You state you wouldn't have voted for Net, though in response to Nocmen's accusation that you were after him before and after the "slip-up". Exactly how I've done it as scum, too, push the wagon on the newbie without hopping on board. Doesn't leave the sticky vote trail.

More to come, conference call...

[DYH]

...continuing.

* Van Damien accuses you and Nocmen of being cross-voting scum in post 111.

* In post 131, VD accuses you of lurking as you have posted elsewhere but not here.

* Occult defends you in 132, re-reads and finds little justification aside from the cross-voting in 133. (Weird, I found the "hey you unvote me, I'll unvote you" transaction bizarre- you didn't?)

* You throw out that Nocmen must instead be Van Damien's scum partner, not yours in post 135. More OMGUS? Foundation? I pointed out the bad vibes this post gave me, but for review:

That's madness, I have 5 games going on. Nocmen must be my primary suspect at this point, with VanDamien obviously being his scum mate. There is maybe a third one out there, or a SK. Maybe the one who hasn't posted, darhken.

Maybe the mafia has a handicap too, if darhken is one of the mafia; in that case the doctor's death didn't put us at complete disadvantage.

There's also the bizarre speculation about a Serial Killer and the "handicapped mafia".

* Post 136 presents the trap question which leads me to this conclusion:

You assume that because Nocmen is attacking you and now that VD has jumped in, they must be scum together. I presume your reasoning here is that because VD chose to vote you and not Nocmen, he's protecting him? He gave the reasoning (active lurking) to select you.

I need to touch on your response post:

Your right. The paranoia about us be cross-voting mafia is exaggeration.

To adress your question tough, I would have gave him my utter and complete trust if he would have continued to say he would vote for Nocmen after my confirmed innocence.

Yet later your assumptions state that Van Damien is likely scum? But you would trust him? I wonder if you fabricated this response because my accusation of you setting VD up to fail in a lose-lose question is true.

Because then he would have to admit that he was wrong about his cross-voting theory, and make concessions that I was right about Nocmen.

He'd need to admit he was wrong about you, yes, but if you're town, your alignment doesn't mean squat about Nocmen's. What precludes him from being wrong and town attacking you?

Dead scum leave the most concrete links- dead townies don't.

Yes there was a subtlety in my question, because if he replied he wouldn't follow the case on Nocmen, I would suspect him even more. If he said he WOULD, then he would be forced to do so unless he breaks his word and become a liar, which would hopefully get him lynched.

LAL is not a valid lynching strategy, especially on such flimsy logic. You want to set him up to be forced to attack Nocmen in the event you die and come up innocent? What sort of justification do you have for this beyond OMGUS gut reaction?

So the choices I give him are far simpler:

A) If he says yes, he can keep suspecting me, but when I turn innocent he must vote his probable scum mate Nocmen.

B) He keeps suspecting me, but refuses to vote Nocmen, even if and when I turn up innocent, which is a tell that he is himself a scum.

C) He drops his theory of us being cross-voting scumbuddies.


DISCLAIMER: Advancing the scummyness of both Nocmen and VD is just speculation of my part. However, these individuals are the most suspicious to me so far and I've presented my thoughts on the situation. I will analyze the issue about Darkhen shortly.

I've already touched on how dangerous linking people this early can be- can you create a case on anyone that doesn't involve a conspiracy theory? Why does every justification you make have to involve your dying and turning up innocent? It feels like you want to push home the fact if you die you'll come up town and take the arguments as such is already fact. I have serious doubts.

You've taken two attacks on you and turned them into OMGUS. You discredited and fished for information from Net. You're using some dubious logic and tactics that don't read townie to me.

Unvote

Vote: Albert B. Rampage

Out of curiosity- how do you feel about:

1. Whome?
2. Tony Montana
3. Occult

[DYH]

DYH, no offense man, but the very core of Nocmen's argumentation was flawed. I thought you had caught that, which made it obvious that Nocmen is either lying or mistaken.

He said I attacked net before and after his slip-up, but how is that claim true in any way ? Look at my

only

relevant post after his slip-up:

Quit whining, there isn't a case on you. If your a townie, just don't provoke any more controversy, and you will naturally survive until the server is fully operational again.

I actually told him he would survive the lynchings. Read between the lines, you can clearly see that I was trying to stop the bandwagon on him.

Well, age and newness aside, net is getting all worked up without even a vote against.

Vote:netixriqua

But shortly after my post and net's slip-up, looky here who starts voting for him. VanDamien himself! If I'm to be accused instead of VanDamien for pushing a bandwagon I was trying to stop by Nocmen, tell me, how can I not believe them to be scumbuddies ?

Firstly, that is not your only "relevant post" after Net's slip. There is also Post 99 where you agree with Tony's assessment in 95:

This "slip-up" is ridiculous. I think Net's eager noob play is losing credibility by the minute.

Oh, and I feel like slapping a big fat

FoS

on

Occult

for calling out lurkers 2 hours after the game started. Eager to direct attention somewhere, or just full of bollocks?

Yes I agree. First net with his string of slips, now Occult.

I don't know what to make of this. The meanings and interpretations vary, the verbatims are too ambiguous and we are running in circles.

I will remove my vote, Nocmen, if you do the same. Let's look back at the posts so far, sum up the main events so far and discuss what course of action to take next...okay dude ?

Secondly, Van Damien's vote of Net came

before

Net's doc subclaim.

Lastly, why would you ask if he was implying a doctor claim if you were truly trying to keep him under the radar?

[DYH]

Yes, this post. It only helps me to clear myself. The topic changes as well do nothing but justify what I've previously stated.

You seem awfully anxious to turn what is primarily a strike against you into somehow aiding in clearing in you.

Why would Nocmen insist on that post pages after the fact ? It was a calculated move to confirm doc's indentity, me says.

More exaggeration- this occurred about three posts down from when you asked the doc question. I will, however, concede that it certainly could be a move to confirm Net's role.

Look at the posting times between net's slip and my post. I thought I was being smart about guessing a cue, apparently not.

And what cue is that? The one where Net confirms that yes he meant a doctor?

Look, what has Nocmen done at all to contribute ? He's only pressured net into talking about his doctor theory. Tell me, what good would that do from a townie standpoint ???

You seem to be missing the point-

you asked if he meant a doctor

. Not Nocmen, not VD, not anyone else. You specifically

asked it.

That's what brought this on.

He's done nothing but being a nuissance to the town all game, and VD, likewise. Creating chaos with his cross-voting non-sense to free his scum mate Nocmen. Don't embark in their game unless your part of it.

I was wondering when this was coming. You've created quite a trend of attacking those attacking you. I'll go back and read Nocmen specifically to see how I feel about his overall contribution.

Why are you redirecting this ? If I think that Nocmen and VD are scum, logic dictates that I concentrate my efforts on them.

So you can't have an opinion on anyone else?

[DYH]

Pardon me for not understanding how you

asking if he meant a doctor

does anything helpful in your favor. Sure, if you'd only posted the bit about the wiki and laughed it up with Occult over that, I could have seen it as an attention shift. The fact that you asked the question, though,

then

changed the subject one minute later doesn't speak to me the same way you seem to think it should.

As for #5, correct me if I'm wrong, but two of those people you're referencing voted you first, right? Retaliatory voting is hardly a town action.

For #6, no this has nothing to do with "turning people against you". I was actually trying to determine if you've just tunnel-visioned in on those attacking you, or if you were paying attention to others in the thread. The response is actually a point in your favor.

Fair to note, however, that my original attack on "Whome?" had nothing to do with the placement of his vote on Net. Yeah, I could see someone making that error as well.

I'll be back later to read through Nocmen's content and to allow some other people a chance to give some input.

[DYH]

Response to Occult's 168: I have suspected Albert since even though net slip up like that, Albert still criticized net before and after that, claiming that net was scum. Net had basically role claimed, and yet Albert was like "ok, lets lynch him still". That is why I voted for Albert.

That's not actually true at all. I'm suspicious of Albert because I think he made a move to get Net to confirm that he was the doctor. I don't see where you think he "attacked" net post-reveal. You seem to be reaching a bit here to throw some dirt.

Furthermore, you did press the doc issue after ABR had asked his question, which was rather unnecessary.

Unvote, Vote Nocmen

[DYH]

@ABR: Meh, not much there other than his attempt to link people early on, which you yourself are equally guilty of doing. He built off my case against you, which I feel was valid. Your "newbie defense" in point 1 above isn't really sitting well with me.

Nocmen, however, took it to another level by adding accusations that weren't true, hence the vote. Reeks of scum smelling blood in the water, and I may need to re-evaluate my position on your play when it's all said and done. We'll see.

[DYH]

Interesting. That's a fair play by the mod, and makes Nocmen a poor place to have my vote.

Unvote

Back later.

[DYH]

I'm tempted to go back and vote for ABR, his shift in demeanor once I'd voted nocmen felt like genuine relief, followed with a nice sprinkle of 'buddying-up'.

To be fair, though, Occult's last post is setting off alarm bells, and I still have a nagging feeling about Tony Montana. I need to do some re-reading, it seems.

[DYH]

It will be nice to have some fresh perspectives from the replacements.

I still need to do my re-read, hopefully I'll get time to do that today.

[DYH]

Welcome, Jordan!

I think given the current circumstances that WhoMe? certainly makes a viable candidate, particularly how he handled the pressure on him early in the game. I can't make case beyond gut feeling on Tony Montana, really, and the ABR/VD fight leaves me disinclined to go that direction today.

Vote: WhoMe?

[DYH]

While a scum certainly would like a counter-claim if they're in trouble, Net was already modkilled as the doctor at the time Whome? claimed, IIRC. The bandwagon on him also happened early in day one, so it's risky to assume he wouldn't have thought it could blow over.

The manner in which he claimed his vanilla role (early in the count and over two or three posts) still rings suspicious, but I'm not adverse to looking for other targets if someone can present a sound case. All in all, though, I'm pretty happy with my vote given my initial reasoning in Post 108.

[DYH]

Here's the situation- we have eight people left, and two killing groups it seems. We're in a situation where if we mislynch, we're going to require assistance from the presumed SK in order to win. Not an ideal situation by any stretch of the imagination.

With that said, it's probably best to withhold voting and rely on FOSes until we're ready to pursue a target to a lynch.

I'm going to take another look back at the thread when I get time- today is shaping up to be quite busy, so likely tomorrow.

[DYH]

Here's the situation- we have eight people left, and two killing groups it seems. We're in a situation where if we mislynch, we're going to require assistance from the presumed SK in order to win. Not an ideal situation by any stretch of the imagination.

Could you possibly elaborate on this, DYH? (Specifically, the statement regarding the SK.)

Sure, sorry for my absence, I was busy over the holiday weekend and haven't been online.

There are 8 people left. If we mislynch today, we have 7 left into night, 2 kills without crossfire would leave 5. I'm assuming 2 scum and 1 SK here. In order to get a majority lynch during the day, the SK has to vote with the town.

Vote: ABR

Should've stuck with this yesterday.

[DYH]

Unvote

Woah, do we even have a claim yet?

[DYH]

I don't think you're misreading at all. I'm totally metagaming from an off-hand comment elsewhere, but I'm feeling pretty good about him being scum.

I'd like a claim immediately.

[DYH]

@ABR: Who did you kill last night?

Unvote

The best play here is to lynch scum, not the SK.

[DYH]

9-1-2 isn't out of the realm of possibility with high mafia power, but I'd prefer to hedge my bets on 8-1-3. In any event, ABR is at least right that we must assume worst-case scenario.

Killing Nocmen is not an option. He's the claimed doc, and we can't risk that until we hit a scum.

I believe I've mentioned that I've been suspicious of TM for quite some time, but never quite able to put my finger on exactly what it was, one comment directed at our modkilled departee aside. I'm certainly not opposed to looking further into this, especially since I'm not enamored with his current panic-ridden tirades.

I'd like a claim from TM.

[DYH]

how as i trying to convince anyone? I just didn't know if 3 mafia and 1 SK was standard. And it's not really strange that i would think that 2-1-9 would be balanced, since 3-1-8 has put us up ****-creek already on day 2

In fairness, the mod couldn't have envisioned a day one townie modkill. That essentially sped up the LyLo process by one day.

[DYH]

Or if you're SK on the verge of a lynch. Look, while it's incredibly improbable that ABR is going to win now that he's out in the open (a tie is possible, I think, I'll have to crunch some numbers), he's certainly not going to win

dead

.

I'm with Jordan, I'm really starting to like the idea of voting for you, TM. How 'bout that claim, eh?

[DYH]

Fair enough, and I'm not condemning you for that. It's moreso your panicked reaction than anything else at this point.

Here's the big picture:

ABR is going to get his, one way or another.

* If he's

not

the SK, there is one out there and he's going to kill ABR (who is then obv mafia) tonight knowing full-well that the game will probably end if he doesn't.

* If he is the SK, he's right in that we can't lynch him on the premise there could be 3 mafia members alive, and with a successful NK, they win. We need to get ahead of the LyLo curve, and then we can deal with him.

EWP: It's mainly because the one truly confirmed townie we have (Jordan) appears very content to pressure you. But fine, I'll add to the 'consensus'.

Vote: Tony Montana

[DYH]

@TM: I'm afraid you're missing the point. If "Script Kiddy" isn't the SK, he's a walking dead man.

[DYH]

Yeah, I think that was the point TM (his mention of alliteration) was trying to make, it seems faked for that reason.

[DYH]

First of all, mafia may have safe-claims.

Second of all, even if he can't self-protect, he can protect someone else tonight, and thus prevent a kill.

You're missing the point. The mafia will kill the doctor. He's not going to prevent anything.

Unvote

I'm really tempted to go back to ABR based on his recent contributions and take my chances there aren't three scum and a serial killer in a 12 player game.

[DYH]

Logically, even if Nocmen is killed tonight, he can still protect someone else.

And if he protects a townie, theoretically you as the SK are supposed to be killing scum, right? So he's not going to protect your kill target. The mafia is going to kill him, and you are going to kill someone else, so his protection is

moot

.

Vote: ABR

I'd rather take my chances on there only being two scum than to count on:

A) his being truthful about the SK claim

and

B) trusting him to kill the person we choose.

[DYH]

[quote=ABR]If we lynch a mafia, I'm not going to lie to you guys, I will try to kill a townie. [/quote]

Yep, which is exactly why you need to die today. We'll never get out from under the LyLo banner with you running willy-nilly offing townies.

At some point we're going to have to risk offing you, and I'd like to take care of it now.

[DYH]

I totally missed the bus with HautBoy; I really felt he was town. Congrats on winning as the SK- that's quite a feat!

[DYH]

@Tony: The funny thing about your fight with Albert over the semantics of his SK claim is that I had you pegged as the

actual

SK as a result. I'd have pushed for your lynch the next day on the wrong grounds, lol.

@YB: I'd definitely be interested in another hacker mafia.