Mini 1524: Olympian Gods Mafia - Game Over

[penguin_alien]

Just read up.

Seeing Mollie as town which is my first town read. Gut town feeling on ArcAngel.

Unsure on Wisdom, I have a sight feeling on MattP, but I need to see more, but I can probably see him being town.

Whiskers I have played with before, but I want to check something on meta as I haven't played with him in a while.

Nacho is being quite defensive, but I think he's probably town for it.

VOTE: Penguin_Alien

I like my vote there for now.^

^ I'm crushed, positively crushed.

Excessive banter reads townish all around. That or an overly wild Saturday night.

VOTE: Mirari

Since that's a thing.

[penguin_alien]

I meant naked votes was a thing, not you, Mirari(!)

[penguin_alien]

Not liking Malakittens' defense against Wisdom either. It's got a big whiff of AtE around it.

Last time I saw Mala get emotional she basically made herself conf-town, to my scum-self's dismay. I don't think I've played with scum-Mala, oddly enough, but this isn't out of line with her town play.

mollie and AA9 apparently town-reading each other isn't surprising. AA9's confidence does look towny, and if mollie wasn't town-reading her I'd be surprised.

Oopsie daisy.
Why leave yourself out, Wisdom?

makes me not mind my vote on Mirari.

[penguin_alien]

Her reply is very similar in timing to this. Please note I voted her and then she responded there to how I did here. It's odd how she only decided to come into this thread after a voted landed on her.

There's a big difference between an RVS vote and a serious vote on Day Five of a game. I don't see your point.

shos, do you have a specific problem with MattP's vote on you?

[penguin_alien]

I don't get the 'Nacho was defensive' thing.

[penguin_alien]

Yeah, that still doesn't look like Nacho being defensive. Who tried to spin it that way first, mollie? Then AA9, then Mala.

I understood that it was a relative tell that he was talking about.

what is funny is I don't really think that nacho was being defensive, I was mostly trolling him and pushing his buttons and while I get why arc and mebbe even mala followed my push cos they he and I are pretty good friends and sometimes nacho can be a blank slate that is best observed through other people's eyes when all you see is an empty canvas but i find your push to be weird.

Hey, thanks for answering a question I addressed to someone else.

I don't think he was being defensive either. My quote that made me think he was trying to play to that "relative tell" was "NO NO NO NO NO."
That's not a real defence. It's not real defensiveness. But is it "screaming his little head off"?

So, misrepping, too.

I like you a

lot

.

If mollie actually intended to get anything useful out of this, I'd think it would be that people who agreed with her 'Nacho = defensive' claim immediately are opportunistic, while those who bother to disagree are towny. But then she votes the one who calls out the absurdity of the initial statement.

[penguin_alien]

Rereading it I'd say that I got a Whiskers town-read out of it. I'm not clear on why you didn't.

[penguin_alien]

I read it as Whiskers thinking Nacho wasn't defensive, not that he was pretending to be defensive. Why would scum-Whiskers engage in that way? I'm not seeing the scum motivation.

[penguin_alien]

ooba, where's the AA9 vote coming from?

[penguin_alien]

ooba, where's the AA9 vote coming from?

Didn't you read his picture?

Yes, but I'm not sure why his vote landed there of the people he mentioned.

[penguin_alien]

I assumed he found either Whiskers or Nacho also scummy in context.

[penguin_alien]

I was wondering why he voted AA9 over Nacho. Although I'm kind of hoping he drops the picture thing soon, or at least relegates it to an occasional feature rather than a mode of interaction.

[penguin_alien]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mala

penguin's last posts were a little better.

I disagree. She's still doing the similar post only when called upon thing that she did when she was scum in Manical (Mastin-NY)

Yup. Which is the same thing I coached her on when we were both scum in Castle mafia.

Actually you coached me on playing less like WWE and more like NY 164...! Couldn't comment at the time though.

I like words better than pictures, obviously I'm in the minority there.

[penguin_alien]

@ Penguin: Uh...no? I was coaching you to play less like WWE and more like Calvin and Hobbes.

Sorry, I was thinking of this:

PA is definitely playing different in this game. In WWE, PA never addressed someone individually unless it was to implicate them as scum.

In contrast, ISO her in this game and you see a lot of interactions initiated by her that never materialize into scum reads.

(Snipped for length)

If I based my read solely on this I would have PA as town this game.

I like words better than pictures, obviously I'm in the minority there.

Spoiler: Post 3.5

I'll assume that's 'heresy' although now that I'm on my tablet I'll add that it's annoying not to be able to see the whole pic in the thread too.

[penguin_alien]

Because I remembered finding the coaching ironic but I couldn't say anything due to the NY 164 game being ongoing.

[penguin_alien]

I appreciate the spoilering, but when I unspoilered 3.0 I couldn't see the whole thing without C&Ping the pic link into a new window.

At any rate I can mostly follow your arguments and based on your graph trust that it won't go on forever, so I'll hush about it now.

[penguin_alien]

Yeah, I want to see where Mala's going with this, as she's never gone out this strongly after me before. Maybe she believes her ability to read me has improved, but I seem to recall the two of us being massively paranoid about one another in past games only for it to amount to either nothing or a blow to the town. There's been a town-Mala scum-me game completed since then, but I still think she's grandstanding.

As far as you go, Wisdom, you haven't been very interested in engaging me. You're more interested in talking about my play. Sure, you asked why I questioned ooba's AA9 vote, and then read my thought process as scummy. Your tunneling in spite of yourself reads as town-Wisdom to me, FWIW, which makes me want to give you more time to sort stuff out if you're so inclined.

Defending myself--meh. Mala's argument for me being scum is--I replied to one of her posts. Which, yeah, string me up for that. Wisdom, telling you you're wrong seems like a waste of time to me. You know you have the potential to be wrong, I know you're wrong. So? What's more useful for you, Wisdom, me telling you you're wrong, or me trying to find scum and assuming your evaluation is ongoing?

Whiskers criticizing the use of meta is another town point in his favor; no reason for scum not to smile and nod along without picking on other people's scum-hunting, especially when it doesn't land on him. mollie, assuming you're town, can you step back and consider how much sense it makes for Whiskers to clash with you all over the thread?

MattP, I'm not getting your gut read on shos. Do you have other reads at present? You said you had Mala as town; anything else?

P-edit: ninja'd. I'll go read your latest posts, MattP, and get back to you.

[penguin_alien]

I have not forgotten about my vote. Although Mala bugging mollie for a read on her is making me strongly consider Mala-scum.

[penguin_alien]

More verbose than I'm used to. Last serious game we played I wrongly scum-read him until near the end. Here he's transparent and engaged, as opposed to just being engaged in the other game. I would put him leaning town and definitely wouldn't lynch him today.

[penguin_alien]

I'm not seeing what other people are in shos. I kind of see the mollie argument. I'm not following this game well at this point.

It seems like even if I disagree I should at least get what the arguments about shos are, as they can't all be coming from scum.

I'll read with a fresh head tomorrow.

[penguin_alien]

OK, staying awake long enough to figure out what's going on here.

I will say that I don't remember Mala storming out after me at the start of a game before. Can't find an example in my completed games. So for her to say that I'm acting differently that I have in the past when she's done this is perplexing.

I also don't see the tradeoff for scum-Mala to be investing so heavily in this scum read on me, since my town flip would leave her with egg on her face.

Promised catch-up/coherent thoughts incoming.

[penguin_alien]

I'm not getting 'scum' from the shos ISO. Reading through his posts, I find myself nodding along.

Wisdom looks town, mostly because it seems like he can't help himself as town from tunneling, being fixated on his reads, and generally not changing his game overmuch. Not what I saw from scum-Wisdom in Newbie 1448.

GG is paranoid and suspicious. Not looking for the easy buddy with shos, and he's not afraid to tangle with Nacho. His refutation of the 'Mala goes and looks up Actor to see if that could be MattP's role' supposed town tell is in line with my opinion as well.

Whiskers is town. Sorry, but scum don't see someone with an emotional playstyle and say, 'gee, let's push that person's buttons for funsies.'

AA9 is saying all the town-AA9 things, but in a game like this where she knows a decent number of people, I'd expect the interactive part of her style to be more front-and-center. Heaven knows I get being behind, but it's a drastic falloff. On the other hand, her defensiveness about it is townish, so I'd let it slide pending further info.

Desperado's willing to engage with mollie over the weak Whiskers scum read and tells Wisdom off. I disagree about shos, but I think he has a point with mollie.

Mala thinking that MattP would indicate his role so early on looks like hopeful scum. I don't think that Mala would pull any fake emotional stuff, so I think her frustration with Wisdom is genuine.

This:

@ Wisdom: Arc (early townread w/ mollie) and someone weird...Mirari?

Mala, I'm seeing the same things you are. I don't think it's her towngame either.

With that said, humans are...human, and she might just be off her towngame.

This doesn't chive w/ your last post before this.

You are now thinking Peng is a ML and I'm scum.

Get your feelings straight.

isn't town interacting with other people's reads. This is 'how dare you change your mind even a little bit.'

MattP, still don't see him laying out anything that convinces me shos is even scummy, let alone scum. (and to clarify, by 'following the game' I mean 'comprehending the arguments that mirror popular opinion' rather than 'reading the thread') But I'm willing to buy that he has a strong mutual town read on/with Wisdom, and Wisdom-town makes me think MattP-town.

Mirari, I don't like posts like this:

Not that I know. I have only played two games here and I don't think you were a player in those games. I'm just asking you too vote because ooba votes are bad.

where it takes more than one post for Mirari to explain why ooba votes are bad. It's not helpful and reads as artificial to me.

Calling shos' posts filler is also a gross mischaracterization. You can disagree with the content, but there's no way they're fluff.

Also the same reason penguin is scum. I just realized Mala is on her wagon. That increases the credibility of the wagon and the likelihood of penguin being scum if you ask me. Decisions, decisions...

This is odd. You don't mention Mala that I can find anywhere else before this in your postings, yet suddenly her being on my wagon makes it so much better. And to say that she's 'on my wagon' is a mild way of putting it; she's been on my wagon forever pushing my lynch. This isn't some surprising new development that represents someone changing her mind about me.

Nacho, don't agree with all his stances, but I'm getting a gut-town vibe off him. Anything further I'd like to think I can sort out a bit further down the line.

ooba, here:

Penguin scum flip would mean Mala town. Plus I never liked the fact that Nacho was on the shos wagon. Lets see where this leads..

Vote: Penguin

seems like town being frank. And considering their wagons in light of other reads, instead of trying to push lynches through irrespective of inconsistencies in their stances. I'd like it better without the slight implication of it being an exploratory vote. Also seems flexible in a non-scummy way.

mollie, still don't comprehend the inflexibility on Whiskers earlier. I get being annoyed with someone, but at a certain point it's only reasonable to step back and see if there's a non-'people are attacking me!' explanation. The Whiskers conflict read as a good way for mollie to kill time. The chair discussion also seems null. Yes, I've seen town-mollie pull it out, but I certainly wouldn't draw conclusions from it, given that the goal of the game as scum is to play a town game in any aspects that don't damage your team's chances. The chair pic falls under that category.



Overall reads:

Town:
shos
GG
Whiskers
Wisdom

Town enough I would disagree with their lynch:
AA9
Desperado
MattP
Nacho
ooba

Scum enough that I wouldn't condemn their lynch:
Mirari
Mala
mollie

Scum:
I'm too out of sync with a lot of people's reads to feel like I have anyone whose lynch I'd feel super-confident on.

That's all I have tonight.

[penguin_alien]

There wasn't a single thing in your catchup that offered anything insightful or clever in thought. Everything was too straightforward, and that means to me that you're not really thinking too hard.

Suit yourself. I don't think I've ever been clever at this point in a game, and if you want to wagon me for it that's your prerogative obviously, but that's what I'm seeing. Do you think I'm sheeping someone? Trying to avoid provoking someone? What's the scum motive for not thinking too hard?

I don't understand penguins read on Mala or Matt.

Ooba posting remains low energy which makes me sad.

Matt, I don't have a good read on. I know I disagree with a lot of his opinions, but at this point I consider that near-null. I do think Wisdom is town, and so at this point I'm willing to trust Wisdom's town read on him basically, with a side order of MattP setting Wisdom up as very hard to lynch if MattP is scum, which seems suboptimal for scum at this stage.

Mala, I've only seen play town. Posts like the one I pointed out in my general rundown read as her being disappointed in not getting her lynch. I get that she has reason to be paranoid of me, but her trying to line that paranoia up with times when she's caught scum-me are weak, given that I can think of three occasions in the past year where she's found me suspect near the end and was only correct on one occasion. And those were near the end, not her coming out early game breaking down my play.

Add to that another of my suspects (Mirari) cheerleading Mala out of nowhere, and I'm pretty sure I have scum somewhere in my scum reads.

[penguin_alien]

penguin, what do you think of the mollie/shos connections I've pointed out?

If this:

It's L-2 by my count.

But that's interesting, I have a different theory. She is going to support your vote was a bussing vote and push you after shos flips scum. Knowing mollie, that "interesting" was "I caught your buddy". Whether it's scum mollie bussing shos or town mollie continuing to be stuck I'm not completely sure, but I'm leaning towards the former.

is what you mean, I still tend to think shos is town and if lynched we'd have a wagon on town to pick apart. At that point, I see the 'interesting' followed by a vote as setting up Whiskers for later, as mollie is able to point directly to Whiskers for a reason why she'd help string up town-shos and further strengthen a case against Whiskers. Since realistically speaking, mollie and Whiskers have been clashing so much that if one of them is scum they need the other to be done in by town.

I don't think mollie would have a good case of 'you caught scum and convinced me to follow you; you must also be scum!' in this situation. I've played with mollie-scum once (Mini 1432) and didn't catch her until her slot was replaced and her replacement couldn't account for mechanics issues, but this game isn't making me think town-mollie either.

So tl;dr: if I'm wrong and shos is scum and does get lynched, mollie might try the maneuver you outline there, but I don't think she'd have much luck with it, nor is it what I'd think is going on.

[penguin_alien]

Someone asked me if I liked my vote on Mirari. Given that we have time before deadline, yes. I still haven't heard why Mirari came out of nowhere claiming that the wagon on me was better because Mala was on it having completely ignored Mala up to that point, and claiming that ooba and Mirari knowing each other offline means their mutual townreads make them surefire parts of a town block (ugh, town blocks: scum central) is less than rigorous.

I'll second (or third or whatever) that I've seen Mala replace out of a game as town. It was after a fairly lengthy conflict though, and I don't remember if she threatened to do so first or just got fed up and left. If mollie or Nacho remember, I'd take their words on it.

Nacho, do you disagree with my re-explained Mala and MattP reads or still not see where I'm coming from?

shos says: "you're a girl. that's like AtE automatically for me" Not cool, man.

Starting my catchup. I'm not going to be compiling a list of things to comment on like shos. If you want my opinion on something, ask me (after I've read).

Looking at the last few pages I don't get the Mala scum read. She seems pretty protown oriented in her discussion and suspects. Did you all suffer a collective stroke?

What's protown? She's 'scum-reading' the person who's voting you? Why the weird phrasing about you liking the wagon on me because she was on it, given that that was an understated characterization seeing as she's pushed it the entire game so far?

However, he said he was changing his playstyle for this game. Hm, Wis-scum playing like Wis-town? That'd be a change, eh?

He was also trying to change his play style in Newbie 1448. From a mod perspective, I found him much different--less inclined to tunnel, keeping his options open more, being accommodating. Here even if he says he wants to change his play style, this is default town-Wisdom leaking through. He was trying to maintain a facade in Newbie 1448, one that worked well for scum-Wisdom, but I'm not seeing that reproduced here.

What? Why wouldn't they? That's incredibly fun (see also: trolling, griefing), and when you're a pretty-much-unanimous townread (whiskers seems to be) what would stop you?

...OK, major difference of opinion. Yelling at people for me is never fun; if I lose my temper I feel badly for days afterwards, and yes, that applies to gratuitously antagonizing people as well.

You're kidding, right? I'm pretty sure Mala uses AtE consistently and without remorse.

I haven't played with scum-Mala. I know town-Mala doesn't fake AtE and follows through on genuinely expressed emotions. Much to my chagrin in NY 164.

...and you apparently care about none of this.

(AA9, I hope your cousin ends up all right.)

[penguin_alien]

992 yawn. Peng continues the tunnel on me. Nothing new there.. She takes my comment about mala out of context. I wasn't saying mala being there is something new. I was saying it was my first notice of the wagon composition.

It took you that long to notice Mala was scum reading me?

And why assume she can read me better than I can read her?

[penguin_alien]

Glad Penguin ignored all of my posts I had written for her.

._.

Nothing you've said recently has changed my opinion of you. Anything in particular you feel I'm willfully ignoring?

[penguin_alien]

First off, if you think you going after me here is like going after me in Mini 1413 where the mod sent me my role PM two full days after everyone else and didn't tell me about the issue, you're really reaching. You thought I was lying about something; that's entirely different from claiming to pressure me to obtain a read on me.

Yes, my read on AA9 is flimsy. So's her content thus far; we'll see what HF turns up. Some people might be able to read her off her postings thus far; I'm not that confident. Sue me.

Saying someone would try to imitate their town game as scum and so we should never town read people because they could be faking is a useless argument WRT Desperado.

I don't read you as town right now. Mirari isn't helping that, but I'm also skeptical of you asking about an Actor role. I also don't see you scum-hunting much outside of me, and given how many of these people you've played with, I don't see it as coming from town-you.

mollie and Desperado are not playing the same game here. Why would I have the same read on them? And why would Desperado changing his mind based on information be scummy?

[penguin_alien]

Just seems like you're hedging on some of your reads leaving a LOT LOT LOT of opportunity to change it.

I'm hunting a lot besides you, but I have a lot of town reads due to it rather than scum reads.

Your FoS on me just seems OMGUS-like.

I'm just shocked on how you haven't moved your vote onto me since it's pretty obvious your vote on Mirari is just idle-like of a vote. (Then you can say the same for mine, but I have a glimpse of support.) I kinda get the feeling you're trying to keep your distance or you really feel 'confident' in your Mirari vote.

Blech league game, byeee

I don't need to hedge to change my reads later. The nature of the game is that stuff happens to cause reads to change.

I happen to like my Mirari vote. I think there's been a lot of easy dismissal of stuff coming from the slot (like, 'Oh, we play IRL with a different group of people and scum-Mirari there acts differently, so this is town-Mirari!') and I have no problem sticking with it. It certainly puts Mirari's tail in a twist, and I want to see what else he comes up with.

Speaking of which:

What's protown? She's 'scum-reading' the person who's voting you? Why the weird phrasing about you liking the wagon on me because she was on it, given that that was an understated characterization seeing as she's pushed it the entire game so far?

I think she's town for opinions during the game. Everything seems off the cuff and the like. The only one that is going to end up with egg on their face for pushing a lynch is you that's for damn sure. Only warning.

No, that's a nice projection of your own opinions though. She's attacking you strongly when she could be appeasing you. You two play with each other a lot, it would be better strategy to kill you silently rather than go for a lynch against you.

I'll give you an analogy... people claiming global warming exists citing their own personal observations of ecology isn't going to hold much weight. When a PhD person in ecology and the like comes in and says global warming exists citing observations, the legitimacy of the claim goes up. Do you disagree?
I know you and mala are in a hydra right now from looking into you that's why I think she can read you accurately. that was around when I noticed mala was on your wagon and I thought "this is more credible". it is also why I think your approach to her is more generally "safe scum". You scumreading her right now looks like the least confrontational path to that conclusion you could have taken after many days of delay.

I love this post

Yeah...I don't. Prior evidence indicates that Mala hardly has a PhD in reading me. Every time she's gone after me hard she's been wrong. She's been suspicious of me when I'm scum, but not in an all-encompassing "this is scum-PA, lynch it with fire" kind of way.

As far as hydraing with someone, sure, it might give you insight into their game, but seeing as we have no completed hydra games, this isn't an argument I can delve into ATM.

Basically, Mirari's post reeks of confirmation-bias. Which I still find interesting given that he didn't comment on Mala at all prior to the PA wagon observation.

I have not forgotten about my vote. Although Mala bugging mollie for a read on her is making me strongly consider Mala-scum.

So I noted this and waited for you to post, tried to engage so I knew you were following along.

Why call this alignment indictive, but when Grim does the same exact thing you say nothing, I litteraly mean nothing out of it?

Just went through GG's iso from before this point, and I don't see anywhere where he asks someone how they're reading him. He asks why they're interacting with them in particular ways, he asks what they think of their own play. Not the same thing. Can you quote what you're talking about?


MattP claiming neighborizer is anti-town as all get-out. If nothing else, he's telling scum that he has a role that isn't worth NKing. With no lynch pressure on him, I'm not seeing any reason to claim like that as town. Besides not feeling like reading through what was already in the thread, MattP, why claim at that time?

Having said that, given the limited number of potential characters, I'm not sure there's any reason not to mass flavor claim now. Possibly in a more typical theme it would be more of a power giveaway, but everyone's a deity here, so. Eliminating scum's ability to switch fakeclaims if they have them is to the good. I can't see the harm. Don't think I've played in a game where flavor's been mass-claimed D1, but we're quickly moving toward that happening anyways.

[penguin_alien]

penguin, would you switch to Mala if there's no support for Mirari (which most likely there isn't)?

Yes, although I'd be grumpy that there's no support for Mirari.

What do you think about mass flavor claiming after MattP explains what the hell he was thinking claiming neighborizer at this time?

[penguin_alien]

Having said that, given the limited number of potential characters, I'm not sure there's any reason not to mass flavor claim now. Possibly in a more typical theme it would be more of a power giveaway, but everyone's a deity here, so. Eliminating scum's ability to switch fakeclaims if they have them is to the good. I can't see the harm. Don't think I've played in a game where flavor's been mass-claimed D1, but we're quickly moving toward that happening anyways.

fuck yeah

I'm

Hades

There you go, brother!

[penguin_alien]

Having said that, given the limited number of potential characters, I'm not sure there's any reason not to mass

flavor claim now

.

Pos

sibly in a more typical theme it would be more of a power giveaway, but everyone's a deity here, so.

E

liminating scum's ability to switch fakeclaims if they have them is to the good.

I

can't see the harm.

Don

't think I've played in a game where flavor's been mass-claimed D1, but we're quickly moving toward that happening anyways.

Poseidon. Figured people might get tetchy about the mass flavor claim idea, and I figured I should put my money where my mouth was.

'brother' was also there for that reason...!

[penguin_alien]

Why not flavor claiming at this juncture? We're basically going to get flavor from Whiskers, GG, and whoever gets run up today. Plus MattP's out there. When everyone's a god, it's less telling to scum. And since flavor seems to line up with role, it'll reduce scum shenanigans down the road.

[penguin_alien]

For Peng

with love

Mala

Yes, he asked about mollie's perception of him as well, but it was in the context of asking about plenty of other reads and an ongoing dialogue. Yours came off as insecure scum:

Hey Mollie

Hey Mollie

What's your read on me?

You weren't engaged with mollie about anything else at the time. Why prioritize her read on you over any other activity from her?

[penguin_alien]

Mala, If you're town and think mollie's town, why not try to work with her regardless? Wouldn't you most likely prove your alignment in the process?

And why no follow-up when mollie didn't answer? She put you off with saying she couldn't read you or didn't want to read you yet. And no attempt to work with her/interact with her aside from a very halfhearted attempt to diffuse the Whiskers-mollie fighting?

Mirari, I think your suspicions are coming from scum. Which makes them not legit and 'weird' has very little to do with it.

You say MattP has no scum motive to claim--what's the town motive then? P-edit: Wisdom asked it as well, but consider this me seconding the request.

P-edit #2: Mala swallowing unconfirmable IRL meta is awful. Not buying it at all. Our first game with mollie? Open 459 where I killed you N1 because you were town-reading me IIRC?

P-edit #3: WISDOM STOP TAKING MY THOUGHTS!

[penguin_alien]

P-edit #3: WISDOM STOP TAKING MY THOUGHTS!

sorry, I'm trying not to butt in but can't help it

(I meant reading my mind and making my questions repetitive, not that I mind the content; no apology necessary)

[penguin_alien]

Yeah, Mirari, your assigned motivations are not correct. Whee.

FYI, HF, I'm not on your reads list.

More later.

P-edit: well, I'm out for a few hours; no quick-voting from me!

[penguin_alien]

and goddess of the moon.

...which is what ooba said.

She's more associated with hunting however

More relevant even than the sun/moon stuff is the fact that they're twins? Doesn't matter though; MattP didn't claim Artemis.

/mythology geekery

havingfitz can be town for his answer to Mala's questioning his read on her; no frantic looking for specifics to back him up, just the town replacement attitude of 'let me get a feel for what's going on, make gut reads, and proceed from there.'

[penguin_alien]

How delayed is your role?

[penguin_alien]

That fits flavor-wise and whatnot.

Working from the assumption you're town, can you take another look at Mirari--ignoring the crap about whether ooba has IRL meta tells that scum-Mirari would almost certainly be able to avoid replicating here--and give me your read?

[penguin_alien]

Wisdom, does QT cop make sense for a scum role though? Could be cover for a role cop, sure, but if it's actually a QT cop, which fits with Aphrodite flavor, it's an even weaker role for scum. It's also a quirky role for Mala to fake, given that I've seen it twice: once in Book Mafia (for real, town power) and once in 2.5 Friend Large Mafia (faked by NC in one of several gambits to get Yates lynched). And when NC pulled out the claim in 2.5 Mafia, it was widely agreed that no one in the group had seen it outside Book Mafia.

P-edit: thinking what I'm thinking again. I'll be over here, shutting up.

[penguin_alien]

Wisdom, not that I recall. :searches topics: No.

[penguin_alien]

GG, my understanding is that usually a neighborizer doesn't kick in until the end of the night, at which point if there's no daytalk they can't communicate anyways. It can't happen sooner, as if there's any type of interference with the neighborizer or neighborizee, the neighborhood won't form.

MattP, why did you claim when you did? Because to a paranoid mind it could appear that you claimed when it looked like Mala might be run up so scum-Mala's fakeclaim would make sense.

IIRC, Zeus threw Hephaestus off Mount Olympus because he was ugly. He's also the son of Hera and Zeus, and he and Aphrodite are an item. Not much about him fostering communication, but I don't know most of the myths associated with him.

[penguin_alien]

Greek gods: making the rest of us look like paragons of virtue.

[penguin_alien]

Caught up. I'm not lynching Mala, period. Her reactions make no sense from scum, and no way scum-Mala would keep fake scum-reading me all the way to the gallows. On a less personal level, the role just makes too much sense.

MattP looks worse to me, but I'd like to see where Mirari goes.

[penguin_alien]

Now you're back to saying I'm town.

._.

I don't know about 'back to' but yes, I'm town reading you.

[penguin_alien]

---

Penguin is quick to call both the AA9\fitz slots town - both of which are flimsy reasons:

AA9 is saying all the town-AA9 things, but in a game like this where she knows a decent number of people, I'd expect the interactive part of her style to be more front-and-center. Heaven knows I get being behind, but it's a drastic falloff. On the other hand, her defensiveness about it is townish, so I'd let it slide pending further info.

havingfitz can be town for his answer to Mala's questioning his read on her; no frantic looking for specifics to back him up, just the town replacement attitude of 'let me get a feel for what's going on, make gut reads, and proceed from there.'

I just finished a game with scum-havingfitz where he was my top scum read while I was alive. It helped that he pretended to vig my mason partner, but it was still a pretty solid read. This is a different havingfitz.

ooba, have you actually played forum mafia with Mirari? Because I don't see any overlap in your games prior to this one on this forum, and there's a huge difference between an hour-long f2f game and a months-long text-based game.

[penguin_alien]

I don't like that her scumread on Mala disregards everything that penguin was publicly mulling over before; I feel like Mala pushing hard on town penguin for absolutely no reason is the type of thing that would stand out the strongest to town penguin, yet all we get is "hopeful scum" (what?) and one quote of Mala's. This is especially weird when she is happy to call mollie scum for inflexibility of Whiskers.

I don't like that she calls Matt town because Wisdom town.

And I don't like the general trend of picking out a post and having that decide the read as opposed to making reads based on the big picture; I can see Peng opening ISOs, finding a post she thinks she can comment on, then ignoring the rest.

Mala has a history of being paranoid of me and misreading me, although usually not until later. Basing my read of her entirely on that isn't helpful to the thread in general and even to me in particular.

I don't like that I didn't have anything less nebulous to read MattP on than Wisdom's read. I remember having no problem believing IaI's fake cop claim on him in NY 161, but this isn't the same MattP as was there. I find his neighborization claim the scummiest, and I'm not entirely buying into Wisdom's neighbor/lover theory.

If I quote a post, I generally consider it representative/illustrative rather than the sum total of the person's play. Sure, I could be doing what you describe--I can't prove a negative. But I'm not, so.

I don't really want to. But I will if you insist. I don't want to make a "case" like the one you made against me for the sake of making a "case". Wasted time for everyone involved. I will do that later.

I'd like to hear your current case on me. Although since you think it's wasted time to make a case, I don't have high hopes.

As far as neighborizers go, what about having them neighborize one another? It lets them use their roles without giving everyone a QT and so maximizes Mala's role's utility. And since there is a good chance of having a scum neighborizer, it lets the town one(s) sort the scum one(s) a bit.

P-edit: Thanks ever so, Wisdom.

[penguin_alien]

Your theory is that all male gods are neighborizers and most of the female gods are neighborizable? But I haven't seen anything to indicate that male gods can't be neighborized.

[penguin_alien]

Then I don't understand your theory or how it's anything more than pointing out that the claimed neighborizers all have male gods for flavor.

[penguin_alien]

Yes, not neighborizing at all is also an option that's been discussed. But if supposedly three of, what, ballpark ten townies here have a PR of neighborizer and we just ignore it entirely, it seems likely to put us at a disadvantage. They could all be town, I suppose, given Mala's QT cop thing. But they're going to look worse regardless as the game progresses. Letting them help sort one another is an option.

I would be surprised if neighborizers = lovers given that 'lover' is a very specific role on MS.

[penguin_alien]

If other neighborizers have QTs set up, then they should definitely neighborize one another and/or Mala.

Whiskers, I do disagree that 'town lies' should be put up there with 'scum lies.' On the whole of it scum should be lying way more than town, and nearly any lies town would tell could be ones scum would find useful too. Not everything, but mostly. IMHO, if you think someone is lying, even if you can see the town motivation, there's likely a potential scum motivation there too.

[penguin_alien]

I just want to point out that, I'm the "other neighborizer," and I'm the "unanimous townread." So maybe it should add some weight that I'm the one saying this?

My role does not overlap with his. I'm Apollo, a Day Neighborizer. Which, when I think about it, seems a lot more like a scum role, doesn't it?

Day Neighborizer

So that's why you asked Mala whether she was already neighborized. You assumed Matt also works at day.

The weird thing is that Mala answered "I don't know" as opposed to "no", as if she also knew the neighborizers are supposed to work at day.

Exactly. Or, I'm not sure if that's what it is "As if," but it certainly was a weird way to answer it. If you have been Neighborized-- that's fairly straightforward.

My role does not overlap with his. I'm Apollo, a Day Neighborizer. Which, when I think about it, seems a lot more like a scum role, doesn't it?

Not alignment indicative - flavor wise this is pretty strong - esp. the day\night dual nature.

Also - if possible, I would like the neighbourizers to consider me when neighbourizing. It should be beneficial.

Yeah, maybe. Will you be more talkative if I neighborize you than you have been in the thread? Because if not, it'd really be a waste, wouldn't it?
Also, since I'm a Dayborizer, would it really be useful to you?

Your claim itself I feel is more likely scum than the other 2 neighborizer claims.

I agree. Mine stands out a lot and it seems like, since town can already talk during the Day, and scum would really benefit more from doing so privately, it is more of a scum role. Of course, I can't tell you I'm scum. But I do certainly think my role is scummy.

If there are no more neighbors (praying to Olympic godz at this point), your claim seems to have safety built into it from a design perspective. Right now Mala can check to see if people have a QT. If you are scum you will have a QT. You using your power on D1 makes it so that you will have a QT and thus avoid being hit by her cop ability. An activation of a Godfather ability in my opinion.

I haven't used my power. I use my power at night, and I don't get a QT until the next Day.
So, Mala should Cop me, read me Tonight, while I neighborize her. Then she knows I'm town, and we share a DayQT.

Actually. I take that back.

I don't know if everybody's role is like this, but mine says, I neighborize someone, share a quicktopic with them, "located here" and gives a link.
So technically, I already have a QT.
Checking the QT, it says I'm allowed to talk to myself pregame, but can not talk there when night starts.
I probably should have checked the QT before now (I didn't think I needed to; I had nobody I was neighbored with), I could have left them some thoughts or something.

Oh right, so I should point this out, too:
That means I can technically neighbor Night 1, but effectively it doesn't work until Day 2.

(quotes snipped for relevance to topic at hand)

Wisdom, I'm not seeing any contradictions here. I will admit that I also assumed that the 'Day' part meant that Whiskers' choice was made during the day phase, but the early comments about it being more useful for scum line up with it being a Neighborization that lead to a Day QT. The response to ooba is in line with this. And quite frankly, if people were misinterpreting my role, I'd want to see where they went with it, as their views on it just might reveal something about their knowledge of the set-up that would be helpful should they flip scum.

[penguin_alien]

Off the top of my head, thinking maybe scum got a chance to neighborize pre-game or was trying to catch Mala out in a lie given the timing of Matt's claim.

Please go read Whisker's ISO from #1564/ISO #153 and explain to me where he misleads us or where it was anti-town not to correct our assumptions.

[penguin_alien]

Prod dodge; I'll catch up here tonight.

[penguin_alien]

Too tired for this tonight after all. Tomorrow catch-up.

[penguin_alien]

Neighbors have confirmed that they have QTs in place already, which makes me like the idea of having them neighborize one another to aid in sorting.

Virgin-hunting seems less useful. Flavor-wise it's possible to have multiple virgins, but it's pretty speculative, plus given that all the neighborizers that have claimed work differently, it's likely that multiple virgins would work differently as well.

[penguin_alien]

It's a theory. One that may or may not turn out to be true. Given the resistance to a mass flavor claim before, outing all potential virgins flies in the face of that, given the limited amount of flavor left to be claimed after that point.

ika seems like a convenient lynch. I'd rather lynch MattP over him at this point.

[penguin_alien]

It's a theory. One that may or may not turn out to be true. Given the resistance to a mass flavor claim before, outing all potential virgins flies in the face of that, given the limited amount of flavor left to be claimed after that point.

ika seems like a convenient lynch. I'd rather lynch MattP over him at this point.

Can we lynch this yet?
Doesn't even address my wagon. Happy to see that roll like a tumble weed.

Tell you what, why don't you just assume that you're my top lynch choice until I say otherwise, OK? I may discuss other people. I may indicate a willingness to lynch other people rather than insist that it's my way or the highway. I may even be disinclined to humor a theory that because you can twist my reads list to fit your claimed perceived scum team that I must be scum. None of that means I'm any less interested in seeing you swing, mmkay?

Nachomamma8, do you doubt that some of the claimed neighborizers are actually neighborizers?

ika seems like a convenient lynch. I'd rather lynch MattP over him at this point.

Convenient how?
Why MattP over the other neighborizers?
And why are you still voting Mirari then?

Convenient in that his play style is so incredibly scummy that if he flipped town it would be hard to blame anyone for voting him. Mollie wasn't a strong town read or anything, but based on what I've seen so far, I don't think scum-ika would come in and post so contrary to the site's norm.

Whiskers and havingfitz are solid town reads. MattP is the odd one out in the neighborizers.

I'm voting Mirari because switching to MattP at this point doesn't change anything. Instead of 2:1 Mirari:MattP, we'd have 1:2. And I believe in Mirari-scum. Plus I kind of like the idea of having the neighborizers target one another in a circle. It doesn't interfere with Mala's results and it lets them sort one another. That works best if we let them all live to the night phase.

[penguin_alien]

If the neighborizers will work with one another to self-sort, I'll leave MattP alone for today.

ika, what are your reads, and why shouldn't you be lynched?

[penguin_alien]

I'm well aware that blatantly asking ika to explain why he shouldn't be lynched is scummy. But I'm not interested in mislynching a VI without trying to get him to play a semblance of the game we play here.

I believe I'm at L-2; given that it's the weekend and we may not get the deadline extension, I"ll full claim upon request.

[penguin_alien]

At this point I don't give a rat's ass if you think I'm scummy, mostly because given the way this game has gone I can wait fifteen minutes and your opinion will have changed.

[penguin_alien]

...because I'm not interested in seeing a day that's 106 pages long boil down to a utility lynch. OK then.

[penguin_alien]

...mollie was obvscum, yet there isn't a wagon on her until well after she replaces out. Mm-hm.

Since you have all the answers, how do you think the claimed neighborizers should use their abilities?

So you think a townie's first goal should be self-preservation. Interesting. Sure, if it comes down to me or him or no-lynch, I'll vote him. Doesn't mean I'm willing to vote him unquestioningly, especially when we don't know yet if we have an extension.

[penguin_alien]

we don't know yet if we have an extension.

Except we do.

Deadline extension has two votes.

So working under the assumption that we don't have an extension, if you want a claim out of me I'd suggest you ask for it. I'm heading out for a few hours, but I'll be around this afternoon.

[penguin_alien]

Screw it, I'll claim. Poseidon, 2-shot commuter: flavor justification is that I spend time out of range of others via being in the water. As such, Mala is welcome to check me any night through N3 and based on claims made up to this point, I will show up as not having a QT. This is another reason I think the 'finding multiple virgins' thing is likely a red herring, as I suspect there are multiple mechanisms in place to make neighborizing less straightforward than it might otherwise be.

For that matter, anyone's welcome to target me with anything these first two nights, and you'll get zilch for results/effects.

As far as people defending me, nothing's coming to mind that makes me think 'at least someone isn't being an idiot.' I seem to recall GG, shos, and havingfitz not thinking much of arguments made against me, and I'd toss you (Whiskers) in that pile based on your last post.

UNVOTE: Mirari

Would love to know how Wisdom justifies calling mollie obvscum when he's voted her this day phase for all of thirty minutes:

Spoiler: Wisdom's posts from the time he was voting mollie

mollie, listen here.
If you are town, snap out of it

right now

, leave Whiskers aside, and start scumhunting and commenting on the things that are happening (shos, penguing, etc). It's just a personality trait of his and most certainly NOT something personal with you. So drop it now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mollie


@Whiskers
In that case I apologize but I cannot help you. You have eyes, read and judge for yourself. Five people agree that shos' play does not make sense with a town mindset. They see what I see. You don't see it? That's fine. But don't expect me to do things I dislike, like making cases and bullshit. The best I can do is interact with him so that everyone can see how scummy he is. Like now, he was forced to produce a penguin scumread out of nowhere - if you look at his ISO, he was defending her in the beginning.

So, tl;dr, deal with it.

goddamnit mollie why are you doing this? its not fucking personal, stop it. It's like Sakura arguing that I have something personal with her.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: shos

There are a couple in between there, but overall, that's the extent of his interest in a mollie wagon prior to ika replacing in, at least to the degree that he was willing to vote for it, which seems to be the criterion he's using to determine if someone's willing to lynch a player.

[penguin_alien]

And yet he called Mala the most scummy at the end of it. I'm actually not sure at this point if there's anyone he hasn't called scum, and I'm not inclined to swallow that ika's slot is suddenly guaranteed scum to the point where wanting more information from it if possible is futile.

P-edit: no kidding. Entire games can be played successfully in that number of posts.

[penguin_alien]

Are you agreeing with him that mollie was obvscum?

[penguin_alien]

Mirari, I agree that Wisdom is town, but not due to post count. If you're so inclined, go check out NY 161 where scum spam-posted like crazy for town cred and rode it to a straightforward victory.

Desperado, whatever you convinced Wisdom of WRT mollie obviously didn't stick for either of you at the time. But your case was: that town-mollie wouldn't be pushing Whiskers in the way she did. That town-mollie wouldn't join bad wagons on Nacho/ooba/Whiskers. This isn't the town-mollie you know from hydraing with her. mollie being associated with me and then with shos makes her scum. And then...it goes off into Mala/MattP/Mirari.

It's not the worst case I've heard this game, but the only part of it that I'm inclined to take seriously is your gut read based off of working with town-mollie in a hydra.

[penguin_alien]

At this point not being specific about the number of shots I have is unlikely to end well. And the point is that unless you seriously think I'm a scum commuter I won't show up as having a QT.

You say more important stuff came up--but you say you saw obvscum-Mollie, and you didn't go back to that after Mala's claim. Maybe you're right about mollie-ika, but much as I like the people on the wagon, I don't have a good vibe about the way people leaped on there.

[penguin_alien]

So Wisdom, everyone posts bullshit except you? That's productive. And yes, you've been scum reading mollie, but if you're willing to lynch me, who you've wavered on, over obvscum mollie-ika, your convictions are obviously lacking.

And seriously, WTF am I supposed to use to gauge your level of conviction? You're a serial-tunnely player, but when you've scum-read most of the game, figuring out what's real and what's not from you is a giant headache.

I still don't like Mirari, and the sudden synchronicity between Mirari-ooba when they were called out on it leaves me uneasy. If there's scum in the neighbors my money's on MattP. Nacho passively pushing my mislynch screams /in-vitational 12 to me. I expect Nacho to be more interested in actually getting an accurate read on me in situations where he truly thinks I'm scum.

ika isn't a town read at this point.

Town reads are Whiskers, shos, GG, havingfitz. Wisdom's town, but he needs to learn to chill, and if he succeeds in getting me mislynched, I expect him to majorly recalibrate next day phase. Desperado, probably my weakest town read of the bunch right now.

Mala, I really don't know. The claim is town, but this isn't the Mala I've played with as town. I don't know what it is exactly. Y'all can sort her out over time though.

P-edit: Desperado, maybe I'm not being clear. I can avoid being neighborized N1. If Mala says she wants to check me N2, I won't commute, and because I won't be neighborized N1, I'll be cleared N2. If she doesn't want to check me N2, I'll commute then, and she can check me N3.

VOTE: ika

I invite Desperado and Wisdom to put their money where their mouths are.

[penguin_alien]

Why do you actually think I'm scum?

[penguin_alien]

So because I wasn't eager to lynch ika when according to you townies should put self-preservation above all else? When my town game has very little to do with self-preservation?

Extrapolating from there, I assume you have me as scum with mollie-ika. I've claimed a role that's pretty useless for scum and guaranteed that I can be cleared by a QT cop N2 or N3, said cop's choice. What's the opportunity cost of lynching ika? If he flips scum, I eat crow and likely get lynched tomorrow. Hell, lynch ika, and if he flips scum I'll stick around to be available to vig shots if we have them.

[penguin_alien]

Desperado, I didn't vote ika before because I wanted more information from him directly. That's pretty well shot to hell now.

Question to you: I was in minimal danger of being lynched until I challenged the ika wagon. It's true that I don't bus as scum, but unless you think I'm scum with ika and he has some massively awesome scum role, why would I blatantly interrupt the wagon? God knows scum-me learned my lesson on that count in NY 164 WRT thezmon. And if you think I threw myself in the line of fire to protect him as a teammate with a better role, you would want him lynched over me.

P-edit: what the hell? You think I'm scum and ika's not now?

[penguin_alien]

OK, I'm not a total idiot as scum, and you know that quite well. What's my scum motivation to question a lynch on town-ika with deadline looming? There isn't one, full stop. I had mollie as a scum read at various times; I could have quite easily been 'persuaded' by the VIness of ika's posts in conjunction with that. No need to take responsibility, and given the shit people have been giving me for keeping my vote on Mirari, it would have been a heck of a lot easier to acquiesce.

P-edit: I didn't have high hopes for getting info out of ika, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in trying.

[penguin_alien]

We had almost a full day with the possibility of another day beyond that. It wasn't time to panic.

Being town is darn well not about self-preservation.

[penguin_alien]

Enough town cred to outweigh having been the only other viable wagon? Please.

[penguin_alien]

Sure, Wisdom, suddenly things are oh-so-clear to you. I suppose even broken clocks are right twice a day.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't. And yes, based on the vote count at the time, if ika was lynched, I would have been the only other person with a significant part of the player base voting for me.

[penguin_alien]

And what would you like me to say, Mirari? I may as well make your day while I'm at it, given that I hope this town puts the screws to you when I flip town.

I didn't vote ika AT THAT TIME. Heaven forbid I ask a simple question, given that ika wasn't engaging well with people who were actively voting him.

[penguin_alien]

How long was I supposed to question the validity of the wagon, exactly? I'll take notes so that I can better conform to your ideal town player next time this kind of crap wagon comes up.

[penguin_alien]

Screw it, I'm off to make Sunday dinner. I hope you both choke on my town flip.

[penguin_alien]

Nice game, scum, and thanks to Elyse for the modding!