Mini 370: Reverse Mafia - Game Over!

[al_kohaulec]

All right, we can revive 3 players, and if we're lucky, and revive all three townies, then we win.

Any volunteers to be ressurected?

And what do you think is better, ressing a weak townie or powerful townie in the beginning?[/discussion topic]

[al_kohaulec]

I wonder if we can target the limbo players for certain roles, I guess we'll figure that out later.

My thoughts on reviving power roles vs. weaker roles early is that if the power roles are alive first, they can die off early, whereas weaker roles being alive first means that harmless townies would die first. But I'm also thinking we shouldn't resurrect based on the power level of one's role (unless if they're already claimed) because that could give away too much information.

And I think sharing some amount of role info. would be good early, as long as it could help us more then hurt us.

And CDB confirmed that we have more than 3 townies in this game.

[al_kohaulec]

CD is scum!!

so um.. 13 posts (most of which were the mods) and we have a cop claim?

[al_kohaulec]

nevermind, forget that last comment, i misread it. I even tried rereading it over and over to see if I did misread it, and I only just now caught it... Stupid me.

[al_kohaulec]

Ok, I checked the rules on night targetting, but it seems CDB already covered that.

I actually agree with Yos on many points, although a cop is still very useful in telling us who

is

scum and who isn't (so we can know who to vig/not revive), I agree that having a vig could end up being more useful as he'd essentially be our lynch everyday, since we otherwise don't have one.

I'm a little suspicious of M4yhem for his rebuttal of Yos, but that's more of a matter of opinion for what he said, so I shouldn't hold that against him, but I wouldn't be leaning towards a M4yhem revival anytime soon.

TheMan I believe we shouldn't resurrect until later. One reason being, he could be scum, and we want to avoid resurrecting scum. It is suspicious that he claimed so openly and readily like that. Another reason is since he is claimed, there's a fair chance that his early revival could be more harmful to us in that he'd be killed off quickly. Also, like Yos said, we won't be able to know if his blocks are helping us stop scum or not, and since scum have to wait x amount of nights before killing, he might end up blocking protown roles first.

I will for now

Vote: Yos

He does seem pretty pro-town to me. I think I'd rather not go too far into whether I believe power/non-power roles should be revived early or not, some should, some shouldn't, and a lot of it depends on our current situation. I think the best revival choices are who we think is protown (obv), and somebody who we believe will be useful to us alive, and good at choosing more townies for revival, since at day 1, we'll have 3 players who can vote to revive.

[al_kohaulec]

I agree with the previous poster. Yosarian's posts make the most sense to me sofar. I'd be willing to go for his revival.

Not so sure yet about the Roleblocker claim. Someone mentioned it being an ability scum often has. It happens sometimes, but in my experience it's still way more often a protown role. That aside I don't think there will be scum with special abilities in this game, unless they're relatively weak. A scum roleblocker would be extremely strong with only a few players alive. Much stronger than in a regular setting. Still doubting a protown roleblocker as well though. It's a role that I would not put in this game at all, so it makes it harder for me to believe it.

In my experience I've actually seem roleblocker as mafia more often than town, and have come to trust RBs much much less. However for this game specifically, it would seem very powerful to have a scum RB, so I would assume he'd be town, if telling the truth. But this is metagaming.

[al_kohaulec]

Crash, can you please explain any reasoning for your vote on reviving Yos?

You know that if Yos turns up scum I'm going to be looking at you pretty heavily.


I think I like the idea that M4yhem suggested where we don't necessarily listen to arguments of players who have already been revived, for these first few nights at least (until day starts). This does have a good chance of reviving a mafia player if we do this, but I'd rather have 1 mafia 2 town than a chance at 2+ mafia.

[al_kohaulec]

Hmm.. I left a few things out, my bad.

We

should

still look at what they're saying, but not lean too heavily towards it. I just don't want to run the risk of reviving 2 scum because of one scum member convincing us to revive his buddy.

[al_kohaulec]

Right now Yos is the only one I have thoughts on reviving, we still have two more to do later though.

Out of curiosity, Yos, if we had to choose those other two players now, who do you think you'd choose and why?

[al_kohaulec]

Perhaps that's due to Arrested Development.

I'm mostly decided M4yhem and TheMan I don't want to revive, it's possible I'll change my mind on TheMan if I don't find a better candidate, but Yos I've decided I would like to see revived. I'll do a look over the thread to see if I can find thoughts on other players, I'll also look at C_D and twito because they were both mentioned so far as players being looked at for revival.

[al_kohaulec]

And what do you think is better, ressing a weak townie or powerful townie in the beginning?[/discussion topic]

I say that we raise the most powerful townies we can. I vote that those who want to be considered for revival should claim first.

I noticed this as theman's first post and wanted to point it out. Even though theman claimed a RB, I find him as pretty scummy from his actions. This is one of those points were I'm suspicious of a player for what he's done, but doubtful and want to think he's protown for what he claims to be, a roleblocker. So I don't want theman revived until later in the game because I find him to be kind of scummy right now, but even as a protown player, he would be of more use once we decide on a player to start blocking.

As far as there not being any multiples of the same role, I find this doubtful. The lack of a RB counterclaim could be due to multiple reasons, amognst them:
*The other RB doesn't want to claim yet.
*There is really no other RB in the game.
*I forgot the third one.

I also find him suspicious for that quote earlier, trying to get the power roles to claim early. He even restates later, after we discuss claiming to be a bad thing, that he's in favor of reviving power roles, and that "scum w/o good claims" are less likely to be revived. This sounds to me like he's fishing for the power roles to be outed. I was also thinking that, since a RB is so hard to prove in this game, that he could have easily fake claimed as such to try to get revived early.


CTD I'm leaning slightly more on the townie side, but don't have an overwhelming read on him. He first mentioned being against massclaiming as it could ruin the fun of the game, and later I think again because of how it could be bad for us. His posts have seemed in the town's best interests, and I might be willing to revive him.



Hmm... I put yellowbounder down as my "more likely to be scum list" and had to review his posts to remember why I thought that. He only has one post so far, and this is it:

MOD: Can a cop investigate Limbo players?

Normally, in a Mafia game you would random vote someone, and everyone voting themselves will get us nowhere, so

Vote: themanhimself

.

Oh, I remember why now. It was weak reasoning, but something that's better kept in privacy for now. Thinking about it again, I think he may be townie, but not worth reviving.



Thoth was doubtful of the roleblocker claim and didn't necessarily believe it. He also said he was in favor of reviving Yos because of his reasoning, but didn't vote him yet because he doesn't want to rush it. He wants everybody to weigh in before we act too hastily.


Yos, as I've said, is my top taret for revival. He has posted a lot of dicussion that helps the town, and has seemed the most protown player that I've seen.


M4yhem, believe it or not, I believe to be protown, but I don't want him to be revived. Some of his suggestions have been for the town's best interest, but he has mentioned two things that are bad for us.

First of all, he suggested essentially a mass claim of the power roles. Now this is, without really looking into it, something that appears very beneficial to the town. If we make sure we resurrect only power roles, then we'll be able to avoid the scum, and take a strong control over the game straight from the beginning. The bad part of this is scum can fake claim to be revived, and then start killing off our power roles. But I can see how a townie player would like this plan, and how scum wouldn't, without looking into the plan too deeply.

Secondly, he mentioned not listening to arguments made by previously revived players. The reason this could be good is that if we make a mistake and revive scum, then they could easily influence us into reviving one of their scumbuddies. For instance, we could revive Yos, and if he's scum, he'd at that time have a lot of our trust. He could very likely wield a lot of influence in convincing us to revive C_D and/or alko, his scumbuddies. That's two, enough for them to win already. Of course this is bad because it stifles conversation, and we need to be able to evaluate what everybody says.


alko, as for myself, in the beginning I was against having myself revived, but now I might be more for it. Obv I don't want to go into specifics, but I'll be more willing to be revived if the town decides they'd like me to be revived.


Twito I'm a little suspicious of. He mentions how alignment doesn't have any effect on how you speculate on the setup, but it's what you share with the town, not how you speculate on the setup, that shows your alignment. It seems to me that he also uses this argument as reason for Yos's alignment not being of any matter at all. I am against a twito revival right now.


C_D noticed some good mechanics in the game so far. His speculation seems like it's very beneficial to the town. Wants us to discuss more on how to revive players than on speculating on the game, showing that he wants more game determining action to help the town. He suggested as his two others to revive were me and twito, just out of bias. If it wasn't for saying the bias part, I might be suspicious of him for saying twito simply because I saw no reason why he'd be a better revival candidate over other players. But since that was more of a "I don't have reasons to vote one person over the other, so I'll go for the ones I have a bias towards," negligable.


So in short:
Tamuz, lordy, and Mr. Cesar I want to hear more from.

theman, twito, yellowbounder, and m4yhem I'm against reviving, but I'm leaning towards town for m4yhem.


So for the remaining players, the order from most to least in how much I'd like them revived is:
Yos, CD, CDT, Thoth




Tamuz checked in, but I don't think it should take this long to start contributing, the thread isn't that long. But I'll wait for him to try to post something.

Lordy and Mr. Cesar haven't even checked in yet, I'd like to see prods on these two and to have them start posting.

[al_kohaulec]

And you would be against the idea that we don’t listen to you once you’re alive, wouldn’t you, seeing as you’re the front runner. What I want to achieve through that is to avoid any living scum manipulating us into bringing in their buddies. Have you got a better idea on how to achieve that? Lurking scum in this setting would be much less of a threat then normal, I would have thought, since it seems like the most verbose people will be the ones getting revived. If you disagree, explain why.

Al_kohaulec- Does my idea give us a higher chance of reviving scum than normal? How so?

Here's my reasoning:

If we listen too much to who's already revived, then I gave a previous scenario where if we revived Yos, and he was scum, he could lead us into reviving one or two of his partners. If he's town, he can speculate and probably help lead us to more town members.

If we don't listen too much to who's been revived, then we'll end up looking more at groups of players who are grouping together. Let's say we end up with approx. 3 groups of 4, and we pretty much revive one from each group. The last group would probably have 2 or 3 scum in it, and they'd try hard to get one of theirs revived.

Basically I'm saying that a revived townie has a better chance of leading us to more town than scum, but isn't guaranteed of course, but looking away from where he's leading us would point us in a different direction for each revival, and it's likely that one of those directions would lead to a scum revival. But I'd also be more in favor of getting stuck with one scum revival than making the mistake of reviving scum early and being led into another scum revival.

Ditto. “Let’s ignore the voting record, townsfolk. It won’t tell us anything.”
And shrug; having bad ideas does not make me scum. It just means I have played fewer games/ thought less carefully about it/ am dumber than you.

I hope you're being sarcastic, that's what I took it as at first, because we still need to look at voting records. It can tell us a lot. I think especially when we have 3 living players voting to revive players, that will tell us a lot on them later in the game.

And like he said, bad ideas doesn't always = scum. What constitutes an idea as bad is up for speculation and interpretation. I pointed out reasons why his suggestions could be good, but some of us here have decided that they'd be worse than they are good.

I still think we should look for scum in the normal way; see who defends who, who goes quiet when who is mentioned and so forth. At the moment, if voting to lynch, I would vote Yosarian. Yes, he’s very helpful, but that in itself can be a scumtell. I’m getting bad vibes from him. Anyone else?
On another note, we should try to work out who is town, from their reactions and so forth. Any suggestions?

Vote:TheManHimself

I agree with this still being a good old fashioned way of finding scum, and that we should use it. There's no reason to say it's a useless strategy that we can't use. The only game I can think of where that could apply is when SSB Reanacted the Civil War, and that didn't play out too well...

that "scum w/o good claims" are less likely to be revived

But this is true, surely? Unless the scum have safe claims, and even then we would be able to pick them apart.

Sure it's true, but that's also going to assume that we have a lot of townies claim as well, and I've already mentioned reasons why I don't want to see a massclaim. And this is a game where it'd be easy for scum to claim "Vig" and get revived based on that. We can't pick apart claims without night targets/results to analyze, and we can't do that until they're alive, which we want to avoid if they're scum. So this is not a good way to decide who to revive and not to revive IMO.

My current preferred order: TheManHimself, Mehem, Twito, Lordy, MrCeaser, Crash.

And Al, if you really think I’m town, you should be in favour of reviving me.

Why players like Lordy and MrCeaser? They haven't posted once, there's nothing to tell their alignment one way or another, and they're 4th and 5th on your lists? This doesn't make any sense to me.

And I am thinking your town, but I'm still trying to figure out for sure on you. I might change my mind, but we'll just have to see how things go. Until then I'm going to be reading and interpreting your posts, but I'm at least happy you are one of the more prominent posters here.

Yos- Are you just a normal townie? If so, what makes you worth reviving over other normal townies, and over powerroles such as themanhimself? Sure, you can talk, but you can do that here; and I’m far more likely to listen to you if I’m not worrying all the time that you’re scum. So what have you got to offer us, eh?

Now this is obvious rolefishing right here. There are reasons for not wanting to reveal all of our roles before we're revived. Our reasons for not wanting theman revived yet, even if he is protown, is that we don't want him to die right away. One thing we all seem to keep forgetting is that scum can't kill until a specified day unkown to us, but even then, that means that his blocking will only make things more difficult for us in the beginning of the game.

[al_kohaulec]

2)The waiting game: I can see more cunning devious scum supporting townies today, as an extension of the buddying up method, in the hope that once the townie they vote for is revived, that townie will then revive them out of gratitude.

Fos:Al_kohaulic

His last post gave me scummy vibes anyway. But my scumdar might be broken; the signal changes everyday.

The biggest problem I see with this argument is you are saying I'm scum who is reviving townies to gain their trust, so that then they'll revive me. This points at Yos being town, and me being scum. However, this whole time you have been pointing to Yos as your most likely scum suspect. This contradicts itself. Please explain.

Also, what the hell happened to caution? Some of our players haven’t even checked in yet, and Yos is already well on his way to being ‘born’.

And you say that those players are town because they haven't checked in yet, because scum would want to be vocal in this game. Yes, they would, but it doesn't mean that lurkers aren't scum.

Mod

, can we get prods on lordy and Mr. Cesar?

[al_kohaulec]

For the second revival, I would probably lean towards CTD or Thoth. I am trusting C_D a bit, but because of how closely he seems to be attached to Yos, I'd be against it in case of the chance that they are both scum.

For the second one though, I'd like for our inactives to at least check in and post something before I place a vote.

[al_kohaulec]

Mr. Cesar, you have two posts, and they both say "I want to be revived." I don't think you'll be revived like that today, read through the thread and post some thoughts on everybody as far as things like:

Do you think the Yos revival was good?
Who would/wouldn't you revive and why?
Who do you think might be scum?

And any other thoughts you might have, such as our methods so far mentioned for reviving players.

[al_kohaulec]

Looking over Tamuz, I think he's looking like a fair revival target. Lordy sounded good from his last post, but that's about all we have from him.

Mr. Cesar I definitely wouldn't revive because of his lack of contribution, thoughts, and any help whatsoever to us. Cesar, regardless of alignment, isn't going to be helping us if he's revived.

Lordy may not help us also if he doesn't become more vocal, but he is a much better candidate than Cesar IMO.

[al_kohaulec]

M4yhem, I already answered those questions earlier, but I would like to see others answer it. Tamuz already pointed out the fallacy you made though. You are trying too hard to get yourself revived, and not looking enough at others IMO. You need to look more at who else could be worthy of being revived.

I don't think we should discuss when certain power roles should be revived because that can give away too much information to the scum.

And I was going to ask you, Tamuz, why you put C_D and Yos in seperate categories like you did, but you did explain yourself. And those are good points there. I'm not sure I want them both alive together in the beginning, but I might think about your reasoning some.

[al_kohaulec]

I think as it stands right now, Thoth is my favorite choice for revival.

Vote: Thoth

[al_kohaulec]

Tamuz, you said you put the self-voters into your "I would not revive" list, but I'm the only one on that list who hasn't voted for myself. So far I've only voted for Yos and just recently Thoth. Why am I on that list?

I don't think I've even been trying to get revived by day 1.

[al_kohaulec]

EBWOP:

Al: among the over posting strategy that he is showing, his attitude towards M4yhem is also scummy. He waffles fiercly on M4yhem, and combining that with the way m4yhem rubs me wrong I see a strong negative connection betwixst the two.

And what I'm reading here is that how I'm acting towards M4yhem is scummy, and since M4yhem 'rubs you the wrong way' you find me scummy? Could you please explain that? I never understood what you meant here. It sounds like you're saying we're both scum.

[al_kohaulec]

Al_Kohaulec- I am concentrating on myself because I am the best candidate. I gave reasons at the start, did you read them? I also gave a list of people I would revive tomorrow. I think we need to hear more from the others, not from me.

Ok, *listens* They say you're not the best candidate. There's probably a reason for that.

My point is not moot, because my point was that Yos might be scum despite being helpful. But yes, Yos seems to play almost the same as town.

Something is considered a true WIFOM argument when both sides of the argument are equally appealing. You admit here that there is little if any difference in Yos's play when he's town and when he's scum, so both sides are equally appealing.

That

makes it WIFOM.

Fact: Not all of you are scum. Also Fact: From my point of view, any of you is potentially scum at the moment.

You can use the same argument in a regular game. This holds true for any game, this doesn't mean you have to refuse to help anybody and look out only for yourself. If you're town, we can win without you being revived, so don't look at that as the only option.

. There's your contradiction. You say that

good

scum will follow a certain behavior, then you rely on those behaviors to catch them. When I suggest that good scum won't be predictable like that, you say that not all scum are good. Your backpeddling.

No backpeddling, because I disagree that good scum wouldn’t be predictable. They will use the behaviour that helps them win, even if I say in thread that that is what they’re doing.
4. The problem with this argument is that I didn’t suggest a plan at all. I explained

how I thought scum might act

and you freaked out for some reason.
5. I’m not sure you’re reading what I write. I

would

notice them, because by being overaggressive they draw attention to themselves,

including my attention.

.
6.This point is basically useless flamebait, isn’t it?

Reading through this, it's looking incredibly scummy. Before you immediately click "Quote" and start ranting towards, me, I want you to stop and think. If you are town, will ranting at everybody help make you look like town? Will it help us all win? Probably not. You need to start posting in a more progressive manner, the way you post now makes you look like scum. I say this because the way I'm reading your posts gives me the feeling you could be simply a very irritated townie, and it'll probably look bad for me to be protecting you, but although I see some of your actions as scummy, I'd rather not have the town single you out for it.

[al_kohaulec]

That is a good point by M4yhem, Yos, but as far as our lurkers go, I don't think that's any reason to confirm them, I admit I see even lurkers more active than normal as scum, but usually lurkers remain lurkers nonetheless. I don't know that I'd try to pull too much out of it.

[al_kohaulec]

107: Al, you waffled on M4yhem in the same post. At the beggining you attacked him, and say you wouldn't support him, then towards the end you took the opposite stance. That isn't consistant play in my eyes, thats why I got the bad feeling and why I placed you in that list.

Ah, ok thanks.

Earlier I found some of his actions scummy, but not in the way scum would be doing it. I thought maybe he was a townie playing really bad, but his play only worsened, and it's looking even scummier now. I'm going down to having very little trust in that he could be town now.



And thanks for a good reason for M4yhem's fallacy, I didn't know how to say it.


Right now I think I'd be in favor of a Thoth and Tamuz revival. I'll have to think it over some more though. (yes I realize this might result in me not getting revived for a long time, but I'd rather try to do what's best for the town.)

I can't remember if this was answered anywhere before or not, but after the three are revived, are the limbo players still able to post even though they are in limbo?

[al_kohaulec]

Yos removed, since it is pointless to say I wouldn't vote him.

And alko, what? I'm not good enough for your "I wouldn't vote for" list anymore?

Hmm.. the connection with Yos is something I'll have to look into with Thoth. My main reasoning for not wanting to revive C_D is because he seemed so strongly attached to Yos, so I'll have to look at and judge Thoth on this.

unvote

for now.

[al_kohaulec]

@C_D, that is something I decided I need to look over and comment on. I'll do so as much as I can.

Mr. C, your actions are duely noted, and you will sit here in lylo until either:
a.) You start saying something other than "Revive me, Vote: Mr. Ceaser" or
b.) It's endgame, and you have an innocent result on you, so we choose to revive you to win the game.

Although b may still be unlikely if you don't start posting something about the game and other players.

[al_kohaulec]

As far as voting for oneself goes, I do expect certain players to want to be revived over others simply for role related reasons, but I'm still not going to support anybody who doesn't actually help the town in any way. If you really want to get revived that badly, you need to convince the town to revive you, you need to work for the vote, earn it. Otherwise nobody has any reason to revive you.

[al_kohaulec]

So, how about it? Anyone else willing to spin this game into a wild direction?

Note that this is merely a suggestion, and I'm not sure if it's a good one myself. But it willing to try it out.

I have thought about a Mr. C. revival, but I want him to at least contribute something before I think about voting him. I don't want to make any mistakes here.

[al_kohaulec]

...

So now why yb?

[al_kohaulec]

theman, why would you want a roleclaim? If we do get scum revived the first day, then once he's able to kill, he'll know who his biggest threats are. We don't want to have all of our power roles known to the public once their revived.

[al_kohaulec]

2. He doesn't just

want

to be revived, he

HAS

to be revived (according to him). Sounds to me like a not too subtle hint at a power role.

And this is one that I've been trying to not hint at myself, because hinting at it could create a risk. It's also why I was trying to get him to contribute and give us a reason to revive him.

[al_kohaulec]

As for the roleclaiming thing, one pro part of it is if the cop and doc are revived, and the cop can target limbo players, then we are guaranteed at least 3 investigations (I think). N1 investigate, N1 no killing is allowed. N2 investigate and doc is killed. N3 investigate, cop might be killed. However since each scum is given a specific time when they can start killing, this is dependent on both scum being revived, and being able to kill early. Also, a scum kill that early when everybody except that one scum player is claimed would show us who one of the scum are, and if we get a vig revived, then he can remove the scum when he hits the doc.

Hmm... looking at it that way, it looks like a really easy to win, the cons I see are:
a.) what's the fun in that?
b.) possible fake claims and such.

[al_kohaulec]

I don't think we'd ever get into one of those scenarios either.


Basically, for the SK to win, he would need at least one townie and one mafiate in limbo throughout the entire game. Cause otherwise it could easily result in game over, town or mafia win. If he was the only one killing, then the number of bodies he's killing off would match the number of bodies we're reviving, so he'd never make enough progress to reach the point where he was a lone survivor.

He wouldn't be able to kill until we had

at least

4 players alive, so to even get down to two alive, he'd have to kill off a player, probably the mafiate or vig (whoever's alive) and either a mafia or vig would have to kill off somebody other than the SK.


It seems near impossible for an SK to win at this game, and I really can't see one in this game. The rules in the beginning, mostly regarding win conditions, points at there being no SK.

[al_kohaulec]

I've thought about some of those too, but it simply doesn't help us to speculate that much because at that point it gets to where just about anything could happen and it really won't end up helping us.

For example, in day one of the last game I was in, one player claimed "I require two votes more than the majority to be lynched, and when I reach the normal majority to be lynched, I gain some ability, I don't know what it is though." Everybody speculated on so many different possibilities, including "He's going to be lynched and revived later in the game with a uber ability that will PWN US ALL!" This really got us nowhere, it turns out he was simply a jester. It's just an example of how when nearly anything is possible, looking at everything that's possible doesn't get us any further, and acting upon very unlikely possibilities is worse. Some people wanted to lynch him because he was scum, others to give his ability, and some were afraid to vote him at all for reasons that he could be scum who'd come back to life with insane abilities. The latter is horrible logic because if he's scum, he needs to die nonetheless, and a future revival with insane powers is unlikely, and you can't just let people live based on such unlikely events.

(Now I"m rambling, so I'll stop. That same game ended up having no mafia, 2 cults (one leader didn't know he was recruiting), 2 SKs, 1 backup SK, 1 triggered SK, 2 self-aligned players, a town aligned who lost if he died, over half a dozen useless docs and other useless roles, and a townie who had a trigger that changed what a player's alignment would show up as on death. Ya, it was a fun game.)

[al_kohaulec]

Why? Recently he just speculated about a possible SK being out there? I don't think that's a good reason, and if it's stuff that he's done a long time ago, then why are you just now getting the urge?

Please explain yourself CTD.

[al_kohaulec]

First of all, the plan mostly works if the cop

can

target limbo players. This we don't know yet for sure.

Yosarian- First, it's not 'Al's plan'; I'm fairly certain that me and TheManHimself suggested claiming first. Al just put it in a way that made it agreeable to you.

Now there's a difference in what both of us proposed. And honestly, I don't think I proposed it as much as providing an argument as to why claiming could be good.

What you two suggested is that we mass claim, and revive our power roles. Here a power role could be anything, and scum could easily fake a claim. There is no failsafe if one or more scum are revived, and you provided no viable reasoning for proposing a massclaim.

What I mentioned involves an actual plan of specific players who, if claimed, could be revived to essentially clear everybody slowly, until we win.

Second- I'm also fairly certain that you suspected both me and TheMan because we were in favor of claiming; yet now you claim Al is

less

suspicious because he 'suggested' it. That kind of favoritism and hypocrisy does not sit well with me.

See above.

Thirdly- The idea that scum don’t suggest pro-town plans is nonsense. Al-scum would be able to see that we are very unlikely to follow that plan; claiming has been suggested and rejected once already. He therefore takes the opportunity to look protown and gain a few points. What he’s actually doing is more of that echoing and agreeing with everybody which has made him suspicious to me in the past.

Like I mentioned above, there are major differences in what you two proposed, and what I mentioned. Basically it's a more elaborate and thought out method making such a plan work. Some players see it as protown because it has the potential to be a foolproof plan to ensure essentially a flawless victory against the scum. Keep in mind we don't know that it is truly foolproof, but from what we know so far, it possibly could be. You might consider it WIFOM, but scum should and would never be stupid enough to guarantee a town's success like that.

And like I said, since both plans are so fundamentally different, there's really no reason to 'not follow it' just because a similar one was rejected.


-------------------------


And anyways, there are ways to improve that plan I mentioned. I'll explain it if you guys want to hear, but as Yos points out, there are so many flaws that could occur causing it to go wrong.


I doubt some bastard things like that in a game like this, especially an insane cop, unless if we also have a sane one. But this would be why we would have to hear from everybody after a claim to see if there is a counterclaim, which would cause problems.

[al_kohaulec]

You guys are all sissys. Let's bandwagon chaotic_diablo and Mr. C and get this day over with.

You too, have fallen on to my "Not voting for" list.

I believe we'll also have a 4th person we end up reviving (actually decided on by the first three revived) before we actually enter night. I could be wrong though.

And yes, I mentioned that plan, I first mentioned it because I was looking at a way that a claim could benefit us. I was not saying we should do it at first, merely mentioning it. I am not saying we should do it though. I am fairly certain we have at least one sane cop (very doubtful of any more

sane

cops) and other than that I really don't know. Even if we had the roles we were looking for and the plan could work just how I said it, the things that could easily go wrong is a godfather that's immune to investigation, as Yos mentioned, or a fakeclaim by the mafia which would put a snag in the plan.





CDT, remember this about Mr. C. He could be hinting at being a power role. Now let's assume he is one. We revive him, but he doesn't claim, we don't know for sure. He's revived, but we probably won't have a doc. Night hits. Mafia kills Mr. C. BIG power role dead. So even if Mr. C. is protown, how do we benefit from his revival on the off chance that we do happen to also revive scum?

[al_kohaulec]

Tamuz is on my list of players I'd like to see revived, so I will

Vote: Tamuz

[al_kohaulec]

@M4yhem, I've been agreeing with what I agree with, not what's necessarily popular opinion.

I'm interested in hearing what yb has to say.

[al_kohaulec]

Now, if you find the Mr.Cesar voting suspicious, imagine how your interaction with Al_Kohaulec looks from my end. He’s one of the first to vote for you and since then you and him have been saying nothing but nice things about each other. You agree with the claiming thing when it comes from him, but not when it comes from anyone else. You’ve got a cute little mutual support club going.

I don't believe he's been saying anything nice about me, or been in favor of reviving me until after my mention on the mass claim. Before that I don't remember any mention of him wanting to revive me.

Your C_D/Thoth interaction is something I'm going to look into myself.


Yay! Questions:

1. If you had to dayvig two people right now who would it be? Give reasons.

There's only two ppl alive, so them both obv.

Ok, seriously now. Earlier in the game I would've leaned towards YB, but I'm going to have to wait more before I make more of a decision there. I was thinking he's scum before, now I think I need more information. For now the two I'd probably dayvig would be CTD and M4yhem probably. CTD has done a lot of bandwagonning and as you two say about the Mr. C votes, joking, and so he hasn't really helped us. I could see him as scum, and he's not contributing much to any discussion.

As for you, I had given you the benefit of the doubt before, but then you start attacking me and others on some very horrible logic, I still don't believe that a Mr. C was "just a joke" and even if it was, that could've started an easy bandwagon (see CTD) and didn't help us at all. You guys were posting actual reasons for wanting him revived, I don't think it was just a joke.

I've also thought about Lordy. He's helped some, but not a whole lot. He hasn't contributed much. He's been acting protown so far, but I need to see more from him.

2. If you had the power to revive two people, apart from yourself, who would they be? Give reasons.

Well, Yos is already revived, but two players still in limbo...
Hmm... C_D was probably one of my best choices earlier, but I didn't want to revive him at first due to his interaction with player's like Yos, and since then I haven't been too sure of him. I'll have to get back to you on this question after I look people over some more.

3. If you had to unvive either Yos or Tamuz, who would you pick? Give reasons.

I'm happy with both of them revived, I would like to keep them both revived if I could, but if I had to unvive one... maybe Yos. Like I said, I'd like to keep them both revived, but I've seen a lot of good insightful and helpful posting from Tamuz lately. He may not be making as many or as big posts as Yos is, but he is providing a lot of his own insight.

[al_kohaulec]

CrashTextDummie: logic deficiency, revive Mr.C? no way
yellowbounder: lack of post
Thoth: lack of posts
M4yhem: egotistic, "I'm the only good candidate for revival!"
al_kohaulec: indecisive, 5-10 pages of stuff that all ended with "screw this"
Twito: lack of posts
themanhimself: questionable claim
chaotic_diablo: jerk, screw you
lordy: not enough contribution
Mr. César: don't ask

You don't sound very happy, but most of this is pretty much the hard truth.

I'd recommend to the town choosing someone who neither Yos or I support (Mainly Yos from my perspective, but I sympathize with the town, so someone I don't support as well) so that there is a smaller chance of us losing so quickly.

Of course, I understand opposal to this reccomendation.

I'll come back and reread Pg 10 because I haven't read closely or addressed anything from this page forth.

I don't think we should go for somebody neither of you two support, a common scum tactic is to distance yourself from your allies, and if you're town, the reason you may be looking away from players you don't support is probably because you're picking up on scumtells from them.




And I'm really looking forward to more insight from Zindaras to see how I think of him now.

[al_kohaulec]

I'd rather have somebody decided upon by all of us.

[al_kohaulec]

huh, my vote was removed and I don't remember unvoting, maybe I did.

Anyways I believe the claim, Mr. C was my best choice for being cop, but I wanted to be more sure of him before reviving him, and also make sure that he would actually help us.

I'll wait until it's confirmed there are no other cop claims before reviving though. IMO the doc and RB are the best investigation targets right now, a confirmed doc can guarantee the cop's life will succeed for a while, and then the RB can stall the mafia a bit if one is alive already.

[al_kohaulec]

No, I'm waiting to make sure there are no counterclaims. Being safe FTW?

[al_kohaulec]

Lordy and CrashTextDummy are the last two that we need to hear from.

[al_kohaulec]

Actually, I have a really good plan right now, please refrain from reviving the cop until I say it (if i have time, I'll say it all in this post).


We revive the cop, we go into night.

Investigate the roleblocker, see if he's really town or not. Revive the doc, if there's a cop death, the doc is scum and needs to be lynched. Otherwise assuming we get town on the RB, we revive him next, so we'll have a living RB and a doc protecting the cop. The RB will tell us which of the two unkown revived players he chooses to target, if there's a death, the other person must be scum. If there's no death, either we have no scum revived, they chose not to kill, or we blocked the one that is scum. This should prevent...

[al_kohaulec]

...still don't have much time.

I think most of the main idea is out there, if I didn't explain the reasoning enough, some thought should be able to figure it out.

As for revivals after the RB and Doc, I would suggest investigating somebody other than M4yhem, he has started looking better in my eyes since the game first started, but if a godfather exists, he is my prime suspect for being a godfather.

For obvious reasons (cause they'll be who we want to revive), I think we should investigate players we think to be protown, to prove they're protown before we revive them, I believe we mentioned this before. I know Zindaras thinks I'm untrustworthy, but since I don't need to be alive to win, I don't mind not being investigated and not being revived. I say we should try to investigate most likely protownies in limbo because it's when we investigate a mafiate that deciding who to revive could get complicated.

I think that's most of what I needed to say, now I'll wait for the other two players to check in, and see what everybody's thoughts are on most of this.

[al_kohaulec]

Yay, the first response to my plan.

Al- So now you want to be safe, but you didn't mind rushing to revive Yos, even though I urged caution? And Crash has already voted. TheManHimself won't counterclaim unless he's crazy, so lordy is all we need.

Crash has already voted, but he never said anything since his claim. So his vote is meaningless in regards to whether Crash could be cop or not. I doubt Crash being cop, but I want to be sure.

Actually, I have a really good plan right now, please refrain from reviving the cop until I say it (if i have time, I'll say it all in this post).


We revive the cop, we go into night.

Investigate the roleblocker, see if he's really town or not. Revive the doc, if there's a cop death, the doc is scum and needs to be lynched. Otherwise assuming we get town on the RB, we revive him next, so we'll have a living RB and a doc protecting the cop. The RB will tell us which of the two unkown revived players he chooses to target, if there's a death, the other person must be scum. If there's no death, either we have no scum revived, they chose not to kill, or we blocked the one that is scum. This should prevent...

I don’t get it. Why not just investigate Twito, if we plan to revive him first? I’d rather lose the doc early than the cop. And you forget that the scum get enabled to kill at different times, so being blocked once doesn’t tell us much, even if there is no kill.

This is why I want feedback on the whole plan. I'm assuming that if he's our only doctor claim, he is more than likely the true doctor. I don't see him being scum and then killing off our cop as a viable possibility, but I like looking at everything that's possible, and should the cop die when the doc is revived, the only possible reason I can think of short of the doctor is scum is there's a revived mafia roleblocker.

Then we'll also have a heads up on who we're going to be reviving. N1, we investigate playerA. D1 or 2 or whatever, we revive Twito. N2 we investigate playerB. Now when we have an option to revive somebody, we have two innocents to choose from. Should we end up to the point where we investigate a scum. Obv we won't want to revive him, but we'll still have one townie investigation to revive. Continuing through investigations, if we find a second scum, then we know two players we don't want to revive, and the last scum will just be guesswork on who we want to revive, if he hasn't already been revived.

As for the roleblocker, I believe I posted 3 different possible cases for the roleblocker. we won't know if scum can kill on N2 or later, but we know they can't kill on N1. But we'll have two players alive that we aren't sure of the alignment on, but we will know that at least one of them is guaranteed town (otherwise we would've lost by D1). If we block one of the players, and there is a kill on somebody, then the other player is our scum. If there's no kill, we still don't know anything more about whether they're scum or not, but I don't think there's any other townie roles we'll need to be using beyond the RB, cop, and doc, so a block on them won't hurt. It will be playing it safe.

. I would suggest investigating somebody other than M4yhem, he has started looking better in my eyes since the game first started, but if a godfather exists, he is my prime suspect for being a godfather.

For obvious reasons (cause they'll be who we want to revive), I think we should investigate players we think to be protown, to prove they're protown before we revive them, I believe we mentioned this before. I know Zindaras thinks I'm untrustworthy, but since I don't need to be alive to win, I don't mind not being investigated and not being revived. I say we should try to investigate most likely protownies in limbo because it's when we investigate a mafiate that deciding who to revive could get complicated.

Yeah, cause if I was godfather, I would totally bring it up when no one else had mentioned it. I’m glad you underestimate my intelligence so greatly; if you are scum, it makes it that much easier for me to beat you.
And you don’t want to be investigated yourself? Not a miller by any chance, are you? Oooo, suspicious.

I don't remember who brought it up at first, but that's besides the point. I don't see how that underestimates anybody's intelligence, you're just overreacting there. I don't care if I'm investigated or not, but since Zindie is the cop, we need to investigate who we think is most likely to be pro town, and Zindie doesn't trust me, I'm not one of his better options. If I was a miller, I'd still be protown, so that's besides the point. But no, I'm not a miller. If I get investigated as scum, I won't get revived, if I don't get investigated, I shouldn't be revived as long as there's a townie result, which should be the case almost every day.

It would probably be best if any millers claimed now beforehand, so it won't come to any surprise later.

[al_kohaulec]

Since everybody is suggesting plans, I’d like to suggest TheManHimself is investigated tonight, and that he then blocks Yosarian for all eternity.

(shrug) Well, it's be better to revive the doc first, because that should ensure the cop stays alive for a while at least, while a roleblocker would only have a chance at stopping any kill. But once the roleblocker is revived, sure, I'd expect him to block either me or Tamuz.

I think I mentiond reviving the doc first, but not investigating right away. Yes it'd be taking a risk, but if he's the only doc claim, I was thinking it might be a risk worth taking, but that's my opinion, and why I wanted input first. Zindaras seems to have his own plan, and although his play seems much different then I'm used to, I'm sort of suspicious of it, but the cop claim is the only thing that makes me still agree with him. I'll be ready to vote and let the three revived players do their thing as soon as our last two players check in.

[al_kohaulec]

yay, day.

Ok, so now that N1 has passed, the mafia can gain the ability to kill any night.

So two options I see are either:
a.) Revive Sherlock, our roleblocker, and he proceeds to block either Yos or Tamuz. Or
b.) Revive Twito, assuming he's the doctor, and have him protect our cop while we look into reviving Sherlock tomorrow.

[al_kohaulec]

I'm curious as to why specifically.

And if that's the case, then I see the only option being reviving the roleblocker. Well, not the only option, but the best one. I like it better because he's guaranteed innocent, but I like the doctor idea just for added protection, but it's going a bit on faith.

[al_kohaulec]

Ah, the situation in which he claimed to me sounded like it was in the town's best interests as he could protect you, but I can see how a godfather would like to claim doc, especially if it was given as a safe claim. I see your point.

So ya, I'm for the revival of our RB.

[al_kohaulec]

any other cops should've claimed before we revived Zindie. Reason being if there are other cops out there, then that greatly complicates this whole plan and everything.

M4yhem, why did you wait until

after

Zindie was revived to ask him all of those questions?

[al_kohaulec]

Alko, they may not have been equally relevant when he didn't have a result that the game may or may not rely on.

Maybe, but I wanna hear his reasons.

[al_kohaulec]

Yes, but there was reason for that.

The RB claim was in the very beginning, with no reason to claim it. The doc claim came shortly after a cop claim, because having a doc/cop duo revived appeared to be a very good option.

I do disagree with Twito's point about the godfather, but I don't agree with the validity of Zind's last statement either.

anyways....
/awaits Sherlock.

[al_kohaulec]

My thoughts rigth now on those in limbo,

Lordy - his few posts looked like they were helping town, but he really hasn't posted enough to get a good read on him. He hasn't shown anything to really push him far enough into being town.

Sherlock - obv I believe him now and am for him being revived.

Twito - I believe the doc claim, a godfather is possible, but I doubt it. I just don't see it as that likely, I believe and trust him to be town.

chaotic_Diablo - Started out looking protown, and after a while I started becoming more distrustful of him. I'm not sure where I stand now, but he might be a good candidate for revival.

M4yhem, I still don't approve of a M4yhem investigation, for fear of a possible godfather. I would otherwise approve of one, but he's my best choice for godfather so I'd rather not.

Thoth - I'm liking Thoth, he's seeming pretty protown, I would be for an investigation of him.

StallingChamp - I was getting scum vibes from YB in the beginning of the game, I don't have much from SC yet, but for now I'd steer clear of him too.

CTD - I'm not liking CTD, I've been getting some scummy vibes from him, I'd rather steer away from him.

alko - I don't have anything against being investigated, it would result in my revival, but from Zindie's point of view I wouldn't be the best choice. Since we only need one more townie to be revived if our three current players and the RB are town, I would be in favor of me being revived.

[al_kohaulec]

I have a couple of questions for a couple of people:
Zindaras - Which role do you deem more useful for the town in general and in this particular situation: doc or roleblocker? Don't be shy to provide some reasons.

Roleblocker. Let's assume we have revived a Mafiate here (if we haven't, it's irrelevant and both are equal). If we revive the doc, we get one free night, because scum will hit the doc first. If we revive the roleblocker, we have a 50% chance of continually roleblocking the scum. We also have a 50% chance to lose the cop outright. A doc is only a temporary help. A roleblocker is permanent.

This is assuming we have revived scum.

Now under this assumption, we revive the RB and there's a 50% chance that you die. We may know who scum is, but that won't do us a lot of good if we can't lynch him. If we revived the doc, then even if the doc would die first, we will know for sure that scum is alive, and we won't be risking your life w/o knowing if we have scum or not.

The RB isn't any more permament in the sense that he can die, just like the cop can. He would have to block the correct player, assuming we have scum, and also if he fails, there's a greater chance that you would die, rather than the player (RB or doc) who's trying to help protect you.

Alky- Any particular reason you persist in believing me to be a godfather? From my point of view, it seems like you’re trying to make sure I won’t be revived even if I’m found to be innocent; perhaps because you know I would never vote for you or your scumbuddies? If you are interested in the truth, take a look at speed mafia, where I actually was a godfather. Note how I never mention the role, even when another player suggests a heavily cop-reliant plan.

Bad Karma: Al_Kohaulec

I believe you are more likely town than godfather, but if anybody in this game is the godfather, you are my best guess.

You shouldn't be so whiney about me not wanting you revived. I mean, if you're town, then you shouldn't care that much because you can still win with only one or two more townie revivals (after this one).

[al_kohaulec]

Now under this assumption, we revive the RB and there's a 50% chance that you die. We may know who scum is, but that won't do us a lot of good if we can't lynch him. If we revived the doc, then even if the doc would die first, we will know for sure that scum is alive, and we won't be risking your life w/o knowing if we have scum or not.

The RB isn't any more permament in the sense that he can die, just like the cop can. He would have to block the correct player, assuming we have scum, and also if he fails, there's a greater chance that you would die, rather than the player (RB or doc) who's trying to help protect you.

If the RB roleblocks the wrong one, we know who scum is, which is a pretty large advantage. Yes, we lose the Cop, but we also learn the Cop's sanity and thus know to what extent we can trust his results.

Reviving the RB is a win/win more situation. If he picks the wrong guy, we know who scum is and can RB him, finding more townies on the back of normal play. If he picks the right guy, we still have the Cop running around.

We really shouldn't focus on the Cop as be all and end all. We should have faith in our own town-catching abilities.

We do need to focus on our town-catching abilities, and we're still working on that, but I still don't see how this makes it universally better than the doc. If the doc dies, we know the existence of a mafiate still, although not necessarily which one. It will keep the cop alive for one more day, and possibly longer if we can get the RB to block the right person (assuming we revive him next).

As for sanity, that depends on wether or not your sanity is revealed on death, not all games do that. However this game probably would, but if the mafia knew something was up with your sanity, I doubt they'd kill you for it.

[al_kohaulec]

At this stage in would be really nice to hear from the man himself, i.e. Sherlock. But since he’s nonresponsive, let’s talk amongst ourselves some more.

It seems to me like this is a two horse race today. It would be a bit mad to ignore both power roles and revive some unclaimed/vanilla guy instead. So the question becomes, Sherlock or Twito?

Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

Plus, I’m awesome.

LAL

If the cop were to die, we could actually clear two people; whoever the blocker blocked, and the roleblocker themselves. Then we just have the roleblocker block the bad guy forever, and use our wits to work out who the scumbuddies are. Sounds like a winning situation to me. I suggest that if Sherlock is revived, he gives us the name of the person he plans to block, so that the information doesn’t die with him in the event of his death.

This would be a good way to clear two people, and confirm the third as scum. But everybody is assuming that:
a.) The cop will be killed
b.) There is one scum alive
c.) The RB will choose the wrong person to block

If it works out, then that's good, but there's so many variables, and I see many other possibilities occuring.


And I would like to hear from Twito and Sherlock, as they are the two up for revival, their thoughts on what they think is the best play for today and tomorrow in regards to who to revive, why, and how they think we should be setting up our nights.

[al_kohaulec]

w00t!

[al_kohaulec]

Vote: alko

for revival.