Mini 387: Suicide Bombers, GAME OVER (at last)!

[Jack]

Doctor presumably.

I'll read the rest of the thread and then vote for someone.

[Jack]

I find it odd that no-one has died, although I've never played any mafia variations before. Any ideas, anyone?

Vote:molestargazer

for role fishing.

[Jack]

What do you mean by role fishing? Never heard that term.

However, I'm not asking for people's roles - far from it. I'm just musing aloud, if you like.

If you were mafia you'd think "oh, someone blocked my kill today, I wonder who that person with a kill blocking role is". Then you post:

I find it odd that no-one has died, although I've never played any mafia variations before. Any ideas, anyone?

And hope to gain some clues from who posts to speculate.

[Jack]

Ok, reading the thread I find

molestargazer

and

pablito

to be the most suspicious. I don't buy mole's noobness, he says he bothered to watch the flash tutorial thing and has played a game before but doesn't know omgus or lot's of other things. He also posts a lot without accusing people.

I find pablito more suspicious though, so

unvote, Vote:pablito

. I wouldn't be surprised if he's partners with mole (some comments C_D made earlier about a connection between them). Sherlock was acting scummy and then asked to be replaced (not sure how damning kelly's replacement tell is, but it's interesting). Pablito posts this right away:

But most of all I really don't like Sherlock's posts. But I'm not going to vote him. Seriously Sherlock looked the scummiest to me on the re-read. Tried to make mountains out of molehills.

It seems like found out he replaced scum and is desperately trying to shrug off the suspicion that Sherlock had attracted. He also posted a lengthy defense of his earlier post on page 8 which seems to have been unprompted.

I'll also

FoS:Kelly Chan

for making a really long argument that I disagreed with.

[Jack]

...

your saying you had no intentions of any sort and were just joking around?

[Jack]

I'll also

FoS:Kelly Chan

for making a really long argument that I disagreed with.

If you disagreed with it, could you summarize what it was about?

This question is for anybody.

You were going after c_d for an argument which was an attempt to get some discussion going--you thought the argument was poor and this indicated c_d was scum, I think it's much more likely that scum would have let things go with no talking. I've done the same thing when discussion is waning.

[Jack]

Why the central scrutinizer?

[Jack]

Well pablito says he just wants you to comment. It's mole who says you are scummy, which is itself scummy to me.

[Jack]

Well pablito says he just wants you to comment. It's mole who says you are scummy, which is itself scummy to me.

Why is this scummy?

I have decided that I don't want to lynch inactives or lurkers. I cannot pick out who is scummy myself - even after TCS's excellent post. I decide to vote for the person who helps out least - at least then, if the lynch does go through and Masterchief is town, it won't be as big a loss as if we lynched a very active and thoughtful townie.

Because it's not really useful to lynch someone who "wouldn't be a great loss" we have to try and lynch scum.

This whole thing looks like a witch hunt.

[Jack]

Well pablito says he just wants you to comment. It's mole who says you are scummy, which is itself scummy to me.

Why is this scummy?

I have decided that I don't want to lynch inactives or lurkers. I cannot pick out who is scummy myself - even after TCS's excellent post. I decide to vote for the person who helps out least - at least then, if the lynch does go through and Masterchief is town, it won't be as big a loss as if we lynched a very active and thoughtful townie.

Because it's not really useful to lynch someone who "wouldn't be a great loss" we have to try and lynch scum.

This whole thing looks like a witch hunt.

Fos: Jack

What do you think we are, stupid? Mafia

is

a "witch hunt." That's the point of the bloody game.

No it isn't, look up witch hunt. We don't say "Burn the Witch!!!!!!" and then rush someone off to gallows after they don't float or some nonsense. Which is the equivalent of what's happening to masterchief. I don't think it's productive.

[Jack]

Would it be harmful for me to say that half of the reason I started the wagon is to incite pressure on MC who I believe to be pro-town and the other half of the reason was to see who would join and how others would react?

Granted this is something townies do, but it's also an easy way for scum to distract the town. You were being accused prior to starting the masterchief wagon I believe, and the fact that mole is going along with it makes me think it's a scum diversion tactic.

[Jack]

unvote, Vote:molestargazer

For reasons in my original post. Pablito is at least getting people talking and my suspicion about his motives for saying he thought sherlock suspicious could be off base.

[Jack]

lol @ pablito...

If I ever mod a game, I'm going to give someone a role with the post restriction that they have to change their vote every five posts or be modkilled... lol. I like this idea.

You don't like him voting Kelly Chen, is that it?

[Jack]

pablito, I don't know what reaction you think you can get when you tell me ahead of time you just want the reaction.

...

This one maybe?

[Jack]

Enough with the "I'll reveal the reason later" stuff.

[Jack]

Why did you unvote masterchief?

[Jack]

Sooooo, you think he's scummy but you're going to wait and see what the popular opinion is and then go with that?

[Jack]

No, you didn't say that. I misread

[Jack]

Yes, let's keep it moving.

[Jack]

Pablito

: Sherlock was acting scummy and asked to be replaced. Pablito felt the need to exclaim several times how scummy he thought Sherlock had acted.

molestargazer

seems to be terrified of taking an unpopular position.

Kelly Chen

got into that long argument that I disagreed with and just seems scummy.

So basically, not much has changed since I first replaced into this game.

I'd like to hear Kelly Chen.

[Jack]

So... am I the first or the last to realize that there are no true "mafia" in this game? I just did a reread, and I don't think the reason that we didn't lose a person last night was a doc protect. "Madbomber" isn't just a title for mafia... all the mafia are Bombers, and if we lynch the person they planted a bomb on, they kill another townie.

Man, I feel stupid. Am I the only one who didn't know this?

...

That'll teach me to read the game description more carefully.

[Jack]

The whole "twito voting for ubertimmy" thing is pretty WIFOM.

[Jack]

I'd like a show of hands as to who had noticed the bomber game mechanic before TCS mentioned it.

[Jack]

@Jack - I would still like to know what you intended in post 355. What did you think you misread?

I took "embrace the views of others" to mean follow popular opinion. He said it meant "accept that they don't find him suspicious and move on to another suspicious candidate" which is something a townie would do. I'm not sure he really meant that in his first post, but it was probably my mistake so I let it go. Most of his other posts do something similar to what I accused him of so there is no need for that particular instance.

[Jack]

Maybe pablito is trying to save MSG.

[Jack]

Yes, if you want to think so, I am somewhat trying to save MSG. It's just that every single time I in previous games I've seen a large group of people jump on one suspect (and no one bothers to defend that one suspect), with one exception - being Nightcow in Lights Out 1 - it has ended up with a pro-town lynch.

What about ubertimmy?

[Jack]

I did a reread.

unvote

I'm finding molestargazer more noobish than scummy now.

TCS and Kelly are my main suspects.

Kelly:

Noticed this exchange:

1)Molestar: what does omgus mean?
2)Kelly explains omgus
3)other post
4)other post
5)other post
6)C_D explains omgus
9)Twito:why repeat explanation?
10)C_D: skimmed thread
11)Kelly: "

good work Twito.

Confirm Vote:CD

"

what? This especially, but the whole argument there is scummy from Kelly Chen. She hems and haws a bit before explaining why she thinks C_D is suspicious, and her eventual reason is blatantly false. Then she starts putting words in C_D's mouth. Smells strongly of contrived argument.



Also, I think Kelly and TCS are doing some clear distancing. Kelly votes TCS but doesn't provide a reason--with no reason a bandwagon is doubtful. TCS puts down Kelly and pablito as his most suspicious but shortly after drops it to go after lurkers, in a post agreeing with pablito. TCS has some bad logic when questioned on the lurker pursuit.


TCS votes kelly chen and unvotes insome post

TCS:Actually, I'd love to lynch Kelly Chen. You want to wagon?
TCS:We can vote together, it'll be like real team-building and shit.

never votes her.

They both put eachother as number one on their lists.

TCS:I think Kelly Chen is scum, vote:kelly chen
next page
TCS:the main reason I'm voting for Kelly Chen IS basically an OMGUS

TCS calls for compromise and vote of MSG. Trying to get out of the scum voting eachother pattern. Kelly is open to the possibility.

TCS goes for lurkers again.

Kelly:I'm starting to feel happier with a mole lynch than a TCS one.
TCS:We might as well lynch a lurker, if we've got no other consensus.


It looks to me like they are both scum. They went from being each others number 1 suspect to desperately searching for a "compromise" candidate.

Vote:Kelly Chen

[Jack]

I started the post as a write up on Kelly, but during my reread I turned up some stuff. I hadn't considered TCS before that.

I'd be happy with lynching either.

[Jack]

Eh, if there were only two scum it would throw a wrench through the wheels of my theory for sure.

The OP says "each night they place a

bomb

on somebody" though. Bomb singular. So I'd bet there are three.

[Jack]

I mean, honestly, any vote I cast on someone who has voted or FOS'd me is automatically an OMGUS even if there's a legitimate reason?

Your vote for me didn't make much sense. For me to be distracting the town I must not have liked the way the towns thinking was going. This would mean that you are claiming I'm partners with either molestargazer or one of the lurkers. But you don't make a case for that connection.

[Jack]

I mean, honestly, any vote I cast on someone who has voted or FOS'd me is automatically an OMGUS even if there's a legitimate reason?

Your vote for me didn't make much sense. For me to be distracting the town I must not have liked the way the towns thinking was going. This would mean that you are claiming I'm partners with either molestargazer or one of the lurkers. But you don't make a case for that connection.

No, it doesn't mean that at all. You could be the only mafia left. None of us are 100% sure about the game mechanic... well, there are probably one or two that are.

You could easily be partners with any person in this game. Limiting your possible partners to MSG or the lurkers doesn't make sense. Hell, you could be scum alone. But whatever. Your actions seem like scum trying to distract the town from widening the search past myself or KC. Like I said, whatever. Maybe I'm totally off-base. Kelly might be mafia after all and I've made a big mistake in not getting on her wagon. Or maybe I'm just voting to see how people respond to it.

No, look, if I was alone why would I try to distract the town if they weren't trying to lynch me? I don't think I was on anyones list. I would be just letting the town do their thing. If I had a partner, I could maybe be trying to protect them by distracting the town, but that would mean they were in danger of being lynched at the time I posted that. There's no point in distracting the town if they're doing what you want.

Unvote, Vote:TCS

[Jack]

Someone lynch him already. He's sounding scummier with every post.

Mole says this "This seems like a very town reaction to me, noting the fact that if he dies and it helps to lynch scum, he wins with the town. If I were mafia, it's not something that I would do - especially if we were getting closer than ever to deadline and the town needed a lynch. "

And TCS jumps right away to self vote, thinking his strategy of playing the pessimistic townie is working.

[Jack]

Seriously, guys, you should really take a look at Jack tomorrow. I'm just sayin' bro.

Because?

@pablito: same question.

[Jack]

Seriously, guys, you should really take a look at Jack tomorrow. I'm just sayin' bro.

Jack seems to be actively hunting scum on all fronts. Probably the most town person in my eyes right now.

Sometimes it takes a complete outsider to analyze the game best.

[Jack]

I thought it was funny. What parts do you agree with?

[Jack]

I still feel MSG is more likely to be plain newbie than newbie scum.

[Jack]

Hmm after rereading some of MSG's posts here and in newbie 281 I'm going to

Unvote, Vote:MoleStarGazer

I think I was mixing up "genuine newbie" and "innocent newbie". TCS, probably still. Kelly Chen is seeming more town which takes away any distancing factor.

[Jack]

I think I was mixing up "genuine newbie" and "innocent newbie". TCS, probably still. Kelly Chen is seeming more town

which takes away any distancing factor.

Jack, between whom did this "distancing" factor exist? KC and who? Jojo?

KC and TCS.

[Jack]

Hmm after rereading some of MSG's posts here and in newbie 281 I'm going to

Unvote, Vote:MoleStarGazer

I think I was mixing up "genuine newbie" and "innocent newbie". TCS, probably still. Kelly Chen is seeming more town which takes away any distancing factor.

I was just confused about this post, that's why I asked Jack that question. He talks about MSG primarily, but in the next paragraph, he talks about newbie - which I thought was referring to MSG. Next sentence there's a slight reference to TCS which I don't understand. It really greys the cutting board there. Then he talks about KC. I thought that Jack was talking about KC and MSG distancing, but thinking that KC was town and MSG was not. That's why I had to ask. If not, it would just be camel fat to feed the masses. I still don't get why TCS is only so slightly mentioned here. It's as if Jack has to explain how he's settled on MSG from his list of three and is trying to say that TCS and KC are no longer looking as scummy...but the way it happens is just too confusing.

I said "TCS, probably still." and left off "scum" at the end.

My original list of three was MSG, you, and kc. People were mentioning TCS a lot so I did a reread. I noticed what I thought was distancing. It might be, it might not be. I also thought people were saying that MSG's newbie act was faked, and didn't agree. TCS has acted scummier than KC without the distancing. On another reread my suspicions of MSG have been rekindled.

[Jack]

vote: MSG

Camel fat is what they serve in kebabs in the middle east. It's cheap and plentiful.

Why the vote?
Seems slightly odd to vote for me just because I didn't know about Camel fat.

err he's been voting you for a while.

[Jack]

err he's been voting you for a while.

So he has.
OK, I'll rephrase it.

Why'd you have to say it again when you're already voting?

...he'd unvoted briefly.

*MOD EDIT*

The VOTE COUNT - 6 to lynch

5 molestargazer (HackerHuck, Brutal Assassin, The Central Scrutinizer, Jack, pablito)
3 The Central Scrutinizer (Kelly Chen, Save The Dragons, chaotic_diablo)
1 Brutal Assassin (Twito)
Not Voting: Dead Rikimaru, molestargazer,

[Jack]

Mole, KC, and pablito were my initial suspects. I started thinking mole was a genuine newbie at some point and got hooked up on the kc-tcs thing which was apparently bogus. I don't see why you think I'd vote TCS or Mole at that point in the game though.

[Jack]

Mole, KC, and pablito were my initial suspects. I started thinking mole was a genuine newbie at some point and got hooked up on the kc-tcs thing which was apparently bogus. I don't see why you think I'd vote TCS or Mole at that point in the game though.

You were voting mole at that point and you moved your vote to me when you made an argument that TCS and I were scum together. How can you say you don't see why I'd think you'd vote TCS or mole at that point?

At that point I thought you were a stronger case than TCS. I believe I changed not long after.

[Jack]

Jack, I'm not asking you why you voted me instead of TCS or staying on mole. I'm asking you why you said:

I don't see why you think I'd vote TCS or Mole at that point in the game though.

When it seems HIGHLY LIKELY that you might've voted TCS, or continued to vote for mole.

Ah I see. My full sentence should have been "I don't see why you think I (as scum) would vote TCS or Mole at that point in the game though."

[Jack]

If I had bombs, I'd blow up BA, Pablito, and Jack, and I'd be pretty sure we'd win the game. More so if KC and Twito got bombed as well.

Vote: BA

bad play, dude.

Vote:STD

As I remember it, BA practically got MSG lynched. Why don't you actually say what you think was a bad play?[/b]

[Jack]

I voted for both TCS and msg. That's the point of the game I was referring to. I don't get what you're driving at.

[Jack]

and of course,

unvote, vote: Jack

. I started reading Jack in late D2 and it's uber scummy. He was extremely apologetic on the behalf of MSG and he was also pushing TCS lynch very hard.

You were very anti-MSG lynch. TCS and MSG were tied when I switched over. I unvoted msg originally because I got caught up in something else, as I already explained.

TCS

was

acting scummy.

unvote

I need to think on this.

[Jack]

Now with quotes:

I'm still strongly against a MSG lynch for today.

Compared with my apparent "extreme apologism" which consisted of:

[quote="Jack]I still feel MSG is more likely to be plain newbie than newbie scum.[/quote]

Which was followed in a few hours with:

Hmm after rereading some of MSG's posts here and in newbie 281 I'm going to

Unvote, Vote:MoleStarGazer

I think I was mixing up "genuine newbie" and "innocent newbie". TCS, probably still. Kelly Chen is seeming more town which takes away any distancing factor.

Putting him at lynch -1, at which point pablito unvoted msg.

Pablito also says I was pushing the TCS lynch very hard, which I was. This is hardly unique to me, and doesn't make sense in the light that TCS had a bomb on him.

[Jack]

Twito's claim was a joke claim, yes?

[Jack]

Get away with what exactly? I don't see what scummy plan he would have had in mind with that.

[Jack]

Get away with what exactly? I don't see what scummy plan he would have had in mind with that.

I didn't say anything about scummy.

You voted him and said he was scum?

[Jack]

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:47 pm Post subject: 203 Reply with quote
VOTE COUNT
2 ubertimmy (Twito, Tamuz)
2 molestargazer (chaotic_diablo, Save The Dragons)
1 neongrey (ubertimmy, Kelly Chen)
1 Save The Dragons (The Central Scrutinizer)

Not Voting: neongrey, Dead Rikimaru, bird1111, molestargazer, pablito

Looking back at the ubertimmy lynch, KC's push for the neongrey lynch is interesting, now that we know

both

ubertimmy and msg were scum. She even corrects pablito on his random vote for msg.


**************

I don't really think you're scum, just wanted to make a point. You can read the voting record a lot of ways. I'm not saying it's useless, but it's rather wifom.

[Jack]

cop claim would make sense one the one hand, since it's seems the mafia couldn't kill him. But I believe the mod said that the town one "when the bombers were lynched and

there were townie power roles still alive

" so we certainly don't want him claiming, he'll get taken out when we lynch the last bomber. That's almost enough to get me to vote C_D.

[Jack]

cop claim would make sense one the one hand, since it's seems the mafia couldn't kill him. But I believe the mod said that the town one "when the bombers were lynched and

there were townie power roles still alive

" so we certainly don't want him claiming, he'll get taken out when we lynch the last bomber. That's almost enough to get me to vote C_D.

When and where did the mod say this?

Post 15:

This is a small issue I noticed while going through my notes, but I thought I'd bring it to your attention:

Most pro-town PMs say "You win when all bombers are dead." I'd like to rephrase that as "You win when all bombers are dead and at least one pro-town role remains".

That is all. As you were.

[Jack]

Sorry, it was mikeburn's 15th post. Was using the sort by user function.

[Jack]

Ok that makes more sense, I'm used to "pro-town role" referring to doc/cop what have you. Obviously if there are no townies left the town can't win.

I don't see the use in the cop claiming, maybe if it looked like we were going to lynch an innocent. Personally I really doubt there is a cop in this game, doesn't seem to work with the mechanic.

[Jack]

I'm not sure what the case against C_D is. The only thing I find scummy is the way he seemed upset that others weren't voting for Twito after his cop claim. The people who are voting him seem to have other reasons though.

[Jack]

It'd be cool to keep our perfect record.

[Jack]

Standard 12 player, with 3 mafia is over in 3 straight mis-lynches. If the bombers can place 1 bomb per night total, then this game would end with 4 straight mis-lynches (neither bomber nor bombed). Although if you ended up with one town and one bomber it would be a tie.

I think it's still balanced though, because after 3 mislynches the town has to choose from 9 people--harder than choosing from 8.

[Jack]

Because they aren't very smart? :p

They'd have put it on night one. I wasn't there so I can't really speculate. You'd think they'd put it on one of the people solidly on the ubertimmy wagon though.

[Jack]

I have tended to think it's because the scum were all inexperienced, or maybe inactive and not communicating. Due to this I think/thought Jack (repl bird) fits better than CD.

Although now that I look at it, Jack replaced in during night.

Oh hey what's this?
Jack wrote:
Because they aren't very smart? :p

They'd have put it on night one. I wasn't there so I can't really speculate.

OH REALLY...

oh really what? You contradicted yourself...

[Jack]

How so?

If I replaced during the night then the mafia were hardly inactive or not communicating.

[Jack]

The mafia put it on night one. I wasn't there (day 1) so I can't speculate about their choice of TCS--I'm not clear on who was most and least suspected day 1, I gave it a quick read through. Obviously from a townie perspective it doesn't make a difference whether you replace during night or during day, sorry I wasn't clear. It should be obvious from the 2 day time slot that I could have discussed.

The VOTE COUNT - 5 to lynch

3 chaotic diablo (Dead Rikimaru, Brutal Assassin, Kelly Chen)
3 pablito (HackerHuck, chaotic_diablo, Twito)

Not Voting: Jack, Save the Dragons, pablito

[Jack]

meh, maybe they put it on TCS to convince the town they were dumb. Thus KC is the guilty one :/

This gets us nowhere.

[Jack]

I reread and see the case for C_d now.

This part I found interesting:

Vote:Sherlock

Why are you voting that Chaotic?

Just to get things moving.

Well..
Random votes often end up in lynching a townie.. so I'm not going to do that..

What else is there to say?

He establishes that random voting is bad. Yippee. Big clue, but wait!

I'd do a random dice roll on this forum, but I don't know how, so I'll have to random.org it.

How odd.. Random.org also says Twomz. So he must be scum. Rolling Eyes

Vote: Twomz

What the? He randomly votes even though he just said that he wouldn't. IMO, it has to do something with the "fat ugly mole" exchange he had with sherlock. As a result, there is a slight established connection.

The next big thing is MGS's rise to defend sherlock in post 31.

I see what you're saying - however pointing out that could just be letting people know.

In this case, MGS is telling us that sherlock's point is to inform us. However, just in the last page, sherlock accused both TCS and I of being "lynchers" with little evidence. This is tied in with sherlock's post 27 in that he subtly tells us to watch out for the "dangerous" people, TCS and I. Seriously, err on the side of caution? What sort of suggestion is "not voting?" In a way, I think MGS was trying to divert our attention from that aspect.

Later, MGS starts "lurking" like everyone else.

Well.. there's not much I can say.

I'm still watching though.

However, when I voted for a nonexistant sherlock, MGs immediatel rises to question me.

I'm here now.

What've I missed? Why are you voting that Chaotic?

It's difficult to vote someone who isn't here. There, he establishes a stronger connection.

That's about it.

unvote

if I need it

vote molestargazer

I quoted the whole post because I think it's important. When pressed by KC, who said the argument sounded contrived (I agree) and asked if it was to get things moving, C_D said it was intended to be weak and get things moving. BUT if you look in the context of the thread, I think the quote at the top "Just to get things moving" is an answer to MSG's question about C_D's sherlock vote, and not referring to his case against MSG at all. It looks like the msg case was contrived (distancing in this case) and when called on it he lied about it.

The rest of the day he spends defending himself, asking lurkers to post, and then hammers ubertimmy. This and other stuff has been gone over in the thread already.

He's also sounded a bit desperate today, especially during the twito joke claim thing.

Vote:Chaotic_diablo

lynch -1

[Jack]

unvote

I think I'll reread on pablito first. He seems to be studiously ignoring the fact that he's lynch -2 to appear innocent.

[Jack]

That post looked a lot like "see guys? If I was scum I would have hammered here! So I can't be, right?". Sure you could have hammered but the last bomber has to survive 4 lynches, he/she would need to appear as protown as possible.

I have to think about it.

[Jack]

I didn't say anything about mountains out of molehills--I posted the quote for a different reason.

[Jack]

That post looked a lot like "see guys? If I was scum I would have hammered here! So I can't be, right?". Sure you could have hammered but the last bomber has to survive 4 lynches, he/she would need to appear as protown as possible.

And as a player (regardless of my alignment), do I care enough to appear as protown as possible? Nah, I hope that much is evident. Therefore, when thinking of me, remember that I'm not cricket down the sporting.

In my experience when you're scum you make every effort to appear town.

I think you've deliberately set yourself up so you can wagon hop and change directions without people calling you on it.

In general scum don't play as bold or aggressive as you--I think you know that.

You're presence on the ubertimmy and msg wagons smells like scum lynching scumbuddy.

But, I really want to hear from C_D, who's lack of presence on the two wagons + things from my post I find much scummier.

[Jack]

A big thing for me is that Jack's posts might actually help catch scum. Whereas CD has posted very little that even commits him to an opinion.

I don't think "Just to get things moving." was supposed to be an explanation of the Sherlock vote though. I think some evidence for this is that the next day he wrote "You know, anyone can jump in right about now and at least tell me how my argument are stupid." The interpretation that the first line refers to the Sherlock vote doesn't seem very natural to me.

So I'm not sure what I think of post 807 (Jack's CD vote and explanation).

I can't see it any other way. He later gave a detailed explanation of why he thought sherlock was guilty--in response to you asking him about his sherlock vote. So we would have to believe that if he posts "Vote:sherlock" he is seriously suspicious of him, but if he makes a large post accusing msg with several follow up posts then it is just to get things moving.

@pablito: I'd like c_d to respond to my lynch -1 post.

[Jack]

I did challenge KC for that. That's because I originally read your msg accusation post as "to get things moving". But it now looks like it

wasn't

to get things moving. You didn't specifically address whether or not "just to get things moving." was in response to msg's question. Why not?

[Jack]

You do see how it looks like that though. msg asks a direct question

of you

, you have a sentence at the top of your post that would answer that question. The sentence ended in a period not a colon.

Also, when KC questioned you on your sherlock vote you gave reasoning, even though that was just a vote post, but you claimed you msg vote was for starting discussion. Why is that? Why did you ignore msg's question?

As for stating opinion as fact I said "it

looks

lie it wasn't to get things moving".

[Jack]

I don't believe you. You keep trying to duck out of answering questions. Your voting record is by far the most damning as well.

Vote:Chaotic_diablo

lynch -1

[Jack]

That makes no sense C_D, we have in my estimation 8 townies and one scum. Do you really expect us to believe that the dwindling of discussion is the scum letting you be lynched?

[Jack]

I've already explained and said why you are scummy. You're answers were not to my satisfaction--they were the equivalent of "no I'm not scum".

My voting record is fine whatever KC seems to think.

[Jack]

Vote:pablito

[Jack]

Unvote

Need to think about it.

[Jack]

I'd say DeadRik and StD look worst, given the vote count when MSG was lynched. If you think about it, MSG's lynch meant the mafia couldn't win.

[Jack]

ebwop:

Vote:Save The Dragons

Dead rik was at least on the ubertimmy wagon.

Not sure if we need to make it more complicated than this. But I'll reread in a few days once term is over.

[Jack]

I'd rather we lynch you instead.

:eyebrows:

[Jack]

*lurks to annoy pablito*

[Jack]

I'm assuming the work together, and I also thought they could only place one bomb collectively. Otherwise two mislynches at start of game and we lose.

[Jack]

I'm going to

Vote:SaveTheDragons

This game is really hard with all the replacements.

[Jack]

I have not acted suspicious in the slightest, and anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

[Jack]

It's hard to keep track of who's town or scum when they keep getting replaced.

I voted std for where he was on the 2 scum wagons.

[Jack]

Your strange musical analogies confuse me.

[Jack]

*post containing nothing*

[Jack]

No

When you guys start discussing whether to hammer or not, you will undoubtedly come across the fact that NO ONE HAS MADE A CASE AGAINST ME.

[Jack]

Now that I think of it

unvote,Vote:pablito

For reasons mentioned a while ago, do a search. He admitted to it basically.



Also, due to recent events proving my innocence, I expect you all to unvote me.

[Jack]

You people are lazy.

[Jack]

Is anyone going to actually say why they think I'm scum? Other than "it's either jack or hackerhuck vote:jack"

[Jack]

Yeah, that doesn't make sense at all. Where on earth did you get the idea that townies don't give up? What makes you think I've given up? I can't argue when no one presents a case.

To the best of my knowledge I answered all of the arguments last round, to everyones satisfaction.

[Jack]

I didn't say anything about mountains out of molehills.

I voted MSG most of the day, and switched when I got hung up on the kelly chen/tcs thing. I switched back when I read one of msg's past games. There's really nothing of significance there. At the time I went after kc/tcs you were loudly defending msg, remember? I said all this yesterday and you couldn't answer it.

[Jack]

I reread when BA made his post and questioned me on something regarding msg. Or someone questioned me.

[Jack]

A thing or two

Because they aren't very smart? :p

They'd have put it on night one.

I wasn't there so I can't really speculate.

You'd think they'd put it on one of the people solidly on the ubertimmy wagon though.

I still find this comment fishy. If Jack is trying to say he wasn't around N1 (which I think is what he's trying to say), it isn't clearly true. And whether that's what he meant or not, it's a very strange thing to say.

We talked about this already.

What made Jack vote for CD, and the beginning of some discussion on this leading up to here
It looks to me that Jack was eager to provide adequate-sounding reasoning in order to get on CD. In no time (under a day) his vote looks pretty final. I get a similar feeling from Jack's vote for TCS (here, followed later with this one), prior to switching to MSG (lynch -1 "after rereading some of MSG's posts here and in newbie 281"). With CD in particular, I'm not sure Jack's reasoning (and interaction with him) is very persuasive.

This isn't an argument. Your feelings are not persuasive. What do you want me to say, "no, actually, you

don't

feel that way"?

Since then Jack has voted STD for where he was on the two scum wagons, and pablito for admitting to being scum or something (?). He says recent events prove his innocence (?). That is some weirdness I'd like explained. I may be lazy but I don't remember this stuff happening.

I had reasons I found pablito suspicious for certain behavior and he said his behavior did appear like that. The recent events thing was just me goofing around.

Statements like "no one has made a case against me" and "I already answered all the questions" strike me as scummy. And pretty silly considering Jack's cases against the people he's been voting for.

Why are they scummy? The truth isn't scummy. My cases are actually present.

[Jack]

Arrogance is a scum tell.

Merely stating this is not an argument.

[Jack]

As vinegar to the teeth and smoke to the eyes, so is the lazy man to those who send him.

[Jack]

They are prerequisites for being lynched, if you want to play the game right that is.

[Jack]

Well that inclines me to take twito, HH, and STD as innocent.

[Jack]

Oh the wireless was out.

I was thinking that scum would have hammered for sure.

[Jack]

Well I was thinking scum would hammer. But now I'm not so sure. If they thought they could get me lynched today easy they might just wait a night to plant another bomb.

[Jack]

What makes you think I'm scum BA?

[Jack]

I have over a hundred posts. I wasn't given reasons for my accusations, so had no choice but treat them lightly. One cannot treat seriously non existent charges.

It is hard to pursue scum when everyone thinks you are scum and is trying to lynch you.

[Jack]

Like anyone would listen to me. People just accuse you of making something up to save yourself. But I guess it shows "lack of real effort". Damned if I do damned if I don't.

[Jack]

He was good earlier in the game at throwing jabs here and there. But I don't like many of his votes. His early MSG votes do not seem very consequential when you consider that he was the only vote, and that he got off of him just by saying he was finding him "more noobish than scummy now." (And he reversed this opinion as easily when MSG was up to four votes.)

Though, I am thinking that if Jack is scum, this probably isn't lylo. I don't see him still acting all resigned if it were.

4 scum would be overpowered, and the coloring of the two lynched bombers coincides with the primary colors(red-yellow-blue). I can't see there being anything other than three scum.

So you would have to believe that I was resigned to not winning the game at the end of round two and switched my vote

when I had absolutely no reason to

.

[Jack]

That doesn't follow. Just because you think I was more active before the msg lynch then after isn't evidence that I'd given up. You could just as easily say I thought this game was won since we'd nailed 2 scum in a row. You still don't provide a reason for my resignation.

[Jack]

You said "however" which indicated that you were dismissing the point. If you can't dismiss the point...

[Jack]

Votes were about even between tcs and msg. I could have stayed on tcs no questions asked. Sure I might look suspicious if msg got lynched and I wasn't on the wagon, but according to you

I wouldn't care

, so I would have no reason to switch to msg.

btw, I never give up as scum.

[Jack]

THIS is the reason I feel he should be lynched today. Not to mention the fact that his actions yesterday/today have been incredibly flaky as has been stated numerous times.

Vote Jack

Hold on a sec, I need to speak with my lawyer.

[Jack]

Seriously BA, I can't believe you have the nerve to come in replacing

masterchief

and claim I'm scum from bird111's actions and for "not contributing".

You have a giant post listing a bunch of things I've done which you've somehow twisted into being suspicious. Most of it follows a format of "Jack did this. Sometime town do this. Sometimes scum do this. I think he's scum for it" which doesn't actually

say

anything.

I would like to hear exactly why you think my kc/tcs theory was so wrong.

I feel I made some points against MGS early. He was one of my main suspects all day until I got sidetracked with the tcs/kc thing

which forced me to consider him innocent

. I backed tracked on that completely uneccesarily a few pages later and helped lynch scum.

Just pausing for a moment to note that MSG, in most of the cases where he was attacked this game, replied with a bit more aggressive tone. This one is more passive and defensive. Onward....

This is completely false and shows BA didn't reread.

By the way, who's MGS?

The next big thing is MGS's rise to defend sherlock in post 31.

MGS wrote:
I see what you're saying - however pointing out that could just be letting people know.

In this case, MGS is telling us that sherlock's point is to inform us. However, just in the last page, sherlock accused both TCS and I of being "lynchers" with little evidence. This is tied in with sherlock's post 27 in that he subtly tells us to watch out for the "dangerous" people, TCS and I. Seriously, err on the side of caution? What sort of suggestion is "not voting?" In a way, I think MGS was trying to divert our attention from that aspect.

I was actually saying that in regards to that post only - not a word was said or thought about when it came to the 'other' posts.

What the? He randomly votes even though he just said that he wouldn't. IMO, it has to do something with the "fat ugly mole" exchange he had with sherlock. As a result, there is a slight established connection.

What's that got to do with anything?
I don't hold grudges. I don't see what that's got to do with anything. I'm slightly confused there with that 'connection' you're talking about.

OK, I admit, the random vote thing was my mistake. You read Newbie 281, you see how really quite awful my memory is - that was to my downfall, and I hope it doesn't this time.

The rest are like it.



I don't know why you all seem to be forgetting this:

StD - I'm unsure why exactly you want this list, however there's been nothing recently to suggest to me that you are scum.

Combined with StD's place on the two scum wagons it seems pretty obvious to me as I believe I've said before.



Anyway, BA, shall I now quote a bunch of masterchiefs posts citing how scummy it is that he isn't contributing and then a bunch of your posts attacking C_D when you had a

golden oppurtunity

to lynch the real scum but didn't? Hindsight is 20-20, no one has given any reasons for my pursuit of tcs/kc being bs or an explanation for my decision to drop it. I'm amazed you can take "Jack suspects scum, Jack stops suspecting scum and goes after other people (contributing, btw), Jack goes back to suspecting scum upon read of other game and votes to lynch said scum" THEREFORE JACK IS SCUM. Give me a break.

Vote:SaveTheDragons

[Jack]

You shouldn't include irrelevant stuff to pad your case then.

You haven't yet listed any problems with my kc/tcs case yet, which is odd because your case rests on the assumption that it was a sham.

I always mess around most of the day prodding and poking a bit and do a review before the end. So it isn't strange that I got sidetracked.

Tell me why I unvoted TCS.

What do you think of StD?

[Jack]

I agree BA's Jack vote feels scummy. I don't think there are that many points against Jack. I just think there are a few that are pretty convincing. One actually being his refusal to admit any merit to the case against him, which besides being infuriating and absurd is definitely what I would see scum doing as an easy way to defend himself. Just repeat over and over again "you guys have nothing on me."

That's all I can say until I reread this game. This is the last one I have to read though.

Well in my defense that's what I always do. I think pablito can attest to my being a bit stubborn from the 101 game.

I should reread before voting really.

unvote

[Jack]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[Jack]

blahgo got hammered before the crash or whatever it was.

Vote:blahgo

[Jack]

Yeah that bites.

[Jack]

Well I could go for STD or Kelly Chen or HackerHuck.

[Jack]

Oh yeah I remember what I was thinking earlier. I originally thought Kelly and TCS were scum distancing because Kelly had attacked TCS hard but then moved on for no apparent reason. Perhaps this was just kelly distancing herself from the bombed townie.

[Jack]

Also another thing about STD not lynching me, perhaps he figured I'd get lynched the next day and so it would be an easy way to place an extra bomb.

Also, this is lynch or lose unless we lynch one of the bombed players.

[Jack]

Well then when everyone rereads after one scum is lynched and the bombed townie is revealed to see who was trying to not lynched the bombed townie they look good.

7 alive

one bomb after msg lynch
one bomb after c_d lynch
one bomb after no lynch
one bomb after blahgo lynch

mislynch = another bomb

6 alive, one bomber, 5 bombed.

[Jack]

I don't really see how there would be any power roles.

[Jack]

Vote:STD

[Jack]

I notice you neither confirmed nor denied it, while simultaneously claiming to be "going level with me".

You'd make a good lawyer.

[Jack]

Oh god I'm sick of this game.

[Jack]

Kill:STD

why the hell not

[Jack]

Oh for heavens sake.

unvote,vote:kelly

[Jack]

How the hell did I miss that kelly wasn't on the MSG wagon? That was my whole reason for voting STD.

Kelly must be scum.

Confirm vote:Kelly

Also that makes this blatant hypocrisy:

his is useful since not only would scum not want to lynch fellow scum, they wouldn't have wanted to lynch TSC either. Very strange decision for a bomb target though.

Jack seems suspicious in this light. He didn't seem to want to lynch MSG until the end. When he presented his TSC-KC pair theory, he preferred to vote for me. (CD thought this was odd given the selected points, and Jack replied that he had started out writing about me. Look at what was going on then, and it seriously looks like this post was intended to try to avert a MSG lynch, but perhaps not in favor of a TSC lynch.)

The main thing I see against Jack opposing an MSG lynch is that Jack voted MSG for most of January ("For reasons in my original post", which back then were "I don't buy mole's noobness" and "He also posts a lot without accusing people"). But it looks like he was the only vote on MSG during this time, so I think it wasn't too dangerous.

[Jack]

The KC wagon.. meh. I find it slightly confusing, with no reasoning explained - and yet I can see why (If that makes sense!).

I'll be going out soon, and my daily Virus Scan's come up with a trojan horse downloader, so I'd better be off for now. I'll make my decision as to a lynch vote later - I don't think the MC one's going to work, and I want to help the town get a lynch. Perhaps some more evidence will come up whilst I'm out.

Also this.

[Jack]

Man I'm so retarded. I looked at the first two lynches and saw that STD was off the first and only hammered on the 2nd so I chose him, and completely missed that kelly wasn't on the MSG, which was the important one. Remember by lynching MSG the mafia

can't

win so of course they wouldn't be on the wagon. God damn.

[Jack]

No, once MSG is lynched the best mafia can hope for is a tie, since they can't nightkill.

The point is you didn't hammer him and you weren't on his wagon, you were still arguing for TCS.

[Jack]

Vote: Jack

There is something in the way he was almost lynched and not quite..

What does this mean?

[Jack]

There are three bombers. I know you've tried to make this doubted for a while, this is because you know what I'm saying is true. Four would be unbalanced and they are named after the primary colors. So once there is only one left, the only way any more townies will die is when the last scum is lynched and the bombs go off.

I've been saying for several rounds that the scum wouldn't have been on the MSG wagon and this is the first time you objected to it. You say it's scummy that I wasn't on his wagon; you weren't on his wagon. Then you say it's scummy that I got on his wagon, but as I've just explained scum would not have gotten on his wagon.

[Jack]

You were pushing the other candidate. You didn't give up on him.

[Jack]

Wtf@Jack's argument against Kelly :/

Where are you gathering that if MSG died, then the scum can't nightkill? Where did you decide that the scum could EVER nightkill?

You are confused. The scum never could nightkill, they can only kill when they are lynched, so when there is only one of them left they can't kill and still win the game.

[Jack]

I don't see how that information is remotely helpful.

[Jack]

Well no one has said they wanted to lynch Theo so why would he invent a claim at this point? You're just trying to draw attention away from yourself.

[Jack]

@Mod:

I was the dayvig if you've misplaced my role pm.

Traveling cross country, will be inactive until this weekend.

[Jack]

Seriously though has anyone any decent ideas as to how we're going to get anywhere with this game?

I do, it's called lynching kelly.

[Jack]

Seriously, just vote Kelly and end this goddamn game.

[Jack]

Why didn't you say so before?

[Jack]

Maybe because I did.

Well...MAYBE

[Jack]

kelly and hh are tied at 3, twito has the deciding vote.

[Jack]

It is tempting to unvote and vote Kelly just to end this torture.

However I'm not doing it . . .

You should...

[Jack]

What do you mean "worst case scenario, he's not a townie"? If he isn't a bomber he's a towie. That's a wicked scummy suggestion.

I've been assuming we're at lylo, only the bomber could know for sure.

[Jack]

that's strange. I remembered it being the other way around.

[Jack]

STD! Switch to kelly!

[Jack]

I need to work on being more convincing.