Mini 408 - EXiLE Mafia, MOD ABANDONED

[JDodge]

I nominated cheesfan for being first and Jdodge for starting with a J.

I nominated Raging Rabbit for being alliterative...

As a side note, Hi Maz! I promise I won't be a

total moron

this game!

[JDodge]

Why would Maz care? <.<
I nommed Cheese and Maz. Mostly because I'm scared of them.

Because I was the

worst cop ever

in a newbie game with him.

Tsk, tsk. I didn't nominate only you, RR. I just prefer not to say my other nomination as it is not relevant.

[JDodge]

Why would Maz care? <.<
I nommed Cheese and Maz. Mostly because I'm scared of them.

Because I was the

worst cop ever

in a newbie game with him.

Tsk, tsk. I didn't nominate only you, RR.

I just prefer not to say my other nomination as it is not relevant.

umm?

Irrelevant as in that person didn't get nominated. Sorry for not being clear about that.

I feel that the only people who need to share their nominations are those who either nominated someone who's up for lynch, or got NK'd.

[JDodge]

Irrelevant as in that person didn't get nominated. Sorry for not being clear about that.

I feel that the only people who need to share their nominations are those who either nominated someone who's up for lynch, or got NK'd.

I was originally being sarcastic, but this is really quite weird.

I personally don't see any real use in sharing your nomination of

anyone

, since I don't think we can learn anything from it atm. However, I'm also sure sharing your nominations can't hurt the town in any way, so I'm willing to play along just for the heck of it. I really don't see what makes you think it's only useful to share your "popular" nominees, what sets them apart from the other ones?

I think you shouldn't be hiding information from the town, since even though it's a really neglectible it still makes you look a tiny bit scummy.[/i]

I thought about this, actually, and thought it might be better for the town if we did share all of our nominations; my original theory didn't make much sense to me either after I'd thought about it for a while.

I also nominated Maz Medias for the same reason as RR: alliteration.

[JDodge]

I think it is a really bad idea to be telling everyone who we are nominating.

Why?

[JDodge]

Sidenote: Considering we have a skunk, a dog, a bunny, and harry potter nominated, I'm wondering if this island is a refuge or an insane asylum. >.>

ARGH

Its NOT harry potter

Its John lennon

*breaks into tears*

# of games I've been in, in which Cheesefan's avatar has been mistaken for Harry Potter: 2

[JDodge]

I want to ask again what we gain from full revelation of nominations? All I see happening is the scum jumping on to any overlaps in voting and using that to maneuver us towards a mislynch.

I dunno, but why the fuck do you care? We've got absolutely nothing to lose...

IGMEOY: MM

.

Wrong. Us, the nominated, have nothing to lose. Everyone else does.

[JDodge]

Wrong. Us, the nominated, have nothing to lose. Everyone else does.

What exactly would that be?

Think about it.

There's nothing to lose for us because we've, in a way, already lost; the people who'll get nominated are those who have given a reason to be nominated. And the only people who we need to get a lot of info out of are the ones who we can get rid of. So, with a lack of info on those who aren't in trouble at the moment, people will resort to others.

The town has everything to lose due to the simple fact that they could, even without noticing, play out a scenario in which the only who are in danger are those who start in danger.

This can be avoided by just playing normally, ignoring the special mechanics except for voting and nominations.

I could be totally wrong about this theory, though. Time will tell.

[JDodge]

IGMEOY: I've Got My Eye On You.

FoS: Raging Rabbit

for being angry with Maz for not sharing his nominations when he already did. You might try reading people's posts.

[JDodge]

I've been doing that quite a lot if you haven't noticed how active I am, just didn't think it worth my time to doublecheck if he shared his nominations since his logic clearly implies he shouldn't have.

Logic would imply that you would look at facts beforehand.

I actually suspect him more now that I've realized my mistake, since his course of action is ideal for scum - first he shares his nominations on the spot so he won't get any bad attention for not being helpful, than he uses lameass logic to try to convice others not to share theirs so the town won't be able to gain any information (the only way to possibly figure out who lied is to have everyone's nomination accounted for, except obviously poor Firecoal).

Without all of the facts, anyone can manipulate the results to make it look like someone is scum. We would need to know exactly who everyone nominated.

[JDodge]

Without all of the facts, anyone can manipulate the results to make it look like someone is scum. We would need to know exactly who everyone nominated.

But why would anyone pro town

want

to manipulate the results?[/quote]

We need to know who everyone nominated, including Fircoal, in order to come to a conclusion.

Anyone can allocate those two nominating votes that Fircoal had to where they wish in order to change any information we'd get out of it.

[JDodge]

We need to know who everyone nominated, including Fircoal, in order to come to a conclusion.

Anyone can allocate those two nominating votes that Fircoal had to where they wish in order to change any information we'd get out of it.

That indeed makes it a lot more difficult for us to gain information from this, but Skruffs seems to know how and again it just doesn't hurt us in any way.

Except for potentially set up an innocent for a lynch.

[JDodge]

Erm guys..
*points to romanus*
suspicious much?

Only with the potential dual votes on Raging Rabbit.

Mod:

Can someone use both of their nominating votes on the same person?

[JDodge]

I missed the "different" part.

[JDodge]

Yellow bounder holds the power. TeEELLLLL UUUUS..
Side note, we must have a 4-way tie between the four nominees.

Not exactly. We could have 1 leader + a 3-way tie.

[JDodge]

Ooooh! I want to FoS someone too! Somebody, do something scummy!

I didn't bother to check because I figured you wouldn't cotradict yourself this obviously without even saying you changed your mind, and when I realized you did do it made me suspect you that much more. You are so clutching at straws here.

You're clutching at straws, too. Assumption is a fatal flaw in any arguement.

I can tell you're good with numbers, that's exactly why I want to keep you around. The general conseous (which I agree with) seems to be that you're the most valuable player atm, and no way are we going to lynch you in the case of a random lynch. That makes me wonder why you keep suggesting to sacrifice yourself when you know we'll never take you up on it, which could very well be a scummy attempt to further prove your innocence by showing us how willing you are to be lynched.

I'm good with numbers too. That would be relevant if numbers actually mattered in this situation.

[JDodge]

I'm good with numbers too. That would be relevant if numbers actually mattered in this situation.

I'm ok with them too, and pretty sure Skruff's better than either of us. And of course numbers matter here. Like, duh...

Give me one example of how numbers help this situation.

This setup is misleading; it's not about deducing information from nominations, it's about the town working as a collective towards a favorable outcome.

[JDodge]

This setup is misleading; it's not about deducing information from nominations, it's about the town working as a collective towards a favorable outcome.

Ignoring information we could easily gain from nomination patterns and essentially turning this game into Limited Lynch Mafia would really make the scum's day.

I might also point out that The Town Working as a Collective Towards a Favorable Outcome, while certainly an admirable thing for any Communist party to say, isn't an actual strategy.

Information we could easily gain from nomination patterns is not always correct.

Glad you think I'm a communist. I've been working hard on that.

[JDodge]

Information we could easily gain from nomination patterns is not always correct.

But

additional info doesn't hurt us in any way

. I'm getting tired of saying that.

Additional info can be misleading

.

Glad you think I'm a communist. I've been working hard on that.

That'd probably explain what you're doing on an abandoned island. Mod, do I get bonus points for revealing his secret?

No, I think it was the extreme Libertarianism that caused that.

[JDodge]

Why can't I be a Communist Libertarian? Oh wait, contradictory... Right...

[JDodge]

@Raging Rabbit: What specifically do you find unlogical about JDodge? To me, his posts seem objective and non-commital.

My sincere apologies for not being bothered to check back right now. A not necessarily comprehensive list:

First of all, the "let's make this game Limited Lynch Mafia, we can't possibly risk mislynching" argument he's been pushing pretty hard sucks bad and hurts the town. Second, I strongly dislike his ad homini-cious "There's just obviously something

WRONG

about Raging Rabbit, can't you people see it?!" post. Third, I dislike the contradiciton between his earlier sharing his nominations to his current "no misleading info" BS - while it's certainly possible for people the change their minds, I just don't get why he never bothered to say he's changed his mind IIRC, and his earlier attack on me for missing his contradicition makes no sense.

I'm worried that people might use the information incorrectly. What we stand to lose from people manipulating the results to their favor outweighs what we can gain from having said info.

I changed my mind; is that illegal now?

Why are you asserting that there is a general consesus that Skruffs is useful?

Again I'm not gonna check back atm, but I seem to recall quite a few people other than me commenting on Skruffs' pro-townishness. Also, I just think that unless his way of discerning information from the nominations list proves a complete dud, he's pretty objectively the most useful player atm.

I can't agree that any player is any more useful than the other at the moment.

[JDodge]

I'm worried that people might use the information incorrectly. What we stand to lose from people manipulating the results to their favor outweighs what we can gain from having said info.

I changed my mind; is that illegal now?

Damn, I'm such an idiot.

My former list refers to MM, not JDodge

. I find it odd you didn't notice that yourself, though.

Ghyrt luv, about JDodge - it's just a stream of possibly-town-but-nonetheless-wrong stuff. He's not that much below neutral in my book, I just wanted to say which way I was leaning.

I would say the same about everything you've said thus far.

I can't agree that any player is any more useful than the other at the moment.

I would say the math whizz.

I would say that the math will be misleading and easily manipulated.

[JDodge]

I would say the same about everything you've said thus far.

I would say you should probably back that up somehow.

I would say you should back up your claims as well.

[JDodge]

I'd say I already have.

As have I.

Of course, neither of us can prove anything on this as it's a difference of opinion as opposed to difference of fact at the moment.

[JDodge]

I do like to believe I'm capable of stopping said "winding convos" when they really aren't going anywhere, for example my current lack of reply to JDodge or the current situation in another game of ours with somone whose name rhymes with Magneto.

Also, don't you find me amusing anymore?!

The first part is somewhat true.

Don't reference ongoing games.

I don't find you amusing anymore either.

[JDodge]

It can; when you have 2-3 people you think are scum, you only want those 2-3 people to be on the block.

[JDodge]

I believe he means where we're trying to figure out his alignment by figuring out whether or not his role would be more balanced as town or scum.

[JDodge]

I believe he means where we're trying to figure out his alignment by figuring out whether or not his role would be more balanced as town or scum.

Oh. That's not outguessing anyone, then, it'd be much stronger in hands of mafia. Period. Quite a misrepresentation, too.

I'm sorry, can you say that again? I can't see what you're saying.

[JDodge]

I believe he means where we're trying to figure out his alignment by figuring out whether or not his role would be more balanced as town or scum.

Oh. That's not outguessing anyone, then, it'd be much stronger in hands of mafia. Period. Quite a misrepresentation, too.

*is confused*

2nd guessing the mod means assuming the mod would have done something a particular way e.g. "there's a doc in this game so there must be a cop". Making assumptions about Romanus's role is 2nd guessing the mod, we have no way of knowing if the mod would have given it to a pro town player or to a scum player. You can't say for sure what the mod would do.

QFT!

[JDodge]

Of course! That's like saying that because a roleblocker is more often a scum ability than a town ability, that said roleblocker

must

be scum!

[JDodge]

Of course! That's like saying that because a roleblocker is more often a scum ability than a town ability, that said roleblocker

must

be scum!

It's somewhat like that, yes, only the difference is way, way bigger, Romanus treats himself as a power role rather than a drawback which it sorta is if he's really pro town, and I have other reasons for finding him suspicious if you'll bother reading back.

It's still an assumption. Just because something is more likely to be, doesn't mean it must be.

Just like you did with Maz's nominations earlier.

[JDodge]

It's still an assumption. Just because something is more likely to be, doesn't mean it must be.

In a game of limited information, assumptions are somewhat necessary.

Just like you did with Maz's nominations earlier.

While I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about, MM's earlier logic sucked.

Arguements based on assumption are unimportant.

You're making assumptions. That's what I mean.

Your earlier logic sucked. Maz changed his mind, you ignored fact based on

assumptions

.

[JDodge]

MM changed his mind without mentioning he did, I made the logical assumption he's following his own logic. It was a mistake. It doens't have any terrible consequences, I realized I mistook him and conceded the point. What I don't like is how MM (and now yourself) made such a big fucking deal about it. Even the Infallible RagingRabbit can make mistakes, y'know. I don't see what makes this a scumtell, are scum more likely to miss that kind of thing when it's blatantly obvious someone's gonna pick them out on it?

No, but ignoring the facts is.

You have complained about me misrepresenting you; you have no qualms about doing the same to other people on assumptions.

[JDodge]

Meaningless FOS: Jack, for bad logic and misrepresenting my post.

Oh. That's not outguessing anyone, then, it'd be much stronger in hands of mafia. Period. Quite a misrepresentation, too.

[JDodge]

This has gone to the point where it is no longer relevant to the situation. I would recommend we get back to hunting scum as opposed to beating a dead horse.

[JDodge]

Our infallible mod is obviously trying to imply something...

err, what?

I'm sure it's just another hare-brained scheme based on what he thinks the mod would do.

It's actually probably just a typo-like thing.

[JDodge]

Infomation is always good, because any information you gain in a mafia game (unless the mod is screwing with you), you take into account any scum that may be influencing the information, or trying to stop it, probably in this case. Good enough for me, for a Vote: JDodge.

It could be that I'm trying to keep people from basing their entire case on nominations.

[JDodge]

hare-brained

Pun intended?

Yep.

[JDodge]

Side note : POwer roles relevant to nominations
It's possible there are other power roles out there, too - everyone saying who they nominated clears most possibilities, though, like a nomination blocker, a nomination 'switcher'. There could be a nomination cop. Well hold on, there could be a blocker or switcher; if there is, they targetted someone who didn't nominate one of the current nominees.

And that is

exactly

why I was saying that this information could be misleading.

Glad someone gets it.

[JDodge]

Even in a normal mafia game with a cop, you should take into account Guilty Townies, Godfather immunity, and insanity. There is always false information, which you combine from assments of play styles (which contains false information because there are scum pretending to be town).

By your logic, you can't decide a lynch based on information such as scum tells, because some of the information could be false.

I'm not saying that we completely ignore scumtells and the like; I'm just saying that any information derived from nominations have enough variables to be completely false.

[JDodge]

This kind of analysis is not going to help us at all. It would be easy for scum to say they nominated fircoal. They could say they nominated whoever they liked, it if doesn't add up in the end we have no way of knowing who lied about it. Your assuming maz is innocent and dean and I are scum off of this?

This is what I've been saying all along...

[JDodge]

It all comes down to this; if we're going to claim nominations every day, do you really think scum would be stupid enough to all go after the same people?

[JDodge]

If we all vote for the same two people, we'll end up with two people on the block. Isn't that, I don't know, a bad thing?

[JDodge]

Dang! This set-up really favors scum.

Anyway, your logic makes sense... sort of; but think about it this way:

1) If we nominate 2 people (which the town can easily force to happen) we get screwed as you explained.

2)If we try to nominate 3 people, then we have to delegate votes, and it would be very easy for scum to force a situation where 2 town get nominated. (See previous item)

3) If we try to nominate 4+ people, scum essentially picks who gets nominated.

The more nominations we make (or the more randomly we nominate), the higher chances scum have of choosing who gets nominated. The only way we can win (which kind of sucks), is if we vote on who is scummiest before night and make sure they get nominated. Even though option 1 is dangerous, its the only way we can be guaranteed (excepting power roles, of course) to lynch who we want. If we don't, scum will have better odds than town in getting who they want onto the block.

2 is a terrible choice. 3 is only slightly better.

I hate it when I'm wrong on things like this.

[JDodge]

Can't we get 4 people nominated tomorrow?

ab ab ad

bc bc bd

ac ac cd

dd <--romanus

They all have 5. Then if "a" doesn't get nominated we'll know one of those people is scum.

Please see option 3.

[JDodge]

How exactly does scum pick? We can assign who nom's who beforehand.

Because that won't work due to a few too many variables.

[JDodge]

Arggggggg

The graph helps. (Period)
Right now we have to be carfule how we use it, as the game progresess the info from the day one noms will be very helpfu.
Can I get that picture as my avatar? I LOVE it.
Skruffs argument was so Damn good I wanted to believe it over my Role PM, and nominate myself for being scum.

We need to figure out noms and vote. This day needs to get a little close to ending.
I say Nominate Ghryt and Jack. Jack because of the graph. Ghryt because he is scum. Romanus and Maz can wait.

Vote: cheesefan

His not tyrying to defend himself has me thinking he is the best one out of the current noms. And the graph has me atm thinking Jdodge is town.

Hello? You disagree with every arguement I've set forth, and you're voting for

Cheesefan

? Isn't that a bit counter-intuitive?

Why nominate Ghyrt? Why nominate Jack?

[JDodge]

RR, your latest suggestion is once more blasted by the presence of power roles, or even simple mafia cunning. I'm standing by my position that revealing nominations is akin to planning night actions, which is always a bad plan in a normal game...

I think it's safe to say the balance of 7-6-6 is strong enough to be safe from any scum tampering it. I also think it's much safer than leaving everything to chance, which only goes to make it easier for the mafia to spoil our plans.

Not exactly.

You assume that all scum will nominate the same person.

[JDodge]

How else could they interfere?

Easy. The town can delegate who votes for whom amongst themselves during the day.

The scum can delegate who votes for whom amongst themselves during the night

with no way of the town knowing who's doing what

.

You cannot assume they'll vote as a block.

[JDodge]

I will never agree to vote as others tell me or tell people who i am going to vote.

I will vote as i wish but provide logical reasons for doing so the next day.

I agree. It's no different than a vote during the day, and you don't make complex charts and overly complex ideas for a vote, do you?

[JDodge]

JDawg, lets try using math here:

Lets assume we lynch an innocent, worst case scenario an' all. We still have 11 people, with a maximum of 3 in a single scum group. I was an idiot before, a total of 22 nominations means an 8-7-7 split. Please explain how the scum could ever possibly fuck up such a thing under anything but the most extreme circumstances. If you choose to assume such circustances, please explain how the 3 nominee system makes it easier for them to fuck up than just randomizing everything.

Please don't answer this with general statements, I really feel this warrants actual math.

Let's call those votes A, B, and C.

You have 8 "A"s, 7 "B"s, 7 "C"s.

Now, let's assume for the sake of this that the three mafia members happen to get AB, AC, and BC. They could all switch to AB, which would cause this:

9 As,
8 Bs,
5 Cs.

Get it?

[JDodge]

The best plan in this situation is to not have a plan. Any plan we have will not end well.

[JDodge]

The best plan in this situation is to not have a plan. Any plan we have will not end well.

That is

never

the right line of thinking. Even if we choose to play it totally random, we should have a good rationale for doing so.

What? It's not the right line of thinking... unless it is? That makes no sense.

[JDodge]

The best plan in this situation is to not have a plan. Any plan we have will not end well.

You're not getting me here. Right now you and our Scottish friend here are basically saying "lets play it random because it's the simplest, probably also the most intuitive approach". I say, if we ever decide to play it random, it should

not

be done for these reasons but because we come to an informed decision that it

is

the best approach, not only the simplest. I personally think my 3 nominees system is the less dangerous course of action.

You assume too much. I'm not saying play it random, I'm saying play it without a preset plan for who nominates who.

[JDodge]

You assume too much. I'm not saying play it random, I'm saying play it without a preset plan for who nominates who.

You're saying that because it's the simplest/most intuitive, not because you have some sort of mathematical proof that it's better than my plan.

I'm saying that because a plan will corrupt too easily, and you'll end up with the scum steering the town around, that no plan would be better than not having one.

[JDodge]

I'm saying that because a plan will corrupt too easily, and you'll end up with the scum steering the town around, that no plan would be better than not having one.

A'ight, please show me what makes "anarchy" less easily corrupted than my plan.

I already showed you my proof. Remember when you asked for a mathematical reason as to why your plan does not work? There's my proof.

[JDodge]

I refuse to abide by someone telling me how to use my nominations.

[JDodge]

I refuse to abide by someone telling me how to use my nominations.

You're thinking very anti-town, then.

You're thinking of ways to lead us into a trap.

[JDodge]

I refuse to abide by someone telling me how to use my nominations.

You're thinking very anti-town, then.

You're thinking of ways to lead us into a trap.

Show me what makes me wrong, then, instead of making empty statements.

Already have.

[JDodge]

JDawg, lets try using math here:

Lets assume we lynch an innocent, worst case scenario an' all. We still have 11 people, with a maximum of 3 in a single scum group. I was an idiot before, a total of 22 nominations means an 8-7-7 split. Please explain how the scum could ever possibly fuck up such a thing under anything but the most extreme circumstances. If you choose to assume such circustances, please explain how the 3 nominee system makes it easier for them to fuck up than just randomizing everything.

Please don't answer this with general statements, I really feel this warrants actual math.

Let's call those votes A, B, and C.

You have 8 "A"s, 7 "B"s, 7 "C"s.

Now, let's assume for the sake of this that the three mafia members happen to get AB, AC, and BC. They could all switch to AB, which would cause this:

9 As,
8 Bs,
5 Cs.

Get it?

I would also like you to note that I refuse to participate in this, which changes the dynamics severely. Same with anyone else who refuses.

[JDodge]

Why nightkill someone who is up for Lynch tomorrow?

No real reason. Good for us. Yay.

but since there are at least a few people who are refusing to cooperate, it isn't going to work, and is now, a moot point. Arguing about it any further is a red herring that the scum can stay out of and let us rip each other apart with.

Appeal to Group. Truth isn't democratic.

How is getting one of the more pro-town people NK'd "Good for us"?

He's right, and that isn't an Appeal to Group situation.

[JDodge]

Also i can see us now splitting into camps over this thing.

That is baaaaaaaaaaaad.

Yep. I can also see someone getting lynched because they don't agree on a nominating procedure that everyone else lays down, so they "must be scum".

[JDodge]

Let me give my interpretation:

Option 1 - Freedom

- each townie votes for whichever two guys he considers the most suspicious.

Town nominations - Only placed on those whom people themselves feel are scummy.

Mafia nominations - No way of coordinating who's on the block.

Option 2 - Government

- town decides on the 3 most suspicious guys as determined by whomever can talk the loudest to nominate a day in advance.

Town nominations - All go on the same 3 people, and said people will

always

be up for a lynch unless one gets NK'd (which still leaves 2 with chance to lynch an innocent based on who is right in the predetermination).

Mafia - Can help manipulate the nominations in a different way, by tricking the town into choosing the wrong three people.

[JDodge]

Whoops. Hit submit before I was finished.

The way I look at it, 1 is true democracy. 2 is tyranny-by-majority.

[JDodge]

The way I look at it, 1 is true democracy. 2 is tyranny-by-majority.

How is this "tyranny-by-majority" different from the usual lynching system, though?

Because nobody forces you to vote for someone.

[JDodge]

Because nobody forces you to vote for someone.

But you eventually often have to

compromise

in order to have a majority.

But nobody

forces

you to.

[JDodge]

I equate it to the arguement between Libertarianism and Authoritarianism.

[JDodge]

I equate it to the arguement between Libertarianism and Authoritarianism.

I'm not gonna get into a political debate here. Try to think about this strategically, though, it's not about life philosophies. Do you also disagree it'd be the most efficient town strategy, or just don't want to have your "liberty" taken from you? If you also disagree, please explain why.

No, it's more of a matter that freedom/Libertarianism, while more disorganized, has less of a chance of being corrupt than government/Authoritarianism.

[JDodge]

I can agree with cheesefan on this one; you cannot call me town and Cheesefan scum when we're advocating the same position.

[JDodge]

Why don't we each post a list of who we think is scummiest? It might help us figure out what to do.

[JDodge]

I'm curious why cheesefan is considered suspicios? I know it's been said before but, for the sake of argument, can you say again why you are voting for him and not me or rabbit?

Why are you voting for yourself? You refuse to explain your vote, yet you ask for an explanation from someone else?

[JDodge]

Why are you answering Dean's question for him?

I didn't; I merely wanted to see your reasoning.

[JDodge]

MOD:

I think we need a deadline because we're twenty pages in with discussion being mostly circular, irrelevant, and with no definitive progress in who to lynch. It would be nice for this day to end.

Yeah, the first thing we need is a deadline for coming up with a conclusion when we're going along just fine!

[JDodge]

GOOD POINT about cheese and jack, will have to look at that. Jack voted for cheezfan, tho - or at least says he did. Does that matter?

lol! Of course,

now

is the time to ignore the graphs evidence. You seem to use the graph to meet your own needs.

I'm also against a deadline, I need to reread before I know who I want to vote for and nominate.

See! I was right! Graphs and charts

ARE

just causing us to follow non-existant cases!

[JDodge]

What's "quasi", other than a funny word?

quasi-

1 : in some sense or degree <quasiperiodic> <quasi-judicial>
2 : resembling in some degree <quasiparticle>

[JDodge]

I will refuse to nominate whomever people want me to nominate in a fixed system and also urge everyone to only reveal any nominations that helped to put someone on the block, i.e. my initial refusal to disclose my nomination of Maz. Anything else only leads to problems down the road.

[JDodge]

MAz - now that you hae said that - the mafia have absolutely no reason to agree.
Jdodge : I'm not saying we should *force* each other to nominate people, I'm simply saying, will you agree to talk about it first? Nobody can force anyoen else (as far as I am aware) to nominate one person or another - however, talking about who you are intending to nominate and why can give us an edge.

No, it gives scum the edge.

[JDodge]

It gives town the edge.

Even if it results in a townie lynch tommorrow,

there will be a pattern, a pattern we can break.

You want a townie to be lynched tomorrow?

Let's assume that there is only one killing party in this game, and 3 mafia as is the accepted norm in a mini game.

We already have one dead today, so that leaves us at 11.

Mafia kills one, we kill a townie, that leaves nine.

Mafia kills again, that leaves 8, which essentially puts us in a lynch-or-lose situation, as if we lynch incorrectly and the mafia successfully kills, they win.

[JDodge]

God forbid anyone change who they're nominating to fit the situation.

[JDodge]

You are avoiding the meat of what I'm saying and picking on the seasoning.
PEople can change their nominations if they won't - that's fine. Just rememeber that three people ARE going to be workign together to get me, you, and everyone else in this gamge killed. If you want to play the lone wolf that's fine but don't be surprised if you are back UP here tommorrow for being anti-town today.

I don't care if I'm back up here tomorrow or not. I'm actually finding I play much better when under pressure.

Anyone who thinks I'm being anti-town today is not reading what I'm saying.

You admit that revealing nominations will help scum; you also say that my plan will help scum. So helping scum is pretty much a moot point here.

[JDodge]

Vote: Skruffs

.

That is the most retarded plan I have ever heard. Splitting the game into warring factions is even more terrible than telling the mafia our plans beforehand.

[JDodge]

Every single post I've made, you've misinterpreted, misconstrued, and ignored.
I'm trying to get everyone to AGREE to help each other and you think that means I'm

splitting us up

??? How???

By deciding to not look for scummy people, but for people who disagree with you.

Lemme tell you what it looks like, to me, will happen -
out of everyone in this game, a few people will vote for maz, a few people will vote for dean, a few will vote for RR, a few will vote for jack, and the romanus will probably get killed, which a few people will also be voting for. Mafia will be free to peg three votes each on whoever they want - iof they are smart, they will nominate a scummy-acting townie and a very pro-town acting townie, and tommorrow it won't matter who we lynch, they'll still win.

But they won't know who's going for who. There is a better chance of mafia screwing up nominations if they're set in stone beforehand.

Do you really think that the town is going to

unanimously

decide to nominate scum withOUT talking about it?

DO YOU, REALLY???

Over-reacting much?

I never said that I thought we would all unanimously decide to nominate scum.

[JDodge]

ummmm, if you guys would shut up about how we should talk about scum and actually talk about who is scum, rather than voting for someone simply for disagree on this stupid shit, then maybe, just maybe the scum would have something to fear.

Yes! Let's not talk about something actually relevant that is creating discussion that will help us figure out who is scummy and who isn't, let's pull arguements out of thin air!

Almost all we have to go on is nominations and the discussion that has stemmed from them; anything else is based on lurking, which in and of itself is not really that incriminating.

[JDodge]

JDodge - saying that scum won't be able to screw with nominations because "they won't know who's going for who." Is

flawed

, because scum don't have to KNOW who's going for who. And

neither will we

, because we will all be randomly nominating whoever we want. So their three votes (added on to any of the townies) will get anyone they want nominated. Basically advocating a secret nomination insures that scum doesn't HAVE to everyone else is nominating, because they can nominate anyone they want, enmasse, and then lie about it the next day.

*Maz* understands this, that's why he's calling it *bullshit*.

But you *don't* because he was calling what you said *bullshit*.

[JDodge]

Maz was voting RR for advocating teamwork, he directed attention at Dead for advocating teamwork, and now he's happily voting me for advocating teamwork. Why?

I'd like to point your attention to any earlier quote by you....

Every single post I've made, you've misinterpreted, misconstrued, and ignored.

Because this is what you're now doing to me and it seems you are now trying to do to Maz.

[JDodge]

Man I thought TCS was town, but the proxy to Maz looks so bad. I still like how no votes have really been cast on who to lynch today.
I'm still certain Maz and ghryt are mafia.

I have. You vote because you think someone's scum, not because they won't agree to your plan.

[JDodge]

I posted Maz's quotes and how they are flawed - show how my arguments are flawed. THAT is what is standard about this game - we can debate. Let's do so. Just voting to silence a voice you don't agree with... is that really what democratism is about?

Hahahahaha! That gave me a good laugh. You're saying I'm voting to silence a voice I don't agree with, when you've said you're going to vote for people you don't agree with?

[JDodge]

The amount of scum is really starting to grow in this game. Maz I am flat out voting you for everything I can until you are dead. WORKING ALONE HELPS MAFIA!! yes it's possible that the could still manipulate the noms,but only a little, THE TOWN WOULD STILL GET TWO OR AT LEAST ONE OF THE NOMS THEY WANT UP ON THE BLOCK.

Maz you are scum, you are scum, you are scum. I so can't wait to get you and Ghyrt up there.

Why Maz and Ghyrt? Why not me? I've been pushing the same position, why am I any different?

[JDodge]

I"m past advocating we all work together, however, apart from maz not agreeing to nominate, i think he's playign a very under-the-radar game in only criticizing people who are on the chopping block. His arguments are appeals to emotion with no apparent solid basis behind it. I'm not going to just let him say whatever he wants and not try to hold him to it.

Since when does under-the-radar mean "Posts almost every day"?

If you want under-the-radar, look at yellowbounder who has a grand total of 3 posts in the game and hasn't posted since Feb 20th.

[JDodge]

Are you so deluded as to believe that anyone disagreeing with you must be anti-town?

Oooh! Pick me! Pick me!

I am not going to nominate lurkers, myself, though that theory would generally be a good one -

I'm going to go all fascist

and say we should nominate people who are refusing to cooperate with everyone else. Not only does it put a bigger target on all fo the cooperators backs - because mafia know that if they keep uncooperative townies around they'll have more control over the game - btu it also makes it less possible to get people to slip up in why they want to nominate people, etc.

Is this the answer?

[JDodge]

Ahahaha! You finally showed me the major flaw in the three person system!

Say you have 5A, 4B, and 4C.

Let's say the mafia have one each of AB, AC and BC.

They all switch to DE, which makes it 3A, 2B, 2C, 3D, 3E.

They NK A.

You have D and E nominated.

[JDodge]

The reason I want to nominate people who aren't going to cooperate is because; if they are not going to cooperate, they are going to be Helping the scum by Not helping the town in nominating who is the guiltiest. Scum will keep scummy players alive if possible, killing off those that put up the most resistance to them doing what thtey want.

You want to lynch people you imply are

innocent

in order to make your own plans come true?

Once again, terrible, terrible plan.

[JDodge]

JDodge, seriously, why are you *constantly* trying to strawman me?

I'm not. Why are you trying to get people who oppose your view lynched?

[JDodge]

JDodge - who's voting who for opposing their view?

I am voting you not because I oppose your view; rather that you have threatened to get rid of anyone who opposes your view.

[JDodge]

I want to get rid of scum. People who are anti-town are much more likely to be scum than people who are pro-town. People who want to let scum choose who gets lynched, consequently, are scum, because scum generally are not going to lynch themselves.

You were doing so good when you had Maz to guide you, too.

So you think that people who are doing what I'm doing are scum?

[JDodge]

Are you attempting to put words in my mouth, again, instead of dfealing with the facts and requests and challenges I provided you already?
You're really reaching...

Then give me actual facts as opposed to meaningless conjecture.

[JDodge]

It would require that everyone work together evenly. That's the problem; I refuse to work like that. I'm sure there are others here who will also refuse. The small list of people who will do this are scum.

Give me one good reason why scum would not want to be a part of this plan. It's easier to screw up a plan from the inside than it is from the outside.

[JDodge]

Skruffs, you are forgetting one extremely important factor in your calculations; nightkills.

[JDodge]

Mod:

No deadline, please.

Anyone who wants a deadline wants to end conversation. Ending conversation generally doesn't help the town.

[JDodge]

This setup is misleading; it's not about deducing information from nominations, it's about the town working as a collective towards a favorable outcome.

Guess who said this, way back when.

This is going to be a real shocker - opinions change!

[JDodge]

Jdodge - so, borrowing from your own style of debating, does this mean you think town should not work together towards a favorable outcome? Or jsut nto work together at all?

No, rather that while we should work together towards a favorable outcome and while the info from nominations is still misleading, I no longer believe that having a set-in-stone nomination plan is the best course of action.

Romanus - all you seem to be doing is saying I'm not talking about who I think is suspicious. I do not like the way JDodge is sitting in Maz's lap regarding his opinion of this stuff. HE originally debated with me, but when MAz 'took the handle', and started deferring to him almost immediately.

Oh, stupid schoolyard teasing. Nice to see we've become so mature over the course of this game!

[JDodge]

I'm going to

Nominate

: Whomever I feel like choosing when the time comes.

JDodge - thank you for calling me out on schoolyard teasing, I have also noticed you do not call people who agree with you out for being snide or condescending.

Because I do not find them snide or condescending.

[JDodge]

Mod:

Can we get a prod/replacement for Cheesefan?

[JDodge]

We need prods/replacements.

[JDodge]

Who ever fill ins for cheese is still going to have my vote till most likely the end of the day.

So, you won't listen to actual evidence?

[JDodge]

You realize you are the other option for me Jdodge. I can't believe there is some poeple that are giving skruffs his wish.

First things first.

I realize I'm the other option. It's a bad thing when you try and get people to stop arguing against your shaky position by saying "Well then I'll just vote for YOU INSTEAD!!!!!". Do you expect me to say "Oh goodness no, anything but that!"? No. You wouldn't. And if you would, you aren't paying attention.

I'm voting Skruffs for the way he said he was going to try and get rid of the people who disagree with his position.

[JDodge]

It really has nothing to do with me disagreeing with your position?

YES. I have been trying to tell you that for at least 5 pages now. It has to do with the fact that you said you would go after people who disagreed with you.

If he comes up town JDodge, than I know you are scum.

Oh no! Not that! Anything but that!

[JDodge]

I'm voting Skruffs for the way he said he was going to try and get rid of the people who disagree with his position.

And voting for someone for any reason other than their scumminess, is extremely scummy.

Exactly why I'm voting for Skruffs. Because he isn't focusing on getting scum, he's focusing on getting his way.

[JDodge]

So, JDodge, you are going to do almost exactly what Skruffs is doing.

Finding other reasons to lynch someone, I mean other than trying to prove that they are, in fact, scum, is a very bad thing, and if you are not scum, you are only helping them out. Too many built in excuses for a game that is going to take a bit of finesse anyway.

No, I'm NOT. HE is doing what you are describing as extremely scummy. I am voting HIM because of IT. Somehow, ME voting HIM because of IT which YOU admit as being extremely scummy makes ME extremely scummy?

[JDodge]

TCS : This isn't exactly all Day One - this is also a sort of panel discussion on hwo the game should be played.
I'm absolutely positive later days will take longer.

I so hope that's not the case.

I so hope you die tomorrow like the scum you are.

[JDodge]

Yes.
I did say that. And I knew when I did that people who wanted to discredit me would use that instead of actually discrediting my theories.
You're grasping at straws.

Of course! You didn't actually mean that, you meant to make it so that it drew attention away from your theories so we wouldn't realize how scummy you were.

[JDodge]

I find it funny that we're all just assuming one of them is scum. It's possible none of them are. But carry on.

Well, we kind of have to at the moment... I find it hard to get into the mindset of "All of these people are town, and one of them has to die".

[JDodge]

I am trying to get myself lynched. How will I 'kill off people that don't disagree with me' if I am trying to die first? That is a bit of a glitch in your theory.

Offering yourself for lynch when there's no better alternative (as you said you were doing earlies) does not equal trying to get yourself lynched.

I'm going to ask, and I want you to answer honestly.

Why do you want us to lynch you?

[JDodge]

I like your tone.. like you think I'm some squirmy fish that you've finally got hooked or something. None of your arguments hold water, though, and you've referred to the fascist quote how many times now?

At least 5, I think.

To take a quote from you, you're ignoring the meat of my statements and picking at the seasoning.

Why do you want us to lynch you?

[JDodge]

Okay then, looking back through I'm not going to believe that it's because "You don't want any innocents to get lynched", ESPECIALLY when you're coming up with grandiose plans for how the town should decide nominations.

[JDodge]

Unvote

I'm not handing you what you want on a silver platter.

[JDodge]

Why are you so scared of the big, bad, townie?

I try not to be scared of myself.

I'm not scared, either. The fact that you have to resort to schoolyard antics only reaffirms my point that you have no real case against me beyond "He doesn't agree with me!"

I just don't want to give the big, bad scum what they want.

[JDodge]

JDodge is sure I'm scum, but now he doesn't want to lynch me because that's

exactly

what scum would want. Ha!!

Never said I was sure. Just 'cause you're the most suspicious, it doesn't mean you're surely scum

You've been building a case

against

yourself and your scum buddy Maz this whole time. Nobody's going to reread day one, but if they did, they'll see it as clearly as I do.

So you suggest people will ignore fact?

I've just been pointing out the various ways you are avoiding contributing, the flaws in your theories, and teasing you for putting the bulk of your effort into trying make a townie who's

willing to be lynched to avoid giving scum an advantage

look scummy. All you ever had to say was "I agree that not all nominees should claim today, let's lynch Skruffs since he's offering to take one for the team", but you didn't - you're suspicious, you're wish-washing, you're trying to figure out what my deal is.

Yeah. I am trying to figure out what your deal is. THAT IS WHAT THIS GAME IS ABOUT. I don't think you even believe that you're that helpful to the town.

Maybe

you're afraid I'm a super saint. If you got killed for putting the hammer on me, and turned up scum, your buddy Maz wouldn't really have a chance in the morning, would he?

Maybe

, I'm afraid you're a jester or something like that.

My ride on this exile train is about over, but I've had a great time and I wish town the best of luck.

My current cause is getting people to realize how stupid it is to lynch you today.

[JDodge]

Okay; new theory.

The people who are avoiding this arguement over how the game should be played are more likely to be scum, as any death from either side will incriminate either that side or the other.

Solution; we should look to get rid of Romanus and DW tomorrow, who have been complaining loudly about said debate and likely are using the deadline thing as an excuse, and lynch Cheesefan or RR today.

[JDodge]

JDodge, I know that me saying this is going to look bad, but what you just posted is the most idiotic, illogical, etc, etc, etc, thing I have ever read in my life.

You pretty much just stated what I have been saying all along, that the scum want us to fight about tactics because it will tear the town apart, but I'm scum for suggesting it.

I am so exhausted over this game.

unvote

VOTE: Skruffs

And I could really give a damn what anybody thinks about it, and I really don't care to give any reasons for it. I'll deal with it tomorrow if it comes to that.

Damnit. I hate it when I unwittingly come to the realization that someone else is right and then not even notice it.

Guys, I'm telling you Skruffs in not the play for today...

[JDodge]

Was that supposed to be some kind of retraction?

Yes-ish.

[JDodge]

I do think we need a Cheesefan replacement and

a little activity before today ends however.

In short, this day needs to end.

Eh?

[JDodge]

I thought he was at -2...

Well, at least we'll soon see that Skruffs wasn't the play for today.

[JDodge]

Assuming my new theory is right, of course.

[JDodge]

I thought it was the hammer, and if that is the case, then good, and I'll take the heat. They should build me a statue for ending this god-forsaken day.

Lying bastard. You say we need more conversation, etc., and end the day anyways.

Romanus, DW and RR are scum.

[JDodge]

Okay; new theory.

The people who are avoiding this arguement over how the game should be played are more likely to be scum, as any death from either side will incriminate either that side or the other.

Solution; we should look to get rid of Romanus and DW tomorrow, who have been complaining loudly about said debate and likely are using the deadline thing as an excuse, and lynch Cheesefan or RR today.

I have been one of the main poeple saying we should work together. You are blatantly lying about my position. Townies Nominate Maz, ghyrt, and Jdodge.

Wrong. I'll admit that isn't the best interpretation of the theory, though. I'll give you a more in-depth explanation.

Those who do not pick a side will invariably look good because they "Tried to stop the fighting". This is a false truth.

If Skruffs turns up town, this is almost proven.

TCS, that was a bad idea.

[JDodge]

EBWODP: I meant to say "proven to me", but I got distracted while writing it.

[JDodge]

Simply put, I think that the idea that we work together to nominate is flawed. If enough of you disagree with me on this point, nominate me and lynch me.

Welcome to the club! Take a number!

I totally picked a side. I am undeniably for working together. But about page 20ish I decided argueing was getting us no where and decided to dis-ccontinue trying to push the subject.

I'm almost entirely convinced you're scum no matter what.

[JDodge]

We'll see shortly...

[JDodge]

Welcome Ranger!

vote: Romanus

[JDodge]

Checking in. Can't say I am surprised by my nomination. I want to hear some stuff from our Ghyrt replacement, so

Vote: Rangerofthenorth

I can't say I'm surprised by

any

of the nominations.

See? This is what freedom brought us; a cornucopia of opportunity.

[JDodge]

Ok.
RR is up there because poeple don't like him.
Romanus is up there because of his ability. I believe his ability to be pro-town. Mafia did not kill him because they were not afraid of his ability and hoping the town would lynch him.

Gyhrt and maz are up there because poeple believe they are scum. PERIOD.

We need to say who we nominated. There is little if any info scum can gleam from this.

I nominated gyhrt and maz.

Fos: the poeple that have already voted.

We need to decide TODAY who needs to be lynched tomorow. We need discusion not votes.

DW: Yer theory is broke. We've already established that deciding for ourselves is good, as proven by the fact that we have four people that are suspicious in different ways.

I nominated Romanus

because

of my theory right before you guys stupidly lynched Skruffs. That only helps my Romanus and DW are scumbuddies theory. We should only say we nominated someone

if

they're on the chopping block. Anything else is unhelpful.

[JDodge]

We need to know who everyone nominated. Scum voted together.
We need to figure out who they nominated so we know who not to lynch.
I'm thinking they would have put up Romanus and rr.

Good freaking god, is this terrible posting or what?

Your attempts to bluntly lead the town to a mislynch are noted.

[JDodge]

That Dean defended him so vehemently (isn't that a great word? I love that word).

RR

would

fit nicely into my Romanus-DW scumgroup theory.

[JDodge]

One small problem maz, I'm coming up town and one i do maz, I hope the town has the sense to lynch you. Assuming it dosn't happen today.

Whan was the last time rr posted.

And don't worry maz, I got my eye on your highly potential scum buddy JDodge. But I can't go after all scum at the same time, so lucky you get to be the first one to go down.

I'm going to go look at the last bit of skruffs wagon.

One small problem dean, You're going to come up scum and one you do dean, I hope the town realizes you're feeding them a line of BS. Assuming we dosn't have a vig.

And don't worry dean, I got my eyes on your highly potential scum buddies Romanus and rr. But I can't go after all scum at the same time, so lucky you get to be the second to go down.

I'm going to go repeating that I told you so, I told you so, nyah nyah I told you so.

See what I did thar?

[JDodge]

Except i'm coming up town. See i'm not in your scum group so that means I'm town. See how deductive reasoning can help you out.

Except you're coming up scum. See i'm not in your scum group so that means I'm town. See how not pulling "facts" out of you ass can help you out.

Can you give an actual arguement besides "I'm not scum! They're scum!"?

[JDodge]

EBWOP: I'll give you one guess to tell me what logical fallacy you're using in your own arguements. It starts with an "n".

[JDodge]

Damn, we lost quite a bit.

I lost my most decisive piece of evidence against DW, too.

[JDodge]

Mod:

Can we get a mass prodding? I think RR and Cheesefan left the site, so they might need replacing.

[JDodge]

Speak, damn you! Speak! And then lynch RR or Romanus!

[JDodge]

I'm thinking you should vote the actual scum. Maz and ghyrt.

I would vote the actual scum but you aren't on the block. So I'm just going with the most suspicious.

Are you ever going to give actual reasons?

[JDodge]

I think going after sombody who is probably going to get replaced is a bad ideal. I think replacements should get a chance to interact with the group before we decide whether or not they are scum. But I will have my eye on his replacement.

Ahem... Let me put this bluntly.

What sort of retarded reasoning is that? I think he's highly likely to be scum, but since he HASN'T POSTED ANYTHING, I'll be less suspicious!

Geez, I guess there's no reason for scum to post at all with that brilliant logic!

[JDodge]

I would like to point out how mariyata and jdodge are twisting what is going on.

I was asked who do I want to lynch between my top two choices. I like either one,

but chose maz because of ghyrts replacement. Him being replaced is simply the deciding tie breaker.

I would like to point out how ridiculous, irrelevant, and stupid this statement is.

Ridiculous is bolded, irrelevant is in italics, and stupid is underlined.

[JDodge]

I'm almost entirely certain that our scumgroup is DW-RR-Romanus. Who do y'all wish to lynch this evenin'?

Mod

: Vote count, please.

[JDodge]

I mean DW-RR-Romanus in order of suspicion, of course.

[JDodge]

I hope the replacments have the sense to lynch maz.

You can only vote:

Max and ghyrt: scum

Romanus: up there because of abillity. He claimed it, with no presure, he is obviously town.
RR: Poeple don't like him

At the very least.
Voting maz or ghryt will give you reads on several poeple.

Oh by the way:

Say who you nominated. Last warning.

Once again, ridiculous is in bold, irrelevant in italics, and idiotic is underlined.

Of course! If you claim without any pressure whatsoever, you must be town!

[JDodge]

Unvote

Romanus has given me enough reason to unvote.

DW, if you're so adamant that Maz or Ranger are scum, why aren't you voting for either?

[JDodge]

It seems odd that you unvote when the only thing I've said between your two most recent posts was that you have given me enough reason to unvote.

Almost as if your original vote was OMGUS.

[JDodge]

I can't read the vote count either, apparently.

[JDodge]

Hi. How are you? I'm waiting for the necessary numerous replacements of people who haven't posted in a month.

[JDodge]

And thus, it dies; peacefully into the dawn. Is it that it was never meant to be, or that it was always to be this way?

[JDodge]

Well? Just who

were

the scum, anyways?

[JDodge]

It *was* a fun debate.

Yeah.

I think it's worth noting that

both

of my theories were wrong.