Mini 1482: Castle - A Mafia Murder So Vile (GAME OVER)

[Desperado]

Vote: thenewearth

[Desperado]

Desperado, why come in and vote someone who hasn't posted when there's a whole exchange going on right above your post? Mantisdreamz, why ask if pirate mollie's in the macmollie hydra when that info is in the OP?

Because the exchange a) wasn't interesting and b) didn't appear to be serious either. If I thought it was noteworthy I would have commented on it.

[Desperado]

Why didn't you cast a vote at all if you felt that exchange was noteworthy?

[Desperado]

I don't mind macmollie's for the same reason I'm asking Mantis that question.

So the reason you don't like mine is because you aren't suspicious of thenewearth?

[Desperado]

Bert I don't think being bored is indicative of Nats' alignment. That's a bad vote with an even worse justification.

[Desperado]

Desperado, why come in and vote someone who hasn't posted when there's a whole exchange going on right above your post? Mantisdreamz, why ask if pirate mollie's in the macmollie hydra when that info is in the OP?

1) Which exchange, Mantis - Potato or Bert - Potato?
2) What about those exchanges seem interesting?
3.1) Mantis - Potato exchange was pretty much "Hi this guy scum --> No he's not --> Oh OK" So I don't really understand what's supposed to "ping" me, as well
3.2) Bert - Potato exchange was pretty much "Oh hi town --> DON'T U SAY I'M TOWN --> Why not? --> BECAUSE I VOTE YOU"

Vote: thenewearth

MUST... NOT... OMGUS...

Oh you're actually town this game. Good to know.

Unvote
Vote: Bert

[Desperado]

---

...I didn't think he'd posted because when I looked for his name in the ISO menu I was thinking 'newearth' instead of 'thenewearth' and stopped scrolling.

So are you saying you didn't care for Desperado's vote on thenewearth because you didn't think TNE had posted yet? Because you got their name wrong when looking for posts in the Activity Overview area?

Yeah, not my shining moment in reading comprehension. To elaborate, my line of thought was that a bare vote wasn't much in the way of pressuring someone to participate if that was his goal. And I thought we were starting to move past RVS, so it being totally random didn't feel right.

I've rolled scum with Newearth before in Micro 150 and wanted to judge his reaction to an early wagon because he got wagoned early D1 in then. Didn't get a wagon but his response was genuine and that one post had more pro-town motivation than his entire ISO in the Micro.

[Desperado]

Considering that AA's posted more in this single game than in all my other experiences with her combined, I'm tempted to say she's scum.

Desperado: What about Natirasha has been town so far?

Nothing really. She's null for me.

She has:

1) Self-voted, rather than voting anyone else - because that's "how she rolls"

Do you dispute that it is she rolls?

2) She comes in and makes two comments, 1 saying "I hate hydras, I'm bored" and the other saying "Arc is probably scum because she just posted more than I've seen her post in my other games." None of those posts appear to be with the intent of advancing the game along. And on top of that, to complain about the speed of the game when the game just started. Her/his last post is more of a lurker prod dodge than anything IMO.

Her last post was null. All of her posts have been null. You appear to be content to ascribe malicious intent where it might not apply and its scummy.

Is Bert always this lazy as scum?

[Desperado]

You didn't even look at HIS gender yet, and you call me lazy. *shrug*

Hey look it's scum slinging mud. How is this relevant and how does me not knowing their gender make me lazy?

The proper town response to someone claiming to be bored is to ask them why, not vote them and paint them as scum giving an excuse to lurk. If she was scum and wanted to lurk she would just...do it, like 75% of the rest of the game. You took something that was null ("I am bored.") and made it scummy ("I am giving an excuse to lurk.")

That's not building a case, it's scum painting a canvas, and it's lazy scum painting at that.

[Desperado]

arc, newearth, lynx, and fitz are all town until further notice

[Desperado]

Arc - #18
Newearth - #60
Fitz - #62
Lynx - #64

And you would ask her why she's bored because if you make an effort to engage with her, she might not be bored anymore! Which means she'll be providing more content, which means we'll be able to read her better.

Assume she's town and telling the truth about being bored. Which approach do you think is more likely to produce a positive reaction, mine or yours?

[Desperado]

I love how you say "town until further notice."

You can just backstab them later.

Lol!

Do you always tunnel like this

As opposed to what, being locked into page four reads?

I don't know, I don't keep a self-meta log. But I was scum in Micros 150 and 168 and Mini 1426, and I was town in Calvin and Hobbes and WWE Believe in the Shield.

[Desperado]

I love how you say "town until further notice."

You can just backstab them later.

Lol!

Do you always tunnel like this

As opposed to what, being locked into page four reads?

I don't know, I don't keep a self-meta log. But I was scum in Micros 150 and 168 and Mini 1426, and I was town in Calvin and Hobbes and WWE Believe in the Shield.

[Desperado]

How is finger-pointing empty? I made a fair accusation saying that she/he should be more serious about the game and not just say "this game isn't catching my interest." I've heard scum (Majiffy in Micro 189) just come in and say "this game hasn't caught our interest yet. I'll be back later"....and then come back days later when a huge portion of the day is already in the books. I have a low tolerance for that.

But the only reason you chose to finger point in Nats' direction is because she declared her boredom. Don't you think that fact by itself makes her less likely to be lurking scum than the other 6 players who haven't posted since last night? I'll ask again--if her intent was to lurk it out, as you accused her of, why didn't she just do it? Why did she unnecessarily open herself up to criticism?

[Desperado]

You presented three pieces of evidence for your vote.

1) She self-voted.
2) She said she hates hydras.
3) She said Arc might be scum because she's posted more in this game than Nat normally sees.

You contended that none of these moved the game forward.

In order:

1) Yes she did. Nats' meta will show you that she always self-votes. That means it's null. I pointed this out when you said it originally and you ignored it. I wonder why...
2) A lot of people hate hydras. Do you really think someone's opinion of hydras is alignment indicative?
3) You said this didn't move the game along, but for that to be true you'd have to assume Nat wasn't being serious about the read. Why would you assume that? I considered it scumhunting. Why do you think scumhunting is scummy?

[Desperado]

Mollie, explain fitzscum to me.

Of your nulls, lynx and arc are both town.

Can you explain why you interpreted my push on Bert as whiteknighting Nat?

[Desperado]

Why are you voting Desp, mollie?

cos I wanted to get inside his head and explore

Mollie, explain fitzscum to me.

Of your nulls, lynx and arc are both town.

Can you explain why you interpreted my push on Bert as whiteknighting Nat?

cos I am coming from a perspective in that I am town reading bert. have you ever played with him before?

Nope. What games should I be looking at? And fitzscum?

@ Arc: My read on Newearth would seem inconsistent if you skipped over the posts that explained why I was voting him.

Desperado, why come in and vote someone who hasn't posted when there's a whole exchange going on right above your post? Mantisdreamz, why ask if pirate mollie's in the macmollie hydra when that info is in the OP?

1) Which exchange, Mantis - Potato or Bert - Potato?
2) What about those exchanges seem interesting?
3.1) Mantis - Potato exchange was pretty much "Hi this guy scum --> No he's not --> Oh OK" So I don't really understand what's supposed to "ping" me, as well
3.2) Bert - Potato exchange was pretty much "Oh hi town --> DON'T U SAY I'M TOWN --> Why not? --> BECAUSE I VOTE YOU"

Vote: thenewearth

MUST... NOT... OMGUS...

Oh you're actually town this game. Good to know.

Unvote
Vote: Bert

---

...I didn't think he'd posted because when I looked for his name in the ISO menu I was thinking 'newearth' instead of 'thenewearth' and stopped scrolling.

So are you saying you didn't care for Desperado's vote on thenewearth because you didn't think TNE had posted yet? Because you got their name wrong when looking for posts in the Activity Overview area?

Yeah, not my shining moment in reading comprehension. To elaborate, my line of thought was that a bare vote wasn't much in the way of pressuring someone to participate if that was his goal. And I thought we were starting to move past RVS, so it being totally random didn't feel right.

I've rolled scum with Newearth before in Micro 150 and wanted to judge his reaction to an early wagon because he got wagoned early D1 in then. Didn't get a wagon but his response was genuine and that one post had more pro-town motivation than his entire ISO in the Micro.

Does that make more sense?

And I gave reasons for why all four of you were town. You skipped that post too.

Arc - #18
Newearth - #60
Fitz - #62
Lynx - #64

And you would ask her why she's bored because if you make an effort to engage with her, she might not be bored anymore! Which means she'll be providing more content, which means we'll be able to read her better.

Assume she's town and telling the truth about being bored. Which approach do you think is more likely to produce a positive reaction, mine or yours?

[Desperado]

He's wrong about Fitz and I'd be interested in his take on #128. Not sure why he ignored it.

I also don't understand his Mantis read. He says they just lean town and needs to post more, but two of his scum reads are directly related to votes on Mantis. I don't really understand the thought process there.

I will read those games and let you know how I feel about Bert

[Desperado]

I felt the same way about my predecessor. This was my first time to be scum as well. I felt like if I gave my "reads," Nacho would know that it would be BS. I was hiding/lurking like a coward. Hahaha. Being town is so much more fun for me!

That quote from 503's post game seems pretty apt.

Unvote: Bert

Talk to me about Wisdom. Is the endless one line post ISO their playstyle or is it a relative scumtell? Because so far this game looks an awful lot like Wisdomscum from 503.

[Desperado]

Vote: Wisdom

[Desperado]

Who did I sheep?

[Desperado]

mollie what do you think about Wisdom lying about why his townread on me got weaker?

[Desperado]

mollie what do you think about Wisdom lying about why his townread on me got weaker?

about as much as I think of tator forgetting they fosed me and bert sheeping our vote, sheeping our read on you but has us as null

I want to lynch them all

at the same time

I don't think he was lying (cos lying is intentional)

as much as he can't keep up with the very fast pace of the thread

like srsly can we lynch them all

good grief slimer looks better than they do and he has only said 1 word

what

He said I'm sheeping people to easily when I've objectively not sheeped anyone all game. Semantics aside, it's scummy.

Double post deleted. ~Mala

[Desperado]

mollie what do you think about Wisdom lying about why his townread on me got weaker?

about as much as I think of tator forgetting they fosed me and bert sheeping our vote, sheeping our read on you but has us as null

I want to lynch them all

at the same time

I don't think he was lying (cos lying is intentional)

as much as he can't keep up with the very fast pace of the thread

like srsly can we lynch them all

good grief slimer looks better than they do and he has only said 1 word

what

He said I'm sheeping people to easily when I've objectively not sheeped anyone all game. Semantics aside, it's scummy.

Double post deleted. ~Mala

desp the bold was sarcasm

I think he thinks you sheeped my vote. which you did in a way but I took it that you were already feeling sus of him and so I do not see it as you sheeping. is that true?

That's the way I see it.

Wisdom, Mollie said she read Bert as town and provided meta that supported the read. Do you disagree with her assessment?

[Desperado]

He's wrong about Fitz and I'd be interested in his take on #128. Not sure why he ignored it.

I also don't understand his Mantis read. He says they just lean town and needs to post more, but two of his scum reads are directly related to votes on Mantis. I don't really understand the thought process there.

I will read those games and let you know how I feel about Bert

[Desperado]

Bert do you really think mollie wasn't being genuine when she said she voted me to stir things up and sort me out? Do you think the hydra dissonance is fake?

Can you go into more detail about why you think they aren't advancing the game and can you link some specific posts that you think

have

advanced the game?

[Desperado]

I want reasons mollie is scum from newearth, arc, and Lynx. Now.

[Desperado]

^Just so we're clear, I want them so that I can show you three why you're wrong.

Then we can lynch from Bert/Mantis/Tayter because this wagon blows.

[Desperado]

Lynx, I wanted you reasons for molliescum because you three were my townreads on the wagon. What you provided was pretty lame.

Not sure why you want the reasons before debunking but short version
118
147
157
192
212

For the most part is stringing Bert along, distances, strings Bert along, and he's just going with it. I'm getting (right now) Town Bert Scum macmollie off this. 212 I originally leaned Town at this point, but then accuses me of the same thing but voting me for it in 225.

You're going to have to be more specific. Which ones are distancing and which ones are stringing him along? Why is scummollie distancing from town Bert?

Mollie's 212 and 225 are both extremely town. You can argue how close mollie was to actually getting lynched all you want, Om, her disposition in 225 is clearly town accepting death and leaving a trail.

*flounce*

VOTE: mollieVOTE: mollieVOTE: mollieVOTE: mollieVOTE: mollieVOTE: mollieVOTE: mollieVOTE: mollieVOTE: mollieVOTE: mollieVOTE: mollieVOTE: mollieVOTE: mollieVOTE: mollieVOTE: mollieVOTE: mollie

If people still are wondering why I think mollie's scum then they should probably consult an optometrist.

^Cut that shit out. I'm still very much wondering why you think mollie is scum but I can't afford to get my eyes checked. How about you spell it out so I don't have to squint so hard?

wisdom, why are you defending mollie, this is not town mollie in anyway

I look forward to an in depth analysis of town mollie and why this isn't it.

[Desperado]

Vote: Nat

She isn't null anymore.

[Desperado]

Vote: Nat

She isn't null anymore.

I'm not sure what you've seen from there till now. Care to elaborate?

#338 and to a lesser extent #224.

Bert's taken care of 338 but Nat unvotes in 224 because "RVS is over" when it had ended 10 pages earlier, and she still hasn't voted anyone. So not only is her turn on mollie awkward and supported, but she's cheerleading a wagon she isn't even on.

Nat: if you're "getting a clearer picture" why haven't you placed a legitimate vote all game?

[Desperado]

I had her as null because the things she had done up to that point (self-voting, being bored) were null.

I don't agree that she's engaged and isn't sitting back at all. She hasn't put her vote where her mouth is and the progression of her reads don't reflect the game state in a meaningful way. In particular, seeing nothing but town mollie in 325 but no longer town reading her after a full reread doesn't make any sense and is opportunistic (especially without a vote attached), and the main reason she gave ("I believe Om said it best, 'coasting on town reads'") is pretty rich coming from someone who a) hasn't voted and b) doesn't have a single scum read.

Double posted deleted ~Mala

[Desperado]

What a surprise, ArcAngel being prodded.

What was the purpose of this post? Because it certainly wasn't to hunt scum.

Nat I thought you had some things you needed to say? Or was #370 it? I don't like how you started to get a clearer picture, and clearly put some thought into the "alignment table" of three players (that's engagement in the game) but now you're saying it's still having trouble holding your interest.

[Desperado]

Newearth is still town guys. If you don't think Nat is town, she is a much better lynch today

[Desperado]

desp I don't think tne is town. his push on us is really really bad.

I don't like nat either but you are going to have to really push it and sell in order to get it to go through so close to deadline.

I think it was weak, not bad. And even that push was head and shoulders above the scumplay I'm familiar with from him.

Newearth is still town guys. If you don't think Nat is town, she is a much better lynch today

what makes you say she is town?

My read from early in the game is still valid. I saw scum-TNE up close and personal in Micro 150 and this just isn't it.

Seriously, just read this game, it's 13 pages:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=26781

If you still think TNE is scum after reading the link above then we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Desperado]

@Desp
If you think you can read someone just by reading one (1) scumgame of theirs, we will definitely agree to disagree.

Do you have contradictory meta or something? His disposition is completely different this game.

[Desperado]

@Desp
If you think you can read someone just by reading one (1) scumgame of theirs, we will definitely agree to disagree.

Do you have contradictory meta or something? His disposition is completely different this game.

[Desperado]

Alright, forget the meta. What's the TNE case again?

Shit, just noticed the deadline. We have 1 day and some hours left.

VOTE: thenewearth
His last post gave me bad feelings, and I don't really feel especially good about any lynch, so this is my pick for a deadline lynch.

Because your vote is weak.

[Desperado]

How does me being town make TNE more likely to be scum?

[Desperado]

Serra

You've never seen Scum-mara, so what are how are you deciding how I sound like as town without that?

BUT HAI, LONG TIME NO SEE

Can you explain your desp read?

Except I have...awkward :/

Desp's Bert vote was awful. His lack of push-back after some people scumread him is nothing like the Nuzlocke, and the Nati push while wking tne doesn't look right (e.g. 407)

I really think slimer should go today, though, what do you think about him?

What doesn't look right about it?

And why does me being town make TNE more likely to be scum?

[Desperado]

Spoiler: My full Nat push

Vote: Nat

She isn't null anymore.

Vote: Nat

She isn't null anymore.

I'm not sure what you've seen from there till now. Care to elaborate?

#338 and to a lesser extent #224.

Bert's taken care of 338 but Nat unvotes in 224 because "RVS is over" when it had ended 10 pages earlier, and she still hasn't voted anyone. So not only is her turn on mollie awkward and supported, but she's cheerleading a wagon she isn't even on.

Nat: if you're "getting a clearer picture" why haven't you placed a legitimate vote all game?

I had her as null because the things she had done up to that point (self-voting, being bored) were null.

I don't agree that she's engaged and isn't sitting back at all. She hasn't put her vote where her mouth is and the progression of her reads don't reflect the game state in a meaningful way. In particular, seeing nothing but town mollie in 325 but no longer town reading her after a full reread doesn't make any sense and is opportunistic (especially without a vote attached), and the main reason she gave ("I believe Om said it best, 'coasting on town reads'") is pretty rich coming from someone who a) hasn't voted and b) doesn't have a single scum read.

Double posted deleted ~Mala

What a surprise, ArcAngel being prodded.

What was the purpose of this post? Because it certainly wasn't to hunt scum.

Nat I thought you had some things you needed to say? Or was #370 it? I don't like how you started to get a clearer picture, and clearly put some thought into the "alignment table" of three players (that's engagement in the game) but now you're saying it's still having trouble holding your interest.

Newearth is still town guys. If you don't think Nat is town, she is a much better lynch today

I suppose those two posts could appear awkward in isolation but it's not like they are representative of my case. Why aren't you including my 367/369 in your analysis of how I take stances and develop reads?

Double post deleted! ~Mala

[Desperado]

I'd rather NL than vote mollie, wisdom, or tne

[Desperado]

So we have 36 hours left and the deadline is somewhere in the middle of Sunday night, so we really need to get something done.

You guys are obviously intent on letting slimer play this sort of game, so I can only hope he'll replace out or something. I really don't have the tenacity to see this through. If he is scum and wins this, or if he's town and ends up getting mislynched in LyLo, I'll just need to avoid games with him, or better play with people I know don't fuck around with lynching lurkers and other anti-town play.

I mean, I'm sorry serra, but Slimer has done anything but lurk since his V/LA ended. While his contributions have been hit and miss since, to accuse him of lurking is patently wrong.

@DESP: Now, THAT is retarded.

Why? I'd rather NL than lynch a townread. It's pretty simple, and it's not a death sentence or something. We NLed D1 in WWE (multiball large theme) and steamrolled the scum because of it.

Unvote
Vote: Serrapaladin

Bert, we aren't doing Mantis today.

[Desperado]

I don't think there's any likelihood you can push a mantis lynch through, do you?

[Desperado]

How is a MULTIBALL LARGE theme game applicable here? That you're using a game that is totally not the same as a mid-sized mini blows my mind.

Why are you ignoring my questions

let me ask you another question then. do you think YOU can push a Serra lynch through?

The more you ignore my questions, the more questions you're getting

and if you go "SORRY I DONT ANSWER STUPID QUESTIONS"

then my vote's going back to you

Um...it isn't? I was just saying that a D1 NL isn't an apocalypse scenario, and if anything would be more damaging in a large where there are multiple scum kills.

Yes, I'm pretty confident I could get serra lynched.

What question did I ignore?

[Desperado]

Are you THAT sure of all three of those townreads you mentioned that you would opt for a NL over them? Because of meta?

In TNE's case, yeah. The other two are just town. You disagree?

EBWOP: So far, your only reason for "Mantis is not worth a lynch" seems to be "Bert, you know you can't push a lynch on him/her through just because."

We're 15 hours to the deadline. What other reason do I need? I don't think you have the support for a mantis lynch ready to go and you don't have enough time to make a case, so how is your vote doing anything other than help facilitate a NL?

[Desperado]

Meh, I like mollie - she's being so paranoid as heck, and we are clashing like we normally do when she is town (in my experience).

Wisdom, not too sure. I've dayvigged him and been wrong. I don't disagree, but I wouldn't go "IM NOT GONNA LYNCH HIM, ID RATHER NL"

TNE is derp central like me. I mean, heck he/she was calling me scum with Mollie on page freakin 5. So I wouldn't be sad to see him/her go, it's hard to get a read on people like him/her without past experience.

How you're SO sure on Day 1 without flips that you're willing to NL in order to protect your town reads is what gets me. Do you not see how terrible that makes you look

You should feel bad

I don't feel bad and don't give a fuck how it makes me look. What are you even getting at here? It basically sounds like you're saying I shouldn't have any confidence in my reads and should have let TNE get lynched. Do I have that right?

[Desperado]

EBWOP: No, 4 is not much better than my 3.

If Nat votes for Mantis, that'll be 3.

I'm not at a disadvantage here. So hell no.

Your vote counts both ways though. So you can either put Serra to 5 or hope Nat gets here before deadline and puts your Mantis wagon to 3. And then who?

[Desperado]

But no, you're twisting my words. I stand by my comment that your "I'd rather NL than lynch X Y and Z" is bad and you should feel bad. And you're implying no confidence in my ability to garner the support needed for a mantis lynch. am I not convincing enough?

Do you have a case that I missed?

[Desperado]

No, I don't have a problem with you. I just don't think your gut is going to convince anyone.

And I didn't overlook it, I just didn't have anything to say about it.

[Desperado]

Vote: Natirasha

[Desperado]

Both. All of the reasons I gave for pushing your lynch yesterday are still relevant, if not more so.

[Desperado]

It's the biggest piece of evidence for townWis.

[Desperado]

No.

[Desperado]

It's the biggest piece of evidence for townWis.

how does

that

work

I completely follow Wisdom's thought process as laid out 1017 and 1042, and they match his behavior at the end of the day.

What was scumWis hoping to gain from doing what he did?

[Desperado]

It's the biggest piece of evidence for townWis.

how does

that

work

I completely follow Wisdom's thought process as laid out 1017 and 1042, and they match his behavior at the end of the day.

What was scumWis hoping to gain from doing what he did?

by gaining cred on not lynching scum?

What?

[Desperado]

also I want to say here that mac and on our spreadsheet both noticed a direct tie between desp and tne. I thought they were masons which is why I left tne alone when he did not even remotely make sense with his case against us.

I am guessing that is not the case so I removing the both of them from the untouchables pile.

to expand I had them as siblings or masons because of the way TNE rolled into the game which I urge you all to take a look at. i didn't mention it because i thought it was too damn blatant to be scum and I had pinned them to the castle's (knowing nothing about the series) flavourwise but yes it appears to not be like so.

desp or tne can you explain what happened there then?

I don't think I can shed any light on that, but I already explained why I RVSed him here.

[Desperado]

Let's not

Is Mantis/Wisdom/TNE your scum team mollie?

[Desperado]

Let's not

Is Mantis/Wisdom/TNE your scum team mollie?

I believe I already made myself clear on mantis.

what do you think of wis's conspiracy theory on nats and sera?

I think it's more likely that there's just 1 scum in Wisdom's web, and it's Nat, but I also understand how he came to his conclusion and it makes sense. I'm not sure why you're being so dismissive about it.

[Desperado]

Let's not

Is Mantis/Wisdom/TNE your scum team mollie?

I believe I already made myself clear on mantis.

what do you think of wis's conspiracy theory on nats and sera?

I think it's more likely that there's just 1 scum in Wisdom's web, and it's Nat, but I also understand how he came to his conclusion and it makes sense. I'm not sure why you're being so dismissive about it.

[Desperado]

itt desp makes me lose my faith in humanity

penguin restores it

we are good as long as you dummies don't lynch her

Penguin even noted that he's either scum or stubborn town. I'm thinking the latter, and that makes you lose your faith in humanity?

[Desperado]

as for Desperado, I just don't like him...

I feel like he's treading water, taking care as to who he aligns himself to and I don't see any proactivity coming from him which is really worrisome

why do you think he's town?

Can you be more specific about this?

You can start by explaining why town wouldn't take care as to who they align themselves with.

[Desperado]

What reads haven't I been clear about Bert?

[Desperado]

Desperado I'm liking less and less. Now he's apparently only posting to defend himself when he's being accused.

What else should I be commenting on that I'm not? I've talked about several things today that have nothing to do with defending myself.

[Desperado]

List of scumreads please, other than Nat.

List of townreads please? Other than mollie wis and tne?

I ask because I want to see where you stand, and your reads (comprehensive) aren't that accessible. To put my money where my mouth is, I will give an update of what I think, but I need some more time to re-read all. Youvé been here today though.

Or are you content with just one scumread and lots of townreads? I am not content with that

I'm content with giving the information I'm confident in giving. I can't recall an instance of me giving anything resembling a full player by player reads list on this site and I'm not likely to start now.

[Desperado]

I dunno, scumhunt maybe?

That doesn't seem like an answer to the question I asked.

[Desperado]

Yeah.
So Desp is scum.

Why, because I won't give a meaningless reads list that will have you, TNE, and mollie as town, Nat as scum, and the other 6 varying degrees of null?

[Desperado]

So you're saying you don't have other scumreads?

Not one that I'm confident enough in stating and pursuing, no.

It's the opposite of your approach.

[Desperado]

Yeah.
So Desp is scum.

Why, because I won't give a meaningless reads list that will have you, TNE, and mollie as town, Nat as scum, and the other

6 varying degrees of null

?

6 varying degrees of null LOL

that is not acceptable at all, Desp

Why isn't it? Are you saying you can say with confidence what ever player's alignment is right now?

[Desperado]

And why are you scumreading Natirasha again?

Lots of false promises D1 followed by a spur of activity right at the deadline reads like scum treading water and then turning the switch on when it counted.

Lots of suspicion thrown Sweet Pertayter's way throughout D1 (while continually noting that "Mara's return" might mitigate the read), followed by the interactions you've described in detail at the end of D1.

Useless setup speculation with references to games that obviously have no effect on the setup of this game while a lot of interesting interactions were happening is the cherry on top.

I think there's one scum in {Serra, Sweet Pertayter, Nat} and I think it's Nat.

[Desperado]

Desp, this weak defensive play is nothing like you. I remember you being aggressive and going after people, lots of people, in Nuzlocke. Now I do believe people can play differently in games, but such a big difference? Why are you doing nothing here?

I don't think I'm doing nothing, and you and Serra have both referenced Nuzlocke which, in my opinion, is disingenuous. Not only is that just one game, it was just one day of play before the game was abandoned.

Given your position on meta I don't really understand your thought process here.

[Desperado]

It's one game, but it's all I've played with you. Meta is just an extra though, 1)my issue is you're doing nothing, 2) you have a scumread yet you're not engaging him to figure him out and ensure that your read is right or change your mind, 3) you only post to defend yourself, 4) you're trying to self-meta... Yeah, I can't see you being town right now.

Can you explain the rest of your reads to me? 5)Even the null ones.

Let's take these one at a time.

1) That's your opinion.
2) Yes I am.
3) No I'm not. I've already refuted this one, do you need me to quote my posts that don't include me defending myself or are you just going to keep saying it like it's true?
4) No I'm not. I don't make lists. You and Bert are attempting to make that a scumtell when it is a playstyle tell, plain and simple.
5) Mantis, Penguin, Slimer lean town. SP, Bert, Serra lean scum. If Nat is scum, SP and Serra aren't which means one of the three lean towns is scum. Any more detail would be fabricated, which is why I don't feel compelled to make something up to satisfy you two.

[Desperado]

Because I don't have anything to back them up beyond gut.

[Desperado]

Mantis, what do you think about serra/penguin/Desp? I'm feeling more and more this is accurate.

well this does stand out a bit

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p5193473
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p5193481

^those 2 posts. and then:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5193496

stating that she is null.

The first two posts refer to TNE. The third refers to Nat.

[Desperado]

Because I cannot see how the fuck serra would do that as town.

Then, by this logic, why am I scum?

serra was okay with almost any wagon - Mantis, macmollie, Desperado, havingfitz - but not yours. If he is scum, why specifically not want your wagon but want anyone else's?

Because I cannot see how the fuck serra would do that as town.

Then, by this logic, why am I scum?

serra was okay with almost any wagon - Mantis, macmollie, Desperado, havingfitz - but not yours. If he is scum, why specifically not want your wagon but want anyone else's?

Perhaps he thought I was gullible(I had been on his side since his first post) and having a townie in your pocket is good?

Bleh. I have to admit that's not a bad answer.

Wisdom do you have any other comments on my Nat case beyond it being terribad? And are all bad cases made by scum?

[Desperado]

Didn't mean to post those quotes but since they're there, can you also take some more about how Serra and Nat went from scumbuddies to Scum + Town and why you think Nat is town?

[Desperado]

No, town make bad cases too. The thing is you're not going after anyone else and you're continuing doing nothing.

You keep saying this, and I keep disagreeing. How is what we are talking about right now "doing nothing?"

[Desperado]

She's not THIS derpy as town.

Do you have some examples of Mantis being this derpy as scum?

[Desperado]

I'm starting to think serra is actually town and people are just WKing him. I cannot comprehend people's failure to scumread serra otherwise.

What the...

You're willing to stop tunneling someone you've tunneled all day spanning back to the later stages of D1?



I SEEN IT ALL, I can't believe my eyes

By golly, I SEEN IT ALL

What was the purpose of this post Bert?

Do you have an opinion on what Wisdom did or what?

[Desperado]

I'm not really following you. It doesn't seem like you have a good baseline for Mantis' derp level. And if this level of derpiness is above and beyond anything you've ever seen, why does her extreme derpiness = scum and not null?

[Desperado]

What about Nat, then? She's been just as open about her townread on Serra.

[Desperado]

She's not THIS derpy as town.

Do you have some examples of Mantis being this derpy as scum?

I have examples of mantis being this hedgey as scum

I have an arsenal of at least 60 which ones do you want.

The 3 best examples that include both of you in them. Mantis' "You aren't getting my this game because I've been scumreading you...but you're probably town now" stuck out to me.

[Desperado]

She's not THIS derpy as town.

Do you have some examples of Mantis being this derpy as scum?

I have examples of mantis being this hedgey as scum

I have an arsenal of at least 60 which ones do you want.

The 3 best examples that include both of you in them. Mantis' "You aren't getting my this game because I've been scumreading you...but you're probably town now" stuck out to me.

[Desperado]

Why were you badgering me for my reads if you aren't even going to remember the ones I give you?

Wisdom is town and I have been saying that for a while.

[Desperado]

Wisdom is town and I have been saying that for a while.

5) Mantis, Penguin, Slimer lean town. SP, Bert, Serra lean scum. If Nat is scum, SP and Serra aren't which means one of the three lean towns is scum. Any more detail would be fabricated, which is why I don't feel compelled to make something up to satisfy you two.

You didn't mention Wisdom here, and no I don't remember any other reads you gave me. I tried badgering you for reads the other day, and I came up empty.

Remember that time I said I would rather NL than lynch mollie, wisdom, or TNE and you said it was really bad?

Then you brought it up again later to say how much you hated it?

Or maybe this post:

Yeah.
So Desp is scum.

Why, because I won't give a meaningless reads list that will have you, TNE, and mollie as town, Nat as scum, and the other

6 varying degrees of null

?

6 varying degrees of null LOL

that is not acceptable at all, Desp

Where you quote me saying Wisdom is town again?

[Desperado]

Mollie: is Mantis aware of "that thing that you always associate with her town game?"

[Desperado]

...

Who am I chainsawing?

[Desperado]

Better yet, who am I attacking?

[Desperado]

@ desp

your attack on any argument that mantis scum is classic chainsaw so I don't even. your defense of mantis is "but she can be this stupid as town, do you have proof that she is not?" and sucks donkey balls. it is obvious and transparent and hopefully there will be somone with a brain who will not let you make it to endgame.

I think the next thing you should do is say, "oh mantis is voting me no way she could be my buddy!".

I am telling you in the 50 or 60 games I have played with this player I have never seen her derp this much but I

have

seen her hedge like this. your counter to that was, "did mantis ever learn the town tell you have on her???" <-----

jesus fucking christ does anyone even remotely see how weird that line of thinking is?

this game depresses the hell out of me. wis, your commitment to your vanity lynches is what costs games. you wouldn't budge off of mala but instead gave room for town mara to get mislynched on d1 and for mala to pick off the other team. you seriously need to think beyond the next lynch and think of endgame

as town

. there was an interaction between gm and mala that could have been damning if gm could have been lynched first. you have got to start laying the groundwork cos you are an early nightkill.

can you plz fucking worry about sera later. I think he looks horrid but I need YOU to trust me on this. for once. work with me here and help me to organise things a bit.

WTF is this shit mollie?

I wasn't even attacking you. I was asking you a question about your experience with mantis so I could get a better read. When I asked if mantis was aware of your uber-relative tell, it wasn't a fucking counter to anything--do you not think that that question was relevant to determining her alignment? Because you obviously haven't seen it, and if she's aware of the tell and still hasn't put it off, then she's probably scum, right?

And why did you rewrite my question into something I didn't ask? You said I said

"but she can be this stupid as town, do you have proof that she is not?"

When I actually said:

Do you have some examples of Mantis being this derpy as scum?

No where do I declare that Mantis can be this stupid as town. I've never played with her and wouldn't know. What I was getting at, and why this post from you makes no sense, is explained two posts later:

I'm not really following you. It doesn't seem like you have a good baseline for Mantis' derp level. And if this level of derpiness is above and beyond anything you've ever seen, why does her extreme derpiness = scum and not null?

Finally, none of this has anything to do with what your actual argument is for mantis-scum, which is the hedging. I read the game from TR, I saw what you saw, and wanted your response to the question I posed before I voted her.

Unvote
Vote: Mantis

[Desperado]

Disregard what I said about Desp looking better.
serra/Desp is a thing.

So I was looking better while I was clearly scumhunting Mantis, but now that I've come to a conclusion on her slot I no longer look better (because I didn't draw the conclusion you wanted me to)?

[Desperado]

Your Mantis vote is opportunistic. You seemed disbelieving when I was saying that Mantis is not this derp as town but when mollie points out something that is equally weak and has the same potential of being wrong, you sheep it without hesitating.
Meanwhile, you ignore serra's obvious lying.

I never said that Mantis wasn't this derp as town. I just reiterated that again in my response to mollie.

And I'm not ignoring serra's lying, I'm not addressing it because I think you're making it up. At best it's an inconsistency that, given the circumstances (rapid activity over a 4 hour period vs. remembering an event several days later) is plausible for both alignments. If anything, I would argue that scum would be more likely to have reread that end of day exchange in order to ensure consistency in their responses the following day.

[Desperado]

You wanted me to prove what I was saying, ergo you were disbelieving/ you were not buying it. Yet you opportunistically sheeped mollie's point.

And bullshit. serra just repeated what others said about happened. He is lying and there was no other excuse he could have used about what he did. But no, you choose to ignore it.

Of course I wanted you to prove it. Your original statement was "She's not THIS derpy as town," which you later revised to "I mean, she's derpy as town sometimes but not to this point" after I "wasn't buying it."

My point was that her derp-level was null because, as you admitted, you've never seen mantis be this derpy at all, whereas the example mollie provided from TR is pretty clearly reflective of mantis' play here.

You are confbiasing all over the place on serra and need to stop, seriously. I'm still confident in one scum in {serra, Nat, Tater} and of the three, I think serra is the one most likely to flip town by a fair margin.

[Desperado]

I don't think Nat is scum. Peng might be, but she's not one of my real scumreads.

This is the part where you dispute what Serra said. Your entire read hinges on serra's original declaration to self-vote, and that when she finally found a target to lynch instead (that wasn't a townread) she switched, so she's scum.

Why would town not do that again? When serra said she would self-vote, she thought she was the only viable lynch available. The circumstances changed as the deadline came closer when enough people were present to lynch fitz, who she didn't care about one way or another. Self-preservation is not always a scumtell.

[Desperado]

You are confbiasing all over the place on serra and need to stop, seriously. I'm still confident in one scum in {serra, Nat, Tater} and of the three, I think serra is the one most likely to flip town by a fair margin.

why does serra seem townier than Tat and/or Nat?

For mixing up the end of day events. I think scum would have reread that exchange extensively so as to not contradict themselves.

Desp's earlier ISO is a little weird too. he states out of nowhere that: arc, newearth, lynnx and fitz are town: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5193537
when fitz had made one post of substance, which involved a vote on me for posting a picture or something.

then later he randomly states that Bert, Tater and i should be lynched: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p5207230
while at this point, he hasn't even had any discussion with me OR Tater. and was voting Bert at the time, pushing him about Bert's vote on Nat, when Bert was looking pretty towny at that point.

mollie - if you remember, you even made mention that you did not like the angle Desp was taking on Bert.

I explained all of those townreads, and why would I need to have discussed anything with you or tater before calling for your lynch? All three of you were on the mollie wagon and it sucked, which I stated in the post you quoted. How is that random?

As much as it pains me to admit it, serra is town. Looks like he really just didn't bother to remember what exactly happened back there, hence his inconsistency today that I called lies. I'll never get why he refused to vote Natirasha when he did, but unfortunately every retarded and hilariously anti-town move does not come from scum.

penguin/Desp/{tater, slimer} is the scumteam.

whould town would whiteknight thenewearth, at this point?

Yes? He was town on page three and he's done nothing to change it.

Because fucking read Desp's posts. He is not town. I've seen town-Desp and it's not this thing here.

I already quoted you saying earlier this game that one game of meta is useless, yet you've been harping on this point over and over again. Up to here I was pretty sure your schizophrenic playstyle today was a major towntell but I no longer believe that you're actually trying to figure this out--it reads more like scum cycling through potential mislynches than town epiphany after town epiphany.

Unvote
Vote: Wisdom

[Desperado]

mmkay

[Desperado]

Why wait until tomorrow?

[Desperado]

I guess it would give you more time to explain why you've repeatedly said things like "I've seen town-desp and this isn't it" even though we've played a total of one day of mafia together and you've made it clear that one game isn't enough to establish a consistent meta in the first place.

[Desperado]

I guess it would give you more time to explain why you've repeatedly said things like "I've seen town-desp and this isn't it" even though we've played a total of one day of mafia together and you've made it clear that one game isn't enough to establish a consistent meta in the first place.

[Desperado]

zzzz

I'm not ignoring it. If I had intent to hammer I would have said so. I didn't, so it shouldn't be too difficult for you to figure out how I feel about the Penguin wagon.

[Desperado]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25944
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=25751
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=27884
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=26781

[Desperado]

THAT IS IT. and I don't know why except it is about that time when I start to get weird with people whom I have played a lot of games with. he has dropped down to an apathetic state but yeah this game had a slump and we all kind of lost steam. I am not sure what we can do to rope him in if he is town.

You can realize that Wisdom's scumread on me is based on his "experience" with me, which amounts to one day of Pokemon Nuzlocke before it got abandoned, despite the fact that Wisdom has also said

in this game

that a single game of experience is not enough to constitute a reliable meta read. I've mentioned this multiple times and he continues ignoring it and reiterating how "This doesn't feel like the town-Desp I know" when he, by his own admission, has no reasonable justification for saying it.

I think Wisdom is arrogant scum who saw an opportunity to setup multiple lynches based on the end of day one but, now that neither of them drew results, he's falling back on weak ass reads ("This isn't town-Desp," "Penguin is scum because she should know I'm town by now," "Slimer lurks"????) that don't stand up to even the slightest bit of scrutiny (which is why he keeps ignoring me when I try to scrutinize, because he knows his meta read on me is bullshit that can't be defended).

[Desperado]

THAT IS IT. and I don't know why except it is about that time when I start to get weird with people whom I have played a lot of games with. he has dropped down to an apathetic state but yeah this game had a slump and we all kind of lost steam. I am not sure what we can do to rope him in if he is town.

You can realize that Wisdom's scumread on me is based on his "experience" with me, which amounts to one day of Pokemon Nuzlocke before it got abandoned, despite the fact that Wisdom has also said

in this game

that a single game of experience is not enough to constitute a reliable meta read. I've mentioned this multiple times and he continues ignoring it and reiterating how "This doesn't feel like the town-Desp I know" when he, by his own admission, has no reasonable justification for saying it.

I think Wisdom is arrogant scum who saw an opportunity to setup multiple lynches based on the end of day one but, now that neither of them drew results, he's falling back on weak ass reads ("This isn't town-Desp," "Penguin is scum because she should know I'm town by now," "Slimer lurks"????) that don't stand up to even the slightest bit of scrutiny (which is why he keeps ignoring me when I try to scrutinize, because he knows his meta read on me is bullshit that can't be defended).

this post really smells like scum caught out for what they think are the wrong reasons.

desp, I never scum read you cos of wis it was for my own reasons which are nearly impossible to explain. mac town read you and I am not sure where he stands with that now.

I really liked my exchanges with om.

om when you get back in here can we talk a bit more?

I can be good with a penny lynch I suppose. I don't have any solid scumreads tbh but I do have a couple of solid town reads and I intend to work with them.

"For what they think are the wrong reasons" are you saying wisdom's read on me is legitimate? He's ignored me every time I brought this up, you don't find that significant?

[Desperado]

You continually act as though you have a rock solid baseline for my townplay:

Desp, this weak defensive play is nothing like you. I remember you being aggressive and going after people, lots of people, in Nuzlocke. Now I do believe people can play differently in games, but such a big difference? Why are you doing nothing here?

Because fucking read Desp's posts. He is not town. I've seen town-Desp and it's not this thing here.

Well just read 72, mollie. Desp wouldn't use that weak stuff to townread a buddy. It's townreading actual town for fake reasons.

I don't know about Tater. Om I just don't know and don't really like, and Mara has just seemed apathetic for the most part. In the few posts she did care and made I thought I got town vibes. But I'm not that good at reading Mara anyway.

I'm thinking slimer over Tater though because I don't think Tater makes much sense with the other two (again thinking as if we have the two flips, I know, but I'm feeling like they're both confscum so can't help it). however, slimer said something about wanting to go see who Lynx suspected, which is weird given Lynx actually suspected slimer and it makes me doubt that he's scum.

I don't know how you see Desp town. If he's town he's really really apathetic about the game - he doesn't do anything, he sheeps people, his cases are really weak.. I don't think I can see that as town. Town-Desp I had seen was active, constantly trying to read people.. basically the exact opposite of what I'm seeing here.

And I disputed your meta read every time, yet you continue to espouse your position like it's beyond reproach. If that's not ignoring, that what do you call it?

[Desperado]

Cool, how about you stop voting no one and do something about it then?

Me vs you, let's go.

[Desperado]

How is this town-Desp? Explain this to me NOW. That was a PUNY defense. "let's go, vote me, let's see whatcha got"

REALLY, SERRA. If that's town-Desp, what's scum-Desp????????????

Considering both of them are speaking from one days worth of evidence I don't think they have any clue what either of me looks like, which is why this entire thing is so outrageous.

[Desperado]

Umm no it doesn't?

You just conceded that your meta on me is worthless. Your opinion on what is or isn't indicative of my town meta is irrelevant.

[Desperado]

Right. First they just weren't reminiscent of the one day we played together months ago, now they just can't be town in generic terms.

If any of you isn't voting Wisdom or myself by your next post, you are doing it wrong.

[Desperado]

Right. First they just weren't reminiscent of the one day we played together months ago, now they just can't be town in generic terms.

If any of you isn't voting Wisdom or myself by your next post, you are doing it wrong.

And while we're at it, this here is another action that screams scum. You're desperate to catch me in a contradiction that doesn't exist so that you can end the argument in your favor. Scum do that because the longer an argument goes on, the easier it is for people to realize who is scum and who isn't.

I'm not desperate to do anything, your original position was that I am not playing to my town meta. Now you are saying that meta has nothing to do with it, my actions have just been generically scummy. You've pretty clearly contradicted yourself.

[Desperado]

Nope, I was referring to the specific action that serra stated looks more like town.

I'm talking about all the times before this that you said something akin to "I know town-desp and this isn't it" but then you later amended it to "your meta is irrelevant, your actions are just scummy."

[Desperado]

I think serra is the one most likely to flip town by a fair margin.

FakeGod, Desp is not scumreading serra.

I am now. Nats' claim is probably legit which means her and Tayter are town which means Serra is scum.

Unvote
Vote: Serra

[Desperado]

All of their interactions at the end of D1 pointed to one scum manipulating the other two as the deadline approached.

[Desperado]

Bert, I know you're not eye-rolling me when your participation in this game was summed up nicely in FakeGod's reads list. You've done nothing but sheep wisdom and mollie and post GIFs. Somehow this makes you town, and mollie is pretty sure about that so I'm trusting her, but the more you sit there and act as a proxy-vote for mollie the less I understand her position.

[Desperado]

Show me what interactions exactly made you think that.

Yeah I'm not going to do that. Your End of Day summation is more than sufficient to back up what I saw.

PEdit: What do you mean I lost a hand?

[Desperado]

Then I call bullshit. They can easily be all town, yet all you've done in the game is base your reads on this belief that one of them is scum.

Call bullshit all you want. They could all be town, sure. I don't think they are.

[Desperado]

Also, getting you to explain yourself shouldn't have to be like pulling teeth

are you always like this, seriously, nice job, good giong

And your refusal to explain to Wisdom is like SOOOOOOOO totally acceptable

gimme a break

I'm not refusing to explain anything. Wisdom wrote up an enormous summation of the end of the day that pretty clearly connects serra/nat/tayter. I'm not going to waste my time requoting interactions.

[Desperado]

@Desp
Read on FakeGod? On Huntress?
Fucking do something in this game?

I am doing something--getting serra lynched. You'll get my reads on fakegod and huntress when I give them to you.

[Desperado]

Also, getting you to explain yourself shouldn't have to be like pulling teeth

are you always like this, seriously, nice job, good giong

And your refusal to explain to Wisdom is like SOOOOOOOO totally acceptable

gimme a break

I'm not refusing to explain anything. Wisdom wrote up an enormous summation of the end of the day that pretty clearly connects serra/nat/tayter. I'm not going to waste my time requoting interactions.

You have based your whole game on this belief. It's WRONG to do so and town do not fucking do this. LAZY SCUM do this.
Also. If you thought my summation was so accurate (it wasn't) and it explained everything perfectly, why the fuck are you voting me?

Because at the time I thought it made you genuinely town. I don't anymore. This is all spelled out in my ISO so why are you asking me an idle question like this?

[Desperado]

I am doing something--getting serra lynched. You'll get my reads on fakegod and huntress when I give them to you.

That's not doing anything. You're still following your erroneous assumption that one of those three is scum.

Says the guy who's been basing all of his reads off of who makes the most sense as a scumteam together. You are the king of erroneous assumptions.

[Desperado]

Can't handle the truth?

[Desperado]

I think slimer's slot should just be policy lynched because he replaced out

wtf is this shit? I have personally replaced town-slimer before.

It's serra not knowing what to say so she just goes back to her original position (which was that a slimer who replaces is a slimer who got a scum PM)

Sorta like how she was townreading me for a couple days but now I'm scum again because my logic is "hideous"

[Desperado]

Can't handle the truth?

The truth? I have millions of reasons behind my reads and they have nothing to do with what scumteams make sense. I only use that to decide which lynch is best.
Go die, scum.

So you only use that to decide the single most important aspect of scumhunting?

[Desperado]

I think slimer's slot should just be policy lynched because he replaced out

wtf is this shit? I have personally replaced town-slimer before.

It's serra not knowing what to say so she just goes back to her original position (which was that a slimer who replaces is a slimer who got a scum PM)

Sorta like how she was townreading me for a couple days but now I'm scum again because my logic is "hideous"

I don't think I asked you. But of course, butt in when you see the opportunity.

I REPEAT THAT THIS CANNOT BE TOWN.
WE'RE NOT LYNCHING WHO DESP WANTS.

You didn't ask anyone anything? "wtf is this shit" is rhetorical at best.

[Desperado]

Wisdom you weren't clearly doing anything and continuing to lash out at everyone and anyone is one of the major reasons you're scum.

[Desperado]

Oh wait, shit. I didn't read that post correctly. Desp, how on earth can you think Wisdom is scum when you've also been "getting me lynched"?

I don't see how the two things are related.

[Desperado]

Your question doesn't make any sense. You're asking me how I'm reading Wisdom as scum but also pushing for your lynch, right?

[Desperado]

Your question doesn't make any sense. You're asking me how I'm reading Wisdom as scum but also pushing for your lynch, right?

[Desperado]

So you think we might be scum together? Or is wisdom just your next target for when I flip town?

I don't concern myself with associative tells without any flips. If you flip town then I will the same thing I do every other time I mislynched someone--reevaluate and move on.

desp, you really think Wis was hardcore bussing serra.. you know, when he was shouting about his lynch for pages?

Considering his current position? Yes, I absolutely believe that could be the case.

[Desperado]

nevermind his current position. you are saying that you really believe that wisdom was screaming and trying to get everyone to vote for his scumbuddy serra.... for town credit?

What are you even getting at? Yes, I believe that.

[Desperado]

just to explain why i was considering fakegod's position on Nat -- is because Nat's breadcrumbs looked almost too big.
that might sound ridiculous... but, they do look suspiciously obvious. so it makes me hesitate a bit... i would imagine a cop would try to be more subtle

and i guess now that it's out.. Nat, who is your character?

She already claimed Meredith. Why are you still hedging on your Nat read?

[Desperado]

Except Desp doesn't know that.

I don't have to know that, because scum will do whatever it takes to win.

[Desperado]

nevermind his current position. you are saying that you really believe that wisdom was screaming and trying to get everyone to vote for his scumbuddy serra.... for town credit?

What are you even getting at? Yes, I believe that.

i'm getting at the fact that you said, "considering wisdom's position".. as if it really makes a difference.. or makes it any better, that you want to roll with the idea that wisdom was hardcore bussing his partner.

So let me get this straight.

Wisdom comes out of the gate guns blazing on Nat. When that doesn't work out, he shifts seamlessly to Serra and champions Serra's lynch for several pages.

Now he refuses to vote serra under any circumstances because it's the lynch I want.

And you don't think they could be on the same team? Because Wisdom pushed for his buddy lynched really hard for a few pages?

That's pretty narrow-minded, and beside the point to boot.

[Desperado]

i missed that he claimed.
hedging? no, i'm explaining why i was considering it.

Looks to me like you're still leaving the door open for Nats' claim to be bunk. Why else were you suggesting that the breadcrumbs were a bit too obvious and then asking her to claim her role name?

[Desperado]

plus - see where i said i have never seen scum push a buddy that hard.

I actually didn't see that considering it came after my post...

But I have seen it. I've done it.

[Desperado]

i missed that he claimed.
hedging? no, i'm explaining why i was considering it.

Looks to me like you're still leaving the door open for Nats' claim to be bunk. Why else were you suggesting that the breadcrumbs were a bit too obvious and then asking her to claim her role name?

because if he was scum fake-claiming, it'd be interesting to see what claim he would come up with.
anyway - it looks to me, like you're trying to plant suspicion on me now for considering.
mollie - remember IAI

No, I'm accusing you of hedging your read on a player who you shouldn't be hedging on at this stage. You either think Nats' claim is legit or not, and asking her to claim her role name when she had already done so betrays the fact that you aren't reading her very closely...even though you think she might be lying.

[Desperado]

i'm saying that i have not seen scum hardbus like what desp thinks wisdom is doing!!!!!! sure, there's always a chance it could be.... but come on. if everyone was that cautious ("oh this has been done as scum before"), no one would ever have any town reads.

This isn't even close to what I'm saying, and ignores the fact that I've stated just a page ago that I don't care about associative tells without flips. It also ignores that I

was

reading Wisdom as town when he was championing Serra's lynch and that my read changed after he dropped his crusade against her.

even if you take that out of the equation with desp... there's the fact that his others reads (i think) are no good. there's the fact that he hasn't made mention of certain people, that we have been considering scum (peng, huntress). other things too.

Which reads aren't good and why does having bad reads make me scum?

Do you think only scum don't mention other players? What if I said Huntress hasn't said anything interesting enough for me to respond to?

What other things?

[Desperado]

Mollie, mantis meant she is more sure that I am scum than that Penguin is scum.

She's definitely hedging on Nat though.

[Desperado]

Mod: I've been voting Serra since 2065

[Desperado]

Finished looking at Penguin now and I'm willing to vote there if no one else wants to vote Wisdom. Next choice would be Mantis then possibly Serra or Bert but I'm still undecided on those two.

My main problem with Wisdom as scum is that although he's still my top scumread I can't see who his partners might be. Possibly Macmollie or Fg? But I don't think either are scum. And some of Penguin's posts look like she's pushing suspicion on Wisdom without actually voting him; it doesn't really look like bussing to me. She's also defending Mantis a bit while doing so.

@ Wisdom: Before you ask again, no I can't give you my reasons yet because I just don't have time to both get them together and to keep up with the thread at the moment. I'll try to do that over the next day or two.

Wisdom probably isn't happening today.

And you can't see who Wisdom's partners are on purpose.

I'm Kevin Ryan.

[Desperado]

I mean if Wisdom flipped scum you could probably craft a reasonable argument for everyone to be his buddy.

PEdit: Ok...?

[Desperado]

Wisdom probably isn't happening today.

And you can't see who Wisdom's partners are on purpose.

I'm Kevin Ryan.

I had a town read on you because your posts seemed genuine and I couldn't see any scum motivation in them but this attempt to discredit me is straining that read. Tell me what you see in my posts that led you to that conclusion?

What? Where am I discrediting you?

But my main problem with this post is the name claim. Serra asked how people would feel about a mass name claim. I was the only one to respond. When Macmollie queried me on it I thought about it a bit more and revised my opinion saying it was probably better not to reveal them. Macmollie asked another question about it but never gave her own opinion. Then without waiting for a consensus you go ahead and claim. Why?

Looks to me like half of the game had already claimed and they don't appear to have any bearing on roles anyway.

Not liking Penguin's immediate acquiescence and attempt to continue, giving the impression that a mass claim has been agreed.

Why didn't you say anything about FakeGod claiming right before me?

[Desperado]

Vote: Huntress

[Desperado]

Vote: Mantis

^She killed Wisdom. I tracker her to it.

I also tracked Huntress to Mollie N1--I hammered her because the Mollie/Wisdom/Bert multi-page slapfight wasn't doing anyone any good, the day needed to end, and I probably wouldn't have believed her claim anyway.

[Desperado]

Also, with the SK flip and the tracker claim, I'm pretty much 100% positive Nati is mafia cop at this point.

Yup. Huntress' flip confirmed that for me. Who is the 3rd do you think? I think it's penguin.

[Desperado]

Tayter has had some scum and some town moments, with town winning out at a 3:1 margin. They were untouchable town in fact before Nat "cleared" them. Therein lies the problem though. "Not Scum" isn't the same as "Innocent". It's just not scum. Usually this would imply third party, but the SK has already been dealt with and this is a smallish game. I'm not assigning this to town without one HELL of a good reason.

I can see them as being Neighborized if Wisdom and Mantis flip scum with a Neighborizer between them because that could be indicative of the Not Scum results since they would be in limbo at night and not scum until day start

Can you like, rephrase this or something? As interesting as it sounds, I have no clue what you're trying to get across. Particularly the bold.

[Desperado]

Tayter has had some scum and some town moments, with town winning out at a 3:1 margin. They were untouchable town in fact before Nat "cleared" them. Therein lies the problem though. "Not Scum" isn't the same as "Innocent". It's just not scum. Usually this would imply third party, but the SK has already been dealt with and this is a smallish game. I'm not assigning this to town without one HELL of a good reason.

I can see them as being Neighborized if Wisdom and Mantis flip scum with a Neighborizer between them because that could be indicative of the Not Scum results since they would be in limbo at night and not scum until day start

Can you like, rephrase this or something? As interesting as it sounds, I have no clue what you're trying to get across. Particularly the bold.

[Desperado]

I already explained why I hammered. Care you respond to that or are you just going to sling mud?

[Desperado]

Why mollie? Were you really swayed by Wisdom's dumbass bout with paranoia at the end of the day?

[Desperado]

Also this claim does not pass the smell test

How doesn't it?

[Desperado]

Desp. Man, you started off town and soon became untouchable. If it weren't for the rest of your team calling attention to themselves enough for me to read their ISOs separate and together three times a piece, I wouldn't have noticed the lack of significant interaction between the other two and you. Sure, you guys have cross voted. Wisdom even did a weak push on you that lasted a couple of pages (while he was pushing harder on Nat) and you on him, but the trajectory and follow through is void. You're scum this game, but I sure enjoy playing with you!

Again, what the fuck are you talking about? Wisdom is dead and flipped town.

[Desperado]

Desp & Nati: do you have any qualifiers to your roles?

Nope. I can follow one person each night and learn who they visited.

[Desperado]

When Cop hits townie, they get an INNOCENT result. Nati got a NOT SCUM result. That's a world of difference and all that really matters in the Pertayter spoiler. Thanks for zeroing in on something that's completely moot now that Wisdom flipped town though Desp. Scum wouldn't do something like that, now would they?

...unless I misread what you said, you were saing Wisdom and I were partners. Which is why I asked you to clarify.

[Desperado]

Also, Nat got "not scum" because she made her report up.

Pertayter is definitely town though.

[Desperado]

If u killed wizzy I'm going to come after you

Very, very, very slowly

<3333 start talking NOW

Desp why did u pick huntress and then mantis?

Slimer seemed like a good candidate for the scum N1 kill
Mantis was scummy and a town-town neighborhood (not masons) doesn't make much sense.

Shit, actually.

UNVOTE:

Desp, are you sure you have your targets right?

Yes.

Also this claim does not pass the smell test

How doesn't it?

because you've been obvious scum all day yesterday!

Come on, desp. I know you wouldn't just disappear!

I was writing up a case in a different game.

[Desperado]

@ Serra: Because Huntress was now occupying that slot and it played into my decision to hammer them.

[Desperado]

Not leaving crumbs isn't suspicious.

[Desperado]

Not leaving crumbs isn't suspicious.

[Desperado]

Not leaving crumbs isn't suspicious.

It does, however, lend credence to claims.

No it doesn't. Scum are just as capable of crumbing as town.

Why are you so desperate for towncred?

[Desperado]

wayne, if Desp is scum, he just killed himself with that claim.

Why would he do that? Especially since according to you, he wasn't in really in danger of getting lynched for d1 or d2.

Mantis lynch is the correct lynch for today.

I've already answered this twice. This is the last time and I'll make it big and bold so you can't miss it this time.

BECAUSE IT WOULD TAKE THE GAME TO MYLO WITH NO FLIPPED SCUM. FROM THERE IT'S STATISTICALLY HIGHLY IMPROBABLE FOR TOWN TO WIN. THE PROPER QUESTION IS WHY WOULDN'T HE. IT HAS ALL THE SCUMOTIVATION IN THE WORLD TO DO SO.

VOTE: Desparado

If everyone is hellbent on ending this day after just 2 hours or so of conversation, this is the right vote

Do you not see any town motivation for what I'm doing?

[Desperado]

Given what she did next I have no idea why you think that can't be distancing

@ Nat: You're basically saying "crumbing = town, no crumbing = scum" when you crumbed and I didn't. It isn't even subtle.

[Desperado]

I don't think that was the time to distance, to be honest.

Why? Do you really think a Mantis flashwagon was viable?

And the totally dropped it on the next page with no prompting, even though you voted with her.

[Desperado]

He wouldn't know what night action Mantis took, only who he hypothetically targeted. Wisdom was such a turd, I'm sure he would have had all kinds of targeting N2. The way Desp came in with the go!go!go! Kind of tone reeks of scum. That's undeniable.

Are you fucking shitting me. We already had a BG flip. The odds of a 3rd visiting town role are extremely low. And Mantis had already claimed not to have an action, so...

[Desperado]

I don't think that was the time to distance, to be honest.

Why? Do you really think a Mantis flashwagon was viable?

And the totally dropped it on the next page with no prompting, even though you voted with her.

Totally. Peng did have intent to hammer on her not much later...

What? The posts you just gave had Mantis with 3 votes, and Nat unvoted her and voted you in 602

[Desperado]

Crumbing has nothing to do with scumminess-you brought your own grave on that--but it does give credence to claims. I was crumbing from day one. Yes, scum can crumb too, but do you deny that it makes you believe a claim any more?

Yes, I deny it. Anyone who is swayed to believe a claim because the claimer crumbed their role is setting themselves up for failure.

[Desperado]

Then stop sounding so fake, mantis! :/

@wayne: mantis claimed not to have a night-action. Stop being stupid.

That was a hypothetical. I even said hypothetical. That's to illustrate the Desp would have no clue what his target did, just who he targeted. Now don't twist my words or I might think you're trying to trick me.

Your hypothetical doesn't mean jack shit because Mantis had already claimed not to have an action, and the possibility of a 3rd visiting town role is low enough that it isn't worth consideration. For all intents and purposes, I know Mantis killed Wisdom.

[Desperado]

Nat, I think the salient point is that you had to edit in your unvote, meaning you were ready to move on from Mantis but got surprised by the support and couldn't afford to get cold feet. The entire exchange was really awkward and your "holy shit I think we're on to something here" in particular reads like scum trying to hedge (which you did later).

[Desperado]

Also, you knew Mantis would be able to claim neighbor with Wisdom and dodge the lynch, so I'm really not concerned with your behavior there

[Desperado]

My big deal with Desp's tracker claim is this

"The Tracker is an informative role that can target a player at Night and learn who, if anybody, that player targeted the same night (but not the action the player performed).
Trackers have been seen as each alignment.
This version of Tracker, and only this version of Tracker, is considered Normal on mafiascum.net."

He wouldn't know what night action Mantis took, only who he hypothetically targeted. Wisdom was such a turd, I'm sure he would have had all kinds of targeting N2. The way Desp came in with the go!go!go! Kind of tone reeks of scum. That's undeniable.

Impossible. Mantis had already claimed neighbor.

Desp knew that mantis cannot possibly visit anyone if Mantis was telling the truth about his role.

Therefore, Desp knew that he had a guilty coming into d3.

Reply?

There's nothing which precludes neighbor from having an addition role other than the fact that Mala told me this is a normal game. By your own statement, Mantis couldn't target anybody for anything and Wisdom did flip neighbor, ergo Mantis is also neighbor. Mantis could be scum, yes but if he's neighbor he probably doesn't get to input the kill. That would most likely be some other team scum member.

Neighbor isn't an active ability and would have no relevance to who can perform the kill.

[Desperado]

Right, a position that you knew would never gain any traction. Until now anyway.

[Desperado]

Right, a position that you knew would never gain any traction. Until now anyway.

Then why didn't I lynch serra?

Fuck if I know?

Scum do inexplicable things all the time.

[Desperado]

Hey Bert you plan on taking a stance any time soon?

[Desperado]

Or we could just lynch scum in Desparado and find more scum tomorrow. He would have already called me scum for all the doubt I threw on him if he wasn't scum.

Nope, you replaced mollie, who was town town town town town. You also make 0 sense as a Mantis/Nat partner. This is really weak reasoning.

also Desp, who do you say my partners are then? you're rolling with Nat as one. how about the other??

Penguin. Already said it earlier, you sure you're reading?

Right, a position that you knew would never gain any traction. Until now anyway.

Then why didn't I lynch serra?

Fuck if I know?

Scum do inexplicable things all the time.

couldn't come up with a reason quick enough, eh?

Nat was asking me why she didn't do something. I'm supposed to have an answer for that question?

[Desperado]

Lynching mantis is the best lynch for town today, hands down. It gives so much information to the town.

Mantis flips scum = Desp is town, and Nati is almost conf scum.

Mantis flips town = Desp is scum, and Nati + Potato is almost conf town.

Wayne, I'm not saying you should believe Desp.

I'm just saying that lynching Mantis will give us the most information.

have you looked at Desp's ISO? that might help in indicating beyond logic who should be the lynch today.
note at the beginning, he randomly throws out town reads. the one that got me most was calling havingfitz town for this post
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5192817

then randomly states out of nowhere that Bert, Tater and I should be lynched. while in the meantime, he had not even had conversation with Tater or I.
i can produce more scum-desp stuff, but am running out of time soon

I already responded to these points once, pretty sure you ignored them.

Mantis, Nat, and Penguin. Take it to the bank.

[Desperado]

Or we could just lynch scum in Desparado and find more scum tomorrow. He would have already called me scum for all the doubt I threw on him if he wasn't scum.

Nope, you replaced mollie, who was town town town town town. You also make 0 sense as a Mantis/Nat partner. This is really weak reasoning.

Yes that would put you in a tight spot to flip that read, but since most people call me a VI since they can't follow my logic you could have always used the replace in of a "weaker" player player and that Mollie was too good for you to read but that some people were onto her at the end of D2 standby. Too bad that's lost to you now, but you coulda. You didn't though, ergo you're scum.

Are you seriously suggesting there's only one thing that I would have done as town, and I didn't do it so I'm scum?

[Desperado]

bert - you should listen to your gut. not too mention, i think it would be awesome to see scum-Desp's plan fail !!

keep trying Desp
you have made no mention of Peng at all, before this.

Also, with the SK flip and the tracker claim, I'm pretty much 100% positive Nati is mafia cop at this point.

Yup. Huntress' flip confirmed that for me. Who is the 3rd do you think?

I think it's penguin.

[Desperado]

@ wayne: /shrug OK

@ Mantis: moving goalposts. Please die.

[Desperado]

Because you as town with people following your word on your tracker result with all of a sudden a lone detractor other than the subject of your attention should logically only be viewed as scum. If you were town. You faltered. By not immediately casting that doubt back on me you showed a non town motivation because you know I'm town and were lost for words.

Player pole: you're a town investigative role with a guilty of some sort and have support growing rapidly based on that result to start the day. All of a sudden another player whose town status was slipping at the end of the previous day comes in and derails that train. What's your immediate reaction?

Mollie's town status only slipped in wisdom's dumb, paranoid eyes. You've obviously read my ISO: did you see any point where my townread on mollie wavered?

No.

[Desperado]

Allegedly*

[Desperado]

I also read you in context Desp, not just your ISO. And I also ISO'd you Mantis and Wisdom together which I thought was the most likely scum team and the joint ISO read made that an even higher probability, though Serra or FG could replace Wisdom should Wisdom flip town. Which he did.

You should be voting Mantis then.

[Desperado]

#1 you didn't even say that
#2 it's because if you somehow mistakenly conclude that I'm scum bussing, mantis is still more likely to flip scum than I am from your POV

I don't care if your process is bad, I just want to make sure you arrive at the proper result. Which is giving Mantis rope.

[Desperado]

Right, but then you started suggesting that I could be scum bussing Mantis. Which means there are three scenarios at play from your POV, two of which end with mantis being scum. So you should be voting Mantis.

[Desperado]

Nope. Just one. And it doesn't change that you're my number 1. And you as good as claimed scum by not calling me scum from my first post if you are town.

Whatever you say pal.

[Desperado]

Yeah I don't think potato is scum. I just think mara is not thinking.

Come again?

Your posts today have expressed a feeling of not

understanding what is going on.

seeing it my way.

FTFY

[Desperado]

It's true. Nat is saying Mara isn't reading because she has a different perspective. It's really scummy.

[Desperado]

Why are you asking Mara a question I already answered?

[Desperado]

...wayne you realize 2/3 of your nulls are scum right? And if you think Nat is town, that means you think tayter is town. Which means you think its me, Mantis, and FakeGod. What's with that bullshit list?

[Desperado]

But. I won't vote until I hear from Desperado why he hammered someone who he saw visit a player who didn't then die. If I missed it, please point it out for me. There's a metric ton of irrelevant stuff here, from figuring out what Mala said in the OP to recapping objective facts of Day Two.

With Nat outed I assumed it was Tracker/Cop vs Goon-Goon-PR and that I had found the scum PR. I hammered her because I would have regardless of their claim.

[Desperado]

Wow. Well done Penguin and Bert. You killed it there.