Mini 1568: Another Awesome Alliteration Adventure (over)

[The Betting Pool]

Vote: The Betting Pool

.

Ugh hydras etc.

VOTE: dumbmanganger

We're going to be fast friends! I can tell....

[The Betting Pool]

Yeah, haven't read this in depth, but my eyebrows go up at the prospect of thinking multiple players aren't going to be lynched today based on early day stuff. Actually, what gets me is that it strikes me as a conscious choice to set aside certain players as static reads, the better to ignore them and come out with new! and exciting! opinions on them Day Two.

People have asked why scum would do that. I'd ask why town would do that. This isn't a large game with two dozen people to keep track of or anything.

--PA

[The Betting Pool]

I'd ask why town would do that.

You like lynching players you have a townread on as town? Good to know.

No, I'm saying that town preparing not to consider multiple people as scum Day One lacks a lot of paranoia I'd expect from town.

--PA

[The Betting Pool]

Will catch up tonight; sorry to be absent.

From what I can tell this feels like aggressive town-TSO and I like Dunhamganger's style of confrontation for early game stuff. At first glance I'm ambivalent on Elyse in a way that I'm not sure I should be if she's town.

--PA

[The Betting Pool]

VOTE: Cho

Frankly there is nothing going for this girl. Her absence while she waited for the pressure to leave didn't work, and she admits that is what she was trying to do. How is that town in anyway? Town know that sometimes they will die and they should accept that and give as much info before their death by arguing their case so when they get mislynched it can be analyzed later by surviving town.

Cho are you sure you're a veteran of this site? There are mean people here who's play style is basically just to be a jerk. So your point's 2b and 2bi shouldn't be said, and I think you just posted that to try and explain some of your scummy activity away.

Why are you backing off on the unlynchable thing? I would of liked you more for town if you stuck to it... Don't try to appease us by backing off it please.

Oh come on! You've been skimming the thread for instances of your name? Are you just compulsively admitting to your own scum behavior? Are you a jester or something?

Why are you asking for us to ask you questions when you think you are going to be mislynched today? Scum fear the hunt of a town person about to be mislynched because after the flip all the information they gather is confirmed to be from a town source. How about you start asking some questions instead? There wasn't one "?" in that whole post and that is why you are scum.

-Lucky

[The Betting Pool]

@B_E Your face is dumb

[The Betting Pool]

That's twice you've popped back up as soon as someone says your name.

Assuming this was addressed to me, and not T S O, I don't think this applies to me. Probably because being the largest wagon at the moment, my name is coming up all the time anyway. It's gotten to a point where just looking for posts with my name in them when I'm in a rush leads me to glancing at most of the posts anyway.

omg... you have to read posts in the game? how dare we!?

[The Betting Pool]

I'm town pinky promise

(DISCLAIMER: THE CORRECT PLAY IS PROBABLY TO LYNCH ME)

I believe you on both counts actually. I don't think you hammered as scum, you wouldn't want to draw that attention. Still, it's a glaring point that will hurt town later if it's not resolved. I am going to throw caution to the wind though and not make the logical move of voting you. Atleast until PA tell's me we should...

[The Betting Pool]

I'm town pinky promise

(DISCLAIMER: THE CORRECT PLAY IS PROBABLY TO LYNCH ME)

Vote Dunham

Someone tell me why I'm wrong.

I've seen scum pretend not to give a fuck, but in Dunham's case, it seems legitimate. He genuinely doesn't seem to give a shit, which is Town.

how exactly can you tell when someone is legitimately not giving a shit? isn't that contradictory? I don't know, just seems weird.

[The Betting Pool]

Okay, using NK WIFOM to justify a vote on someone is bad. It is the baddest of bads.
By the by, most of our play so far is just dice being dice. And I don't even see how he was that defensive.

Also, I just convinced dice Elyse was scum over night, so now we both have to go back and fix our reads.

-HS

I do like this as a town statement. Which I think egg mentioned already. I find it hard that scum would volunteer this.

[The Betting Pool]

Of course it's WIFOM. It's a post in a mafia game, therefore it is WIFOM. Thank God we got that out of the way.

Will post more once I stop LOLing from this statement. I very much agree Egg, thank you for saying it.

[The Betting Pool]

but would scum really want to risk this statement on the off chance that someone reads it as a town statement? It could come up badly if they are pressed to explain it further.

[The Betting Pool]

Well you know what they say... a smiley is worth a thousand words.

...I may be misquoting that saying.

[The Betting Pool]

Your posts suck shit, B_E.

be nice...

I agree with your vote on Dunham and until P_A forces me to change it, let me join you

VOTE: dunham

Question though, you have B_E and Dunham as scum reads. If one flips town does it hurt your read of the other? In other words, are you reading them as a team or separate?

[The Betting Pool]

Hey BPC, I'm really checked out of this game right now (will read it over tonight if I stay awake/focus long enough) but I'd love to know why you have a town read on us.

Don't agree with the Dunhamganger vote but willing to see what happens. Plus, like I said, not on top of things, so.

[The Betting Pool]

Crap, ^ is --PA

[The Betting Pool]

MTD and BPC seem townish. Leaving Lucky's vote where it is for now, although I lean more Burning_Earth. Feel like something is obviously a good vote elsewhere and I'm just missing it.

We'll get our hydra shit together eventually...

--PA

[The Betting Pool]

So Lucky and I got to chat a bit last night, and I'm good moving our vote in light of that.

VOTE: Burning_Earth

Lucky is the half of the hydra that has experience quickhammering people in non-is-scum-in-LyLo situations, and he agrees with me that Burning_Earth really isn't playing like town who messed up and wants to make amends.

tool, explanation for the vote, Lucky thought Dunhamganger looked like scum. I disagreed, but since I didn't have a strong scum read of my own I was all right leaving our vote there. Now I do, and I even got us synched up on it for now.

Incidentally, I'm currently comfortable calling tool town based on differences between this and Micro 318. Lucky's only willing to go as far as 'not scum' but I'm leaning on him. Other recently completed experience with MTD-wise, I have a weaker sense that this is town-MTD. Not as strong as tool, but I was always better at the contrasting parts than the comparing ones.

--PA

[The Betting Pool]

I'm currently comfortable calling tool town based on differences between this and Micro 318.

Single game meta read? Really?

I felt the same way. I am not comfortable calling him town, but I trust Penguin so I won't pursue the matter with her until I have a better case on him. Besides

she brainwashed me

we agree that B_E is the best wagon for today.

[The Betting Pool]

I could be mistaken but this alliteration game is not the first N ran with this theme, hence the title. Why not look to see if he used the sample role PM as an actual role before. If he hasn't, hammer it like your Thor. If he has, perhaps further discussion is needed and then we hammer anyway.

[The Betting Pool]

I'm mobile posting, or I'd do it myself.

-Lucky btw.

[The Betting Pool]

@tool thanks for being a dick... (get it? Because you used Sherlock Holmes as a gif and he's a detective and dick is slang for detective.... Also you're a jerk.

Why not help me out here and tell me why I didn't need to say that.

[The Betting Pool]

yup, that was pretty much the right move from day start

[The Betting Pool]

Hai guys! Interesting and crazy night. Me and P_A have had very little time to talk to each other so I am just going to represent myself here.

I support the mass claim. Mostly for the reason that it shows us the scum killer who would be pretty much conf town unless scum is foolish enough to try and counter claim it or something. My current scum reads are between tool and riptide. I should have gone through Jargo's ISO after the first night flip, I'll make sure to catch myself up there over the next day or two.

Riptide, why are you opening today with a vote based on gut and inactivity? Don't you think it's time to base it on something a little bit more substantial given that there are multiple flips and 23 pages of posts? Of course you could just be scum looking for the easiest to mislynch, which I'm kind of offended you think is me but oh well.

[The Betting Pool]

Why not? My gut has been one of my best tools in games, so why do you have such a problem with it? That last sentence looks like AtE.

So I have a question TBP. In 23 pages you made 4 vote. 1 RVS, and 3 on the largest wagon. Why have you been so conservative with your vote?

Gut is a meaningless way to vote someone without having to provide any actual case. Now saying we are coasting is an actual reason. Here let me show you why I think gut doesn't provide anything to the conversation.

My current scum reads are between tool and riptide.

why

Gut. Skrew does this satisfy you or should I provide a case?

[The Betting Pool]

catching up!

[The Betting Pool]

TBP - Your reaction to our easily dismissable gut vote are another thing that's bugging me. See that's what I love about gut votes. They can be used in such a manner to where you can catch scum snapping back defensively.

- Dice

pffft. How is it defensive to hate a bullshit reason for a read?

Or would you rather we elaborate on your textbook scum bandwagoning you have been doing all game?

- Dice

Yes we would!... though from skimming forward I think you already did so I'll get to that.

[The Betting Pool]

BPC looks very town to me, because why would scum hammer a mislynch when they had two people who had already declared intent to hammer that mislynch?

Why would scum hammer a wagon so popular that two other people claimed intent? It ends the day and they can't be held responsible because two other people were going to do it anyway.

WHY did you claim?
What the fuck?

Slightly dramatic... I don't see you ever disagreeing with the mass claim, so why you flipping out?

Maybe Lucky had a point but you should have crumbed it or something!

Our protection in the JOAT is dead; now you eat the nightkill.

Mod: theoretically, if a Vig shoots and dies in the same night, does the kill go through?

Risks and benefits, I think he did the right thing. Also, I've never seen a game where a night kill stops a power from resolving. That was a silly question.

[The Betting Pool]

As for Egg's claim, I'm inclined to believe it because claiming vig at this point would be pretty dangerous for scum to do.

a claimed vig with no CC and a scum dead at night? Was there a moment where you thought it was possible he was scum?

[The Betting Pool]

Riptide is attacking TBP.
SK is attacking tool.
TBP is attacking nobody.

And I really should have a read on TBP by now if it's a hydra with penguin_alien.

I would be surprised if you did, for the most part it's been good old Lucky here. I know I can't live up to penguin's level of town play but you should be able to read me too. We've played a few games together and you were even scum with me in my very first scum game. We bussed the hell out of each other early in the game, unfortunately you replaced out, though we still won

[The Betting Pool]

Wow, way behind here. I'll say again that I'll try to get my act in gear. The Beloved Princess interlude just killed my attention span. In the meantime:

Egg, given that you were confident enough in scum-Jargonaut to shoot, what connections do you see that are worth considering?

T S O, you want to figure out that I'm town, ask me some questions; I'll try to post more than every thirteen days here, yeesh.

--PA

[The Betting Pool]

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm being aggressive but your inactivity is inexcusable and it's sapping this game of its energy.

Why apologize? I asked you to ask me questions, and I'm well aware that my performance here is pretty shit, and everyone from my hydra partner to the mod and the players deserve better.

I'm writing up my response to 705 but it likely won't be ready for a few hours given evening plans.

--PA

[The Betting Pool]

Mod, I will be V/LA for a week (through 6/4) due to personal issues. I apologize to you and the players; Lucky2u has my blessing to kick me out of the hydra and go solo should he choose, given the length of the V/LA.

In case this is my last game post, here's what I had done in my response to TSO before the crash:

Do you feel you can legitimately explain being on -every- wagon that has cropped up in the course of the game?

From what I remember, there was Cho, who was scummier than you to us. Then Dumhanganger, who I didn't think was scum but Lucky did, so I told him to go with it and see what happened. Then Burning_Earth, who I felt needed lynching and was likely scum for his behavior following his quickhammer. We have managed to stay off our own wagon thus far...

What are your reads?
Who is your top scumread?

Switching the order here a bit because speculating on how scum are behaving is pointless if I have no clue who they are, although in my freeformness I'll say that I'd bet that we have one scum who's been off both mislynches and generally been sounding wise and even-tempered. I'll expand when I get my reads here:

toolenduso--

BipolarChemist--

SleepyKrew--

T S O--Off the bat I'm guessing town for you. Your behavior here is quite different from the Mini Marvel game where you were hyperaggressive. You apologizing for being aggressive in question-asking to me is particularly odd from scum, given that a) I'm the lead wagon who lots of people want dead, and b) you've seen me be hard-to-lynch scum in FEA. You should have plenty of justification for trying to ram through my mislynch, but you still want to keep the possibility of working with me open I'd guess. (or maybe that's just my arrogance, heh)

Riptide--

Egg--confirmed town as far as I'm concerned; shooting scum aside, no way do we have two anti-town killers in play when there's the (realized) potential of back-to-back nights that could give scum four unanswerable kills.

Do you feel scum have been pushing wagons this game? Or have they been staying back? Sheeping? What have they been doing?

Hopefully covered in the above.

What is your opinion on tool vs SK?

Covered above.

Why are you being so passive today when we're a day away from LyLo?

Because I have no feel for this game. I'm disconnected and my reads have been shit. I've endorsed both town lynches, I didn't have a town read on Elyse, and I generally feel like a liability.

Why are you so inactive?

Cards on the table? Part of it is having lost interest with a Beloved Princess whose NK kicked off the penalty condition, but a larger part is just real life. I'm both very happy and stressed right now, which makes it hard for me to focus on coming in here and scum-hunting. Stress is wrapping up my master's thesis and a family member having minor surgery, happiness is something IRL that's hardly game-relevant, so I'll spare y'all.

Why is Lucky's activity simultaneously poor with yours?

I can't speak for him, but I suspect that me not being super chatty about the game means he's not getting the promised hydra partner, and in our previous hydra game, we did try not to move out of synch too much. So probably my fault.

Of course now inactivity will be from major family crisis; when it rains it pours. And nope, didn't get a chance to figure out tool vs. SK; very sorry.

--PA

[The Betting Pool]

Been at a wedding all weekend, sorry. Be caught up tomorrow.

[The Betting Pool]

WHO IS THE OTHER HALF OF TPB?

The name is Lucky... Lucky2u

[The Betting Pool]

I'm confident. I'm not always this confident in every read, but I'm pretty sure about this one.

saving this post for a future game where you try to push a lynch on your credibility of reads. I almost want to self vote to prove this wrong faster but I owe it to Penguin to not be a derp player.

[The Betting Pool]

I bet you love me, loser.

So now to decide if you're scum bussing partner, or if you're scum finally voting for a lynch you know is going bad, ripturd.

Now, sober me is thinking TPB could be scum, but I'll be goshed if I'm just not sure! I reserve the right to be waffly, you bastards!

WHO IS THE OTHER HALF OF TPB?

It's the second one, so do me a favor and lynch them as an apology for my mislynch

[The Betting Pool]

Concerning the subject that was brought up earlier, and that penguin already answered in her last post, why were we on the most popular wagons so frequently. I will add to her explanation that we have been completely out of sync as a hydra due to lack of communication between us for IRL reasons. If you care to read our last (and only other) hydra game, penguin was the primary poster and we just discussed our actions out of game. I posted every now and then but let's face it, she is ten times the player I am so why take control? In this game, I should have taken control much sooner when I realized she wasn't going to be here %100 and town was going to have to rely on me. The resulting hydra was cruise controlled through the game and now has put town in a bad situation. I am finishing this game with a solo mentality and will take a fresh look at my reads. I shall post them later tonight.

[The Betting Pool]

It sounds strange but omg I love my new avatar!

sorry.

Quick non-sequitur, I love your avatar too...

[The Betting Pool]

Who do you feel is the most iffy read to you at this time? Why is that?
If you had a vig shot, who would you shoot right now?
Why do you feel you are so out of sync this game?
Do you feel confident in the reads you made? (whenever you make them)

I will probably have more post reads, but these are good for now.

I am going to eliminate the bad questions first.

2. If I had a vig shot, I'd probably shoot you. I have no idea why you would ask this questions instead of "Who is your top scum read?" since they are the same thing. Would anyone not shoot their top scum read?

3. I answered this.

Why didn't you read my post?

4. First, if my answer to this was yes, than your first question is moot. Second, you are using two different tenses here. Are you asking me about future reads or past reads? I JUST said that I would be revisiting my reads, but it looks like the one read that isn't changing is that you are scum. I hope Egg shoots you.

Back to your first question.

1. My most iffy read is TSO. I think he is town, but he has outbursts of things that set off my scumdar.

[The Betting Pool]

Re-read:

TBP

-Comes across as semi-active. Not quite stepping into the spotlight and not quite lurking, but kind of just participating enough. That in itself is not scummy, but when you factor in the consistent participation in wagons it does begin to look like scum-motivated behavior.
-#323 also looks scummy. TBP says that B_E's hammer looks like town, but agrees that town should probably lynch B_E. Lynching somebody you think is town is always hard to justify, but the justification TBP provides ("it's a glaring point that will hurt town later if it's not resolved") is especially hard to swallow. Why would town want to lynch somebody they think is town without trying to convince other townies that the hammer didn't come from scum first? This looks like scum pushing town toward a mislynch while trying to avoid being blatant/inventing reasons to do so.
-Play has felt more genuine after being pressured/sitting at L-1 and L-2 for a while, but I don't place that out of the reach of capability for the players in the slot as scum.

It has nothing to do with my lynch status, it's because I've accepted that I am alone now and must treat this game like I am alone.

[The Betting Pool]

It occurs to me that I don't have a vote out.

VOTE: riptide

[The Betting Pool]

The fact that I'm making an effort to engage lucky in this game, and he's treating it as "these questions are useless" does bug me. It's almost as if he doesn't want to be engaged.

You'll have to excuse me if I am being cynical, but as you are my top scum pick, I don't take you seriously at the moment.

[The Betting Pool]

76 - it looks like they all but missed RVS. I'm having a little trouble figuring out what this post was in response to and if it was pro-scum-Cho or not even after reading it in context. However, PA's aware of the Cho wagon and looks cautious about someone (Cho? Elyse?) townbinning a bunch of people early because lolparanoidtown.

I'm trying to think if she's taken a similar stance on other players doing this sort of thing in other games, and I can't think of an example offhand. She plays with people (like me) who townhunt/poe on day 1, so the concept isn't foreign. Could be in how the sentiment was expressed by the other player, maybe.

161 gives out some town reads. In at least one case she's in disagreement with day-1-jargonaut. So, distancing, or town genuinely disagreeing.

164 is Lucky. I'm going to have to brush up on my Lucky meta. I've played 2 games with him where he was town and none where he was scum. In one I was scum and in the other I was town. As scum, I was happy to have an easy mislynch available, though I didn't push it. I replaced into a slot just an hour or two before he was hammered (by my scumbuddy iirc). In the second game I scumread him (it was mutual iirc) but was somewhat cautious because I had him filed under "easy mislynch". I can't remember what I gleaned from metaing him in our last game. :/

Anyway, the case accompanying the vote is pretty detailed. I'll take the word on the street that it's mostly rehash of other's cases for now.

Just a general point that luckys being pretty active (I think - in context I may see that these posts are sparsely scattered) and looks pretty engaged. There's also so humor about their hydra synch troubles. IIRC his posts tend to have a happy-go-lucky fee. I need to do a meta refresh to see if this is more predominant in one alignment over another. Update - reading onward I see they have come under fire for lack of presence later in the game.

ASIDE:

What was driving the discussion about night kill resolution?

707 pinged my hypocrisy button, since he gave Cho guff about asking people to ask her questions. The situations aren't parallel but it's the sort of thing that I feel would register. A scum player might avoid it (or might not notice it? It's a little harder to keep your story straight as scum). A town player might not care how it looks because "fuck yeah I'm town, therefore everything I do is town motivated. deal with it".

716 - this post by PA gives me townfeels.

746 - this posturing could come from either alignment, but it also gives me townfeels. 748 also gives me townfeels.

379 and 387 documents some out-of-synchness as well as PA not caught up. I like that she questioned the basis for someone townreading them, though I think scum-PA would probably push that a tad on principle because lol-scum-don't-do-that.

458 PA is passing out a lot of town reads, however footnoted. Want to call it a town point, especially given she was semi-head-in-the-game and it would have been easy to leave those reads unspoken.

Feeling overall somewhat town about them. Lucky in particular feels more like he's trying to things up so town gets some benefit from his mislynch than like he's actually fighting the lynch.

I want to poke through bandwagons in a bit, but if their wagon has been largely uncountered today that's going to bug me. Based on the toog/SK argument I read through somewhere around page 26/27/28 it would have been pretty easy for scum to fan flames and make an SK wagon into something if TBP is scum. There may have been other singleton votes that could have been fanned into a real wagon as well.

Surprised you remembered me from anything >_>

Slightly embarrassed that I apparently am a gift for you when you are scum because I am an easy mislynch.

[The Betting Pool]

1. My most iffy read is TSO. I think he is town, but he has outbursts of things that set off my scumdar.

Such as what?

Most recently (post site return), your entry back into the game after the site returned and your flop of a joke about counter claiming.

P-edit @ffery: being in this hydra should have eliminated that liability...

[The Betting Pool]

The fact that I'm making an effort to engage lucky in this game, and he's treating it as "these questions are useless" does bug me. It's almost as if he doesn't want to be engaged.

You'll have to excuse me if I am being cynical, but as you are my top scum pick, I don't take you seriously at the moment.

So basically, you're going to start scum tunneling?

what's the difference between scum tunneling and town tunneling?

[The Betting Pool]

Hey, trying to get back into things, will get my reads together and hopefully bounce off Lucky too by late tonight. Liking ffery's take here so far, in terms of how she's catching up, etc.

I'll start with the questions from TSO's post that I didn't have time to address.

--PA

[The Betting Pool]

Why is Riptide your top scum read?

At this point it's a combination of PoE and their attacks on my slot. I believe his motives to be coming from a "scum picking up the easy mislynch fruit while it's ripe" place. I have enough experience being the mislynch after all...

[The Betting Pool]

Hey BPC, can you remind us what your reasons are for scum reading TBP and us? Also, do you believe TBP and us are partners?

Yea seriously BPC, you can only pick one of us