Mini 370: Reverse Mafia - Game Over!

[Zindaras]

This is a big game.

I will need time to read it.

[Zindaras]

Did a really quick skim, and I must say I agree with my predecessor:

I HAVE to revive omfglol!

Or something.

Whatever.

I did a complete read up till Page 5 or something, made notes, will post more extensively later, but until then, this will have to suffice.

I can see Yos as scum, at this point, though this may change as I read more. I don't trust M4yhem. I don't trust alko. I'm seeing interactions between theman, yellowbounder, M4yhem and CTD.

Not for reviving alko, M4yhem. For reviving myself. I'm not seeing a whole lot of town vibes here at the moment, so noone else.

My opinions are suspect to change.

[Zindaras]

Oh yeah, Thoth. Seeing a link between Thoth and Yos/Alko as well.

[Zindaras]

Bah. Nobody trusts me.

Zindaras, any reason you want to be revived so bad?

1) I'm fairly convinced one of our revivals is scum.

2) I'm not getting town vibes from

anyone

.

3) I know I'm town.

[Zindaras]

1) I'm fairly convinced one of our revivals is scum.

And what are you basing this conviction on?

The fact that people seemed a tiny bit too eager to revive you. Tamuz hardly posted the first few pages.

[Zindaras]

[quote="Yosarian2"Yeah; once it looked like I was going to be revived, several people quickly jumped on my bandwagon. Like I said early in the game, if it looks like a good guy is going to be revived, I wouldn't be surprised to see scum quickly jump on the wagon, both in order to look more pro-town and to buddy up with someone who's going to have one of three votes on day 1.

That's why there are some people on my suspicious list even though they voted for me day 1, like Crash.[/quote]

Day One (or however we call this) is a

vital

day for the scum.

Why?

Now, for this I assume that the Cop can investigate players in limbo.

If we revive two townies and the Cop, it's over. We can just No Revive and revive confirmed townies until the game's over.

If I were scum, I'd be pretty panicky Day One.

[Zindaras]

I've seen the questions and will respond when I find time to do a full re-read.

Clarification:

No Revive is not a valid vote.

Okay.

This is quite irrelevant though. Limbo-cop only has to investigate an innocent guy during two nights to win.

If there is one.

Would like to hear opinions on that particular plan, for which we must assume we've revived two townies.

[Zindaras]

I finally got around to rereading the entire game. My opinions are forming themselves. I'll post an analysis later.

[Zindaras]

Okay, I lost my notes of the first few pages, but I know what I thought about them, looking back at my earlier post. Now, there are some things I'd like to respond to:

Well, if we're going to figure out who are scum and who are good guys, we're going to have to start leaving a voting record. I've still got a bit of a pro-town feeling about CD, like I said yesterday, and as that's the strongest hunch I've got at the moment I might as well back that up with a

vote:chaotic diablo

.

This is the first post that caught my eye. I do not like chaotic_diablo. (reasons for that later)

On another note, we still haven't heard from lordy and Mr. Cesar at all, and we've only heard from yellow once. I would suggest that we not revive anyone today untill all three either start posting or get replaced. After all, if we don't get a voting record on certain people before day 1, and they stay in limbo, we won't get a voting record from them after day 1 either.

Yos follows a scummy paragraph up with a paragraph that I like.

I'm willing to consider Thoth though.

Uh-huh. Saying he's okay with Thoth, but not really stating any reasons.

Right now:
-I think yos revival was good one. We need to get clear, sensible townies into the living world
-I'd

vote:al_kohaulec

-I'd stay off mayhem as he seems rather scummy, looking overeager to impress yet his ideas would fail.

I don't like this post.

-It assumes Yos is Town. Yos may be clear and sensible, but that doesn't mean he's town.
-Voting alko without giving too much reasoning.

It may be the psychological effect of c_d looking beneficially towards him, but I think he would make a good counter-point to Yos and is likely as not scum if Yos is so he is who I'd consider a safe placement in order to get diversity alive.

Huh? c_d voted Yos earlier in the game.

I think as it stands right now, Thoth is my favorite choice for revival.

Vote: Thoth

I do not like this vote at all.

At the moment, Thoth is on top with Tamuz second. No one else is on the list yet, but I'll add more.

vote Thoth

More Thoth voting.

That said, here are the people I will NOT support at this time:
Tamuz (he's too overeager for my liking)
themanhimself (for getting cold feet)
al_kohaulec (for reasons I'd like to keep to myself at the moment)

Everyone else I could be convinced to vote.

I wanted to restate this post because of his alko point.

I've thought about some of those too, but it simply doesn't help us to speculate that much because at that point it gets to where just about anything could happen and it really won't end up helping us.

For example, in day one of the last game I was in, one player claimed "I require two votes more than the majority to be lynched, and when I reach the normal majority to be lynched, I gain some ability, I don't know what it is though." Everybody speculated on so many different possibilities, including "He's going to be lynched and revived later in the game with a uber ability that will PWN US ALL!" This really got us nowhere, it turns out he was simply a jester. It's just an example of how when nearly anything is possible, looking at everything that's possible doesn't get us any further, and acting upon very unlikely possibilities is worse. Some people wanted to lynch him because he was scum, others to give his ability, and some were afraid to vote him at all for reasons that he could be scum who'd come back to life with insane abilities. The latter is horrible logic because if he's scum, he needs to die nonetheless, and a future revival with insane powers is unlikely, and you can't just let people live based on such unlikely events.

(Now I"m rambling, so I'll stop. That same game ended up having no mafia, 2 cults (one leader didn't know he was recruiting), 2 SKs, 1 backup SK, 1 triggered SK, 2 self-aligned players, a town aligned who lost if he died, over half a dozen useless docs and other useless roles, and a townie who had a trigger that changed what a player's alignment would show up as on death. Ya, it was a fun game.)

Thanks.

You guys are all sissys. Let's bandwagon chaotic_diablo and Mr. C and get this day over with.

This post set off an alarm. Not liking c_d, as stated before. Throwing in a player who was very unlikely to be revived to not make it seem he was supporting c_d only would be a good idea.

CDT, remember this about Mr. C. He could be hinting at being a power role. Now let's assume he is one. We revive him, but he doesn't claim, we don't know for sure. He's revived, but we probably won't have a doc. Night hits. Mafia kills Mr. C. BIG power role dead. So even if Mr. C. is protown, how do we benefit from his revival on the off chance that we do happen to also revive scum?

This has got to be the most ridiculous reason not to revive someone ever. What's your plan, champ? Leave all the power roles in the safety of limbo untill they don't matter anymore? We don't know what role, if any, Mr. C has. According to his word, he HAS to be revived. Why, we don't know. The mafia doesn't know either, so they don't know if he is worth a hit. Therefore, he's a pretty perfect revival candidate, if you ask me. There are only two reasons I hear to justify not reviving him, and they're both flawed

I was going to quote alko's post at first, but CTD already provided the counter-argument.

Now, for a player-by-player analysis:

CrashTextDummie-Undecided upon. He rebutted alko's points and was willing to revive Mr. C, but he was also pushing for c_d to be revived. I could be convinced to revive him.
yellowbounder-In a usual game, I'd say he was lurking scum, but that's not something to say here. I'm reserving judgement on him and am not willing to revive him.
Thoth-I don't like him at all. I can't remember his points (and he didn't make a lot), which is always bad, yet a lot of players seemed to be willing to revive him. I don't want to revive him at all.
M4yhem-Though his posts in the first few pages gave off scumvibes, I've been getting a better feeling from him since then. I think he's town and could be convinced to vote him.
al_kohaulec: Doesn't feel right. Agrees with a lot of people. Voted Thoth. Don't want to revive him.
Twito-Did he even post? Lurking, not paying attention, whatever. I can't get a reading on him, and I do not want to revive him.
themanhimself-Claimed RB. Hasn't really contributed since then. Don't want to revive him either, though his claim has me leaning to Town.
chaotic_diablo-I definitely do not like c_d. He seemed to try to wurm himself into a good spot with Yos. Voted Thoth later. Do not want to revive him.
lordy-Not a lot to get a read on. Leaning to Town at the moment, but I want to see more from him before I make any final judgement, so I'm not willing to revive him.

Yosarian2-The wagon on him was quick. He's either scum, or scum wanted to get on his good side. He's a good player and his posts make sense. However, I'm not totally convinced of his innocence, mainly because he seemed to like c_d (if my memory serves me well, which it may or may not).
Tamuz-Tamuz...I honestly can't see how he got revived. He doesn't seem to make too many great points. Also supported c_d at a moment.

There are two main people I could see myself voting: M4yhem and myself. I prefer myself over M4yhem for one really important reason:

Tamuz nor Yos liked Mr. C.

Neither wanted to see him alive. Basically, if I'm revived, we have three people alive without any real blocks (if a two-player "alliance" could be called a block).

[Zindaras]

Mod

:

I'd like a vote count, please, and I'd like to know what happens if no votes are cast at all during a day.

[Zindaras]

I'll say this again: I was dead serious about reviving Mr. C, and I'm equally serious about reviving you. And it's quite natural to have a second choice if your preferred revivee isn't going to make it, wouldn't you agree?

Could you explain exactly why you think c_d would be a good target for revival?

Anti-CD much? Your singing these players out for having a connection with me in some way, shape, or form. I don't find your analysis reasonable mostly because it's heavily CD oriented to the point of absurdness. You tag on "he supported CD" as though it's a taboo. You have other reasons to exclude these players, but I find it extremely strange how you always reference back to me.

Not a taboo. I just find it scummy. Seeing how I'm suspicious of you, I find people who support you scummy as well. As you say yourself, I have other reasons as well. I find it slightly odd that quite a few scummy players can be associated with you.

Oh, and I don't think a cop claim is such a smart idea at the moment for some of the previously stated reasons, mainly those speaking of uncertainty.

I can't seem to find those reasons. Would you mind restating them?

[Zindaras]

Zindaras- I liked your analysis, mainly because you seem to agree with me about almost everything.
What's your reason for being suspicious of Chaotic though? You say he's scummy, but you didn't quite say why.

Voted self first. Quickly changed to Yos. Tried to get Thoth revived on very thin reasoning.

And that's just from the first few pages.

[Zindaras]

Random voting, in my opinion, really sucks. And I'm not withdrawing my self-vote unless I find someone better, so at deadline I would be one of the three who were selected from.

I don't really care about the numbers, for me this is a gameplay issue. If a townie was selected randomly, is that really a victory for us? Where's the fun in that? Where's the strategy? Where's the game?

:goodposting:

Anyway, let's do a quick poll. Is there anyone who would consider reviving me? Any concerns you have about my revival that I can address? Any questions that need answering?

Same questions, except replace 'me' with 'Zindaras'
Same questions, except replace 'Zindaras' with 'Al_Kohaulec'

I'd consider reviving you or me. Alko, no.

Zindaras- Your case looks weak. I don't like Chaotic, but we need something more substansial than that. For example, what's wrong with self voting?

Self voting early to try to start a bandwagon on yourself is bad. When you have reasons, I'm okay with it.

[Zindaras]

Wow, a rushed bandwagon and I'm the only one blamed?

Where did I say you were the only one to be blamed for that. Don't misrepresent my words.

Not only that, but I also get priority dibs on Thoth? This can't get any better.

Note how I'm suspicious of all the people supporting Thoth.

Whether random is good or not, it's our only option if things don't get anywhere. It's just an issue that is saved for the last minute.

You did it in your first post, if memory serves me well, and you didn't state any reasons.

Also, I really wanted to do it the old-fashioned way (gives you more satisfaction), namely by convincing you to revive me by way of argument, but since I'm going away for the weekend and I'd claim anyway, even if I was revived without having to claim, I don't want to take any risks.

I'm the

Cop

. I can investigate people in limbo.

[Zindaras]

Where did you say that anyone was to blame for it? You conveniently stated that the wagon was rushed, yet didn't mention any connection with anyone else except me. I didn't misrepresent your words, you just failed to give correct/sufficient information.

Oh yes, let's look at the voters:

Yosarian2, al_kohaulec, chaotic_diablo, CrashTextDummie, themanhimself, Thoth, M4yhem

Yos voted himself. Alko gave a nice big post with reasoning, but I'm suspicious of him. I'm suspicious of you, as you posted little reasons in your vote. CTD I'm suspicious of for supporting you, as I said before, so no surprise there. theman is the only one where you actually have a point, so that's noted. Thoth is scummy, his vote for Yos being one of the reasons. M4yhem simply dropped the hammer.

Note that "all" is really just "two." The part that you prioritize my vote over Al_ko's is apparent.

Prioritize? I did no such thing. I said both of you were scummy for doing it, but alko's been posting somewhat better since then.

Where's the other 6-9 pages of suspicion? You're deliberately not responding to portions of my posts.

They're in my analysis, if anything.

Crap logic. You twisting the intentions of my post.

Twisting the intentions?

You did not post intentions. You did not post reasoning. You only voted yourself.

[Zindaras]

You're evading the point. You're not explaining how they are suspicious because of their vote on Yos. You just said they voted for yos, then gave reasons to suspect them that has nothing to with their vote. My point still stands.

Oh, that's what you want.

Know how really quick bandwagons in normal Mafias (and yes, I do consider this a quick bandwagon, especially on this site) are usually bad and scum-driven? Same goes for this game, except that here, scum wants to drive themselves.

Yes you did.

Well, if that's the points you want to make, I can't argue with them.

Al_ko doesn't get one too?

Read more. I quoted the post where Alko voted Thoth, as well, saying it was scummy. You, however, said you were okay with reviving Thoth, there, without stating any reasons.

No they're not. You've only explained it up to the "Thoth" vote which constituted to "just the first few pages." I still want the next 6-9.

If you want them, you'll have to wait a bit, since I'm kinda going away, as I said.

You're twisting it again. Not only did you fail to refer to the

right

sentence, but you also failed to give an explanation on how the self-vote is scummy.

A self-vote without reasoning is scummy because there's no reason behind it. It's simply an attempt to start a bandwagon on yourself.

Also,

Vote: Zindaras

. Because I want to revive the Cop.

Oh, and,

Mod

, I would like to not be replaced due to my two day-leave.

[Zindaras]

One idea might be to investigate themanhimself, to confirm his innocence, and then if he is innocent we revive him tommorow and let him start roleblocking living people (who aren't the cop, obveously). If we don't have a doc, a roleblocker is the next best thing; he might be able to keep the cop alive, and if a scum does get revived a roleblocker should be able help figure out who he is without us having to waste cop investigations on the living.

This was exactly my plan, actually.

[Zindaras]

So they're scum for rushing a bandwagon? How is my vote any different?

Your vote is not different. It is simply part of a sum of actions that are, in my eyes, scummy.

Excellent point. I get the blame for

both

mentioning and voting Thoth while Al_ko has a pass for bringing it up without logic.

Alko's the one who added logic.

Crap logic. You can't apply reasoning to a vote that you already claimed to have no reasoning. In addition, you're using crap logic when you attempt to guess and fabricate my motives. I didn't vote to start a bandwagon, I voted in spirit of the early random vote staging. If anyone should be accused for self-voting without reason, it would be Mr.C, no hindsight included.

Yes, I attempt to guess and fabricate your motives. That is the way I play Mafia. Behaviour may differentiate scum from town, but motives do that on a far greater scale.

Also, about Mr. C: For him, the move and reasoning behind it was obvious. He was the Cop.

This is exactly why I like to make a difference between motives and behaviour. Mr. C and you displayed the same behaviour, but in my eyes for different motives.

The sentence I was referring to was in post 288. You quoted it, then twisted it to apply to an action that is barely even related to it.

Ah. I see. I view self-voting as bad. You should not try to get revived by placing votes upon yourself, but by reasoning.

I'm skeptical about your cop claim. I can't argue that you're not a cop, but I just want to bring something up. If we revive you, then you get to investigate people in limbo. However, that sounds really broken since it would mean scum would have no chance in being revived. You investigate during the night, then the live players just revive that person. It comes to night again. You investigate, revive, repeat. Isn't there something that limits your role? Even if we assume that the godfather is immune to investigation, the odds are still in town's favor.

Yes, I've been wondering about the borkenness of my role. There are no clues whatsoever to any sanity problems in my PM. I've got a few theories, but I'll reveal those later (or even in this post).

Actually, I have a really good plan right now, please refrain from reviving the cop until I say it (if i have time, I'll say it all in this post).


We revive the cop, we go into night.

Investigate the roleblocker, see if he's really town or not. Revive the doc, if there's a cop death, the doc is scum and needs to be lynched. Otherwise assuming we get town on the RB, we revive him next, so we'll have a living RB and a doc protecting the cop. The RB will tell us which of the two unkown revived players he chooses to target, if there's a death, the other person must be scum. If there's no death, either we have no scum revived, they chose not to kill, or we blocked the one that is scum. This should prevent...

We revive a not-investigated player?

As for revivals after the RB and Doc, I would suggest investigating somebody other than M4yhem, he has started looking better in my eyes since the game first started, but if a godfather exists, he is my prime suspect for being a godfather.

I will investigate whoever I want to investigate, thankyouverymuch.

I'm okay with suggestions on which roles to investigate, but not with which players.

For obvious reasons (cause they'll be who we want to revive), I think we should investigate players we think to be protown, to prove they're protown before we revive them, I believe we mentioned this before. I know Zindaras thinks I'm untrustworthy, but since I don't need to be alive to win, I don't mind not being investigated and not being revived. I say we should try to investigate most likely protownies in limbo because it's when we investigate a mafiate that deciding who to revive could get complicated.

But in the previous post you wanted to revive the doc without an investigation...

You know what? I'll feel much better knowing that you're a jackass when I turn up town. Even better is that I'll officially call you a jackass if you turn up scum.

Relax, man (goes for M4yhem as well). There's no reason to get personal.

If you claim that scum have already lost, then the setup is broken. Is the opportunity to insure a town win too good to pass up? As good as the role sounds, it isn't wise to revive someone who isn't here to vouch for his own revival. I feel like he just told us something good, then went up and left, leaving us with no opportunity to question him. The way I see it, people are already filled the blanks about his role themselves. Why should they do it? Let Zindaras do it himself.

I like this point of view. Let my point out why I claimed. I claimed because I didn't want to come back and see someone else revived.

A miller and godfather won't balance the game. Scum already have a handicap, so I don't see how this is a solution. If we can't rely completely on a cop investigation, then obviously we must make sure that the cop is the right choice. We have all the time we want, why rush it? We've already rushed one bandwagon, let's not make the same mistake twice.

Why would the Cop not be the best choice?

I've made up my own plan, and I will follow it.

[Zindaras]

I think I mentiond reviving the doc first, but not investigating right away. Yes it'd be taking a risk, but if he's the only doc claim, I was thinking it might be a risk worth taking, but that's my opinion, and why I wanted input first. Zindaras seems to have his own plan, and although his play seems much different then I'm used to, I'm sort of suspicious of it, but the cop claim is the only thing that makes me still agree with him. I'll be ready to vote and let the three revived players do their thing as soon as our last two players check in.

How is my play so much different from what you're used to?

Also,

Unvote

. Lordy still has to check in.

There will be no Night 1 deaths, so I have a guaranteed investigation. I will not investigate Twito, as the circumstances in which he claimed are much different from the circumstances theman claimed in.

Themanhimself is not a godfather. Twito can be.

[Zindaras]

Pfft. 3 hours too late.

>.>
<.<

Sooo, I found Town in Sherlock, who, according to CD, but not according to the OP, replaced theman.

I think it would be best to revive him, though I'd like to hear some actual opinions by other people as well.

[Zindaras]

6 PM GMT was 59 minutes ago.

I was 49 minutes late, I'll grant you.

Oh yeah. One hour because I'm GMT+1, one hour because the DST settings are being retarded.

[Zindaras]

I'm against reviving Twito and will not vote him.

[Zindaras]

This is very paranoid and such, but it's my theory, and I like theories.

Now, we have this game here. We have a limbo Cop. Such a powerful role needs balancing.

How better to balance it than not putting in a doc and giving doc to the Mafia as safe claim?

I don't like the situation in which Twito claimed. Theman's claim was in a far more neutral position. As godfather, claiming doc would be a good move.

[Zindaras]

I'm definitely willing to see the possibility of him being Town, but there's also a chance of him being Godfather, and I'd rather not risk it.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras- Is there anything in the wording of your pm that indicates sanity is an issue?

I think I have said this before, but no.

Have you asked CDb if you are sane?

Now I have. >.>

Can you investigate the living?

Yes, I can.

Are there any limitations to your power?

No. I'm just that awesome.

Although he sort of has a point, in that if Twito was revived and Zindaras died, there would be one suspect; if Sherlock was revived, and Zindaras died, there would be two suspects (Sherlock and whoever he didn't block). So scum-Twito would be unlikely to kill the cop, for a fair amount of time.

Ah, there is, however, one thing to note:

Sherlock can't be a godfather. A godfather-roleblocker? It would be quite silly of a godfather to claim roleblocker. Also, I think the Mafia would gladly trade one of its own for a (sane) limbo cop.

[Zindaras]

The changes of me being godfather are no bigger really than themanhimself being godfather.

You claimed after the Cop claim, theman before. That's a very important difference. I agree with the general consensus among the living players that we should have Sherlock post some content before reviving him.

[Zindaras]

Yes, but there was reason for that.

The RB claim was in the very beginning, with no reason to claim it. The doc claim came shortly after a cop claim, because having a doc/cop duo revived appeared to be a very good option.

I do disagree with Twito's point about the godfather, but I don't agree with the validity of Zind's last statement either.

anyways....
/awaits Sherlock.

I disagree with the Doc claim being seen as a good idea. I'd also like to see more discussion as to who everyone thinks is scum or town in limbo, rather than just waiting for Sherlock. I'd like to investigate Town again tonight.

[Zindaras]

I can guess, but might as well be clear: What did he say?

That I know all he is prepared to tell me.

Reading the replies is very interesting. I think I already know my target for tonight, but get those Karma votes in, by all means.

[Zindaras]

Ok, alot of people have been asking to hear more from me. What exactly would you like me to say?

Yellowbounder was not exactly one of the most prolific posters.

I would appreciate general opinions. Who do you think are scum/town? (both of the revived players and those in limbo)

[Zindaras]

I have a couple of questions for a couple of people:
Zindaras - Which role do you deem more useful for the town in general and in this particular situation: doc or roleblocker? Don't be shy to provide some reasons.

Roleblocker. Let's assume we have revived a Mafiate here (if we haven't, it's irrelevant and both are equal). If we revive the doc, we get one free night, because scum will hit the doc first. If we revive the roleblocker, we have a 50% chance of continually roleblocking the scum. We also have a 50% chance to lose the cop outright. A doc is only a temporary help. A roleblocker is permanent.

IMO, we should focus more on who to revive rather on who to investigate. No matter what argument is brought up, anyone has an equal chance to be scum, whether they lurk the most or post the most. Ultimately, I'd rather Zindaras to make the choices rather than have a slight chance of scum influence.

I make my own choices. However, I do want other people to raise points regarding each other, as discussion is good for scum-catching, and I want information to decide on my investigation.

[Zindaras]

Now under this assumption, we revive the RB and there's a 50% chance that you die. We may know who scum is, but that won't do us a lot of good if we can't lynch him. If we revived the doc, then even if the doc would die first, we will know for sure that scum is alive, and we won't be risking your life w/o knowing if we have scum or not.

The RB isn't any more permament in the sense that he can die, just like the cop can. He would have to block the correct player, assuming we have scum, and also if he fails, there's a greater chance that you would die, rather than the player (RB or doc) who's trying to help protect you.

If the RB roleblocks the wrong one, we know who scum is, which is a pretty large advantage. Yes, we lose the Cop, but we also learn the Cop's sanity and thus know to what extent we can trust his results.

Reviving the RB is a win/win more situation. If he picks the wrong guy, we know who scum is and can RB him, finding more townies on the back of normal play. If he picks the right guy, we still have the Cop running around.

We really shouldn't focus on the Cop as be all and end all. We should have faith in our own town-catching abilities.

[Zindaras]

Yes, the doc has its advantages. However, the doc is only temporary. He can't take away the threat of the Mafia forever. Ergo, the Roleblocker is, on the long term, more powerful than the Doc.

[Zindaras]

*twiddles his thumbs patiently*

[Zindaras]

Let's not revive Sherlock this time. >.>

[Zindaras]

We revived Sefer, he turned out to be scum and I turned out to be Insane regarding people in Limbo.

Kinda annoying.