inbetweeners mafia Game Over - Bully for you!

[Zang]

Vote: Don't Lynch Me

You're just asking for it.

[Zang]

@Peregrine, Zang and DLM – why are you ignoring the righteous Furc wagon?

I prefer the righteous DLM wagon.

You can't try to steer the town on Page 1. I don't know you, I don't know how good you are, but I don't know why people would follow you.

Despite being annoying, his self-confidence is justified.

[Zang]

Unvote

Come on, Lanthir's too douchey to be scum.

I'm not sure about that. I think that Lanthir is too douchey regardless of his alignment.

Trying way to hard to be helpful = scum.

So town shouldn't try to be helpful?

Bookmarking this in my ISO for an LaL lynch tomorrow.

D1, I need four more votes to lynch Furcolow before he confirms. Doing this pre-pg. 3 would be great.

I do not like this post at all.

What are you trying to imply with the first line?

Also, are you serious about trying to lynch somebody before they have even confirmed?

[Zang]

Trying way too hard to be helpful.

I still don't understand. Town shouldn't try to be as helpful as they can? I agree that scum do sometimes fake helping the town but I don't understand how you would distinguish that from town actually trying to help as much as they can, which any townie should do.

[Zang]

I'm pretty unimpressed by no comment on it otherwise. I mean yeah okay Fonz promised more, but Mr Ree, Zang? Why do you feel no need to comment on pretty much the first case of the game?

If I had something to comment on, I would have commented on it. The case is ok for page 2 but it isn't at all persuading me to vote, I can see his actions coming from town as well as scum.

Why do you think that his case is so amazing?

Maybe even a lynch.

Why would you want to lynch someone who hasn't even posted yet?

The first line isn't an implication at all, it's a clearly stated plan of action.

Ok then, why do you think he would be lying?

The answer to your second question is "deadly".

I don't remember playing with furcolow. However, I can think of no town motivation at all for wanting someone dead who hasn't even posted yet, regardless of who they may be.

This game is about interpreting behaviour based on motivation.

I am aware of that. I am asking you what, specifically, Xis did to make you think that he is motivated to help the town because he is scum rather than because he is town.

[Zang]

I guess because no one had even asked for meta. He quoted a bunch of people saying "why furc" and then proceeded to give up a bunch of furc games. It was like he was looking for an opportunity to seem productive. And the "you fine people" thing; smacks of sucking up.
That's how it looked to me.

Ok, this makes sense. Although, he does seem to have an overfondness for meta. From what I've seen, I don't really think his alignment affects that.

I completely agree with your second point though.

Question for you, Zang: Why aren't you voting?

I don't have a scum read that I feel confident in voting for yet, it's too early.

However, I am leaning scum on you due to your desire to lynch someone before they have posted as well as your general playstyle. I haven't voted because most of your posts are very logical and I like your case on ThAdmiral.

It's a pretty comprehensive case for early game, the first point being quite damning without a response.

But he did respond to it.

I don't know. I'm not a great believer in policy lynching, and I wouldn't be the one to hammer or even push the wagon towards a lynch, but I wouldn't have too many complaints if it went through.

I think this scummy. It seems like you are trying to support his wagon without actually being on it.

I treat lists of reads as a scumtell. Posting that you have a town read on X and a null read on Y is really not necessary if you are town because it should be clear from the content of your posts. Scum-town lists are a cheap way of looking to be getting content in, and scum do it so they can be all like "look at all my town-motivated reads".

I partially agree with this. Scum do use listing reads as an excuse to look town motivated and you should be able to discern a player's reads by their posts.

However, if scum provide a list of reads then they are locked into those reads. If town provide a list of reads then they are providing their reads to the town in a consise list so that you don't have to go looking through all of their posts in order to find their reads and it's all in one place. Read lists also provide the town a much easier way to understand your thought process as town.

Posting reads lists should not at all be discouraged.

Even if you don't agree with the above, it's a read similar to lurking. Despite scum using it and regardless of whether it is good or bad for the town, it can not be disputed that town do post reads lists often enough to make the read itself null.

[Zang]

Let's not have any pretence here, it was Fonz who brought up this theoretical if-you-voted-Furc line. I am not currently for his lynch.

Actually no, you brought it up with your first post:

"Oh wow even I know who Furcolow is. And I want to join on that."

My point was that, if you're scum, you were trying to support the wagon without actually being on it so that if there was a lynch, you could distance yourself from it, when it is revealed that he was town. Also, even without a lynch, you could still distance yourself from the wagon if you were ever found to be scummy because of it, as you are doing now. This is valid based off of that post alone

Also, Fonz thought that you were scummy because you were trying to support both RVS wagons, which is actually a good point. Regardless of whether you voted furc or not though or who brought it up, you still said that you wanted him to be lynched.

I also think that you changed your position on the furc wagon at least 5 times since the game started.

I find this all very scummy.

Vote: Jarvis

Scum are only locked into reads in the mind of scum. Town really shouldn't be bothered about changing their reads, save perhaps dented pride. I disagree with the stance that it is a similar tell to lurking. Lurking is anti-town, posting lists of reads is not. That's why scum do it, but I don't feel town should be motivated to do so. But theory and preference.

That isn't my major problem with Xis.

When, I say that scum are locked into their reads, I mean that it makes it much harder for scum to easily change their reads on someone in order to fit a situation, which they often do. So, posting a reads list should prevent this. Town should also always be willing to change their reads, if they see someting wrong with it, regardless of pride. Reads do change for town.

Posting reads list is both helpful to understand the motivations of town and also is helpful in catching scum.

When I say that it is a read similar to lurking, I'm not referring to whether it is anti-town or not, I already said that it is irrelevant. I meant that thinking that posting a reads list is scummy is similar to thinking that lurking is scummy, even if scum do it, enough town also do it to make it a bad read. I'm not sure about you, but I've probably seen just as much town as scum post reads lists. Regardless of whether the read makes sense in theory, if you use the read by itself to catch scum, you'll end up catching just as much town as scum, if not more.

That isn't my major problem with Xis.

If not then what is? I was under the assumption that it was.

fonz is town
moi is scum
VOTE: moi

Why?

[Zang]

Post 22 - Jarvis comments on joining the furc wagon but instead votes lanthir. A weak stance that could easily be dismissed later as it was just in RVS.
Post 49 - He says that he was never really suspicious of him.
Post 51 - Says that he hoped the wagon would achieve a lynch. A much stronger stance despite never voting for furc. Completely contradicts what he just said.
Post 74 - Now he says that he is not pushing the wagon and would not hammer but still wouldn't complain about a furc lynch.
Post 78 - After being called out, he says that he's not at all in favor of the lynch.

[Zang]

Zhang has brought up some good points. It sucks that he didn't link or quote the posts but he's making the effort which is more than I can say for you.

Sorry, here are the posts with links: post 22, post 49, post 51, post 74, post 78

How many votes are on MoI? He is fuckin' scum this game. Sheeping, and sucking Sotty's dick.

Please explain how he is sheeping.

Also, please explain your read on Jarvis.

Furc is among one of the five worst players on-site IMO. His responses at Post 88 and Post 90 don’t dissuade me of that notion. The sooner he leaves the game the better IMO regardless of his alignment.

Even if it was true that he is that bad, how is his play detrimental to the town? Many people have stated that he is a rather easy player to read. If he's scum then he'll be lynched, if he's town then why not just ignore him and prevent a town lynch?

So were you Town in ColdWar? Yes or no will suffice.

Regardless of his alignment in that game, isn't his point about furc still valid?

Other than this though, I think that you're case against ThAd is very good. I am currently getting many mixed reads from him and would really like him to respond.

What the fuck is this exaggeration?

Post 22 - both would be non-random votes, that was clear
Post 49 - well obviously
Post 51 - maybe a lynch, tying into not complaining about a lynch later on
Post 74 - that's basically verbatim of what I said and is not a change of stance
Post 78 - not currently in favour, still wouldn't complain too much

Post 22 - Can you explain what you mean by this?

Post 49 - So you attack me for exaggerating and then for stating the obvious? My point was to indicate how you were changing your opinions between posts, so yes, I would state what you said. I posted it in order so that other could understand how you flip-flopped on your opinion of a Furc lynch. You also do this exact same thing again when commenting on post 74 and you never even explain what exactly this exaggeration.

Post 51 - I can understand your opinion changing from wanting a lynch to not complaining about a lynch later, that makes sense. What I don't understand at all is going from not suspecting him to wanting him to be lynched in one post.

Post 74 - This is a complete contradiction of what you said concerning post 51, one sentence earlier. Your defence about post 51 is that wanting a lynch changing into not complaining about a lynch is natural and so not scummy, right? I agree with that. However, here you state though that no change took place. Regardless of this though, this point is still invalid. In this post you make what you actually said in post 51 seem much less in favor of the lynch then what you originally implied. Here you make it seem like in post 51 you said that you maybe would have supported a lynch. However, in the original post you said that you thought the furc wagon would result in "maybe even a lynch". This strongly implies that you thought a lynch was one of the best possible outcomes of the wagon. This is not at all the same as not supporting but also not complaining about a lynch, which is what you are saying here. I think that it is incredibly scummy that you would try to change what you previously said in order to defend yourself here. You did this not just once, but twice.

Post 78 - There is a difference between not complaining about a lynch and being against it, especially if you change from one to the other as a result of pressure.

Also, is this my only point that you are going to respond to? You're not going to address how you were wrong about Fonz bringing this up or my accusations that you were trying to support the Furc lynch without actually being on the wagon and that you did this so that later you could distance yourself from the wagon just as you are doing now? You're also not going to explain what your main problem with Xis is?

I'm not really sure about that assumption. It's just a question - i.e. was my vote better than a Furc vote?

Why ask Peregine?

Don't need a scumread to lynch someone.

Besides the fact that there is no town motivation for this, it is still a contradiction of what you said in post 74 which is that you don't agree with policy lynches.

Don't say I never gave you people fair warning.

UNVOTE: Furcolow

I don't really understand this. Why attempt to lynch Furc before he posted and give up after he did? Also, why not vote for someone else?

[Zang]

vote:

Xisiqomelir

Why?

I don't even get this line of argument. Lets say I hadn't used that argument before - does that make it an invalid argument on it's own merits? Do I have to have a precedence for each and every one of my arguments for them to be deemed acceptable (which brings up a fairly obvious logical quandry because there has to be a first time for everything).

I understand this and would have accepted it if you posted it when Magna first asked you but instead you said that you had examples in your meta. Since then, you have not provided examples of where it was used. You have made a claim but refuse to provide any proof. This is scummy.

Anyway, do you still think that Xis is scummy because he was trying to hard to be helpful?

I'm afraid its a matter of principle now.

If you are town, this is absolutely not a reason to get yourself lynched.

Well first let me say – I disagree with any assessment he is ‘easy’ to read. He looks completely scummy regardless of alignment in my experience.

As to why he is dangerous to have around as Town – do I need to explain this to you? You are experienced enough to have seen a game where a Derp VI is kept alive by scum for two reasons –

1. He’s a nice pocket mislynch later in the game for whenever they might need it.
2. All history shows he will be consistently wrong in scum-hunting and a nice tool for scum to use to mislynch Townies.

Both of those are very bad things for Town. So regardless of his alignment (be he scum or Town) his long-term existence in the game is a bad thing.

It is true that scum can use him as an easy mislynch later in the game but the best alternative is not to mislynch him day 1 instead. A mislynch is a mislynch regardless of when it takes place.

As i've said, I don't remember playing with him so I based him being easy to read off of what others have said. I also am not sure if you are correct when you say that he is consistently wrong when scumhunting.

I'll look into some of his meta later.

As you can see his “Furc is a wild-card and will likely attack me for defending him” didn’t come close to being true – Furc is calling him Town here.

This is the point that I was referring to. I was asking why his alignment mattered in the game that he referred to as an example of this, which is what you asked him. Even if his point isn't true, I would like to know why you asked for his alignment in that game.

[Zang]

[Hint - I'm not. It's sarcasm and I think your "hey I didn't get a message that the game has started" is a craptastic excuse since you've been all over the site and haven't managed the very difficult task of simply looking at the thread and noticing it said Day 1 and had multiple pages of content.

Why do you doubt him? I think it's just as likely that he actually didn't get his role or forgot to bookmark the thread as he purposefully ignored the game as scum. Why not just wait and judge him on his absence later when his alignment is clearer?

Xis is maybe town but I want him dead because I hate how he's playing.

There is no motivation whatsoever for town to want to lynch someone who they think might be town.

I also don't like how you are doing this even though you stated that you don't really believe in policy lynching.

Zang is spinning so much shit out of a perfectly clear position.

Sure, you don't have to actually respond to any of my points or answer questions that I directly asked you. It just makes it more clear that you are scum.

Because Xis doesn't completely make sense as town. See unjustified policy lynch push on Furc, poor excuse for a stance on you and Sotty. I want explanations for those before I will think of moving.

Wanting explanations is different than wanting him dead.

I disagree. This is a very beneficial precedent that I'm more than happy to set for myself.

If you are town, your alignment will be revealed eventually. The precedent would be set without you dying for it and hurting the town with an avoidable mislynch. What you are doing is just selfish,

If you are scum then you are using this as an excuse not to not provide meta because you know that you have never used the tell, in which case you're caught in a lie and probably doomed anyway. This would also explain why you haven't responded to anything else. I'm starting to think that this is the case.

[Zang]

Yates- What is your opinion on the game so far? Who do you think is scum? Why? Is there any way to get you too actually contribute content to the game?

Magna- Do you have any thoughts on the games that Fonz referred to?

but I'm pretty sure there are 2-3 wall cases against him. I haven't read nor evaluated them yet.

Do you plan to?

In truth I am, but I genuinely don't like being pestered about my meta and I feel questions like "prove that you've used this argument before" are sort of rude, and more importantly ignore the actual point of the argument which should be judged on its own merits rather than whether the player happens to have used it before.
I explained my stance in 67 - I really should have been judged on that not on whether I've used it before. As you can see it's caused quite a distraction in this game (which I am partially responsible for, yes).

At least for me, I don't think that you are scummy because you can't provide meta for a scumread. I think it's scummy that you won't provide meta but insist that you have it.

I find it unlikely scum would admit to being happy to lynch someone who they didn't have a scumread on. Plus his frustration reads as genuine.

The person who Jarvis wants to lynch without having a scumread on was Furc who at that point hadn't even posted. If he said that he had a scum read on Furc then he would be blatantly lying. The only way for him to explain his motivations for wanting him to be lynched was to say that he didn't have a scum read on him. He didn't have much of a choice.

Also, his frustration to me seems like an excuse to avoid responding to me.

[Zang]

Will you read and reply, in full, to Zang's #106, which is the oldest post you have failed to address?

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the the oldest post that he hasn't responded to in full is my post 80.

@Zang: Please specify whether you clearly understood that intent from my answer to you

I have understood the intent of your furc wagon since you answered my question.

Why do you ask this? And what are your thoughts on all the games both Fonz and I linked to / discussed?

I ask because of the list that you made on ThAd's meta which provided different results. I really didn't think about the fact that you only looked at games in the past year. I really don't see how that matters though. If I think that something is scummy now, it's rather likely that I will still think that it is scummy one year from now.

I don't really have any thoughts on the meta that either of you provided. As I have said, I don't really care if he has the meta or not, I think it's scummy that he insists that he has it but refuses to provide it.

[Zang]

Yes I agree. However if there is a Tell (in this case the "Trying Too Hard") that someone believes in that isn't very unusual (and "Trying Too Hard" is hardly a niche element) you would think that Town ThAd would have used it in a meaningful and successful fashion over the last year's worth of games. No evidence exists that he has. Thus one aspect of his play that I find scummy - that he is using 'Tells of Connivance' as opposed to honestly scum-hunting.

Yes, if you think that something is a scumtell, it is reasonable that you would have used it at least once in the past year. However, just because he has not used it in the past year does not mean that you should dismiss the cases of him using the tell prior to that. The latest game that Fonz has listed, New Designer Mafia, ended in Apri 2011. That really isn't that long ago.

This as well as the use you found in TV mafia, within the last year, makes me think that he does believe in the tell. Although, this does not mean that he is not using the tell now because it is the most convenient

I never said it was a great exertion. I said I wasn't going to do it because (I believe these were my exact words) "I have neither the time nor the inclination".

So saying that it's takes too long and that you don't want too is diferent than saying it's a great exertion?

1. I've definitely said this a million times: I wasn't buddying I was just giving my opinion.

Regardless of how many times that you've said it, that does not make it true.

[Zang]

I’m not sure your point here. A game ending in April 2011 was concluded 1 year and 9 months ago. By any definition that’s far closer to two years than one. So I’m not sure why you suggest it wasn’t “that long ago” for purposes of this discussion.

I said that it was not long ago considering that he joined in 2006 and that your cutoff was only one year ago.

Does that look like a slam-dunk “This indicates scum’ tell to you? Frankly the bolded directly undercuts his suggestion that it is a valid scum tell as he is directly stating “It could also come from Town”. Furthermore looking at his ISO (which ends shortly afterwards) he never even votes PJ based on that.

Regardless, he did use the tell and he did use it on scum.

I do agree though that the other games Fonz refrenced aren't valid examples. Although, just because he is scum doesn't mean that he thinks differently as town.

Did you actually follow the links I provided and do any analysis on your own? I said originally I didn’t think it was valid because

1. CastleBravo was Town so it isn’t a successful use of the tell first and foremost.
2. ThAd makes post 1901 on Day 2. He doesn’t even vote Castle til post 2443 on Day 4. And by this point CB has already derp-claimed as Vengeful. So no relation to the tell and the reason for ThAd’s vote.

You say judge for yourself and then you attack me for judging differently then you.

1. I don't see how it matters if he used the tell on town. It still shows that he believes the tell.
2. You don't need to vote someone in order to think think that they are scum.

Yes. Great exertion ignores the "inclination" part which is at least half of it. And I wouldn't say it is "great" effort, which would be an exaggeration.

So then why not do it if it wasn't such a great effort? I don't understand why you didn't have the "inclination".

Yes but it doesn't make it untrue, and more to the point moi saying the opposite a million times doesn't make that true either.

That's true but he isn't just saying it, he's backing it up with evidence.

[Zang]

I have already explained this - because I was asked in an abrasive way I got stubborn and didn't feel like complying. This coupled with the fact that it would have taken some time, not heaps but certainly a bit, to do I said "fuck it" and decided not to do it.

What do you usually do when asked for meta?

He provided evidence that I agree currying favour is something scum do. But am I currying favour here?

Thank you. This is exactly what I meant when I referred to evidence. I do agree with you on this particular point.

And when you move your vote off someone, it usually means you've changed your mind. Do you not find that?

He was, pretty obviously, asking what made you change your mind.

Are you trying to line up a Yates mislynch tomorrow for when ThAd flips Town?

Are you this confident that ThAd is town?

Well we disagree that he actually used it given that post in question was an epic fence-sit and he never actually pursued Petroleum. In fact his “MoI always posts like this so he isn’t trying too hard” clashes with that since PJ posts in a similar style IMO.

Maybe but what is important about it is that he does, at least in some way, believe in the tell as town. Even if he was fence-sitting. You might be right about PJ trying to hard clashing with how he didn't think you were scummy for trying to hard, but I have not played enough with him to judge for sure.

1. Well I think it cuts to his belief in the tell since he used it to suspect Town. Hard to have much faith in a certain Mafia behavior if you only pursue it against Town.
2. And the rest of his play in that game doesn’t really show he was interested in pursuing Castle as Scum until Castle scum-claimed to use his vengeful. So I don’t understand your point here.

1. That would be true if he used the tell in all of his games and each time it was against town but we are only looking at two games.
2. I only glanced over the game. I don't really know what lead him to vote for Castle but even if it was based on his claim, I doubt that he didn't take into consideration what happened previously in the game.

What do you think about all the OTHER elements of my case on ThAd?What do you think about all the OTHER elements of my case on ThAd?

I think that ThAdmiral is scummy because of his refusal to post meta and for completely changing his position on Jarvis

As for your case based off off what you said in post 151, I think that the points about him buddying VIs and his "I don't like you" reason are weak as I can also see him doing it as town. Your other points are pretty good.

[Zang]

Jarvis, Here is the reasoning for why I think you are scummy since you won't respond to them unless they are posted concisely.

1. In RVS, you tried to push the furc wagon without actually being on it. If he was lynched and was town, you can say that you were never actually for his lynch and if he was scum, you could point out how you were in favor of the lynch. This is true while simultaneously pushing the Lanthir wagon.

2. When the above started to be brought up, you tried to blame Fonz.

3. Voting ThAd based solely off of Magna's case only to unvote him 2 posts later.

3. You wanted the furc wagon to result in a lynch without actually thinking that he was scummy. In addition, you said that you weren't a big believer in policy lynches. This is also true with you vote on Xis.

4. Despite voting him in post 62, and despite me asking for it in post 80, you have never provided the main reasoning behind your Xis vote.

5. You changed your opinion on the Furc wagon several times. You have also done this with your opinion on Xis.

6. When you respond to the above point:

• - You claim it is an exaggeration but when responding to the actual changes in your opinion that I refrenced, you attack me for stating exactly what you said.
  - You post a point concerning post 22 that I did not understand. I later ask you to clarify but you never do so.
  - You completely ignore the biggest change of opinion that I was trying to point out.
  - In one sentence you claim that your change from post 51 to 74 was natural and so not scummy, in the next sentence you claim that there was no change between post 51 and 74.

7. One of my biggest scum reads of all is that you completely ignored my case except for the above point which you never address my responce too. You haven't responded to anything else that I have posted since.

8. You attack me and try to discredit my case but you never explain why my case is such shit.

9. Unneccessary aggrevation as seen in posts 130 and 142.

10. You unvote without any reasoning.

11. You say that posting walls isn't pro-town but you didn't have a problem with them in your posts 74 and 101.

[Zang]

Yates- Why do you consider Jarvis and DLM to be town leaders?

Do you think from the meta brought up by MoI and Fonz indicates I have or haven't used that tell in the past/believe in that tell. Does this matter, or is the refusal itself the scummy part? If so, why?

I could care less if you have the tell in your meta or not, but yes, I do believe that as town, you would consider it scummy. I don't think that you believing in the tell as town, however, means that you weren't just using it here as scum because it was the best thing to accuse Xis with.

The refusal to provide meta itself is what I find scummy. You have made a claim but you refuse to back it up. It's as if I called you scum but never explained why I thought so. This is very scummy.

As to the second part please explain why my flip on jarvis is scummy? Without wanting to go to far in to wifom here if I did want to try and get someone else lynched jarvis is probably the most obvious next option. Why do you think it was scummy of me that I decided that he read town to me, rather than continuing to pursue him as a suspect?

I think that you and Jarvis might be scum together.

Originally, after I made my first case against Jarvis, you were supportive of it and similarly to Jarvis and the furc wagon, you were supportive of the wagon but never actually voted for him. At that moment, it would seem like you were scumhunting and later in the game, with Jarvis dead, you could point to those posts and say that you thought he was scummy.

Now, however, you just come out and say that you think he is town with little reasoning. I think that this is because you noticed how much support his wagon was getting and because of how you are generally, the town's biggest scum suspect, you realized how bad it would be to try and push a Jarvis lynch because as you just said, he would probably be the town's next lynch. If you were both scum, that would leave two scum dead by the end of day two.

[Zang]

Can you explain to me the scum motivation for what I did?

I'm sorry, I though that the scu motivation was rather obvious especially with the analogy. Like I said, you are making a claim but aren't providing any evidence to support this. The scum motivation is that, as scum, you thought that you didn't have any evidence to support it but you also thought that to admit that you were wrong about the tell and that you lied about being absolutely certain that you had the meta. You would have known that this would make you look scummy. So, you refused to provide it while still claiming that you were certain that you had it. You thought that by refusing to provide meta and that giving the explanation that this wad because it was "a matter of principle", you could avoid being caught in a lie and hopefully, convince the town that you were just town being a dick in order to prove Magna and Xis wrong.

If you were town, you first never would have claimed that you were 100% certain that you had meta for it and then, if you found out that you didn't, you would have just admitted that you were lying. This is because, as town, you would have known that telling the truth would have been most beneficial to the town and you would have done this because you would have nothing to fear if you were suspected for it because you would know that your actions were town motivated. This is not the case.

Do you not concede, however, that the simplest explanation (which, as is often the case, is the correct one here) is that I just had a change of heart regarding jarvis?

I don't care about the simplest explanation. I care about the explanation that best makes sense based on what has been said in the thread. The facts that your "change of heart" was supported by little reasoning, was seemingly random and happened after more people have become suspicious of Jarvis all support my explanation especially with Jarvis already likely to be scum.

Which is precisely what I am trying to do. By not being on the ThAd lynch and making my opinion known, I'm clearly trying to pursue alternative avenues that *I* believe are more likely to yield scum.

Then why aren't you voting?

*shrug* I can't back up "gut," MoI, no matter how hard I try. I have a strong gut read on ThAd being Town but acknowledge I have no actual objective case on making him Town. If I did, I would present it. As it is, I suggested looking at recent meta as that's all I am basing my read on.

You don't base either of those posts off of your reasoning behind it though. In one post, you said that you thought there was 7 to 1 odds that he was town and in another post you said that you don't have strong convictions over his alignment. This is obviously a contradiction and does not have anything to do with whether it was a gut read or based on provable facts.

This is your explanation. It is largely based around how you played as town in another game and how you assume you might play as scum in the same situation.

Where did he say this?

1) that may have been an exaggeration only because you can never be 100% sure of anything. How sure can you be without being able to produce any examples of the top of your head? Lets say 95% sure.

Before making the claim that you were 100% sure, why didn't you check to make sure that you did have the meta?

[Zang]

Jarvis- I'm sorry that I thought that I could get you to adress my case in full without having to make a series of posts over an excessive amount of time. Although, you clearly want this. Another point to add to my case.

First, I would like you to address my first point.

"1. In RVS, you tried to push the furc wagon without actually being on it. If he was lynched and was town, you can say that you were never actually for his lynch and if he was scum, you could point out how you were in favor of the lynch. This is true while simultaneously pushing the Lanthir wagon."

Also, why did you unvote now? Your unvote was in your eighth post since furc voted.

[Zang]

Jarvis- All you have ever said concerning it was to blame Fonz for bringing it up. That is irrelevant though and you have never actually responded to the point

[Zang]

I guess I'm a complicated man, Zang. But thank you for restating what I have already said; my gut tells me ThAd is "7:1 odds" Town but I have no objective reason ["provable facts"] to back it up

I know that. I don't care about what your reasoning is behind it. In one post you said that you were rather confident that ThAd is town and in the other you said that you weren't sure. This has absolutely nothing to do with what your reasoning was behind it. This is a complete contradiction and you do not address it.

@Zang – your Jarvis wagon isn’t really getting traction. It appears you read ThAd as scum. Why not move your vote to him to help propel the game forward?

Because there is no rush and I am much more confident in my read on Jarvis than my read on ThAd.

This is probably the least you have seen me publicly scum hunt - even as scum in other games. I can't tell you why I am not hitting my stride in this game but I haven't yet. That doesn't make me scummy so much as ineffective right now.

It doesn't necessarily make you scum but it does make you look scummy.

[Zang]

Mod- You have Jarvis listed twice in the vote count.

Peregrine- Can you explain what you figured out from your "wall reading and fact checking day"? Can you also explain your reads?

Some of the points against Mr_Ree are valid but I would much prefer a Jarvis lynch.

Well my problem is that there is a rush. There is no need to draw out the day just needlessly. If you read ThAd as scum you should vote him rather than dither around with your own vanity wagon. Because what tends to happen when people do this is for deadline to approach and a deadline scramble to happen. Very rarely do those benefit Town.

Except that the Jarvis wagon now has just as much support as the ThAd wagon, that wouldn't have happened if I unvoted.

Don't like how Zang floats the possibility of supporting the ThAd lynch and hides behind MOI.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

[Zang]

Jarvis- You have not responded to my post 291. Was it not concise enough for you?

[Zang]

Well let me ask you this – what are you reads on your wagonmates (who as of my post consist of MrRee, Amrun and Yates)?

Mr_Ree I'm not really sure about. He was lurking but now seems like he is trying to provide content. I'm probably going to look at his meta later.
I don't really have a read on Amrun.
Yates is scummy but my gut is telling me that he is town.

:sigh: Why is Jarvis scum? Do it MoI style with posts and such, please.

Didn't Mr_Ree just do this?

I do agree though that DLM should have provided reasoning for why he voted.

I know my own mind; I know, for example, that I have used the tell against people that haven't posted in a while and then have come in and posted a reads lists so they can look like they are doing something helpful for the town. I can't remember for the life of me where but I know I have.

You didn't have to provide meta though. If you explained this and also said that you didn't need meta in order to consider it to be a scum tell, I would have accepted that. You dug your own hole.

To clarify I thought it was off that he said he would have been fine if furc had been lynched, but then said he didn't have a scumread on furc. For most people on this site this would be scummy, but I feel he was coming from a perspective that these two things aren't mutually exclusive (a perspective that I can only assume comes from wherever he played before)

Regardless of whether it is scummy to want someone lynched who you don't think is scum, I think that it is scummy that he says this even though he previously said that he didn't really like policy lynches.

It's also scummy that he continued to think this with his vote on Xis and has basically done almost no scumhunting all game.

Which go out of their way to put so many people offside. I don't see scum saying this.
I don't see scum admitting they wanted to lynch someone who they didn't have a scumread on.

But you see town saying that?

Scum wouldn't easily admit it unless they knew that they couldn't come up with a good reason as to why he was voting otherwise.

Because that would require me trawling through my history, which, as I've already established, I didn't fancy doing.

So instead you make up claims that you weren't sure you could easily support later?

[Zang]

Jarvis- You attack Mr_Ree for saying that he was voting for you for information but still never actually respond to why he or anybody else thinks you're scummy.

The scummiest thing he does is support the furc lynch in RVS without ever voting and I'm not even sure I can hate on him for this. He's pretty clear about his positions and it feels like Zang is locked in a little here. Some of the points against him aren't even scummy like the over aggression for example. I can understand his frustrations a little, there is a lot of fluff for a day one case.

Over aggression by itself isn't scummy. I meant that it was scummy how he used it in order to avoid responding to others.

You don't think it's scummy how he has completely ignored my case against him?

If anyone was curious, this head is fine with a Jarvis wagon as well. I'm pretty sure I listed my suspicions earlier in the game.

You aren't going to respond to what sotty said to you?

You should also respond to ThAd, who actually makes a good case against you.

I agree that these things are "scummy" in the classical sense, but...this is tricky to put in to words...I feel he is being "scummy" but he is not actually scum. Do you get what I'm saying?

I understand what you are saying but I don't understand how you get that from Jarvis.

I see a player saying that who has come from a different background and a different meta.

You don't even know what meta Jarvis has.

Regardless of what meta he has though, I don't understand how it could affect him into playing this way.

[Zang]

You are watering down what I have said considerably here.

I have responded adequately to why he "thinks I'm scummy". As to everyone else, I believe that I have said enough.

You responded to one sentence of why he thought you were scummy. All that you have said about anything else he has said is that he copied his case from myself and others. However, you have not responded to what you accuse him of copying.

[Zang]

I think that scum will probably be within DLM, Peregrine or possibly Amrun. I would probably guess DLM though.

Mr_Ree's participation at the end of yesterday and today don't make me think of him as scum.

I don't really think that ThAd is likely to be scum now as half of the reasons for why I thought that was because of his relationship with Jarvis.

Xis- Can you please explain what about Amrun's meta makes you think that she is scum?

Jarvis was a crap lynch yesterday.

Is there a reason why you didn't try to explain this then?

So I was only correct in 2 out of the 4 games that I looked at (3 out of 5 if you include dc which I was in), but he did surprise me in Murder in the Louvre and Vedere le Viste, and Phineas and Ferb wasn't exactly like his normal town style.

What conclusions did you draw from this relevant to this game?

Sorry, by 'slew of other people' I didn't realize you meant just Fonz, as he's the only one you point out in particular. Why would Ree kill Fonz instead of Sotty? Just cos he was being voted by him? Does Fonz look more town than Sotty did? Come on, elaborate means elaborate. And if there is a slew of other people feel free to mention them.

You don't think that someone voting for you is more threatning than someone who isn't?

Also, are you not going to respond to his point about your play yesterday.

Scum posting. ThAd himself falls right into the third category himself for Sotty

I think that ThAd would have been more likely to kill you or Xis.

Amrun lurks as scum and I've already shown that I find her contributions to be more or less devoid of scum-hunting content

This may be true but Amrun did only have 6 posts.

They sound similar because they rely on the fallacy that scum always acts like scum, and town always acts like town.

It is true that scum do not always act as one would expect scum to act and town do not always act as one would expect town to act. However, both town and scum are motivated in some way to act in order to benefit their alignment. You can not just dismiss a case against someone by saying that some people act differently than what is expected of their alignment.

[Zang]

To your second point I agree that scum and town are motivated to act to benefit their alignment, however I don't think labelling someone's play as "lacking protown scumhunting" is an all that effective technique to catch mafia, as "scumhunting" is the most obvious and easy thing to fake as scum, and furthermore fits in to the scum mentality because "pretending to be protown" would be a benefit to their alignment.

How can you catch scum without relying, at least partially, on analyzing their motivations?

You can't just dismiss a case because some people as town act that way, this is true with pretty much any scumtell. Some people may do it as town but more people do it as scum and it is motivated by scum behavior so it should be considered a scumtell.

So you agree she didn’t scum-hunt in her posts but it’s not alignment indicative for you since she lurked?

Her posts were not devoid of content but for the most part, I don't really think she contributed much to the game. It's also not like this happened throughout all of yesterday, she did replace in late. I just think she should be given more time before she is labeled as a lurker. For now I think she should be given the benefit of the doubt, that her lack of posts is due to being busy, unless she continues to lurk.

@Zang-449- You seem to have a much higher opinion of MrRee posts/content than many other people. If you haven't explained it somewhere in the next page(19), please do.

I don't have a very high opinion of Mr_Ree, I just believe that he has been trying to post content in the last few pages and that his alignment should be judged based off of the content that he has provided rather than his lack of content earlier in the game.

re:Jarvis- no votes on his, no suspicion of him, and said he was probably town in 327.

Saying that you though he was probably town is not explaning why you thought that.

It was obvious that Jarvis was a rather common scum suspect so why didn't you try and dissuade the town from lynching him if you thought that he was town?

As an exercise in what I mean, ISO Jarvis, ISO MrRee. Jarvis is town, so compare his posts/content to MrRee.

I'm not sure what you are trying to show me.

[Zang]

I'm going to read over some of the players that I suspect over the weekend and hopefully by the end have much more developed scum reads.

I don't think I was clear so I will rephrase: I don't think whether someone is "scumhunting" or not indicates their alignment. This is because both town and scum have motivation to "scumhunt" - town to catch scum, scum to appear town. I would suggest mafia members "scumhunt" just as much as town members do, or at least close enough to not make a significant difference.
It is possible, however, to determine if someone is faking it or not and I believe this is a good scumtell. For example I think dlm is faking it in this game, and I believe there's a good chance moi is faking it as well.

Ok but how does this relate to Jarvis and Amrun lacking at scumhunting? Town and scum are both likely to try and scumhunt but this is only because they both have the motivation to do that. Only scum have the motivation to not scumhunt.

2. You make case on Jarvis and call him scum.

That’s it. A read of scum on flipped Town, and inferred reads on myself (scum) and ThAd (Town) that can easily be backed away from if you choose.

This is not "devoid of scumhunting".

So, if you are totally discounting his day1 contribution, what has MrRee contributed in the above 3 posts?

I am not totally discounting his day 1 contribution and have never said that I would. I never even said that I would be discounting any of his contributions. I said that I think he should be judged based on what content he has provided rather than the amount of content. This means the content he has provided now and earlier in the game.

As for the posts you qouted, Post 425 is an attempt by him at scumhunting although I do think it is scummy that he never really expanded on his voted on you as he promised. Post 428 is him asking for clarification on something that he didn't understand. In post 433, he provides his opinion on the night kill and asks relevant questions.

I did explain why- he was scumhunting- posting and responding and interacting. I don't know how much meta he has, but go look at town-Jarvis.

And thinking he was town and knowing he was town are two different things. If I was mason or had an innocent or strong evidence of Jarvis-town, then I would have said so and pushed that position.

How was he scumhunting yesterday and if he was then why didn't you point it out then?

If posting, responding and interacting is a town tell then how do you not think that every player in this game is town?

If you did not have strong evidence that Jarvis was town then why in post 420 do you say that it was "a crap lynch"?

I want you to look at Jarvis ISO for his content. You know he is town. Now look at 234, your case for why he was scum.
Now ISO MrRee. Does any of the non-spefici reasons for Jarvis apply to MrRee?

I still don't know what you are tring to show me.

Mr_Ree never tried to push a wagon in RVS while voting for someone else.
He never tried to blame his actions on someonw else.
He never sheeped someone elses case only to quickly discard it later.
He never encouraged a policy lynch while at the same time saying that he wan't a fan of them.
He never voted anyone without providing reasoning behind it.
He never changed his opinion on a player several times over a relatively quick period of time.
As far as I can tell based off of his Iso, he never completely ignored a case against him.
He never tried to discredit a case against him by insulting it.

1. Reason numero uno is his scummy hop onto the Jarvis wagon. He uses the 'information' justification, which is an easy thing for scum to do to pile a vote on a townie without associating themselves with the basis for the wagon.

If he didn't want to associate himself with the basis of the wagon then why in that post did he say that "Twice this game he has stated that he would Lynch players regardless of alignment simply for distaste of the player." and why would he go on to post a full case on him in post 341 which if anything, reinforced the basis of the wagon.

I get the feeling that we are thinking along the same lines. Why DLM over Peregrine or Amrun? I'm in focus mode on Peregrine so I'm having trouble looking past it.

Off of the top of my head, I can't think of anything that DLM has contributed to the game, I think that he was the person most likely to be scum on the Jarvis wagon, ThAd makes a very valid point when he says that DLM has just been posting questions to make himself seem to be contributing but without ever drawing any conclusions from them and DLM was my first thought when I saw that Sotty had been killed.

I'm starting to suspect Peregrine just as much as DLM recently though.

Your case isn't valid because my role PM says town.

I disagree with this in general. There are some people who play absolutely horrible and even thought they may be town, the case on them is completely justified.

what the hell is a strawman arguement?

A strawman argument is when you attack a single aspect of an argument and use it to descredit the whole thing.

2. Has he ever used it as scum? If you can’t show that this point amounts to “proving a negative” and isn’t valid.

Isn't this also true for your case against ThAd's too helpful tell?

7. We both have clear positions. I think it points far and away more to ThAd than Ree personally.

In post 485 though, you say that "if Sotty’s death points to anyone it is DLM given the fact Sotty voted him and not Ree".

I've found that pretty formatting or logic or ALLCAPRLOCKRAGE don't sell a case very well. I've done them all, depending on my mood, but not sure what you're looking for. My cases evolve as I feel/deduce/figure them out.

What do you mean when you say that logic doesn't sell a case very well?

You get 327 and 329. And I don;t have to prove he was town because..he was town.

I'm not sure what post 329 has to do with something and Listing Jarvis in a list of players who you though were town is not considered posting how you thought Jarvis was scumhunting and is not considered pushing against the Jarvis lynch.

[Zang]

As I previously stated I would do, I reread DLM, Peregrine, Amrun and Mr_Ree in order to get more developed reads on them as they were all lurking day 1. Here are my thoughts on what I saw:

DLM-

I don't like his early vote on Magna which he qucikly reversed in his next content post to sheeping Magna's vote on ThAd with little reasoning.

He asked me how Jarvis changed his opinion on Furc but even after I do, he doesn't really comment on Jarvis until asked by Xis.

In post 116 he said he would read up on the Jarvis case but as far as I can tell, he never did. It should be noted thought that in the same post he said he would read the case on Xis and did post his conclusions from that in post 200.

In his next few posts he reasonably attacks ThAd for not providinng his meta.

His responce to Xis in post 177 calling him pretensious is wierd especially when considered that he thought that his wagon was scum driven but I will just assume that he didn't develop that read yet. I do think it is scummy though that he didn't post any of his reads despite being asked for them.

I don't really think his vote on Jarvis is as scummy now as he clearly said that he was the best alternative to a ThAd lynch in posts 179 and 236.

He seems to be scumhunting in post 246.

I still don't like though how Nero Cain just comes in and says that Jarvis is scum without saying anything else especially since it was implied in post 308 that he was catching up and did have opinions, presumably on people other than just Jarvis.

I also extremely dislike how he refused to post why he thought that Jarvis was scummy and attacked Peregrine for asking for a case without previously stating any suspicion of him.

His content so far today is acceptable although I do think it is wierd that he hasn't voted someone and isn't even really giving off any implications that he even has scum reads.

------

Peregrine-

It's pretty scummy how in post 103 he says that it is pretty obvious that Lanthir was town by post 19 but in post 26 he says that he didn't have a read on him yet.

Also in post 103, I don't like how he attacked MrRee for not reading furc's meta but later in the same post acknowledged that he did.

I do like though how he attempts to push MrRee to post what points of mine against Jarvis that he thought were good in post 104.

I dislike how he votes Yates in post 40 for being the only person to not confirm besides furc but in post 154 is much more understanding of Yates for only posting one-liners.

It's scummy how in post 164, he lists his contributions to the game as "Got some town reads, gave reasons why I think Ree is scummy" despite the fact that he never called anyone town except Lanthir. Even if he did though, I fail to see how it would have contributed anything to the game.

He said that "Today is wall reading and fact checking day." in post 269 and only returns with a generic reads list without really any explanation even after I asked him.

I think that it is really scummy that he says that he thinks that both ThAd and Jarvis are town at this point but didn't once try to attack the case against them in the hopes of preventing a mislynch.

Even with his "wall reading and fact checking day", he is unawate of the case against Jarvis in post 363.

I think that he mostly lacks scumhunting for the last half of day 1, he votes MrRee throughout the day but the last time he really provided any reasoning for it was in post 103.

Post 502 was the first time that he really added anything to his case against MrRee and I'm not even really sure what he's trying to attack him for in that post. He ignores MrRee's question asking him for why he thought the Jarvis lynch was crappy, he says that MrRee should have provided reasoning for his vote similarly to how Fonz did in post 490 but he doesn't actually say what he though was wrong with his reasoning and he quotes MrRee saying what information he gained from the lynch without drawing any conclusions from it.

His recent vote on DLM confuses me especially since he has spent most of his time in this game voting for MrRee.

------

Amrun-

Amrun replaces in at post 283 but doesn't actually provide any content until post 314.

In post 314, she comments on an early post by Magna and another by Jarvis and says that she has caught up to page 6. I think it is scumy that she doesn't give any indication later in the game that she has read any farther than that later in the game.

She does seem to imply though in post 315 that there will be a complete catch up post eventually. The lack of one is also scummy.

She doesn't provide any other content for the rest of the day.

She is mostly trying to defend herself day two. She makes a good point about this in post 445 when she attacks Xis for basing his vote completely on meta from one scum game.

It's scummy though that in post 445 she says the MrRee was her second scum suspect day 1 despite not even mentioning him other than to ask him for his mafia experience.

She votes MrRee without ever explaining why she thought he might be scum.

she acknowledges in post 472 that she hasn't caught up with the game and even acknowledged that this lead her to playing badly in another game.

------

Mr_Ree-

I agree that his stance on the furc meta early in the game is wierd but I don't see anything neccessarily scummy about it especially since it does seem that he read at least some of them.

He kept his vote on Xis far too long.

In post 87 he says that I made some good points about Jarvis but he doesn't actually explain what those points were until post 341. This is also pretty much the next time he posts any content.

The accusation that information was his sole reason for voting Jarvis in post 306 is absurd.

His case on Jarvis in post 341 is reasonable but most of it are points that I had already made about Jarvis.

I don't like that after he made his case against Jarvis, he spent the rest of the day defending himself rather than continuing to scumhunt. It is good though that he is posting more though than he was in the first half of day one.

When day two starts, he votes Peregrine in post 426. I agree with most of the reasoning behind his vote. Although, I do think that he should have a more devloped case on him.


Questions:

DLM- Can you please provide a list of your reads? Why did you think that Peregrine was scummy? Did Jarvis flipping town affect this read?

Peregine- Can you provide the reasoning for your town reads? Specifically, What about ThAd and Jarvis made you think they were town? What do you agree with or not agree with on the ThAd wagon? Why haven't you already posted the answers to these questions? Why do you think that DLM is scum? Does this affect your read on MrRee?

Amrun- Have you read anything past page 6 and before you replaced in? Do you plan on doing so? Why do you think MrRee is scummy? What are your reads on everybody else?

Mr_Ree- Can you post a complete case against Peregrine?


Conclusions:

DLM- Not as scummy as I originally thought but I am still suspicious of him. I think that the two heads need to work on their communication with eachother and I'm particularly concerned with their lack of reads.

Peregrine- Just as scummy as I originally thought if not scummier. I especially don't like how he didn't try to defend ThAd or Jarvis even though he thought that they were the two largest wagons yesterday and he had a town read on both of them. This seems like scum who doesn't want to be on the wagons so that he can be seen as town for thinking of them as town but who doesn't want to risk derailing the wagons if he tries to defend them. I don't think that his case on MrRee was that good either.

Amrun- I'm actually surprised because she is much scummier than I thought before. She's voting for someone without any reasoning and hasn't fully caught up yet. I also think now that she was probably the worst vote on the Jarvis wagon. She's probably my second largest scum read now.

Mr_Ree- Slightly scummier than I would probably consider him as a slight town read. This is mostly because of Peregrine's case against him and the fact that he seems to be thinking similarly to me on Peregrine and previously on Jarvis.


For now though, I think I'm most confident in my scum read on Peregrine.

Vote: PeregrineV

[Zang]

MORE PEREGRINE VOTES PLEASE

People aren't going to vote him just because you asked them to.

And no, the whole "I don't have time" excuse isn't flying. She lurks as scum. It's proven.

Just because someone normally lurks as scum, doesn't mean that they can't have real problems that prevent them from posting as town.

I'm not saying that Amrun isn't scummy but I just don't think that votes like this should be based solely on meta.

Given I don’t buy or even understand any of the points I still suggest Amrun has done no actual scum-hunting and needs rope.

I see what you mean but I still don't think I would go as far as to describe Amrun's play as to be completely devoid of scumhunting.

I may not have been explicitly clear in this given the whole argument with Fonz revolves around him and Amrun being scummy for attacking Ree – I think ThAd is far more likely scum than DLM. I think between DLM and Ree the Nightkill would point to DLM IF you were only narrowing the list to those two (which Fonz was doing). I don’t believe that to be the case (DLM and Ree being the only ones it points to) but if I were to choose between them DLM would be the correct conclusion IMO.

I'm not sure that I buy this. Fonz may have narrowed it down to either DLM or MrRee but Amrun didn't. In her original post, she said that she suspected MrRee for the kill and never even mentioned DLM or ThAd. You are the one who said that if anyone was to blame for the Sotty kill it was DLM. You are the one who brought up DLM rather than ThAd, not Amrun.

No given the start of that argument linked to Saw Mafia where Town ThAd completely ignored the same “Trying Too Hard” argument that was thrown at Town me. And that he has used it as scum before (in my Meta review).

Which games? You don't list that you found any uses of the tell as scum in your post 122.

I'm not even going to bother continuing to argue with you as you just keep dodging the questions that are uncomfortable to answer, cropping my responses to suit whatever witty comeback you have planned, and misinterpreting (purposefully) what I am saying.

Rather than just giving up, can you show how he has done this?

[Zang]

74
101
382

I mentioned this in 349

Linking to posts made by Jarvis does not prove that he was scumhunting. Also, you didn't think that a gap of 300 posts between posts of his which you thought demonstrated scumhunting was odd?

Also, you have still failed so far to show were you "pushed against the Jarvis lynch in a Pro-active manner." Casually listing Jarvis in a list of town reads without explaining the read is not doing this.

I pointed it out generically when I gave my reads and the reasons behind them. There appeared to be no questions then about my Zang townread, nor the reason for it.

Yes, you did say that Jarvis was scumhunting if that is what you are refering to but that doesn't matter. I could easily call furc town because I see scumhunting in his posts but that does not mean that it was true. You provided absolutely no evidence to try and prove what you claimed. It's not just Jarvis either you should provide reasoning for all of your reads regardless of who they are.

You do notice I have many town reads at that point (7). But this question implies that I should have had a townread on Furc, DontLynchMe, Sotty, and Amrun. Why would I have townreads on them?

That is exactly my point. You said that Jarvis was town because "he was scumhunting- posting and responding and interacting." If you think that is true then why don't you think that everybody is town? Whether it's furc, DLM or MrRee, they are all "posting and responding and interacting."

Because it was, and there were at least 5 other people that should have been lynched before him.

Then why didn't you point that out yesterday?

You claim that you had a town read on Jarvis and that you considered it to be a crap lynch but yesterday you did absolutely nothing to try and prevent his lynch.

This looks like a list of reasons why Mr_Ree is town. But since we know town has done all of the above, does the fact MrRee has done none of that mean he is scum?

Of course! Not scumhunting, contradicting yourself multiple times, completely ignoring a case against you and voting someone that you think is town are all completely proven and valid town tells just because one incredibly scummy but town player did them in one game. (sarcasm)

If I was playing in a different game and somebody played in that game exactly as Jarvis did in this game, I would push for their lynch just as hard.

You were able to look at MrRee and say "I said that I think he should be judged based on what content he has provided rather than the amount of content. This means the content he has provided now and earlier in the game." does this not apply the DLM? What does your re-read of his day1 play and his day2 play tell you?

This does not apply to DLM because I don't really see him trying to provide content while I do with MrRee. I posted what I learned about DLM from my reread in the post with my reread.

Also, you have not yet addressed any of my questions to you from the reread.

That logic doesn't sell a case very well. I've made logical cases for why a player is scum before, and been dead wrong. I've done the same for why a player is town, and been dead wrong.

That may be true but how succesful were cases that you made which were illogical?

Yeah, I remmeber you saying that day1 when I posted that. Here was your comment on that post.

That's pretty much true. I didn't say as much as I could have about your play day 1 because I was trying to lynch Jarvis.

It is incredibly scummy though how you completely ignore the point that I was making.

Besides, you shouldn't need the provocation of other players in order to post the reasoning for your reads or to defend players who you think are town.

I notice you have said Amrun is scummy per your last wall o content. Do you think she and Peregrine are scum together?

It's possible. Neither one of them really refrences the other.

Fonz states the Nightkill points to Ree and DLM. Amrun states it points to Ree.
I call them both scummy for using Nightkill WIFOM regarding Ree in a scummy fashion.
Fonz and I get into a large debate about whether the Nightkill points to Ree. I state it points to ThAd at least as much as anyone else. He says it points more to DLM ignoring the original point I made.

If you want to take a point being made in an argument with Fonz unrelated to the points I was making that's your choice. A bad one but your choice.

I see nothing wrong with you calling their nightkill speculation scummy. I have a problem with how in one post you say that the nightkill indicates DLM and in another, you say that it indicates ThAd. I fail to see how these are unrelated. You claim that when you said it indicated DLM you meant if you had to chose between DLM and MrRee. I don't think that this is true because Amrun never even mentions DLM or Fonz in her post.

LIE, and easily proven one at that.

I believe that he is not refering to you not showing that Amrun isn't scumhunting but that within the post you linked, you claim that he might be considered scumhunting in responce to post 314 but continue to push that Amrun has done absolutely no scumhunting. ThAd pointed this out in post 495.

Listing why he was a townread.
Lack of voting him or expressing suspcion of him.

Generically saying that he was scumhunting is not explaining why he is a town read.

Not voting or expressing suspicion of someone does not mean that you are opposed to their lynch. I'm not voting for Furcolow and I don't think that I have really expressed suspicion of him but I still don't think I would complain if he was lynched. Besides, not voting him or expressing susspicion of him may not help his wagon but I do not see how it is trying to argue against or prevent a Jarvis lynch.

And as I've stated before, unless my townreads are uber-strong, I spend more time trying to find scum than defending town.

I don't see how you were trying to find scum during that that time either though.

don't like Zang's "leaning scum on xis, but you're logical so I won't vote you". The scumread gives him an excuse to vote him later on, but by just saying he's logical it allows him to get away with not voting.

So, as scum, on page 4, I had to make up a reason not to vote for someone who I said I was leaning scum on?

Also, how was my case on Jarvis bad? and how did ThAd latch onto my case when he never voted for Jarvis and even later in the day, called Jarvis town?

[Zang]

He posted a full case PRECISELY because he was being called scummy for the 'vote for information' comment. Comes under pressure, 'No look guys, it's not a vote for information, I have ALL THESE OTHER REASONS.' Imho, you lead with your best reason. Coming up with all that and downplaying the information reason AFTER being attacked for it said scumbag trying to come up with retrospective justification to me.

That could be possible but to me it seems like he just posted without thinking too much about it.

And, no. I am not going to tell you how suspicious I think you or Zang or MrRee are until I am voting for you.

What do you mean by this?

Yes, that's what I said.

That's completely illogical though. It's not like I posted a well devloped case completely showing the scum motivation in each of his posts and that was the only reason that I gave for not voting. I didn't even need a reason to vote for him in the first place. I'm not going to vote anyone on page 4 just because I have a slight scum read on them. It would be unlikely for me to have voted for him if only one of those conditions was true.

Your case (I assumed you're talking about the one on page 4) is bad because it's entirely based on him flip flopping on page 4. That is not something scum do, scum try to look as consistent in their reads as possible early on and especially don't flip flop within a span of 5 posts. That's something town does actually. Scum very rarely "scumslip" like that, and it seems like you're grasping at straws for a scum motivation when there is none. But that is neither here nor there. No point arguing over a dead player's alignment.

Town do flip flop but so does scum and they do so for completely different reasons. I read Jarvis flip flopping on Furc to be scum motivated. I do admit though that I was wrong about this

That wasn't my main case on him though, it's just how my case on him started. My case on him is actually explained most completely in post 234 on page 10. On this list, him flip flopping on furc was just one of many reasons, most of which I still believe were justified.

And how was I supposed to know ThAd would just drop the case and call him town later on?

Fair enough. I wasn't sure when you were in relation to ThAd changing his read.

@ Everyone: I want everyone who actually thinks MoI is town to read his posts. Yes, all of them. Not just the ones that he posts directly to you.
I know it's difficult because there is a lot of bullshit to wade through, but I implore you to do it and then tell me that he is still a townread afterwards.

I have. I agree that some of the poits he has made are pretty bad. However, I would say that this is more caused by tunneling as town than actual scum motivation. Magna also made some very clever points though which is why I think of him as town, although I'm not completely closed to suspecting him of being scum.

Lulz. Nothing has been proven to be wrong at all. Once again – you stating it has without providing links and explaining just means you are hoping I will not follow-up when I get a chance. Yet you making statements and refusing to back them up is not scummy at all. COGNITIVE DISSONANCE AWAY!!!!

You ignore the part where he points out that you did not address his original point and instead accuse him of cognitive dissonance.

The bolded is the funniest thing I’ve seen in a long, long time. Scum do that ALL THE TIME. They never kill threats to them. DERP.

ThAd never said that scum didn't kill players who they viewed as threats. They are both valid scum motivations for a night kill.

I look at the later posts because that's a more accurate sample of the state the game is in and who I will be playing with.

How does this not affect your perspective when viewing the rest of the game? Also, I doubt that you would have read any recent posts without somebody mentioning Jarvis or Sotty being town.

His alignment proves he was.

His alignment does not prove that you thought he was scumhunting though

Don't care about post count, or time between posts. That depends on time available.

But you also attacked me for looking at the content of MrRee's posts rather than their timing?

Regardless though, you don't think that him making 13 posts without scumhunting between post 101 and 382 to be odd?

And you'll never find it, because unless I have a reason, I will never push against a lynch in a pro-active manner.

So you don't think that you should defend somebody who you think is town against a case that you don't agree and possibly help prevent a mislynch? Also, The reason that you thought he was town wasn't good enough for you?

Do you have any meta to support your claim?

So you think I need to prove to you that I think Jarvis was scumhunting?
And that if my idea of scumhunting is different from yours (which it is), I need to prove that they were doing what you consider scumhunting?

It would be nice to prove that you thought that Jarvis was scumhunting but regardless, I think it is scummy that you did not provide your reasoning for why he was scumhunting in your original post calling him town.

I have no idea where you got the second part.

So now you are saying that you see the same level and effort from furc, DLM, and MrRee as Jarvis, ThAd, Fonz, and MoI?

No, that is not at all what I am saying. This isn't even close to what I was saying. In fact, this is what I was attacking you for.

In post 489, you say that you thought Jarvis was town because he was posting, responding and interacting and that this constituted scumhunting. In post 508, I ask how you don't think that everyone in this game is town by using your logic, because everybody is posting, responding and interacting. You never respond to this. You completely misrepresent my question in post 538 as though I was the one saying that posting, responding and interacting is a town tell and say that using that logic, I should also think that Furc, DontLynchMe, Sotty, and Amrun. YOU USED THE EXACT SAME THING AGAINST ME AS I DID AGAINST YOU. I try to point this out in post 545, by saying that this is exactly what my point was but in this post you again, misrepresent what I said and still think that I am the one who think that posting, responding and interacting is a town tell despite the fact that I never said this.

I find this very scummy.

You've already drawn conclusions, so what's the point of the questions?

My conclusions were based off of what I reread but the answers to my questions could affect this conclusion. My questions were also for various other reasons such as to clarify what I was unsure of or to add to my original reasoning about an alignment.

And of the ones I haven't answered, ThAd yesterday was better than ThAd today. While I enjoy a good MoI fight, at some point you have to continue playing the game anyway. I'd like to hear ThAd on other players, not just MoI.

I think DLM is scum because of yesterday's vote on Jarvis, and the non-contributory nature of the slot manned by 2 players. Through in Sotty's death, and his scum-chance really skyrockets.

MrRee was doing fine on his own at refining my read on him. Your insistence that he is/was providing content has actually hurt any positive gains he may have been making.

1. I don't think that really answers my questions about ThAd. You have not shown why you think that ThAd is town and you don't indicate what you disagree with on the case against ThAd.
2. Is there a reason for why you didn't provide your reasons with your vote?
3. I'm not sure what you mean about MrRee.

You also have not provided the reasoning for your other town reads.

[Zang]

DLM- Please answer my questions to you in post 516.

@Everyone: Does anyone have a strong read on Furcolow one way or the other? He's basically being ignored in this game. I have some thoughts I will share when I come back.

I'm leaning scum. He has basically done nothing this game besides randomly changing his votes. Normally I would consider that a huge scumtell but the problem is that I'm not sure if this really indicates him as scum or as a horrible player.

I would probably join a lynch against him though.

I said in the original post that she made a case on Jarvis. Making a case is not automatically scum-hunting. Scum make cases to achieve mislynches. As the link above demonstrates I found the case not credible at all and thus likely to come from scum.

This is circular reasoning.

She was scum because she didn't scumhunt.
She didn't scumhunt because she was scum trying to get a mislynch.

Yup. Scum love to buddy up to weak players (VIs like Furc especially) so that they eliminate the need to worry about suspicion coming from their direction. We’ve clearly been over this.

This only works if furc is town.

I’ll be frank – so what?

Well, it was a valid point against you and it does contribute to his argument that you cut his posts when quoting them as you see fit.

Again – you are wrong. Scum don’t kill those players who read them as solid Town

That might have been what he said in his original post but not in post 553 which is what I was defending.

You have seen me as scum Zang. You know very well I would not TeeHee kill of someone who read me as solid Town for shits and grins and you know there is not a single person in this game with the force of personality to change my mind on that fact.

Yes, I've seen you play as scum for one day in a game over a year ago.

[Zang]

AgentOrange- Are you going to respond to what I said to you in post 576?

MrRee makes several good points on the relationship between AO and Peregrine. I'm rather confident about them both being scum at this point. As much as I would like to see Peregrine lynched today though, with less than four days left until deadline, I think a vote on AO would be better.

Vote: AgentOrange

Do you intend to actually scumhunt or just ask me weak questions that won't help you figure out my alignment in an attempt to look like you're doing something?

Do you intend to actually contribute anything to the game or just give sarcastic responses to legitimate questions that others have asked you?

My Chainsaw sense is tingling. What's your read on Agent Orange?

Is this really the only thing you have to contribute to the game at this point?

Well, I'm fairly certain about your alignment, given that I've voted your slot all Day.

How does voting for his slot all day make you certain about his alignment?

I think it's better if the scum don't know exactly what I'm capable of, don't you think? I will claim if more people want me to.

Yes, because shouting that you shouldn't be lynched because you are a power role and that you don't want scum to know what you are capable of definitely does not make yourself a target for the scum, regardless of your claim. (sarcasm)

I think that you are just scum trying to get time to make a fake claim but still make sure that you aren't lynched.

Even if you are town though, I would like you to claim now. I can see no additional advantage that claiming now would give scum. This is especially true, since you are likely to get to L-1 anyway.

Because of the meta point above, I think I'd favor 3. I think 1 is the worst option (because we might not have anything capable of 100% confirming him, and in any case if we do that power might well be better served on someone like, say, DLM who is trying).

I don't understand. You previously say that he is playing to his scum meta but now, you do not want to lynch him.

[Zang]

Furc- Please claim.

I'm willing to hammer, especially with deadline in about a day but I would still prefer to lynch someone who I have a stronger scum read on.

I am Neil Sutherland 2 shot jailkeeper. I can send people to the hospital twice by giving them STDs, protecting them from kills but preventing their action. My first shot was used on MagnaofIllusion night 1.

I don't think I buy this.

Also, you ignoring my previous posts is rather scummy.

Good, maybe you can sum it up for me then. Otherwise, it sounds like Mr_Ree's case is that I voted him and think he's scum.

This completely ignores my case against you which I believe I have displayed very clearly.

Also, I expect you to respond to my last post to you.

So I'm scummy for not voting you, Xis, or Jarvis day 1?

No, it's scummy how you ride your vote on MrRee throughout the day with very little reasoning for it. The scum motivation for this was so that you could avoid those wagons.

Actually, my list is pretty exact (327, 349). Just because you disagree with it doesn't mean you can misrep what it says.

I have no idea how you can think of your reads list as very exact. Please explain though how he is misrepping it.

Yes. Your point? Do you read Furc as Scum or Town?

My point is that your point against ThAd relies on Furc being town. However, you seem to indicate that you don't think that furc is town.

I think that furc is scum, mostly because of his frequency of vote hopping, I wouldn't say that he's a very strong scum read though.

Oh, so you defending a post that was bad suddenly makes your point reasonable?

Except it wasn't a bad post. The point that I was defending was that scum kill people who they have a scum read on. This may not have been what ThAd said in his original post but it is reasonable.

1) I only skim, I don't read intensely. Mainly what I'm looking for is activity, what players have posted on the last page, is there a bunch of walls of text or little posts, is deadline close, etc. ? Just getting a general idea. I admit it might affect my perspective slightly, but it didn't really this game. (at least to my conscious knowledge, I can't claim to know if this affected me subconsciously)

You didn't notice though the lack of any posting by Jarvis or Sotty?

2) I answered that already by saying your question was stupid and looked like the kind of thing scum ask while active lurking. I will answer it if you can tell me why exactly you think this is important.

How do you think that actually reading walls is unimportant?What's the difference between doing that and not reading any of the game?

Even if it is stupid though, why not answer it anyway?

3) Well seeing as how post 548 is after post 544 and came after I read 10 more of the game's pages and thought about it more, it's safe to assume I changed my mind. So my opinion is obviously the second one now, I think they're both scum but unlikely scum together. I admit it's possible, just unlikely.

This is just avoiding the question. Obviously, your opinion changed. He was asking you for an explanation of what caused them to change.

[Zang]

We're massclaiming? I'm Alison, VT.

Also,

V/LA

for the rest of the week. I'll hopefully be able to post by sunday.

[Zang]

Well, I enjoyed this game. I do feel though that I messed up by leading the lynch on Jarvis and by defending Mr_Ree. To be honest though, I still feel that the Jarvis lynch was justified.

I am disappointed by Magna's actions although I think that I can now understand his reasoning for them. He is a good player though and I hope that he comes back to the site.