Mini 1392: Social Justice Mafia (Game Over)

[Tajun]

VOTE: Shamrock

I saw you taking the easy way out of Open 449!

[Tajun]

Not feeling a flavour claim. Although I also can think of a very good reason to do so, which tragically would become obsolete if I told you about it. Muhaha!

A wagon? Why, I love wagons!

VOTE: Quints

[Tajun]

Hey guys, sorry about being swamped today. I'll make it up to you all tomorrow.

[Tajun]

Ok, this game is a bit tough to follow, but here goes:

Post 30: Xvart's comment was legit, his vote wasn't. I don't see any scum intent in AP's flavour claim suggestion, agree or disagree (still disagree here).

Post 54: Really didn't like Zajnet's vote and argument here. I think his jump was as suspicious as Shamrock's, anyway.

Post 63: Liking Zajnet as scum number 1.

Post 67:P Oh yeah, this explanation is sketch.

Post 70/71: Get the feeling AP and SS fight is town v town, but the pressure is nice both ways.

Post 83: Ok, maybe not, did not get town vibes from this particular SS comment. Hate the overuse of smileys...

Post 89ish: The Rufflig and Xvart are pressing a truly terrible case here, but I think Rufflig believes it. Not sure about Xvart.

Post 91: I agree with Toogeloo, this might not be so crazy after all.

Post 102: Rolefishing? That was asking for a claim. That's the equivalent of fishing with dynamite.

Post 103: Possibly my new favorite mod.

Post 105: Agree with qwints entirely here.

Post 107: Shamrock makes a bit more sense here, he's back to neutral.

Conclusions: Zajnet and Xvart are the scummiest people in town ATP, and a massive storm of crazy has been brewing over every little thing said. Xvart seems too angry for the circumstances at hand, but Zajnet is truly sketchy here. SS is tough to gauge, but I am leaning scum there as well. AP is also pinging my scumdar with his careless vote throwing, but I'll have to check his meta.
On the other side, qwints is now town leaning, along with Toogeloo, for the time being.

VOTE: Zajnet

[Tajun]

Already? Alright, don't have time to go through this chaotic mess of walls tonight, but I will do so properly tomorrow. For now, answering the questions that came my way,

Toogeloo was a town read because he was making a lot of sense to me at the time, haven't looked since. Xvart was a scumread because he was pushing a bad case and already pinging my scumdar on page two.

Wouldn't have put it past Xvart to bus Serene, especially since lynches on newbies almost never happen day 1 without a fantastic reason. Malp seems scummy, but I read some of his past games and he always seems scummy to me. Think there are bigger fish to fry right now.

[Tajun]

Okie doke, as promised:

Post 146 reads as legit town anger from SS, and 148 is pretty reasonable. Agreeing with the common consensus that she is newbie town. Dear mercy I wish these smileys would stop though.

Post 150: The Rufflig still seems legit, if wrong.

Post 152: Xvarts actions here are of little use, and I think he knows it. He spends a while arguing with SS, then backs off when his attack fails to garner support. If he believed in it in the first place, I think he would have stuck with it, rather than switch to a weak case on Buckwild (who he notes is being replaced) or malp who people have already indicated interest in.

Post 164: I agree with almost everything said here, decided I like AP as town for now.

Post 169 and 178: Almost too scummy to be scum. This vote was bad, explanation was bad, but I'm not sure I see a scum mindset here. Gotta keep an eye on Iron Crue though.

There is no "justification" of any "slip". I did not slip in the first place, I always ASSUMED there were nights from the very BEGINNING, until SOMEONE ELSE mentioned something about scum talking during the DAY, THAT is when I got confused and wondered if there were no nights in usual games on this forum and therefore questioned it.

Toogeloo said it more elegantly than I did just now, so I'll leave it at that. Like I said, I think it is plausible you got accused of something and got a lot of attention for something not worthy of attention and tried to overly explain it away.

Do NOT like this post by xvart. There was lots of pressure being applied, and he didn't get angry until it got truly ridiculous. You're interpreting this as scummy? You are

really

reaching here.

The rest of that post was odd though. Specifically he is fighting AP in lots of it, then goes around and votes one of his top suspects, on fairly weak reasoning. Not sure what to make of this.

post 198: Oh god these walls have got to stop! I'm not even kidding, these arguments over ridiculous details are making this game painful to read, and harder to follow.

post 206: I like Ruffligs points here and his next post as well. Town points there.

post 211: @qwints: I think the scumslip was non-existent and that the pressing of it by Rufflig and Xvart was bad. At the time I thought that SS's posts at the time were bad as well, but reading back I am not sure where I got that impression. Still don't mind Toog's jumping on though, I got the same feeling as him at the time so I'll give credit there.

OK, SS posts 213 and onwards are giving me the heeby-jeebies. Going after qwints for nothing was ridiculous. She then says that she sometimes tries to make people think she is scum for fun (always a red flag in my book, saying it that is) and proceeds to give a consolidated reads list, which I didn't really follow the logic behind. This could be damage control.

@SS: Sorry about not posting quotes. I'll fix that from here out, with spoiler tags since my posts tend to be long enough anyway.
Actually, not much else worth discussing has happened, but a couple things:

Ok, so you're scum.

Good good good.

I'm having a hard time getting a fixed read on Shamrock here, he seems to believe it but really I don't get it.

Probably because at the moment, I really don't. It's Day 1, with 12 pages, and most of the arguments made are all just blatant mud slinging.

Most the players are pretty null, though I have 1 or 2 people I feel could be town, and I have my 1 or 2 that I would prefer to lynch because of gut vibes, angels and devils on my shoulder, and my old knee injury acting up.

Hate to say it, but I agree with this to some extent.

VOTE: xvart

Still think it is possible that they set this fighting up pre-game, (xvart and SS that is), and he is my top suspect here. This fight seems almost too over the top to be real, they are both managing to be super active by attacking one another, and not voting each other extensively. Getting a bad feeling there.

Also need to hear more from Zajnet, again kind of hypocritical I realize.

[Tajun]

If she is, then I'm almost certain about my theory. But honestly, no, I don't see it. It's really tough to fake newb IMO.

PEdit: I guess I see that, but I don't read dishonesty there, more like overconfidence in a soft read. What do you think of the Xvart/SS fight these days.

[Tajun]

I think Tajun is town.

Post 307 is a huge catchup post that just kind of gives thumpsup/thumbsdown to everyone's posts. I typically expect scum to actively TRY and look like they are providing commentary (which oftentimes results in waffling). Tajun is doing a very minimalist analysis and isn't even trying to post indepth analysis of any of the posts for the most part. If he is scum, then he really is just that apathetic about maintaining the appearance of having unique and deeply thought out opinions. So Im inclined to believe he is town right now. Funny thing is I thought his post was scummy when I first read it, but then I realized he wasn't even TRYING to look not-scummy.

Still think Rufflig is town.

Starting to think Xvart is town. I've been a little more into my other ongoings right now, bleh. Someone make a case on me so I will get more interested

Shammy is still town.

My best bets are Malp/Toogeloo/Iron right now.

Ironically, usually I'd put a bit more analysis in, but the vast majority of this game is coming in fluff wall form. Really hard to get excited about two pages of SS an Xvart yelling at each other over trivialities.

Toogeloo is scummy for showing no interest in updating/developing his reads in reaction to any events, he is just sticking with the reads that (if he is scum) he has pre-decided on from the beginning. The fact that Zajnet is his #2 scumread for an inconsequential post made on page 2, yet he has no interest in any posts Zajnet has made since then, does not look townish.

Because Zajnet has posted nothing noteworthy since my suspicion on him developed.

As far as the "other" events, as I said, most of it is just blatant mud-slinging. AngryPidgeon jumps wagons like a fat kid jumps on cakes, malp thinks he has a meta read on AP, xvart is trying to lead (poorly), Iron is tunneling Serene for site meta, grey is playing the "this is my alt" card. All of this is pretty stupid, but none of it has jumped up and down in my gut screaming, "THAT GUY IS SCUM!" like the two reasons I feel Zajnet and Serene did.


I have literally seen NO reason to move my vote yet because this is just a "who can yell the loudest," game at the moment.

This post rubs me the wrong way, as he is not really under pressure, and yet goes out of his way to justify his actions. Town read fading.

[Tajun]

If that is the way the winds are blowing, let no one say that I do not also blow.

But seriously though, 374 is just bloody awful, and every time I think someone is too scummy to be scum I end up regretting it. His ISO is poisonous, and he is not even pretending to scum hunt. His conversation with SS earlier made my head hurt. I'm happy with this lynch.

VOTE: Iron Crue

That's L-1 people.

[Tajun]

Mod can I claim my role name?

Don't really know how paraphrasing works.
I have an ability (a certain law that has two words that both begin with A) that makes it harder for me to be lynched (by white people, though that might just be flavor.)
I assume it means I take extra votes to lynch but I'm not even sure.

So it takes extra votes for him to be lynched by "white" people. Mafia= The informed minority against the uninformed majority. Mafia is the minority. So, being that he needs "extra" votes, I would not think that would be votes from the minority but votes from the majority, as there would not be enough minority to give extra. So I am assuming that his ability protects him from the majority, which makes him minority, which makes him Mafia. Townies, more votes please.

I'm the obamaphone woman

You are Mafia.

Toog is town because that is the same way it is worded in my PM. Others may just lie, but Toog is legit.

This is the worst argument I have heard in a long time (the white v black thing). It is truly abysmal, and I just can't see it coming from town.

On the other point, Toog probably is legit, but there is a decent chance scum have fakeclaims. Or don't need them, considering how horrendously anti-town at least one of the town roles sounds (mine).

Which brings me to my next point: I should probably claim as well, seeing as how I don't think I've played well enough to make myself an NK target.

I am a Paranoid Gun Owner.

Discuss at will, I can claim flavour if people would like.

Ok, so a protective role of this nature in scums hands seems OP in scum hands. Two town vs. One scum LyLo can't win, right?

Unvote

Let's discuss for now.

Agreed, not necessarily since it is role madness, but I would bet it is most likely to come from town.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: SereneStorm

And for the love of god, don't let this turn into a discussion of US politics. I am proposing a policy lynch on anyone arguing politics beyond this point. Dead serious about this.

[Tajun]

Ah hell.

Mod, could you delete that double post?

[Tajun]

Anyone who visits, otherwise I would definitely not have claimed.

[Tajun]

I did, I took a look through a discussion on it on the site. The possible strategies offered were:
a) Play really well, make yourself a kill target.
b) Fakeclaim a minor power role to draw a kill, after a major claim comes through that would draw any protection.
c) Claim it to prevent any PRs from killing themselves against you.

I decided to at least try to get the first two, but nothing has been forthcoming and I have been having a tonne of trouble getting into this game, so I decided to take the safe route.

Voting Serene because he has been on my radar for a while, and his arguments are sufficiently flawed to make me think he is just making things up. I simply can't see the mindset he is offering coming from town.

[Tajun]

Serene, could you maybe calm down on the posting for a few pages at least? Thanks.

Tajun, what about Serene's demeanor does not scream overly excited town to you? (Bad logic isn't really a scumtell - at least, not in this case, I don't think.)

Trying to push through a lynch on terrible logic, instead of thinking through a claim, is bad, and her demeanor is really not screaming town to me. Every time someone says that she is obvtown based on her hard-core play she ramps it up, I think she is playing us.

[Tajun]

On phone.

Tajun claim just makes me think hes more town. He clearly had researched strategy for it and his reasoning makes sense.

SS votes are bad though.

Minor FOS to AP for this; I guarantee that I would have researched strategy and thought things through before making a claim like that, town or scum.

[Tajun]

I am Todd Akin (Yup, town role, believe it or not). Also White CIS, if that matters.

I don't actually shoot people who come into my home, I use my, er, other barrel. Legitimately.

I doubt there is such a thing as a one shot PGO, but I am not one regardless.

What is a tad suspicious to me is AP making a bad argument to reinforce his prior beliefs. Scum often want to show conviction in their beliefs; using my claim to back it up with a weak argument strikes me as odd. Just a bit off really.

[Tajun]

Serene, stop with the spamming please.

I think grey's ability is more likely to be town than scum. He's not the lynch today even though I really don't like his policy lynch proposal in 525.

For right now, I think bitmap's argument about AP's changing stance on meta is the best evidence we've got.

VOTE: Angry Pidgeon

Ok... Where does Bitmap make an argument about AP's changing stance on meta? That is your argument, next post.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Qwints

Bullshit. Im in an ongoing with Bitmap right now in which we are both dead and I said Meta is useless. He should know that. Your sheeping of his case is also bullshit. Explain yourself. Also I absolutely did point to one VERY recently completed game in which I said meta is bullshit. And I can point to another in which I made a meta case and talked about how much I hated myself for doing it the entire time.

Bitmap's vote for me was incredibly unsubstantiated and your sheep is even less so.

Now please find a game where I supported meta. Hint: I think it only ever happened once, and Shammy was in it.

But seriously, how can you look at my most recently finished game that I quoted saying meta is bullshit (as town) and acknowledge that Bitmap has a point enough to dodge the Iron wagon and vote me?

Right. Die.

But he wasn't sheeping. Seriously, what are you guys talking about here? That wasn't Bitmap's point at all. Also, meta-ing someone's preference on meta makes me unbelievably sad.

@The Rufflig, what is your intake on recent happenings?

I think I need to unvote.
UNVOTE:
Ok, good. Alignments aside, the mod must have balanced greygnarl's role with another role on the other side of the fence. That being said, my gut tells me that it is a little more likely that his role is town. This is all early setup speculation and out guess the mod style analysis which I am not fond of but can't completely ignore, either.

As far as AngryPidgeon being fond or unfond of meta I have only one thing to say. Who cares? It seems an awfully stupid thing to lie about. So lets talk scummy motive. Why would AngryPidgeon lie? Do you think AP was trying to discredit the tool gregnarl was using to make a case against AP? I think most of us have already made up our own minds as to the worth of meta. Did greygnarl's meta case against AP make any of you more likely to vote against AP? It didn't move me one bit. If greygnarl had pointed to a specific completed game and I had the time to read through said game then I might come to the same conclusion as greygnarl, but greygnarl didn't have so much townie credit with me that I was willing to take his word on a meta case - especially since I have no idea how well gg can evaluate meta. So, as far as I see it, AP had no real motive to lie about his dislike of meta. If anyone can come up with a reason why a scum AP would lie about disliking meta, I would be very interested in hearing it.

I don't think that giving one such ability to town and one such ability to scum is balancing at all. In a 2v1 scenario, the scum still wins. Doesn't really change anything.

[Tajun]

Ah, gotcha. I thought you meant having a lynch resistant player on both sides, like AP suggested (586). Yeah, I guess the most obvious one would be a double voter, which I think you could finagle into this flavour pretty easily.

[Tajun]

Tajun, do you have any completed scum games?

Nah, afraid not. Got an SK (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=19666) that was unfortunately all but wiped out in the crash.

Ya, malp sounds dangerous. Sounds like a good lynch.

This is some of the worst logic I have ever heard. And to expand on GG's point, SS, why have you stopped throwing your weight behind a GG lynch? Do you no longer feel he is scum? Because your willingness to abandon a target you think is scum is troubling to me.

[Tajun]

SereneStorm (4): Tajun, Greygnarl, Shamrock, Konowa (L-3)
Malpascp (3): xvart, The Rufflig, qwints (L-4)
AngryPidgeon (3): Bitmap, Toogeloo, Malpascp (L-4)

You know, I actually like all three of these wagons. I'm not sure what to do... I should look back over parts of this game later but it's just so long

I hear you... I still think Malp is just being Malp though. Definitely bigger fish to fry here, IMO.

@Sham, if roles are revealed upon lynch, it might benefit town more to lynch me. It could give answers. I will not support a wagon on AP.

.....

I will VOTE: qwints

But town remember my suspicions list when I turn up dead.

SS, what do you mean by this? Roles are revealed (usually with most/all details). Do you mean if alignment (town/scum) is revealed? What answers would this give?

@Konowa, you are so trying to cause confusion, trying to divide and conquer. Trying to shake APs confidence in those he thinks are town, and trying to turn him against me.

I don't really think that there is much chance of that. This post is kind of reaching at straws, really.

Why is Tajun leaning town vs town?

Didn't quite like his mini case on me just to disappear.

He very clearly thought about multiple ways to play the PGO role and his explanation of going through them was consistent. And him calling me scummy for saying he was likely town for his whole claim was

But I still think hes town. Just derp probably.

Haha ouch... I just have a hard time seeing what in my claim made you think town. As scum, I am confident I would have said the same thing (if I decided to claim PGO, which I doubt strongly I would do. But I don't see how you would know that). Not really a mini case though, more of a "something that struck me as quite odd".

In other news, Konowa's recent posting seems pretty town, he is mostly saying things I am thinking (post 711, 690, and his whole tone seems like annoyed town). Biggest townread atm.

[Tajun]

UNVOTE: qwints
VOTE: malpascp

Blatant counterwagon is both blatant and a counterwagon. If he is town, then Qwints must go next. #liningUpLynches

But if hes scum then its probably GG/Jal as the others.

I don't think scum Rufflig would whiteknight me when I'm under enough pressure to go down w/o much backlash on him. So hes probably town still. Rufflig, read on SS? Not sure why you didn't say anything about her wagon (esp since Shammy asked you about mine, but hers is ALSO in the lead).

@Shammy: Why is malp not on your shortlist? If you are willing to lynch Zaj for flaking, then why not malp? Unless Zajnet did something specific to earn your suspicion, in which case: what?

@Grey: Why would you be willing to do Toogeloo? Read on malp?

Why should Qwints go next if malp is town? Sorry if I missed this point earlier.

I am aware that being black doesn't make you scum dear, however the fact that your role is for Obama and hates Romney, while I am Romney makes us enemies. Don't be mad at me cause you stated who you were.

In light if what has been said, what kind if roles do you think would be scum roles then Shammy?

Haha I think Shammy is right here, SS is looking for roles not to claim.

Of course you Obama people want me out. You meany head freeloader and woman that gives him freebies.

Ok, it should be noted that if all the scum were Obama supporters, they probably would have noticed this and not claimed Obama supporters. Is this clear now?

PEdit: Oh yeah! Perfect, let's have Romney come visit to acquire my ability tonight. Works for me.
SS, are you willing to promise to come by tonight? I will unvote you and find a better target if you say yes.

[Tajun]

@Sham: Hold up, I want to see where this goes.

[Tajun]

Again, do you agree to come visit me and buy my gun tonight? This is a simple question. A yes or no will suffice.

[Tajun]

Then lynch away.

[Tajun]

(Ps. If you are town, sorry if I am being a jerk. Just a game.)

[Tajun]

I can't think of a single reason. But if she was willing to, I'd be up for changing our lynch.

[Tajun]

Actually, if she is town it would prove my claim, which would be good for the town, so it would be helpful in that sense.

[Tajun]

Reading up...

Spoiler: People who suspected AP at the end of day 1

#749 is a post by caught scum

Agreed, I'm starting to get that frustrated scum feeling from AP that he knows he's caught scum, but got to that point undeservingly. Also, I thought it was fairly interesting that at the end of his double posts he told us to vote qwints and then tomorrow he would gladly walk himself out. Slip?

What I'm more wondering is if AP and SS are scum together, because I have a hard time seeing two scum buddies so openly defending each other on Day 1.

SS is so bad though.

Guys deadline is in two days, who are we lynching?

Right now I will lynch:
AngryPidgeon
SereneStorm
Zajnet's slot (but this is a low information lynch, and he may have just been bad, so meh)
Toogeloo (probably)

AP, I think you're either scum trying to white knight a new player on the site, or you've been overly protecting your scum-buddy from possibly being lynched. Yes, new scum

will do what SS is doing to a buddy

. Your lack of any real reply to how ridiculous SS is being right now or commenting much on her potential lynch makes me think the latter.

SS obviously doesn't know what to do anymore.

P-edi: I'll wait on mah vote, Tajun.

AP is scum. As scum he breadcrumbs a role early on. This game he breadcrumbed something related to flavor. Possibly flavorcop. Now he has totally forgotten about that, since he's not being accused.

I was going to post this at 5:01 but I left my computer before the preview edit screen came up and so I thought it psoted. Since then, somebody who I think I trust pointed out that SS is acting like a newbscumbuddy towards AP. That's perfectly reasonable. Let's lynch him tomorrow. Even independent of SS
s role I was going to post this. I was orignally going to to start a counter wagon but getting SS is just as good.

I was going to post this at 5:01 but I left my computer before the preview edit screen came up and so I thought it psoted. Since then, somebody who I think I trust pointed out that SS is acting like a newbscumbuddy towards AP. That's perfectly reasonable. Let's lynch him tomorrow. Even independent of SS
s role I was going to post this. I was orignally going to to start a counter wagon but getting SS is just as good.

Literally this.

If SS flips scum there aren't enough ropes in the world to symbolize what needs to happen to AP; but even if she flips town I think AP is pretty likely to be scum anyway.

AngryPidgeon, as a wise friend once told me when I was scum bashing my head against the wall trying to make them look scummy in Open 408:

You're scum. Get over it.

Let me direct your attention to post 855, post 859, post 863, post 866 to see how you were basically ignoring the fact SS gained a few votes and was coming in range of being suddenly lynched, except by joking off the seriousness of her role claim by suggesting doctor. You kept calling SS a town read and outright defending her, apparently until her lynch started looking inevitable. No comment on qwints or Shamrock voting for her. No real substance about it until after my post 874. You were distancing yourself from the situation. I don't know why, as town, you wouldn't be concerned by her inability to claim properly either.

This game he breadcrumbed something related to flavor. Possibly flavorcop.

Can you point this out?

Also, if SS is scum, I

really

doubt there is day talk. I think partners would have filled her in on Tajun's role.

Toog has come out and said that he still suspects AP, and Jal has added a question to him, so I'll give them a bit of cred for that, but I really don't like the fact that with 4 players throwing around this much suspicion at the end of the day he has no votes right now, and they have shown no real inclination to vote him, or even discuss their suspicions. I think at least one, and maybe two of them are scum who are ditching a bad case. GG, Shamrock, any comments on this?

Ok I've mostly up to date, and I've iso'd konowa and xvart, and I've got a couple of suspicions.

I'll start with a VOTE: malpasc

This is my third game here, both my others involved malp and he seems a lot different here. What particularly struck me as odd with malp was him pointing at pidgeon with a "meta case", but pidgeon seemed to me to be playing similarly to my last game, in which he was town with malp, and I was scum.

Based on my limited meta tells, I'd say pidgeon is town and malp is scum.

Also, saying "for real" when decalring V/LA, this I found unnatural.

Also suspicious of the zajnet slot, qwist, greygnarl and toogeloo, but there's no basis for this other than gut feel, and my gut often gets it wrong.

Strongest town read would be rufflig.

I'll try to find time to do some isos on everyone but I'm not promising, I'm at lylo in another game and that's going to take priority for the immediate future.

I like this post, but I am a bit curious about the town read on Rufflig. Explain?

I might be in for a Malp wagon, he is certainly not assisting town right now and he is definitely suspect.

Well, for one, Buckwild was scummy as hell and all of you are terrible people for not wagoning him immediately.

AP vs Jal looks like town vs scum and AP is pretty obviously town here

these posts suck.

Care to elaborate? Ie. suck scummy, suck wrong, etc?

In other news, I very

very

strongly doubt that konawa was killed for his reads/posting, since even if he was right he wasn't pushing them very hard, so that leaves two obvious options IMO: He is a bodyguard (mentioned) or some other type of protective role (like, choose a night, any NK's come to you or something), or he was vigged, which would be possible based on general lack of content. Either way I don't see a lot of use speculating on this, tbh, since he didn't give any major town reads and we don't even know the details of his role. I would also like to hear AP's thoughts on people's recent misplacing of their suspicions on him.

[Tajun]

@Tajun, my AP scumread went away before the end of D1. Payattention.

Grey's last two posts day 1:

All yours Rufflig. Remember to lynch AP tomorrow.

AP is scum. As scum he breadcrumbs a role early on. This game he breadcrumbed something related to flavor. Possibly flavorcop. Now he has totally forgotten about that, since he's not being accused.

I was going to post this at 5:01 but I left my computer before the preview edit screen came up and so I thought it psoted. Since then, somebody who I think I trust pointed out that SS is acting like a newbscumbuddy towards AP. That's perfectly reasonable. Let's lynch him tomorrow. Even independent of SS
s role I was going to post this. I was orignally going to to start a counter wagon but getting SS is just as good.

It must be painful for you to be so utterly full of shit. But don't worry, we have the cure!

VOTE: greygnarl

[Tajun]

@AP: I really have no idea what to make of that message to Rufflig. Possibly he was roleblocked, then unroleblocked somehow? Or just unroleblocked (we could have some kind of enabler, who allows someone to bypass any effects for a night or something, with this as a side-effect). It sounds like he wasn't expecting anything to happen though. What assumptions are you making if no one did send the message?

PEdit: Most likely in general, yes. But in a role madness game, there are possible balances for this scum power role (SS's for example) and he has gone from scummy to brutally scummy and lying. It could be a scum PR, and GG badly requires death.

[Tajun]

TheReverend, don't be stupid. Townies say obv-town all the time. You proposed a plan that would get another townie killed for no real benefit, that's anti-town. Your OMGUS response to being called on your bad suggestion is similarly bad.

VOTE: TheReverend

why does this deserve your vote over everything else happening in this game.

This. The Qwints v Reverend fight is looking pretty bad on both fronts, actually.

Anti's first posts looked a bit forced. The AP v Jal looks scum/town, therefore ap is town / jal is scum is a bit hard to swallow. Why does it look scum/town?

What's hard to swallow? Jal's tendency is to frame things to make them look scummy (you're not the only one he's done this to, BTW). benmage likes to call it "his tell".

Did I say something to offend someone? What's everyone's problem? I really don't get it and I wish everyone would cut it out.

Do you mean that Jal does this as scum, or in general?

Also, I think AP's question was, what makes this a scum/town fight, as opposed to a fight in which you incidentally think one player is scum and the other town? Ie. Why is this evidence of Jal's scumminess?

[Tajun]

My role is Obamaphone Woman. Nothign else.

GG, are you claiming you don't have flavour with your role? If you do, please explain how it fits with your ability?

In other news, Jal doesn't look all that scummy to me, not sure that I buy this as scum at a meta level anyway.

[Tajun]

My role is Obamaphone Woman. Nothign else.

GG, are you claiming you don't have flavour with your role? If you do, please explain how it fits with your ability?

Note question two. Please respond.

[Tajun]

So much inconsistencies.

See this is what makes me uneasy though. If GG is scum and fakeclaiming, hes going to be extra careful to get it right. More than town GG would. It sounds a little counter-intuitive but its really not. His claim being so careless and strewn across the thread is probably a town-tell.
Malp needs to die though. His early push on me was riddled with backpedaling and damage control. And his last post looks like a really subtle way to support the GG wagon w/o being on it. I dont understand why town Malp would sit on the sidelines and beat around the bush to imply that GG's claim looks fishy. Read it. The tone/phrasing is heavily implying that GG is scummy, but Malp wont outright accuse him of it.

I don't think it is a town tell, more like a GG tell. Only seen town GG, but I can't see him being super-careful as scum either.

@Rufflig/Reverend: Do you think scum have fake claims (and that the obamaphone woman is one?). Why is it scummy for GG to forget to claim Black Homo? It would be scummy for him to make it up after the fact, but I really don't think that is the case. If he is screwing up a fake claim, then he is being awfully blase about it.

I'm beginning to think that they do not have fake claims. As far as I can tell, this is the first game DeltaWave has modded since his open nightless. Delta has no record of providing or not providing fake claims.

Aside from greygnarl's attitude (which I would characterize as scum giving up because he knows he's caught instead of blase), what do you think of greygnarl's claim? No one here has stated that I am on the wrong track because their role, role power and flavor are not in alignment with each other. Will you state this is the case and that your role/role power and flavor are not in harmony with each other? The scum screwed up and it's going to cost them.

I don't see why scum would need fake-claims, with Todd Akin being a town sided role, unless there is some unifying flavour behind the scum roles that I don't yet see.

Todd Akin doesn't match anything related to PGO either, so flavor spec should be worthless.

This is actually why I was pressing GG on this point. It

is

connected, somewhat strangely, but sensibly in my role pm. GG seems unable to explain why his role and ability are connected, which is very odd from my point of view.

Pidgeon's vote was not scummy. Rufflig stated over half an hour before pidgeon's vote that greygnarl was at L-1 and my count was wrong, and after the confusion my vote count caused, it seems obvious pidgeon would count the votes.

qwints is pushing for a lynch based on thin evidence.

VOTE: qwints

I agree with this point, but I still think GG is the best choice. His actions do not seem right, and he is trying to wriggle his way out. Also, though,

AP's vote was the 6th vote, right? So, liar-grey is now dead. If AP didn't know that Reverend's vote count was wrong (I didn't, rufflig's confirm vote was tricky), AP's "hammer+1" was incredibly scummy.

UNVOTE: Grey
VOTE: AngryPidgeon

what the heck is this? If you believed that GG was dead, why did you unvote him and go after AP? Am I missing something here?

[Tajun]

How do you mean, if GG was scum he would already be lynched?

[Tajun]

How do you mean, if GG was scum he would already be lynched?

If GG was lying about his role (and therefore scum) he would already by lynched. I don't buy that role as scum.

It is not that unlikely really that this is a scum role. More to the point, we had already confirmed it once, and if it was a companion role there is no reason to think it couldn't have been done twice. I think you were using IIOA here, equivocating town role with lynch resistant. I don't buy this argument.

VOTE: quints

I'm with the Rev on this one.

[Tajun]

Unvotes don't undo a lynch. If grey was lying about his ability and his lynch was prevented yesterday by something other than he says it was, then he was dead. While waiting to find out whether he'd been lynched, there was no reason not to continue play - mindful of the fact that a lynch might have already been lynched. So I proceeded along the line of "either grey's already been lynched, in which case I'm sure he'll flip scum. or grey is still immune, in which case I'm sure he's town."

AP's been scummy all day and post 1110 looks to me like scum trying to quick hammer a town PR. AP claims and people seem to believe that he knew the vote count when he voted from Reverend's 1108 post, but 1110 completely ignores Grey's 1109 where he explains that he was trying to draw out scum. I believe grey's gambit was a solid town move and that it worked. AP is scum.

It looks almost certain that there is at least one townie who has bought into this scum lie that tajun and grey aren't obv-town. Just because this is a role madness game, doesn't mean that some roles are very unlikely to be scum - PGO and lycnh-resistant both qualify as almost guaranteed town. I could listen to an argument that Tajun's plan was to shoot SS if she targeted him as he requested, but that seems fairly unlikely given the fact that he'd have to explain the lack of another kill.

I don't like this argument. If lynch resistant was a near surefire town role it would be overpowered, might as well be ingame confirmable innocent child. There are lots of ways it could be scum. Make it unable to commit kills. Give town a double-voter. Make it fail at LYLO. Give town another power role. Probably a half dozen things I can't come up with. I think you knew perfectly well that he wasn't going to get lynched, and jumped the gun. And it is consistently freaking me out how town you guys think I am, PGO is a tremendously powerful scum fake-claim.

Im spreading myself too thin. Replaced into Dunhams games despite telling myself I needed to cap myself at 2. But I could not resist his sexual appeal. Urgh. Anyhow, I'll catch up after work today. Dont hammer or anything until then. I think we still have until Saturday anyhow.

Im still buying Antihero/Malp/qwints team.

Question to all: Who thinks Malp is scum?

[Tajun]

NOW WE HAVE PEOPLE ARGUING THAT THE ROLE IS TOO OP TO BE TOWN AND TOO OP TO BE SCUM. CLEARLY GG MUST BE 3rd PARTY. FUCK ME, RIGHT?

Good mercy I hope this is a joke. I said that "if" the role was near guaranteed town it was OPed. It isn't. It is more likely town, but in no way guaranteed. Thus, not OPed because there are plenty of scenarios in which it is scum. In which case it is also not OPed.

Frankly, I still think GG is scum actually, but qwints is acting off the wall. Easy to put them as a team really. I am happy where my vote is currently.

Who else on Malp? Don't be shy.

[Tajun]

Hmm, maybe not OPed come to think of it. Might as well just call it an in game provable Innocent child though.

[Tajun]

My point is that that is not the intended purpose of the role. It could be from town or scum, and so the only real value it has is that it makes you harder to lynch.

[Tajun]

I'll make my big post tomorrow morning.

We're waiting... Seriously, I still think GG is scum. Last game I was in with him he was towntelling all over the place, this game he is a wasteland.

Btw, you want a possible different take on greygnarl claiming scum? gg actually thought he was lynched, because AA wasn't active on him at the time he thought he reached the lynch level. There was no real reason for gg not to play out his gambit for one more vote if his true intention had indeed been to gambit. However, he backpedaled away from his scum claim as quickly as possible once he realized that he was still alive in the game. He _screwed_ up!

Rufflig, if this (or really any of your GG theories) turn out to be correct, you get ten million points. Until then, I am pretty sure this is crazy talk. Also probably town motivated crazy talk.

Majiffy? I don't know what to say about that. I got mah cool moments. Dropping the Rev thing as it'll go nowhere and we're saying two different things (and I am right on my point).

Since GG won't specify: One problem that caught my eye regarding GG's role claim: black

homo

.

Chris Crocker, Town Defender, White Transexual

Transexual. I would expect his claim to follow suit with

homosexual

. I actually am

very

interested if anyone just has "homo."

@qwints

: Why did you call Grey once his actual role was confirmed.. again and you thought he was lynched?

This is an odd one though, the rest of us got white CIS, not "heterosexual". Why would you expect GG to be "homosexual"?

In other news, I hate the Malpa wagon. Being useless is a Malpa trait, not all that scummy from him from what I gather metawise, and I don't see a lot of scum motivation in his posts. I think this is just a bad counterwagon on an always scummy player, to deflect from the player who's behaviour has actually been lynchworthy, qwints. No way I am jumping.

[Tajun]

Or he was paraphrasing, to avoid being modkilled, or saying the first thing that came to mind. TBH, I think this is a far better point against AP than it is against Malp. We shall see I suppose, but I still think this is a bad idea.

[Tajun]

If the scum do have fake pms, then this point is completely moot. If not, then this is a very small strike, if you had asked me to describe mine I would have said the first thing off the top of my head, which would have basically been what Malp said. The first thing I did when I saw your post was check my own posts wording, because I had no idea what it said. Why AP did not do the same and comment on your post is a very good question, but this is a minor at worst point on Malp. Not that it matters now, but I am not calling you obvtown for this.

[Tajun]

That was a terrible assumption then AP. It was obvious what the Rev's issue was.

[Tajun]

That didn't read as surprise. Which is a bit surprising in itself actually, since last I heard AP had GG as a scumread. Actually, these nightkills are bizarre enough for me to propose that there might be someone out there changing where night actions go. Maybe not though, as no one has been directed at me yet (unless there was no NK from scum one night). Thoughts?

@AP: The Rev went from

Not going to hammer any time soon, some important discussion to be had.

to

Stating intent to hammer. Malp is scum.

with the difference being

I win when all threats to town are gone.

What might be the difference? Maybe it was something to do with that post. Say, the fact that his vic condition was improperly worded.

Just so we are clear, what does your vic condition say AP? Feel free to paraphrase, but there is one part in there which I want to hear.

Pedit: Still want to hear your wincon AP.

[Tajun]

True, he would be effectively confirmed at that point. But we are not there yet, and if he were scum, we would have to lynch him today (or a different scum, presuming that there are three). I wouldn't have killed him last night, I would have given us a chance to make the mistake again. But fair enough, I can see where you are coming from.

[Tajun]

Cute. I am at work and can't respond right now, give me a few hours. Don't hammer me yet.

[Tajun]

Okay, first things first. We wait for everyone to check in and confirm that they had no part in interfering with Toogeloo last night. Before that happens, I don't want anyone else voting me. I support a mass-claim, since I know what I will flip, but obviously I don't have an argument as to why that anyone will listen to, so just to be on the record.

And yes, bulletproof does seem most likely. Protected by scum doctor is another option.

These make no sense. Why would I claim a PGO, only to be protected by a scum doc? Unless it is a two man scum team, the doc would be on the other player, because only a complete and total moron would try to vig a claimed PGO (yeah, looking at you toog). BP is less stupid, but why would I claim a PGO if my role is BP? What people were saying earlier was that likely only a super-powerful scum role would claim PGO to avoid having a shot/investigation on him. BP? Not super powerful.

Toogeloo could be scum trying to get tajun lynched, knowing they can't NK him. I don't think this is as likely as tajun being scum, but it's something that has crossed my mind and cannot be ignored.

^This. They could kill me, but they would lose a man. Might as well cost us a lynch at the same time.

Hey guys little busy today. Quick notes:

1. Either Tajun or Toogeloo is lying and I strongly doubt its Toogeloo right now. I highly doubt there is ANOTHER RB or even J/K given that qwints is a proven RB and Malp was a Vanilizer.

2. Probably 3 scum team members. The town power has not been THAT overwhelming so far.

3. Tajun's probably scum and here is why. He keeps asking me about my wincon because of Rev's interactions with Malp at the end of the Day. If any game was breakable by claiming role PM flavor, then the mod fucked up royally. Tajun isnt a noob, he should know this. There is a sample wincon in the rules in the opening post anyways. Im guessing Tajun's role doesn't explicitly come with a fakeclaim and he forgot about the one in the opening rules and thinks that this push looks legitimate because when Rev asked Malp for win con flavor, he checked his role and found none. And thats why he thinks its a big deal.

Hes also claiming a PGO that was shot and both he/claimed-Vig are still alive given a Vanilizer dead AND a RB who is proven to have targeted someone other than Toog. And his whole end of D2 posting looks like someone trying to pin something on me since he knows the Malp flip is going to make him look bad for jumping on the win-con flavor.

Im guessing Tajun is bulletproof.

Re Mass Claim: Normally Im all for mass claims. Unclaimed: {Me/Quadz/AH/Jal/Rufflig} I think. I think Id rather do it Tomorrow. There is probably another good town PR in the unclaimed and Toog's claim is giving us info for a good lynch Today. Qwints/Tajun is going to get lynched and I dont see that changing with a mass claim.

@Rev: I find Toog scum / Tajun town unlikely. If nothing else, Toog's claim looks really genuine. That being said, I'd like to know if Toog targeted anyone N1 and why/why not.

VOTE: Tajun

I missed the opening post wincon, tbh. And you know what? You can die day 5. That is, after I die day three and Toog dies day 4 for his lies. This push is crap, clearly the Rev missed it as well.

We need everyone to check-in to claim any role interactions with Toogelo. I want to see if someone claims they did before doing anything with mass claiming. If no one claims they did, then we lynch Tajun as she's just confirmed scum at this point. I don't find it totally necessary to mass claim today and almost pointlessly out PRs if this is the case.

Also, there's no motivation for a scum-Toogelo to gambit getting someone mislynched today when it's not mylo/lylo. He's very much probably town.

Not necessarily. What if he said this tomorrow? Would anyone believe him? If the scum were annoyed with me and decided to kill me like this, it would be today or never.

Anyway, I always knew I might get lynched for this claim, so you might as well get it over with. My flip will reveal me as a town legitimate rapist, not paranoid gun owner, but don't let that slow you down. The flavour was very clear about what would happen if someone visited. If Toog is not full of shit then he got roleblocked, and the scum win. This is shitty luck, but it has to happen.

Because after my flip you CANNOT let him survive tomorrow.

Wait for everyone to check in. I'll post final reads tomorrow, unless some asshole hammers me first.

[Tajun]

I said I don't shoot people, I use my other barrel. Legitimately. This is effectively equivalent.

I claimed PGO because people know what that means and I didn't feel like spending the next twelve posts trying to explain to people that if they visited me I would rape them to death. Right now, the only reason I am verifying this is because I don't want Toog to say "hey, he's a legitimate rapist, not a PGO, so clearly I wasn't lying LOL" tomorrow. I die, I flip Legit rapist, Toog dies for his lies, because I am a PGO. Got it?

[Tajun]

AP, eat me. You're dead day 5 for your bullshit.

[Tajun]

I didn't say he was probably messed with, I said he absolutely needed to die. What fucking post are you reading?

[Tajun]

It's in goddamn bold you moron.

[Tajun]

AP, I saw you browsing... Nothing clever to say in response?

[Tajun]

I'd rather make sure that no one, say, role-blocked him before I vote him out for his crap. And yeah, that was my first reaction, "don't lynch me until you are sure it's not a completely idiotic idea". Maybe you would react by saying "he must be scum there is no other explanation", but you see you would be wrong, because yeah, actually, there is.

[Tajun]

If he shot anyone day one there would be a body. He explained why he shot at me. Seriously, which game are you reading?

Pedit: Thank you, jeez.

[Tajun]

a) Why would I be lining up lyncheds if I was going to flip scum? HMMMMMMMM.....
b)Yeah, this is why I said don't lynch me yet, because I saw this coming
c) Seriously, give me 24 hours and I will post proper reads, which might be of some use to you clowns after I flip TOWN.
d) Drunk right now, not going to happen yet.
e) Toog dies tomorrow. DO NOT FORGET. He has NO BULLSHIT EXCUSES, HE DIES.
f) I want AP dead too, but that might just be because he pisses me off. Significantly less sure about that. He might just be an arrogant ass.

[Tajun]

Just in case I haven't been sufficiently clear, after I am lynched TOOGELOO DIES.

[Tajun]

Coolio. Let me be equally clear, after I flip TOWN toog must die for his lies. There is no other sensible choice, the scum could have a non-qwints RB, but it's not bloody likely that they got this lucky. I knew the moment that he claimed his shot I was a dead man, unless there was some other explanation (RB'ed by town, weird interactions, etc.) Fortunately, I am doing my job as PGO and taking a scum with me. You're welcome. No one seems to be able to think "hey, why would a scum BP have claimed PGO or why would a claimed PGO have a doc protection" or "why wouldn't scum tajun have self-hammered, since his death was a certainty regardless" or "why is dead-man tajun still trying to help?" The answer will surprise about 5 of you.

Final reads:

*Towniest*

TheRev: is a fantastic actor if scum, it's very tough to fake what he did at the end of the day yesterday, and the excitement he has been showing.

The Rufflig: is playing a very town game, seems to be thinking things through logically and making sensible inferences.

AngryPidgeon: After sleeping on it, there is a good chance he is just an ass. He is clearly misinterpreting my posting to make me look scummy, but he is doing it really badly as well. I'm not sure that scum AP would be trying to make a case seem super strong based on reactions etc. when the case makes itself based solely on role interactions. Decent chance he is town.

Jal: Something feels off there. Usually I go with my gut pretty strongly, but I remember I had the same feeling last game with her and she flipped town there, so I really don't know.

Quadz: A bit up in the air. Shamrock was ambiguous at best, but Quadz seems a bit more town. Tough to say.

Antihero: Had a bad feeling about Zajnet, and antihero continues the thought. Post 923 was bad, and I don't see a lot of town there.

qwints: Has simply done too many scummy things this game, there was a reason he was the second choice yesterday. I see no town there whatsoever.

toogeloo: Duh.

*Scummiest*

If toogeloo survives tomorrow, I am blacklisting every townie left alive at that point. Dead serious. I don't even care if he flips town.

Fire away.

[Tajun]

Sounds better than plan a, that is for sure.

From your point of view there is of course the problem that scum may have a redirector (or something like it). From mine, it doesn't matter anyway, as Toog isn't an NK target regardless.

I wasn't a lynch target day 1, I was somewhere in the middle, but you're right that I might not have made it to endgame. Tough to say really.

Pedit: I had a vote down for the plan, but we should choose a "target" for toogeloo before we do this lynch. FTR, I am very much in favour of this.

[Tajun]

I say antihero.

[Tajun]

Yeah... tbh, I would expect that they would have done that the last few nights as well, if they had the option. They might have a bus driver or something too though. Then the issue is if the wrong person is "vigged".

[Tajun]

WRONG! But I don't honestly blame you, I'd have done the same. I don't understand it either. Anyway, 1 more time for posterity, Toog dies tomorrow. No one else. Then Qwints.

[Tajun]

I was walking to school Jal. Well played.

[Tajun]

NO. TOOG IS NEXT. NO DEBATE.

[Tajun]

He is a proven liar now. If he does not die next,

...well, I have no recourse. I'm already dead.

Seriously though. The man dies.

[Tajun]

Actually, Jal is likely scum as well. She knows I get mad when about to be lynched, she's been with me in this scenario before.

Pedit: also this^.

[Tajun]

That's assuming you flip scum, Tajun. If you flip PGO, thoughts will be rethunk.

Trust me, I shut up as caught scum, after I've been lynched anyway. We should discuss night actions in the (now inevitable) scenario where I flip town.

[Tajun]

Rev, randomize your target amongst those who are NK targets. Rufflig, redirect likely scum to other likely scum. Anything else?

[Tajun]

Antihero, if you are town copy an ability you like, if you haven't already done so.

[Tajun]

Might as well though, make sure people are doing intelligent things. Massclaim is tomorrow, even before Toog dies, so that town can properly coordinate night actions and catch people lying.

[Tajun]

Jal, you can't seriously still be claiming to believe I'll flip scum can you?

[Tajun]

Why am I still talking if I am? To WIFOM my partners, really?

Since I'm already dead, is there any chance you could try to maximize town's odds of winning after I flip town? Say, by coordinating night actions, and figuring out protections, movements etc.?

[Tajun]

At this point in the game (heading into lylo) we should organize our efforts. But I see what you mean, and I'll rely on the individuals to correctly target their shots. Hopefully everyone has enough info to do something intelligent now.

Toog, in the extremely unlikely circumstance that you are town, shoot tonight. This seems counter-intuitive, since if you miss you take us to game over, but if you don't you die tomorrow anyway, so that is our only hope. I suggest qwints, but it's on you.

That's all I've got. Best of luck town.

[Tajun]

Oh, also, at this point my gut tells me the scum have a bus driver, or some other such role. Take that into account when choosing night actions, and far more importantly when evaluating their effects in massclaim.

[Tajun]

Plan B was for qwints to be lynched, in which case antihero would be my next guess. Since we went with plan A instead, qwints remains number 1. Also, ftr, plan A sucked.