Mini 1558 - VisCon: Crossroads [Game Over]

[Desperado]

VOTE: Who

RVS wagon are the best wagons.

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: Konowa

50% having the same reaction to #24 that Miffy did
30% flowchart
10% Counterwagoning Pie because he's probably town
10% Who couldn't even be bothered to grace our RVS wagon with a reaction and it was time to move on

[Desperado]

Gut. Why is he scum?

[Desperado]

@GIF, Desp:

what are your thoughts on Bait?

He and Kalimar are shadowing each other re: Pieguy. I don't think it's rehearsed; leaning towards scum-Bait following town-Kalimar--I don't think they're both town and Bait's chainsaw was significantly less subtle

[Desperado]

Uh, ok?

Do you disagree? What do you think happened?

[Desperado]

pssst already am

[Desperado]

Uh, ok?

Do you disagree? What do you think happened?

That's not how you treat a scumread, especially if you think Baitscum is chainsawing for my defense.

Oh it isn't?

Please teach me The One True Way.

[Desperado]

Really not into this whole fealty thing. You can probably stick to Majiffy for that.

But since you asked nicely.
#68 was a bunch of crap that can be easily defined as arbitrary. Nothing in the post contains any substance other what neatly fits your little pet theory. When confronted by my vote, you question why I, your scumread, would disagree with your view on my potential buddy. What? #70 makes little sense from a Town perspective if you truly thought I was scum and Bait was my buddy.

I didn't question WHY you disagreed, I was inviting you to explain HOW you disagreed.

[Desperado]

Perhaps by giving your own interpretation of events and how you concluded that I was scum?

[Desperado]

It's difficult to convince the rest of the town that I'm right if you refuse to play, you know?

[Desperado]

Gut. Why is he scum?

I didn't like 20. He was content to joke around with that sort of RVS scumclaim-esque joke in Ace Attorney Mafia, but here he goes on the offensive on it. If it was a reaction test, it didn't feel like it.

The rest of his posting feels a little lethargic tone-wise, and I'm not quite sure what made him transition from GiF scum to GiF town.

Interesting, thank you.

Thought I posted last night but it evidently I never did.

Forget what I wrote, but I find Desp incredibly scummy.

I bet you do.

Kalimar is town.
Gaiden is not.

VOTE: Gaiden

NS is town for daring to gladiate me.
Gaiden is scum for lurking.

What's with all this lurking bullshit on page five? Especially considering Who and Gaiden both lurk hard regardless of role PM.

[Desperado]

What happened on p3 that made Majiffy look town?

[Desperado]

Weird that that's the one part of my post that you're willing to comment on.

Majiffy's found something that looks scummy (to him, I don't really agree with his wagon du jour) and is trying to kill the noise floating around it and waylay others from starting other wagons. That's about what I expect from his early town game.

It's the only thing I found interesting, because you said it was weird that I was flowcharting on p2 when he hadn't really done anything to prove his alignment by then, but then later you said he was looking pretty town by p3. Considering he's been pushing the same case in the same way the whole game (in other words, prior to p3) I didn't really understand where you were going with it. So what's up?

[Desperado]

So
{Desp, pie, Gaiden} scumteam?

All town, try again

[Desperado]

Why were you townreading him at that point?

Because we saw the same thing in #24. I said this in the post you called me out for.

[Desperado]

So lets fucking lynch someone already

[Desperado]

...

The person im voting

[Desperado]

Why? He probably took one look at his scum pm and startedsprintung the other direction. He hasnt even madr an entry post.

[Desperado]

I'm here, haven't even really had a chance to run through the thread yet and read over anything. Just realized it looks like I'm today's lynch. I'm definitely a townie. But I'm trying to figure out, is there any point in me spending my time reading through 10 pages to try and help if I'm just going to be lynched and it all be for naught? If so, I can just self-vote and help you guys get to the next day.

Although I'm pretty sure the Mod will give an extension on the deadline. So if you're voting me for

lack of time

, that seems like a stretching unreasonable place to put your vote, not a compromise and that my friends, is scummy. So should I be lynched before I have a chance to even read through the game, catch those reasons and lynch those scum on my wagon.

Claiming your actual role would go a long way towards determining the best course of action

[Desperado]

Bait's right

Unvote
Vote: Bait

[Desperado]

Why my vote wasn't already on you I don't know.

Unvote, Vote: Desp

This is the wagon for us today. Look at how Desp changes right after he's forced a claim. VT claims do not reverse supposed "scumreads".

Actually I changed right after you put up a giant neon sign that read "I KNOW NEILSLOT IS TOWN!!!!!!"

[Desperado]

I don't think you're being serious. What're you actually thinking Desp?

huh???

I think Bait's scum. He comes in at L-1 and says he'd rather fucking nolynch than lynch auseless slot that a) was scummy, b) already flaked once, and c) didn't have a great entrance?

No. There is no legitimate justification for Bait to feel that strongly about town-Konowa/neil--because he doesn't have one, he just knows it to be true.

[Desperado]

Majiffy, I know you saw that too. Vote Bait with me.

[Desperado]

Majiffy, I know you saw that too. Vote Bait with me.

I don't think so.

Why are you dismantling the only legitimate wagon with less than 48 hours to deadline for a vanity wagon?

Bait's reaction to the L-1 was that scummy

[Desperado]

If neil flips scum I know who I'm voting tomorrow

You gonna tell the rest of the class?

[Desperado]

PS I'm pretty sure I can get Bait lynched in less than 48 hours

[Desperado]

We already have two. Neil will vote him out of self preservation. Brian will sheep me. GIF and Gaiden clearly don't give a shit who gets lynched at this stage. That's 6 right there!

I know you'll be a good sport and hammer at that point so how about we just skip all that?

[Desperado]

Maybe the person trying to hard to start a counterwagon?

lol

If Neil flips scum I'm conftown.

[Desperado]

I don't need his flip for that and I'm not confident it's gonna be red so...no.

[Desperado]

And pray tell how you confirm yourself as town to us without flipping Neil.

FakeGod setup.

[Desperado]

Hiplop?

[Desperado]

konowa seems like a good fellow to me

VOTE: konowa

i've learned to always sheep majiffy always

^ because im an idiot!

tbh I kinda see konowa as town, though I also have no other substantial reads quite yet

Unvote
Vote: Neil

[Desperado]

Those were leftover quotes but they do illustrate why hiplop needs to die pretty well so there's that

[Desperado]

What are your reads, GIF?

[Desperado]

Gaiden lurks. It's how he always plays. There's no marked difference between him here and Desert Kingdom.

But he could definitely be scum.

[Desperado]

Doesn't take a genius to put yourself into his shoes.

He doesn't have reads. He's done nothing but hand out townreads and sheep GIF's scum team.

[Desperado]

{You, pie, gaiden, Who}

Are you reading?

You really shouldn't be reading me as scum anymore.

[Desperado]

konowa seems like a good fellow to me

VOTE: konowa

i've learned to always sheep majiffy always

^ because im an idiot!

tbh I kinda see konowa as town, though I also have no other substantial reads quite yet

Why is Bait town?

[Desperado]

lol why are those posts still there

[Desperado]

(p.s. Desp - why are you townreading Gaiden anyway?)

Stronger scumreads + tone

[Desperado]

I don't have anything else to add. Bork should just hammer whenever he gets here.

[Desperado]

Vote: havingfitz

@ Bork: It's still very much in play, trust me.

[Desperado]

"All he did d1 was try to unjustifiably derail a lynch on a townie" sounds like a mighty fine reason to suspect someone as scum to me.

[Desperado]

Did anyone give a reason why konowa/neil was town?

[Desperado]

With no flips? Hell yes it is.

[Desperado]

But he was only scumreading two of us

[Desperado]

So even with Neil's selfvote the wagon was still majority-town to Bait.

PS Fitz' catchup was scum-Fitz.

[Desperado]

15mins late to the prod...

So
{Desp, pie, Gaiden} scumteam?

All town, try again

So we got the scumteam ok.

Also:

p-p-edit: I guess, but saying I'd rather no-lynch than lynch a claimed VT that he's reading because of nothing other than wagon comp is kinda =\

While I disagree emphatically with the no lynch part, he's inferring that neil is probably town because the wagon on him looks awful.

This isn't an unreasonable position.

How were we supposed to interpret the first quote? Because these look contradictory to me.

[Desperado]

232 is scummy though
I'm on board with that much

this too

[Desperado]

What happened to make 232 suddenly a reasonable thing for town to say?

[Desperado]

Re: Fitz: that's all I have right now

[Desperado]

I don't like how you're shifting from defending your initial point (that...calling someone town because you think their wagon is made up of mostly scum is scummy? this point is bad) to refuting the assertion that he even thought the wagon actually was comprised of scum as if you're conceding that what you were trying to argue is not defensible.

Actually my initial point is that Bait never had an actual reason to think Neil was town, and his defense of the wagon was over the top. Tacking on bullshit like #342 that doesn't even reflect reality (neither Gaiden nor myself had done any retroactive case building) looks like scum scrambling to justify his position.

[Desperado]

wut

So if Neil had flipped scum you'd be more likely to think Bait is scum?

That's really, really silly.

[Desperado]

Why on earth were you interpreting Bait's end of day actions as scum protecting a buddy and not WKing town?

[Desperado]

Yesterday you said Bait was scummy. There are only two options for what Bait was doing at deadline yesterday--WKing town-Neil, or protecting scum-Neil. You said Neil flipping town makes you feel even better about Baitslot. So you had to have been assuming the latter option yesterday.

[Desperado]

And I'll take it a step further and say that had Neil flipped scum, Bait would be nearly conf-town for me.

So basically I think you've got this entire situation assbackwards, and I'm curious as to why.

[Desperado]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make - why should I be coming at this from the assumption that bait is scum?

And now we're back to whether wagon composition is enough justification to form a read.

I guess I'm mainly having an issue with "neil-town makes Bait look better, not worse." That's pretty outrageous no matter how you're interpreting Bait's actions at deadline. At best that means that town-Bait was blindly correct about town-Neil, which shouldn't make you feel better about him.

PEdit: Because I think Bait's reasoning was trash. It wasn't "full of scumbutts," it was 5 town 2 scum. And the reason that he tacked on in #342 wasn't genuine.

[Desperado]

Like, if it had been mid-day and the wagon on Neil was Desperado-Gaiden-Majiffy...I could see him coming to that conclusion.

But that wagon wasn't driven by his scumreads.

[Desperado]

The other part of it is that I don't think Bait was "getting reads" at all. He was shadowing Kalimar in the early game and he sheeped GIF's scumteam. Coupled with him overdefending a wagon on a VT...it just all reads newb-scum to me.

[Desperado]

@ Bork: I based my initial read on this game

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=33008

[Desperado]

And that Fitz post is hilarious.

[Desperado]

Pretty much everything he says is either taken out of context, a misunderstanding on his part, or both.

[Desperado]

But I walled with scum-Fitz once; not doing it again. He's scum and he is getting lynched today.

[Desperado]

"Catchups" are just a part of his style. He is never consistently active, so a lot of his activity consists of him going over 5+ pages of content.

[Desperado]

I'm not voting anyone else today, or for the rest of the game, until havingfitz is dead.

[Desperado]

Two reasons:

1. I already tried that once and wasn't successful
2. I don't think I'm going to need to to get you lynched this time anyway so QED

[Desperado]

2

[Desperado]

2

So pretending you are town....you're guessing 2 scum on the D1 mislynch, which would mean a 50% chance of hitting scum from your Pov. Yet you go for the <17% odds off the wagon.

Brilliant

I only think there's 2 scum on there because I have townreads of varying degrees on everyone that was off...except you.

[Desperado]

P.edit to Desp...that doesn't take away from the fact that ~townyou is ignoring the much better odds your own suspicions point to.

No, my suspicions point to you being more likely scum than anyone else.

And I will never be getting lynched this game, so you're probably right.

[Desperado]

@ Bork: The only vote that concerns me is hiplops but he probably decided to bus anyway so I'm not really sweating it.

PEdit: The latter two, at this stage.

[Desperado]

I doubt i'm scum. But seriously, why didn't desp die last night? This is an important question.

How about you stop beating around the bush and get to whatever point you're meandering towards?

@ Pieguy: that's pretty sweet...but I still want to lynch Fitz. That information is probably more powerful if we don't use it to scumhunt. We scumhunt off the Neil wagon and the scum are forced to make our job easier to matter what--either they kill off the wagon and reveal themselves, or they help us scumhunt off it.

[Desperado]

I think we should mass claim now actually

[Desperado]

2: {Majiffy, NS, hiplop, Gaiden, Desperado}

1: {Brian, pieguy, bork, Fitz, Kalimar, Who}

Me, Brian, pie, Majiffy, and Kalimar are all Town.

2: {

NS, hiplop

, Gaiden}

1: {Bork,

Fitz

, Who}

I say the Neil wagoners start the mass claim, followed by Bork and Who. We can break this game right now.

[Desperado]

Where did I do that?

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: hiplop

Might as well cut the fat and just make hiplop claim first.

[Desperado]

How exactly do you plan to break the game here? I've seen zero confirmable roles so far (pie's role is only confirmable really really late in the game, but yeah, that role is probtown and his D2 play supports it). I'm finding it really hard to support a massclaim here and I wonder why you want to do it right now.

zzzzz

FakeGod setup. We're massclaiming, right now.

[Desperado]

Bork wake the fuck up and get on obvscum wagon.

He might be scum dude

His resistance to massclaiming after towning me d1 for my softclaim is super weird

[Desperado]

Was Frozen a FakeGod setup?

[Desperado]

And by FakeGod setup, I mean VisCon.

[Desperado]

Like you're seriously trying to paint my skepticism about massclaim being protown as scummy?

Yes. Go read Minis 1489 and 1523, familiarize yourself with this series of games, and come back here and just fucking listen to me.

PEdit: I can confirm myself as town on the Neil wagon and someone as town off the wagon. We're massclaiming right now and solving this game, today.

[Desperado]

And I will claim when I'm told to (but seriously, putting me in the same tier as Who is borderline insulting)

You aren't in the same tier, you're just both off the wagon.

And I apologize, I assumed you were familiar with the series.

[Desperado]

If anything you should be MORE worried about people who are willing to write you off as town without you explaining ANYTHING about your role (which AFAIK you didn't do until this page)

Don't confuse this with rolefishing either, because it's not (and this would be a bigger deal if you didn't want to massclaim anyway). I'm trying to make a judgment about whether or not your abilities make you more likely to be town and I can't do that until that claim comes.

When you backed off D1 I thought you knew who I was because you were familiar with these games. Clearly I was wrong.

And I really don't think you're scum, obviously. The scum off the wagon is Fitz.

[Desperado]

nt

[Desperado]

OK, well this is a VisCon game. And it is susceptible to being broken that way.

[Desperado]

Prodded havingfitz.

I'm voting my preferred option on the D1 wagon. notscience would be my second choice.

are you fucking blind or something

[Desperado]

Like you're seriously trying to paint my skepticism about massclaim being protown as scummy?

Yes. Go read Minis 1489 and 1523, familiarize yourself with this series of games, and come back here and just fucking listen to me.

PEdit:

I can confirm myself as town on the Neil wagon and someone as town off the wagon.

We're massclaiming right now and solving this game, today.

You are free to bus hiplop whenever

[Desperado]

Brian Skies -
Gaiden -
pieguy - Witch of Perception, 1-Shot Sensor
Majiffy -
notscience -
hiplop - VT
bork -
havingfitz - VT
Desperado -
Kalimar -
Who -

notscience, Gaiden, and Who are all next to claim at their convenience.

[Desperado]

I could ask you the same question.

Do I need to fucking quote myself again? I can confirm myself as town. Can you?

[Desperado]

I saw your reason. Bravo. Aside from you...no one else has provided a reason for voting hiplip over any of the others on the D1 mislynch.

hiplop's neil konowa/neil vote was just as bad, if not worse, than NS'

[Desperado]

[Desperado]

I'm not claiming before 75% of the game.

[Desperado]

If the other person i can clear was hiplop i wouldn't be voting him

[Desperado]

I can't die tonight.

[Desperado]

What does 583 mean?

[Desperado]

I already said im not elaborating if aren't finishing the massclaim

[Desperado]

Pdodge

[Desperado]

Also pie maybe post something besides a prod dodge EVER?

His behavior yesterday (and Who getting NKed over him) are giving me the heebies.

I'm actually glad the vig shot fitz over Gaiden--I know I wasn't gonna stop tunneling him.

Waiting for massclaim to finish before getting into anything more in depth.

[Desperado]

This game and playerlist fucking sucks and I hope it never happens again.

o rly

Why are you so resistant to claiming?

[Desperado]

Yeah it's a really obviously shit idea to massclaim in a potential MYLO situation in a FakeGod game.

[Desperado]

And now we're twiddling our thumbs like jackasses and massclaiming? Are you fucking kidding me?

PS you pushed both mislynches too. And haven't done jack or shit to reenergize the game.

It's you and NS, isn't it?

[Desperado]

Tell me more about how I'm scummy for that you fucking twit.

Where was I calling you scummy?

I was calling you out for complaining that this game sucks when you haven't made any effort to make it not suck.

Have you used your role yet? What is your flavor?

Like seriously, this isn't hard.

[Desperado]

Actually fuck you, I don't like your approach at all.

VOTE: Desperado

All you've done all game is try to convince people you can break the game by having everyone massclaim. That is the sum total of

things you have done.

That's because I'm town and I

can

break the game by claiming you fucking

moron

scumbag.

[Desperado]

I'm Lizen Hastiel, Medic. I can self-protect but can't protect the same person on consecutive nights. It's the exact same role that FakeGod used in the last two VisCon games.

I share a QT with Aetis. Aetis is a flavor cop this time around and he was off the Neil wagon D1. We're both town.

[Desperado]

LOL

Unvote
Vote: Majiffy

[Desperado]

[Desperado]

Paraphrase your flavor.

[Desperado]

Unvote

Dumb as bricks? You fucking CC'ed me role ya idjit.

[Desperado]

Vote: notscience

[Desperado]

Lann and Lizen aren't really similar at all but whatever

Who is scum off the wagon? I'm between Kalimar and Who and Kalimar's NS vote makes me think they aren't partners.

[Desperado]

Who the fuck is Aetis? At first I thought you meant Aegis but he's not in this game.

Did you look at the links to the two previous games? Aetis is FakeGod's designated flavor for his investigative role. In Wingate he was a modified weak cop, in Desert Kingdom he was a parity cop, and this time he's a flavor cop.

[Desperado]

The only way one of us is scum is if lizen or aetis was given to us as a fake claim. Considering he didnt even give us a fake claim at all in Wingate and the fakeclaims in kingdom were periphery cjaracters, I'm gonna go with no.

[Desperado]

are you absolutely sure about this

Yup. Brian confessed his role and flavor to me unprompted in pre-game and it matches my own. Add in the two roles' history in the series and I'm willing to bet the game on him being town.

[Desperado]

I just explained this.

[Desperado]

It states that Aetis and I are traveling together. The same way it has stated that in the last two VisCon games. As in, if I quoted the role PMs that FakeGod released from the previous two games I would be concerned about getting modkilled.

So, once again: unless you think this is the game that FakeGod tells Lizen that she is traveling with Aetis but actually gives Aetis to the scum as a fakeclaim, Brian is town.

[Desperado]

There may or may not be fakeclaims involved. I admit that I am entirely uninvested with the flavor in this game because it really shouldn't matter. Like this is even weaker than role/balance spec. It's nothing but flavor spec, and it's really some of the weakest flavor spec I've ever seen.

But it DOES matter. I'm the same fucking role that was in the last two iterations of this game. Aetis is always the town investigative role. This is NOT ambiguous at all and calling it weak is just you being ignorant, straight up.

[Desperado]

Did town try to break the second game with flavor?

Yeah, and then DGB and I did everything we could to induce paranoia about their conclusions. Elyse (Lizen) ended up getting lynched in 3p.

[Desperado]

So you think because town tried to break the game in the second incarnation, the mod wouldn't be privy to breaking strategies regarding the two characters that have been consistently town?

Lizen and Aetis didn't share a QT last game, it was the Wingates who were trying to break it.

We're town. Can we lynch notscience now?

[Desperado]

And if it is indeed the case that Lizen is not in the game, it would also make sense for scum to push the massclaim agenda to not only clear themselves, but also find all the power-roles in the game.

Except I was only calling for a mass claim after pieguy claimed, which I couldn't possibly have planned for. The only way this makes sense is if Brian and I are scum together and we planned on claiming pseudo-masons from the beginning, which begs the question--why wouldn't we just claim masons?

Because we're not scum.

[Desperado]

Pie's claim? What are we taking to be true?

Also all-town wagons on D1 can happen. And especially when WE NEVER EVEN FUCKING LEFT RVS.

You're trying to apply an objective position to a subjective situation and then asking why it's not lining up. Stop.

are you fucking serious right now

[Desperado]

Please clarify what those first two lines mean, Majiffy.

[Desperado]

Because it looks a whole lot like you aren't aware that Pie claimed sensor and that two scum were on the Neil wagon.

But that can't possibly be it, so help me out.

[Desperado]

Yes.

[Desperado]

No, he was off.

You, me, Gaiden, and NS are the only ones left.

[Desperado]

I really don't think we need your vote to lynch him so QED

[Desperado]

I'm here. Waiting to lynch NS.

[Desperado]

desp, who did you protect?

I've protected Brian and myself. You'll find out the order when FakeGod posts the mod notes.

[Desperado]

fucking seriously

[Desperado]

Vote: Gaiden

[Desperado]

Its you or Majiffy and i think jiffy is town

[Desperado]

I don't give a fuck what you think Bork. I'm town and I'm the same fucking role that Lizen has been in the last two iterations of this story. I also don't believe FG would give the scum Aetis as a fakeclaim based on my experience as scum in the two previous iterations of this story.

I have been clear about this from the beginning.

Even if you're getting weird about pieguy, if he's scum then he was likely telling the truth about there being two scum on the neil wagon. So regardless of his alignment, me/Majiffy/Gaiden contains 1 scum. So how about you spend more time deciding who you want to lynch between the three of us and less time pointlessly ranting about how everyone could be scum.

[Desperado]

Because we've discussed his targets every night?

[Desperado]

Brians first n1 suggestions were GIF/Who/Jiffy/Kalimar; then a couple days later he says he's between Notscience and Who, leaning Notscience because he flowcharted the Neil wagon so hard. I agreed with NS and suggested he use a code to telegraph his result; if NS was a witch, he would ask NS a question in his first post.

n2 Brian lead off with Who and I agreed. Based on POE at the time we had the scum off the wagon inside {Who, Bait} and I remembered Who softclaiming a warning against visiting him (I thought he was softing Ascetic). We felt it was worth testing.

Last night we both got weird on pieguy.

[Desperado]

[Desperado]

Yeah. We could have lynched Pie d3.

[Desperado]

I mean geez man. This was like N3. Like how?

i fell down a rabbit hole n1 and never recovered

i'm not proud of it.

[Desperado]

I agree that was bit too much on my part.

Forgive me, Desp.

i still could have figured it out. brian played it masterfully (and the way he claimed n1 was fucking town as balls, i don't care what anyone says)