Mini 1537: ATTACK ON TITAN (Game Over!)

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I am excited as fuck for this game. Hope Tammy and Pieguyn are town as well so we can crush the scumteam into a billion tiny pieces.

I am town. Are you town, Pie?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Kaze, why is the Myko vote good?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Why so quick to townblock me? I could be eeeevillll.

Why are you concerned more about Pie's townblocking of you as opposed to me? Me, the scumfuck who is buddying as soon as the game started being in a townbloc not tripping your radar?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Brian, wanna lynch this guy for fake-claiming miller?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I don't trust early miller claims especially from someone like Bert.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Plum, your thoughts on the miller claim? How genuine is it?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

What was the early miller test, Brian?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Kaze, your reaction seems very different from your reaction to Brian claiming miller in Pitoli's last game. Why?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

So far, I have Bert and Brian as actual townreads. Pie is town enough to work with. I will post thoughts on the others soon.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

flavor doesn't determine alignment, which means that especially given annie's alignment in series was left unresolved annie's alignment in game could be just about anything

however roles should come from flavor and I'd expect smth like miller would

@F-16:

what made you sure on Bert-town? especially considering you said you don't trust early miller claims especially from someone like him. I still don't get the "weak" and there's still a chance annie as a character could be outright mafia based on the statement about flavor. did I miss smth 0.0

My "

I don't trust early miller claims

" was bait for Brian to see what he would do. In another game, Brian claimed miller and got lynched. Scum were both pushing on him. I felt that if Brian was town, he would sympathize with Bert and defend him. His 43 fits that theory although it is matched with a good amount of paranoia as shown in 64.

Bert is a weaker townread based on his claim. I know Bert quite well now and he doesn't strike me as the gambiting scum type. He is very good at faking his town meta and paranoia as scum, and as such wouldn't want to risk being exposed. Also, Pitoli had a miller in her previous game so I wouldn't find it an odd role coming from Pitoli. I still need more interaction with Bert and for him to clarify what "weak" is supposed to mean in order to solidify that read.

Okay, so I read through Pitoli's last game and saw that Brian Skies immediately claimed miller upon entering the game. I thought it would be interesting to analyze the reactions there to here.

Mini 1501: We're on a Boat

1) Grimgroove

YYR

- Doesn't vote the miller but picks up on a different scummy player (Aeronaut) and votes him instead.

2) notscience - Says that miller claims are absolutely null and WIFOM but is convinced enough to vote Brian upon CDB's request.

3) Yates

ChannelDelibird

- CDB asks in post 17 why Brian is acting as if claiming miller will allow him to live for a while. The motivation is a push for a information and potentially a lynch that day. In hindsight this appears to be a town motivation.

4) fferyllt - fferyllt picks up on something that Brian said about dying anyways and then inquires about it. The notable point is that she wants to know why Brian is thinking the way he does and tries to understand his thought process.

5) Albert B. Rampage

SleepyKrew

Aeronaut

- Says nothing about the miller claim but votes Brian.

6) CrashTextDummie - Lynch all D1 miller claims!

7) Garmr - "

Everyone seems to be claiming miller these days maybe it's a new meta rolling in.

" No engagement at all with the claim. There is also a lack of opportunism or jump onto the wagon. Speaks more to the skill of the player as opposed to alignment.

8) LolWagons

Smudger

- Smudger never played in a game with one before.

9) Peabody

Kazekirimaru

- Kaze in post 27 says he is not sure how to feel about the miller claim and says that it could be coming from town or faking scum. There is a lot of caution that is expressed here. Says later that miller claims in general are not null in post 62.

10)

Empire

Maestro

- Maestro says "

lol D1 Millerclaim, u so cute. I'll post later when I care.

" - This post shows comfort in the assumption that a miller claim is nothing of concern while not caring about much else. Empire initially hedges on the miller claim in his first post but in his initial reads list (ISO him), he lists Brian as one of his suspects and takes issue with the presentation of the miller claim.

11) Plum - Plum comes into the thread much after the miller wagon has formed and had been talked about. She takes an interesting stance of "

Three acceptances of he Miller claim as legit in a row. Huh. Personally am of the Llamafluff school of first-post Miller claims, and there are a good few I'd lynch before Brian on scumminess merit.

" in her first post. Then she starts attacking people for believing the miller claim.

12) SpyreX - Says that the miller claim is legit and jumps onto Aero. Says that scum would be opportunistic about it. Since he was the SK, I am not entirely sure if he was scumhunting or just pretending to.

---

Out of the players here, I found Plum's stance the most townish on a gut level. She seems to be very inquisitive and wants to find out more information about the miller and asks Bert questions to figure out whether he is town. As scum in the Boat game, she seemed very evasive about Brian's game and seemed to sweep it under the rug and started attacking people for believing the miller claim without actually being inquisitive and probing for more information so she could figure it out. She also spent a lot more time justifying her stance "Lllamafluff school of thought" etc.

I found Kaze's initial reaction scummy becuase he was a lot more cautious to a previous miller claim. However, his insistence in the Boat game that a miller claim is not null followed by his push on Bert here actually makes a lot more sense as town because he seems to have differing reactions based on each claim. He doesn't believe that it is actually null, and in this game, he seems to believe that it is scummy. Kaze, I would like to know what your reasons are and how you differentiate the miller claims.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@F-16: Here's the only other game I can think of where I had to deal with a claimed miller. I mislynched her in 3p lylo. =(

Thanks, I'll look through it later on.

@ Pasch, explain what you find scummy about me, Pie, or Plum. Also, why Kagami as null? Seems pretty town to me.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Pasch, you haven't explained any of your initial scumreads now jumping onto Kagami. What changed? What you claimed was scummy about Kagami was something she posted much before your initial catch-up posts.

What about Plum did you find scummy?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Pie, I am not convinced that BRO's assumptions about whether you know the anime = scum. He is null for now. I'll go through his other games to see how he opens his attacks as town or scum. That should shed a better light on his affiliation. Can you link the games you have played with BRO? Pasch is leaning scum.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Muffin, explain Plum-scum.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

What about post 92 didn't you like, Mykonian?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Pie, I am not convinced that BRO's assumptions about whether you know the anime = scum. He is null for now. I'll go through his other games to see how he opens his attacks as town or scum. That should shed a better light on his affiliation. Can you link the games you have played with BRO? Pasch is leaning scum.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=32587
that's the only one. he was scum I was town

also it's not just the fact he made that assumption. it's how his "engagement" with me was nothing but a bunch of loaded questions that made said assumptions. it's bad enough he made said assumption (especially after I told him I didn't know flavor) but then he used it to come up with a bunch of fake reasons to throw blame at me and get me off him. there's also how he blatantly ignored the fact that another assumption he was making was incorrect. IMO it makes way more sense in the context of my above post. unless that's what you meant

Thanks. I'll re-read through the BRO parts again.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@f16,

Why shouldn't we lynch you today, Paschendale?

this was where i started thinking plum scum

although none of plum's earlier posts were all that great, this is just the type of question i hate the most. i've never seen a town player ask this sort of question, and i can recall examples of scum players using it (like, most recently, pa in FEA)

also didn't like #180. i'm pretty sure you've read imperishable night, or at least skimmed the important parts. how do you not see similarities to my play re varsoon/pie there?

I don't find it similar. I found you opportunistic in Imperishable night for taking Varsoon's side despite Pie having better arguments. I assume you did it because Varsoon was easier to buddy to and less likely to get paranoid. Plum takes Kagami's side but I actually agree that Pasch's arguments are worse than Kagami's so there is no opportunism there - she does what I'd naturally expect townies to do. I also think Kagami is likely to be far more level-headed than Varsoon.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I mean, if I took the time I could write a nice wall with tells and analysis and far fetched theories that I believe in and you invariably are skeptic about (general "you"). It's a post that's out of place in the game and in f-16's way of playing. It doesn't fit at all, it stands out, it stands out in a way that's scummy.

I think it'd be productive to at least hear if someone in this town is on some similar wavelength, or if I really have to wall it up again and be disappointed by your responses again

Doesn't look like you have a clue how I play. My wiki is updated. Start there.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

zMuffinman, what are your thoughts about Pasch?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

ActionDan, explain your reads. You pretty much just quoted a whole bunch of my posts with no explanation.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

First answer this, have you read all of my posts or did you miss/skim through any of them?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

My "I don't trust early miller claims" was bait for Brian to see what he would do. In another game, Brian claimed miller and got lynched. Scum were both pushing on him. I felt that if Brian was town, he would sympathize with Bert and defend him. His 43 fits that theory although it is matched with a good amount of paranoia as shown in 64.

How did you miss this which explains the sequence of 27, 28, and 29? I am aware that Brian got mislynched as miller and knew full well that he wasn't going to fall for "wanna lynch this guy for fake-claiming." Knowing this, why are you acting as if I am being opportunistic?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Do you have an actual townread on Dan or just because he voted for me? You are going down the conf-bias tunnel of thinking you know someone's meta like you did with Thor in the other game we played together. As far as Dan's play so far is concerned, I don't find him town at all.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Kagami, I

didn't

actually try to push a lynch on the miller as I explained in post 234.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Kagami, why do you read ActionDan as town besides the similar reads?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I think scum are perfectly capable of giving reads that are generally accepted to the town. Like Bert being town for instance. There are several things that I found scummy with his entrance.

Well.

VOTE: F-16

Brian/Kaze/Kagami/Bert all town

Plum/Pie/Myko lean town

Muffin has a better chance than raw probability to be town I haven't really read everything he's posted though.

who's left? Bro = meh, don't like because Pie vote was ugly. pardon me no offense but Pasche is not my go to definition of a 'decent-inclined-to-be-logical' player and the 2nd post he posted shows that clearly; he could go either way but reading his posts would make your mind melt so I stopped reading him completely. F-16 is scum because he is and and tammy is in the game.

Dismissal of Pasch as "illogical" without commenting on his affiliation seems off. Pasch was the hot topic of discussion and there was plenty in his posts to analyze one way or another.

No explanation of reads at all. In general, this tends to be a playstyle tell as opposed to an alignment tell. To find out which it was, I asked him to elaborate on his reads to see if he has concrete reasons behind those reads. He refuses to respond.

He also misinterprets my posts as calling for Bert's lynch much as you did. I can see it if he didn't actually read through all of my posts so I asked if he did. He confirms that he did. When I clarify the situation and point him in the right direction, he has no response other than:

no that's not it F-16.

I don't see any of these posts as town motivated. It seems more like he decided to jump onto Mykonian's suspicion which seems very opportunistic.

I found Kaze's response to Mykonian a lot more townish that ActionDan's.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

VOTE: ActionDan

It is clear you don't actually have a reason for voting me.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

But Kaze is town, though.

Wagon Dan with me.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Dan, I don't know if you are town or scum, but if town, stop playing coy. I want to know whether or not you have legitimate reads or just BSing them out of nowhere. Walk me through your thought process. How did you arrive at the conclusions you did? Trolling isn't helping.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Myk, you've never played with scum-me and we only have one completed game together.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

the beauty of alts. Also, read a couple of other games last time for exactly the same reason as dan is voting you right now.

So, eh, no. You can keep trying, but you would really prefer to make a different post then 92 if you had been town.

Dan is voting me because he is probably scum.

I've never made a post like 92 before as town or scum. This was unique. Calling it scummy by itself could at least be forgiven for a misguided townie. If you calling it scummy on a meta-level, show me similar posts I've made as scum.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

BRO, thoughts on Mykonian and Dan?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I sure do love spam posting.

Anyway, I feel pretty damn uncomfortable voting with F-16 right now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: F-16

Why?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I've been trying pretty hard to figure out Dan's affiliation. In 252, I attempt to prod him into the game and start providing reasoning for his reads. I clarified his misrep to see if he understands where he went wrong. I have been trying to pressure him into towntelling if he is town.

In my interactions with Myk, I debunked his claim of meta. I pointed out that he has never played with me as scum before. I also asked him to show an example of me making a post like 92 as scum.

Compare Myk's and Dan's responses:
Dan continues to troll and provide no reasoning for his reads despite being probed about it.
He says "don't be cajoled by scum" which doesn't do anything to advance the gamestate.
Myk continues to provide no reasoning despite his being debunked.

I mean, compare and contrast, how is my interaction with them something you don't like?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Falcon - What's your read on Pie?

I think he is town. I initially had some gut town-vibes but the push on BROseidon was what solidified the read for me. I am not worried about Pie saying that
BRO is discrediting him because he did it with Varsoon in a very similar way in Imperishable Night and fits in with the range of behaviors I'd expect from town-Pie.

Spoiler: Pie as town

Furthermore, you're discrediting me at every turn, which is a typical disarming method used by scum. You're not interested in asking me questions or sussing me for any sort of information behind my vote, you're just condemning my slot and trying to suffocate me.

If anything pisses me off in this game, it's when players devalue what other players have to say.

okay here's a question
what makes you think I'm just trying to devalue what you say, instead of actually believing what you said is scummy? as it is, you've given no reason beyond me being scum, making this logic circular.

No, you shitlord, it's me questioning why you don't make the same arguments against every player, but cherrypick your scumhunting.

because I have a townread on BROs, while I had no such townread on you.

If anything, it's critical of you more than BRO, because it shows a hiccup in coherency and logic in your play.

so you saw your redirection wasn't going to work, and thus realized your only option was to try to defeat me directly?

FURTHERMORE, nice try to appeal to OTHER PLAYERS instead of immediately answer my question.
It's not rhetorical, so get to it.

excuse me for working together with other people...

zmon very well might be scum, but I think you're scared of the idea of Town-varsoon crushing you. I know that I'm an easy mislynch early, and you could probably pull it off, but you've tripped over yourself trying to do so, and I've exposed you.

1. I have no completed games with you. how would I have any way of knowing you're an easy mislynch?
2. this implies my vote on you was intended towards a lynch. now let me requote this

^ opportunistic as fuck

vote: Varsoon

Or a proper evaluation of play and agreement with the currently building wagon in a way that simultaneously puts pressure on the slot but doesn't put it in danger of being a lynch?

you claim that your vote on him didn't put the slot in danger of being lynched. so why do you assume my vote puts you in danger of being lynched?

Actually, yeah, fuck it, I've just amassed a WAY better case against you, pieguy. zmon very well might be scum, but I think you're scared of the idea of Town-varsoon crushing you. I know that I'm an easy mislynch early, and you could probably pull it off, but you've tripped over yourself trying to do so, and I've exposed you.

VOTE: Pieguyn

Good luck trying to get me to budge. I've got my hooks in you, and you've already dodged my questions once. Answer them now, or just give up, scum.

so now you're just going to discredit everything I've done? after accusing me of discrediting what you've done? no thx

You also have a REALLY awkward preoccupation with communicating directly to Morph and BRO. I picked up on this when BRO voted me immediately after you, thinking it was a little awkward that you'd have so much back and forth with him in game and then he'd support your vote and try to build on your case for you, but what really tipped me off to this was when I asked you a question and your immediate post following that was "is that abrasive enough for you morph?"

Why are you so preoccupied with those two players, specifically?

again, excuse me for working together with other people

let me know if I missed anything

BRO, I am not sure about yet. Need to re-read the meta to see if I agree with Pie. What are your thoughts on BRO?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

BRO, I am not sure about yet. Need to re-read the meta to see if I agree with Pie. What are your thoughts on BRO?

Not sure yet. My only completed experience with him is always me as scum when he's town. But, the first couple of games had him replacing out and in Anything Goes he was in a hydra with Angry Pigeon and I'm not sure how much was Bro to know what to expect. But I did really like his response to Pie that he sucked reading Bro in Post 154. i realize that's kinda stupid, but it's one of my mafia weaknesses.

I did like that as well as his insistence that he makes early pressure moves regardless of his alignment which I think came from a town mindset. I didn't like that he wasn't really addressing the core of Pie's arguments which was about the

quality

of the early pressure move rather than the move itself. It felt like he was side-stepping it either intentionally or accidentally so I am not completely positive that he is town.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

BRO, are you going to explain your townread on Dan or be like Dan himself?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

BRO, are you going to explain your townread on Dan or be like Dan himself?

Gut-driven, primarily. I like where he's started his trajectory for the game.

It's a weak read. Hence the qualifiers.

I don't like where he started his trajectory for the game or his lack of reasoning but I'll go through his recent games to see if he has similar tendencies.

Why are you pushing me so hard on this read?

Because I disagree with you.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

F-16 what's your read on Pie?

Town.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Tammy, what is your read on Mykonian?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

My read on Myk is that he's annoying. And I can't tell if I'm suspicious of him because I think he's scum or because I'm just annoyed with his play style. I think that post like:

also, kaze, now you are here. You can see why 92 is scummy, right? I only have to explain to f-16 why he got caught, I hope. He's obviously unaware or he wouldn't have made 92.

Are effing horrible. If he were actually interested in helping town, he wouldn't be all manipulative and encouraging someone to see something. He'd explain it. But he keeps acting superior about the whole thing. Nothing about his play is town, but I think Myk has an anti-town playstyle, so he could just be really bad town.

I initially thought he was town because some of smugness about thinking he knows my meta felt the same way as his attack on Thor in this game:

Spoiler: Micro 65

Subject: Micro 65: No Town Lynched (Game Over)

all the more if you aren't looking for a random vote.

You missed something btw.

Unvote: Nachomamma8
Vote: Red Coyote

Speed wagon ho!

@Myrk - we do not need to confirm.
Also, if you're town - replace out,

I don't need someone who is going to be not interested in the game on my team.

someone is very eager to suggest he's town in a roundabout way.

vote thor

I don't see this vote changing any time soon. It fits what I think to know about thor too well.

Subject: Micro 65: No Town Lynched (Game Over)

hardly.

Depends how you think Thor plays as scum. Gregory hasn't played with him, I think, but it should be easy to relate to. Thor is a guy you either hate or love on MS. Some people believe he's a great player, great as town, great as scum. Others believe he's a little too full of himself. I'm not taking a stance there. Anyway, he's confident, generally goes into a game thinking he's going to win. He's used to leading towns, as either allignment, and is generally hard to lynch exactly because of that.

Thor made that sentence on purpose, he knows I don't replace out, we've played with each other before. The only goal it has is to insert that little piece of text that he's town. Now, I know confident scum. And I know I pulled stuff like that often. Each time town didn't notice it was a little victory, because it actually works. This is Thor trying to get in his favorite position.

The difference though is that he started explaining it right away and I am not sure if this is alignment indicative for him.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Mostly a gut thing. Reading the posts around that point I kept thinking "ehhhh, I'm voting for F-16, right?" and I wasn't. So, I rectified that.

Your response quoted above is odd. "Why do you not like me? Look at all this stuff I did! Look at what they did!!!" I don't like the tone.

Except you don't really address anything I said in my post. How do you come to a conclusion that either Myk or Dan are town based off their posts?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

get off your wagons and vote BRO with me already

What are your thoughts about Dan?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I don't think the word "gut" is registering to you.

I read that you said "gut" the first time but it seems like an easy excuse to not engage with my arguments.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I think you are being evasive. I laid out all the reasons why both Mykonian and ActionDan were playing anti-town and scummy and they responded with "don't let scum cajole you" or were busted as having no case. Your response is to ignore all that and say "gut" which seems like a convenient scum excuse to throw your vote wherever you want without having to account for it.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Muffin, what do you think of Kaze? I find his evasiveness scummy.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Dan, you misinterpreted the intention of the question. I was trying to get us out of RVS by probing for answers and feeling out Brian hopefully sorting him. A much better opportunity came along (a miller claim), so I used that instead. I don't care about Brian's answer now - the endgoal isn't to learn why Brian is concerned about Pie's townblocking of him, it is to get a read on Brian. Once I achieved that, the initial question becomes irrelevant.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

F-16 is scum because after this post he never touched this again. He was clearly needling Brian Skies before this and this particular post does not give a sufficient answer to F-16's question.

The question, paraphrased, that F-16 asks Brian is, why is Brian concerned about Pie putting Brian in Pie's town block when Pie also has F-16 (who is scummy to Brian) in his town block. Brian's answer misinterprets the question and assumes Brian was put into F-16's town block also. If F-16 was particularly concerned about this line of inquiry, he would have continued it. It drops completely after post #26.

F-16 has had ample opportunity to look over this since I quoted it again but still didn't pick up on it. That's telling. He thinks it's history, done and over with, and can't remember why it was important to him... which means it never was.

So you're saying townies don't lose their train of thought?

Um...

I lose my train of thought a lot more as town than scum; I normally have an agenda as scum, which makes it easier for me to track what I'm pushing and I. I'm working on aligning my town game more to that, since it's annoying to read in my ISO that I've noted something, but not remember why I've noted it :/

I didn't lose my train of thought. I felt that my line of enquiry was no longer relevant.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I don't believe that. there's no reason for you to drop the original inquiry and continue with another especially since he didn't answer the first properly.

And what would be the point of continuing to push a dead-end?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

because it wasn't dead. he answered you incorrectly. correct him.

Why should I care? How does it help me find scum?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

You clearly cared by asking the question in the first place. Somehow you would have thought that your question would help you find scum by asking it. There was no reason for you to call it irrelevant since the question was left standing and it had value to you.

I cared because it would help me feel out Brian and progress the game past RVS. Continuing that conversation would have gotten some good discussion and reactions. Once I found a much better way to do it based on the miller claim, I dropped this. I didn't abandon my efforts to sort Brian, I dropped a line of questioning for another which would move me towards the same goal.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Why did it take you this long to come up with your reasoning?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Your case is predicated on me making an "error." There was no "error" to identify. Your argument is mispremised.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I dropped a line of questioning when I didn't see a reason to continue moving onto another one which I believed would be more productive. That is not an "inconsistency."

Explain the town-motivation in being self-conscious.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

BRO, thoughts on ActionDan based on his recent posts?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Tammy, so far I am thinking Plum, Kagami, Bert, and Pie are town. What do you think of Brian Skies so far?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ The Purple Rose,

The timing of my effort is non-alignment indicative for me. Effort by itself is actually more a feature of my towngames. What you are picking up on are playstyle tells.

You are also off about characterizing my early towngame as timid. I generally tend to be more restrained as scum and moderately aggressive as town.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

someone put f16 at l-1 and i'll quickhammer. go

Wtf? Explain this.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Otherwise, there are so many different things going on. I think F-16 is floudering all over the place. I'm not sure what's going on in his mind, but he's puking all over the page.

What the hell do you mean "puking all over the page?" Nothing that you have said in this game makes any sense to me. I start to read your posts and am lost as to what your thought processes are and what you are even saying.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Myko - I didn't say I've seen falcon do that before, I said it's the type of analysis I'd expect from falcon. He's very meta heavy and comparative in his analysis.


Falcon - what is your read on pascendale?

Likely scum.

VOTE: Paschendale

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Bolded one line, cause I want to answer to it. He thinks it's interesting to analyse the reactions of a previous game to a miller claim. Okay... The link is three players and that the mod is the same.

Now, this is page four. What sensible person would put a rather big amount of effort into doing analysis on a different game that early, with that little to gain? Basically, his analysis does very little only put a little bit of doubt on kaze, and F-16 is very passive with the last paragraph as well. It's big effort, low gain, but damn it looks nice.

I generally put in a LOT of effort to get reads in a game. It isn't uncommon for me to read through several games just to get a read on a single player. In one game, I read or skimmed 24 other games to develop reads on the players in that game. I was pretty accurate as well narrowing scum down to 2/3 players and given more time, I would have pegged the scumteam. So, there is a lot to gain from researching Pitoli's last game. I originally thought there was even more to gain because I believed that town and scum would react in alignment indicative ways and thought I could establish patterns hence the analysis of every player in the game as opposed to just the ones that were playing. I realized as I finished the analysis that there were no set patterns and the only information I could gain was an insight into how the players in the game reacted to a miller claim and compare and contrast with how they did here. I developed several reads based off of it. They were early reads but still very good ones. It was high effort, high gain.

You argue it came too soon. I disagree. I think developing early reads propels the game forward and helps better refinement of those reads. I generally try hard to put an end to RVS even if my reasons are a stretch. Mini 1472 (Swagtown) is a good example of that. In this case, I preferred not to wait to post my analysis.

If a town would have had to make a post in the same spot, he'd comment on this game. He wouldn't put a huge effort post that soon into the game because his information still was limited, and in 20 pages he might gain more from a comparison between playstyles in both games, not after 4 pages here. He wouldn't basically put more time in that game then the one he's in after 4 pages. That's why that post stands out so much, first regardless of player. It's an effort post that comes way too soon, it's showing off while doing very little. F-16 pushed kaze again just 2 pages ago and he doesn't mention this post anymore, where he's analysing kaze and comes out with a negative result.

That applies to players who don't spend a lot of time doing metadives. I spend an extremely large amount of time comparing and contrasting play with other games. Most of the scum behaviors I push people on are customized scumtells for that player. Posting information about that game helped me develop reads and advance the gamestate. It allows players to comment, and help refine those reads. Everyone who played that game had reacted to the miller claim. I got the information I needed to sort people so there was no reason to wait 20 more pages. I would gain more if I posted meta-analysis of individual players later on in the game and I plan to do that. My post about miller-reactions was just that - how each player reacted to the miller claim. It wasn't a comprehensive analysis of their playstyle. If it was, you would have been right that posting it early would have hindered future reactions.

My read on Kaze changed after further interaction with him. My reads out of my post are not set in stone and are subject to change. This is obvious. I am not going to keep coming back to it every time my reads change.

And I've seen F-16 now a couple of games, and this is not how he starts out. If anything, F-16's early game is characterized by timidity, he's always watching the game rather then doing stuff till very late in the day compared to other players. The post doesn't make sense for a general townie, and it doesn't make sense for f-16.

You are blatantly wrong about this characterization of my early game play. I don't have an early game "meta" as town or scum because I switch it up from game to game but I've never played "timidly." I sometimes play very aggressively and accuse a lot of people. Sometimes I focus on finding town. At other times, I address certain players I was looking forward to playing with.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

F-16's early game is characterized by timidity

I would really like you to answer from what game did you come to such a conclusion? In the game we played together, I quickhammered on Day 2 after questioning you for answers. In the game, we played under your alt, I was focussed on finding town so I could POE the scum. All games, there was some amount of aggression but the way in which I started off varied heavily.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

BRO, thoughts on ActionDan based on his recent posts?

I like his trajectory. His recent posts have felt more townish.

What of his trajectory did you like? All I have seen of it is that he votes me and continues arguing with me. There is no shift or change in direction.

How have his recent posts felt more townish?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I like how he's thinking about your posts through the lens of what information you're looking to gain, and developed his position based on that. What he's looking at isn't a bad tell; Mac used something vaguely similar against mastin to figure out that he was scum in Anything Goes. His last part is a little reachy, but certainly something that in the early game can easily come from town.

It is a bad tell. Why is dropping lines of questioning scummy? It seemed more like he was pretending to scumhunt rather than actually figuring out my affiliation. His responses when I explained it to him are that a) I made an error, b) I should be self-conscious. Neither of those make any sense.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Scum motivation behind dropping a line of questioning is that it allows one to appear like they're trying to figure things out without having to push anything too hard.

And how is it any different from town dropping a line of questioning because they want to figure things out and take a step back? Your answer seems to be "it looks like town, scum try to look like town, so it is scum."

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Pretty sure both Pieguy and Bro are town because their argument sounds a lot like the argument Pie had with me in Ace Attorney mafia when we were both town.

Pasch completely relenting, stating F-16 is "puking all over the page", and subsequently voting Bro because Muffin is voting him stings pretty hard and I'll happily see him lynched if you guys decide F-16 can't be a thing today(but I hope you go through with it, regardless.)

F-16 probably sees Pasch's weakness and that explains why he's jumping on the chance to vote him in 406. Can I get "Desperate Attempt to Counterwagon" for 500, Alex?

407 is pretty much rubbish, btw. For all its lovely walling, the entire thing is a strawman argument. Myko's stance being his 92 being too early to be effective and basically one big posture-fest(as far as I follow) and F-16's response is something akin to "What's wrong with developing early reads????" No. No. Hush.

Let's get on with the lynch, already.

Respond to my post then. It wasn't a strawman. It addressed all of Myk's arguments. YOU are strawmanning me.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I'm saying that it looks like what town does without being what town does, and without progressing the gamestate.

Stop twisting my words.

What the fuck do you even mean "it looks like what town does without being what town does?" How does backing off of a line of questioning look like what town does if town don't actually do it?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Holy shit, why isn't this obvious to you.

Scum try to imitate town play. Town poke and prod and ask questions to try to figure out who's scum. Scum therefore need to imitate that process, but they want to do it in such a way that it obfuscates who they are. One way to do that is to ask various questions that don't really lead anywhere. It makes scum look engaged with the game, but it doesn't ultimately help town.

Orc was threatening to bus me to hell in my first scum game because I was doing that too much. Thankfully he died first, so I got to carry him, but I digress...

That's not what I am taking issue with. ActionDan claimed that me dropping a line of questioning is scummy. But town also drops questioning as I explained in depth which makes it null. He is painting null things as scummy. Why do you find it town-motivated?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I don't see how you don't get it. If something is null, it can come from both town and scum. Why would it be a reason to push at all? His reading based on my reaction was bullshit as well. Why would town be "self-conscious" at all, much less self-conscious of non-existent errors?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Plum, what do you think of BRO's interpretation of Dan's statements. I could see a scenario where Dan is town and BRO is scum buddying him.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

lol falcon, your answers are kind of shit and you're either being kind of dense or not following my logic, let me lay it out for you:

Nice discredit.

It can come from both town or scum, but he chose one interpretation and ran with it.

Then he followed up on it in a way to check that assumption, and came to the conclusion that his initial assumption was right. I'm not getting why you aren't following that sequence of positions; it's not like it's hard.

You're second point is actually worth responding to (grats on that ). However, he's likely working off the assumption that you'd look at his posts in some depth and try to figure out what he's gunning and, and try to figure out why town might interpret things a certain way. It's like my response to Muffin after he voted me; I looked back at what he was saying to try to gauge his trajectory. The fact that you didn't do the same and come to the same conclusion as him would set off alarm bells from a townDan, wouldn't it?

So yeah, can you give me more things that are worth my time? I'd appreciate it kthx.

That is dependent on the assumption that there is an ERROR in my statement where it isn't. Also, how does his "trajectory" on me make sense?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Kaze, I was thinking that scum were splitting votes on me/F-16, but F-16's shit answers are making me question that.

HOW THE FUCK ARE MY RESPONSES SHIT? YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON. I EXPLAINED EVERYTHING OVER AND OVER AND YOU ARE STILL NOT GETTING IT.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

What's there for me to respond to? I don't argue with scum.

Because you strawmanned my argument, not me Myk's.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

This is fucking idiotic. Scum are pushing my wagon either in response to Pasch or BRO because the stupid town can't figure out who the scum are if scum danced in front of them wearing nothing.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Bro, you've thrice complained that it would be impossible for scum not to know about the weak stuff, and have even said that it would be "gamebreakingly bad modding" for that to be so. If you're wrong, that's one hell of an insult to pitoli. I think it's unlikely that you'd be willing to tell the mod off like that, especially since you've modded yourself and not without difficulty. The only way you could be sure you're not seriously insulting pitoli is if you are scum and you were indeed told about the weak modifier.

VOTE: bro

fwiw, I think pasch is scum too~

I am down with lynching BRO as well. Even if he is town, he is a fucktard so w/e.

VOTE: BROseidon

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Why are you unvoting?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Sorry not sorry that you're heads stuck too far up your ass to see my logic.

And it's not dependent on their being an error. Everything in this game is relative. Ffery had a good quote in a dead thread about this.

His trajectory makes sense because I can track his thought process to see why he thinks that you're scum. Doesn't mean I agreed with him.

Until now.

I find it interesting that right after I push you there's suddenly people coming out of the woodwork to attack me.

VOTE: F-16

F-16/Kagami/x. I like Pie from earlier, but I'm not sure it makes sense with F-16 Kagami.

Muffin's town.

You are completely evading my question and throwing around vague bullshit like "everything in the game is relative." There was one person that attacked you. Who are these "people" coming out of the woodwork? Plum was happy to say that your shitlord logic is making sense because for whatever reason it seems like town are buying into your arguments.

How is Muffin town? Because he unvoted you?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

No. Bad. Very bad. Make it stop.

Why is it bad. He is spending a massive amount of time discrediting me and acting like he is King fucking BROseidon in his fuck-all-rationality castle sitting on his mighty throne acting like a fucktard.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Given you/Kagami/X scum, muffin wouldn't unvote there.

People is really just Kagami. Still, the timing on that attack is, like, classic chainsaw.

And you just misrepped Plum's point.

I didn't misrep anything. If you are town, you really need to work on your communication skills. I'll just tell you honestly, you are the most uncharismatic player I've ever had the misfortune to play with. You don't attempt to understand anyone's arguments. You just keep bullshitting like you know everything and go into vague generalities like "depends" and shut down discussion. You never really engaged anything I said calling my arguments shit or undermining them, not to mention discrediting me. All I am asking is for you to use your brain and actually understand what I am saying.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I am just really tired of this crap.

I need to step away from this game for a bit and hopefully talk to someone that actually makes sense like Tammy. I'll probably check back later tonight.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

UNVOTE:

I'll re-evaluate BRO from scratch and read through his past games. I don't want to vote him out of annoyance. I still can't get away from the thought that he is deliberately trying to be annoying to get under my skin and make me look bad and himself look good.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I definitely think there is scum among {BRO, Pasch}. Looking through their meta should help figure out who it is. Do you have any completed games with Pasch?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Which were the ones that you skimmed through? I want to take a look through them.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

As a heads up, I am going to be hydra-ing with Mastin2, i.e. a hydra of me and Mastin2 (Mafia Theory) will replace me.

Looking forward to posting a shit-ton of analysis tonight.