Mini 370: Reverse Mafia - Game Over!

[M4yhem]

Hi everybody!

Fos:CrashTextDummie

for being a slippery customer.

And nonrandom

Vote:M4yhem

because I'm awesome and protown!

We should probably get the power roles to claim, except for the doc, since it is usually to the towns advantage if the doc stays hidden. If we ressurect the cop today, that would probably be best because then they start investigating the first night. So today will probably be about working out who the real cop is. I believe sharing information will benefit the town since as long as we ressurect the right people, non of the confirmed innocents will die.

I am in favour of the idea that those wishing to be revived should claim. And since I'm not the cop, I guess I'm not the best choice for revival.

[M4yhem]

Chaotic_Diablo- Actually, the mod is saying 'I won't tell you' which is slightly different.

Crash- Good Choice. Also, do you believe claiming to be against the spirit of this game? What makes you think that? To answer your question, at the moment I am most concerned with the scum in limbo, for obvious reasons.

TheManHimself- I am not liking your claim. Roleblocker is a role often given to scum (although it looks like we can't take anything for granted in this game). Plus, something about you seems a little off. I will not be supporting your wagon at this time.

Yos- It's true that we won't be able to vote off scum, which makes the Vig a fairly useful role. The problem with vigs is that it's a role scum can easily fake, so we should be wary.

The most powerful roleblocker and doc in this game is probably the setup itself. As long as the scum are sleeping, they cannot hurt us. So I suggest that we scumhunt in the normal way, and then ban scummy people from ascendancy. At the moment I am slightly suspicious of Yos, for being supportive of the roleblocker and Vig, and subtly undermining the cop. Plus, he’s clearly smarter than me, which makes him very dangerous.

I agree that we should have no more claims for now, but I still think mass-claiming is a good idea. It forces the scum to decide quickly if they will claim a power role, which means they have to risk both that there will be no counterclaims and also that they can fake the role convincingly. IMO forcing scum to take risks is a good strategy.

[M4yhem]

Yos- Voting records will still be important. If we do revive scum then knowing who voted for them and knowing who subtly encouraged their ascension will be useful to us.
Also, no response at all to the fact I find you suspicious?
I accept your points about the mass claiming. Let’s drop that idea for now.
I would like to suggest that whoever is revived today has their opinions ignored tomorrow, to avoid a potential scum manipulating the town.

Themanhimself- Sorry, can’t clarify. It was just a feeling. If I had anything solid I’d be jumping all over you.

Yos- What exactly is the problem with trying to revive the power roles? Don’t forget the setup acts as a doc, as long as the scum are dead.

Al_kohaulec- It would help if you told me where exactly we disagree, for future reference. Also, remember that just because you agree with someone doesn’t mean they have the same role as you. Yossarian is a smooth talker, and more than capable of saying the right things to get himself elected.


Thoth- making sense does not equal town.

I am alarmed at the speed of the Yossarian bandwagon. I’m pretty sure not everyone has checked in yet. Let us wait until everyone has spoken at least once, please, before decided who to enervate.

unvote

And Crash- reasoning ftw.

[M4yhem]

Thoth- The thing is Yosarian can make sense and help the town with his posts just fine from where he is. We don’t need to revive him on those grounds.

Yos- You seem fairly certain that the scum will start killing. Are you just naturally pessimisstixc, or do you have insider knowledge. Again, no revived scum= no scum kills, which is why it’s important we take our time.

And you would be against the idea that we don’t listen to you once you’re alive, wouldn’t you, seeing as you’re the front runner. What I want to achieve through that is to avoid any living scum manipulating us into bringing in their buddies. Have you got a better idea on how to achieve that? Lurking scum in this setting would be much less of a threat then normal, I would have thought, since it seems like the most verbose people will be the ones getting revived. If you disagree, explain why.

Al_kohaulec- Does my idea give us a higher chance of reviving scum than normal? How so?

Crash- You’re lurking again. Don’t think that I won’t notice.

Twito- Yeah, I don’t see why just because we don’t know the setup we have to assume that any crazy combination is possible. I agree that if we had two cop claims we would treat both with caution.

I'm starting to wonder if he's intentionally giving the town bad stratagy advice,

Ditto. “Let’s ignore the voting record, townsfolk. It won’t tell us anything.”
And shrug; having bad ideas does not make me scum. It just means I have played fewer games/ thought less carefully about it/ am dumber than you.

IMO, there is too much speculation about the set-up of the game. What we really need to do is to talk about

how

we can find the right candidate to revive.

I agree with this completely. (Not the rest of your post though)
I still think we should look for scum in the normal way; see who defends who, who goes quiet when who is mentioned and so forth. At the moment, if voting to lynch, I would vote Yosarian. Yes, he’s very helpful, but that in itself can be a scumtell. I’m getting bad vibes from him. Anyone else?
On another note, we should try to work out who is town, from their reactions and so forth. Any suggestions?

Vote:TheManHimself

that "scum w/o good claims" are less likely to be revived

But this is true, surely? Unless the scum have safe claims, and even then we would be able to pick them apart.

My current preferred order: TheManHimself, Mehem, Twito, Lordy, MrCeaser, Crash.

And Al, if you really think I’m town, you should be in favour of reviving me.

Yos- Are you just a normal townie? If so, what makes you worth reviving over other normal townies, and over powerroles such as themanhimself? Sure, you can talk, but you can do that here; and I’m far more likely to listen to you if I’m not worrying all the time that you’re scum. So what have you got to offer us, eh?

[M4yhem]

Al_kohaulec:

Now this is obvious rolefishing right here.

It’s not rolefishing. Rolefishing is devious. That was a direct question.

Why players like Lordy and MrCeaser? They haven't posted once, there's nothing to tell their alignment one way or another, and they're 4th and 5th on your lists?

I figured that scum are more likely in this game to be vocal.

Are you serious? Did you really just say that you think that me "being helpful" is a scumtell? What, good guys aren't supposed to try to figure out what stratagy the town should follow in order to win?

Completely serious. Good scum will say obviously helpful and protown things, in order to get the towns confidence and avoid being lynched. Are you seriously claiming you’ve never used this strategy yourself in the past, as scum? Obviously the gg are supposed to figure out strategy, yes. That doesn’t mean every helpful player is good.

Fishing for my role is another scumtell. There is no way a pro-town person would want me to answer the question about "are you a normal townie".

Well I happen to know you’re 100% wrong here, but I guess I can’t expect you to take it on trust. Sigh, I guess I have to justfy myself now, don’t I?
I want more information about you. Simple as that. I find you almost impossible to read and every time you post I feel like I’m drowning in a sea of words. Plus, everyone is voting for you. That’s scary. This much consensus suggest the scum are happy with what’s happening.

I'm not sure what you're asking by "what else have you got to offer us".

You could make us promises, or explain what you intend to do with the power we are giving you. I’m not really sure. But you’ve been voting for yourself since you arrived. What make you think you are the best candidate for ascension?

If you don't think that I'm pro-town, or you don't think I'll make good decisions, then vote for someone else.

You lose points for observation. I already was, I am and I will be.

TheManHimself- If yellowbounder is lurking, how does that make him dangerous in this game?

Crash- I’m not sure if bandwaggoning is better or worse in this game. I’ll get back to you.

It's also unlikely I'll vote for Mayhem's revival ever.

Meh. Saying things that go against popular opinion does tend to make you unpopular. I’m not the best candidate for revival today anyway. So I’ll let this go for now.

The bits of you guy’s posts I haven’t quoted or responded to I either agree with or don’t care enough to argue about.

Now, scumhunting.
I currently have two theories on how the scum will be behaving:
1)Loud, in your face. A high risk-high reward strategy. They go all out to get themselves revived, make fake claims, etc. The risk is that people tend to notice louder players more. Only done by very stupid or bold scum.

Fos:TheManHimself, Yos

2)The waiting game: I can see more cunning devious scum supporting townies today, as an extension of the buddying up method, in the hope that once the townie they vote for is revived, that townie will then revive them out of gratitude.

Fos:Al_kohaulic

His last post gave me scummy vibes anyway. But my scumdar might be broken; the signal changes everyday.

Also, what the hell happened to caution? Some of our players haven’t even checked in yet, and Yos is already well on his way to being ‘born’.

Mod

please would you give us a votecount? Thank you.

And Yos, copy+paste your quote tags, please. You keep getting my name wrong, which irritates me. Thanks.

[M4yhem]

Yos- I assumed a scumtell was something scum did, so I guess we're quibbling about semantics really.

I suggest you start using that massive amount of brainpower to work out how scum would vote in this game. This is still a mafia game after all. We also need to work out how the townies will be voting. (Yes, I know how I vote but not everyone thinks like me, oddly enough.)

Your promise to be slow with your vote is interesting and I will be holding you to it.

While I agree with your endgame scenario regarding lurkers, I still think it's safe to ignore them for now, unlike in most other day one games. This setup rewards activity for both groups. I approve.

The biggest problem I see with this argument is you are saying I'm scum who is reviving townies to gain their trust, so that then they'll revive me. This points at Yos being town, and me being scum. However, this whole time you have been pointing to Yos as your most likely scum suspect. This contradicts itself. Please explain.

I never said I was 100% sure Yos was scum; I just wanted people to critically evaluate him. If you are scum, he could be your buddy, or a townie you want to impress. I am running through many possibiltys at the moment. Also, I reserve the right to change my mind, depending on the things people say. Getting locked into one train of thought is damaging to my scum-finding capabilities.

And you say that those players are town because they haven't checked in yet, because scum would want to be vocal in this game. Yes, they would, but it doesn't mean that lurkers aren't scum.

Everyone but me has the possibility of being scum. I just think that it is more likely that the lurkers are town. Noone is cleared until death. But we can still use probability to narrow down the scum to a few main suspects.

Chaotic_Diablo- What WIFOM? Seriously, I’m getting tired of that phrase.
Scum do act in certain predictable ways. That’s what the whole buissness of scumtells is about. They have goals they need to achieve and we know those goals, which means that we can make guesses as to how they will behave.

What’s the matter? Are you frightened that someone will notice that you fit the pattern I proposed?

Fos:Chaotic_Diablo

And what’s your alternative plan? Oh, I’m sorry, you didn’t make one, did you? NOT HELPFUL. What plausible evidence are you expecting anyway, in a game with no lynches and an unknown setup?

I don’t think I’m going to derail the Yosarian bandwagon, am I. So instead of sitting around whining about how you’ve got it all wrong and waiting for the prodees to show up, I’m going to

vote:Yosarian2

since this way I get to keep some control of what’s happening.

[M4yhem]

Oh joy. I can see I’ve been making a good impression.

Anyway, what we need to do now is revive me.

Vote:M4yhem

What would we want to do that for, I hear you cry?

Simple. If Yosairian is scum, you need someone up there who will be skeptical of the things he says. Someone who will watch him like a hawk. I was the first player to express suspicion agaist him, and I’ve been the loudest and most vocal speaker against him. You need me up there for safetys sake.

If me and Yos are both town, the fact that we don’t trust each other means we will check each others arguments more carefully than two townies who agree would, which is good for the town because it means we’ll make fewer mistakes.

Other good reasons to vote me:
I’ve been trying harder than most of you to find scum. I’ve also been suggesting more ideas, although some of them were addmitidly not very good. I’ve shown you I’m unafraid to put forward ideas like massclaiming that are known to be unpopular; what would scum gain from doing that?

If you revive me I will do the following things for you:
Keep actively looking for scum.
Never vote for someone I believe to be scum, no matter how much pressure the other revived people put on me.
Listen to you and admit when I am wrong.
Keep putting forward ideas ans making accusation, no matter how hostile the reception.
Use my vote to revive people only when there is a majority consensus, which includes you all.

I am the best choice for today.

Tamuz- Please find whatever it was I said that makes your spikes bristle. I know I can explain if you show it to me, but I can’t defend myself about something if I don’t know what it was.
Anyway, I like your idea so I’ve stolen it and modified it slightly:

Today I would revive
M4yhem

Tomorrow I would support:
Tamuz- He’s skeptical of both me and Yos, which I think would be healthy for the town. Also showed up late to the party, which makes him less likely to be scum in my eyes.
Twito-Shares my suspicions of Yos.
TheManHimself- I thought it over and decided that it’s unlikely scum would be the first to roleclaim.


I am unlikely to vote for:
Al_Kohaulec- He seems to be agreeing with everyone’s ideas, but I don’t remember him suggesting any of his own. Says I’m human, but doesn’t want to revive me; I see this as a way of trying to keep in my good books while agreeing with majority opinion at the same time.
Chaotic_Diablo- Seems to be suggesting that patterns of behaviour are useless for finding scum. Wants to wait until we have evidence before looking for scum. I think that’s a seriously anti-town argument. We need to look for suspicious behaviour all the time, IMO, since our best defence is not to revive scum in the first place.

Your not relying on scumtells so don't go off-topic. Your just evading the main point.

I don't need to have a plan to explain how your plan is stupid. However, intimidation is a scumtell. Aside from that, don't expect that we will get anywhere

without

plausible evidence. Most lynches in mafia should not be backed with illogical arguments.

Your response is seemingly overaggressive.

Tamuz is on the top of my list for revival.

1)I am using scumtells to look for scum.
2)What was your main point again?
3)There are certain behaviours that will help scum get what they want. There are other behaviour which will make them more likely to lose. You don’t need to be a genius to work out the scum are more likely to do things that will help them win.
4)If you are going to critisise my plan, you need to suggest an alternative, otherwise you leave us with nothing, How does nothing help us catch scum?
5)Intimidation is not a scumtell. Townies are more likely to be aggressive in attacking people because they are eager to find scum. Scum want to avoid confrontation because it draws attention to them.
6)What plausible evidence do we have, at this stage of the game? Are you suggesting we wait until the first night? How does that help the town exactly?

It dosn't feel like we have a whole lot to go on at the moment. M4yhem, did you realize you were casting the last vote at the end of the day yesterday?

Yes, Yos.

Crash- Not trying to buddy up to me again, are you? You should know that won’t work twice. Thanks for sticking up for me nonetheless. And keep talking.

[M4yhem]

One thing I'm noticing is that some ppl try really hard to be revived and I find this kinda scummy coz in the current situation it's not necasserily advantageus to revive power roles and why would vanilla townie try so hard to be revived?

I know my own alignment. I don’t know anyone else’s, although I can guess. I trust myself; I suspect the rest of you, although some are more suspicious than others. Now I need to revive townies to win. I could either take a gamble by voting for someone else, or I can vote for a (from my point of view) guaranteed townie. I agree that the scum will also be trying to be revived; but I wonder if they would be so blatant.

One thing to talk about is when it's advantageus for power roles to be revived. When is good time for Doc?, Cop?, RB?

I see no harm in answering this question, but what do the rest of you think?

Patterns of behavior is the same as black and white.

Not even wrong.

You have to find contradictions, faulty language, loopholes, and unexpected turns.

These are some of the things I mean when I say behavior. Sorry if that was unclear.

If you state that Yos is scum for acting protown, what about the statement that someone else is scum for acting scum? Are you just stating that everyone is scum?

Scum act differently according to the skill level of the player. I read through a game where Yos was scum; he has leet scum skillz. Same goes for Crashy. I don’t know about the rest of you; if someone is acting obviously scummy, I’m not going to ignore it.
And yes, at the moment everyone is potential scum, although some are more scum than others.

Also, don't misinterpret my use of the word "evidence" as cop claims and etc. It's merely a word to describe that you need something plausible to support your claims.

What do you mean by ‘something plausible?’

1. Like what?
2. My main point is that your using WIFOM logic.
3. Yes, there are certain behaviors, but what makes you think that scum will be most likely to follow those behaviors? If those behaviors are obvious enough to be suspected, it's stupid to try them. A

good

scum isn't stupid, they don't follow the usual behavior and become predictable.
4. Like I said, I don't need a plan to explain how your plan is idiotic. If your plan consisted of jumping off a 2000ft cliff to get to the bottom, I can inform you of the problems. I don't need to provide an alternate one, I'm happy being

alive

than dead. If you want me you want me to make a plan, I can just push you off the cliff and call it a plan.
5. Again, using WIFOM logic. What if scum were to act like a townie and be aggressive? Are you going to ignore those people? Do you even know what a scumtell is?
6. Earlier, Tamuz actually made a good point on Yosarian compared to your argument. Tamuz stated that though Yosarian was helpful, it actually isn't helpful because it's all really just speculation and doesn't help us at all. You stated that Yos was scum because he was helpful. Tamuz's argument was more plausible because it revealed the deception under Yos's guise. Your argument was just a bunch of WIFOM logic backed with no reasoning. If Tamuz had stated that earlier, I would probably have reconsidered my vote for Yosarian.

1. All of them. If I see someone doing something which is a scumtell, I will say so.
2. Fine. I strongly disagree with your main point.
3. They follow these behaviors because

it helps them win.

3.a Not all scum are good scum.
4. Last I checked, this was a game and not a life-and-death situation. But if we must use weird metaphors, here’s a better one:

Imagine you are walking along next to a cliff when you see a little boy standing on the very edge.
‘Boy’ you say, ‘what are you doing?’
‘I need to get to the bottom of the cliff, so I’m going to jump’ he says.

‘Don’t be stupid’ you snap at him; ‘you don’t get to the bottom of cliffs by jumping! What a terrible idea!’

Then you walk off. Now, you may have saved that little boy’s life, but did you help him get to the bottom of the cliff?

5. If scum act aggressive, they get lots of attention focused on them. That is risky and lower their chances of winning.

6. Yes, Tamuz is clever, isn’t he? Well done Tamuz ;

Yos- Distancing yourself from Chaotic_Diablo, are you? Smart choice, that man.

We need more discussion before we agree to revive me. Here are some questions I’d like you all to answer, please. Yes, even the lurkers at the back.
a) Who do you think is scummiest right now?
b) What makes you think that?
c) Who, apart from yourself, is most likely to be town?
d) What reason do you have for thinking that?

[M4yhem]

We need more discussion before we agree to revive me.

Note the fallacy here...

Er, what fallacy? I believe myself to be the best candidate for revival, yeah, but at the same time I want more discussion because firstly, it gives us more info with which to find scum and townies, which makes deciding who I vote for tomorrow easier. Secondly, more discussion will help convince you to revive me. Thirdly, I enjoy reading other peoples opinions and arguments; I wouldn’t be playing this game if I didn’t.

Tamuz-Did you see I provided reasoning for my self-vote in my first post, and in some others? What did you think of my reasoning? Do you agree that townies might also have reasons for being eager. Also, what do you think of the discussion C_D is having with me? And do you realize that Chaotic_Diablo and Yos have been voting for each other? Where’s the diversity in that? Also, for you records, I would have strongly opposed a random plan, because it leaves us with no information and because it wouldn’t have been much fun.

Al_Kohaulec- I am concentrating on myself because I am the best candidate. I gave reasons at the start, did you read them? I also gave a list of people I would revive tomorrow. I think we need to hear more from the others, not from me.

Chaotic_Diablo:

In gaming, it's any kind of game or subgame, especially a psychological one, in which a player is given a set of apparently equal choices where one or more is completely wrong. In such games one often may try to use what he knows of his opponent to make a better choice, but this often leads to recursive reasoning, as anything that one player could think of is something another player could think of, in the form of "But that's just what he wants me to think, so I'll do the opposite…but maybe that's what he want's me to think…so I'll not do the opposite…but maybe that's what he want's me to think…etc, etc."

This is the actual definition of WIFOM. Now how can youn consider the things I said about Yos and the predictions I made about how scum would act to be WIFOM?

My point is not moot, because my point was that Yos might be scum despite being helpful. But yes, Yos seems to play almost the same as town.

Fact: Not all of you are scum. Also Fact: From my point of view, any of you is potentially scum at the moment.

. There's your contradiction. You say that

good

scum will follow a certain behavior, then you rely on those behaviors to catch them. When I suggest that good scum won't be predictable like that, you say that not all scum are good. Your backpeddling.

No backpeddling, because I disagree that good scum wouldn’t be predictable. They will use the behaviour that helps them win, even if I say in thread that that is what they’re doing.
4. The problem with this argument is that I didn’t suggest a plan at all. I explained

how I thought scum might act

and you freaked out for some reason.
5. I’m not sure you’re reading what I write. I

would

notice them, because by being overaggressive they draw attention to themselves,

including my attention.

.
6.This point is basically useless flamebait, isn’t it?

Mr. Cesar- Any reason for that vote?

Thoth- Are you more likely, on average, to disagree with other townies or with scum? Which posts do you disagree with? Do you agree with the things Chaotic_Diablo is saying to me?

[M4yhem]

Reading through this, it's looking incredibly scummy. Before you immediately click "Quote" and start ranting towards, me, I want you to stop and think. If you are town, will ranting at everybody help make you look like town? Will it help us all win? Probably not. You need to start posting in a more progressive manner, the way you post now makes you look like scum. I say this because the way I'm reading your posts gives me the feeling you could be simply a very irritated townie, and it'll probably look bad for me to be protecting you, but although I see some of your actions as scummy, I'd rather not have the town single you out for it.

Ok, I hear ya. This aggressiveness is my playstyle; it has been getting me into trouble a lot though, so I guess I need to adjust it slightly. In my defense, or not depending on how sympathetic you are feeling, I’ve only played two games on this site, and four in total, so I may not be at the same standard of the rest of you yet. And yes, I am getting slightly irritated; this is because from my point of view I’m been doing everything I can think of to help the town; suggesting ideas, giving my opinions, looking for scum and so on, and all I’ve gotten in return is grief. I’m willing to accept that at least part of the problem is a failure on my part to communicate with you; please give me another chance?

Let’s agree to disagree about the WIFOM argument. You are right that it’s not taking us anywhere good and I’m ready to move on.

Thoth- Ok, fine. That’s your prerogative. Just try to remember that disagreeing with you does not make me scum.

Yos- Yes, one of the problems with this setup is that townies and scum have very similar goals; at least at the moment. Which is why we have to be extra-super-careful, today and tomorrow.

Al- I wasn’t saying lurkers were confirmed. The good thing about this setup is that it seems to punish scum more than town for lurking; because more active players will probably be revived first and scum are fewer in number than town.

Chaotic_Diablo- I offer you a peace deal. Let’s agree to disagree? Anyway, I’d like a little more reasoning on Thoth- he hasn’t posted much of interest to me. I’m sorry if I flamed you- it wasn’t intentional; I just tend to be a little too passionate about this game sometimes.

Tamuz- Okay. If you think that’s a fallacy, go ahead.
But on the Mr. Ceaser thing- er, what? If I ask you for reasoning, would that make us buddies?
I disagree that activity is scumtacular. I had an active playstyle; Lordy lurks in all the games I’m in with him. Activity is basically a null tell.
And there’s no need to swear. If I manage to stop myself, so can you.

Al- Yeah, limbo players can post.

Unvote

I surrender my fate to the will of the people.

I’m really not feeling the Thoth wagon. He’s said almost nothing, and what he has said has not been helpful in my eyes. Someone pro-thoth explain it using small, friendly words please?

Al_Kohaulec has gone up on my townie list. I think scum would gain more from leaving me to tie myself in knots than they would by helping me.

The more Tamuz posts, the less I want to revive him.

Need to hear more from CrashTextDummie and TheManHimself.

Here’s an important question- do we trust Yos? Chaotic_Diablo and Alky both have strong positive connection to him.

[M4yhem]

Tamuz, darling:

Let’s not quibble about the meanings of words; I’m sure it’s boring everyone, even me.

I asked Mr.Ceasar for reasons because I wanted him to talk more and asking him about a topic he was interested in seemed like a good way to do it, honey. I also think that what people say about themselves is as interesting as what they say about others, sweetheart.

I have no problem with metagaming; it can be very useful.

The swearing was part of the reason I reacted like I did, yes. I’m afraid I assumed it was directed at me.

Some questions for you, Tamuz my flower:
If we revive you, whose revival are you most likely to support next?
Whose revival are you most likely to argue against?
Do you trust Yosarian?
What are the reasons for your answers to the questions above?
Do you think you are the best candidate for revival? If so, why? If not, who would be better?

Yos –I disagree. I think the scum have everything to gain from being supportive of their partners. They probably won’t be the first to vote for each other, but they will probably back up any townie who picks their buddy as a choice for revival. They will be saying things like: ”I agree with x and here’s a few more reasons my buddy is a good choice.”

I think the scum are still likely to use bandwagonning as a tactic to hide their intentions. Therefore, anyone who stands out from the crowd and has their own opinions is a good choice.

Nobody has given me reasons to vote Thoth so I guess that wagon is sunk.

Lordy: You are 100% right. I am a petty little bastard.

Thoth: What’s a morton’s fork?

Mr. Cesar:

[M4yhem]

It might be WIFOMish to talk about what scum might or might not do, but surely it's helpful? I mean, we need some basis for deciding who to revive. Or are we just telling the scum how not to behave?

It's basically day one all over again at the moment, isn't it? We revived Yosarian but we have no idea if we made the right choice; normally we would have a dead townie, giving us a confirmed innocent. So how do people catch scum on day one?

Tamuz- You ignored the questions I gave you. Please answer them, or give me a reason for not doing so.

CrashTextDummie- Good to hear from you. I agree with you on points 1 2 and 3, but I've decided that bandwagonning without reasons is scummy, since it theoretically allows scum to vote for thier buddies on the strength of someone elses arguements. I expect townies to be able to provide reasons when questioned. Also, did you only start posting because Chaotic called you out? It seems like it a little.

Yosarian wants people to be clear about thier suspicions; let us give Yosarian what he wants:

I would revive today:
Myself
Tamuz

I want to hear more from/about:
Twito
TheManHimself
CrashText the Dummie
Mr. Cesar
Yellowbounder
Anyone else I've forgotten-if I've forgotten you you aren't talking enough.

I will NOT vote to revive:
Al_Kohaulec-too nice and wishy washy. can't remember him taking a stand on anyone.
Chaotic_Diablo- Anytime someone mentions how scum might act, he tries to quash them by saying it's WIFOM. I don't like that at all.
Thoth-too negative.

[M4yhem]

Crash- Dude, that’s the scummiest thing I’ve ever heard- you don’t contribute until someone calls you out for lurking? Come on now. Don’t be counting on my vote for a loooong time.

[sulk] Noone tried to revive me either, apart from you. I think I’m a better choice than Mr.Cesar. [/sulk]

Anyway, call me an old-fashioned stick-in-the-mud, but I like to have reasons for voting for people. Can you imagine what it will be like if Mr.Cesar is one of the 3 people voting? Based on how he’s acted so far, he’ll just vote for anyone he feels like.

Still, the idea is tempting and I’ll think about it.

Hubert Cumperdale, your posting tastes like soot and poo.

I know I’ll regret asking but what does this mean?

Thank you for the answers to my questions Tamuz. I feel you could have sold yourself a little more.

I have this strange feeling TheManHimself might be a little bored.

Chaotic_Diablo- This is a mafia game. Finding scum is what we’re meant to do. I find it very strange that you keep trying to stop us.

Fos:C_D

Lordy:
Content != Town
Lack of content != Scum.
Having said that, I don’t get the Cesar voting either. I think some people are just mucking about.

Vote:Tamuz

Just to add something to the voting record. I’m not reviving anyone until Twito talks.

[M4yhem]

Hooray! The claiming debate again-fantastic!
Anyway, I’m in favor of claiming. Let’s have a look at the main arguments again:
The suggestion: That everyone who wants to be revived should claim.
Pros:
It helps us ‘fast track’ the power roles into revival.
It forces scum to either claim and risk being counterclaimed, or say they are townies and sit around watching the power role getting revived.
It allows us to maximize the amount of investigations we get (assuming there is a cop.)
Cons:
It paints targets on our power roles backs. I’m not sure how much of an increased problem this is, since there would be a limited number of people to kill anyway.
This plan is anti-doc. Since the doc is fairly useless if he claims, he could end up sitting around waiting with the scum and vanilla townies.
And counterclaiming isn’t the simple matter it appears to be, since this is a closed setup. There could be multiple cops or none at all.

So I would suggest that the power roles claim if they want to and counterclaim if they want to. It’s their lives to lose after all, and not mine.



Crash, are you sure that bandwagons are not a scum tool in this game? After all, they are still a good way to hide your true intentions and feelings.
Just being truthful, eh? Good. I was just testing your reactions.
Tamuz is overeager? Compared to who exactly- your laid-back self? Or the likes of me and Mr.Cesar?
And when will you share your reasons for not trusting Al_Kohaulec with us?

Chaotic- I don’t find repetition harmful. Boring maybe, but not harmful.

[M4yhem]

It’s their lives to lose after all, and not mine.

And if they lose their lives to scum, you lose. Or would you be happier that way?

I know, that sounded a bit heartless. What I actually meant was that I won’t be pushing anyone into claiming, because I’ve realize it’s not fair to ask they to risk their lives just so that I can have more information. But if they do decide to risk claiming, I won’t be condemning them for it either.
And obviously I would like all the lovely townie people to be revived and the scum to rot in limbo without being able to kill anyone; a flawless victory. But I would say that even if I was scum.

I agree that revived players are like our representatives; which is why I’ll only revive people who I trust to represent me properly. I would consider reviving Mr.Cesar, but not today or tomorrow.

Chaotic_Diablo- I know, I phrased it badly.
I don’t think CrashTextDummie and MrCesar are scum together, simply because Crash is much smarter than that, as scum. Of course, either of them could be scum on their own. I haven’t seen enough of them to be able to tell.

Al_Kohaulec- Winning is always fun. And like you point out, we would still have the ‘fun’ of deciding whose claim to believe and so on.

ChannnelDb is a smart guy; I don’t think we can win just by claiming. I don’t think claiming will totally screw us over either though.

This includes claiming, if you so desire.

This quote from the all-powerful modly one indicates that claiming has been considered in the setup; that probably means the consequences of claiming have been thought about, and balanced.

Out of curiosity, how do you make invisible text?

[M4yhem]

Yosarian- First, it's not 'Al's plan'; I'm fairly certain that me and TheManHimself suggested claiming first. Al just put it in a way that made it agreeable to you.

Second- I'm also fairly certain that you suspected both me and TheMan because we were in favor of claiming; yet now you claim Al is

less

suspicious because he 'suggested' it. That kind of favoritism and hypocrisy does not sit well with me.

Thirdly- The idea that scum don’t suggest pro-town plans is nonsense. Al-scum would be able to see that we are very unlikely to follow that plan; claiming has been suggested and rejected once already. He therefore takes the opportunity to look protown and gain a few points. What he’s actually doing is more of that echoing and agreeing with everybody which has made him suspicious to me in the past.

Diablo- I saw the don’t the first time. I was *gasp*

agreeing

with you.

Tamuz- redflag? What, you think I’m so dumb as scum that I would ask out loud how to do something sneaky? I just want to know for, er…later. Yeah…later.

I don’t believe in the Sk.

*Smacks Crash hard upside the head* No, you

fool

! Chaotic is currently the frontrunner is the I-think-these-people-are-scum steeplechase (sponsored by M4yhem!)
hence, we don’t revive him. Will you stop looking for hints or whatever it is you’re doing and join the conversation please?

[M4yhem]

Bah humbug. It seems pretty clear that the things that Al_kohaulec said follow on from what a lot of people said, mostly notably me.

It allows us to maximize the amount of investigations we get (assuming there is a cop.)

As for the roleclaiming thing, one pro part of it is if the cop and doc are revived, and the cop can target limbo players, then we are guaranteed at least 3 investigations (I think). N1 investigate, N1 no killing is allowed. N2 investigate and doc is killed. N3 investigate, cop might be killed. However since each scum is given a specific time when they can start killing, this is dependent on both scum being revived, and being able to kill early. Also, a scum kill that early when everybody except that one scum player is claimed would show us who one of the scum are, and if we get a vig revived, then he can remove the scum when he hits the doc.

I find it both irritating and highly suspect that Al_Kohaulec is being given credit for it and I am not.

I also find Yos and Al’s turnaround on claiming quite scary. What, d’you have enough information now that you think you can get away with fake claiming?

And isn’t trying to direct the cop and the doc a giant, flashing neon scumtell?

Al- Yes, you’re right. That is WIFOM. Well spotted. I know that I, as scum, would certainly propose a plan like that, if I was myself planning to claim cop. Especially if my partner had earlier brought up the possibility of there being an insane cop. So yeah, it’s meaningless.

I think we can probably use our common sense to guess the roles. For instance, I’m pretty sure there’s at least one cop, because our usual sources of information (lynchs and nightkills) are reduced. On the other hand, I could believe that there’s no doc, because the setup itself protects the townies. And Yos has a point about the vig-as-lynch, although it pains me to agree with him.

Yes, yes, I know. Don’t outguess the mod. But I think we can make a few assumptions in safety; the setup itself is twisty enough.

[M4yhem]

You guys are all sissys. Let's bandwagon chaotic_diablo and Mr. C and get this day over with.

Aye aye, Mr.Dummie, Sir!

Unvote, Vote:Mr.Cesar

IT’S ALIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!!!

Fos:All you Sissys

I’m pretty sure that the last time Crash was scum, and I accused him of being scum, he reacted by calling me scum and building what looked like a credible case against me. Hmmm. Eeenteresting.

Anyway Crash, is being negative a scumtell? I had assumed that scum would be nice, because they want to be revived and avoid suspicion. What do they gain by being negative about people?

I’m pretty sure that I could be accused of ‘spreading distrust’ about the town. And I’m pretty sure that I’m protown.

Unfortunately, saying bad things about M4yhem is not a scumtell, although it really should be. Maybe I’ll petition to have it included in the wiki.

Having said all that, it’s true that Lordy is not being wildly helpful; but the same could be said about you. I know you have the capacity for reasoned arguments so how come you are acting so flaky?

Al- Yup, you’re wrong. Three players alive = night one.

As for your anti-Cesar argument, Thoth has already ripped holes in it. For the record, I agree.

Thoth- In my limited experience, scum say that as often as town. Usually only when their heads in the noose though.

[M4yhem]

You have a question for me, Yosarian old pal?

What is it?

CrashTextDummie:

Sissy? Is that some new breed of bad guy? Cause otherwise Lordy is teh right.

You say that you're trying to revive a protownie, but how do you know Mr Cesar is protown? For all you know his buddies might be 'burying' him because of the way he's acting. As for not trusting other's judgement, that's why we need to revive someone who will listen to the rest of us; Mr Cesar has not exactly got a shiny record in regards to listening.

[M4yhem]

Yos- I found Crash's arguements believable and compelling.

C_D- We

have

to revive someone. It's not like we have a choice. I'm ready to hammer Tamuz once he gets to six votes.

Need to hear from the lurkers really.

[M4yhem]

Zomg!!! Teh mod is talking to me!!! I must be special!!!1

What should I call it, a remmah?

Yos-Fine, I'll give you the real reason, in a feeble attempt to restart conversation. I voted for Mr.C to see how the rest of you would react. Unfortunatly the reaction was pretty much apathy, which doesn't tell me much.

C_D- True enough. Not my problem though; I've already said that Tamuz is my second best choice for revival and nothing's change since then. We just need one more person to vote for him.

Would the people not voting (Tamuz, Twito, Thoth and Alky) please do one of the following things, or give a detailed reason why you won't do any of them:
Either
a)Vote for Tamuz
b)Explain what needs to happen/what questions need answering before you vote for Tamuz
c) Suggest an alternative choice with lots of detailed reasoning behind it, and explain what makes this choice a better choice than Tamuz for today.

*Twiddles thumbs*
No voteswitch yet. I what to be the remmah! (or stepladder, jaws of life, forceps, whatever you want to call it.)

[M4yhem]

As promised,

unvote, Vote: Tamuz

Hammer!

Hey if you and Yos are scum, don't keep us in the dark, ok? tell us immediately.

[M4yhem]

Since this particular corner of the universe hasn’t ended (yay!) I’m pleased to announced that we have so real information at last: Tamuz and Yos are not scum together. That’s news to me, if not to the two of them. Of course, either of them could be scum on his own, but it does mean we can trust what they say about each other. To a certain extent.


The choice today is easy and obvious.

vote:M4yhem

I'm still remembering some scummy behavior from him early on.

Be more specific. I can refute you if you explain what you mean.

Also note that he also had a somewhat odd looking vote for Mr. Ceasar.

1. Until Mr.Cesar is dead and scum, you have no reason to assume that voting for him is scummy.
2. I did it for kicks. So sue me.

How much more protown do I have to be before you revive me, Yos? What do I have to do, explain or answer to get you to change your mind?

Can you not see that the fact that Al_Kohaulec has been agreeing with popular opinion

all the time

is a bad sign? Or are you in cahoots?

[M4yhem]

EBWOP: sigh, 'some real information' not 'so real information'.

[M4yhem]

No, we don't have enough information to really "assume" anything. But like I said, it seems wierd to me that a few people voted for him for such weak reasons. Because of the nature of the game, that naturally makes me suspicious of him and, to a lesser extent, some of the people voting for him.

I’m pretty sure voting for Mr.Cesar was a joke/reaction getter on my part. I don’t consider that weird at all. But I think I’m less serious about my votes than other people. Similaraly, themanhimself voted for Mr.Cesar. That seems to have been just for fun. This is a game after all, and so I expect a certain amount of clowning around, espicially in the early stages or at point when disscussion slow down. The only Mr.Cesar voter who

I

fing suspicious is Crash, because he seems serious about the whole thing. But if he was scum with Mr.Cesar, I’d be dissapointed. Pretty sure Crash is a better player than that.

Now, if you find the Mr.Cesar voting suspicious, imagine how your interaction with Al_Kohaulec looks from my end. He’s one of the first to vote for you and since then you and him have been saying nothing but nice things about each other. You agree with the claiming thing when it comes from him, but not when it comes from anyone else. You’ve got a cute little mutual support club going.

There are other people who fit this pattern as well though. Take Chaotic and Thoth. Thoth turned on me once I got in a fight with Chaotic, and said that he’d agreed with

everything

Chaotic said. C_D tried to revive Thoth for much of yesterday, and Thoth is now trying to revive C_D. I find that amusing. And sinister...

Early in the game, I was suspicious of you, and I've learned not to avoid early day 1 gut feelings in mafia games.

Ah, the good ole ‘gut feeling’ arguement. There’s nothing I can say to disprove that, as you well know. All I can suggest is maybe you had too much cheese for lunch? Or perhaps you need more fiber in your diet?

As for my gut, I try to ignore it, cause it’s wrong as often as it’s right. Having said that, in the newbie game I was in I had these strong feelings that Crash was scum, but I left him alone because there was no evidence against him. It’s a similar thing now with Al_Ko; he’s done nothing that I can point to as scummy, but I feel like there’s something wrong.

Heh. Well, I kind of see what you mean, but it's worth mentioning that he was just accused of the exact same thing in another game I'm playing with him. Of course, he might be scum there for all I know, and I'm not going to discuss ongoing games in any detail, but at the moment I'm thinking that he might just have a "consider all points of view" kind of playstyle.

The problem is that this is exactly the arguement you

would

make if you were scum with him.
I am also in another game with him, and I’ve come to a totally different conclusion than you. But we can discuss ongoing games, so we’ll have to wait and see.

Al_Kohaulec- My problem is that what you agree with covers

everything

at one point or other.
Here’s your chance to take a stand:
1. If you had to dayvig two people

right now

who would it be? Give reasons.
2. If you had the power to revive two people, apart from yourself, who would they be? Give reasons.
3. If you had to unvive either Yos or Tamuz, who would you pick? Give reasons.

[M4yhem]

Al_Kohaulec- Thank you for your answers. I’ll put them in my files _.
As for the Mr.Cesar thing, I can’t believe you really think it wasn’t a joke on my part. In the actual post where I vote Mr.Cesar, the only reason I give for the vote is ‘aye aye captain Crash’ or some other such nonsense. Then I spend the rest of the post attacking Crashie’s case for reviving Mr.Cesar. As for starting an easy bandwagon, I was the only vote on Mr.C at the time. Am I really supposed to believe that six votes would appear for him out of thin air? Consider how long it took to revive Tamuz when there were actual good reasons for reviving him.

You day-vig selection does not make me happy Attacking people I how I play the game. There’s not much evidence floating around at this stage, so naturally some of my logic will look crappy. That’s ok by me, because I’m more concerned with getting people’s reactions than building a credible case at this stage. This seems to be a clash of playstyles to me. I’m guessing you like to have lots of evidence before attacking someone. I don’t have the patience for that.

I don't like the "pretty sure crash is a better player then that" argument. Scum really need to get at least one of their own revived soon if they're going to have a chance. So I wouldn't be suprised if scum give each other more direct support then you'd see in a normal game; sure, it's a risk, but they might think it's one they have to take.

Consider it analogous to your ‘Al’s playstyle’ argument. I’ve seen Crash as scum, and he’s subtle and devious. He’s more than capable of building a proper case on his scummbuddy if he needs to. I would be genuinely disappointed is he was scum with Mr.Cesar. Think about it. If the scum come in threes like normal games, Crash would have another buddy somewhere, who presumably is acting less wacko than Mr.C. So what would he gain from trying to revive the guy that it’s obvious no-one wants to revive? I agree that scum will be more direct in this game, but there’s direct and then there’s

stupid

. Crash is not stupid.

Too lazy to quote the rest of your stuff but some quick points:
I know the plans look different on the page, but I had actually thought of Al’s plan in my head, which is why I overreacted to you praising him for it. Of course you’re unlikly to believe me but I thought I’d tell you anyway. I agree it’s a good plan, but it’s really up to the cop & doc to decide, isn’t it. I imagine that our marvellous mod will have thought of something to counter it, like the cop can only investigate living people, so that we’re still in the dark when reviving people.

Doesn’t it bother you at all when I accuse you of being scum with somebody? I would be up in arms if you falsely accused me.

I agree about the trust issue. If you are town, Al could still be scum that’s buttering up to you. I like to see a little more paranoia.

And oh wow, I’m all the way to ‘probably won’t revive’ already? Let’s start dancing!

m4yhem, your trying awfully hard to prevent my revival, not that I would consider it due to my recent lack of posts.

Because I think you’re scummy.

I’m sure you can understand, if town, since you’re doing the same thing to me.

Aside from that, support for Thoth was brief, as opposed to what you said as "much of yesterday." In fact, you can claim that I supported Tamuz the longest and that is probably more truth than with Thoth.

Ok, I exaggerated. The mutual support is still there. Plus, Tamuz was the popular choice. Your support for him is therefore meaningless.

However, I could say that I'd only consider Thoth just to mock m4yhem.

Go ahead. As long as you understand that you’re setting yourself up for pages upon pages of ‘ZOMG!!! C_D and Thoth are scum!!11!!!! type spam.

M4yhem: egotistic, "I'm the only good candidate for revival!"

Look at your own list. I

am

the best candidate for revival.

I'd recommend to the town choosing someone who neither Yos or I support (Mainly Yos from my perspective, but I sympathize with the town, so someone I don't support as well) so that there is a smaller chance of us losing so quickly.

Well I do believe that would be me. Although it also fits Mr.C and Crash, to a certain extent. Yos doesn’t seem to be all that fond of my revival, anyway.

Twito- Badlogic. I’m town and it matters to me. I want to win.

If I had to choose someone, it would be CTD. Not only does is he not in favor of both players who have been revived, but he is also the one who thinks differently.

And I suppose I’ve always been the one agreeing with popular opinion? Never had any controversial ideas of my own, and so forth?

[M4yhem]

Hi Zindaras

C_D- What I find interesting is the way you seem to be playing down your connection to Thoth. This is in contrast to the way Yos straight-up admitted that he looked more favorably on Al_Ko because they agreed with each other. Why would you want to play down your connection to Thoth? I wonder...

Some of your remarks are bordering on flamebaiting again, which is odd because I thought I was being polite-ish when I addressed you.

Anyway, the main arguement against Crashy is the Dummie/Mr.Cesar interaction. So what do you make of that?

Alky, Yos- You both said you'd look at the C_D/ Thoth thing. What did you find?

[M4yhem]

Bah. Nobody trusts me.

Zindaras, any reason you want to be revived so bad?

[M4yhem]

Yos- Maybe I’m very stupid as scum, but I would suggest almost anything if I thought it’d make me look protown. Any plan can be broken if you’re smart. Also, what if one of the scum has a role that might mess up the plan, like an investigation-immune godfather, or a scum cop or scum doc? Or if they agreed pre-game to claim something?

It’s pretty much up to the cop if they want to claim. I would vote for the cop, but I don’t trust myself to separate fake cop hints from the real thing.

Zindaras- I know how you feel, but that’s not enough to get me to vote for you.

How about you answer a couple of questions?
Who do you trust the most at the moment? (apart from yourself)
Who do you trust the least at the moment? (apart from yourself, you crazy emo kid)
Who would you fight to revive tomorrow?
Who would you fight against reviving tomorrow?
What makes you the best candidate for revival?
Please give reasons for all your answers. Thanx. <3

C_D- I think the problem is my humor doesn’t translate well on the internets. Thus, you think I’m insulting you when I’m not. Maybe it’s because you’re American? (note, this is also a joke. Yes, my jokes suck. Doesn’t stop me trying.)

Tamuz- Meh. It’s no secret that I want to be revived. I like to lead the game, not sit on the sidelines. Plus, I don’t trust any of you. Even the mod. I mean, for all I know this is some weird experimental setup, where I’m the only townie and the rest of you have to act like I have a chance of winning. Damn you, Delibird!

I agree that Zindaras seems sane so far.

Where am I sucking up to Crashy? I thought I’d been questioning him as intensely as the rest of you. I am kind of fond of him though; we played in another game where he totally owned my newbie ass, and so I regard him with a kind of terrified awe.

I say, let the powerroles chose for themselves! Who’s with me? Yeah!

I like the way C_D has referred to himself as ‘jerk, screw you.’ <3

Thank mod there’s no such thing as no revive here. No lynch is seriously lame. Surely we have enough brain in our heads combined to think of something?

I support Tamuz’s pick someone unrelated to the two revived guys plan. I think Al_Kohaulec is being slippery. IMO, distancing is less likely than support in a setup like this.

[M4yhem]

Ok Zindaras. Waiting to hear from you.

I like the plan, as long as we remember that cops are not infallible, and godfather roles are not uncommon. Which we will.

Can I request to be checked first, or will you smite me for directing the cop? I want to liiiiiiive!

And let's do a poll:
Who trusts Yos?
Who doesn't trust Yos?
Who trusts Tamuz?
Who doesn't trust Tamuz?

My personal feelings on this shift every five minutes or so. Currently I lean towards trusting Yosarian (ZOMG!!1111) because he seems fairly reasonable and responds well to questioning. As a result, I start to think Tamuz is dodgy, for thinking that Yos is dodgy but never really explaining why.

[M4yhem]

Hmm...Silence.

Another question for the town in general (if you're scum, don't answer this):

If the cop doesn't decide to claim, how are we going to decide who to revive? What are you looking for?

[M4yhem]

Could you please kindly explain why you, of all people, should be revived when there are so many townies around?

Nothing would please me more.
I believe myself to be a good choice for revival because I’m not as obviously affiliated with Yos or Tamuz as some other people, I put forward my own ideas, I listen to and comment on other people’s ideas, I’ve shown a capacity to admit when I’m wrong, I’m one of the posters most eager to look for scum, I’ve done my best to be totally honest with you all, and I post fairly often so I’ll never keep you waiting.

C_D- My mixed heritage mind is happy to accept that.

Lordy, C_D- Thank you for your quick answers to the Tamuz/Yos question. Although saying you are neutral to them doesn’t really help us decide as a town whether we trust them, it’s better than no answer at all.

Lordy has a point. I hadn’t even thought that we might not have a cop at all. That seems so mean...

Zindaras- Don’t make me wait forever.

[M4yhem]

Zindaras- I liked your analysis, mainly because you seem to agree with me about almost everything.
What's your reason for being suspicious of Chaotic though? You say he's scummy, but you didn't quite say why.

Oh, and the fact Tamuz and Yos didn't like Mr.C does not give you an advantage over me, because they don't like me either, although I like to think I'm making some kind of upward progress.

The 'uncertainty of cops', reasons against the cop revival plan:

We don't know if we have a cop, we don't know if the cop is sane, we don't know how many cops there are, we can't trust a claimed cop cause they might be bold scum, we don't know if the cop can check people who are 'in the void', there may be investigation immune godfathers, there may be millers.

I'd hate to be blindsided with Yos being scum and someone he supports getting brought in here because nobody had the balls to stand up and state this.

Yeah, cause it's not like anyone has been warned you about Yos being scum

from the start.

[M4yhem]

Random voting, in my opinion, really sucks. And I'm not withdrawing my self-vote unless I find someone better, so at deadline I would be one of the three who were selected from.

I don't really care about the numbers, for me this is a gameplay issue. If a townie was selected randomly, is that really a victory for us? Where's the fun in that? Where's the strategy? Where's the game?

Anyway, let's do a quick poll. Is there anyone who would consider reviving me? Any concerns you have about my revival that I can address? Any questions that need answering?

Same questions, except replace 'me' with 'Zindaras'
Same questions, except replace 'Zindaras' with 'Al_Kohaulec'

Zindaras- Your case looks weak. I don't like Chaotic, but we need something more substansial than that. For example, what's wrong with self voting?

Thank you for your cooperation, town.

[M4yhem]

unvote, Vote: Zindaras

I have no trouble believing that claim.

I would suggest that you investigate me tonight, but it's actually a better idea to check out one of the living players. I'm sure you know which one I mean. Although obviously it's up to you.

Fos: All those not voting Zindaras

He's the cop! The Cop! Everybody bandwagon, right now!

[M4yhem]

Yos- It's not anti-town advice, it's anti-you advice, as I'm sure you guessed. I think making sure the people already revived are not scum is quite important, since they are the ones which will be doing the killing. Not to mention that we now have three good choices for the next revival. ( two so-far uncontested power roles, and the obviously pro-town M4yhem.) So on the whole, I'd rather be sure about your alignment, so that we can block/vig you if necessary, and take a chance on the revivals as we have been doing.

Zindaras- It is, of course, your choice. I can see the benefit of your plan as well.

Welcome, StallingChamp!
I would say it’s up to the individual power-roles if they want to claim. There’s no risk to them while they are in limbo, but it paints a targets on them for later. Personally I think that the quicker we all claim, the harder it is for scum to blend in. But opinions differ.

C_D- Aww, you poor scum. My heart is breaking for you. But can’t you wait until you’ve officially lost before complaining that the setup is broken?

Of course we can’t rely completely on the cop results, but it’s a good place to start. And I think that in a game like this, where the town’s early choices are kinda crucial, a godfather and perhaps a miller would be more than enough to balance it.

Fos: all those not voting Zindaras right now

Unvote,

to wait for Lordy (Hurry up, Lordy) and because I want to hammer.

[M4yhem]

Alky- I just checked your posts and you never voted for Zindaras at all. Now might be a good time?

[M4yhem]

Al- So now you want to be safe, but you didn't mind rushing to revive Yos, even though I urged caution? And Crash has already voted. TheManHimself won't counterclaim unless he's crazy, so lordy is all we need.

Actually, I have a really good plan right now, please refrain from reviving the cop until I say it (if i have time, I'll say it all in this post).


We revive the cop, we go into night.

Investigate the roleblocker, see if he's really town or not. Revive the doc, if there's a cop death, the doc is scum and needs to be lynched. Otherwise assuming we get town on the RB, we revive him next, so we'll have a living RB and a doc protecting the cop. The RB will tell us which of the two unkown revived players he chooses to target, if there's a death, the other person must be scum. If there's no death, either we have no scum revived, they chose not to kill, or we blocked the one that is scum. This should prevent...

I don’t get it. Why not just investigate Twito, if we plan to revive him first? I’d rather lose the doc early than the cop. And you forget that the scum get enabled to kill at different times, so being blocked once doesn’t tell us much, even if there is no kill.

. I would suggest investigating somebody other than M4yhem, he has started looking better in my eyes since the game first started, but if a godfather exists, he is my prime suspect for being a godfather.

For obvious reasons (cause they'll be who we want to revive), I think we should investigate players we think to be protown, to prove they're protown before we revive them, I believe we mentioned this before. I know Zindaras thinks I'm untrustworthy, but since I don't need to be alive to win, I don't mind not being investigated and not being revived. I say we should try to investigate most likely protownies in limbo because it's when we investigate a mafiate that deciding who to revive could get complicated.

Yeah, cause if I was godfather, I would totally bring it up when no one else had mentioned it. I’m glad you underestimate my intelligence so greatly; if you are scum, it makes it that much easier for me to beat you.
And you don’t want to be investigated yourself? Not a miller by any chance, are you? Oooo, suspicious.

Since everybody is suggesting plans, I’d like to suggest TheManHimself is investigated tonight, and that he then blocks Yosarian for all eternity.

C_D, my friend, you won’t ever be able to call me a jackass, because I’m all town, baby! And why on earth does me calling you scum upset you so, Mr. Scummy scummy scum scum? I would have thought an innocent man would just ignore me.

And I don’t really think the scum have already lost. Channel is a smart guy, therefore the setup is balanced. I still don’t see why that means we shouldn’t revive the cop.

I already think Zindaras is the right choice. He acts like a cop. I suppose I will have to wait for the rest of you though.

Also: “Scum already have a handicap.” What are you referring to here?

Vote: Zindaras

Most fantastic of Mods

, may we please have a prod on Lordy, if you deem it necessary? A thousand thank yous.

[M4yhem]

<3 CDb.

Bad Karma

: Chaotic Diablo, based on past behaviour.

I think Sherlock is a fairly good choice for revival. His claim would have been a very bold for scum, seeing as he was first to claim, and could easily have been counterclaimed. Plus our uncounter-claimed cop has found him town. There is the issue of sanity, but isn't it normal for there to be multiple cops, if sanity is an issue?

Besides, I don't really remember Sherlock's previous identity doing anything suspicious, or much of anything at all really, after his claim. Certainly I see no reason to suspect him.

Zindaras- Is there anything in the wording of your pm that indicates sanity is an issue? Have you asked CDb if you are sane? Can you investigate the living? Are there any limitations to your power?

Good Karma

: Sherlock

I think it would be somewhat foolish not to revive a cop-identified innocent.
There aren't that many other choices anyway. I find Al's pushing of Twito weird; perhaps he knows something the rest of us don't?

Although he sort of has a point, in that if Twito was revived and Zindaras died, there would be one suspect; if Sherlock was revived, and Zindaras died, there would be two suspects (Sherlock and whoever he didn't block). So scum-Twito would be unlikely to kill the cop, for a fair amount of time.

I haven't really found Twito suspicious so far; mainly because he was against the Yos revival. Actually, I'm not sure if the timing of his claim was that suspicious; if he had been godfather, with a known safe claim, I don't see what he would have lost by coming out earlier.

Other the other hand, I would argue that the chance of preventing a kill completely, is better for the town as a whole that just stopping kills on one person. So that's a point in favour of Sherlock.

Tamuz- Would you rather have yourself, or Yos, be roleblocked? Give reasons.
Yos - Same question, names reversed.

Bad Karma

: Yosarian2

Good Karma

:Zindaras

[M4yhem]

Al, C_D- I didn’t ask the questions earlier because I wanted the day over with. I was already considering Zinder’s revival before he claimed, so I saw no reason to wait afterwards. Now my mind is refreshed after a little break from the game, and I’m ready to think critically again. Don’t really see how the delay is suspicious, but whatever.

Chaotic- What happened to waiting for Lordy?

Have you asked CDb if you are sane?

Now I have. >.>

I can guess, but might as well be clear: What did he say?

Ah, there is, however, one thing to note:

Sherlock can't be a godfather. A godfather-roleblocker? It would be quite silly of a godfather to claim roleblocker. Also, I think the Mafia would gladly trade one of its own for a (sane) limbo cop.

But if Doc can be given as a safe claim, surely roleblocker can too? Not that I believe this, just putting it out there.

StallingChamp- Yes, other cops should claim immediately. For one thing, it helps to give clue about sanity issues; it also helps us to work out if Zindaras is faking it.

Yos- No answer to my question? If you consider it beneath you, explain why.

Good Karma Twito

Sherlock- you out there, man? This is your big scene.
Some questions for the greatest detective in fiction:
Who do you trust the most, apart from yourself?
Who do you trust the least?
What do you think of Zindaras, Tamuz and Yosarian?
Who would you fight to revive next?
Who would you fight against reviving?
Do you want any guidance on who to roleblock tonight?

A summery of things TheManHimself said, for lazy viewers.
He was always in favour of reviving powerroles first, and in getting people to claim before revival. I consider this a protown stance, although Zindaras’ safe claim theory has made me rethink a little.
He was suspicious of Thoth.
He voted to revive Mr.Cesar, then said it was a joke
Voted for Yellowbounder for the heck of it.
And that’s pretty much all.

You all know this already, but might as well make sure it’s crystal clear: Zindaras can’t be scum with Yos or Tamuz, or else the game would be over. All of them can be scum by themselves, of course.

Mr cop sir, I believe the following people to be scum, based on vibes/ responses/general dodginess:
Chaotic_Diablo- against looking for scum, tried to stall cop revival, just generally creepy, overagressive.
Al_Kohaulec- scummy interactions with C_D, fence-sitting, doesn’t want to be investigated.
Thoth- Overwhelmingly negative without cause, aggressive, choice of C_D for revival.
Yos- against claiming (has something to hide), interactions with C_D and Al, possible fear of investigation.

The following people are probably town:
Crashy teh dumb- Did his own thing despite popular opinion, stuck his neck out to revive you.
Twito- Just seems town. Not sure I buy your safe claims theory.
Tamuz- Seemed focused on finding scum when he was in limbo. Quieter now: what’s up with that?

Obviously shining example of protown goodness:
M4yhem

Need more data:
Stallingchamp
Lordy.

Lordy- anything to say?

Good Karma

: CrashTextDummie.

[M4yhem]

Yos- I know my case against you is not that strong. Nonetheless, I suspect you on and off, and so I have to put you on my suspects list.
You bring up some good points, once again. I had forgotten/never realised that we could win with just five people alive. In that case it makes sense to concentrate on revivals.

Alky- Any particular reason you persist in believing me to be a godfather? From my point of view, it seems like you’re trying to make sure I won’t be revived even if I’m found to be innocent; perhaps because you know I would never vote for you or your scumbuddies? If you are interested in the truth, take a look at speed mafia, where I actually was a godfather. Note how I never mention the role, even when another player suggests a heavily cop-reliant plan.

Bad Karma: Al_Kohaulec

StallingChamp- Like Zinders said, I want to know what you think of the other players. Who do you trust? Who do you distrust? Who would you be for/against reviving? Do you think any of the already living players are scum? Stuff like that.

Crash;
1. I said that already. You are reading my posts, aren’t you? Please? But you’re right, anyway.
2. Technically we’ve been in revive-or-lose since day 0.5. It

would

be a shame to lose now though, obviously.

C_D- You didn’t ask the cop any questions though. How did you hope to obtain information just by waiting? I don’t believe you, quite honestly.

Do you have anything to support your points?

Yes.

No matter what argument is brought up, anyone has an equal chance to be scum, whether they lurk the most or post the most.

Um...That’s just wrong. Scum act differetly from town, otherwise finding scum would just be a random coinflip. I can’t believe you believe that.

More thoughts on Sherlock:
There are basically three scenarios here, if we consider just the cop angle.

Scenario one: Zindaras is the cop, and he is sane. Sherlock could still be scum if he is the godfather. If Sherlock is the godfather, he can’t be roleblocker too, so he would have taken a big risk by claiming. I’d say 1 gives us a 90% chance of an innocent Sherlock, 10% scum Sherlock.

Scenario two: Zindaras is the cop and he is insane/naive/random.
If Zindaras were insane or naive, he could still get an accurate innocent on Sherlock by pure chance. It’s only if Zind is crazy that Sherlock is definite scum. I think naive cops are rare without paranoid cops, and random cops are just plain rare, but a crazy cop with backwards results would fit the theme. So I’d say Sherlock is 60% scum, 40% town in scenario two.

Scenario three: Zindaras is a liar, and is not the cop.
In this case Sherlock is most likely Zindaras’ partner. I’d say 99% scum.
For this to be true, Zindaras would either know there was no cop, or take a huge risk that he would not be counterclaimed. Sherlock would be claiming his real role.

So which scenario is most likely?
I have serious doubts about scenario three. I would say it stretches credibility.

Scenario two is obviously a possibility.

But I believe scenario one to be the case, because a sane cop would balance the fact that the town’s normal source of concrete information is cut off. By this time in a normal game, we would know the alignments of four to six people, based on lynches and nightkills. Not knowing which bandwagons are good or bad is a fairly significant handicap for the town. There may not even

be

a godfather.

[M4yhem]

At this stage in would be really nice to hear from the man himself, i.e. Sherlock. But since he’s nonresponsive, let’s talk amongst ourselves some more.

It seems to me like this is a two horse race today. It would be a bit mad to ignore both power roles and revive some unclaimed/vanilla guy instead. So the question becomes, Sherlock or Twito?

Twito- Would you mind answering some questions, please?
Who do you trust the most at the moment?
Which three players are most likely scum, and for what reason?
Who would you vote to revive tomorrow?
Which do you think is the most useful role; doc or roleblocker?
How about giving us your thoughts on everyone in the game?

Chaotic- I think you were trying to think of a way to prevent the cop from being revived altogether, and the stalling was just to give you thinking time. That quote don’t mean a thing; the point is you made little effort to work out if Zindaras was lying; you made no arguments against him, you asked him no questions. As for the sanity issue, how exactly were you planning to work out his sanity without reviving him? I still don’t buy it.

As for the Sherlock-should-make-his-own-arguments thing; wow, you actually have a point there. The problem is that waiting is really boring, and so I fill the time by speculating.

Al_Kohaulec- Who’s whiny? If you accuse me of something, I expect you to be able to back it up, that’s all. I might as well accuse you of being Godfather; I’ve as much proof as you do.
And yes, we can win without reviving me. But I happen to know my own alignment, so naturally I’d rather revive a known pro-towner than someone who I cannot be sure of.
Plus, I’m awesome.

Does anyone agree that a sane cop might be a good way to balance the town’s lack of lynch and nightkill information?

Sherlock’s behavior doesn’t really suggest anything either way to me. He hasn’t done anything I remember as scummy, but he hasn’t exactly been super pro-town either.

If the cop were to die, we could actually clear two people; whoever the blocker blocked, and the roleblocker themselves. Then we just have the roleblocker block the bad guy forever, and use our wits to work out who the scumbuddies are. Sounds like a winning situation to me. I suggest that if Sherlock is revived, he gives us the name of the person he plans to block, so that the information doesn’t die with him in the event of his death.