Mini 1397: War is Hell (Game Over)

[Tierce]

I'm about to ask Xalxe to elope with me

k let's move the cult to Portugal/Nevada/wherever the fuck you are now, I forget

Portugal. Here for about another month and a half, then Nevada. I do have an updated location field, y'know.

[Tierce]

I've unpacked, I'm just exhausted because of it all. It's past midnight, so bed it is.

[Tierce]

HEAL: Xalxe

Someone should give him another, and to Quilford as well. Though I'm coming around to

someone

being scum, and it not being Xalxe, it has to be someone. Frankly Quilford looks like a good option. Extreme doormat mode does not impress me.

Tomorrow, though.

[Tierce]

I think Tierce also has 5 rage

Four.

[Tierce]

Kinetic is blathering. Vote him.

What.

No seriously, what.

Someone makes a wall and your reaction is "flailing scum, lol"?

what the hell is this

Xalxe I hate this game. ._.

[Tierce]

Since it bothers me,

what

?

[Tierce]

Please forgive me, Lord Satan, for inciting the painful quote stripes. Torture in Hell is one thing, quote stripes quite another. I was so happy to not play with MoI, etc.

I am not reading this now and you will probably need a lot of my goodwill to force me to read it later.

[Tierce]

I'm female, Kinetic.

And you can whine about my waffling as much as you want. I'm trying to get things done asap.

[Tierce]

What a useful weekend you seem to be having, Quilford. I am impressed by your notion of weekend/week time, it's almost like there's a measurable note in your inactivity during the weekend too.

[Tierce]

Hey Zdenek, why are you asking that of a scumread? A scumread that you are apparently unwilling to meta more thoroughly than you have, if nothing else to prove one (other) scumread wrong? Seriously, you are saying Kinetic and I are scum, and the way that post read reeks of calling Xalxe scum as well. WTF?

And obviously that post of Xalxe's was tongue-in-cheek, but points back to the fact that Kinetic has been trying to

actually

make plans for Town. Solid attempts at gamebreak are more likely to come from Town than from scum.

[Tierce]

Kinetics actions around the Yos lynch are so obviously scum motivated that the fact that we aren't killing hom is fucking beyond me.

Oh right.

THE SAME ACTIONS I TOOK

So why on earth is Kinetic guilty for taking them and I'm not?

[Tierce]

THE SCUMMIEST THING IN THE GAME IS KINETIC PUSHING THE YOS LYNCH OVER LLD'S WHO HE KINETIC HAD A CLAIMED GUILTY ON

I mean, holy shit, this is ridiculous. kanye's claim was dubious to the point that only TODAY (game day) we got a definitive claim out of him, and you're censoring him for not accepting the guilty?

If anything, THAT should be evidence that Kinetic is Town. It's hard to continue pushing against something you have clear knowledge it's not true. If Kinetic KNEW, as scum, that LLD was scum and kanye actually had a guilty on her, do you think he could have faked it that long? I don't. And you know why? Because I'm Town and kkb's claim was FUCKING SKETCHY and weaselly when he made it re: LLD. Kinetic's reaction to that 'guilty' sounds BLOODY HONEST, and unless you're arguing that TWO SCUM PLAYERS (Kinetic and I) blatantly acted oblivious to the fact that LLD was scum with a claimed guilty on her (all the while while posting in an impressively sleep-deprived and nervous state, go scum-me, I am far more awesome than I would ever have expected in these people's eyes, it seems), you have to admit that there is a fairly high chance that

the reaction was honest and Townish, because Town had that reaction

. LLD didn't look like scum, Yos was in a position where timing and forum activity made him look like scum, one does not give a fuck about LLD and kkb's blathering.


All of my fury for this game.

[Tierce]

lolnope. No, Kinetic and Xalxe are the two people I am not going to vote right now, because they are the ones who continue looking like Town throughout this mess. The rest of you could just fall in a meat grinder at the same time and I would probably cheer out loud.

LOOK AT ME I REFUSE TO LOOK THROUGH TIERCE'S META WOOOO

I was more

pleasant

to play with in Author Mafia? Amazing how you forget how much I railed against you in ADwD and Dresden. But seriously, keep holding 'not pleasant enough' as a scum tell against me, when it's actually a huge Towntell when you bother to check my meta. Wait, no, we can't have that, and she's self-metaing here so obviously she can fake it. Yeeeeah that makes sense.

[Tierce]

Because Flay is not stupid and it's

a Split Roles/Motives game

. I see no need for the Town to have X, Y or Z of

anything

.

[Tierce]

...Have you ever read a scum game of mine?

Go on. I'll wait. There will be a quiz.

[Tierce]

The scum Ophan can detect Rage attacks. This is hardly

useless

, as it can be used to figure out who is depleted.

[Tierce]

Seriously. Go look at a scum game for a while. I am not at all proud of how bad my scum game is, and I wish this was false modesty.

[Tierce]

Why don't you just tell me how your scum game here is different from your scum game in Science Mafia. There's basically no chance that I'll get to looking at it more that what I've done until Thursday.

What "scum game here"? I'm not scum. You're asking me to make a distinction on how my play is different here than it was in SCIENCE!--is that it, or...?

[Tierce]

(I can barely remember SCIENCE!. ._. I know it was good, but I remember Town games better. ...look, can't I just give you Empire's meta read megapost on me? That is a good post, he was Town in the game he made it and was 100% spot-on--I think I said so after the fact.)

[Tierce]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4480821

This is, by

far

, the best analysis anyone has ever done of my play--and it showed by the fact that I completely clammed up after it and essentialy gave up on the game. And this is the person I've been wanting to fget in the game (Empire). Now, do you

seriously

think I would want someone like this coming into a scum game of mine?

Read that post. It's solid gold, he's better at meta than I'll ever be because he's far more patient with reading patterns than I am.

[Tierce]

(That's from a scum game, but it's not an ISO, it's just a post by the Empire-half of Cerulean.)

[Tierce]

I'd like to hear what you think the difference in your play are between this one and that one, but I'm pretty much okay with whatever information you want to provide.

You can't really be serious. ISO Kinetic for whenever he whines about me self-metaing, and you'll see me bringing up differences in my play.

There is a Portuguese expression that translates, literally, to "stuck for having a dog, stuck for not having one", which is this kind of stupid situation in which you can't win because

someone

will see whatever you do as

wrong

. I'm tired of describing my play, I have over 400 posts in this thread, go fetch.


-----


GreyICE's meta is not LLD's meta. LLD's over the top behavior is neutral-aligned (though I actually have a fair bit more of LLD-meta training now thanks to Empire, again). GreyICE's is scum-aligned. Not being the same person means the same scumtells do not apply. That's what it means to do meta research on a specific person; meta scumtells are not universal. For example, Thor and MoI will argue with people just for arguing as either alignment, but from most people, this is actually a scumtell, as it's evidence of a lack of scumhunting. Thor and MoI are dicks, and being dicks may make them scum, but does not make them mafia.

Do you see my point? The same size does not fit all.

[Tierce]

For example, I saw GreyICE and his bullshitting rage as scum in Maf.Maiden, a lot calmer as Town in Blood Bowl Mafia (ugh, that game); LLD was a ball of scum rage in Maf.Maiden, but she did the same as Town in Warlocks and Werewolves and in Destiny Mafia. Yes, she knows her Town meta and uses it to her advantage in scum games (good on her!). GreyICE either doesn't or definitely did not expect that knowledge being used against him in Dresden Mafia, and if you read his scum QT, he was utterly convinced Vi (funnily enough, I was the one making the majority of the posts on him) would never be able to lynch him even though we had him dead to rights on meta.

If Regfan is posting walls at 4 am, I know he's not scum. But if Faraday is showing whatever passes for Faradayan :effort: at the same hour, he might well be scum. Different people, different measures, different personalities. Meta is done not only to get a grasp on the player's

playstyle

but on their

personality

, and the mix of the two was what gave me GreyICE scum in Dresdenafia.


PEdit: Thanks! I was raking my brain for that one.

[Tierce]

Might as well--this has a few goodies in it on how to approach meta, if I say so myself (and it's considerably less condescending than my snipes at Zdenek in Dresdenafia when he was defending obvscum):

P-edit: @Tierce - I don't understand that distinction. My thinking is that anything that has a town motivation has a scum motivation (i.e. to look like town), so I guess I don't see how you can extract the two. Care to explain that a bit more?

Go through the Mafia Discussion forums. Read articles by established players. Town and scum have different goals, and therefore will have different motivations. Yes, scum want to look Town, but they also need to push mislynches through sooner or later, or they need to bus their buddies convincingly. Town will push mislynches accidentally, but scum (at least outside of multiball)

know

when they are pushing a mislynch. You shouldn't go after someone because you think (or have proof) that their reads are wrong--but you should put yourself in their place and think if their reads make

sense

from a Town perspective.

This is one of the reasons that meta is so useful. Not to go "this player is playing differently from game A and he was Town there, therefore he must be scum here!", but to get inside the player's head and learn how they think. To understand what kind of reads they usually have as Town and as scum, how they rationalize events, how they act. You need to learn their playstyle, and know what is alignment-null instead of alignment-relevant--it varies from person to person. Empire and I are both very grounded on logic and meta; if we are pushing cases on gut alone, something is off--you'd need to figure out

what

and, most importantly,

why

it is off. That

why

is the

motivation

part.

Going through an ISO and dissecting it post by post to call out scummy

behavior

won't get you scum lynches, at least more often than random. Scum know how to

behave

like Town--after all, they have more information than you do. (Yes, they might slip, but Town will also unknowingly 'scum-slip' because they usually have no idea what they are doing.) When you say "I'm going to make a case on X", you're already going in with a preconceived notion that X is scum without combing for motivation.

In short, when you are trying to read someone's alignment, one of the best ways of doing it (in my opinion, obviously) is to gather information about that person and then go through their posts (never forget to check their play in context; ISOs are not enough because they strip away everything else that is happening around a person and that they may be willfully ignoring). Do their reads make sense from an uninformed Town point of view? Does their reasoning match their mindset? Do their reads and votes flow naturally at each point in the game, or are there awkward jumps that don't seem to match their expressed train of thought? Do they look like they are behaving in an opportunistic way that does not match their playstyle elsewhere? Are they arguing to figure out alignments, or are they just making noise for the sake of it?

No method is flawless, and some people

will

have scummy playstyles. For example: in my opinion, MagnaofIllusion and Thor665 are infamous for arguing pointlessly; a 'pointless argument' is defined here as 'an argument you don't drop even after you have reached a conclusion on that person's alignment'. This is why you should have a variety of questions you ask yourself when reading someone--those I listed on the previous paragraph should help you start; a little practice and knowledge of your fellow players goes a long way when learning to read alignments.

Read finished games without checking the alignments on the first post beforehand. Those are great for training. Yes, it's a lot of work, but no one said that being Town is a cakewalk.

[Tierce]

1-2 scum here:

Kinetic and Xalxe are the two people I am not going to vote right now

From my point of view, Kinetic is town and Tierce is town.

The game is over with the fulfillment of the [deaths of everyone but Tierce, Xalxe and Kinetic].

This is nonsensical demolishing of what may well be a Townblock. People agreeing with each other are not necessarily scum.

Tell me, Quil--how am I scum? And no going on holidays for a week this time before explaining things.

[Tierce]

Interesting note: a Tierce/Kinetic scumteam could be less likely because Kinetic keeps referring to Tierce as a 'he'.

And this is stupid, because anyone who has been on the forums for a while has seen scumteams get the genders of their members confused even after being corrected. It'd be a cheap and forced Towntell, if anything, and generally I'm inclined to disbelieve those because scum doesn't lose anything by faking them.

Get yourself better attempts at breaking teams--frankly, when the best thing out of

820 posts

between me and Kinetic is THAT, you aren't doing anything with the content of the game. If you're Town, stop being useless. Again.

[Tierce]

Some phoenixes just want to watch this game burn. ._.

I need to study today. Will deal with this ASAP--again.

[Tierce]

quilford whats your opinion on zdenek vs kinetic?

I think it's town vs. town, and I'm disinclined to reconsider before a Tierce or Xalxe flip. (And even if one of T/X flips town I'd be more interested in killing the other, no way in hell they're both town.)

This is also amazing. No nosirree not interested in considering anything else in the game TEH SCUMZ are in Xalxe/Tierce + ???. They totes don't make sense as a Town/Town pairing even though I have never and will probably never explain why because omg people are poking at me to do stuff on a weekday

how dare Tierce do this to meeee

. If you don't have time, don't play. You have enough time to make a post whining about how mean I am for wanting content out of you more than on the weekend (because guess what, you replaced into a game

of your own will

), so you have time to be proactive and explain your thoughts instead of sniping from the sidelines and making a measly quote-stripe post per weekend.

[Tierce]

Oh--Kinetic, I read your point 3. Have to mull, read more, etc. The problem with a game without deadlines is that I procrastinate on reading and then refuse to make snap decisions, so I'm kind of freezing up and complaining about general lack of usefulness from half the players. >.> Anyway, study today, game tomorrow.

[Tierce]

How dare I consider that some of my Townreads are wrong, Quilford. How dare I. Have you noticed that I

have no scumreads

? The game is not over, and this means there is something WRONG with my perception of the game. I'm trying to figure out what. Unlike you, who keep waffling on reads with no real reasoning why (not so long ago you were calling me Town--when and how did that change?), my reads have a logical progression and I know something in them needs fixed. As it is, I know who my strongest Townreads are, but I know that NOT EVERYONE IN THE GAME CAN BE TOWN. Attacking me for changing reads is ridiculous.


Kinetic--thanks, but no need. As I said, tomorrow. I have a deadline today, and as soon as I'm done with that, etc.

[Tierce]

Forcing players into a false dilemma is so silly I don't think you'd do it as scum.

Unfortunately, I am also pretty confident in Zdenek and Tierce town.

BEEP BEEP BEEP TIERCE REVERSING OUT OF TIERCE TOWNREAD

See? Two can play that game. Your problem is that my reasoning for considering that my reads are wrong is CLEARLY EVIDENT, but you have no bloody excuse for doing so yourself. So how come it's scummy when I think my reads are wrong (when there is

empirical evidence

that they

have

to be wrong, because the game is not over), but you reversed out of this read with no explanation at all and that should be glossed over?

[Tierce]

You quoted a post talking about Kinetic and said 'Tierce reversing out of Tierce townread'?

The problem isn't that your reads are changing, it's the timing and the way you're doing it that are suspect.

Considering that that post talks about ME BEING TOWN and you're calling me SCUM now, yes, I'm showing you how your silly "omg Tierce is changing reads" game is ridiculous, because you are doing the same in regards to ME.

And my timing? Hiiiii there the game is reduced to

only Townreads of mine

. When do you expect me to care about the fact that I have PROOF that at least one of my reads is wrong?

You're not putting yourself in my place and trying to look at the game from the PoV of someone who only has Townreads. What does that situation mean? That at least one of those reads CANNOT POSSIBLY BE RIGHT. I'm not going to sit and say all of you are Town, because there is actual evidence that you cannot be. I'm not insane, so I'm not going to continue calling all of you Town,

because you are not.

It's not rocket surgery.

[Tierce]

I also like how Quilford was essentially the first person saying that I'm reversing my read on him when even I haven't decided who it is that I want to vote. I have to vote someone, genius, and when my Townread on you basically amounts to "he wouldn't make himself THAT vulnerable as scum", no, you don't get to be part of the list of people I absolutely won't vote. If you're Town, be better at it and then we'll talk.

My point about your Kinetic/Tierce read making no sense is that it's a goddamn LAZY read. You have 800 posts between Kinetic and me, and you haven't bothered to look at the interactions further than to bring that gender issue up? You were looking for commentary on it? I commented on it. It's a trash read. Go read our interactions. Everything you do is lazy and shows very little actual concern with the history of this game. This game has 100 pages, and all you've done to call a person scum is to attack Xalxe--where's the context of it? The actual concern about interactions? How LLD interacted with the slot? Your one and only point about Xalxe is that he wanted to kill MattP. So did I, and so did several others. And then we have stuff like this:

3) Could someone explain to me why all of a sudden PV is a better choice than Matt? I mean, both are scum, but I feel like more information, if nothing else, is gleaned from Matt's death.

lol "more information"
lol "both are scum" yet no mention of PeregrineV previously let alone a read on him

So this is bad, but going "At least one of Xalxe and Tierce is scum and I won't give a damn about the rest of the game until BOTH of them are dead" is okay? What? What's with the hypocritical reads? How is Xalxe worse for this than you are for doing much the same? You wanted a flip because that would lead you to be more productive--doesn't mean you wanted some sort of information from the flip as well? What's wrong for preferring a lynch to another when you think one of them is more favorable to Town? What does scum-Xalxe have to win with trying to push TWO mislynches and going for the (remarkably harder) lynch first (i.e. MattP and PeregrineV)? Xalxe tends to be lazy in games, so how does that more cumbersome and requiring-work approach make sense from a scum perspective? That's the kind of thing you are not analyzing. You're just going for BEHAVIORS instead of the MOTIVATIONS they portray, and THAT is what makes me concerned. When you're not looking for the WHY in "why would Xalxe want MattP first and foremost", your read, that revolves around it, crumbles to nothing.

On a different note, I really couldn't care less how capable you are of predicting your own workload. That's YOUR problem, not mine. and you are always free to replace out if you don't have time to contribute when called on it.

...yes, studying, going.

[Tierce]

Quilford. Read on kkb, quick.

[Tierce]

Good luck with that, Quilford. And with the quote stripes, because it's evident from someone who doesn't bear playing with MoI that I will NOT read that snippy style of posting. (In fact, I can't help but wonder how the heck you manage to do that from a phone and not want to kill yourself.)

VOTE: Zdenek

[Tierce]

can i ask u guys a question. why do we think voidedmafia was killed?

This bit:

Though, notably, kinetic only remarked that he was much more willing to let him die while quadz was rather trigger-happy with his hurt?

Perhaps the impatience is true for both of them, but there's a certain level of degrees that I think you're missing, LLD.

P-EDIT: Read, missy. Read.

Show me where I'm wrong, or stop answering for them.

I just did?

More precisely, the fact that LLD made post 1151.
It's one of the things that seals Kinetic as Town. Scum-LLD would be pretty happy that Voided-Town was answering for scum-Kinetic and to let Voided fight Kinetic's fights for him. The fact that LLD made this post makes it pretty obvious (in hindsight at least) that an LLD/Voided team is nigh-impossible. The problem for the scum is that upon Voided's Town-flip and taking this post of LLD in context, it also means that Kinetic HAS to be Town.

i.e. Voided was killed because LLD flipping scum made Voided obvTown, but we have an advantage from the kill: it also makes Kinetic obvTown.


Oh, and Quilford: Playing stupid? No. I have far better playerlists to play stupid as. I played stupid as SK in New Age Mafia II, and I played oblivious to an obvious Mason pair in SCIENCE!, as scum. The former can be compared to Town games of mine where I play elusive and cryptic and overall :whimsical:, and

none of that is happening here

, in a really obvious manner.

If you bothered to do any meta research on me

at all

(it seems ridiculous that I have yet to see any comparison to my play in other games from you), you would see what is me

actually

playing stupid as scum.

I complain that your Kinetic/Tierce read is lazy, and you pass that read off as a throwaway read. How come do you have throwaway reads at this point in the game? How come you are not visibly interested in interactions?

I explained why your posts don't satisfy me, and your answer is to say I'm playing stupid

instead

of showing where I'm wrong? The hell? What lazy crap. THAT is ad hom. (If you've done that in that horrible quote stripe, you can forget about it because I am not reading it.) Me attacking your playstyle without saying it makes you scum isn't ad hom, it's frustration; but what you are doing is.

What is much, much worse: I haven't had an answer to this:

Quilford. Read on kkb, quick.

This is not optional. I want an answer.

[Tierce]

unvote; vote Zed

I might

might

be able to entertain a possible Xalxe/Zed pairing, but I sincerely doubt that. Zed/Qui seems most likely.

Zed needs to die IMO. That's three votes on him. Xalxe has two, Zed is still voting me last I checked. Time to kill Zed?

Who were you voting?

[Tierce]

Se, that is why I never accept mid-of-line votes in the games I run. You were already voting Zdenek:

Follow me Tierce, kill Zed, use your rage. Tap into your hate, you know you want to. vote:Zed Come now, let's kill this scum bag off and move on, k?

[Tierce]

Then there's the fact that TIerce has been calling me town all game, and moves her vote to me for no reason at all, and neither of these things gives you a moments pause.

So the fact that

I've been calling everyone else Town as well

is lost on you... how?

[Tierce]

I wasn't calling Xalxe scum there, I was talking about

your

read on the Xalxe/Kinetic/Tierce trio. Go through my posts and you will see where my Xalxe read changed.

[Tierce]

"why are you asking me that of a scum read?"
"I wasn't calling Xalxe scum there."

What?

You were asking that of

me

, i.e. a scum read of yours.

[Tierce]

...You didn't seem to have taken my response at all, as here was no follow-up to that at all until the game divided between you and Xalxe. Why the lack of natural curiosity?

[Tierce]

There was follow up. I told Xalxe that I wanted him to answer seriously about why he had a conf town read on Kinetic.

...You ask me a question, and aren't interested in the reply where I essentially tell you to bugger off? What on earth?

I believe this is not the first time this happens in this game. :/

[Tierce]

Yeah, I was right, not the first time.

Tierce, do you have a read on Kinetic yet?

The thing I

least

want to do in this game is enter a conversation of any kind with you, because it will degenerate in helpless headdesking from my end. Can't be bothered. I think you and Kinetic are both Town, and that's the end of interaction that I want to have directly with you. It's nothing about you as a person, but I know that paying heed to your playstyle will drive me completely batshit and my patience for it has already run out.

So while I have absolutely no drive to discuss with Zdenek myself, I'm a bit wary of how he just let my "yeah bugger off" post go without further prodding and a silent vote on scooby instead.

Tierce you can stop being worthless and discuss things with me anytime.

I voted Scooby without saying anything mostly to see what Yosarian would do because I think his reasons for thinking that I am scum are ridiculous and it looked to me like his case on Scooby was a heck of a lot better, so it seemed like he could have been voting a townie while FoS'ing a buddy. I think his vote on Sccoby makes sense. I think that the case on Scooby is fine, and the fact that Scooby's decided to third-party hunt means he's pretty likely scum.

Feel free to stop calling me worthless and start making up your mind on my alignment an time now.

You see, saying that I'm "worthless" after making me a question and being pushed off--that doesn't make any sense as Town. Why make the question in the first place, if you're not that interested in the reply? If a simple "bugger off" does away with you? It doesn't seem like you're actually interested in my PoV and are just asking questions for the sake of looking like you're doing something, but the lack of actual follow-up is scummy.

[Tierce]

HEAL: Xalxe

[Tierce]

Your last mention of kkb is this:

Quilford, do you think that KKB is scum with Xalxe?

I'm not really sure that KKB is scum with anyone. His claim is convincing but I suppose it could have been set up with the help of a well organised scumteam.

But really I still stand by what I said way back in #1848.

It's hardly a stretch, when you seem to change reads at the drop of a hat, to ask you about your read on kkb.

You know why?

Because you are calling two people solid Town, and then have kkb as apparent Town. Unless you are saying that there is only one remaining scum, it makes

absolutely no sense

that you, as Town, hardly seem bothered with finding connections supporting a Xalxe/LLD/Tierce scumteam. It's hardly a stretch to ask you about it when

everything about my play

should show that I am Town to anyone with half a brain and some knowledge of my meta. But you're refusing to do anything that requires you to actually read stuff, have a very poor case on Xalxe at best, and are calling me out on... what, exactly? Burden of proficiency? Good luck with that.

And yep yep I am totally in the wrong for not reading snippy back and forth quote stripes that will only generate more snippy back and forth and not lead anywhere. Yes, I am a terrible person. Why did you choose to play with me again?

[Tierce]

Oh, and Quilford: Playing stupid? No. I have far better playerlists to play stupid as. I played stupid as SK in New Age Mafia II, and I played oblivious to an obvious Mason pair in SCIENCE!, as scum. The former can be compared to Town games of mine where I play elusive and cryptic and overall :whimsical:, and

none of that is happening here

, in a really obvious manner.

Oh Tierce you're so much better than all of us.

No, I don't mean 'playing stupid' as a playstyle. You are either playing stupid to get away with completely misinterpreting my posts as I show in

my dissection in #2795

or actually stupid.

Good luck with forcing me to read anything that only has one sentence of snippy analysis. Magnificent dissection you appear to have there.

Either make decent posts or bugger off. That post is a pile of crap and even MoI's condescending quote stripes show more reasoning than a sentence of "dissection".

And then you call me out on ad hominem attacks. So awesome.

[Tierce]

Feh, whatever. Giving this another sleep cycle before Zdenek time. Can't be bothered arguing with Quilford, I feel brain cells dying every time I have to make a post like the above.

[Tierce]

It does contain evidence of your stupidity, I didn't expect it to go down well with you.

Oh, dahling, that is not the why. I couldn't care less what you call me--you're a voice on the internet, I don't particularly like you or respect you as a player, and I am not here to be praised for my intelligence, I'm here to find scum. I am not stupid, but if it makes you feel better to call me so, go right ahead. However, don't think you gain any moral ground by doing so, and I sure hope I don't see you complaining

anywhere

from this moment on that

you

are being persecuted for your skills:

Dude, no. I don't expect you to handle me with kid gloves. I expect you to not be a jerk. Most everyone gets by in mafia games without pointing out how much other players suck, so why don't you?

It's been less than a day, and we don't have a time limit.

I'm not stalling, but I think you think I'm less affected by this than I am.

LOOK I DUNNO GUYS LITERALLY NOBODY HAS BEEN THIS IMPOLITE TO ME EVER AND I DON'T KNOW WHY

"I am terribly offended by people calling me a bad player! I don't think you people realize how much this affects me! But I think I have the right to call others the same without taking in consideration how this might make them feel at all!"

You're an hypocrite, whatever your alignment, because that kind of attack has nothing to do with alignment. I genuinely don't think you are a good person, and I definitely want this game to be over so I don't have to deal with you. It has nothing to do with calling

me

stupid, but that you think you have the right to call

anyone

stupid when you apparently curled up in a ball of horror and grudge

over several months

for a similar description of

you

.

I find that kind of hypocrisy to be abject and a sign of a bad personality that I want nothing to do with. It's always sad to find myself this disappointed in someone, but better earlier than later, and at least it's someone I wasn't attached to to begin with. I'm also sad that this happens in a game, but yeah, this is something that has nothing to do with alignment and yet needs to be remarked on.

Jus-Tice bird, over and out.

[Tierce]

You know what's a worse feeling than making a post like the above and immediately regretting it?
Not regretting it at all. I stand for every word.


For obvious reasons, I am done with the game for the night.

Xalxe, would like your current position in the game, please.

[Tierce]

Missing the point completely. It's not about insulting me, it's about your hypocrisy in doing so and your total lack of respect by how a situation that is apparently triggering for you might be triggering for others. Thankfully, it is

not

triggering for me, but when you choose to act like that, you lose any right to that request for

you

to be treated cordially. Furthermore, making a personal attack instead of an attack on a

playstyle

seems considerably worse, so defending yourself by saying your attack was personal goes

far beyond the scope of the game

and

really

makes you a despicable person. You lose any right at playing the victim (as you did) when you attack others in such a manner.

Either way, that has nothing to do with the game, and it's neither my duty nor my job to educate you on how to be a decent individual with consideration of how to treat others, so I'm done.

[Tierce]

So you think you deserve respect for a triggering situation, but are not willing

at all

to consider when someone else might feel triggered by your own words?
That's really horrible. So much for feeling bad for not feeling bad for that first post.

Whatever, that is not playing mafia anymore, and I'm done as soon as this game is done. In the meantime, I have no interest in arguing with you, so feel free to carry on with the whiny ad hom if it makes you feel better. Mind your karma.


Xalxe?

[Tierce]

D'aww. I feel so special.

Why did you sign up for a game with me again? You couldn't predict I would be in it when you replaced in, either? Poor thing.

Hey, Quilford.

When you treat

anyone

like a jerk, you get treated as a jerk in return.

If you don't want that (which you don't),

don't be a jerk

. It might be obvious by now that I don't give a crap about the fact that you are insulting

me

, so find a better target--my worry on a social level is that you are an hypocrite, and that I can drop any attempt at being nice to you, because clearly you don't have any special need (or right) for kind treatment.

Your insults definitely don't look like you think I'm scum, so carry on with them, by all means.
Why would I

be outright stupid

as scum? Tierce-scum would not "have been stupid", but you quickly dropped the "playing stupid" angle to outright attack me instead of looking at what advantages I could have from that kind of play, and instead of even looking through the games I referred (or others) to compare how I act. That's not scumhunting.

That's the difference. Because when I rile you up, I do it out of frustration and in an attempt to scumhunt. You just appear to be trying to sling mud at me and throw a hissy fit in hopes I will think you wouldn't do it as scum. The problem? The problem is that I believe you are far more likely to recoil as Town, and this lashing out is, in my experience, very uncharacteristic of Town-Quilford and more likely to come from scum-Quilford, who I know doesn't like the alignment, but appears to feel a sort of power-trip from having more information (Abarat QT and ADwD hydra QT support this), thus being more likely to attempt to get stupid moral high grounds by petty ad hom.

[Tierce]

Rage attack in is, in Healing cooldown, etc.

[Tierce]

Anytime you want to explain your Zdenek Townread, be our guest, Quilford. Or is that asking too much of you too and I should be able to rely on the first reads you gave in the game instead of thinking you might have somewhat updated them (gasp!)?

[Tierce]

Your posts are getting increasingly more and more faked, robofox.

[Tierce]

Great, but that doesn't at all address my concern with your posts. 2856 and 2866 in particular are very very awful. Attacking a Townread just because your read on him

might

be wrong without apparently even bothering to read more from him, and just as self-defense? That is reminding me far more of the scum-Zdenek I saw in AFFC than it does of the mule-headed Town ADwD one.

[Tierce]

What's your problem with 2866?

Posturing.

How do you expect people to be able to 'force' something? Under threat of lynch? Why haven't you commented on my Voided/LLD/Kinetic reply to kanye, which I believe is solid evidence that Kinetic is not aligned with LLD? Are you seriously proposing that scum-LLD

did not want

Town-Voided to fight scum-Kinetic's battles when possible? It's one thing to bus, another quite different to deliberately pull the rug out from under your partner.

[Tierce]

See phoenix.

See phoenix claw.

Claw phoenix claw.

HURT: Zdenek

[Tierce]

I am. I'm actually almost an hour late, but I got distracted. I Raged at 11:40 am GMT, so.

[Tierce]

That is, I Raged mid-cooldown after this:

HEAL: Xalxe

The fact that I had two RP to spend was what made me shrug off the possibility of waiting for the Heal cooldown to be done to Hurt + Rage at the same time. The overall effect is the same.

[Tierce]

I think I know the timestamp of my own PMs. Don't worry, my cooldown was over.

[Tierce]

Tierce has a very good chance of being scum. I think that her meta defense of herself is busshit. The post of Empire that she gave basically points out that as town she presents thorough cases, and as scum she gives ones based on weak mafia theory. Well, she's not giving cases based on weak mafia theory in this game, but she's not giving them at all. Since her vote on me, she's been flailing for reasons to call me scum, and her avoidance of the question about her thinking that I am scum with LLD, while trying to undermine LLD's case on MattP speaks directly to the fact that she is not being thorough.

So this is where you are wrong, Zdenek:

Onwards to Tierce…after thoroughly looking through her games, I think you can very clearly see a difference in how she approaches her arguments and her cases. As town, Tierce is extremely thorough, in depth, and probing constantly searching for true motivation behind everything. Her cases come across as more thoughtful and logically sound. As scum, Tierce tends to reach for things to nail people on and often uses BS mafia theory to prop up her logically hollow arguments. Here’s some examples of what I mean:

This does not say I always

make

cases as Town; it's a difference on how I

approach

case-making as Town

or

scum.

What is more: I have several Town games in which I can frankly say, to the best of my recollection, that I did not make anything that case remotely resemble a 'case'. ADwD is one of them--why are you STILL refusing to do anything with that game's meta? Maf. Maiden is another. Vi's first Rarefaction Micro is yet another. So: lack of visible cases does not make me scum.

What is more, part 2: look at my reasoning to vote PereV, MattP, Fate. THOSE are cases. It doesn't need to be just in a single post, it doesn't need to be particularly organized.

As far as I can tell, my vote on you is the only somewhat unexplained thing I've done in this game so far. And it's okay to have unexplained votes. I also have Town meta of being cryptic and playing the cards close to my chest--iirc, Otherworld, the two Rarefaction games, Dresdenafia are all examples of this. ESPECIALLY Dresdenafia, where YOU were whinging at me for not explaining things to your satisfaction. Our slot was Town--why aren't you applying that knowledge to this game?

Look back through my ISO. See where I called you Town? See how I described your meta in the early game? Reads change, and when my read on you is "posts reading vaguely Townish, done reading, kthxbai", that is going to be one of the first reads I revisit when I'm out of scumreads. Game Days have passed. My previous scumreads have flipped. I

have

to revisit earlier reads, and even a cursory glance through my posts should make it obvious that I have and am doing so with everyone.

I do not believe that your interactions with LLD clear you. In fact, you are one of the people to NOT have a not-aligned-with connection to her. Post 360 would be nice, if you hadn't been voting PV at the time--you unvoted, but virtually went back to him as the one reason you didn't want to vote him was because you didn't see his claim. (And Post 547 shows you were indeed aware that I HAVE made cases in this game, incidentally.) You shift to Kinetic, and LLD is always relegated to second plan. You only come back to LLD at the very end, when she was being voted/Hurt. Simply brushing someone's case on MattP as reaching does not make you not-scum with that person, especially since you never truly used that rationale to get her killed--you did NOT try to push her as scum in a meaningful way, and I think you are trying to inflate your importance in LLD's death.

I am not flailing for reasons to call you scum (...what?), and the "avoidance of the question" was me not responding the first time you made it. I do this constantly; some times because I can't be bothered to reply because I think the answer is obvious (the fact that I

kept voting you

shows that no, I don't think you are not-scum-with-LLD); some times because I want to see if the player has actual interest in the question and it's not a throwaway inquiry; some times because I genuinely miss such questions. Get used to it. If I'm cooking lunch and getting ready for an outing, the game will be reduced to doing what is absolutely important and actually relevant to the moment.

I have explained in which way LLD's interactions with me make sense from a Town-scum perspective to anyone who knows our history. I am not going to go through that again.

Except that the pro-town thing to do, is to argue your case, and not hurt back.

Please explain the cognitive dissonance between this and Hurting/Raging Xalxe. The possibility of MyLo does not excuse it, as doing what you did will only ensure that YOU are killed ASAP.

[Tierce]

Oh, and Xalxe has Town meta of not explain his Tierce-Town meta read on me. It's freaking obnoxious, but he has done it before--that's why I really can't be bothered to push that line of inquiry with him. It's like herding cats and I am but a small puppyhalf-moonlighting-as-hellbird.

...Now that's a question. Are flashy infernal phoenixes the reverse of birds-of-paradise?

[Tierce]

I don't answer questions posed that way and I am not about to start now.

[Tierce]

Good luck with that question.

[Tierce]

O hey--this is currently my only obligation on the site and my cooldown just--

Oh, right.

HURT: Zdenek

[Tierce]

...Uhm. Well, I feel stupid now.


Sooo I expect this is game over, because there isn't any good reason for Kinetic to reveal himself if not. GG.

[Tierce]

Yeah--that's endgaming me and kkb.

[Tierce]

WELP.

HELL PHOENIX SHALL RISE AGAIN.

But I

am

glad this game is over, one way or another. Well played, Kinetic.

[Tierce]

That would be more convincing if you hadn't called everyone and their mother scum as well, Zdenek. You were the one Hurting Xalxe, after all, and that precipitated the loss.

[Tierce]

Uhm, no. Until I have confirmation that they are dead, there is no way I'm conceding.

[Tierce]

@Flay: If kkb, Zdenek and Xalxe are all dead, I concede, there's no point in dragging it out further. If not, well, Battle Royale time.

[Tierce]

Well, at least it's over. They could have

asked

for the Metatron's soul, but nooo, the whiny feathery bastards have to be mean about it.

Thanks for the game, Flay. One question: is the background on Camael's sigil a solidified flow of lava? It looks like it.

[Tierce]

Was there a green room, Flay?

[Tierce]

I am unreasonably bitter at all the good Town players out there who had plenty of opportunities to replace in

to scum slots

and did not do so.

[Tierce]

...

Okay, of all the stupid things to do, purposefully trying to confuse Town

as Town

? Giving scum something they can fakeclaim as in the future

on purpose

? What was he thinking?

[Tierce]

That does not make things any better.

[Tierce]

The worst parts of this for me:
-Nightless. I didn't realize how important that 3-day break is for me to take a break from the game.

I agree with this, and not just in this game. Nightless is more scum-sided than you'd expect, not just from the lack of Night actions that might point toward alignments, but also because it doesn't let Town have a breather.

My theory about it is that games snowball without the Night break. There are several Nightless games on record in which people just don't stop. At all. Day upon Day upon Day, sometimes within a span of hours. While this is something other sites have no issues with, it's not how most MS games are run, and many players are not prepared for the kind of on-the-spot thinking it requires. They don't review the game, they don't bother forming deeper reads, etc. It's a nightmare for Town more often than it is a blessing.

That 48-72h break allows people to wind down from the game, occasionally reread it, and come back to it on the next Day with fresher eyes. That helps Town.

(On a somewhat related point, I believe that Nights that are too long (96h+) are more scum-sided, because at that point Town players stop caring about the game. Who benefits from apathy? Scum.)


Another thing that Angel Nightless needs is deadlines. Rage/Grace/what-have-you accumulation is not enough to provide a 'natural' deadline. Players need to see things

happening

--people are lazy, nervous about doing the wrong move, etc. All sorts of things that make them postpone taking a final decision. With a lack of hard deadlines, as on the parenthesis above, Towns stop caring. They need incentive to lynch and do it on a timeframe; a potential kill far off in the future that scum

may

gain is not enough motivation.