Chuck Season 1 - GAME OVER

[Mastermind of Sin]

Original Roll String: 1d13

1 13-Sided Dice: (13) = 13

*previews*

Damnit, no more dice tags!? What has this world come to?

Random.org Result: 13

Vote: MarchHare

[Mastermind of Sin]

Spoiler: Spoilered for Great Justice

I have seen most (some holes here and there)

IIRC in season 1 Fulcrum was the main story arc, intersect was still at version 1 (no kung fu chuck ), Anna was part of the nerd heard, and...was there that weird assistants manager guy, or was he later? I think he was later >_>

I like how the mod spoilered this post but forgot to spoiler the post below it that quoted the entire spoiler... -_-

[Mastermind of Sin]

In other news, HAI MBF!!!!! *waves*

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm gonna sit and watch for a while... *gets out popcorn*

[Mastermind of Sin]

D) What reason do we have to believe you that my WA™ 3000's broken?

WA 3000 = WAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWA...

All I hear is you crying.

You may have been here longer than Ythan but you clearly haven't read much ReaperCharlie. That post looks fairly typical of him to me. (Not intended as a slight, RC.)

Spy high five!

In other news, you kids need to chill out. I go to sleep, and I wake up with a prod from the mod. What's up with that? Can't a guy take a nap without getting prodded these days? I wasn't gone for *that* long...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Perhaps if you guys didn't spam up the topic so much, it would be worth MoS's time.

This.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MarchHare. Alliance w/me in this game? Yes/No.

MoS is also invited. mikeburnfire and Thor are not.

Personally, I'd rather be in an alliance with MBF and CDB.

a) They're awesome
b) All of our names are abbreviated with 3 letters

Sorry, but you don't qualify for either of those precepts.

Mmm, this is fun. Words taste like peaches!

/out.

MoS: 2, RC: 0

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mastermind of Sin

: Null
#93 Almost 100 pages in and has to get his "random" vote in.
In quotes because I believe he is keeping his cards close.
I guess we are not worth his time

If there is one thing that is a pet peeve of mine, it's people reading something into a random vote as if it was anything but a random vote. Don't make me hate you forever.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's why it's a random vote...they aren't supposed to be helpful, or they wouldn't be random.

[Mastermind of Sin]

but but, MOS isnt even trying. March Hare is looking for scum. How's march scummier?

I'm really not liking MoS and MBF excusing their inactivity, by saying there's too much fluff. My current guess for the scumteam is them + dana.

I didn't say anything about fluff...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mastermind, you're wrong. The RVS is where people generally prod one another and a random wagon comes up. then we may get some reads and some serious discussion is born out of it. Your vote is actually random whereas during the RVS they may be dumb reasons or mostly nonexistant but only semi random. If you let us know its random it diminishes its point even further. Given you did this after people had said noteworthy things is quite scummy. You have also so far managed to post no game related content. Why do you not want to comment on anything that's happened?

@Dana: MoS is definitely an active lurker. Any reason you're not concerned with him?

I don't generally bother to read the thread before making a random vote. What would be the point in that?

[Mastermind of Sin]

but even after your random vote you have nothing relevant to say. This is pretty close,

Perhaps if you guys didn't spam up the topic so much, it would be worth MoS's time.

This.

When I see something worth commenting on I will.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hmm, was a bit suspicious of CDB's confirm vote on Peregrine, but I like the way he explained himself. I'm willing to see what Peregrine does when the discussion turns his way.

Unvote, Vote: PeregrineV

[Mastermind of Sin]

but but, MOS isnt even trying. March Hare is looking for scum. How's march scummier?

I'm really not liking MoS and MBF excusing their inactivity, by saying there's too much fluff. My current guess for the scumteam is them + dana.

I didn't say anything about fluff...

*goes to get a quote but EP totally was on the ball*

but even after your random vote you have nothing relevant to say. This is pretty close,

Perhaps if you guys didn't spam up the topic so much, it would be worth MoS's time.

This.

That doesn't say anything about the contents of said spam, does it?

In other news, you kids need to chill out. I go to sleep, and I wake up with a prod from the mod. What's up with that? Can't a guy take a nap without getting prodded these days? I wasn't gone for *that* long...

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS - that's pretty weak. How about you just comment on more things and then we won't think you believe they are fluff. Huzzah!

Huh?

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS;

MikeyBurningfire - Perhaps if you guys didn't spam up the topic so much, it would be worth MoS's time.
MoS - This
Energetic Penguin - I don't like how MoS uses the fluff in the thread to excuse his lack of participation.
MoS - I didn't say anything about fluff.
Ant - quotes above exchange.
MoS - ::insert weak as hell exchange wherein he basically says there's a difference between spam and fluff.

Let's break it down, even if there's a difference between spam and fluff (and I'll accept there is) What you're now claiming is that there's a lot of *content* and it's making it hard for you to comment - which makes you look worse. Not better.
So comment on the content, and make me happy, or admit it's fluff and respond to EP's accusation.
Or keep ducking and weaving, I suppose.

Lol, my point is that there is stuff going on in the game (not just fluff, although there has been plenty of that), and that you people post too fast, which is why I was annoyed I got prodded. It has nothing to do with whether or not the posts are fluff or content, merely the speed at which they pile up.

I have commented on all the content I feel strongly about. If you have something specific you feel needs to be addressed, feel free to ask me questions instead of just joining the generic rampaging that's been going on for several pages now. Until then I'm just going to sit here and continue to comment when I feel it's necessary.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS - How do you define active lurk, do you feel it is scummy, and how do you feel your play differs from active lurk (if at all)?

I would define active lurking as the attempt to appear to be contributing without actively contributing anything. It is often a tactic employed by scum.

As for my play, I'm going to turn that question back on you, as I feel your answer will reveal a lot about your alignment. Do you feel I have been active lurking?

I'm against the alliance pretty much just because.

This is the attitude that kills towns. That's like saying you're against Mass-claim. Did you even read my post?

Only naive/inexperienced players think that Mass claim is an innately positive thing for the town. There are many times where Mass claim is very detrimental to the town. I would reference an example for you but it's an ongoing game still and I cba to go search the archives cuz none of the games I've played in are in the normal forums anymore.

[Mastermind of Sin]

As for my play, I'm going to turn that question back on you, as I feel your answer will reveal a lot about your alignment. Do you feel I have been active lurking?

I feel your scumhunting has been exceedingly limited and laid back. I'm attempting to discern if it's because;
a) You're scum hoping not to offend and be obligated to take stances.
b) Town who suxx0rs.
I do find the lack of participation and active scumhunting to be anti-town, and find that paired with backhanded dismissal of people for being 'too active' to be scummy.

So...you don't think I was active lurking?

[Mastermind of Sin]

So...you don't think I was active lurking?

By my definition - yes.
By your definition - no.

Correct answer. +1 Townie point for Thor! Let's go grab sandwiches together and have a party. Whoo!

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's a safe bet, RC.

In other news, I just looked at the player list and was surprised to see someone I did not even realize was playing this game. Then I went back and looked at his posts, and I saw my definition of active lurking.

Unvote, Vote: animorpherv1

Stop pretending to contribute!

[Mastermind of Sin]

PerigrineV - Slight scumread. I felt a general overall lack of content in his posts, but scummier than that is his townread on Energetic (#328 was just after EP voted dana; in this post, Perigrine doesn't fully agree with RC's case on dana, but thinks EP is reasonable; there's some cognitive dissonance going on there)

Energetic Penguin - Scumread. Largely nonexistant. Largely pointless posts. This'd be a different read on a newbie, but not on someone who's been here for 18 months.

I'm not sure how I feel about these two reads. While I generally disagree with a lot of their content so far (obviously), they have been spending a lot of time trying to get me to die/contribute. Do you believe their attacks on me were pointless/lacking content?

Liking my vote where it is for pressure, but less sure about it since it was originally predicated on the actions of someone who just got replaced for the very reason I voted them. :/ Still, I want to see how Magua reacts to this line of questioning.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Now, your turn. Why are you defending Peregrine when (previous to #410) he was who your vote was on?

I have no particular affinity towards Peregrine, but my vote *is* on you, and I wanted you to further explain your suspicions.

Liking my vote where it is for pressure, but less sure about it since it was originally predicated on the actions of someone who just got replaced for the very reason I voted them. :/ Still, I want to see how Magua reacts to this line of questioning.

1. If you say your vote is for pressure, there'll be no pressure.
2. A single vote is no pressure.
3. Pressure votes the day before deadline are dumb and scummy.

*shrug* Just explaining where my thought processes are at. Transparency is generally a good thing, except in specific gambit situations. I wasn't trying to trap you, just wanted further explanation. Still, I approve of the way you handled it, so

unvote

.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hmm...Ragnarokio, where are you? Deadline is coming up, and you have been sitting with the same vote on Thor for almost a week now, which you placed with the reasoning "Cool." I may hate everything Thor has stood for this game, but in general I get a townie read from him, as he seems to be trying to scumhunt at least.

Most of your posts this game have been pointless one-liners, and looking back, the only real contribution you've had on this game has been to defend MarchHare. Why is that the most important thing you see in this game? There isn't anything particularly townie about MarchHare, although one could potentially make the argument that his actions are a null tell at best. Still, it's pretty much the only thing you've focused on all game, and that looks fairly suspicious.

Vote: Ragnarokio, FoS: MarchHare

@Mod: Deadline extension please?

We're finally getting somewhere productive. Also, two-week deadlines are kinda ridiculous. No one in their right minds considers that a reasonable amount of time to decide on a lynch.

[Mastermind of Sin]

In other news...

Original Roll String: 1d13

1 13-Sided Dice: (12) = 12

So. Much. Win.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not only is your vote OMGUS (in defense of your own wagon, and your reasons are stated as such), but your play also differs for two reasons:

1) You haven't been spending your whole game defending another player (ie MarchHare) whose play hasn't been particularly obvtownie

2) I sense a kindred spirit in you this game, in that neither of us feel particularly compelled to play differently than what is comfortable for us just because people tell us to do otherwise. I appreciate that you do not feel the need to apologize for your style of play. This situation does not exist for Ragnarokio. Not saying that he's doing the opposite, but whereas this point is a slight town tell for you, the lack of such is a null tell for him.

Stupid hydra accounts.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ragnarokio is doing a terrible job of defending themselves. I sense a deflection.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod: Requesting Deadline Extension

[Mastermind of Sin]

We don't need an extension. At this rate, the person I'm voting will be lynched, and I'm okay with that.

LOOK AT THIS! HE ONCE AGAIN REFUSES TO DEAL WITH ANY REAL ISSUES AND REPEATS THAT HE WANTS ME LYNCHED! DON'T LET THIS SCUM GET AWAY WITH THIS! My vote won't be on a single-vote wagon if you people would wake up and vote mbf.

What issues do you want him to deal with? What do you think town-MBF would do differently? Why wouldn't he be content with his top suspect being the current lynch?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't need you to defend me, MoS. Dana is only making himself look worse by focusing on one non-issue. I haven't acknowledged him because I already addressed Thor.

I'm not defending you. I'm questioning dana's attack to see what the response is so I can get a better dana read.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, I've changed my mind.

Mod: Retracting Deadline Request

I'm going to be V/LA for a week and a half starting Friday anyway, so I won't be around to help out during an extension anyway. We'll just have to make a decision before the deadline, although it's gonna suck.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You aren't addressing my questions either.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If people ignore the obvious and refuse to vote mbf, then I will be voting Energetic Penguin, who is a null read for me. He's not incredibly pro-town, so he's not a BAD mislynch if he is one.

WTF?

Unvote, Vote: dana

That is super scumplay. No protown person should sacrifice their top suspect for a null read.

[Mastermind of Sin]

How is saying that if his top suspect doesn't have enough votes before the deadline that he'll switch to someone he's not sure on in order to ensure town gets a lynch a bad thing?

Like, seriously. Town needs lynches. There's obviously not much of a consensus. It's entirely reasonable of dana to say that.

I find it suspicious that dana only has one suspect in this entire game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

My point is that if he's going to compromise, it should be someone he at least slightly thinks is scum. I find it hard to believe that he has one guy he thinks is SUPER scummy and no one else between that an "null tell".

[Mastermind of Sin]

What are the cases on EP and RC?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I still don't see what the case on EP is. dana's post about jumping on the EP wagon was pretty scummy, which is somewhat of a town tell for EP in my book.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The only thing I don't like about Ant this game is how much his vote has bounced around. I'm pretty sure he's voted half the people who aren't him by this point.

I also noticed that he makes a lot of huge wall posts, which is not inherently town or scummy, but a lot of the time it is an alignment-based playstyle thing, though. I am not really familiar with him. Does Ant usually bounce his votes around and make a lot of huge wall posts when he is town?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Went back and looked at EP. His early game seemed fine, the only thing I took issue with was him trying to lump me and MBF together in his attacks, the rest of it is probably just playstyle differences between us.

I also don't like this response:

That's a safe bet, RC.

In other news, I just looked at the player list and was surprised to see someone I did not even realize was playing this game. Then I went back and looked at his posts, and I saw my definition of active lurking.

Unvote, Vote: animorpherv1

Stop pretending to contribute!

Nice Hypocrisy scum.

Not only does this seem to be an easy response to make (I'd expect town to be a bit more forthcoming about

why

they have a problem with my vote), but it's also categorically wrong. For my vote on animorpherv to be hypocrisy, I would have to have been pretending to contribute. EP, are you arguing that my early posting in this game was intended to look like contribution?

Also, not particularly happy that EP has suddenly disappeared right as deadline approached.

Still, more happy with my dana vote right now, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I find it suspicious that dana only has one suspect in this entire game.

Yeah, that is not true at all

• Ragnarokio - weak fluff argument but still.
• MarchHare - tried to build a case
• PeregrineV - more stuffz
• mikeburnfire - oh hey! look, we finally got here

And he has also rubbed up against others like RC, so I really feel like this is trying to set dana up here.

Reread that statement. Here's what I did not say:

I find it suspicious that dana has only had one suspect in this entire game.

Here's what I *did* say:

I find it suspicious that dana only has one suspect in this entire game.

There is a clear difference in meaning between those two statements, but you are acting as if I said the first version. Nowhere did I claim that dana has been zoning in on the same person all game, so don't put those words in my mouth.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Last Post (all times CST):

danakillsu - Thurs, 11:22 am
Channeldelibird - Thurs, 3:44 pm
Ant_to_the_max - Thurs, 11:23 pm
PerigrineV - Thurs, 2:51 pm
Mastermind of Sin - Now

Thor665 - Wed, 3:22 pm

mikeburnfire - Thurs, 5:45 pm
Ragnarokio - Thurs, 7:18 am

Energetic Penguin - Tues, 9:57 am

ReaperCharlie - Thurs, 3:33 pm
ooba - Thurs, 1:23 pm
Magua - Thurs, 10:50 am

MarchHare - Sun, 2:58 am

Some people are suspiciously missing close to deadline...

Fucking Christ, I have no motivation these days.

Will post tomorrow.

Mod: Please replace MarchHare.

The prod deadline is 48 hours, and it's been nearly 5 days now...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't see how people can't tell how scummy dana's being. That vote on EP just reeks of opportunistic scum, imo. Also, my V/LA officially started yesterday so don't expect anything from me after this post. The only reason I'm posting is that it's 5:30 am and my party just ended. Was helping a friend who got sick from drinking too much, and now I'm crashing before getting up in 3 1/2 hours for a 4 hour drive.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Assuming the mod's votecount declaring EP at L-1 was correct, then Ant *did* in fact hammer, since the only unvotes were Peregrine and RC who were both on dana.

If EP is scum:

Those two votes scream "let's try and start a wagon against someone that most people in this game don't like as a last ditch effort to save our scumbuddy". Might be a slight town tell for dana, though.

If EP is town:

As annoyingly unjustified as their votes are, it was probably a town move in this case. Scum would more likely have found a way to get on the EP wagon instead of starting a whole new "wagon" right before deadline. I'd definitely look at dana hard again tomorrow, although nothing precludes us having two town wagons.

We'll see soon enough which one it is.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Checking in from Ohio really quickly.

Vote: dana

You were scummy yesterday, that hasn't really changed. I don't like the shift to EP to save you from lynch, someone with more time than I should look into that to see if there are some possible scumpairings here.

Secondly, the RC kill is weird. Definitely not someone I would expect the mafia to go after, will have to go over his posts again to see if something triggered it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

:goodposting: from Magua on this page.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: On the last page -.-

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, why is that good-posting from Magua? Do you agree that what ooba said is scummy? If so, whay are you still voting dana.

This:

I wanted to see how ant and others would react if I attacked ant without putting a vote behind it. I at least thought it had a higher potential to yield useful information than a direct vote would have been. If Ant was scum, a wagon on him probably wouldn't have been successful at that point in the game, so it wasn't worth trying to lynch him anyway. My vote was on thor because I hadn't removed it from the previous bandwagon.

Wait...what?

No.

That makes no sense.

Magua literally took the words out of my head.

...and this:

@Magua: Alright.

So...you agree with me? That it makes no sense?

Does this bother you at all?

...

Expanding now on the "confusion" bit:

Townie Thought Process: I think ReaperCharlie is scum. He's scum scum scum. Oh, he died and flipped town. Guess I was wrong. I need to reevaluate stuff.

At no point is the town "confused" about what's going on. What's going on is simple. I thought EP was scum. He flipped town. That didn't confuse me. It made me sad, but it didn't confuse me.

The scum thought process is different. Scum going after RC know that RC's not really scum. They shoot him, he flips town, they're not really surprised. But they want to fake a townie reaction. They have this idea that the townie reaction is to be consistent, still believing that RC is scum even with the mod flip. So out comes "confusion".

This is bollocks.

Exactly what I was thinking as well.

Also, dana's scumminess > ooba's scumminess.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, not impressed by Empking's level of contribution since replacing MarchHare.

[Mastermind of Sin]

- Ant goes into town list because I don't see scum doing a stupid hammer like that ..

I don't get this. It was a deadline hammer and done without a lot of fanfare. At the time Ant put the hammer down, it seemed like most people in the game were either voting dana/EP or they were just waiting for deadline to come. There wasn't a lot going on, so I could totally see scum waiting around to make the hammer. I don't necessarily think Ant is scum right now, but my point is that I don't see how it's a town tell. At best it's probably a null tell unless I see some other indications from Ant that link him to that lynch in one way or another.

[Mastermind of Sin]

We could have, you know, lynched Dana...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, once dana flips we get that much more info out of him than if he were left alive. Conversely, if EP flips, we get next to nothing, and scummy-dana is still alive, whether or not he's actually SCUM (which I believe he is). Consider that in your calculations of who to lynch, ooba.

You have a point, but I see things from the opposite. If he flips town, I think MoS and ooba should be looked into tomorrow. I know it is probably to late for wagons on them and out of dana and EP I will vote dana. Honestly I get the same feel from EP as I did last game.

Looking into the ReaperCharlie NK. First suspect would be MoS, since RC was voting him, but that seems like a frame job. So, looking into it more, would like Ant to elaborate on this statement about further examination of MoS and ooba today, becuase it hasn't happened yet.

...what? How can Ant examine me and ooba based on dana flipping town when dana is still alive?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, once dana flips we get that much more info out of him than if he were left alive. Conversely, if EP flips,

we get next to nothing, and scummy-dana is still alive

, whether or not he's actually SCUM (which I believe he is). Consider that in your calculations of who to lynch, ooba.

You have a point, but I see things from the opposite. If

he flips town

, I think MoS and ooba should be looked into tomorrow. I know it is probably to late for wagons on them and out of dana and EP I will vote dana. Honestly I get the same feel from EP as I did last game.

Looking into the ReaperCharlie NK. First suspect would be MoS, since RC was voting him, but that seems like a frame job. So, looking into it more, would like Ant to elaborate on this statement about further examination of MoS and ooba today, becuase it hasn't happened yet.

...what? How can Ant examine me and ooba based on dana flipping town when dana is still alive?

I read it as he was talking about EP (who flipped town) (bolded above).

I read it as him talking about dana (based on the part bolded above). Regardless, Ant is still alive and can tell us what he meant by that statement, so I'm not really sure why we're arguing about it. Moreover, I'm not sure why Ant hasn't chimed in to correct one of us yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think it was a rhetorical question, Magua...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ant, would you like to expand on why you think EP flipping town and RC dying makes me scummy? You've hinted at it multiple times now, but all I'm seeing is smoke and not a lot of substance.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Interesting voting block there. Dana being on both wagons only reaffirms my vote on him. I'll take a look at Thor and Magua soon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Gah, fine MBF. SHe's still useless though

Unvote: Ragnarokio
Vote: Danakillsu

o.O what?

PerigrineV:

Town

Magua
Channeldelibird
Ant_to_the_max
Thor665

Scum

Ragnarokio
Mastermind of Sin*
danakillsu

Why do I have the honor of being starred? Can you expand on your reads somewhat, please? I'm especially interested in your town list, actually.

Big whoop. He's also voted Rag and MoS, so we obviously don't share opinions. Quite frankly, I haven't seen anything useful from that slot all game, even before the replacement.

Agreed. Empking is mostly skating by without saying much right now.

I agree with Magua that the game was stagnating, I'd even said as much myself prior to his vote switchup.

Dana didn't even comment upon my blatant and awkward vote switch to him - I'm happy with that vote now.

So I'm not frantic to get someone's vote off me, and that makes me scum? You should know that it's my policy not to try to defend against a case that isn't there. I know you're a better player than this. Right now, you're just trying to make crap stick to me.

Sadly, I agree with this. Still, I don't really think this is an appropriate way to address it. So, first you were so unconcerned about his vote that you didn't say anything about it, but now that he's pegging you for that, you lash out and make it personal? Sounds like frustrated scum to me.

Maybe your expectation of me is too high?

It wasn't that you weren't frantic, it's that you didn't diss me at all. Do you have evidence of your self meta about this policy of "not to try[ing] to defend against a case that isn't there". If I was supposed to be aware of it I must have lost the memo, because I wasn't aware of it.

Huh? So people are supposed to talk shit about everyone who votes them? When did this become protown play?

This whole exchange between Thor and dana reeks of scum distancing to me. Neither of them are making any sense, and it looks like they are just throwing substance-less attacks at each other to make it seem like they're not scum together.

Add that to the voting block PeregrineV pointed out earlier, and I'm really liking the Thor-dana connection a LOT.

FoS: Thor

I'm going to go back and look at Magua, too, as he was the third player on that list.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Magua ISO:

Enters the game by declaring Thor as his strongest townread. Also puts dana in the town category, putting him as just town-ish enough to not want to lynch him. Also comes in willing to join the EP wagon at a moment's notice.

A couple hours later comes this gem:

Of the three leading wagons (Peregrine, Thor, danakillsu), which would you switch to to avoid a NL?

Interesting that he asks this question of Ant but never answers the question himself. This is even more intriguing since two of those wagons are Thor and dana.

Later that morning...

Liking my vote where it is for pressure, but less sure about it since it was originally predicated on the actions of someone who just got replaced for the very reason I voted them. :/ Still, I want to see how Magua reacts to this line of questioning.

1. If you say your vote is for pressure, there'll be no pressure.
2. A single vote is no pressure.
3. Pressure votes the day before deadline are dumb and scummy.

If you're so worried about the deadline and deciding between the leading wagons to avoid a no lynch, why were you pressure voting Ant? It's a bit hypocritical to berate me for the same thing you were doing.

I'm not really feeling that Ant wagon, Magua - sorry. I actually support his desire to kill the non-posters

For that matter, there's no Ant wagon at this point either. You say you support MBF's desire to kill non-posters. How about Energetic Penguin instead of ATTM then? I'm fine with that.

Here Magua is singlehandedly starting the EP wagon after pressuring people to choose between Thor, dana, and Peregrine wagons. You can see from his unofficial vote count in the same quote that EP didn't even have any votes at the time, but Megua, who is so concerned about a NL at deadline, is taking the time to start a wagon on him from scratch.

Anyways:

Unofficial vote count

Thor665 (3): mikeburnfire, Ragnarokio, ooba
danakillsu (2): Energetic Penguin, PerigrineV
PerigrineV (2): ChannelDelibird, danakillsu
Ragnarokio (2): Mastermind of Sin, Thor665
Mastermind of Sin (1): Ant_to_the_max
ReaperCharlie (1): MarchHare
Ant_to_the_max (1): Magua
mikeburnfire (1): ReaperCharlie

Selected call outs:

Thor. Your vote on Ragnarokio sucks and smacks *highly* of OMGUS. Don't ruin my townread on you like this.

ReaperCharlie. Your vote on MBF sucks as MBF is town. Please rectify.

MarchHare: Your vote on ReaperCharlie sucks and is doing nothing because RC is not going to get lynched. Please rectify.

mikeburnfire: Your vote on Thor sucks. However, please keep it there for the time so that Thor will be motivated to pick a better alternative wagon. Thanks in advance.

Thor, goddamit. I wish to make babies with you. But Ragnarokio is still a terrible lynch.

Does anyone else read this and think "hey scumbuddy, you're trying to lynch the wrong person, let's try a different wagon!"???

UNVOTE: Ant_to_the_max
VOTE: Energetic Penguin

Join me, Thor

and we can rule this galaxy as father and son

.

This case on EP is so profound.

I'm not jumping on the Thor or MBF wagon. I'll jump on dana to avoid NL, but we need to decide a lynch *today* so that we can get a claim and behave rationally, not be like "loldeadlinevoteoopslynchedthedoc".

Obv, Energetic Penguin is the best lynch.

Finally says something about the Thor and dana wagons now that he has a competing wagon to push...oh wait, your wagon on EP consists of you and Thor so far...that's not suspicious.

Magua's posting Day 2 has been much better, as I've already stated in previous posts. Still, most of the stuff he said about ooba and Ragnarokio were pretty much common sense, not necessarily something scum wouldn't say.

Conclusion:

Magua has been very active but he's been fairly lacking when it comes to presenting an actual case against anyone. He likes to ask a lot of questions of people rather than offering up cases, so it looks like he has a lot of content when he hasn't actually given us much.

I went into this ISO looking to analyze possible connections to dana and subsequently Thor, who I noted links between in my last post. What I found was an even greater case of scumminess than I had on either of the other two, and his actions have definitely cemented the strong possibility of a dana, Thor, Magua scumteam in my head right now. I'm thinking that their plan is for dana and Thor to distance themselves while Magua sits back and defends the both of them. It'd be a bit obvious to put them as his top two townie reads, so dana's positioning in the middle of the town list is a perfect misdirection that allows Magua to still defend him lightly without committing too strongly to him in addition to Thor.

Unvote, Vote: Magua

At this point I'm pretty much willing to lynch any of the three today, but I definitely feel that a Magua lynch would be the most informative, since the connections really stem the most from his actions, as surprising as that was.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Empking: Ok. I'd like you to be a little bit more verbose when you give reads on people.

@PeregrineV: Would you be willing to vote for Magua? I really think that the connections between Magua, Thor, and Dana stem from Magua more than anyone else. If some of these three are scum, Magua is the most likely. If you disagree, can you then please explain why you don't think my reasoning is correct?

Gah, fine MBF. SHe's still useless though

Unvote: Ragnarokio
Vote: Danakillsu

o.O what?

What?
Seriously - you're confused, but you don't clarify the confusion which makes me wonder if you're acting confused just so you can quote something and act like what I'm doing is bad/scummy or if you actually have a question about my actions. Considering I'm even responding to a request made by me, maybe you should go read that and then see if my post still makes no sense.
Or just derpy, derp along and see if that helps, yeah?

I don't get why you would change your vote just based on that. You gave absolutely no reasoning for it. Hence the o.O

Huh? So people are supposed to talk shit about everyone who votes them? When did this become protown play?

If you're town and someone votes you on Day 2 without saying why, you consider it protown to not ask about said vote?

Asking about it is one thing. That's not what you said, though. You said "it's that you didn't diss me at all"...that's different. I still think dana is scummy, but your expectations don't make any sense. They just seem to be superfluous attacks to look like you're doing something.

Add that to the voting block PeregrineV pointed out earlier, and I'm really liking the Thor-dana connection a LOT.

So you're seriously advocating that three scum are voting in a block on multiple votes on Day 1? How often do you see that happen in a mini?

I'm not 100% sure if you're all scum, but there is something fishy going on here. Magua's connections seems to be the scummiest, though, which is why I'm voting him. Lynching any of you will give important information, though.

So, first you were so unconcerned about his vote that you didn't say anything about it, but now that he's pegging you for that, you lash out and make it personal? Sounds like frustrated scum to me.

No... I don't see what I did as lashing out or making it particularly personal, although I wouldn't have necessarily said that to a VI. The reason for the change in behavior is obviously that he actually seemed to think that he had a case on me once I said nothing.

You said "I know you're a better player than this." That's lashing out.

That is an interesting case, MoS, but I think the connection between Magua and Thor is actually more akin to buddying-up than scum-advising.

Of the four people at 2 votes right now, I wouldn't mind lynching either Dana (for the way we avoided his lynch yesterday), Magua (because of his erratic and, as MoS points out, hypocratic behavior), or Empking (for not contributing, and MarchHare's uselessness). As it stands, I'll remain on Empking for now until I see something worthwhile out of him.

So which one do you believe is the scum buddying up?

I'd prefer you vote Magua with me, but I can't complain too much about a pressure vote on Empking, cuz I'd like him to give us more content as well.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Well, be quick about it. Deadline is Thursday.

Empking, why dana? I know why I want to lynch him, but your vote just seems opportunistic. Care to give us some reasoning?

[Mastermind of Sin]

ooba, how did you come to any of those conclusions? More specifically, how does dana-scum indicate CDB scum and how does dana-town indicate me-town? As much as I approve of any conclusion that ends up getting my alignment correct, that chain of logic doesn't make any sense...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Fair enough.

How do you feel about the dana-Thor connection?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Dana simply isn't scumhunting.

Pffff. This is one of those things people can say whenever they want, because it's really a matter of opinion. From my point of view, people just aren't paying attention to the scumhunting I'm doing.

Then prove him wrong. Give us some quotes.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not 100% sure if you're all scum, but there is something fishy going on here. Magua's connections seems to be the scummiest, though, which is why I'm voting him. Lynching any of you will give important information, though.

Lynching anyone gives info. I'm asking why you think the scum team would have 3 members voting in near lockstep multiple times yesterday and if you see that happen very often. If you do, I'd be curious to see examples, if you don't I'm curious why you think the scumteam is doing it this time. I may be dissing your case, fyi

fyi I may be dissing your ability to play scum effectively.

More seriously though, I generally don't go looking for examples of stuff in other games. I honestly couldn't tell you how often I've seen scum bandwagon together. Might be a lot, might not be. Either way, it looks scummy to me more because it was the wagon that saved dana from lynch yesterday and less because you were on two different wagons together. To claim that you three have been voting in near lockstop is a bit of a misnomer, because you've all had plenty of votes that weren't together. However, when it mattered most, you came together to lynch a townie and saved dana, and you were bandwagoning another person again today (Peregrine, I believe?). There is definitely a connection there.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Emp - ...bwuh? You...I...I'm happier with you being lynched right now, and you just made me happier yet.

@MoS - So our big scum move is saving dana and Magua is the smart lynch? Bwuh?

*shrug* I wasn't really getting traction on the dana lynch for some reason, so I'm putting pressure elsewhere. I've already stated I'm more than willing to switch to any of you for a lynch today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am thinking that Magua/Peregrine are the best two for a lynch today (somewhat leaning towards Peregrine.)

Why is Peregrine a better lynch when you are voting me, and there are three votes on me compared to 0 on Peregrine?

As someone who spent time yesterday yelling at people who were on solo wagons nearing deadline, I'm sure you can appreciate Ant's vote staying on you over Peregrine, who currently has 0 votes.

...or are you so desperate to not get lynched that you'd encourage others to abandon the best practices you advocated yesterday?

[Mastermind of Sin]

As someone who spent time yesterday yelling at people who were on solo wagons nearing deadline, I'm sure you can appreciate Ant's vote staying on you over Peregrine, who currently has 0 votes.

...or are you so desperate to not get lynched that you'd encourage others to abandon the best practices you advocated yesterday?

All of those things you state would indicate that I'm a better lynch than Peregrine.

But that's not what Ant said.

Why did you feel the need to answer the question for him?

Because I feel the need to point out the ridiculousness of what you just said. I could care less who you were addressing it to. This is about you, stop trying to make it about someone else.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That looks like misrepresentation. MOS is saying your ideas on that players should only be on the large wagons near deadline seemed to have changed now you're under fire.

*looks at votecount*

Is 2 that much less than 3 now? Ant has two votes. I want people to vote Ant.

I don't particularly want people to vote Peregrine. I've never encouraged people to vote Peregrine. I wanted Ant to clarify his statement from his actions. If MoS wants to believe I was trying to get Ant to vote Peregrine, he can believe this, but it doesn't make it true.

Case in point: I've not bothered MoS or mikeburnfire about their votes on me. Me questioning ATTM isn't because he's voting me. It's because I think he's scum.

I didn't claim that you were trying to get Ant to vote Peregrine. I claimed that you were questioning his lack of vote on Peregrine, and that if he *had* been voting Peregrine it would be in violation of the ideas *you* professed yesterday. So thus I question why you wondered why he wasn't voting Peregrine, when it should have made perfect sense to you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

fyi I will be V/LA from June 2-6, I'm leaving for the weekend on Thursday morning.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I still don't understand either of those groupings...

[Mastermind of Sin]

lol...do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

[Mastermind of Sin]

No. Enlighten me.

The implication that my V/LA has anything to do with this game is just stupid. You do realize that this isn't the only game I'm involved in, right? My previous V/LA also fell on the deadline of the game I'm modding, and I had to have my co-mod take over to close out the day.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So wait, your entire case for Ant and I to be scum hinges on posts

he

made? In that entire case the only time you create a connection

from

me

to

Ant is the one time when I attack Magua, my

#1 suspect

right now, for making a ridiculously scummy post where he seemingly contradicts his own professed mafia ideals.

That is a really shaky case, ooba. I find myself wondering why you fail to consider the possibility of Ant's interactions with me being scum on town or town on town. Based on what you've posted, we could make a case for any of the three, nothing you have is terribly conclusive, you've just decided to latch onto one option and run with it while ignoring the other just as likely possibilities.

With that said, I am exhausted and will probably be heading to bed early now. I will most likely make a post in the morning, and then I'm leaving around noon, so I won't be able to post after that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It's possible, but that's not what I took issue with. I take issue with Ooba claiming that I am somehow scum because of what Ant did...that doesn't make any sense. His case doesn't have a two-way connection.

As it is, I don't really see the case on Ant, so I'm going to keep my vote on Magua. This Ant wagon looks suspiciously like the EP wagon from yesterday.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Great job guys...way to out the main character. Can we go back to lynching Magua-scum now?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't necessarily think he should reveal his result just yet...unless you think he was given the

main character

as a safeclaim...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Posting from my phone.

Look at the scum scramble to get a wagon on me so Magua and Dana don't get lynched. There isn't even a case on me.

unvote, vote: dana

Will check back to vote magua if needed before deadline. They are both scum anyway.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Good job railroading two power roles in a row, guys...

I am not a townie. I have a way to confirm my role tonight, but I don't think the scum should know how useful it is when they decide on a kill. Leave me alive tonight and it will become clearer tomorrow. I am willing to claim my character if absolutely necessary, but the fact that I can confirm myself tonight should be enough, honestly. The less info in the hands of scum, the better.

Also, Magua, dana hasn't been around to stop using you and switch to me since my random wagon formed. It still stands to reason that this wagon is scum-driven, though, since no one has presented a case against me yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, Magua, dana hasn't been around to stop using you and switch to me since my random wagon formed. It still stands to reason that this wagon is scum-driven, though, since no one has presented a case against me yet.

You say dana and I are the scum. That's fine. But if dana and I are the scum, and the wagon is scum driven, who else are the scum who are currently voting you? You can say "Magua", but I'm curious who of (PeregrineV, mikeburnfire, ooba, Empking) you suspect.

Also, we've got a claimed cop. You softclaiming when we've got a claimed cop, I do not like.

I have not had time to do a solid reread, so I couldn't tell you. It is just my gut feeling, because I have a hard time seeing this as a pure town wagon when not a one of you has posted a case against me yet.

I am softclaiming to try and minimize the damage done by today's wagons. I don't see how us having a claimed cop has makes you apprehensive about my claim. If anything I have more reason to softclaim *because* we already outed the cop...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am happy with the Dana lynch, Thor. I have been trying to lynch him since day 1

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sorry, just got back from my V/LA as noted before the lynch.

I like ponies.

Ant should be able to confirm my role now. I used Ant to confirm myself because I felt he was the most likely to live through the night. The scum wouldn't know whether it's more important to kill me or Ant, and they'd also be worried about hitting doc protection as well. Thus, if they wanted a guaranteed kill it makes sense they'd go for someone else. I didn't take into account the possibility of two kills going off last night, but luckily that logic extends to a second scum kill, if that's what it is.

I trust Ant more than anyone else simply because I don't see us having an unchallenged cop/Chuck claim. I don't see us having neither role in the game, and thus a claimed role is someone I trust more than the rest of you, who are statistically more likely to be scum. If there is another cop who stayed quiet, now is the time to come forward. Waiting any longer will just hurt us badly, because we need to be able to use the information we have and not throw it all out the window because of uncertainty. I would suggest that every player claim now whether or not they are a cop, because I see no reason for them to stay quiet at this point, now that they've had time to get a second result.

I am not a cop.

The ooba kill makes sense as mafia or sk, while I'd guess the Magua kill is either vig or sk. If we have a mafia and vig kill, I'd guess the vig killed Magua since he seemed pretty scummy. Additionally, I could see an SK trying to hit mafia to take out the competition. I don't see why mafia would kill Magua, though, since there was strong suspicion that he was scum with dana. Thus I would conclude that ooba was killed by mafia, and Magua was killed by a vig or sk.

Gut says that if Dana was scum and Magua was town, then Thor should be dana's scumbuddy since it wasn't Magua. I will have to recheck all of that, though. Now that we know there is either an SK or a Vig, I'll look at stuff with that in mind as well.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What? I just explained why Ant was likely *not* to be targeted by mafia...he was the most likely to receive doc protection. How does what you said make any sense at all?

As for the supposed "connection" between Ant and I, see my debunking of that yesterday. That case was a completely one-sided fabrication. I chose Ant to confirm because he was our claimed power role, and because my role is most useful when I have a protown person confirm it. Having the person I chose to confirm me be scum would have made my role relatively worthless, and thus I had to choose the person that was most likely to be protown, and I'll trust claim evidence over my gut reads any day, especially after the way Hydra Mafia ended up.

[Mastermind of Sin]

How would that have made sense? If I confirm my role to someone we have absolutely no reason to trust, then their word confirming my role means absolutely nothing.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: I purposefully created the ambiguous dichotomy of power role claims in order to prevent the scum from killing Ant or myself. Thus, I felt relatively safe in my choice. I had no reason to think any of the rest of you would survive the night, so it would have been a crapshoot. That wouldn't have been smart or helpful at all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You had no reason to think that any of the rest of us would survive the night? When there are 2-3 high priority scum targets alive?

You had reason to believe that Ant or I would die? When we are both high priority protection targets and there was no dead doctor?

FoS: Ragnarokio

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Anyone who thinks Maua was a Vig kill - if you *really* think the Vig killed likely scum Magua and likely scum Reaper Charlie...let me know. I want to lynch you for being worthless. RC was fairly obv. town on Day 1 and Magua at least had a solid argument for being town because he was playing the worst game ever if he was scum and was also a counter wagon to scum!

What makes you so sure RC was killed by the vig/sk and not mafia?

FoS: Thor

[Mastermind of Sin]

UnFoS: Thor

My bad, I forgot about the kill flavor. That's not something I like to put in games that I run, and I kinda forgot that other mods differentiate between kill types.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I have a way to confirm my role tonight

RAAAAGE, SO FULL OF RAGE. NEIGHBORIZER!?! RAAAAAAGE!

ALSO, YOU WEREN'T FOSING ME FOR NOT FIGURING OUT KILL FLAVORS - YOU SPECIFICALLY ASKED ME WHY I WAS SO SURE THAT KILL WAS THE VIG/SK KILL AND FOSED ME FOR THAT...WHEN YOU HAD LITERALLY JUST DONE THE SAME THING. HOW WAS IT SCUMMY WHEN I DID IT, HOW, EXPLAIN, EXPLAIN NOW, THE CAPS COMPEL YOU!

I was FoSing you for being sure of the RC kill, not the Magua kill. I only made a conclusion about the SK/Vig killing Magua, and it was my bad for FoSing you because *I* did not look at the kill flavors. I didn't make the connection that RC and Magua were killed in the same way and thus most likely by the same source. Thus, at the time I thought it was scummy you had concluded RC was not killed by mafia, because I thought that indicated a slip up of non-public knowledge.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Day start
Something just clicked in my head and this is sketchy as HELL

Let me, the cop, live and try to get me to confirm him as town with a neighbor ability?
I thought this game was in the bag onces dana flipped

I didn't tell you to confirm me as town, because I can let my own actions in this game speak for that. My role ability was confirm-able, however, and that's what I claimed I could do. My role is only marginally useful at best, so I used it the best way I could: neighboring the cop and trying to confuse the scum so they would not kill either of us last night. If you want to read up on my history of using role claims strategically rather than wasting them by just tossing them out in the open, feel free to check my past games. I don't do it all the time, but I've done it a lot.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thor, please explain why you think ant is not scum.

@MoS: Did you use this ability on N1?

No. It can only be used once during the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I choose one person and get a QT with them for the rest of the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I choose one person and get a QT with them for the rest of the game.

And can you describe your though processes behind choosing the claimed cop, especially as he becomes a target for the rest of the game. Why not someone else?

Also, your impressions of Ant based on your QT interactions.

Is there a role-name for your role?

I have already answered your first question.

Ant seems pretty sincere in our QT interactions so far. He definitely put me through paces to make sure I was legit without automatically trusting me, so that served to reaffirm my trust that he is likely town.

My role was called a Neighborizor, but I'm pretty sure that was already revealed by Ant. Not sure if I said it in the QT before he said it here, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm against a flavour claim if it could out the doc.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Thor- Did you somewhere point out the simplest explanation? 3 mafia and a one-shot town vig that missed?

Peregrine: Why would a one-shot town vig kill confirmed town Ooba?

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Ant:
Honestly, I wasn't at first. Neither of us were confirmed to the other, but she seemed to trust me a lot. It seemed like buddying to me. However,

(1) She has been scumhunting more than people give her credit for
(2) I am 100% of her flavor, and it's a good character from the show (from what I've gleaned off a wiki)
(3) <Can't say reason 3 right now>

@EmpKing:
I'm fine with that. I'm the one who suggested the mass flavor claim. I'm CIA Agent Sarah Walker, who is, apparently, Chuck's love interest or wife or something.

Why should we believe Rag is town any more than you believe I am town?

[Mastermind of Sin]

V/LA for this week updated in my siggy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why should we believe Rag is town any more than you believe I am town?

Because I am 100% sure of her flavor, and her flavor is pro-town. I have personally seen her scumhunting since Day 1, whereas you compiled all your notes, edited out the parts that say "good kill target", then sent it to Ant.

Also, I have other reasons that I can't say right now on why I believe Rag is town. I won't say anymore about it today.

Wait, so you're saying you haven't seen me scumhunting this game? See below for why I have a hard time believing you will credit Rag with scumhunting but not me.

Also, why the hell would I bother doing an ISO analysis of someone to decide who to kill if I was scum? You have played with me before, MBF, and you should know that I don't take notes or do complicated analysis for my scumkills.

Right now I can't tell if you're deliberately being difficult or just somewhat facetious.

Rag told me last night that she suspected Thor based on past interactions with dana. I started to look at those interactions, and saw things that I didn't like. Which is why I suspected him Day 3.

Wait, so Rag telling you during Night 2 that Thor-dana had scummy interactions is what alerted you to the possibility of him being scum?

Gah, fine MBF. SHe's still useless though

Unvote: Ragnarokio
Vote: Danakillsu

o.O what?

I agree with Magua that the game was stagnating, I'd even said as much myself prior to his vote switchup.

Dana didn't even comment upon my blatant and awkward vote switch to him - I'm happy with that vote now.

So I'm not frantic to get someone's vote off me, and that makes me scum? You should know that it's my policy not to try to defend against a case that isn't there. I know you're a better player than this. Right now, you're just trying to make crap stick to me.

Sadly, I agree with this. Still, I don't really think this is an appropriate way to address it. So, first you were so unconcerned about his vote that you didn't say anything about it, but now that he's pegging you for that, you lash out and make it personal? Sounds like frustrated scum to me.

Maybe your expectation of me is too high?

It wasn't that you weren't frantic, it's that you didn't diss me at all. Do you have evidence of your self meta about this policy of "not to try[ing] to defend against a case that isn't there". If I was supposed to be aware of it I must have lost the memo, because I wasn't aware of it.

Huh? So people are supposed to talk shit about everyone who votes them? When did this become protown play?

This whole exchange between Thor and dana reeks of scum distancing to me. Neither of them are making any sense, and it looks like they are just throwing substance-less attacks at each other to make it seem like they're not scum together.

Add that to the voting block PeregrineV pointed out earlier, and I'm really liking the Thor-dana connection a LOT.

FoS: Thor

I'm going to go back and look at Magua, too, as he was the third player on that list.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: CDB

The promised reread and thoughts post never came Monday, and it's now Wednesday. He hasn't replaced out yet, either. His last post of consequence was over two weeks ago, and he only made about two real posts in all of Day 2. That is a convenient follow-up to his flat out refusal to vote for dana Day 1, which contributed to us not being able to get enough votes to lynch him as the EP wagon derailed dana's. I want some content and explanations from this role, whether it's from CDB or a replacement I don't care, but the mod should be prodding and/or replacing CDB by now since it's been over 48 hours since his last post.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS, that post you linked me to where you connected Thor and dana does seem good, BUT immediately after making that post, you wrote a 10 page essay called "Magua is scummy and we should lynch him". So your credibility falters.

*shrug* Nobody's perfect. I looked at Thor/Dana and saw a scummy connection, and then my next ISO added Magua, who was the third part of the triangle that got me looking into them in the first place. Magua's actions seemed scummier, so he was my top suspect. That's not the point, though.

What I'm wondering is why it took Rag pointing out the Thor/Dana connection for you to look into it and realize it was scummy, when I had already presented a long case against the two of them the day before...

By the way, will somebody with knowledge of the show tell us if a flavor reveal might out the doc?

On the show itself there are two main supporting characters that are surgeons, but I don't know if they would necessarily be doctors. Since we are restricted to the first season, it's hard to know how the mod interpreted supporting roles that weren't really involved in the spy game yet. It's definitely possible that a flavor reveal would out the doc, though, since we don't really know what roles the mod used. I don't think it's in our best interests to risk the doc just yet, personally.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I guess I am just confident enough that we can find scum again today that we shouldn't risk our doc just yet. The longer our power roles stay alive, the better.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Also, I don't see how a flavor claim helps us that much if we presume the scum have some sort of safeclaims. Without abilities or lack thereof revealed, we can't tell if the flavor makes sense anyway...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Eh, I am not sold that we need that info just yet. I still haven't finished all my rereads yet, though.

V/LA in about 4 hours.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think MBF is either the vig or the SK, but unlikely to be mafia (it did cross my mind that this could be a mafia gambit and the real killer of RC/Magua is staying silent because it benefits them, but that is not a likely scenario). Today I'm more concerned with finding mafia, because I'm going to operate under the worst case scenario that we have 2 mafia left. According to the numbers Ant and I have been running, if MBF is SK and we lynch wrong today, the town basically has an automatic loss unless the scum crosskill, because the mafia voting block becomes too powerful. Thus, I'm willing to let MBF slide for today and take the chance that he might be the SK. Now that he is claimed and out in the open, he is going to have to hunt scum with his kills, so it will be hard for him to make town kills and get away with it if he's the SK.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why couldn't RC/Magua been killed by the Mafia?

See my previous posts. Why would a town vig kill confirmed town Ooba? Additionally, if Ooba was a vig kill, why would the mafia kill Magua, who was very high on the suspect list, especially with Dana flipping mafia as well?

[Mastermind of Sin]

chaotic_diablo? >_>

Also, my V/LA officially starts like now. I'm leaving soon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

...
I'm gonna assume nobody is really buying into MBF not being a serial killer.

MoS and Rag are most probably town, as is ant. we can assume from there that Emp is prob town as he's been investigated.

That leaves Thor and PeregrineV as the mafia.

Unvote
Vote: PeregrineV

My oh my, what a difficult resolution <_<

dram, if MBF is obvSK and you've only gotten the mafia down to Thor/Pere by marking two other people as "probably town", why are you not voting to lynch MBF? Seems like you're taking a risk you don't need to.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So be it. I'm going to get this game back on track. I don't have time to analyze everybody at once, so I'll do it one at a time. First, MoS.

The mafia missed their kill N1, and a new kill showed up under a different flavor (my kill flavor is explicit, I assume the same goes for them). This means that they would likely assume a vigilante/serial killer and a doctor/roleblocker are in the setup. After Ant claimed cop, MoS claimed to be a "confirmable role", which the mafia could have presumed to be the vigilante/SK.

Any doctor worth his salt would have protected the claimed cop, leaving the vague MoS wide open, and yet they killed Ooba. Either the scum thought Ooba was the doctor and worth more than the vig, or MoS is lying scum. That's what I think. I don't remember Ooba giving any doc tells yesterday.

Quote MoS:

I used Ant to confirm myself because I felt he was the most likely to live through the night. The scum wouldn't know whether it's more important to kill me or Ant, and they'd also be worried about hitting doc protection as well.

Again, it doesn't make sense for MoS to target a high-profile role with his one-shot ability, especially since there was no reason for the town to believe a doc existed. But as mafia, with knowledge of a doc, he would know that Ant would likely live through the night, and be able to confirm his ability.

Quote MoS:

Secondly, the RC kill is weird. Definitely not someone I would expect the mafia to go after, will have to go over his posts again to see if something triggered it.

The new context of 'mafia knowing second killing role exists' gives this sentence a new meaning.

Overall, I don't honestly know how to feel about MoS. Logically, a town player would have been killed, and his actions have been INCREDIBLY suspect. But he went after dana a lot. If it's bussing, it's really heavy bussing. I don't know. MoS is still a wildcard to me.

I am only going to say this one time, and I'm not going to repeat myself anymore. This had almost nothing to do with whether or not there was a doc or who they protected. My gambit was about WIFOMing the mafia into avoiding killing both of us because *they* would be worried about a doc. Not knowing whether or not there is a doc, it is more than reasonable for the scum to avoid the obvious targets. That is what I was counting on. You say "there was no reason for the town to believe a doc existed"...I say there was no reason for the mafia to believe a doc *didn't* exist. That's the much more important assumption at this point.

Not particularly interested in voting MBF at this point, because it sounds like the info he's holding back is about Rag's role, not his own. I don't really see how that is hard evidence unless the mod straight up told him Rag's role (which would be crazy good luck for us, but highly unlikely), but I'm not really interested in pressing for Rag's claim just yet. I'm undecided on whether or not MBF is the SK, but right now I'm trying to figure out who our last 1 or 2 mafia are. At the moment, Thor/Peregrine looks pretty good, but I'm also not sure where to put dramonic and Rag just yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MBF: Who am I voting right now?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I wrecked my knee this weekend guys, so I've been busy trying to heal up and see the doctor. Haven't had much chance to catch up on the thread fully, but I'll try to post something later. Right now I'm willing to lynch pretty much anyone who isn't Ant or Empking, since they're the only ones who we have any reason to trust right now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't really see what we gain from a massclaim, especially since I've seen no indication that MBF will actually reveal the rest of his info. If he's willing to go first, then maybe we'll get some value out of doing it. I've already fullclaimed to Ant in our QT, so it doesn't matter to me personally, but I'm failing to see the benefit to us as a town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote, FoS: MBF

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'll say later after more people have claimed. I put my reasoning in the QT with Ant, though. Either way I'm unwilling to place a vote just yet because if we're going to do this mass claim we need to finish it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

1. Seriously you lied to us?
2. We had to

force

that

out of you?

1. Yes
2. You didn't have to force anything. You chose to.

Emphasis on "force" and "that", not on "had to".

[Mastermind of Sin]

Only one of his posts?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Morgan Grimes, Neighborizor.

I guess that leaves Empking.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think this MBF/Rag dichotomy is the perfect place for an SK. Having two players confirmed essentially as mason-vigs is incredibly powerful for the town, and I don't see the mafia having anything near powerful enough to counter that. If they do, it's not a role I've ever heard of. It makes perfect sense for the mod to balance vig and SK by making them neighbors together. It gives the SK some protection because they can claim to be another vig, which is good since SK is generally a severely underpowered role. They can also try to influence the vig's kills somewhat. However, at the same time it makes the SK somewhat accountable for their kills, since they are neighbors with the vig. This is a good balancing factor for the town, as it encourages the SK to hunt for mafia.

If I was a mod, I would definitely want to include something like this. Honestly, I wish I'd been the one to think of it first, because it totally makes sense to have roles like that.

Thus, I'm thinking one of Rag/MBF is the SK. My gut wants to say it's MBF, based on his play today, but his Magua kill was more protown than Rag's kill on RC. There's also the fact that Rag hasn't done a lot of good scumhunting in the game thread, opting instead to apparently just pour it all into the QT with MBF. I can understand doing that to a point, since I've done that with Ant, but eventually you still have to say what's on your mind to everyone else or you aren't helping us find scum. You're just making MBF think you want to find scum. So I'm going to have to go back and look at my notes and see what I think about MBF/Rag again.

FoS: Rag

for good measure, since I already have one on MBF.

[Mastermind of Sin]

This is a good point. It's a powerful setup and naturally the thought of one even/odd Vig would be that the other shares his alignment. As confirmed Vigs to each other they become frighteningly deadly to the Mafia who would need something powerful to counter them. RB isn't bad, and we don't know what else the Mafia may have, but I agree they're powerful paired with a cop and my role and a potential town Day Vig.

...and a Neighborizor, which admittedly isn't that powerful but still not vanilla.

2. I'm 95% sure Rag is Mafia. If he is then I think MBF, MOS and Ant are town.

If Rag isn't mafia, what would that tell you about MBF, Ant, and I?
EBWOP: Never mind, see that someone else already mentioned this.

Thor, why did you not protect anyone Day 2? When do you have to send in your choice?

Also, can we get clarification about quoting QT communications? I just want to be able to copy ISOs we've put together if/when we need them, and I don't really want to go through the trouble of paraphrasing an entire ISO.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thor, why did you not protect anyone Day 2? When do you have to send in your choice?

I already answered both of these questions within the last four hours.

I don't see it in your ISO. Can you answer these again for me, cuz it got lost in there somewhere and wasn't obvious to me.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Kill: Peregrine
Dayvig: Peregrine
Murder: Peregrine
Assassinate: Peregrine
Vigkill: Peregrine
Vig: Peregrine
Eliminate: Peregrine

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: What if someone *is* a dayvig/sk/whatever, and they do happen to use it on the person Thor protected (if he protected someone)? How will us doing this reveal who they are?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why did you shoot me but do everything else to Dramonic?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not sure anymore. The massclaim has made me think anyone who isn't Ant or Empking could be a good lynch for today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Because it takes up two player slots, therefore increasing the number of players potentially cleared by power role claims. That is incredibly powerful, which is why it makes sense for one of them to be an SK. It's also a creative solution to the problem of a mod wanting there to be 3 factions (town, mafia, SK), but not 3 kills a night. I have a really hard time understanding why you don't see this as a possibility.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yes, in fact, that's exactly what I would say as a mod.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mafia or SK, Empking? o.O

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why do you think Rag is mafia?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not at all, considering that a lot of games don't distinguish between kill types at all. Only a lazy town would have trouble with this.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Every game I've been in has. Granted, it's not that many, but still. Mafia NK is always different from other kill sources.

Well as someone who has modded a large number of games on this site, I can tell you that I almost never distinguish between kill types. I think it's a town crutch that encourages people not to use critical thinking in their scumhunting.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Dram and Ant still need to do Vig checks - I submit Pere or MoS are the reasonable ones to shoot at. One of you pick, and the second player can do the other one.

@Emp - my role exists, therefore I submit so does the Dayvig.

@mbf - My role does suck - I actually have Doc meta of me forgetting to use it at night (I lied about it to town so it only came out in Mod notes). I also have meta proof of forgetting to use a town JKer role (though that time I legitimately thought I had done it). I personally prefer VT as my role of choice because I usually get stressed and put off night decisions as too bothersome. For a Day Doc, who we all agree sucks, make it twice so.

Specifically about MoS - you are pro town neighbor, your partner is pro town neighbor...there is a claimed pro town neighborizer - why are neither of you voting him?

Because one of them is an SK.

Also, I'm still very confused about Thor's claim. It doesn't make any sense given what we know about the setup so far. Why are we believing he is a useless Day Doc?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't know what you are, but I can't decide if you are just trying an obvridic fakeclaim gambit or if our mod was just smoking crack when he made the setup.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS - I'm not the SK and I had the opportunity to claim Doc if I was so inclined, and wasn't in any danger of a lynch today...so my plan was to then whip out with 'lol, DayDoc' as a double blind twist on town to advance my scum agenda of...? Seriously?

My other option is to believe the mod put in a completely random and worthless role into the game. Neither seems likely, hence why I can't decide.

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS - Pretty heavily leaning scum. Would love to have him lynched today.

Why?

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS - Pretty heavily leaning scum. Would love to have him lynched today.

Why?

1. If I buy into the Vigs as town - your claim as a town power doesn't hold as much water.
2. Your claim of verifiable town power to save your backside when all you had was neighborizer is pretty weaksauce.
3. Your commentary about how analyzing the kill flavors is a crutch for weak scumhunters paired with a lack of clear scumhunting direction today is a jarring juxtaposition.
4. And, really primarily, pure gut because at the end of Day 2 when I was sort of snarking on everyone for not digging on the dana lynch (and what bussing scum would want to have a negative attitude towards that lynch) you leapt out with a 'oooh, oooh, all for it over here' remark all while not having done much to advance that lynch in the end of day hoopla.

1) The "vigs" are not likely both town...
2) What did you expect me to do? Get lynched because of a random-ass wagon from people that didn't even give a reason to be voting me?
3) So basically you're saying that because I don't know *exactly* who I want to lynch, I'm scum for stating my opinion on kill flavor as a mod? How does that even make sense to you?
4) You *do* realize that I was on dana since Day 1 and most of you bitches dragged your heels and wouldn't help me lynch him, and that even when I was on Magua I still made it clear that I was willing to switch to dana if people saw the light, right? That was the point of my comment. I don't appreciate getting called out for things that are clearly and categorically wrong.

---------------------------

Why are people clamoring to have Ant claim his investigation target? That makes no sense. If anything, the "vig" should claim their kill target (or lack thereof) and not have Ant claim. Otherwise, if Ant is going to investigate a protown player, scum can just kill that person and waste the result. I'd rather not let the scum plan for Ant's result in advance.

Will think more about who is the best lynch for today. Ant and I have some talking to do in QT.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Here is a list of claims and rolenames for the living players.

dramonic - Vanilla Townie (Jeffery Barns)
Ant - Cop (Chuck)
Peregrine - Vanilla Townie (Director Langston Graham)
MoS - Neighborizor (Morgan Grimes)
Thor - Day Doc (Devon "Captain Awesome" Woodcomb)
MBF - Even-night Vig (CIA Agent Sarah Walker)
Rag - Odd-night Vig (NSA Agent John Casey, according to MBF he was told "Colonel John Casey")
Empking - Vanilla Townie (Ellie Bartowski)

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait...so you're saying that the mafia *would* care about Ant claiming his target when they can just block him, but they would *not* care when they can't?

Just mull that one over for a bit, I'm sure you'll see something wrong with that.

I'm not voting because I don't know who I want to lynch yet. One of the vigs is probably an SK, but I don't have a good idea which one. Outside of that, 1 or 2 of Thor/Dram/Pere is mafia, depending on how many are left and whether or not Empking's town result is actually genuine. There are a lot of possibilities, and I'm not sure which one is right.

[Mastermind of Sin]

An SK that can kill every other night and gets semi-confirmed by sharing a QT with the town vig is *more* powerful than a regular SK.

Right now I am leaning toward voting Peregrine, due to the scummy interactions between him and Dana.

Mod: Would I get modkilled for copying ISOs I posted in QT and posting them in thread?

I'd really like to be able to post my analysis on the Pere/Dana connection from earlier today, but I am not going to completely paraphrase the entire ISO. So, if the mod won't let me post it, you'll just have to take Ant's word for it that I did the analysis.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Well that sucks. :/

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not really necessary at this point since Rag switched votes, but I'll post it anyway for accountability's sake.

Here's the shortened version, taken from reading my ISO notes that I shared with Ant:

Peregrine did a lot of flip-flopping, calling Dana scum one post and then calling him probably town the next. Also, at times Dana would disappear from his suspects completely, and he'd jump on another target calling them his favorite suspect without mention of Dana at all. Also says something like "not liking a Dana lynch"...while his vote was currently *on* dana.

Despite voting Dana inconsistently all game and jumping on dana's wagon Day 2 with 4 days until deadline, Peregrine never once gave a reason to suspect Dana until the very end of Day 2, when Ant pressured him for a reason. The reason itself claimed that dana's posts had been worse Day 2, which wasn't actually a very valid reason at all, especially considering the other much better reasons there were to suspect Dana.

Additionally, there were a fair number of smaller tells that didn't relate directly to dana.

Looking at my Dana ISO, Dana posted a decent ISO of Peregrine Day 1 that showed him being scummy, but his wagon attempt didn't take hold. More surprising, however, was that Dana didn't mention his suspicion of Peregrine at all Day 2, even though he'd tried to get him lynched the day before.

I'll wait a little longer to see if Peregrine has anything else to say for himself before I place my vote.

Deadline is in just over 5 hours, so I'll be back in a couple hours.

[Mastermind of Sin]

^^ That's why I haven't voted yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'll vote in the next 1-2 hours.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Because Pere is going to come leaping in with a huge pro-town moment?

Oh, wait, you're delaying for town points, right?

No, dumbass, because I was hoping Peregrine would come in with more information that would be telling about his last scumbuddy, if there is one.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I still don't see Ant as Chuck being a safe claim, so that leaves Thor, Rag, and Empking. Process of elimination leads me to believe Thor is mafia with Empking as the GF if there are two mafia left, and Rag as our SK. I'm fairly comfortable with this since Thor is already scrambling to put suspicion back on Ant (combine that with his scummy Dana interactions) and Empking has posted several times today without giving us his suspicions.

I think we can win if Rag helps us lynch mafia today, and then mafia kills Rag and we lynch the last mafia tomorrow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Whoa. Definitely didn't see that coming, and I totally made the wrong neighbor choice. >_< I really thought Chuck would be in this game...

You played well, Ant, I had no idea it was you. Kudos for that. I guess you're trying for one final mislynch now? You can kill Rag tonight and pretty much guarantee a win, unless you're the last mafia left. On second thought, though, it wouldn't make sense for you to be the last one alive, because lynching me today would reveal you as a fraud and you'd be lynched tomorrow. So that means one of Thor/Empking is your mafia partner, and now I'm second-guessing my SK read on Rag. Having alternating night neighbor vigs would make sense as a balancing factor for giving scum the Chuck safeclaim. This whole time I've been trying to rationalize how this game could be balanced with the town having this much power, but I guess I was focusing on the wrong power roles being scum. Ironically, Rag's probably the only person I can trust to be town at this point, since having an SK with Chuck as a mafia safeclaim seems way too unbalanced against the town. Sorry for thinking you were scum.

Vote: Ant

I'm not sure who his other scumbuddy is yet. On one hand we have Thor with a ridiculous claim and scummy interactions with Dana, and on the other hand we have Empking, who I thought at worst would be the mafia GF since Ant had cleared him. I'm still WTFing over Thor's claim, but I'll have to reread Empking and see if I pick anything up there that might be revealing.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Well, shit. I really hope Thor isn't Ant's scumbuddy now...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't understand what you mean with that link, Thor.

Gonna be gone most of the day, I'll post tomorrow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p3033216

Look at the votes on this page and the wagons I had to choose from. Then look at who I choose to vote on the next page (linked below). Then tell me why I'm scum.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p3033721

[Mastermind of Sin]

Process of elimination leaves Empking, since I don't see Rag being mafia, because that would mean the mafia have two kills every other night.

[Mastermind of Sin]

At this point, it's inevitable.

unvote, vote Peregrene

for the hammer. I was wrong about dana and Magua

Ant, don't investigate dram if Pere is town.

If Pere is scum, I dunno what we'll do. Maybe just not kill.

Bolded for emphasis.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Nothing, just wanted to point that out for you as clarification. I'm working on an Ant ISO, but I got distracted today so it'll probably be tomorrow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Ant - I'll even go with - yes, RBers are much more valuable than neighborizers - so what?

@MoS - your attention helping out Emp from what you must know is conf. town Thor instead of trying to work on conf. scum Ant is noted as a sad experience of the day.

@Emp - are you cribbing MoS' answer there? Or did you have another?

I thought it was obvious that the killer duo was going to kill dram, so I was surprised that you didn't know they'd announced it. I just went back and dug that quote up to help you out.

Still working on the Ant ISO today, watching True Blood right now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ant ISO:

(red denotes important interactions with or mentions of Ant's scumbuddies, dana and Empking)

Day 1 -

Votes Thor

Votes MBF for voting me as his biggest threat because town don't have to worry about threats.

Unvotes MBF because he's L-1

Votes MBF again a minute later because he wasn't L-1

Unvotes MBF an hour later

Calls Rag "unfortunately town"

Votes me for not having much to say

Votes Peregrine for having crap reasons against RC

Posts reads:

dana - leaning scum

CDB - leaning town
Peregrine - null
MoS - null
Thor - town
MBF - leaning town
Rag - gut says town
EP - leaning town
RC - null, leaning town
ooba - null
animorpherv1 - null (note: Magua)

MarchHare - town

(note: Empking)

Note: His reads call one of his buddies town, one of them scum. Fairly standard scum move.

Votes me for...policy lynch?

Also, somewhere in here Ant joined RC's voting alliance. Not seeing that as a plus for Ant, since being in the alliance means scum can avoid getting voted by the alliance. I'm going to have to give RC a stern talking to about that someday.

Ragnarokio and Ant launch into a back and forth where Rag makes some pretty good points against him.

Ant misreads my attack on Dana and attempts to defend his scumbuddy.

After I explain why Ant is wrong, he jumps on the Dana wagon.

Ant unvotes his scumbuddy to hammer EP, who he hadn't been reading as scummy.

Day 2 -

Initial Day 2 thoughts were that Peregrine was scummy derailing the dana wagon and that Ant needs to rethink his reads.

Wants to look into Magua, Ragnarokio, and MoS.

Says he didn't like Magua from the time he replaced in, partially because of the fake daykill and partially because of his constant attacking of everyone. Links Rag and Magua together as possible scumbuddies.

Now pings Ragnarokio as responsible for a dana counterwagon on EP, even though he was blaming Peregrine a few posts earlier.

Goes back to blaming Peregrine for the EP wagon swing that saved dana.

Ant defends himself against Peregrine's ridiculous case that Ant and I had some sort of "connection".

Thinks MoS/MBF/Magua might be responsible for the RC nightkill, votes Magua.

Asks Peregrine why he's voting dana, calls the vote opportunistic.

Says MoS/MBF look townish today. Is torn on Ragnarokio, and thinks Peregrine/Magua are the best lynches today.

Continues attacking Peregrine for killing the dana wagon

Defends himself against ooba's case.

Claims Chuck, points out his breadcrumb, says his night choice was obvious.

Explains his investigation was on ooba.

Note: Why not investigate dana, who you were content to vote almost to a lynch before swapping to hammer EP?

Unvotes Magua to vote dana while a counterwagon on me is building. No reasoning given for his vote.

Day 3 -

Announces innocent result on Empking

. Says Peregrine is the lynch for today.

Says it's fairly obvious who the killer is. (Note: did this ever get explained?)

Explains the Peregrine case, also dings him for voting without explanation Day 2 (Note: Hypocrit!)

Confirms my neighborizor ability, but not my alignment, asks me to claim my role and character in the QT. (Note: which I did)

Says I claimed a character that actually made sense for my ability.

Votes Peregrine, says the four people he'd be willing to lynch today are CDB, Pere, MBF, and Rag.

Explains why other people aren't on his lynch list:

Empking has the cop result

, MoS has been awesome in the QT and he likes his claim, Thor is a gut town read.

Questions how MBF is sure of Rag's alignment.

Calls for mass claim, trying to out the doctor.

After pushing for Peregrine as scum all day, agrees to lynch dramonic instead without reasoning.

Keeps pushing mass claim

Day 4 -

Pushes people to post their current reads before revealing his investigation result (which, by the way, was my suggestion in our QT last night)

Claims guilty result on MoS and votes him

Conclusion:

He was definitely inconsistent regarding his position on dana (without a lot of good reasoning for it), and he worked pretty hard to pin EP's lynch on anyone but himself. I especially don't get why he investigated ooba, when dana was apparently his top suspect Day 1, including being the only person he labeled as scum when he posted his full list of reads at one point.

Not a lot of interactions with Empking, but that's not really saying much since that slot has not really interacted strongly with anyone this game (probably helped along because his scumbuddy cleared him as town). I'm not sure I buy the Empking choice for investigation any more than I buy the ooba choice, since Magua and Peregrine seemed to be his top suspects going into that night.

In retrospect, I'm torn on whether I should have asked Ant not to tell me his investigation last night. On one hand, it prevented him from claiming a result on MBF after killing him and then indirectly framing me as scum, which would have been a lot more convenient since it wouldn't have been obvious Ant was scum. On the other hand, if he'd had to claim his investigation to me last night, he wouldn't be able to set me up today (or he'd have had a lot of explaining to do in the QT). Speaking of which, I'd like to hear Ant's reasoning for having investigated me last night and not anyone else.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea no, coming up with strangely complicated ways for you not to be scum isn't going to distract me, Ant.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ant claimed cop for fear of being lynched. He had to claim investigation results on someobody after that, and once he's doing that, It doesn't really matter who he chooses to be scum, as long as he doesn't pick his buddy and doesn't do it until LyLo.

I'm not seeing the ballsiness of it, seeing as the cop claim was at threat of lynch.

This.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why would I end up dead with a cop, a cop claimed innocent, and the neighbor Vigs as alternate targets?

And a neighbor to the cop. Remember that at the time of his investigation choice, Ant was not supposed "know" yet if I was scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod: What is the deadline for today?

[Mastermind of Sin]

GF Empking would have no reason to fear me.

Agreed.
Why wouldn't he want you dead though to at least make the day a 50/50 debate between town/scumbuddy Thor/MoS for the win?

As is he left you alive so you could bust his buddy so he could keep playing for another Day?

I'm very strongly thinking I'm going to vote Ant soon.

@Emp - why did you believe Ant right away with his MoS investigate?

Because he's Chuck the town Cop.

This is the reasoning that led me to be snowed by Ant until today. :/

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think that something that I haven't though of yet happened with the N1 kills.

At this point I've almost given up trying to guess. I can't think how it will help us find scum at this point, since we have nothing more than speculation to go on. The main possibilities I saw were:

- Mafia and Vig both killed the same person, mothrax only listed one kill flavor
- Mafia did not kill for some reason

Neither of these possibilities revealed anything to me about who the mafia could be, though.

I had thought it was possible Thor was straight up lied to about his role (which would be fucked up and bastard modding) or that he was lying to us (:sadface:), but since I now know that Ant is scum, the already remote possibility that Thor protected against the mafia's kill night 1 is not even something I'm considering at this point.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I am now completely convinced that Rag is not an SK. If she was, she had ample opportunity to hammer me already and could have easily pretended to be convinced by the fakeclaim and tried to snipe Ant overnight. If Thor or Rag were scum, IMO they'd be playing against their win condition right now by not taking the opportunity to hammer me. Thus, Empking and Ant have to be the last two scum or I'd be dead already.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'll do it if Thor and/or Rag agrees and decides the claim order. I don't mind going first, but I'm not going to take orders from confirmed scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, all of this is already in the thread, so why are you bothering asking? Hell, it's even in our QT cuz you asked me for it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

why the hell would I change my character name? It's not like the mod gave me different role today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Honestly I didn't even know Morgan Grimes had a relevant middle name...and I've seen the entire show to date. It certainly wasn't in my role pm.

It mostly looks like you are grasping at straws at this point. You completely pass over the snafu with Rag's rolename claim just to try and fit your version of me being scum. I don't believe Empking's claim, but don't you think that if he got Ellie as a safeclaim, he would have claimed her name in the same format as given to him by the mod? That's how you used your safeclaim, so I'm more inclined to believe that the mod used rolenames and safeclaims with nicknames when their nromal name actually gets used at least semi-frequently on the show. For example, several people have called him Charles, and he uses Charles Carmichael as an alias. Devon gets called Captain Awesome or just "Awesome" more than he gets his first name used, especially in season one. "Big" Mike also has a commonly used nickname. However, most of the other characters in the game (as evidenced by the dead players), including Morgan Grimes, don't have any other names that they go by on a frequent basis.

To sum up in short;

Worst thing against Ant is that he's alive - wtf?

Best thing about Ant is that he's actual town power.

The biggest wtf is my role, which really does have to be for something, and I can't fathom what. I really want there to be a Dayvig out there to have me make any sense whatsoever, but that does seem strange. Conversely - if we think scum are Daytargeting I actually confirm Ant which means we need to nail MoS.

So, in short;

If there's a Day kill power - I think it has to be you. You're some sort of weird odd night SK paired with town Vig and have a Daykill power you're saving to use later. In this setup MoS is the only remaining scum methinks.
If there's no Daykill power, than for my role to make any sense at all - scum have to Day kill and just have flips at night...? In which case I'm the reason Ant's alive and I'm actually confirming Ant due to the night 1 protect with no scum kill.
Third option is my role is total bastard bwu-ha-ha...in which case Ant looks confirmed simply because at that stage I'm actually a negative to town, and town does need some sort of payback, in which case the neighbor Vigs and Cop pair work out just fine, but wtf?

Anyone?
Bueller?

I don't really know mothrax very well, but from what I've seen I don't really trust him not to have been a little bastardy with his modding this game. I'm betting on the third option, although obviously Ant is not the balancing factor for the town since he is scum.

I still think the balance comes from the strength of a neighbor vig group. As I explained in previous days, the two roles were so strong they were the reason I felt one of them *had* to be an SK. With Ant revealed as not actually being a cop, I think they're actually a really strong counter to a mafia RB. Also, I think 2 strong town PRs (Rag/MBF) plus 1 week town PR (me) is fairly balancing against a mafia RB (dana), mafia with Chuck safeclaim (Ant), and potential third mafia (Empking, who is probably a goon). That outweighs the negative from having your bastard role pm.

Also, how do you feel about the mafia supposedly sacrificing dana, the roleblocker, to save me, the neighborizor who clearly was not investigation immune if you are to believe Ant's claim? Why would I as scum make such a move when I could have just sacrificed myself and had dana block Ant for the rest of the game while we took out the vigs one by one?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Because you knew dana was going to go down, and you took your chance to buddy up with me to look pro-town. And you didn't know about the vig"s" then. You just knew there was "one" more killer.

First off, my questions were to Thor. Secondly, you're right about the vigs, I got my timeline mixed up. Still, your "counterargument" doesn't hold any water because dana was going down thanks to *my* actions pushing him as scum all game. I had been trying to get the mafia RB lynched since Day 1. That was well before a random wagon appeared on me that forced me to semi-claim. You're basically saying that on Day 1 I planned out sacrificing dana so that I could buddy up to you? I don't think so.

That is the way I am leaning right now.

LoL, look at scum buddying up to the townie he hasn't even investigated yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Ant just slipped up a bit IMO. He knows Thor is town, but he shouldn't have any reason to think that's the case if he is town himself.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm ok with lynching Empking, since I already know Ant and Empking are scum. The only hesitation I have is that I know for sure that Ant is scum, whereas I only have empirical evidence against Empking (because Thor hasn't hammered me yet). Still, I'm 90% sure Empking is scum, so I wouldn't mind lynching him if it came down to it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say...I *know* Ant is scum. I can surmise Empking to be his scumbuddy, because neither of you hammered me. There's a big difference there. Thus, I would prefer to lynch Ant but I will hammer Empking if you won't lynch the obvscum Ant.

[Mastermind of Sin]

How does that make sense? I'm not sure why you don't understand how I can be more certain of the guy who claimed a guilty result on me than the guy who's voting with him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Nothing, your logic is perfect. That's exactly my thought process. However, I'm trying to avoid making a mistake over something I haven't thought of yet. I already messed up trusting Ant in the first place, I'm not super interested in giving up on 100% confirmed scum if I don't have to.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Initial Day 2 thoughts were that Peregrine was scummy derailing the dana wagon and that Ant needs to rethink his reads.

Yup. You caught me. Are you honestly telling me that what Pere did wasn't sketchy? And woo, you pick out one of my cop crumb posts saying that I got an inno. Bravo...

No, I'm not saying that. You know from the ISO I put together on Peregrine that I found it scummy. That particular point was simply in red because it was something in your ISO that involved dana. I want to look at every possible connection you had to dana and Empking. Whether or not it was logical doesn't change the fact that you helped shift suspicion for our failure to lynch dana D1 onto Peregrine. Scum can post logical things, too, especially when it helps them get townies lynched.

Now pings Ragnarokio as responsible for a dana counterwagon on EP, even though he was blaming Peregrine a few posts earlier.

Are you stupid? Oh wait, no...just scum! This right here is a blatant lie. What I suggested that Rag might have did =/= what Pere did. Only time I came close what when I was making a possible case with connections to Magua.

If Ragnarokio flips scum I think we also have enough evidence to link Magua to scum as well. I addition to the defense of her D1 I also found this stood out to me.

Unofficial vote count

danakillsu (4): PerigrineV, mikeburnfire, ReaperCharlie, Mastermind of Sin
Energetic Penguin (2): Magua, Thor665
ReaperCharlie (2): MarchHare, ooba
mikeburnfire (1): danakillsu
Thor665 (1): Ragnarokio

Ragnarokio. I know you're active. Thor is not getting lynched today.

Both of you need to put your vote somewhere useful.

quickly followed by

Unvote

Vote: EP

EP's been less useful than Dana, and I'd rather get lurkier people out of the way quicker. My reads on both of them are fairly neutral.

Possibly a "hey, we need a counter wagon for Dana"? These posts really bother me.

And then the attack on ooba. I don't like the argument at all.

Are you really going to claim that this wasn't an attempt to pin the Dana->EP shift on Rag? Bullshit.

EBWOP: Ant just slipped up a bit IMO. He knows Thor is town, but he shouldn't have any reason to think that's the case if he is town himself.

Thor and Rag, you have the power to make him shut up. Thor's logic makes sense, which yes, means that we have nailed Empking as the last scum which means that voting him shouldn't be a problem. Although, because of my guilty on MoS I feel it is my duty as town to not take a chance when I have a 100% scum.

Way to copy me lol...

[Mastermind of Sin]

That doesn't make any sense at all. Why would Magua posting a vote count that shows dana with twice as many votes as anyone else and then prodding Rag to unvote Thor mean he was leading her onto a counterwagon? She could just have easily voted for dana as EP, I don't see how you could have concluded that was Magua's fault...

[Mastermind of Sin]

24 hours without a post. Shouldn't the mod be yelling at us or something? C'mon guys, I don't want to see Ant win this game due to town apathy.

Rag, where are you? You're pretty much the deciding factor here, since from Thor's perspective Empking has to be scum and from my perspective Ant has to be scum. They're the top two suspects either way (well, I won't speak for Thor, but I'm willing to vote either one with a preference for Ant), so you need to be here to decide which one we lynch today and which one we take out tomorrow.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not to stifle the wonderful discussion going on here, but I'm ready to hammer.

Empking, Rag already explained why she thought you were scum in her last post before the vote, I believe.

Thor/Rag, if one of you is playing me somehow and this lynch costs us the game, I'm gonna be super pissed. Here goes nothing:

Unvote, Vote: Empking

[Mastermind of Sin]

GG MoS/Thor?

Nice, scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

??? I didn't change my mind at all. I still prefer to have lynched Ant, but that obviously wasn't going to happen since you and Rag decided we were lynching Empking first. I still think he's probably scum, but I'm just not 100% certain.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm pretty sure I said or implied on multiple occasions that I would hammer Empking, so I dunno.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also - I'm actually scum with Rag. So - lulz.

o.O Now you're just trolling me...

[Mastermind of Sin]

I've been thinking about this a lot during the night. I've been trying to reason out why things are working out this way, and this is what I've come up with.

With Empking's death revealing him to be a Godfather, that would potentially confirm Ant's cop claim. However, we don't know if his GF ability was investigation immunity or nightkill immunity. With us having two vigs in the game, though, nightkill immunity makes perfect sense.

Where Empking's death could be potentially damning for me, Ant wins whether or not we lynch Empking. He can freely push for my lynch, and when we went for Empking instead, he comes out looking good anyway. Besides, there was no way he could justify voting for Empking, since from his viewpoint, he wouldn't know whether Thor or Empking was my scumbuddy. On the other hand, knowing Empking was the GF, why would I have opened myself up to lynching Empking and even hammered him, when Ant would not have voted him? I could have easily just continued pushing for Ant's lynch and made you and Rag choose between the two of us rather than considering Empking. Even if I was lynched, Empking could have just as easily made an argument for Thor being my scumbuddy as himself.

For me to be scum, I would have had to bus my scumbuddy dana the Roleblocker to save myself and then bus my scumbuddy Empking the GF to save myself. In both instances, the mafia would have been in a better position by letting me die and keeping my scumbuddy alive. It doesn't make any sense for me to be mafia with those two, because that kind of gambit is too extreme to be logical. Ant, on the other hand, had a solid fake claim that made him very valuable to his scumgroup, and the death of Empking works in his favor as a result. Heck, it certainly makes sense for him to have claimed Chuck as a cop and then claim an innocent result on Empking, knowing he would look good if Empking ever died.

It also explains why Ant called for the vigs to kill Empking AFTER he got an innocent result on him.

If the vigs had listened to him, Ant would have gotten points for calling the vig despite the innocent result, AND he would have bolstered his own cop claim by having a dead GF. Very clever.

Vote: Ant

Regarding the kill choice last night, I'd think it was obvious that Rag was leaning more toward lynching Ant than Thor was, especially given this quote:

Ant is probably scum.
In the even that ant is scum, Emp is scum.
MoS is possibly scum. (meaning I have some reason to believe he is scum)
In the event that MoS is scum:
Thor is probably scum.
Emp is null.

Whereas Thor played it a little more in the middle, I'd say. At the very least, looking back I found this:

To sum up in short;

Worst thing against Ant is that he's alive - wtf?

Best thing about Ant is that he's actual town power.

The biggest wtf is my role, which really does have to be for something, and I can't fathom what. I really want there to be a Dayvig out there to have me make any sense whatsoever, but that does seem strange. Conversely - if we think scum are Daytargeting I actually confirm Ant which means we need to nail MoS.

So, in short;

If there's a Day kill power - I think it has to be you. You're some sort of weird odd night SK paired with town Vig and have a Daykill power you're saving to use later. In this setup MoS is the only remaining scum methinks.
If there's no Daykill power, than for my role to make any sense at all - scum have to Day kill and just have flips at night...? In which case I'm the reason Ant's alive and I'm actually confirming Ant due to the night 1 protect with no scum kill.
Third option is my role is total bastard bwu-ha-ha...in which case Ant looks confirmed simply because at that stage I'm actually a negative to town, and town does need some sort of payback, in which case the neighbor Vigs and Cop pair work out just fine, but wtf?

Anyone?
Bueller?

If I was scum, the best play for me would have been to kill Thor and convince Rag to lynch Ant, since she was already listing him as her top suspect yesterday *and* had stated she thought he was scum with Empking, who is now revealed as scum.

So again, if I was scum, this would be yet another instance of me taking the hard way out when there was a much easier option that would be more likely to end up in my victory.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Whoops, looks like I took too long writing my post and Ant also responded.

Well...the post I had ready was more of a Rag oriented one...

RE Why I am still alive:
MoS claims to be a "confirmable" PR. Scum plan to use that "confirmation" on me and try to sway my opinions in the game. They need me alive. Plus, at that point, I was tunneling the hell out of Pere.
I manage to get an inno on the GF which was a super plus for them.
If they killed me last night, that would 100% guarantee that I was telling the truth about MoS and lose the game for him.

Wait, so I tried to sway your opinions yet did not even suggest a cop investigation for you once, even on the night that you investigated me and "revealed" me to be scum? At most I contributed my opinions to the QT at

your request

.

RE Why MoS is scum:
Cop investigation [/game]

RE Why MoS is alive:
Really think about this...why is he alive? D2 they outed both a cop and a "confirmable" PR. And you know...when you say confirmable, neighborizer is not on the list. So, the scum at that point had two juicy PRs to kill...but they didn't kill either. They went for the COP CONFIRMED TOWN MEMBER (don't forget that point right there)

I think it's obvious that you were doc hunting and wanted someone you investigated dead in order to lend some credence to your claim. The fact that I claimed my role was

confirmable

meant you knew I wasn't a doc, and you didn't try to kill me for fear that the doc would protect me.

Also, your second sentence implies that Thor is scum. If the mafia had two juicy PRs to choose from, that would mean neither of us was scum. That's not even a valid argument at this point.

RE Empking flipping GF:
So...we have a Godfather...perfect counter for a cop...hmm...

Told you he was going to say that.

RE Empking bussing MoS right away:
He already got the cop confirmation on him. Last thing he could do to look town was bus his partner to hell

VOTE: MoS
GOGO FIRST TOWN WIN!

Both Rag and Thor looked close to voting Ant yesterday. Why wouldn't he have just tried to lynch Ant and go for the win? If I was scum with Empking, all we would have needed was one vote from Thor or Rag to wrap up the whole game. On the other hand, with Empking being scum with Ant, it makes perfect sense for him to sheep along behind his claimed cop buddy and try to get an "obvscum" mislynch before the town stops to think about any other possibilities.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yes, but with two people sharing the decision making, that's twice as many people that mafia have to snow in order to not get vigged. Nightkill immunity helps balance that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It also explains why Ant called for the vigs to kill Empking AFTER he got an innocent result on him.

If the vigs had listened to him, Ant would have gotten points for calling the vig despite the innocent result, AND he would have bolstered his own cop claim by having a dead GF. Very clever.

How does that makes sense if Emp was a NK immune GF?

Oh, good point. Hmm, that actually makes more sense, because if the vigs listened to him the town lost a kill and Empking could have just claimed some sort of bulletproof townie after the fact.

That said, you did tag onto the biggest dangling bit of WIFOMsoup I had - and that was that Emp was kill immune, not investigation immune.

So scum are;

Mafia Godfather (NK immune)
Mafia Roleblocker
Whatever Ant is (Goon?)

vs.

Useless Doc wtflolomgbbq role.
1 shot Neighborizer.
2 Neighbor/Vigs

Scum seem overpowered, yeah?

Other option is...

Scum;

Mafia Godfather (investigation immune)
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Neighborizer

vs.

Cop
2 Neighbor/Vigs
Useless Doc wtflolomgbbq role.

I'm of the opinion that neither of these setups are very balanced, and I have pretty much hated mothrax since the mass claim. To clarify, I'd say the scum have an advantage in the first option (the actual setup) and the town have an advantage in the second option (what Ant is championing). Given that mothrax already fucked up your role royally, I'm more inclined to believe he screwed the town. Having a wtflolomgbbq role is *not* a balancing factor.

Of course there's also the possibility that scum actually kill during the day and I really am a functional cop. If this is true than the reason there was no scum kill Night 1 is a little bit less because Rag suxx0rs and a little bit more because I actually protected Ant - this would also explain lack of a Cop kill after Ant claimed because scum would be all like, wtf, omg, Doc protections, kill the Doc, kill the Doc!

In which case you would be dead by now.

I HATE this setup.

I absolutely know my power is either just an insulting slap to the face or that scum day target or something - because the Vigs had no reason to lie so they clearly did regular night targeting.
Lack of Cop kill makes a lot of sense with belief in Doc and to set up Neighbor shenanigans.

I'm strongly leaning voting MoS.
In truth I've actually typed it up twice now in two different posts today and deleted it both times because;

1. I've actually been playing really well this game and have tagged 2 of 3 scum so don't want to frell it up.
2. Besides a bit of groaning about some of the kill shots from the neighbor vigs (and I stand by that groaning - hai Dead QT ) I actually think town played a pretty decent game this game as well and I really don't want to let them down by just sort of whipping out my e-peen and proclaiming how awesome I am.

It's like 1am my time and I have to be up early for work tomorrow, so I think this will wait till after a night's sleep and me being awake.

It'll probably be a MoS hammer though I'm thinking.

What response do you have to the fact that for me to be scum, I would have had to bus both of my more useful scumbuddies rather than them sacrificing me for the greater good? That I had a solid path to victory yesterday by just refusing to hammer Empking and I gave it up to lynch him? How do you explain that?

In contrast to all of the above, Ant's actions make perfect sense for scum strategy. After the cop fakeclaim saved him, he was more useful to the scum than dana, and he gets brownie points for being part of that lynch on top of that. Additionally, he can relentlessly push for my lynch yesterday because even if you figure out that Empking is his scumbuddy he can use that to try and confirm himself due to him coming up as "Godfather".

I'm frankly flabbergasted that you're not seeing how Ant has to be scum at this point. I know it's not easy to see past the fake investigation, but everything else falls into place once you take the blinders off. It was Ant's cop claim that made me trust him this whole time, too.

Hmm, actually...

Mod: Can you confirm whether Empking's Godfather ability was investigation or nightkill immunity?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Bah. It was worth a shot.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I will be in and out of meetings all day today, so replies to any questions you have will be infrequent at times, Thor. Just as an FYI.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What part of I'm voting Ant because I have *more* evidence against him than Empking but will hammer Empking if you decide to take him out first didn't make sense to you? I didn't know 100% that Empking was scum, because I don't know the fucking setup. We had two neighbor vigs, one of whom could have been a daykilling SK in addition. We have a day doc with no day actions to protect against. I don't know if you noticed, but this setup gives me a fucking headache and I hate mothrax. So forgive me if I stopped being 100% sure of things that were based entirely on reasonable assumption. See how far that got me in this game, assuming the cop was protown? No way I was going to count Empking as 100% scum, especially when I already had a 100% scum Ant. There was enough evidence for me to hammer, but he was never going to be my first choice to lynch. -.-

[Mastermind of Sin]

So other than "he's scum, lawl!" should it be so super obvious Ant is scum that it's flabbergasting you that I'm not voting him?

You both worked over dana in basically the same way.
You both pathetic pushed Emp in the same way.
What am I missing as the lawlovbious moment of flabbergasting?

a) From my supposed position within the scumgroup and my weak role, it would be disadvantageous to the mafia for me to act the way I did. Lynching the Godfather makes *no* sense from my position if I was scum!
b) From Ant's position as the fakeclaimed cop, dana and Empking were expendable tools to make him look better.
c) Ant called for a vig kill on a supposedly investigation confirmed innocent Empking, which would have wasted the town's vig kill for the night if they had listened.
d) If I was scum, why didn't Empking and I kill Ant Night 3 instead of MBF? That would have only helped to confirm Empking as town, and we probably could have gotten you lynched because of your WTFLOLOMGBBQ roleclaim. Leaving Ant alive only put us in more danger, as we had to know he would investigate either myself or your that night, and our roleblocker was already dead.
e) Who benefits more from Rag being dead instead of you? Ant or me?

[Mastermind of Sin]

d - But how does leaving the cop alive *help* me if I'm scum? Do you really think I planned to try and go head to head against the cop rather than take my chances against you?

EBWOP: I don't understand what your second comment means.

[Mastermind of Sin]

d (cont) - Not to mention - Vig at that point.

This statement is saying that I'm scum? o.O

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, when Reck posts the QTs you'll see that I *did* expect Ant to investigate me and I *did* expect to be lynched yesterday. Goddamn if I didn't put some effort into it, though. I'm really disappointed how my scumbuddies folded this game. If they had played even an iota better, we probably would have steamrolled. This setup was really dumb though, the mafia roles were weak as shit and also WTFTHORROLECLAIM.

Basically it boils down to this:

1) My teammates sucked
2) Mothrax sucked
3) I predicted the shit out of Ant's moves this game.
4) I am awesome [/narcissist] but frankly should not have even gotten this close to winning. I was shoveling shit as fast as I could. I think we would have won yesterday if Empking hadn't voted me. If you hadn't had an out to not choose between me and Empking, I think I could have gotten Rag or Thor to vote Ant yesterday and seal the victory.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh yeah... MoS why did you stop talking to me in the QT? :'(
Just because I knew you were scum didn't mean we still couldn't be secret friends

I didn't want to slip up by mentioning anything in the QT that you could use against me in the thread. I was walking a very fine line and even the slightest thing could tip the balance.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Honestly the sad thing is I played up the hesitation on voting Empking

because it's what I would have done as town

. My initial impulse was to just hammer the shit out of Empking, and I toned myself back specifically because it was the protown move to make. I had absolutely NO intention of trying to save the Empking lynch at that point, so it was just unfortunate coincidence that you thought that's what I was trying to do.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yay town win!

Very tough call there Thor! I was reading along. I mean the main reason why I thought MoS was scum was due to the hesitation in him voting empking yesterday. But MoS's point about 2 vigs pointing to NK immunity for GF instead of inv. immune was also good.

I would say well played all around..

You have no idea how long it took me to work out the NK immunity loophole to explain Empking showing up as a GF. I was so proud of myself for coming up with that, lol. Without that I was a lock for lynch today, no contest.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Honestly the sad thing is I played up the hesitation on voting Empking

because it's what I would have done as town

. My initial impulse was to just hammer the shit out of Empking, and I toned myself back specifically because it was the protown move to make. I had absolutely NO intention of trying to save the Empking lynch at that point, so it was just unfortunate coincidence that you thought that's what I was trying to do.

EBWOP: I just realized that the problem is, I'm a Cassandra as town. People don't believe me and lynch me because they think I am scum. When I am town I do things scummy because they are the right things for me to do and that's all I care about. When I am scum I play more shiftily and somehow it ends up making me look more protown because I'm not genuinely scumhunting which would be getting me in trouble if I was town. It's a weird dichotomy...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Nope. Basically mothrax screwed us and lost us the game night 1. Because of my V/LA and the deadline extension for replacement Day 1, I had to leave before Night 1 actually started. I randomly picked CDB/Ooba as our nightkill in the QT and told my team that's what we should go with. The problem is, neither of them officially pmed the mod the kill because they assumed I had done it, even though I couldn't have. And even though it was obvious who we wanted to kill, mothrax decided to be an asshole about it and count us as a "no kill" for night 1 because he didn't get an official pm. Basically, we would have avoided all of this bullshit and won the game with the Peregrine mislynch if mothrax hadn't fucked us over. I'm thoroughly disgusted with his setup and the way he modded this game in general. Thanks to Reck for taking over this shitstorm, though. You have many props for that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

To be fair I think I probably could have saved dana, but he fucked up Day 1 and I had to take that opportunity to bus him before someone else eventually pushed him to lynch.

I also still have absolutely no idea why I got put at L-1 after Ant's cop claim. To this day no reasoning has been put forth for that wagon.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, I totally picked Ant to neighborize because it's what I would have done as town. I didn't really utilize our QT so much to influence Ant to do what we wanted except to try and make myself look better through acting town in the QT.

Oh, and my original fakeclaim was Lou Palone, who was actually ALSO a bad guy in the series despite being Chuck's love interest at one point. So basically mothrax gave me the worst claim ever. However, I stole the Morgan Grimes claim from one of my buddies and ran with it. I still love how no one ever made me explain why Morgan Grimes would be a neighborizor. I had no good answer for that (the only reasoning I could think of didn't apply to Season 1 of the show), but Ant said it made sense so any time people got close to asking me about it I just deferred to Ant backing me up.

By the way, I breadcrumbed all three scum fakeclaims Day 1, so I could pick and choose which breadcrumb to use based on what I ended up having to claim. I almost claimed Lou Palone to try a wtflolomgbbq gambit like Thor's role ended up being. If I'd known your role would be that bad, I'd probably have gone for it.

Morgan Grimes breadcrumb (bolded):

D) What reason do we have to believe you that my WA™ 3000's broken?

WA 3000 = WAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWA...

All I hear is you crying.

You may have been here longer than Ythan but you clearly haven't read much ReaperCharlie. That post looks fairly typical of him to me. (Not intended as a slight, RC.)

Spy high five!

In other news, you kids need to chill out. I go to sleep, and I wake up with a prod from the mod. What's up with that? Can't a guy take a nap without getting prodded these days? I wasn't gone for *that* long...

Ellie Bartowski breadcrumb (bolded):

MarchHare. Alliance w/me in this game? Yes/No.

MoS is also invited. mikeburnfire and Thor are not.

Personally, I'd rather be in an alliance with MBF and CDB.

a) They're awesome
b) All of our names are abbreviated with 3 letters

Sorry, but you don't qualify for either of those precepts.

Mmm, this is fun.

Words taste like peaches!

/out.

MoS: 2, RC: 0

Lou Palone breadcrumb (bolded):

So...you don't think I was active lurking?

By my definition - yes.
By your definition - no.

Correct answer. +1 Townie point for Thor!

Let's go grab sandwiches together and have a party.

Whoo!

The first two were direct quotes. I couldn't find any Lou Palone quotes, so I made a reference to her owning a sandwich shop.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh, and my original fakeclaim was Lou Palone, who was actually ALSO a bad guy in the series despite being Chuck's love interest at one point. So basically mothrax gave me the worst claim ever. However, I stole the Morgan Grimes claim from one of my buddies and ran with it. I still love how no one ever made me explain why Morgan Grimes would be a neighborizor. I had no good answer for that (the only reasoning I could think of didn't apply to Season 1 of the show), but Ant said it made sense so any time people got close to asking me about it I just deferred to Ant backing me up.

Hey. I finished until Season three - Lou was never bad?

Jill Roberts is the love interest who is bad

Morgan grimes makes more sense as neighbourizer than Lou though - outgoing friendly guy ..

Lou Palone was involved in a smuggling ring.

[Mastermind of Sin]

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/aUwbY6CCU85

Enjoy.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh yea also, mothrax screwed me in another way. My win condition said I had to get a *majority* of the town, not half. So in a 1v1 against a vig, it would be a tie. That's why I didn't have a choice but to kill Rag and try to convince Thor to lynch Ant, even though Rag would have been an easier sell for me. Even if I had miraculously gotten Rag to lynch Ant, it would've gone to night and Rag and I would have killed each other. Basically I was screwed.

Oh yea, also:

I soooo called it. I also love how Thor immediately tried to get info about my QT interaction with Ant last night. That's why I didn't suggest an investigation target at all, haha...

Anyway, I am probably doomed, but I'm going to give this a fighting chance and see if I can flip this on Ant, especially since Thor already suspects him.

Also, here's the MoS/Ant QT, I don't think it got posted yet:

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/Wsgwfye75fC7Q

[Mastermind of Sin]

You wish.

[Mastermind of Sin]

<3

Any chance of the PMs and night activity being posted? MoS you did do a good job there near the end. Almost had me doubting my scum read on you. Defeinitely made me not envy Thor's position.

Here are the mafia choices, anyway:

N1 - CDB/Ooba (not counted by mothrax)
N2 - Ooba (confirmed innocent, we were dochunting)
N3 - MBF (was planning ahead to prevent the town from having a nightkill Night 4, since we already couldn't stop Rag from shooting N3)
N4 - Rag (had no choice, if I had left her alive I wouldn't win even if I got Ant lynched)

[Mastermind of Sin]

Greetings

Mastermind of Sin

You are La Ciudad(Mafia One-Shot Neighborizor)

Abilities:
Seduction - You are the greatest seductress of all time, and if seduction doesn't work, you aren't too shy to torture to make someone talk. Thus at any point in the game you may PM the Mod with the name of a play you wish to become neighbors with. The neighborhood will not be open untill the next twighlight.
Fulcrum - You share a factional night kill with

danakillsu

(Stavros Demetrios) and

MarchHare

(Dr. Jonas Zarrow). Please PM the mod with your choice of Kill. You may also communicate with them at any time here
Alias - You know for a fact that Lou Palone is not in the game.

You win when the members of Fulcrum are greater than the number of people defending the intersect or nothing can prevent the same.
Please confirm via PM with the name of your alias
The Thread is Here:

[Mastermind of Sin]

I almost tried to get you lynched for having the weakest rolename ever, Peregrine. I didn't even remember who that character was until I googled it, haha...turns out getting you lynched was much easier, though. I'd had an ISO in our neighbor QT for pretty much the whole day, and then I let Ant work off of that to get you lynched, without actually having to post the case myself. It helped that Ant felt it was good strategy for us to withhold the ISOs I had made, so you couldn't even defend against it. =P