Mini 1558 - VisCon: Crossroads [Game Over]

Post Post #129 (isolation #0) » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:17 am

awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Post Post #131 (isolation #1) » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:19 am

neither?

Post Post #133 (isolation #2) » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:50 am

In post 43, Desperado wrote:
Unvote
Vote: Konowa

50% having the same reaction to #24 that Miffy did
30% flowchart
10% Counterwagoning Pie because he's probably town
10% Who couldn't even be bothered to grace our RVS wagon with a reaction and it was time to move on

In post 45, Desperado wrote:Gut. Why is he scum?

Awkward series of posts.

The vote here is overexplained.

Majiffy buddying also seems out of place in this particular post (like I get early game flowchart jokes haha flowchart awesome [look at ns 132 for the correct version of this trope) but tonewise that isn't what this is; he's leveraging that into an actual reason here despite that 1) Majiffy's done really nothing to prove his alignment at this point in the game and 2) you're sheeping him off the analysis of one flimsy early game reaction test (which by the way PEOPLE SUCK AT ANALYZING GENERALLY but that's not really relevant to this post)

The "this is a counterwagon to pie" thing just gutwise pings badly to me. I'd probably be saying "btw pie is also probably town" and if I can't explain why, at least attempt to get pressure off him in that position...I certainly wouldn't be thinking that this makes my vote on pie's counterwagon any more likely to be on scum at this early point in the game. I only quoted the second post because I think the level of confidence that #45 seems to show in the pie read wouldn't make me jump to quoting it as a reason to counterwagon him. The mindset here just feels wrong.

VOTE: Desperado

Post Post #134 (isolation #3) » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:51 am

Majiffy does look town via smell test through page 3.

Post Post #136 (isolation #4) » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:59 am

Weird that that's the one part of my post that you're willing to comment on.

Majiffy's found something that looks scummy (to him, I don't really agree with his wagon du jour) and is trying to kill the noise floating around it and waylay others from starting other wagons. That's about what I expect from his early town game.

Post Post #139 (isolation #5) » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:49 am

In post 137, Majiffy wrote:I'll consider Desp.

I still want Konawa.

I'm not hugely confident in your (or anyone's, it's not that it's you) ability to get that read right based on a reaction to a reaction test (pie's test having only moderate sarcastic overtones)

Seems like you've got really really wide error bars there.

But I feel like this happens every game with you and me; you develop a really early tunnel on someone, I am lukewarm about it, and then they flip whatever eventually.

Post Post #142 (isolation #6) » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:38 am

In post 125, Majiffy wrote:He has made little to no impact on the game and I think that's because he doesn't want to stir up the waters any more than he already did.

I really don't agree with this unless your reservation is that he lacks breadth.

Post Post #145 (isolation #7) » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:28 am

First off, let's not move the goalposts here because 'game impact' is not even remotely synonymous with 'towntelling', which is not something I asserted he was doing; we're discussing the inverse, namely that you are asserting he is NOT having an impact on the game (and I am inferring that you are calling him scummy for that), which I agree might be scummy if that's what he were doing.

Broadly, he's pushing his few scumreads (desp, pie, possibly my slot?) and the loosest of loose meta on him suggests that this is his MO. There are plenty of slots 'not having an impact on the game' (hi gaiden) and I wouldn't put his in the top 3, especially considering the speed of this game (not very fast).

I'm not asserting your read is wrong, I'm asserting you're confbiasing and because of that I don't feel inclined to sheep you.

Post Post #147 (isolation #8) » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:45 am

In post 146, Majiffy wrote:I'm calling him scummy for 24. I'm saying there's no reason to be renegging that read because of his lack of impact on the game, or any towntelling-attributes in his posts. Which, for what it's worth, would game-impacting. So your attempt to divide the two exclusively is kind of meh.

If I thought 24 was scummy, we'd be on the same page.

You can 'impact the game' (which is a bit loose of a definition anyway) without making your alignment really apparent. Sometimes scum have huge game presence. That's all I've been trying to say as to why I feel that I can see that his posts have game presence and still not necessarily have a good read on him yet.

Before this devolves into semantic wordplay: I'm not sold on that slot as scum at this point in the game.

Post Post #149 (isolation #9) » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:11 pm

In post 148, Majiffy wrote:So I don't know why we're even having this discussion. You seem to be approaching from a townread-mindset.

Yeah, I did come off that way; gun to my head I'd probably call him town right now because we share the Desperado read.

It's more that I'm hoping that you and I can bounce shit off each other this game.

Post Post #161 (isolation #10) » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:00 pm

In post 159, pieguyn wrote:why are you singling Desp out for this? a lot of people were sheeping Majiffy and idk if the bit about "flowchart" was 100% serious. also why do you necessarily have to have someone's alignment sorted in order to sheep them? it's only natural no one will have sorted anyone given it's RVS

He was by far the most awkward about the manner in which he hopped on the wagon; I mentioned plenty there besides the flowchart thing. Like I said, it was a seriously toned post in all manner outside of the flowchart, so it stands to reason I'm not remiss in reading that he think Majiffy is sheepable at this point in the game.

"Why do I have to have a townread on someone to sheep them?" Like really? Do I want to sheep people I don't know or even necessarily think have my best interests at heart?

Are you townreading Desp? If so, why/where is evidence of that before now?
If not, where the fuck is this hostility toward me coming from? I've

never

seen you react to me like this out of the gate before.

Hadn't really made up my mind on the composition of the wagon on you yet, but I obviously found a spot I wanted my vote more than you. Why is commenting on the wagon on you some sort of standard of proficiency for me at this point in the game, considering I've been a part of it for like 10 hours?

If I'd sheeped Majiffy would on Konowa would that be a "consensus scumread" too? Exactly how are you determining that I'm being disingenuous here? Or did you just decide to scumread me and figure out the reason for that after the fact?

(Don't like your slot at all, now, in case that wasn't clear from this post)

Post Post #166 (isolation #11) » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:07 am

In post 163, pieguyn wrote:except IT'S RVS. first off, at that point it's natural that no one knows anyone's alignment. so I don't get how needing to know Majiffy's alignment matters. you're taking this reasoning and applying it out of context which feels like you're trying to come up with a reason to follow the main scumread

second off, it's not like a RVS vote would actually lead to a lynch and so there's nothing wrong with sheeping smth just to see where it goes. so what's the problem with sheeping someone at that point?

I mean yes, RVS happened before that, sure. Like if Desperado had just gone "I agree with Majiffy; vote: konowa" I'd not have batted an eye at it. I'd also have not called that 'sheeping' as much as 'agreeing with a particular argument' so maybe this is a semantic issue with us. Sheeping to me = voting with your townreads even if you don't really have a real scumread on the slot you're voting.

A lot of what I found wrong with Desp's post is tonal and I don't know how to explain it any better than I have. The way that Desp/NS/hiplop are 'flowcharting' are all a bit different.

I'll ask again: what is your read on Desperado?

pieguy wrote:I don't feel confident reading you and I'm really worried bc you generally don't ping me like this, and on top of that there's hardly any pressure on you. so I wanna make sure you don't get by unnoticed

I've caught several scum before by knocking them off balance immediately (BRO in AOT), so damn right I'll come swinging at you out of the gate

I don't object to pressure on me. That's part of the game.

What I do object to and what is jarring (and furthermore kind of aggravating if you're town) to me is that you've developed this scum narrative for my play ("I came in wanting to vote on a consensus scumread"/"I'm scum who was trying to fly under the radar") based off not only what I said in ONE post but also based on what I DIDN'T say there (namely comment on your wagon) and considering the fact that I just joined the game, I have to start

somewhere.

How the fuck does that even begin to approach "flying under the radar?"

pieguy wrote:I'm trying to get you to take a stance on the wagon bc you didn't give one and given it's one of the major things that's happened so far it seems like a good place to build a read from.

Yeah, what it looked like to me was that you were trying to call me scummy for not having already commented on it at the point in the game where you engaged me. Were you not doing that?

pieguy wrote:oh no I'm really scared

Dude, I'm not pretending I've got you fucking figured out after one post, but what you've come at me with so far really looks like you just wanted to scumread my slot and then figured out after the fact what you wanted to do it for.

I'm not resigned to driving a wedge between us so early in the game, so this is as much of a reach out as you're getting from me: I am town. If you're town, it's time to reassess because you're on the wrong track.

Post Post #186 (isolation #12) » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:56 am

In post 181, Desperado wrote:It's the only thing I found interesting, because you said it was weird that I was flowcharting on p2 when he hadn't really done anything to prove his alignment by then, but then later you said he was looking pretty town by p3.

I said 'he looks town via smell test' (aka i have a gut read) through page 3 (a bit after what you posted) due to the fact that this is pretty much exactly how he opened Frozen (which I couldn't talk about at the time because it was ongoing although I was dead and knew he was town in it)

Why were you townreading him at that point?

Post Post #187 (isolation #13) » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:57 am

In post 184, notscience wrote:I'm not sure why they're no flowchart sheeping going on

I kinda have trouble seeing you being 'fuck yeah gung-ho flowchart' after how Frozen worked out.

Post Post #189 (isolation #14) » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:02 am

Post Post #196 (isolation #15) » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:17 am

In post 195, notscience wrote:Flowchart works whenever I'm not townreading the target of the flowchart

And he DID say he thought DBK scum prior to Gaiden's lolvote

That's kinda my point - if others are townreading konowa, should they vote him then? I don't think they should and you apparently don't either.

I mean why all this 'guys it's flowchart time' instead of "hmm maybe I should vote my scumreads and not vote my townreads" regardless of what Majiffy does?
It's fine as an early game opening and even for an RVS wagon or whatever you want to call it. It's going stale now. Why is konowa scum to you?

Want to interact a bit more with pie too - I have some niggles in both directions about his alignment.

Post Post #201 (isolation #16) » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:30 pm

V/LA until Thurs.

Post Post #261 (isolation #17) » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:59 am

UNVOTE:

Post Post #262 (isolation #18) » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:01 am

@Mod: Done with LA

Post Post #263 (isolation #19) » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:04 am

I feel tepid about both neil and bait right now.

Post Post #264 (isolation #20) » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:05 am

Fuck, I feel tepid about pretty much everything in this game.

Post Post #266 (isolation #21) » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:14 am

hiplop should probably die via town controlled kill at some point, but is he always this much of a space cadet?

otherwise after rereading the game I'm thinking bait is <an unquantifiable amount> more likely to flip scum than neil, but neil lynch is lower risk.

Jiffy's kinda right that we never really got (far) out of RVS.

Post Post #272 (isolation #22) » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:20 am

Blarg. I have shitfuck reads on the entire game (and some ones that were probably markedly wrong on entrance) and it makes me feel dirty ending the day like that.

GIF can you talk about gaiden a bit?

Post Post #274 (isolation #23) » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:21 am

In post 270, Desperado wrote:Those were leftover quotes but they do illustrate why hiplop needs to die pretty well so there's that

They do illustrate that he needs to die but not necessarily that he's scum

god I actually have to consciously not end my posts in -b, this is my first solo game in a bit.

Post Post #276 (isolation #24) » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:24 am

Yeah he was town in frozen and scum in most other games I've been in with him and he just always kinda doesn't live till endgame so fuck if i know

Post Post #277 (isolation #25) » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:25 am

232 is scummy though
I'm on board with that much

Post Post #278 (isolation #26) » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:25 am

(that had nothing to do with Gaiden, just reading shit)

Post Post #283 (isolation #27) » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:37 am

I kinda fucking feel we're locked into this with the lethargic rhythm in this game, though.

p-edit: read frozen. town gaiden lurks too, so if that's your only rubric then meh.

p-p-edit: I guess, but saying I'd rather no-lynch than lynch a claimed VT that he's reading because of nothing other than wagon comp is kinda =\

Post Post #287 (isolation #28) » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:39 am

re: bait: I'll allow for it maybe being hyperbole

Post Post #292 (isolation #29) » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:46 am

In post 289, Majiffy wrote:Also this appears to be his first game on-site, which lends further credence to his play.

It's not - 2011 tigers got him.

Post Post #305 (isolation #30) » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:50 am

In post 302, Majiffy wrote:I'm kind of ok with a Desperado lynch but Neil already claimed VT. We might as well start there.

I am no longer ok with a desp lynch

Post Post #307 (isolation #31) » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:00 am

Third option, but not for why you think.

Anyway.

Post Post #309 (isolation #32) » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:06 am

I probably will.

Post Post #323 (isolation #33) » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:09 am

In post 319, GuyInFreezer wrote:No one will join Gaiden wagon bc lol-lurker-as-town-too
THAT DOESN'T AUTOMATICALLY MAKE HIM TOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNN

I agree, but I actually asked you to explain why lurking is making him scum.
And your response was that you hadn't looked at any of his town games so you don't know what he does there - which kinda makes your immediate latching onto gaiden as scum a bit more troubling. Is this or this this not more than a meta case?
I also don't think that anyone outside of Desperado has really called Gaiden town, and they certainly haven't done it because 'he lurks as both alignments therefore he is town here', so I don't understand the frustration expressed in the post I quoted.

(p.s. Desp - why are you townreading Gaiden anyway?)

Post Post #352 (isolation #34) » Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:28 pm

Jiffy how are you feeling about the people that blindly latched onto you yesterday?

@pie - please answer me about your desp read. (Getting back into the game in general would be nice too).

I'm trying to figure out what GIF's death means readwise [if he wasn't killed just for his (odd) crumb].

Post Post #355 (isolation #35) » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:49 am

In post 353, Brian Skies wrote:There was a small handful of people he suspected, but I'm currently leaning towards PR hunting. Do you think anybody he suspected could have felt threatened?

Gaiden if anyone. That was the only person on his list that wasn't being pushed harder by someone else.

Post Post #363 (isolation #36) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:02 am

@EVERYONE: gun to your head, how many scum on the neil wagon?

Don't know, and I'm not prepared to use VCA to clear/condemn people at this point in the game. I'm curious as to where you're going with this considering no scum have flipped.

@ns: are you sheepable?

My hypothesis about Desp (which would have made him definite town) is no longer in play.

Post Post #364 (isolation #37) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:16 am

In post 361, Who wrote:Kalimar, why are you using a dice to determine whom to vote for?

In addition to this being a good question, why roll a D4 in particular?

Post Post #367 (isolation #38) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:17 am

In post 365, notscience wrote:I'm never sheepable, bork.

This is more on the premise that I don't really see town-gaiden here than seeing scum-gaiden.

Since gif really never got around to telling me, I'll ask you: how do you distinguish between town/scum gaiden? Or I guess maybe more on the topic of what you're claiming: what are you

not

seeing here that would be indicative of town gaiden? Does he have one town game you expect him to emulate consistently?

Other stuff I want from you:
How do you feel about Majiffy today after sheeping him onto a town lynch?
How do you feel about particular others who did the same thing?

Post Post #380 (isolation #39) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:13 pm

Ok desp - I'm giving you a little bit of wiggle room. Start being town. I don't particularly have a good track record with meta but you're aloof as fuck this time around and that's just not the you I'm used to.

VOTE: Brian

I don't like Brian's read progressions yesterday or today:

Brian wrote:This whole flowcharting thing isn't giving me any good vibes at all. Bork basically summed up my issues with it earlier, but you have people blindly following you despite disagreeing with you. Some don't even have reasoning. You haven't challenged any of the votes on your wagon (and only challenge those off of it) and now the people who have stated disagreement with you are now just sitting on your wagon so you can get the lynch that you want.

Obviously I agree with the sentiment behind this, but I can't get a good indication that he's really trying to do actually pursue any of the offenders here:

1) 118 - kind of half-heartedly endorses the koneilwa wagon, which doesn't really jibe with what he says here - if he thinks the wagon is on scum then he shouldn't have any problem with all the bussing he apparently thinks is likely. Additionally, his hiplop vote there is pre-hiplop jumping on konowa, so it's not like he's been really scumhunting through jiffy's supporters or jiffy himself.

2) Then you have this out of nowhere D2:

Pretty sure [Bait] requested replacement. Do you still think he could be town? Why?

Implied scumread in that quote, leading up to his vote on Bait's slot directly above me. In addition to his getting absolutely nothing out of his Who vote (why did that even happen? when did he stop being town to you? why did you wait like no time for that to develop?) He is voting like the one person besides myself that reacted in a negative way to all the people lemming-ing the fuck out of Majiffy yesterday, a reaction that he himself apparently shared. Additionally, any semblance of a scumread on Bait yesterday stemmed from agreeing with Desp's point that Bait was chainsawing his scumbuddy (who has since flipped town).

I'm not seeing why he would want to vote here considering all the things I have mentioned. I understand that reads change but they require impetus for those changes - what really happened between 118 and all the other shit I mentioned other than the person Bait was allegedly chainsawing become confirmed town?

Post Post #381 (isolation #40) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:17 pm

Other things:
Don't really like hiplop slot - no visible trajectory on anything and a lot of shit that makes no sense 'herp derp I'ma sheep Majiffy onto my townread cause ?'
I like ns' tone in his response to me if nothing else. I can only tend to read him tonally.

Definitely don't like anyone's fitz votes considering all bait really did was try to derail the fuck out of a wagon on town.

Post Post #383 (isolation #41) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:30 pm

yeeeeeeeeeeeep

Post Post #384 (isolation #42) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:30 pm

where is your head at today?

Post Post #386 (isolation #43) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:35 pm

That seems pretty arbitrary. Why do you say that?

Post Post #392 (isolation #44) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:27 am

In post 391, Brian Skies wrote:Also, when did I ever mention anything about bussing?

It's my attempt to extrapolate how you feel about both the neil wagon and the people on it - basically when you say:

Brian wrote:This whole flowcharting thing isn't giving me any good vibes at all.

I can't tell that this is actually making you feel worse about the neil wagon (the last thing you really say about it is that 'you opposed it until [something he said] happened (118)') because you don't really take any stance about it here so I'm using the last stance you did give. I'd have expected 236 to contain something about being worried that neil was flipping town if you were really that concerned that people were sheeping Majiffy with no reasoning (because if you thought this was a wagon on scum and people were bussing, this should be exciting, not worrying).

re: getting to the root of the flowcharting - how do you feel about Majiffy so far considering his answer to you and his posts today?

Brian wrote:Is this really the only reason you think people are considering Bait-scum?

Considering that I haven't seen any alternate reason, I am again default to reasoning I

have

seen. Feel free to correct me instead of just implying I'm wrong and not elaborating.

Post Post #394 (isolation #45) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:54 am

In post 393, Desperado wrote:unjustifiably

go on...

Post Post #396 (isolation #46) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:58 am

In post 232, Bait wrote:This is an incredibly scummy wagon.

I'd rather no-lynch over hammering this.

While I disagree emphatically with the no lynch part, he's inferring that neil is probably town because the wagon on him looks awful.

This isn't an unreasonable position.

Post Post #398 (isolation #47) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:59 am

I don't agree. If I'm scumreading tons of people on a wagon, I am (generally) going to be disinclined to vote on it.

Post Post #401 (isolation #48) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:12 am

The only slot I can see in Bait's iso that he definitively called town (other than neil by association) is mine, so what are you talking about?

I don't like how you're shifting from defending your initial point (that...calling someone town because you think their wagon is made up of mostly scum is scummy? this point is bad) to refuting the assertion that he even thought the wagon actually was comprised of scum as if you're conceding that what you were trying to argue is not defensible.

I have very little and not recent experience with fitz: give me more than armchair meta please.

Post Post #402 (isolation #49) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:17 am

Wanted to bring this up earlier about Who:

Who went out of his way to attempt to get on the wagon at the end of the day (not even bothering to wait to see if the self-vote counted).

I would not expect this from scum dealing with a town wagon.

Post Post #408 (isolation #50) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:25 am

In post 403, Desperado wrote:How were we supposed to interpret the first quote? Because these look contradictory to me.

Desp wrote:this too

I think that advocating for a no-lynch is anti-town - that all I was objecting to there.

The fact that Neil flipped town makes these actions look good to me in hindsight, not bad.

Post Post #411 (isolation #51) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:28 am

In post 407, Desperado wrote:Actually my initial point is that Bait never had an actual reason to think Neil was town, and his defense of the wagon was over the top.

I think he DID have a reason - that he thought the wagon was comprised of scum.

You can argue the merits of how good a tell that is but it does look to me like he legitimately thought this.

p-edit: why?

p-p-edit: I am confused now.

Post Post #414 (isolation #52) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:35 am

Yesterday I thought exactly one thing Bait did was scummy - I certainly wasn't sold on Bait scum. I also didn't particularly think Neil was scum, so my (scum-bait with scum-neil) thing wasn't really terribly much in play for me.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make - why should I be coming at this from the assumption that bait is scum?

p-edit: Explain why you think that and maybe we can get to the bottom of this.

Post Post #415 (isolation #53) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:41 am

Here's actually the meat and potatoes of what I'm arguing - why are you just disregarding possible town motivation for Bait not wanting to be on a wagon he thought was full of scumbutts in lieu of pushing the scumbutts he called scumbutts, which is what I feel he was doing.

Your angle kind of assumes that we live in a world where exactly one of neil/bait was necessarily to flip scum.

Post Post #418 (isolation #54) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:05 am

In post 416, Desperado wrote:I guess I'm mainly having an issue with "neil-town makes Bait look better, not worse." That's pretty outrageous no matter how you're interpreting Bait's actions at deadline. At best that means that town-Bait was blindly correct about town-Neil, which shouldn't make you feel better about him.

I think we're kind of talking past each other, so I'll try and explain better:

He wasn't really WKing Neil as much as he was attacking the people on the wagon. I think that sort of defense is more likely to come from town that has really no other good way to read the slot sans connections than scum taking a hugely roundabout way to defend someone he knows is town. If Neil had been scum, that might've been the only way he felt he could justify defending the slot without having to lie about it.

Overall I see town saying "I'm not willing to vote with a wagon that has my scumreads on it" way more than I see scum saying it.

I don't see why using bad (in your opinion here) reasoning to give the correct read on someone is more likely from scum.

I feel like I might be getting a little conf-biasy here, for what that's worth.

As far as "who was on the wagon" stuff - I really don't see him townreading anyone on the wagon explicitly unless you infer that "I think Desp/Pie/Gaiden are my biggest scumreads = everyone else is definitely town" I mean 1) there is going to be a max of 3 scum on any wagon so one with 2 is still kinda bad and 2) getting reads is a fluid thing.

Post Post #420 (isolation #55) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:43 am

I'm not really getting 'newb' vibes in general from him. He's way too assertive for that label.

I will endeavor to keep an open mind here, but this isn't clicking for me right now.

Post Post #427 (isolation #56) » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:22 am

In post 425, Brian Skies wrote:Why can't you see scum doing this? It's not like Neil wasn't going to get lynched. Any blame for the wagon could have just been deflected.

Why even put oneself in the position to incur that blame in the first place?

Majiffy wrote:The closest he had to a crumb, as far as I can see, is "I won't be living to d2" or whatever. That's a ballsy position for scum to push claiming PR-tell. His suspects are Who and (to a lesser extent [RVS] but highly plausible in my mind) NS. I can see both of these players offing him because of his unwillingness to work with them / scumreading them.

GIF's latest scumreads were {Desp, Pie, Gaiden, Who}. NS was definitely not on there (GIF had been reading him as town since very early in the game)

Post Post #428 (isolation #57) » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:22 am

Well, since no one else wanted to do it, I did it.

Fitz catchup meta.

This game for reference: 373, 423

Town Fitz Catchups:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5390985
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p5516360

Scum Fitz Catchups:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p5609520
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p5541724

The catchups in this game are actually considerably more IIoA than I've ever seen in ANY of the catchups listed here, even the scum ones. But the superficiality from the scum catchups is kinda there; Moreover, I don't really see any similarities here to what I see in either of the town catchups where he does get down and dirty, call people out for stuff, and engages the majority of slots.

Here it kinda just seems he's suspecting people for suspecting him, and he doesn't have a meta for being an OMGUSy player from the cursory look I've seen and what I remember from Open 505 (town me, town fitz). I actually don't really like the reason that Fitz finally jumped on Desp - I can actually see why Desp brought up my comment from yesterday because I did call something Bait did scummy even if I think he got the wrong overall idea about my read on the slot at the time.

Surprisingly (to me, since I was leaning Bait town), I am inclined to agree with Desp here.

Shift Desp toward more town
Shift Fitz toward more scum
There is still sorting and rereading I need to do to resolve my conflicting opinions but I guess they're probably not scum together?

Brian stays where he is for now because he's not really the one pushing Fitz, and I'm not thrilled about:

I'm actually just sheeping Desp because I think he's town and Desp seems convinced that Bait's scum. I was still lukewarm about Desp's Bait read, but we both saw the same thing with regards to havingfitz's entrance and I moved over.

Mainly because 1) Desp called it a meta read so I'm finding it hard for Brian to know what Desp saw and 2) this isn't really a satisfactory response to the line of his 'can't you see there are other reasons to see Baitslot scum?' => my 'such as?' => 'well I guess I'm sheeping Desp mostly and fitz' catchup is bad for [unexplained]'. That's a dodgy response.

Post Post #434 (isolation #58) » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:35 am

In post 430, Desperado wrote:@ Bork: I based my initial read on this game

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=33008

I probably didn't read it cause it wasn't a replace in and didn't know that there would be a catchup post

Post Post #461 (isolation #59) » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:12 am

In post 453, pieguyn wrote:^I need answers for this. yes I'm going somewhere with this

Please get to that point posthaste - in the time it takes everyone to answer we're gonna be on D4 at this rate.

Wagon speed is making me incredibly nervous, gutwise - I realize this is a weak tell but this is reminding me of yesterday with the sheeping and weak reasoning and just general lack of interactions.

p-edit:

@Mod please confirm votecount is correct - if no voting shenanigans are in play hiplop is not voting where he appears to be.

Post Post #462 (isolation #60) » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:13 am

Like any of the lurkaderps (who, gaiden, ns, pie) could be scum and I really have no fucking way to tell right now.

Post Post #465 (isolation #61) » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:16 am

In post 464, FakeGod wrote:
Oops.

I'll go fix the VC.

Heh, I thought we had another Frozen going on.

Post Post #468 (isolation #62) » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:20 am

Majiffy's play is not wowing me at this point in the game (neither are the other two in that group though)

Like I like the level of assertiveness and the lack of opportunism from yesterday, but he's completely 180ed on that today and I can't tell if his apathy is genuine or not.

Post Post #490 (isolation #63) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:26 am

In post 483, Desperado wrote:I say the Neil wagoners start the mass claim, followed by Bork and Who. We can break this game right now.

How exactly do you plan to break the game here? I've seen zero confirmable roles so far (pie's role is only confirmable really really late in the game, but yeah, that role is probtown and his D2 play supports it). I'm finding it really hard to support a massclaim here and I wonder why you want to do it right now.

My claiming is not going to help confirm me (and I'm finding it hard to buy into your townlist when I'm not on it).

Post Post #491 (isolation #64) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:46 am

VOTE: gaiden

Post Post #500 (isolation #65) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:33 am

In post 496, Desperado wrote:His resistance to massclaiming after towning me d1 for my softclaim is super weird

Yeah, a couple things:

1) I am resistant to massclaim in general.
2) What does 'fakegod setup' mean in general as far as massclaiming being good?
3) How is a massclaim going to help you clear people? This is a fucking important question.
4) If you're seriously summarizing my interaction with you D1/D2 as 'towning you D1 for your claim',

what fucking game have you been reading?

I realize you fucking softclaimed and I backed off. Until I actually know what that claim is, you're just on the fucking back burner, dude. The fitz/you interaction is also something I'm having a hard time making up my mind on.

Like you're seriously trying to paint my skepticism about massclaim being protown as scummy?
Fucking really?

Post Post #501 (isolation #66) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:38 am

In post 494, Majiffy wrote:Bork wake the fuck up and get on obvscum wagon.

I'm only opposed to voting pie out of the wagon comp right now. I still feel like you're hipfiring reads though.

Post Post #506 (isolation #67) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:18 am

In post 504, Desperado wrote:PEdit: I can confirm myself as town on the Neil wagon and someone as town off the wagon. We're massclaiming right now and solving this game, today.

Ok. (I did not have this info before - explanations are good so I can see reasons for shit and make judgments about what is good or not, yeah?)
I'll admit I have read zero Viscon games (and probably wouldn't have expected the mechanics to necessarily be similar between them either).

Majiffy wrote:And furthermore, comes in and says something like "lol I got a concussion that's why I didn't unvote", WHILE STILL NOT UNVOTING?

This is not town play, Bork. Seriously, we need to run with this.

Ok. If pie/desp are both confirmed town though, I'm still back to why GIF was killed if his reads were actually so bad (and that points back to gaiden actually being the one that wasn't a bad read since he was 1) pushing gaiden the harder than he pushed desp/pie and 2) the only one pushing gaiden). Let's not forget that going forward.
VOTE: hiplop

Post Post #507 (isolation #68) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:19 am

And I will claim when I'm told to (but seriously, putting me in the same tier as Who is borderline insulting)

Post Post #508 (isolation #69) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:22 am

In post 504, Desperado wrote:Yes. Go read Minis 1489 and 1523, familiarize yourself with this series of games, and come back here and just fucking listen to me.

Like, realize that your conclusion (this is scum motivated) does not follow from your reasoning (I don't understand what is going on here because I have no information about it)

Post Post #509 (isolation #70) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:25 am

If anything you should be MORE worried about people who are willing to write you off as town without you explaining ANYTHING about your role (which AFAIK you didn't do until this page)

Don't confuse this with rolefishing either, because it's not (and this would be a bigger deal if you didn't want to massclaim anyway). I'm trying to make a judgment about whether or not your abilities make you more likely to be town and I can't do that until that claim comes.

Post Post #510 (isolation #71) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:28 am

You've played with me before, Desp. Especially town me.

This mindset should be akin to my dropping my pants and your seeing 'town' tattooed on my penis.

Post Post #535 (isolation #72) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:04 am

I don't have anything to say until we're past massclaim.

Post Post #537 (isolation #73) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:08 am

In post 536, havingfitz wrote:Why is Desp "confirmed town?"

[Interpret as: "If after massclaim it turns out to be the case that Desp is confirmed town". Desp said "I can confirm myself and someone off the wagon as town"]

If he's lying then fine, but that's a pretty black and white claim to make.

Post Post #540 (isolation #74) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:14 am

In post 536, havingfitz wrote:I saw your reason. Bravo. Aside from you...no one else has provided a reason for voting hiplip over any of the others on the D1 mislynch.

I honestly don't really have one other than trying to townbloc. hiplop/ns/gaiden all look pretty bad for different reasons. hiplop's has been that his statements are generally blatantly full of cog-dis.

Post Post #566 (isolation #75) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:07 am

Desp are you able to do what you planned on doing sans massclaim? Because it doesn't look like we're gonna get it at the rate this is going.

Post Post #568 (isolation #76) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:20 am

In post 567, notscience wrote:Hi, Acknowledging my turn to massclaim but I need my role pm for flavor and I accidentally deleted it a few weeks ago. Will update as soon as I get it.

In terms for reads, I'm at-

bork-town because it sounds like Frozenbork

Majiffy-townlean but it's majffy so I'll probably waffle on this

Fitz- scum, I don't like his selectiveness regarding the lurkersheep (this is 100% OMGUS btw)

Brian- Townlean because lolmeta

pie- town because of claim

Gaiden- doesn't look like town gaiden but it's not like that's incriminating in and of itself >.>

I'm not impressed by this list (especially cause you didn't even mention wagon du jour of hiplop) but also because of the lack of any kind of effort or engagement.

I mean start even with your read on me - I was an innocent child in Frozen from like page 2 on and therefore had no need to demonstrate any modicum of transparency. You're really towning me cause of meta based on that?

Post Post #578 (isolation #77) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:15 am

If Desperado can clear people he needs to fucking come in here and clear people.

Post Post #582 (isolation #78) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:42 am

In post 579, Desperado wrote:I'm not claiming before 75% of the game.

And if you die tonight (since we're pretty obv not getting massclaim today)?

Post Post #583 (isolation #79) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:43 am

In post 581, Majiffy wrote:I really don't think the clearing is as clear-cut (hahaha see what I did there) as it's being made out to be.

I agree since if I were desp with desp's reads I'd have fired the fucking thing on Fitz by now

Post Post #585 (isolation #80) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:45 am

Okay.

Post Post #587 (isolation #81) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:48 am

It means that if you can "clear" (and I guess I don't know how your thing works so if it doesn't make sense this is why) someone off the wagon, I am presuming you have to target someone with it, and I would want to target a scumread with it.

If my presumptions are untrue then *shrug*

Post Post #590 (isolation #82) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:52 am

I love the GIF but I don't get the context

Post Post #628 (isolation #83) » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:08 am

tacos

Post Post #639 (isolation #84) » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:35 am

2 scum (assuming pietown?) in: Majiffy, notscience, Desperado, SXTLHGaiden.

NS is really playing to his scum meta at this point.
Jiffy has spearheaded two lynches onto town.
Gaiden is no less worthless than normal (why the fuck did our town controlled kill (?) not go here?
If Desp really can prove himself town, we just need to figure out the one town in the other three.

1 in (pie, kal, brian)

I still think Brian is the scum off. He has done fucking NOTHING this game except ask open ended questions and not follow up.

Post Post #641 (isolation #85) » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:41 am

Post Post #644 (isolation #86) » Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:24 pm

Order should be at this point:
Gaiden/ns (seriously your two next posts should be claims) -> Majiffy -> me (as a gesture of good faith I'll be the first person off the wagon to claim) -> brian -> kalimar - > desp

Does that sound fine and can we finally do this for the love of fuck?

Also pie maybe post something besides a prod dodge EVER?

Post Post #649 (isolation #87) » Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:31 pm

I don't actually know.

I'm willing to entertain alternate hypotheses on how we had two deaths last night, in the meantime. I wish I had any idea of what these flipped roles did. Who's role sounds coppish? I don't fucking know?

Unless he's like a hider or some shit. I'll look for a crumb

...in which case Who wasn't the NK after all, but let me check.

Post Post #651 (isolation #88) » Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:34 pm

Ok if who was a hider there is no chance he hid behind anyone but Fitz (which means that Fitz was actually the NK and Who died collaterally) which means scum got lucky as fucking balls or rolecopped him or something.

Or we have a vig. *shrug*

p-edit: agree!

Post Post #653 (isolation #89) » Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:40 pm

That's about the long and short of it.

Post Post #661 (isolation #90) » Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:52 am

ns/majiffy:

Stop stalling and fucking claim. You guys have been active on site. It's not hard.

Post Post #666 (isolation #91) » Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:08 am

Be aware that this is very possibly MYLO.

(but I agree with your point)

Jiffy: fucking claim. Jesus christ.

Post Post #671 (isolation #92) » Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:28 am

V/LA till tomorrow night, family in town

Post Post #708 (isolation #93) » Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:39 pm

Claim: Villager (VT)

I have no idea what to do with any of these non-VT claims (save Majiffy's: I'm convinced he's town and it explains the extra kill)
None of these so far confirms the claimant in any way, nor does it clear any person they've investigated.

In fact, Desp I am underwhelmed as fuck as to how this is allegedly 'breaking the game'. You don't appear to be claiming masons with Brian (he in fact clarified it to be neighbors) so how in the Christing fuck do either of you know the other to be town like you've both been asserting all game?

Post Post #722 (isolation #94) » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:30 am

In post 717, Desperado wrote:It states that Aetis and I are traveling together. The same way it has stated that in the last two VisCon games. As in, if I quoted the role PMs that FakeGod released from the previous two games I would be concerned about getting modkilled.

So, once again: unless you think this is the game that FakeGod tells Lizen that she is traveling with Aetis but actually gives Aetis to the scum as a fakeclaim, Brian is town.

This is unwarranted assumptions out the ass. If FakeGod wanted you two to be confirmed town he'd have made you masons.
I see zero reason to think 'hey these are characters that I've seen before in exactly two other games, confirmed town end of discussion' and not even attempt to question that.
There may or may not be fakeclaims involved. I admit that I am entirely uninvested with the flavor in this game because

it really shouldn't matter.

Like this is even weaker than role/balance spec. It's nothing but flavor spec, and it's really some of the weakest flavor spec I've ever seen.

I would not even be remotely surprised to find 1 scum between (Desp, Brian) despite how this game has been supposedly 'broken'.
Both of their play has been lacking to me this game.
Brian's reasons for townreading Desp, which I believe can be distilled down to 'really vague meta' don't jive with the level of confidence he's displaying in the read.
Desp's play has been...obtuse is the best word? I like displays of paranoia (even on me) but the reasons he gave for it (opposing massclaim) were really bad, this massclaim thing hasn't even approached 'breaking the game' and I'm actually feeling a little better about Gaiden lately, which is pointing to others on the neil wagon.

The only thing that's really giving me pause here is that 2 scum neighbors don't really work for me which is making me want to say they aren't a team, even if I'm scumreading them independently.

Post Post #757 (isolation #95) » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:10 am

In post 753, Majiffy wrote:I'll probably shoot Kalimar next jsyk.

You can't do this if we don't hit scum today (and he's not really one of my top picks either - why is he for you?)

If we lynch town on the neil wagon you need to shoot on the neil wagon or we probably lose.

Unless pie is scum, in which case we're just kinda boned I think.

Post Post #775 (isolation #96) » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:01 am

Ugh.

I seriously don't fucking know what to do here.

Post Post #777 (isolation #97) » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:12 am

Figuring out which (or both) of Desp/ns is scum.

They're both pretty scummy and I'm doing shitty on townreads.

Post Post #781 (isolation #98) » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:21 am

I am fresh outta fucks

VOTE: ns

Post Post #795 (isolation #99) » Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:48 pm

I was just thinking what this game needed was an entirely opaque mechanic on top of the flipped roles that I know nothing about

Post Post #808 (isolation #100) » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:32 pm

Brian has done nothing worth a shit the whole game. Someone please fucking prove me wrong, I'm trying to evaluate and see literally zero that suggests Brian town. I have no idea what to do with the witch cop thing - we have scum witches in prior games and town witches in this one so far and the sample size on that is fucking ass and ultimately tells me nothing.

I feel about Kalimar about how Pie does - optimistic but not townbloccy.

pie himself has weirded me out considering I feel that last post of substance he made was like around a fucking month ago when he engaged me on my early game reads? His roleclaim is keeping him afloat but I can't fucking evaluate it because I know nothing about what has flipped.

Majiffy's reads are not terribly transparent but hey we had two deaths on one night so that;s a thing.

Gaiden is never transparent but it seems like he's trying to figure shit out in his own way (?)

Additionally, I'm trying to be patient with this whole 'Aetis + Lizen' = OTP Town thing but it makes no fucking sense in the context of this game and the people purporting it SHOULD FUCKING REALIZE THAT THERE IS NO ALIGNMENT GUARANTEE FROM GAME TO GAME

THIS IS NOT FUCKING ROCKET SURGERY

I know literally nothing about what has flipped.

I need to know what this marked shit fucking means (or rather, if it can possibly mean that this is surprise MyLO because AFAIK this is 5:2 which is decidedly not anything-LO).

If it didn't come across, I am just a little bit frustrated with how this is going, even if we did lynch lurkscience yesterday.

Post Post #809 (isolation #101) » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:41 pm

In post 669, pieguyn wrote:borkjerfkin kirroha <- everything in his ISO seems town motivated and it'd be fucking sad if the only person putting a lot of effort in here was scum

Like compare this post to #163

Where is the trajectory?

There isn't one. And there isn't one for anyone on anybody.

And that's fucking bullshit.

This is a reachout to anyone who's actually fucking town and this isn't some crazy multiball fuck where I'm the only one left: what the fuck are you doing in this game?

Post Post #810 (isolation #102) » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:45 pm

In post 808, borkjerfkin wrote:SHOULD FUCKING REALIZE THAT THERE IS NO ALIGNMENT GUARANTEE FROM GAME TO GAME

FakeGod wrote:Note: VisCon games will share flavor, but there is no setup/alignment/role information guarantee between the games.

v

FakeGod wrote:Note: VisCon games will share flavor, but there is no setup/alignment/role information guarantee between the games.

v

FakeGod wrote:Note: VisCon games will share flavor, but there is no setup/alignment/role information guarantee between the games.

Like fuck your crap alignment conjecture, desp.

Post Post #811 (isolation #103) » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:51 pm

In post 808, borkjerfkin wrote:we have scum witches in prior games and town witches in this one so far and the sample size on that is fucking ass and ultimately tells me nothing.

Actually the fact that he has only reported results on 1) known entities or 2) scum also does nothing to affirm the legitness of this role

Post Post #813 (isolation #104) » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:55 pm

In post 812, Desperado wrote:I also don't believe FG would give the scum Aetis as a fakeclaim based on my experience as scum in the two previous iterations of this story. I have been clear about this from the beginning.

That's fucking great but it has no basis in reality.

Post Post #814 (isolation #105) » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:57 pm

Like what do you really know about Aetis? Why is it even necessarily a fakeclaim? I mean it could be and it could also be Aetis is a scum role.

Like this is a universe in its infancy that you really don't know as much about as you're saying you do.

Post Post #815 (isolation #106) » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:57 pm

And if you're town you should damn well care about what I think

because you goddamn better well know I'm town by now.

Post Post #816 (isolation #107) » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:00 pm

In post 812, Desperado wrote:I have been clear about this from the beginning.

Like why is this even relevant? I've been clear about the fact that I think this assertion is fucking garbage from the beginning.

Post Post #817 (isolation #108) » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:02 pm

In post 812, Desperado wrote:me/Majiffy/Gaiden contains 1 scum

And gaiden via PoE works for both alignment versions of you, so your opinion on it is noted but really gets me nowhere in and of itself.

Post Post #818 (isolation #109) » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:05 pm

In post 811, borkjerfkin wrote:Actually the fact that he has only reported results on 1) known entities or 2) scum also does nothing to affirm the legitness of this role

And why are you ignoring huge warning klaxons like this in favor of 100% flavor spec?

Post Post #820 (isolation #110) » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm

In post 819, Desperado wrote:Because we've discussed his targets every night?

That is fairly compelling. Why did you pick who you picked?

Post Post #835 (isolation #111) » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:50 am

well that was the fakest 'herp derp i didn't know it was a hammer' ever

Post Post #836 (isolation #112) » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:51 am

seriously if it's pie/jiffy i need to never play mafia again

Post Post #839 (isolation #113) » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:53 am

so now we get to find out what marked means maybe?

if we just lost

1) don't give a fuck. People played bad/didn't give a shit/purported terrible strats.
2) I still know fucking nothing about the setup at SomethingLo/whothefuckknowsLO

Post Post #841 (isolation #114) » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:54 am

gaiden what about pie because that hammer was fucking ass?

Post Post #842 (isolation #115) » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:54 am

I don't see town pie 'hey guys I'm totally in the game and shit, really I am, lemme just IDGAF hammer and bail outta town again'

Post Post #844 (isolation #116) » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:56 am

Like you were literally the most town person in the game besides me and Kalimar

Process that, cause you know how I usually feel about you.

Post Post #846 (isolation #117) » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:59 am

The best part about it is worst case scenario, I can shelve this catastrophe of a game for 3 more days

Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:52 am

Whatever.

Gut reaction:

1) This setup was kind of bullshit. There was literally no way for me to even get an inkling of what was going on in the game - it was literally all up to the PRs to play well and not get NKed - we were just along for the ride.
2) Outside of Desp my reads were awesome but it didn't matter.
3) Desp, man, I'm not gonna rub it in but I wish you'd have at least considered that Brian wasn't confirmed town.

Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:00 am

In post 852, FakeGod wrote:This setup was quite town-sided due to a number of factors. Scum can only kill two players (witches) in the entire setup, and they have no reliable way to find them other than brute force.

I really wholeheartedly disagree with this and you can see it in the night actions: scum are making 2 kills in a night, have an investigation on a third they can kill, and have a mechanic to off the ones they don't kill later on in the game.

It's one thing if the expectation is as such, but running this as a closed setup with basically massclaim being a death sentence, you've wiped out any sort of way you can claim this was townsided.

Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:03 am

Not to mention the lack of flip info, and that was what bred apathy (at least for me) more than anything.

Post Post #874 (isolation #121) » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:51 pm

In post 860, FakeGod wrote:Can you elaborate what you mean by "There was literally no way for me to even get an inkling of what was going on in the game - it was literally all up to the PRs to play well and not get NKed - we were just along for the ride."?

So now that I'm calmed down a bit

1) Willing to admit that this is at least ~25% butthurt
2) that out of the way

a) There was no way of knowing how absolutely detrimental massclaiming was going to be for us. Like it was instantly fucking lose levels of bad. Generally massclaim is moderately anti-town, but here it was reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllly anti-town.

b) The marked/kill win mechanic didn't hinder scum. Partially because of a), but really by N3 it could be reasonably assumed that all the witches were gonna be hit or at least known. Additionally, there was no real way of knowing how fucked we were until it was too late. I am especially close to this point because I made a similar mistake in my touhou game (which I stacked with hugely strong town PRs and scum still rolled town in). This would have been much better run as an Open.

c) no flips basically made it impossible to setup spec, and the bit part role compared to the named roles made it impossible to flavor spec from my PoV, which really left me out in the cold when Kalimar posts his wall of flavor and I'm thinking, 'yeah, well, I ostensibly live in the town I guess'. This + a) is probably the biggest issue - we were punished for both claiming (by scum mechanic) and by not claiming (by partial flip)

d) The PRs pretty much did nothing. These PRs in particular were entirely dependent on the scumhunting ability of the players with the role (in niche situations at that) and not at all dependent on my ability to analyze the validity of them to either scumhunt them wrt claim or to analyze actions post death because I had no way to figure out what the roles even did outside of massclaim which this setup punishes.

All that said, we played like shit and so it goes, but I never felt like I really had a shot.

Post Post #877 (isolation #122) » Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:07 pm

Oh:

Meanwhile, in [strike]crazyville[/strike] Desp/Brian QT wrote:Bork is last scum i think

I mean geez man. This was like N3. Like how?

Post Post #879 (isolation #123) » Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:13 pm

I think going for kills was objectively the best play, yeah.