Mini 291: Clue Mafia.....Game Over!

[Fuldu]

For the record, I presumed that that was MeMe's reason for voting you even before it was expounded upon, Flay. Add to that the BJ vote without a stated reason (or, at least, a reason solely justified by my favorite scumtell, the eyeroll smiley), followed by a complaint about votes without stated reasons, and I'm ready to vote for you.

So here's the thing, and I've said this before, though not to you. Posts that provide the appearance of contribution to the game without actually providing any actual value are a fair scumtell. It's just an elaborate/covert form of lurking, but one that's done deliberately rather than through apathy, meaning it's actually more likely to indicate scum than standard lurking would be. Joke posts are one type of "appearance of contribution" post, and in the early game when there's little else to go on, they seem a perfectly reasonable place to start.

[Fuldu]

So now you can read MeMe's mind? Interesting.

No, but I've played with her enough to know that she doesn't feel a need to throw votes around in the early game simply to have a vote out and also to get a feel for for what reasons she might place a vote.

And in the early game where half of our players had yet to post, you considered that a sufficient "tell" to threaten me with another vote? I'm not convinced, but then I wouldn't be, since the bandwagon's on me.

To "threaten"? Yes. But clearly not enough to actually do it.

A non-verbalized reason is as good as a non-existent reason for purposes of the game. If it's not said, it can't be acted on, verified, or disproven. Now THAT is a scum tell; but elvis still started this party.

But, again, you weren't any better about stating your reason for voting BJ than Elvis or MeMe were about theirs. And once you did finally give a reason, it looks a lot weaker than theirs do.

[Fuldu]

Ummm, Fuldu, I referenced the exact reason I was voting for BJ (his tendency to run someone up Day One). It was a little obscure, I'll grant you, but both elvis and MeMe gave

plain, unreasoned votes

. Why are you saying they were equivalent?

You referenced the exact reason with a sarcastic comment regarding the fact that somebody has to die. Yes, I think I'd call that equivalent to having not said anything at all.

[Fuldu]

Yes, kops, this is pretty standard for BabyJesus. Even mind-numbingly stupid stuff like this:

I'm pretty sure we're going to need the vig to deal with out kops problem tonight....

...is fairly typical behavior.

[Fuldu]

My only concern about avoiding the secret passage rooms is that we'll quickly eliminate the non-secret passage rooms as available locations and force people into the arguably more dangerous secret passage rooms in the endgame.

[Fuldu]

Finish reading before you post, BJ. Flay already answered that question.

Obviously "talk" (quotes mine) was an analogy for the fact that I feel I can prove my role/innocence by being in the room with at least one other person tonight.

I think he overestimates the "obviously" part of that sentence, given that two people asked about it, but his explanation is a reasonable one.

[Fuldu]

You missed the point where you were claimed to be a mafia or SK.

wait a sec, did we even have a night phase yet? I thought we started with day...

confirm vote: Tamuz

for using false pretenses to bandwagon hop...

As far as I can tell, that was just Tamuz being an ass, not suggesting that anybody had ever claimed they had an investigative result. He thinks you're scum and is becoming increasingly loud about it without anything I've seen even approaching the vicinity of an argument.

[Fuldu]

Urggh. As much as it pains me, I'm going to have to side with BabyJesus in this particular instance. kops isn't contributing much to the conversation and the ebb and flow of his suspicions of both BJ and TSAGod seem like reactions to increased attention on him. And maybe a little bit just me not wanting to have to read his tortured prose any more.

vote: kops

[Fuldu]

I'm not sure MafiaScum has a default time, does it?

Orbiting: Is Tamuz listed first because he reached 3 votes first? What happens in case of a tie?

If you haven't actively set a Mafiascum time, it defaults to GMT, so midnight GMT at the end of 3/22 is 7PM EST.

[Fuldu]

Further deadline information:
Sorry, I didn't realize you could change your times -- I suppose that when I set up my account either you couldn't do that, or I didn't. Fuldu's estimation of 7 p.m. EST on the 23rd is correct.

By my actual estimation, yes, the deadline has passed. However, since Orbiting's final word on the subject gave us an additional 24 hours, I'm going to assume that we have that time. Personally, I'd prefer to see Tamuz lynched over TSAGod (and kops lynched over Tamuz, but nobody seems to be paying any attention to that).

[Fuldu]

Looking back, kops doesn't look THAT bad to me. His random on MeMe was really trying to make sure we all understood it was random, which made me suspicious and still does. The thing that makes me think he's not scum is that as I read through his posts they sound like a stream of consciousness, not like an evilly-crafted attempt at manipulation and deception.

Anyway,Fuldu, please tell me why you want kops dead...

Well, a new player is (tautologically) more likely to make new player mistakes. For someone who's scum for the first time, these include overemphasizing that the reason for a vote is something small or silly, and backing away from a placed vote as soon as someone questions it. In kops case, he did these things with regards to votes on MeMe and on BJ and TSAGod, respectively. So there's that and then the fact that his posts make my eyes bleed.

[Fuldu]

i take it we just started then? fun randomvote: MeMe... yes that was truly random... okeydokey

The point is not that it was a random vote, but that you're so insistent that it's a random vote. That usually means one of two things, either you're a power role who's trying to hide information against someone under the guise of a random vote, or you're scum who's hoping a bandwagon will form on the person you've chosen that you can later distance yourself from by saying "but, see, it was just a random vote." Since you haven't returned to MeMe since then, the first explanation seems unlikely. And since MeMe's the player in this game that, were I scum, I'd be most looking to get rid of, the second explanation doesn't seem far-fetched.

eh? what do you call this?

let's just finish off flay....

id say thats pretty bandwagon pushingish...
honestly though guys.. can we please pick up the conversation a bit... this is really starting to drag a bit.. BJ is the biggest offender, not having posted in 3 days, im gonna pressure vote him soon if he doesnt post, MeMe also needs to post soon..
i think the main issue right now is who to lynch... we dont have much to go on right now but i think we can mostly agree to let Flay and elvis do their stuff tonight, so i think theyre both lynch-immune today for the most part
honestly, im not too full of ideas right now.. nobody stands out in my mind though atm, anybody else have any ideas?

ok... first of all.. from what ive heard... didnt bj just do the

opposite

of what he usually does (as in jump off a bandwagon to someone with no votes)??? as i said, ive never seen him in a game before, but am i right here? seems kind of odd.. wont say its a scum tell for sure but definately worth nothing
second of all, @bj: i would appreicate a bit more of a reason as to why you voted me...

I'll admit that I was mistaken in that I thought there was a vote in there somewhere, but the tone of all this is one of accusation followed by indifference followed by accusation followed by indifference. That you able to fit all that in such a short span is actually impressive, but it doesn't look good.

again though, right now im not 100% sure who i should be voting for, but i think im gonna go with a

vote: TSAGod

because so far hes posted exactly twice.. once to vote me (although i do not hold that against him as it was the 2nd post of the game) and once to give us a list of characters....
im voting him for two reasons: a) lurker-pressure, b) im getting a bit of a bad vibe from him as he has contributed nothing to the discussion and has offered none of his own opinions
and WOW! i was just reading back to make sure i didnt miss one of his posts... and guess what... he never unvoted me! either he has some weird rule about his vote not counting or the mod messed up

mod can we clear this up please

, he was completely left off the first count (not on the voting list or the not voting list) but i think this is due to a look over by the mod... either way he is still voting me from a page one random vote and that will definately hold my vote till he posts more

well, i guess like every1 else, i dont have too much to say, 'cept that im checking in and i still think we should at least pressure TSAGod to post some more, and i still think its kinda wierd he's still voting me from page 2 with no reason whatsoever, but as it doesnt really matter at this point i guess its not too big of a deal but still...

ok, first of all, @TSAGod... i wasnt concerned about the vote, in fact if you actually bothered to read my posts... you would have noticed that i actually said:

but as [the vote] doesnt really matter at this point i guess its not too big of a deal but still

not only that, but you called my vote an OMGUS... notice how i also said:

vote: TSAGod because so far hes posted exactly twice.. once to vote me (

although i do not hold that against him as it was the 2nd post of the game

) and once to give us a list of characters....

(italics by me) i was far more worried about the fact that you were still holding you random vote with no reason whatsoever than the fact that the vote was aimed at me
you

completely

twisted my words around to form the most crappiest logic ever... and in case it isnt obvious

reinforce vote TSAGod

sorry fixed quote tags (btw if you were wondering i accidently put the 723 cause that was my old sn that i still use on several places, but i dropped it now)

tamuz... in my opinion that last was really scummy, youre on the chopping block, we need a full claim right now or i'm lynching (although youre good as dead either way at that point).. making a statement like that is getting you absolutely nowhere and in my opinion thats one of the scummiest things you've said so far, if your next post doesnt have a full claim or a

really

good reason why you wont full claim, then im gonna lynch, and if you havent posted before 6:00 CST tomorrow ill lynch you anyway.
b4.. i didnt see you as all that scummy, but you just sent my scumdar through the roof

3) TSAGod, this one is the worst example out of the three. I have yet to back away from my vote on TSAGod, and at the moment I don't plan on it any time soon.

Similarly, the above is aggessive, passive, aggressive, aggressive about somebody else entirely, and finally insistent that you've been aggressive about TSAGod all along. This sort of behavior is, at best, bad play. But since it's coming from a relatively new player I'm inclined to believe that you're inexperienced scum.

[Fuldu]

I'd like to hear from Flay regarding whatever he intended to do with elvis_knits. Assuming I'm satisfied with his explanation, I plan on returning my vote to kops.

[Fuldu]

I don't know about Flay's explanation. He seemed awfully convinced that he was going to be able to prove himself, but his role doesn't seem to justify that level of confidence.

[Fuldu]

Of course I don't expect a doc to come out and say they protected me, so my position does look pretty tenuous today.

Wait a minute...

Flay... if a doc protected you last night, shouldn't you have seen them in the conservatory??

You should KNOW if you were protected last night, or not, I think.

That assumes that a player has to be in the same room as their target in order to use their role, which seems a pretty strong burden early in the game.

[Fuldu]

Unfortunately from the way it's worded I can't tell if anything is done *to* people in the room

I'm taking the "from the way it's worded" bit to mean that he can't tell whether he can tell if anything is done to people in the room, but whether he doesn't know or knows he can't, I would presume Flay can only see actions initiated in the room he's in.

[Fuldu]

Errr, done in the room WITH me, whoever they're done too (I can't figure out how a doc would protect someone in another room, either, but...)

Don't think too hard on making the roles seem realistic. Frankly, the standard doctor role doesn't make much sense in any game.

Also, unless you're relying on something in addition to your role as you've described it, I'd already thought of the all-in-one-room strategy and it doesn't work. Assuming scum can kill from a different room, they

say

they went to the same room as everyone else, make their kill, and then say you didn't see them in the room because they didn't have an action.

[Fuldu]

Very simply put, we don't know how mafia kills work, but the mafia presumably do. They are far more likely to learn something about why (and the associated who) there wasn't a kill last night than we are. I see a much greater likelihood of mafia gleaning a useful target from the room claim than us learning much of anything.

[Fuldu]

Good point... that was kinda a stupid question...

Not really. All he claimed was that he forgot to submit a room choice. If someone with a role choice forgot about the room mechanic and just didn't include it, the same thing could have happened. And for that matter, scum who weren't the one submitting the group's night choice could have done exactly the same thing as a vanilla townie.

I don't trust BJ's "Well, I guess I claimed vanilla townie out of nowhere" approach to talking about his room choice. There was no reason for him to claim at this stage. And if there was no reason to claim, there was no reason for him to talk about missing a room choice with the expectation that it was going to result in his claim. It looks like a gambit to me. So, secure in the knowledge that BJ's next post will be to the effect of "Hey, it looks like I caught me some scum,"

vote: Baby Jesus

[Fuldu]

How does kops plan allow us to confirm Flay without revealing the doc? What does Flay say tomorrow? "Yes, I saw someone take an action last night, but I'm not going to say who because they're probably the doctor. But now you believe my claim, right?"

I think having Flay indicate which room he visited the preceding night and whether or not he saw someone take an action is the best way to start. Then, if someone with an action was in the room, they'll be in a position to contradict him, where appropriate. It'll take longer and we'll run the risk of having him in a room with no one with a night choice, but it also increases the likelihood that he sees scum do something. Eventually we'll be able to confirm him or decide that there's insufficient evidence to back his claim. But he's far more useful to us if everything isn't planned out than if we (and scum) know exactly where he's going to be and how to avoid him.

[Fuldu]

That is a good point, Fuldu, but I think it boils down to the pros and cons of each course of action.
If Flay reveals his room choice:
pros: 1)I'm guessing the doc has to know which room he's sending his protect to even if he isn't there himself so Flay will live.
2) We can probably protect at least 1-2 other townies by having them go to the same room as Flay... although that would be difficult to organize unless there's somebody we want to send specifically (and giving him a chance to clear himself which is definately good).
3) Scum have a lower chance of finding

other

townies b/c there's a lower townie:available room ratio

Cons: 1) scum know where to go to avoid being caught...

Unless I'm missing some cons here, it seems to me the pros outweigh the con(s?). Well I think it's at least something we need to decide before anyone is lynched, BJ or otherwise.

Well, kops, you're making a lot of assumptions about the doc mechanic in this game.

[Fuldu]

True, I might be... but I think it's fairly reasonable to assume same-room protect based on our apparent cop mechanic (and I doubt Flay would have just randomly picked that method of investigation if he does turn out to be lying... he must have had some basis due to how the scum kill, although I do highly doubt he's lying anyway doubt)
But anyway, even if the doc sends a name to protect... Flay still lives, so unless you see another possible doc mechanic, I don't see why it matters.

Games aren't won by having the doc successfully protect a non-cop investigative role so that he can get indeterminate results on most everyone. Games are won by having the non-cop investigative role find scum. Flay can't even confirm an innocent unless they're a power role, and confirming them requires outing them. And eventually he's going to run out of power roles to confirm without having found any scum, while in the meantime either he or they are picked off by scum. That's not a useful long-term strategy, and I don't even really see it as a useful short-term strategy.

[Fuldu]

I feel like I've been over potential downsides to revealing rooms already. So here's a new one. Anybody who admits to being in the Conservatory with Flay is almost certainly neither doc nor cop. That narrows scum's search for those roles rather sharply from the very beginning.

[Fuldu]

The advantages seem to outweigh the disadvantages?! Has anyone suggested a single advantage to indicating where we went last night that isn't some variation on "maybe after a couple days there will be a pattern that we can piece together"? As compared to 1) making it easier for scum to find the doc and cop; 2) helping scum figure out why their kill didn't go through last night; and 3) drawing attention away from actual discussion of who has behaved scummily and should be lynched.

[Fuldu]

So... you're voting me because you agree with the thing that I'm saying?

Yes, that's exactly what she's doing. Let me just find your post where you point out that your contributions thus far have been lackluster and unhelpful...

...


...


...


Hmm..., well I don't see it, but it must be there somewhere. After all, that's MeMe's very clearly stated reason for voting for you, so if you hadn't posted something like that at some point, your most recent post would be almost mind-bogglingly obtuse.

[Fuldu]

Who confirmed you, BJ? I don't remember anything like that, and I'm fairly sure I'd have removed my vote if I'd seen it.

[Fuldu]

Well, I'm willing to believe the doc claim for now and we can perhaps test it tonight with Mr Flay.

I feel like I've done this already, but how are we going to test it with Mr. Flay without having Flay (and in consequence, the claimed doc) indicate which room they're going to be in?