Mini 1536 - Silph Co. Reverse Mafia (Game Over)

[cxinlee]

Psyche, why aren't you voting?

What is the purpose of this question?

[cxinlee]

Unvote
Vote:Bulb

I think it is a natural reaction. You are wrong about everything, thus it is natural to point that out and to vote you for it. My post is not similar to Psyche's, describing wagon producing RVS as 'sleeping' is rubbish, asking whether the mod posted something is not fishing, voting me does not keep you from voting psyche, and my above post is completely a natural reaction.

Why the use of the word "think"? As in, wouldn't you

know

that it was a natural reaction?

[cxinlee]

I'll get into this later when I'm on the comp, and oh yes I like attacking word choice and the way things are said.

So deal with it.

[cxinlee]

Okay finally I got some net time on my comp.

Acknowledging that my point on Empking was weak, since he was trying, as Pasch said, to echo the phrasing used by Bulb.

Kenobi sidelining and not bothering to scumhunt is lame, only bothering to make a post with content after he is attacked.

Zekrom25, can you answer your questions about the vote on pasch? And I’m slow, how was his post a bait?

VOTE: Kenobi
If you’re town, step it up. If you’re scum, I request nothing of you.

[cxinlee]

Cx and IH, where you at?

Huh? If you are referring to activity, why didn't you just wait until I was prodded?

Also, usually I check the computer once per day, just to let everyone know my activity.

Kenobi, regardless of whether you're a newb or not, you don't seem to be even trying to scumhunt at all.

You step it up by actually putting some effort into the game. Also reading through other games should help.

[cxinlee]

Bulb: Actually, null scum. While I didn’t like his actions (Like basically doing nothing), I was aware of this being his first game, and so it was possible he was just being newbish. I voted him mainly to pressurize him to get working.

[cxinlee]

UNVOTE:
My vote has done its job, Kenobi drops to null.

Tier Shift: Why did you think my reason for voting Ken was weak?

Maxous: Firstly, as mentioned before, I am very particular about these sort of things like the way things are said (as in, word choice), misspellings, etc, because I think your thoughts will affect them somehow.

My logic at that point was:

Think: used to describe opinions
Know: used to describe facts

Thus, Empking using the word think seemed to me like it was an opinion (which should have been a fact), and so I suspected him.

[cxinlee]

Dry-fit: No, and I'm not in a rush to get any.

Why do you ask this?

[cxinlee]

I actually did, but the main purpose of my vote was to pressure him to contribute.

I don't always vote who I think is the most scummy (can quote examples on request), you're assumption that "all votes should be place on scum" is simply not true.

[cxinlee]

Dry-fit: If you did read my last game i had zero scumreads for the whole game.
So yes its plausible

I'll go into aj's post later, but for starters its full of false assumptions (basically he described my actions and gave a scum interpretation for each one)


Maxous: i treat it like body language. So in a sense i guess its considered a slip.

[cxinlee]

Aj's post, tiershift next time you should read instead

UNVOTE:
My vote has done its job, Kenobi drops to null.

Tier Shift: Why did you think my reason for voting Ken was weak?

Maxous: Firstly, as mentioned before, I am very particular about these sort of things like the way things are said (as in, word choice), misspellings, etc, because I think your thoughts will affect them somehow.

My logic at that point was:

Think: used to describe opinions
Know: used to describe facts

Thus, Empking using the word think seemed to me like it was an opinion (which should have been a fact), and so I suspected him.

This is the end of a three post extraveganza of voting Kenobi with no reason/justification (

false

) until he became unpopular, and then it was chalked up to "pressuring" Kenobi (

false assumption, read the post, it clearly is a pressure vote

). What's bad about this vote is it comes immediately after the consensus to move on from pasche and pasche had headed up a vote. (

False assumption

)My guess was that after Zek/Ken stumbled so badly, Cxin was ready to take some points and dump a partner. Convenient wording in the post, too. It comes off as coaching (

false assumption

) "If you're town, step it up, if scum don't bother" was essentially the last line of that post. And obviously, the message is 'you aren't doing well enough' (

correct, just not the way you view it

)

The reason in the post for 'sidelining' is not only regurgitated, it also is exactly what Cxin had done for the majority of the game (

Disagree

)whether due to that being the scum tactic of the minute or due to a lack of a computer.

[cxinlee]

pasch, I clearly said it was aj's post, I just fucked up the quote tags

dry fit, if you really want to know, read the damn game. maxous linked my games.

[cxinlee]

I will elaborate later on the comp

Most of my reads are null, slightly town on ken.

Now, im curious, how does not having reads make me scum?

[cxinlee]

Finally got on.
Whiskers: Makes sense, but I still don’t get why people would rather lynch me over scum.

Maxous: You are right, I have a very cautious playstyle (It really wouldn’t make sense for me to hide my reads if I was scum, especially when in the last game I was tunnelled by Kytoxid for not getting scumreads).

Dry-fit: I don’t think you get it. It’s not that I didn’t want to get scumreads, but I couldn’t get scumreads. I was scanning the thread for anything off, but in the end I couldn’t get anything (So I pretty much didn’t get anything done). In the end I had a couple of townreads and through elimination I got 4 players, and stated that I would be fine with any of those lynches.

RBD:

If you are pressuring somepony its to actually get a read most of the time instead of ending up with a null read.

No, I disagree. Not all pressure votes have the intention of getting a read, and many of my pressure votes have ended up with null reads.

that wouldn't have actually accomplished anything.

No. I got him to up his tempo and start contributing to the town, and in the process making him easier to read.

Also please respond to that post with more than "false assumption" instead showing why it is a false assumption

Simply put, the points require the assumption that I am scum, which I know is false. Usually those accusations are just speculations that are just not true.
Elaborated:

then it was chalked up to "pressuring" Kenobi

This would be true if I was scum, but why would you assume that? This is speculation without evidence (I already showed why my vote was a pressure one).

What's bad about this vote is it comes immediately after the consensus to move on from pasche and pasche had headed up a vote.

Drawing connections with something that has nothing to do with my vote. Again speculation.

Convenient wording in the post, too. It comes off as coaching

I was trying to pressurise him to contribute (Unless you consider that as “coaching”). Otherwise, speculation.

[cxinlee]

Been busy lately, will try to catch up.
Aj the epic:

I’ll address all 3 of your points one by one.

The first two quotes...I don’t quite get your point. They seem to be exactly proving my point.

The first quote showed that it was a pressure vote, the second showed it was still a pressure vote. Which shows that it was always a pressure vote.

The second point:

Let’s put it this way:
Assume Action A is performed
Assume Action B is performed just after Action A
Assume Action A would affect Action B if cxinlee is scum (According to you)
Assume Action A would not affect Action B if cxinlee is town

If you do want to draw connections with my posts, you either need
a) The assumption that I am scum.
b) Evidence that Action A did affect Action B.

Last point:
I don’t see the contradiction in the last two quotes; can you elaborate on why they are contradictory?

RBD:
So essentially I could accuse you of doing Action A (Scummy thing), and if you can’t prove it’s wrong, it means that the accusation is correct? Whatever, this is how I do cases (I always give the benefit of the doubt to the one attacked), even if you don’t like it.

Um yeah, http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5306306 this is pretty much how pressure votes work for me (Except I don't vote lurkers anymore).

Also easy to read=/= read, while kenobi at that point was null, he was easier to read (By posting reads, etc.) and now he's town.

[cxinlee]

Aj the epic : I’m confused.

Which post said it wasn’t for pressure?

Mmhm, I’ll self-meta here and say that I have done similar things before and get people to contribute (Not just be active). Hint: I already posted the link.

You think that my post was only to get him active, yet you disagree that my post is for pressure (Activity votes are considered to be pressure votes)?

Voting, making a post, accusing someone are all actions. Do you disagree with this?

I still don't see the contradictions.

Zekrom: Which actions are you referring to specifically?

Maxous: It doesn’t make sense to me, even if it does to you. Can you explain how?

I'm keeping my vote on you until you play at the level I have seen you are capable of in ALL THREE games that I linked.

I already am trying very hard to scumhunt (Of course with a lot of cautiousness exerted), are you implying that I am not putting enough effort into the game?

How do you define capable?

I reread, and I guess it did help a lot with my reads.
Thoughts:

I don’t really get the Zekrom is newbtown thing, since it is possible that Zek is purposely playing dumb to get townread (I did this before on EM). And Zek’s posts seem too newbish to be true, like #259. It just strikes me as odd (I have never seen someone play so newbish like this before), and looks so damn dumb (Not the first to say this) that I don’t believe it to be true. Thus, I’m leaning slightly scum for the time being.


Also I’m leaning town on Kenobi, Dry-fit, and Maxous.
Tiershift and Pasch are null town
(Which leaves Whiskers, AJ the Epic, Psyche, RBD, Empking and Bulbazak at dead null)

VOTE: Zekrom
Answer Maxous' q, and explain your logic behind #259.

[cxinlee]

What was your thought process when you made #259?

[cxinlee]

Ill get on the comp, and make my last words, etc. and self hammer.

I think my lynch will give plenty on info so I wouldn't mind it anymore I guess

[cxinlee]

oh derp

Im not L-1, but w/e

[cxinlee]

Finally I got some damn time on the net.
Dry-fit:
I was feeling suicidal, when you lose all hope in the game and don’t care about it anymore.

Whiskers’ #273 is basically “I don’t know if he’s scum but let’s lynch him anyway”. Please explain this.

I like how Zekrom is soft-pushing my lynch without even voting me (Look at #324).

And my theory that he is scum purposely acting newb (I mean look at his posts, newbs don’t even play like this) to be townread still stands. If there was one thing that I did wrong when I played that game, it was that I overdid it and appeared unrealistically stupid (Even though everyone bought it). He clearly looks like he is overdoing it here.

I'll address other stuff later, I'm off to sleep for now.

[cxinlee]

Can anyone explain why AJ is town (Yes, I’m extremely biased)?


Tiershift:

I don't like cxin's last post. His explanation of feeling suicidal and losing all hope doesn't quite sit right with me,

Can you elaborate on why it didn’t “sit right with me”?

Do you think I had lost all hope when I made that post?

Do you think me “losing all hope” could have driven me to self-hammer?


Whiskers:
So, you have a policy of lynching the useless and anti-town players, regardless of alignment?


My townpool at this point is Empking, Bulbazak (Yes, I think it’s a town fight), Psyche, Maxous, Dry-fit and Kenobi.

[cxinlee]

prod dodge.

Things have been going pretty insane lately.

[cxinlee]

I won't be getting on the comp for a while, so expect quality of my posts to drop.

I'll try to thoroughly read through the last pages

Dry-fit:
I don't feel inclined to vote, especially when I haven't caught up yet and have no scumreads

[cxinlee]

My last scumread was zekrom, and he flipped town.

I'm about 3 pages behind atm

[cxinlee]

pasch, later. Most of my reads at the moment are based on a feeling (Like bulba put it, experience+gut) have and can't be explained in words now.

Empking: I have to disagree about ken scum. Confirmation bias is typical in newbtown, I wouldn't consider it a scumtell

[cxinlee]

My reads haven't changed much since my last post, where I mentioned all my townreads.

[cxinlee]

I'd just like to say that I still don't buy empking-scum

[cxinlee]

Because I'm not comvinced by the arguments so far.

[cxinlee]

cool.

Also, tiershift just went into my town pool

[cxinlee]

Kenobi, you forgot to unvote

[cxinlee]

o

[cxinlee]

I would be fine with a lynch of someone outside my townpool

[cxinlee]

Meh, i feel extremely lazy right now.

No pasch, i dont have to comment on every wagon. And no, unless it is deadline i see no reason to support a wagon i do not like.

I dont get bulbas case on me.

given there is a replacement request we should get an extra day or two.

cxinlee - vote somebody before you're the day 3 lynch.

Fine.

VOTE: Pasch

Scummiest player so far. Very weak case against tier shift (defending the newbs), and agree with bulbas read.

[cxinlee]

Cheerydog can you summarise your reads?

Votes should be placed on people you are happy to see dead at the end of the day, generally this should be scum, no?

Nah. There are two types of votes: votes that have intention to lynch, and those that have no intention of lynching. Pressure votes fall under the second category.

You've already claimed you know your alignment, you believe your flip would give information. Why should that therefore involve your actual lynch?
If the information existing to you is clear to you, then you should be able to tell us what said information is - so let's pretend you actually did go through with your selfhammer, what information have we gained from your flip at the start of day 2?

When someone gets lynched, does he not give out a info?

Eg. I can look at the wagon to see if anyone was hopping on if for weak reasons.

The way in which the post was written looked like it came up without reading the whole of the previous page and just went into panic post mode at seeing someone ask for the claim. The fact it didn't actually contain a claim means something here.

Im confused here.

I was already panicking, being at L-2. I don't understand why someone asking for a claim would drive me insane, either.

And iirc whiskers' post for the claim was the previous page, and yet you are implying I didn't read the previous page. Then you imply I saw the request for a claim. Contradiction?

How did he get there? Should I get a lifering?

He has a town feel. Don't ask why.

[cxinlee]

Pasch's I don't really like.

Whiskers as well.

There wasn't any specific information I was thinking of when made that post. I simply thought that there was a lot of discussion on me, thus there were bound to be clues along there.

Lets say I'm voting someone to fish for a reaction. Is it necessary that I want him lynched? No, this falls under the second category, correct?

Okay, that part is cleared up. Why exactly do you think I would freak out if someone asked me to claim?

[cxinlee]

Reads haven't changed.

actually there was nothing wrong with whiskers vote, I wasn't reading properly :/

But still don't like Paschs.

Cheerydog, maybe because some players are more competent than me?

Anyway, that was not what I considered when I made that post.

[cxinlee]

UNVOTE:

Also, more confident about Tiershift town.

[cxinlee]

Tiershift, the answer is literally 5 posts above you

[cxinlee]

I'm only going to vote tier if I want to prevent a nl.

Why is Pasch's claim real? is it possible for a scum tracker to exist? And why claim so early?

[cxinlee]

I'm only going to vote tier if I want to prevent a nl.

Why is Pasch's claim real? is it possible for a scum tracker to exist? And why claim so early?

Why did you avoid mentioning Emp?

Because Tiershift is the only wagon I can see a lynch happening.

Regarding Empking, he's a townread, and same status on Emp: Not voting him unless it's like deadline and I want someone lynched.

But if I had to choose between Emp and Tier to lynch, I would choose emp.

[cxinlee]

VOTE: empking

[cxinlee]

That's L-1 by the way

[cxinlee]

Okay, ill get into this later.

Also, Kenobi, do you have a reason for me being scum other than not being helpful?

[cxinlee]

Ok catching up.
First,
UNVOTE:
Basically, my vote was based on cheery discrediting the vote as coming from scum, rather than attacking it and proving why max is wrong.

But now i think about it, that really isnt alignment indicative.

Also, im going to ignore whisker's "claim" until he hardclaims a certain role. And i dont think hes going to do it at this stage.

[cxinlee]

bulba, the thing is until he hardclaims, and his role is proven, we don't know if he's an anti-town third-party or not. Heck, he could even be mafia

Pedit: Yes Tier, I just feel so ugh lazy right now, and I can't read any scum. Go read my games, and there, you'll fine similar examples (Some games are the opposite of this, however.)

[cxinlee]

Can you link me to a similar towngame? Do you have a scumgame you can link to?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=32386 this works

I have never played as scum before.

[cxinlee]

cx not-posting is weird.

I don't think its weird.

[cxinlee]

I don't think this game is wild enough to have 2 third party members, so whiskers is probs lying.

[cxinlee]

Current status:

Kenobi is obvtown to me, Dry-fit is unccd mason. And Whiskers I presume is third party.

Lynch pool is tier shift/cheery/bulba/ajtheepic

[cxinlee]

Why would you be dead?

[cxinlee]

sk

[cxinlee]

just realised, if whiskers is sk its auto lose for town, assuming. 3 mafia

[cxinlee]

We have to assume whiskers isn't sk >.>

[cxinlee]

actually regardless of whether whiskers is sk town loses if 3 mafia are alive (.

Whiskers is sk yes

[cxinlee]

My role is apparent to all.

Eh need to think before I vote.

[cxinlee]

Assuming you're watcher, whiskers is sk and aj is mafia

[cxinlee]

In that case bulba, its auto lose for town

[cxinlee]

Oh my gosh

Isn't it auto lose for you then Tier?

I miscalced/misread bulbas post.

Bulba's read seems poor (Very quick to call me out despite the possibility that I missed something)

[cxinlee]

I watched pasch and aj was the only one to go there.

My role is apparent to all.

Eh need to think before I vote.

Why immediately go for Aj? I'd like to see reasons before a vote, especially at this stage in the game.

Have you not read the end of day 2? Or his post?

Um, what?

I'm not understanding any of this: aj was the only one to go

where

? wtf are you talking about? Your openin post today sounds like you tracked aj, btw, and what is that about?

Your role ...is apparent to all? What? I'm not so fucking sure, considering last I recall, you've not talked about you or your role at

all

this game. Why is your role apparent? And if you're willing to divulg
e,

what

is it?

What about Day 2, or his post? What's going on?

Does a power role attempt to self hammer?

[cxinlee]

Do you believe that crap yourself?

My logic is pretty sound and is the only way I can see to ensure a guaranteed scum lynch. What do you find problematic about the logic?

This is worse than the way you were pushing for my lynch yesterday

How so? It looks like I hit the nail right on the head.

Ergo, Cxin is scum, along with whoever of Tier/Aj is scum.

You're forgetting the third scum, is that yourself?

I misread because I thought that if whiskers shot Pasch then tier was scum, and vice versa., so I though it was auto lose.

I haven't figured out who the third scum is yet. I figured lynch the two we know and then use PoE to find the last one.

Ok nvm this let's not go 1v1 with AJ

I'm a serial killer.

Claiming a scum role feels glorious.

I miscalced/misread bulbas post.

Bulba's read seems poor (Very quick to call me out despite the possibility that I missed something)

I don't see how you could misread my post. I was pretty clear in regards to my logic. So do you want to pass by me again why you think following the claimed 3rd party to find scum and avoid a mislynch will lead to an auto town loss?

VOTE: bulba

It should be very obvious that there is at least one scum on my wagon and I'm back to leaning bulba. Or bulba+AJ.

So you're a claimed anti-town (scum) role, which means that we were right about you yesterday when we wagoned you. Why does that automatically mean that scum were pushing you, especially when it shows that we were right in pushing you? Your logic does not compute.

We really need to lynch between Tier/Cxin/Whiskers today in order to hit scum. I really doubt that there are 2 3rd party roles in this game, following Occam's Razor, and as such, one of Tier/Whiskers is mafia. I'm personally leaning Tier, since his interactions with Cxin, and Cxin's defence of Tier look like team interactions. It also doesn't make sense that Tier as SK would 1v1 somebody in Mylo, since that would mean that if he was wrong, he'd automatically lose. However, it's perfect to claim a false guilty as mafia, since a lynch would end in a win. However, since it is Mylo, I feel it is not best to lynch between Tier and Whiskers today. Instead, we should lynch Cxin and hope that the issue sorts itself out during the night via crosskills.

Vote Cxinlee

Whiskers, listen to your heart.

[cxinlee]

I had the idea that if whiskers killed pasch, aj was scum. and vice versa, so I thought you meant it was auto lose

[cxinlee]

If Tiershift flips sk, and there are 3 mafia left, won't we lose?

[cxinlee]

I don't feel like thinking right now.

[cxinlee]

Gosh I'm posting this at 4 , but im prettty grumpy so I guess its better for me when I flail.

Well, she's pretending not to be a SK since she's not voting me nor explicitly counterclaiming me.

I'm playing, what we scummers like to call, "carefully."

So, can I interest you in compromising and lynching Cx? The other players want to lynch

you

, but it's in your best interests not to be lynched. Correct? Same here, but I'm in a safer place, because I have at least Bulbazak and Cheerydog backing me up-- or so it appears.

Or, let me put it this way: if you won't compromise on Cx, we

will

lynch you. You are at L-2 with Bulbazak certain you're scum and Whiskers slightly-hesitant to quicklynch you.

The arguements against your claim are sound: playing recklessly for an SK (a la 1v1'ing, first with Bulba, I think? Then with me), trying to frame Aj the Epic (a player you then

didn't

go after) for a kill you claim to have made,

Actually, I don't know why I'm trying to convince

you

.

Kenobi

, you're "easily manipulated," right? Come join the Cx wagon, it's the safest lynch considering we're in MyLo. Also, if you're looking for something meatier than what Bulbazak has fed us, chew on cx's continued lurking, even harder now than in previous Day phases, trying to lay low while now under fire, not trying to push Tiershift's or even Whiskers' lynch, or to defend himself; only to survive.

Mafia.

I'm the safest lynch huh? Right, considering whiskers is sk /mafia, tier is claimed sk, bulba is apparently mafia, and I'm (possible) town, I'm a safe lynch, probably for your or mafia's wincon. which I guess makes perfect sense. Probably.

So yes Kenobi, join the damn wagon , its the safest lynch.

Ive laid low for the entire game, regardless under fire or not. Im not pushing any lynch until I get my head straight, not defending myself is counterintuitive if you intend to survive

[cxinlee]

actually whiskers pushing 2 players with 5 to hammer implies something.

VOTE: whiskers

Go die in a fire

[cxinlee]

bulba: so you can't see why misreads happen, despite the fact that they happen all the time? Cool, I can't ever see why you would ever be unable to see how I misread it.

Pedit:

Ok, so what are the cases on me?

I explained my read on you already?

Yes

[cxinlee]

actually

UNVOTE:
VOTE: bulba

[cxinlee]

why not lynch bulba ans then let whiskers/tier shoot each other?

[cxinlee]

I'm mad at myself for playing such a shitty game.

I was so naive, I lurked 90% of the game, and when I had doubts about ajtheepic, I kept quiet.

Meh, shoudve been more aggressive at the last day as well.

[cxinlee]

I have no idea what whiskers was trying to do, either.