inbetweeners mafia Game Over - Bully for you!

[PeregrineV]

Vote: Don'tLynchMe

Since your requesting to be lynched...

[PeregrineV]

Also for the record, I had recently watched season 1 and 2 on netflix. I watched season 3 and the movie last night.

Funny ass show!!!

[PeregrineV]

Yay it’s Sotty!



I didn’t even realize you were in this game. You are Town, right? I have to think you are since you voted Furc … that’s an obvious Town move. Can this be the game we finally are on the same side, you don’t have to replace, and we destroy scum?

--

@Peregrine, Zang and DLM

– why are you ignoring the righteous Furc wagon?

Furc wagons are always righteous, but by the law of averages can't always be scum.

@Don'tLynchMe- Are you sure you didn't mean LynchMePls?

Vote: Lanthir

Why MoI?

[PeregrineV]

Why not?

When looking for scum, we like to examine the motives of town or the fake motives of scum. When you don't give a motive, it seems like you are trying to hide something.

@Jarvis- Not sure yet. Stay tuned.

[PeregrineV]

What are you waiting for?

Get a read on Lanthir.

[PeregrineV]

One other non confirming player

Vote: Yates

Lanthir probtown.

[PeregrineV]

fonz is town
moi is scum
VOTE: moi
.

C'mon Furc, this is a huge policy lynch discussion of you, and this is all you got?

Why, and why?

[PeregrineV]

I have some townreads, a few nulls. Scummiest so far:

VOTE: Mr_Ree

[PeregrineV]

And why is that exactly?

vote Lanthir

Gonna have to read up on furcolo... For now, lanthir is as good a choice as any.

First vote was obviously not RVS. It was a choice. And having read the thread, which you have by your first sentence, it was obvious by 19 that Lanthir was probably town. Yet you voted him anyway.

These two posts seem to indicate one thing in the first post, and then you backtrack three posts later. Either you are scumhunting Fruc through his meta, or you are not. Which is it?

Thanks xis I'll check it out.

Pssshht. Yeah right, do you honestly think I have the time to read that whole list? I am interested in checking out that perfect game though. They are rare and hard to come by.

unvote, vote Xis

So, just so we're aware, why do we want to lynch someone before they even confirm?

No indication your read the games Xis posted, and by post 34 indication, you weren't going to. Yet, you're voting Xis because he wants to lynch Furc for all of the reasons he posted.

Yeah. I have been reading.
"If Mafia was a vote for president, I would win everytime."-Furcolow
If he's this easy to catch as scum, what are you so afraid of? I haven't been reading his town games yet but if he's as easy to read as some people suggest, I have no problem giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Not sure what you have been reading, your quote is contextless.
But, you seem to indicate you've been reading his scum games, and have detected a discernible pattern that you will presumably, be able to identify him as scum once he starts posting. Let's see if that has happened yet.

Or the very least, the benefit of posting.

Yates has also not posted. Why no defense of him?

@Sotty I just mentioned it offhand and I did in fact look into his playstyle. He's nowhere near as bad as some players on site. Look into Buldermar. That's a policy Lynch!

So you've looked into more Furc games? So far, it seemed it was just scum games(53). Now, you are saying you looked at his town games. So, once he posts you'll have a Furc read.

But, you've given nothing yet, even once he has posted. Nor have you engaged him anymore to draw forth more playstyle from him by which you will "deduce his alignment".

All and all, easily making you the best person to vote.

[PeregrineV]

What are your thoughts on Xis? A Lynch before confirmation does nothing but potentially eliminate two townies. I can almost see his reasoning now that furcolow has made him first post. For that matter, what are your thoughts on Jarvis? Zhang has brought up some good points. It sucks that he didn't link or quote the posts but he's making the effort which is more than I can say for you.

I perfectly understand a players desire for a Furc policy lynch. That feeling doesn't really go away, but the better play is always to lynch Furc if he is scum and ignore him if he is town. Otherwise, Xis seems to be attempting to gain reads on other players.

Jarvis is doing something also. I'll see where his posts, questions, etc, take him and what he comes up with.

What points did Zang bring up that were good? What was good about them?

[PeregrineV]

Lots to read, and normally I enjoy that, but kind of have work stuff to do. I'll get back to it in the next few days.

[PeregrineV]

Hey look ... Yates

STILL

has time to chime in with random, pointless garbage yet doesn't have time to actually play the game ...

@Yates-Far be it from me to agree with MoI, but considering you came in at page 7, there are currently greater expectations than one-liners. Else you'll be lynched like in day2 of Dragon Ball Z mafia.

[PeregrineV]

@Yates-Far be it from me to agree with MoI, but considering you came in at page 7, there are currently greater expectations than one-liners. Else you'll be lynched like in day2 of Dragon Ball Z mafia.

If you people had listened to me he would have been lynched Day 1 ....

@Peregrine

- your thoughts on ThAd and his alignment?

No talking about games that are ended that we lost.

re:ThAd- not sure. Originally town, since his playstyle seems distinguishable from this, but I'm pretty sure there are 2-3 wall cases against him. I haven't read nor evaluated them yet.

[PeregrineV]

@Yates-Far be it from me to agree with MoI, but considering you came in at page 7, there are currently greater expectations than one-liners.

This game is a crap show right now. Your contribution to this game has been what, exactly? Why aren't you bringing content and awesome cases? Is it because it's too loud in here and you don't have enough info to play Kindergarten Cop?

Alrighty then. Welcome to my world.

Got some town reads, gave reasons why I think Ree is scummy. That's pretty much it so far.

[PeregrineV]

See this is exactly why I am on you in EVERY game we have together …

What are you waiting for in regards to actually reading and evaluating the cases? An engraved invitation?

I enjoy the back and forth, since I think it gets me a better read on you. However, it takes time to read walls if you want a real response. Work stuff means wall games have to wait.

If you don't want to wait, then if your case is "ThAd doesn't say that as town", then it's pretty weak.

[PeregrineV]

Today is wall reading and fact checking day.

[PeregrineV]

@PeregrineV

: Is your Mr_Ree opinion unchanged?

Pretty much. He's an unknown to me, so I didn't use meta, and the stuff I posted years ago still stands as why I think he's scum.

[PeregrineV]

Town for now:
The Fonz
MagnaofIllusion
ThAdmiral
Yates
Xisiqomelir
Jarvis
Zang

Want to lynch: Furc

Scum: Mr_Ree

Null/squnity-eyed:LynchMe, Sotty, Amrun

[PeregrineV]

@Fonz- curious how you came up with all of that from 7

Peregrine- Can you explain what you figured out from your "wall reading and fact checking day"?

That I don't think ThAd is scum this game, that MoI is probably town this game, and Xis has to be an alt, because his 119 has too much detail for any type of word search.

Can you also explain your reads?

Town for now:

Seem to be engaging in their normal style of scumhunting

The Fonz
MagnaofIllusion
ThAdmiral
Zang
Yates

Seem to be scumhunting, making cases, etc.

Xisiqomelir
Jarvis

Posting deficiency, lack of town-meta claim, lack of content

Want to lynch: Furc

Because everyone else is more town:

Scum: Mr_Ree

I feel like they are latching on to existing arguments without expanding on those arguments nor offering rebuttals to them.
One I originally had a stronger town-read on but their replacement has diminished that, making me feel as if me early read was probably off, but we'll see.

Null/squnity-eyed: LynchMe, Sotty, Amrun

Very first post, he shows support for the furc wagon while not getting on it. Instead he votes Lanthir and asks Peregrine if he picked right. Right away, ties to PV

So one of four things happened here:
town-Jarvis interacting/reaction testing with Town-Peregrine
scum-Jarvis buddying up to town-Peregrine
town-Jarvis reaction testing scum-Peregrine
scum-Jarvis creating a connection with scum-Peregrine

Since I know my own PM, I know it's one of the first two. But you never mentioned my reaction, nor his reaction to my reaction. So your looking at a third of the equation and trying to attribute something without mentioning the rest.

[PeregrineV]

Day 1 Vote Count 5

THAdmiral 4 - MOI,Don't Lynch Me,Xisiqomelir,

Sotty

,
Jarvis 3 - Mr_Ree,Amrun,Yates
Mr_Ree 3 - PereV,furcolow,Jarvis
Jarvis 2 - Zang,The Fonz
xisiqomilir 1 - ThAdmiral

I need to get re-engaged in this game. This is basically a reminder to do so. After work I am going to try and read though the whole Javis v Zang exchange because I feel like it has passed me by. If I can get situated here, I think other things should fall into place.

Mr Ree is also an excellent vote at this stage.

A combination of your constant refusal to really address this and the fact Fonz saw fit to defend you and because MoI asked so nicely. Plus I really liked post 103.

@ThAd: Is MOI scum? Why or why not? You haven't actually talked about anything other than the attacks on you for several pages. I have no idea what your reads are at this point.

Ding ding ding …

This is a big part of the reason my vote is still on him.

In 120, your supsicion of Fonz was one of your reasons for voting ThAd. In 310, Fon'z suspcion of ThAd was one of the reasons your voting ThAd.

Tell me why this is

NOT

scummy.

[PeregrineV]

Just so I can read it and know who said what.

Right, so I’ve read all the ThAd games MOI linked, except the scum one ‘cause I don’t care.
The Castle Bravo situation… MOI described this as:

It’s a one-liner where ThAd tells Castle Bravo (a GreyICE alt) he is trying way too hard. He does eventually vote for him but no further posts indicating this a scum-tell are to be had. CastleBravo was a Town Vengeful in this game.

Looking at this closely ThAd accuses him of trying too hard, then later votes him without saying anything additional about CB in the time between. It seems clear to me, therefore, ThAd IS voting Castle Bravo for ‘Trying too hard.’ This to me is evidence enough that ThAd uses the tell. He then returns to the CB vote the following day, with no additional justification. MOI makes it sound like ThAd just happened to vote Castle Bravo later and there’s no obvious link between the accusation and the vote, and I think this is wrong. One CLEARLY follows from the other. MOI will no doubt counter that it didn’t work, but I don’t think ‘Use it as town and it work’ is a reasonable burden of proof to apply. People do believe in scumtells that don’t work. If he believed in it at the time of TV Mafia, and I think the evidence shows he did since he was town, then it’s perfectly reasonable to think that he believes it now.
Not only that, but in the same game, I attack ThAd in a similar manner to how MOI is attacking him here (He says townies labelling their vote as RVS is common, I say I’ve never seen it) he’s like… oh, it’s common take my word for it. This is kinda similar to his reaction here, only without the hatred. He asks me to take it on trust. That said, in Paranoia he’s challenged to prove that he’s caught scum or confirmed town solely on meta, and he provides an example straight away (Furc in Cold War). (Also in WWE ThAd attacks someone else in pretty much exactly the manner MOI is attacking him here, which is probably not relevant to anything apart from making ThAd look douchey).
In Cold War… ThAd as town also defends Furcolow straight out of the gate. That’s not unusual.
Reading through all these ISOs suggests to me that ThAd very frequently makes comments as town that I would normally consider to be buddying up. So I don’t think that tell applies here either.
So in conclusion, I’ve finally made a decision on ThAd, and it’s that MOI’s case is not at all valid. (This doesn’t completely clear him, but I definitely don’t want to lynch him today).
-------------------------------------------------
This took two hours and I'm all Mafia'd out, so don't expect any more posts today.

[PeregrineV]

Peregrine is either dumb (I know that's not the case as he's normally sucking up to me), or grasping at straws

What straws would that be?

[PeregrineV]

@Peregrine: you still haven't commented on how the first point in your case against me was fail. You said I should have had a town read on Lanthir by post 19 (My semi random vote, chosen mainly because Lanthir was the first in the game to call someone a Moron.) Yet you didn't make up your mind about him until post 46. So tell me, exactly how was I supposed to get a read on him when you couldn't get a read on him yourself?

My town read came from 14, 16, 17, 19, and 35/39 gave it the final push. Your first post came after 14-16-17-19.

And you didn't give a reason for your semi-random vote. If you would have said "For calling someone a Moron" then that would be one thing. Instead your post indicated you read the game, disagreed with Furc wagon, will read more about Furc, and thought Lanthir was scum (because of all that you read). It looks like you were testing momentum.

[PeregrineV]

You guys do know that Jarvis is scum right?

-NC

:sigh: Why is Jarvis scum? Do it MoI style with posts and such, please.

[PeregrineV]

You guys do know that Jarvis is scum right?

-NC

:sigh: Why is Jarvis scum? Do it MoI style with posts and such, please.

Post a case on Jarvis so I can defend my scumbuddy. There, I translated your scumspeak. Besides I have no time.

As long as your not just jumping from wagon to wagon without reason....

Oh wait, my bad, you are.

[PeregrineV]

Vote: Mr_Ree

Although I'll have to go back and look at now-town Sotty, Jarvis was a crap lynch yesterday. Should have been Mr_Ree easy.

[PeregrineV]

Ree-433- get some Tabasco.
Also, read 327. Sotty is town, and Zang now gets squinty-eyes (I find that day1 town lynch is led by scum often enough that I usually re-read them) for his spot on the Jarvis wagon.
In regards to 360, what information did you get from Jarvis lynch. You know, beyond his alignment.

@ThAd-435- see above. But I'm also only at 435.

@MoI- Considering your title, why do you think Sotty was killed and not you?

Re: Sotty kill- it was either because of her reads, they thought she was a PR, or they played with her before and feared her skills.

@Zang-449- You seem to have a much higher opinion of MrRee posts/content than many other people. If you haven't explained it somewhere in the next page(19), please do.
re:Jarvis- no votes on his, no suspicion of him, and said he was probably town in 327.
As an exercise in what I mean, ISO Jarvis, ISO MrRee. Jarvis is town, so compare his posts/content to MrRee.

I don’t really feel any compulsion to explain why my read on DLM is Town since you are my top scum suspect. But his reads being similar to mine Day 1 probably can be derived pretty easily by the average bear (or anyone smarter than him).

I understand and somewhat agree about reads. However, what reasons did DLM give for his reads day1?

Also MoI-451- Do you take anything away from the fact the your scum-ThAd wagon was diminished by the DLM move in vc6 and/or the Xis move in dc7? In your reads, they moved from a scum-ThAd wagon onto a town-Jarvis wagon.

@Amrun- start with basics for now. Who are your top townreads and top scumreads.

Current Fonz/MoI argument about the

strength of Sotty's scumreads

is fairly pointless; you both admit she had them for various players. Consider a binary solution, and go from there.

[PeregrineV]

@Zang-449- You seem to have a much higher opinion of MrRee posts/content than many other people. If you haven't explained it somewhere in the next page(19), please do.

I don't have a very high opinion of Mr_Ree, I just believe that he has been trying to post content in the last few pages and that his alignment should be judged based off of the content that he has provided rather than his lack of content earlier in the game.

You are referring to this?

Phoneposting so I'm going to make this quick.

On Jarvis's wagon, Amrun probably has the worst vote. I'm curious how the reading went. She came in, re-read the game, voted and then went AWOL. I understand her recent difficulties so I'm willing to give her a chance for now.

On my wagon, Peregrine's vote was seriously lacking. It looks like he coasted for most of day 1 after voting me. I can somewhat understand his second reason even though it's BS. I find the Lanthir vote reason for voting me to be stupid. I can't believe he held on to it until that point. He may be posting but he's posting fluff. He hasn't explained anything and I really don't see any scumhunting since his vote on me.

vote Peregrine

I'll expand on this more later today.

Could you elaborate on the night targets thing?

Lol. I didn't realize you were referring to night kills, let alone targets I would have had. I haven't got a scum role yet on Mafiascum but you're probably right, if I was scum, The Fonz would be target numero uno.

@Thad, what are your thoughts on Peregrine? That slot has been bugging the shit out of me all game. If he's not scum I'll eat my hat.

@Fonz: Thad has a pretty good point. If anything, a Sotty kill points more towards DLM but it's Wifomy as hell. Considering DLM is one of your scum reads, I'm surprised you didn't vote there. That case certainly suited them better.

@Peregrine: You've had the same tunnel vision vote for a full day phase. You must have a solid case by now, let's hear it. Who else do you think is scummy? If I flipped town, who would you vote for?

So, if you are totally discounting his day1 contribution, what has MrRee contributed in the above 3 posts?

re:Jarvis- no votes on his, no suspicion of him, and said he was probably town in 327.

Saying that you though he was probably town is not explaning why you thought that.

It was obvious that Jarvis was a rather common scum suspect so why didn't you try and dissuade the town from lynching him if you thought that he was town?

I did explain why- he was scumhunting- posting and responding and interacting. I don't know how much meta he has, but go look at town-Jarvis.

And thinking he was town and knowing he was town are two different things. If I was mason or had an innocent or strong evidence of Jarvis-town, then I would have said so and pushed that position.

As an exercise in what I mean, ISO Jarvis, ISO MrRee. Jarvis is town, so compare his posts/content to MrRee.

I'm not sure what you are trying to show me.[/quote]

I want you to look at Jarvis ISO for his content. You know he is town. Now look at 234, your case for why he was scum.
Now ISO MrRee. Does any of the non-spefici reasons for Jarvis apply to MrRee?

Pedit: the dentist awaits to inflict pain on me in exchange for my money, so will have to read later.

[PeregrineV]

It seems to have been happening a lot. You didn't come to any conclusions after asking people on the wagon questions, you didn't come to any conclusions when you asked zang to list jarvis' 5 flip-flops on the furc wagon in 81, you didn't come to any conclusions after asking yates to give his reads in 165, you didn't come to any conclusions after asking yates a series of questions from 205-209, you didn't follow up on any of the questions that I answered for you in 256.
You have a history in this game of asking a lot of questions, but coming to hardly any conclusions. Almost as if you don't care what the answers are.
This is the most damning aspect of my case against you, and if you are to convince me you are not scum, you will have to explain this behaviour.

@DLM

– Who is scum? I’d think a hydra could manage to get more actual opinions in the thread today.

You are both saying the same thing, and it's activity that is a classic scumtell.

Vote: DLM

[PeregrineV]

EBWOP:

It seems to have been happening a lot. You didn't come to any conclusions after asking people on the wagon questions, you didn't come to any conclusions when you asked zang to list jarvis' 5 flip-flops on the furc wagon in 81, you didn't come to any conclusions after asking yates to give his reads in 165, you didn't come to any conclusions after asking yates a series of questions from 205-209, you didn't follow up on any of the questions that I answered for you in 256.
You have a history in this game of asking a lot of questions, but coming to hardly any conclusions. Almost as if you don't care what the answers are.
This is the most damning aspect of my case against you, and if you are to convince me you are not scum, you will have to explain this behaviour.

@DLM

– Who is scum? I’d think a hydra could manage to get more actual opinions in the thread today.

You are both saying the same thing, and it's activity that is a classic scumtell.

Vote: DLM

Vote: DLM

[PeregrineV]

Peregrine wrote:
@MoI- Considering your title, why do you think Sotty was killed and not you?


Who knows? Why are you asking me to speculate on why scum killed Sotty when you list the many possible reasons in your next line (reads / PR Hunting / obv Town / good player)? Add in even more speculation (scum was worried I was more likely to draw protection) and it is a recipie to distract from in thread scum-hunting IMO.

Peregrine wrote:
Also MoI-451- Do you take anything away from the fact the your scum-ThAd wagon was diminished by the DLM move in vc6 and/or the Xis move in dc7? In your reads, they moved from a scum-ThAd wagon onto a town-Jarvis wagon.


I don’t take anything away at this stage since ThAd is still breathing and neither are at the top of my suspects list. He’s my top scum suspect but I fully acknowledge I might be wrong. Did you see something in their posts that says to you “bussed ThAd until it looked like the coast was clear” you want me to examine?

No, it's just based on the direction of your questioning you have The Fonz/ThaD/Amrun as the scum team. Is this an accurate representation of your suspicions?

[PeregrineV]

Vote: Mr_Ree

Although I'll have to go back and look at now-town Sotty, Jarvis was a crap lynch yesterday. Should have been Mr_Ree easy.

Why was Jarvis's lynch crap? If you believed as much why not defend him? Is it because he asked for your approval on an RVS vote? I should have been voting you yesterday. You rode my vote to get through the day and now you're hoping to do the same.[/quote]

This was your reason for voting Jarvis.

We stand to gain the most information from Jarvis so my vote goes there. Twice this game he has stated that he would Lynch players regardless of alignment simply for distaste of the player. As new arguments come up I'm sure you'll develop a distaste towards more players.

vote Jarvis

You became #2 on his wagon, and now, day2, when questioned about your "information", you said

I do have a better feeling about Thad. It was always more about the wagon than the lynch though. It helped me pick out Amrun as my runner up suspect. Wagons tend to give me the clearest information.

.
To see a real reason to vote someone, read 490.

pedit: MoI, OK I'll take a look at it. Responding to scum-Ree right now, who is currently reading DLM as "null"

[PeregrineV]

You never actually pointed out what we are supposed to see from looking at both ISO's. My biggest problem with you is your inability to form a case, despite your many games. I know you are not new. Your case just seems so lackluster and you basically used it to coast the entire first day. It even came very close to looking like you forgot what your case actually was when you were questioned about it and you said your previous reasons still stood. I responded to those reasons, you never really responded to me.

I've found that pretty formatting or logic or ALLCAPRLOCKRAGE don't sell a case very well. I've done them all, depending on my mood, but not sure what you're looking for. My cases evolve as I feel/deduce/figure them out.

The thing with Jarvis is he is confirmed town, and I felt like his posts were scumhunting when he was alive, and you did not. This brought us into direct conflict, especially with my additional scumread on you.

Let's do this. Take playerlist. Scumreads/townreads and why. People will question, you will clarify/respond.

[PeregrineV]

The thing with Jarvis is he is confirmed town, and I felt like his posts were scumhunting when he was alive, and you did not.

Please link / quote the posts you thought demonstrated Jarvis was scum-hunting.

Also please link / quote the posts from yesterday where you offered that opinion publicly and pushed against the Jarvis lynch in a Pro-active manner.

Thanks!

You get 327 and 329. And I don;t have to prove he was town because..he was town.

[PeregrineV]

The thing with Jarvis is he is confirmed town, and I felt like his posts were scumhunting when he was alive, and you did not.

Please link / quote the posts you thought demonstrated Jarvis was scum-hunting.

Also please link / quote the posts from yesterday where you offered that opinion publicly and pushed against the Jarvis lynch in a Pro-active manner.

Thanks!

74
101
382

I mentioned this in 349

@Fonz- curious how you came up with all of that from 7

Peregrine- Can you explain what you figured out from your "wall reading and fact checking day"?

That I don't think ThAd is scum this game, that MoI is probably town this game, and Xis has to be an alt, because his 119 has too much detail for any type of word search.

Can you also explain your reads?

Town for now:

Seem to be engaging in their normal style of scumhunting

The Fonz
MagnaofIllusion
ThAdmiral
Zang
Yates

Seem to be scumhunting, making cases, etc.

Xisiqomelir
Jarvis

Posting deficiency, lack of town-meta claim, lack of content

Want to lynch: Furc

Because everyone else is more town:

Scum: Mr_Ree

I feel like they are latching on to existing arguments without expanding on those arguments nor offering rebuttals to them.
One I originally had a stronger town-read on but their replacement has diminished that, making me feel as if me early read was probably off, but we'll see.

Null/squnity-eyed: LynchMe, Sotty, Amrun

Very first post, he shows support for the furc wagon while not getting on it. Instead he votes Lanthir and asks Peregrine if he picked right. Right away, ties to PV

So one of four things happened here:
town-Jarvis interacting/reaction testing with Town-Peregrine
scum-Jarvis buddying up to town-Peregrine
town-Jarvis reaction testing scum-Peregrine
scum-Jarvis creating a connection with scum-Peregrine

Since I know my own PM, I know it's one of the first two. But you never mentioned my reaction, nor his reaction to my reaction. So your looking at a third of the equation and trying to attribute something without mentioning the rest.

[PeregrineV]

So, if you are totally discounting his day1 contribution, what has MrRee contributed in the above 3 posts?

I am not totally discounting his day 1 contribution and have never said that I would. I never even said that I would be discounting any of his contributions. I said that I think he should be judged based on what content he has provided rather than the amount of content. This means the content he has provided now and earlier in the game.

As for the posts you qouted, Post 425 is an attempt by him at scumhunting although I do think it is scummy that he never really expanded on his voted on you as he promised. Post 428 is him asking for clarification on something that he didn't understand. In post 433, he provides his opinion on the night kill and asks relevant questions.

I did explain why- he was scumhunting- posting and responding and interacting. I don't know how much meta he has, but go look at town-Jarvis.

And thinking he was town and knowing he was town are two different things. If I was mason or had an innocent or strong evidence of Jarvis-town, then I would have said so and pushed that position.

How was he scumhunting yesterday and if he was then why didn't you point it out then?

If posting, responding and interacting is a town tell then how do you not think that every player in this game is town?

If you did not have strong evidence that Jarvis was town then why in post 420 do you say that it was "a crap lynch"?

I pointed it out generically when I gave my reads and the reasons behind them. There appeared to be no questions then about my Zang townread, nor the reason for it.
You do notice I have many town reads at that point (7). But this question implies that I should have had a townread on Furc, DontLynchMe, Sotty, and Amrun. Why would I have townreads on them?

Because it was, and there were at least 5 other people that should have been lynched before him.

I want you to look at Jarvis ISO for his content. You know he is town. Now look at 234, your case for why he was scum.
Now ISO MrRee. Does any of the non-spefici reasons for Jarvis apply to MrRee?

I still don't know what you are trying to show me.

Mr_Ree never tried to push a wagon in RVS while voting for someone else.
He never tried to blame his actions on someonw else.
He never sheeped someone elses case only to quickly discard it later.
He never encouraged a policy lynch while at the same time saying that he wan't a fan of them.
He never voted anyone without providing reasoning behind it.
He never changed his opinion on a player several times over a relatively quick period of time.
As far as I can tell based off of his Iso, he never completely ignored a case against him.
He never tried to discredit a case against him by insulting it.

This looks like a list of reasons why Mr_Ree is town. But since we know town has done all of the above, does the fact MrRee has done none of that mean he is scum?

I get the feeling that we are thinking along the same lines. Why DLM over Peregrine or Amrun? I'm in focus mode on Peregrine so I'm having trouble looking past it.

Off of the top of my head, I can't think of anything that DLM has contributed to the game, I think that he was the person most likely to be scum on the Jarvis wagon, ThAd makes a very valid point when he says that DLM has just been posting questions to make himself seem to be contributing but without ever drawing any conclusions from them and DLM was my first thought when I saw that Sotty had been killed.

You were able to look at MrRee and say "I said that I think he should be judged based on what content he has provided rather than the amount of content. This means the content he has provided now and earlier in the game." does this not apply the DLM? What does your re-read of his day1 play and his day2 play tell you?

I'm starting to suspect Peregrine just as much as DLM recently though.

Of course. This only makes sense.

Your case isn't valid because my role PM says town.

I disagree with this in general. There are some people who play absolutely horrible and even thought they may be town, the case on them is completely justified.

what the hell is a strawman arguement?

A strawman argument is when you attack a single aspect of an argument and use it to descredit the whole thing.

2. Has he ever used it as scum? If you can’t show that this point amounts to “proving a negative” and isn’t valid.

Isn't this also true for your case against ThAd's too helpful tell?

7. We both have clear positions. I think it points far and away more to ThAd than Ree personally.

In post 485 though, you say that "if Sotty’s death points to anyone it is DLM given the fact Sotty voted him and not Ree".

I've found that pretty formatting or logic or ALLCAPRLOCKRAGE don't sell a case very well. I've done them all, depending on my mood, but not sure what you're looking for. My cases evolve as I feel/deduce/figure them out.

What do you mean when you say that logic doesn't sell a case very well?

That logic doesn't sell a case very well. I've made logical cases for why a player is scum before, and been dead wrong. I've done the same for why a player is town, and been dead wrong.

You get 327 and 329. And I don't have to prove he was town because..he was town.

I'm not sure what post 329 has to do with something and Listing Jarvis in a list of players who you though were town is not considered posting how you thought Jarvis was scumhunting and is not considered pushing against the Jarvis lynch.

Yeah, I remmeber you saying that day1 when I posted that. Here was your comment on that post.

[PeregrineV]

Day 2 Vote Count 3

Amrun 2 - Xisiqomelir,Yates
PereV 3 - Mr_Ree, furcolow, Zang
Mr_Ree 2 - The Fonz,Amrun,
Don't Lynch Me 2 - ThAdmiral,PeregrineV

Not Voting

Don't Lynch Me
MagnaofIllusion

@PeregrineV

: Analyze your wagon, please. If it's going to come down to you vs DLM today I'll need to read Sotty over a few more times.

The wagon of OMGUS, P.L. Furc, and Zang?
I think I've played 2 games with Zang that I can recall. In both, I was scum, he was town. Based on his play then and now, it's very similar, leading me to the initial conclusion he's town. However, I never before actually had to determine his alignment, which is why there will be a bit more back and forth before I finalize that.

pedit: @MoI-Yes, but need to read and understand Zang.

[PeregrineV]

1. Show what you found to be Jarvis scum-hunting.
2. Show you taking a stand that argued against a Jarvis lynch.

So can you not do either?

And I’m not sure if you are purposefully straw-manning with “I don’t have to prove Jarvis was Town” line or just terrible but the point is the same –

I didn’t ask you to do that. I asked you to show posts from Day 1 that were consistent with your claims. Because I think you can be scum.

1. I did this above with examples.
2.
Listing him as a townread.
Listing why he was a townread.
Lack of voting him or expressing suspcion of him.
363- Which was combination annoyance at crap-vote on Jarvis and trying to determine if the hydra is scum or 2 dumb people.

And as I've stated before, unless my townreads are uber-strong, I spend more time trying to find scum than defending town.

I also mentioned 6 other players besides Jarvis who I thought were town for the same reason. I'm guessing you disagree on ThAd, but does that mean you agree with the rest?

[PeregrineV]

@Yates- Talk about me, Zang, DLM and MrRee.

[PeregrineV]

Linking to posts made by Jarvis does not prove that he was scumhunting. Also, you didn't think that a gap of 300 posts between posts of his which you thought demonstrated scumhunting was odd?

His alignment proves he was.
Don't care about post count, or time between posts. That depends on time available.
I mostly showed you three where his interactions were not 1v1.

[PeregrineV]

Also, you have still failed so far to show were you "pushed against the Jarvis lynch in a Pro-active manner." Casually listing Jarvis in a list of town reads without explaining the read is not doing this.

And you'll never find it, because unless I have a reason, I will never push against a lynch in a pro-active manner.

Yes, you did say that Jarvis was scumhunting if that is what you are refering to but that doesn't matter. I could easily call furc town because I see scumhunting in his posts but that does not mean that it was true. You provided absolutely no evidence to try and prove what you claimed. It's not just Jarvis either you should provide reasoning for all of your reads regardless of who they are.

So you think I need to prove to you that I think Jarvis was scumhunting?
And that if my idea of scumhunting is different from yours (which it is), I need to prove that they were doing what

you

consider scumhunting?

No and no.

[PeregrineV]

That is exactly my point. You said that Jarvis was town because "he was scumhunting- posting and responding and interacting." If you think that is true then why don't you think that everybody is town? Whether it's furc, DLM or MrRee, they are all "posting and responding and interacting."

I asked you to compare the ISOs of Jarvis, flipped town, and MrRee, my suspect from the start of day.
You said I'm not sure what you are trying to show me.
So now you are saying that you see the same level and effort from furc, DLM, and MrRee as Jarvis, ThAd, Fonz, and MoI?

I do not see them doing it to the same degree as my townreads, especially DLM and furc.

If you don't see it, then you're protecting someone, because there is a VAST difference.

[PeregrineV]

Also, you have not yet addressed any of my questions to you from the reread.

You've already drawn conclusions, so what's the point of the questions?

And of the ones I haven't answered, ThAd yesterday was better than ThAd today. While I enjoy a good MoI fight, at some point you have to continue playing the game anyway. I'd like to hear ThAd on other players, not just MoI.

I think DLM is scum because of yesterday's vote on Jarvis, and the non-contributory nature of the slot manned by 2 players. Through in Sotty's death, and his scum-chance really skyrockets.

MrRee was doing fine on his own at refining my read on him. Your insistence that he is/was providing content has actually hurt any positive gains he may have been making.

[PeregrineV]

Can someone explain 311? The flavor is Rolls, ring, bird? Or actually explain the flavor at all?

Slang for female breasts.

[PeregrineV]

I've always had better luck finding scum on my own wagon and Peregrine piqued my interest on day 1.

Have any games to support this? I don’t recall this from my experiences with Town you.

Fixed that for you.

[PeregrineV]

Still like MoI. Still like DLM. Still like Fonz.
Peregrine can be town for now.
ThAd and Yates are obvious scum and will get a separate case when I have time.
Lesser scumreads on Xis, Mr_Ree
Furc is bleh. Wouldn't be sad to see him gone.

Look forward to these, as I disagree on a few.

[PeregrineV]

And of the ones I haven't answered, ThAd yesterday was better than ThAd today. While I enjoy a good MoI fight, at some point you have to continue playing the game anyway. I'd like to hear ThAd on other players, not just MoI.

Other players like ree, dlm and amrun's slot (now orange)?

Sure, and throw in a Zang and Xis too.

[PeregrineV]

Traveling for the weekend, and off Monday. May get something in but more will have to come Tuesday.

[PeregrineV]

Back on page 24, with some walls to go.

How does AgentOrange have 4 votes?
Is Mr_Ree really Charismatic, or is that a VC error?

[PeregrineV]

1. You were voting for me just to have your vote on a perceived

easy lynch

that you had no intention of pushing on your own.
2. You were trying to distance yourself from the Jarvis lynch while soft pushing it through by not defending him.
You weren't voting me because I was voting your town read.

It's all about the words.

1. Congratulations! You've been promoted from Hard Lynch to Easy Lynch. Hope you get a pay raise.

2. So, if you vote someone, you are soft pushing every other player by NOT voting them? And if you don't defend someone, then you are distancing yourself from them?
Just so I get it.


And you can promote yourself by explaining how Jarvis was MORE SCUMMY than you.
Or, if you are town, explain why he sprang up as a counterwagon to you.
Or, why he wasn't a counterwagon to you.

Day 1 Vote Count 5

Jarvis

5 - Zang,The Fonz,Mr_Ree,Amrun,Yates
THAdmiral 4 - MOI,Don't Lynch Me,Xisiqomelir,

Sotty

,
Mr_Ree 3 - PereV,furcolow,

Jarvis

xisiqomilir 1 - ThAdmiral,

Not Voting

Day 1 Vote Count 6

Jarvis

5 - Zang,Mr_Ree,Amrun,Yates,Don't Lynch Me
Mr_Ree 4 - PereV,furcolow,

Jarvis

,The Fonz
THAdmiral 3 - MOI,Xisiqomelir,

Sotty

,

Not Voting

ThAdmiral

Day 1 Vote Count 7

Jarvis

6 - Zang,Mr_Ree,Amrun,Yates,Don't Lynch Me,Xisiqomelir,
Mr_Ree 4 - PereV,furcolow,

Jarvis

,The Fonz
DontLynchMe 2 -

Sotty

,ThAdmiral
THAdmiral 1 - MOI,

Not Voting

[PeregrineV]

I like the peregrine case. Count me in as a "happy to lynch him" member.

Good, maybe you can sum it up for me then. Otherwise, it sounds like Mr_Ree's case is that I voted him and think he's scum.

[PeregrineV]

@Whoever asked- Yes, Amrun would have been playing to her scum meta had she lurked and posted. She wasn't posting at all, and it wasn't just this game. For that reason, her entire stint was null.

Agree with Fonz about Furc, seems his scum play.

Vote: Furc

[PeregrineV]

@ peregrine: ree's case against you is best summarised by this fragment:

By riding my vote through the day, you managed to avoid the Thad wagon, the Xis wagon, and the Jarvis wagon. All in all, you were not at all helpful in day 1. You failed to push or defend anyone. Your read list listed everyone you have played before as town, actually, it listed pretty much everyone as town.

Additionally to this:
- your reasoning for voting ree is and was crap (therefore not justifying the level of tunneling)
- aside from avoiding the thad, xis and jarvis wagons you hardly discussed these wagons at all. Yet today you state that the jarvis was a "crap lynch" (420). Note this was after you didn't even have jarvis in your "town" pile, rather in your "seem to be scumhunting, making cases, etc." pile which is more null than anything else (as of your most recent list post at the time, in 349).

Ree portion:
So I'm scummy for not voting you, Xis, or Jarvis day 1?
And helpful is relative, so if that is put into context I can agree or disagree with some sort of rationale.
I pushed MrRee, and if I pushed anyone else, I'll have to go look. I think only DLM or Sotty made my spideysense go off.
Arguing that part of his case on me is that I "defended no one" is kind of senseless.
Actually, my list is pretty exact (327, 349). Just because you disagree with it doesn't mean you can misrep what it says.

ThAd portion:
My day1 reason for voting Ree was not crap, although it was all day1 based.
And seeing how you reached the same conclusion, it's fascinating how you think this adds any value.

Overall there is some evidence to suggest a scum mindset. I would vote him, but I hope to find a better candidate.

Jarvis was in the town pile (327). 349 was an explanation of the reads given in 327.
So you saying my town reads are null reads means YOU think my townreads are nullreads, not that I do.

So, as far as cases go, unless you have something better, it gets a 1/5.

[PeregrineV]

@Whoever asked- Yes, Amrun would have been playing to her scum meta had she lurked and posted. She wasn't posting at all, and it wasn't just this game. For that reason, her entire stint was null.

Agree with Fonz about Furc, seems his scum play.

Vote: Furc

Evidence time!

Game day	Players alive	Total posts	Furcolow posts	Relative frequency	Alignment
Stars Aligned III D1	28	1701	258	4.25	TOWN
The Children of Húrin Mafia D1	22	832	123	3.25	SELF
Cold War Mafia D1	24	1176	130	2.65	TOWN
Ohne Mafia D1	12	828	107	1.55	SCUM
Cookie Thief Mafia D1	12	444	53	1.43	TOWN
The Children of Húrin Mafia D2	20	568	30	1.06	SCUM
Mafia Holographica D1	12	654	32	0.59	SCUM

Furcolow currently has 26 posts out of 640 in a 13 player game.

[PeregrineV]

@Zang- not really in the mood for point-by-point wall dinging in terms of your case on me. If you want to sum it up, I'll argue it, like ThAd posted. Otherwise, feel free to vote me.

@ThAd- yes it is, however it is static information and not game specific.

[PeregrineV]

Vote: ThAd

@Agent- So you are going with JK as a blocker on Qis and not as protection?

[PeregrineV]

just blindly follow Moi? he's fucking lying because I'm vanilla town.

whatever just lynch him when I flip town. please.

You know that this will happen if you do, so why are you not voting him, and providing your final reads list?

[PeregrineV]

@Agent- So you are going with JK as a blocker on Qis and not as protection?

Well I honestly thought I was going to die last night, so I figured going for a protection would be kind of pointless

This tells my why you picked your target, but not why you feel Qis was roleblocked as opposed to protected.

I'll check your ISO, but if you have more reasons why you think it it'd be cool to hear them.

Also, shouldn't we let Qis respond before lynching today?

[PeregrineV]

We can wait for Agent response, but OK with ThAd lynch moving forward.

Agent is either town and there is a scum RB, or Agent is scum RB-type. As MoI said, Jason games in the last 2 years have not had a framer role.

@Zang- Lots going on...where are you and your walls?

[PeregrineV]

I'm Simon's only other living girlfriend, Tara, VT.

[PeregrineV]

Just so no hammers are done in case MoI is somehow town.

FoS: MoI

MoI- Any links to where you faked a result, or are you just scum throwing yourself on some sort of grenade.

IOW- WTF?

[PeregrineV]

We should still get MoI's result from last night before we lynch him.

-KJ

Why would he have a result?

[PeregrineV]

Is that a serious question?

He's claimed cop. Real cops get real results. Fake cops need to fake results. Both are useful later in the game once we have MoI's flip.

-KJ

He claimed cop.
He claimed a guilty on ThAd.
ThAd flips town.
You ask MoI for last night results.

So, are you serious that MoI "claim his results before we lynch him"?

[PeregrineV]

Yes. What's wrong with it?

-KJ

He claimed ThAd was scum from his investigation. ThAd flipped town.

If what way will any results MoI give be useful?

[PeregrineV]

The issue is that if the results were tampered with, there's every reason to expect the next set of results to be likely to have been tampered with, too. The only way I can foresee them being of any use is if he 'gets an innocent,' then if MOI flips town and we are subsequently able to lynch a scum framer, we would know the innocent is genuine. The only other role-based explanation for MOI-town getting a guilty on a town player would be some kind of redirection, and if there is a scum role out there redirecting night actions, then we can't trust MOI's results even if he flips town. I'm in the 'Can't hurt' camp, but the set of scenarios where it can help is very small indeed.

Agree with this, although I have less care for any results- I mostly want to know why MoI lied.

I do not think there is a redirection or framer role, although I could be wrong.

We had an additional kill last night. At the very least, I would like Yates to claim whether he was responsible for that. If not, that implies either an SK or an additional scumgroup (or that someone town was a vig and lied about it, I suppose, but I would hope no-one here is that moronic). It also implies that two killing groups combined for one kill over two nights, which is kinda weird. Looking at the first page, the new kill method for N3 is 'Sent to detention.' The 'wedgied and stuffed in locker' kill appears nights one and three.

Lying town vig, maybe.
Also likely is a poison mechanic, where scum delivered a kill n2 that did not take effect until n3. It's probably called something else, but a delayed-kill mechanic I think is more likely than SK.

[PeregrineV]

Makes some sense, but also raises further questions. Why did scum use a delayed mechanic when presumably they have a 'normal' kill available? And how does 'sent to detention' fit with delayed kill?

To create the impression that a protective role existed and succeeded when it did not, I guess.
As for the detention, that would be a flavor thing.

Either way, I don't believe in an SK.

[PeregrineV]

Makes some sense, but also raises further questions. Why did scum use a delayed mechanic when presumably they have a 'normal' kill available? And how does 'sent to detention' fit with delayed kill?

To create the impression that a protective role existed and succeeded when it did not, I guess.
As for the detention, that would be a flavor thing.

Either way, I don't believe in an SK.

[PeregrineV]

I'm back, and is truer than I thoguht.

[PeregrineV]

Whore's Knickers!!

Where is MoI?

@Agent- And........?

[PeregrineV]

Is anyone else even reading this game?

MoI haven't been onsite in 2 weeks. I consider that enough of an anomaly to allow one more day to let him explain himself. But otherwise, there really isn't an alternate lynch today.

[PeregrineV]

@Jason- Thanks for running this. Wasn't expecting the 2 scumteams, and thought for sure Agent was town and only his night choice would save the game after the vengeful kill.

[PeregrineV]

Town for now:

The Fonz

MagnaofIllusion
ThAdmiral
Yates
Xisiqomelir
Jarvis
Zang

Want to lynch:

Furc

Scum:

Mr_Ree

Null/squnity-eyed:LynchMe, Sotty,

Amrun

@TheFonz- I hope you'll understand from now on when I proclaim you fully town during a game and want to lynch you anyway.....