The Brave and the Beautiful 2: Fairy Tales ÔÇô Game Over

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Vote: ReaperCharlie

[Lady Lambdadelta]

RC says he has been locked out of his main account (he pmd me on an alt).

He says he's getting Mith to reactivate it soon?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

HOLY FUCK FITZ YOUVE IMPROVED SO MUCH

First warning.

If this is the level of things you're going to be giving "warnings" for RC, I'm afraid this game is going to need a lot of replacements.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Vote: Kdub

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Given LL's vote
- was not on kunstar
- And avoided the current biggest wagon (Iece)
+
Iece's vote on Fate

I feel confident enough to make an early scum team call of {kunstar, Iece, LL}.

Cool, this means I can ignore your posts for the remainder of the game, since they're going to be as crap as this one was.

I mean, you're calling scumteams on Page 2? What makes you confident enough to be able to do that? What connects us together, beyond the fact that I chose not to vote for either of the two you're calling scum with me?

And why exactly do I need to add my vote to either of the two biggest wagons in RVS?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think the link ooba presented is unusually facile relative to what he usually comes up with. I mean, it's valid, if not sound, but I would expect something more sophisticated from him one way or another. Not sure I've ever played with ooba scum, though.

I have the same impression as you re: LLD's post, but I think she may've done something similar as town in [REDACTED]. It's also weird that she totally ignores what I just posted. Moreover, her "attack" on Ooba looks made-up...the scummy part isn't "calling scumteams" per se IMO,

but using uncharacteristic methods to deduce them.

Except that the bolded is what I said. Obviously by me saying "calling scumteams this early is scummy", it is because of the reasons he gave for doing it. He does not have enough information to determine any kind of connection at this point, and so his reasoning was weird.

@Robo: Please outline exactly what makes my reaction scummy. I want to know what part of my post made you think I was scum. The only information you gave me in your post was "this reaction is scummy". What was scummy about it? What parts of the post expressed this scummy trait? Be specific.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Well, no you didn't say it at all, as your explanation itself demonstrates. At best (and that "best" is not out of the question, obviously), you implied it. But it's weird to me that you didn't say that explicitly and instead came up with, like "Ooba is not being Lawful!"-type reasons for his being scum rather than "Ooba is not being Town!"-type frames.

In other words, I think the town thought process looks for why someone's motives are odd, but the scum one looks for categorical flaws in someone's play. You framed Ooba's post in the latter fashion. This implies that you were somewhat more likely to have evaluated his play from the latter perspective.

This is a load of BS.

First off, you agree with me about his scumteam picks.

Secondly, I said the exact same thing you said. What you are doing now is picking apart my rhetoric, trying to find scum intention from it.

Oh wait, isn't that what you just said scum does? "Categorical Flaws"? You aren't looking for true intent in my post, but rather PAST the intent at the way it was worded to try and find scum motivation. That's the definition of the argument you just proposed. True Hypocrisy.

So by the first point, we have you attacking me for thinking one thing... when you think the same way.

By the second point, we have you attacking me for

the way I worded something

, and calling it "scum intent".

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@Robo: Please outline exactly what makes my reaction scummy. I want to know what part of my post made you think I was scum. The only information you gave me in your post was "this reaction is scummy". What was scummy about it? What parts of the post expressed this scummy trait? Be specific.

Of course.

Cool, this means I can ignore your posts for the remainder of the game, since they're going to be as crap as this one was.

I mean, you're calling scumteams on Page 2? What makes you confident enough to be able to do that? What connects us together, beyond the fact that I chose not to vote for either of the two you're calling scum with me?

And why exactly do I need to add my vote to either of the two biggest wagons in RVS?

The bolded part is the one that got me the most.

The first thing you say to his suggested scumteam was this. How it sucked. You blasted out at him. You had an angry reaction the suggestion that you were on a scumteam. To me that tells me that you are angry that he has pinned you down as scum and hes right.

Your first reaction to calling you scum was for you to immediately defile his post. To discredit it and try to make it false.

And to me that just means you are scum and don't want to be put on any scumteams on page 2.

Mainly the bolded. Your attitude towards his post.

The questions toward the validity of his post were more sensical but still its clear you were trying to discredit him.

Thats what I found scummy about your post. It was your reaction.

So frustration and lashing out at people is now a scum tell?

Why then, have you not voted Fate?

By your logic, any discrediting of another player is scummy.

And yet, Fate does this in his post about HavingFitz.

Your selective use of this reaction tell is noted.

Though, this has no reflection on Fate's alignment. It can be equally attributed to you being scared of voting Fate.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh, and Robo?

I am confirmed to myself as town.

He claims I am scum.

Of course I'm going to say his post is "false" and make it look false.

You know why? Because it is.

Your logic fails to hold up in any meaningful way.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Actually, the more I read that reasoning by Robo, the more I twitch.

Unvote; Vote: Robo

Your one reason was only that I was "trying to discredit his post". Yet, he calls me scum in the post, which to me, clearly makes it false. Why are you ignoring that contradiction, Robo?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You are using an overbroad interpretation of "categorical flaws" that would basically make all scumhunting incriminating. For the sake of clarification, the difference between what I did and what you did is that I made clear the scum motivations in your behavior whereas you merely pointed out that Ooba had been behaving badly. You can claim that you implied the rest, and you may well have, but you can't (or shouldn't, IMO) fault me for taking issue with your rhetoric -- at least not in that regard. I'm not going to just infer that every post I read has a town intent. That is bizarre.

P-edit: I don't think Robo is scum. Regardless of whether they are accurate, I think his post ninja'd some of the concerns I had with yours, so I think they come from a town PoV.

Please clarify if you think I am missing something significant.

I'm stating that your attack based on Rhetoric was wrong, but does not make you scum in this case. (GreyICE would call it dumb, not scum. I feel that insults your intelligence)

I am only implying that you are being too narrow with your "categorical flaws" argument, and you are mistaking rhetoric and how someone says something, for intent.

@Fate: So Fate, you're going to do what you did in World of Warcraft mafia are you? You've never successfully given a correct read on me in a game, why would you start now?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh, and Fate? Once you get your head out of your ass, take a look at Robo's argument against me, and tell me if you see the same contradiction I do?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Fate, you're a weak town read for me right now.

Which frustrates me, because I hate when my town reads are playing pants on head Mafia.

Try ACTUALLY reading the game, and not just tunneling on me because I happen to annoy you with my style of play.

See: UK in BotW Mafia. See: Esurio in any game you play with her

You do this often.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I am still cross with you, Fate. But I can be swayed with snuggles.

P-Edit: Why do you think I'm intelligent? I don't think I've ever played with you directly...? O.o

I of course understand that it is possible that you are town, but that isn't very helpful to me in evaluating your alignment, because I already knew that.

I am wary that LLD suddenly wants to make friends. And Fate, to a lesser extent. <_<

Friends? No. Mafia isn't about friends.

I am simply being courteous. If you would like that to stop, please inform me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

My Wiki is not up to date.

Some scum games I am proud of (I.E: Did well in) are Bloodbath in Camden and BrotherHood of the Wolf.

For an SK game, look at Higurashi Mafia.

If you're too lazy to look those up, I'll find them for you (but I'm also lazy and tired~)

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I've never been lynched as (and therefor have never lost as) scum.

So it sounds conceited, but... I don't have one~?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=17191

That's Bloodbath. That was a perfect scum sweep (there was a mechanic that killed scum at night, but no town member ever lynched or killed scum).

I'll grab Brotherhood next.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=16125

Here's Brotherhood.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh Amrun, I'm sorry.

For Brotherhood, I replace into the game near the end of Day 3.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Amrun, I do have a town meta for using that defense.

Also, I've pretty much grown tired of yelling at people. It's too much emotional investment in something I really shouldn't care that much about.

I'm not currenty able to grab a game where I use the Rhetoric thing, but it's something I say when faced with attacks based solely on Rhetoric.

Not that I particularly enjoy the use of Meta in this case. I'm obliging because it's somethin you asked for, but Meta is a useless basis for arguments.

Amrun, you have a scum read inspite of that post? What are your main problems?

Oh, and look: Robo made another set of bad posts. I'll get to those when I'm not on my phone.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I am still on my phone, but I'll note that I have indeed played with Robocopter before, in MultiplePersonalityMafia, hosted by Parama.

Fate played in that one too. Ask him for his opinion of Robo's play in that game.

Or maybe I should just show you how Robo himself described his play in that game?

All this and more~, when I get onto my computer.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD: I pretty clearly explained myself all ready. I am noticing a drastic playstyle shift that is more consistent with your scum meta. What I specifically don't like about your play in this game is your appeasement of everyone and the buddying with Iece, whom you have never even played with before. (You have an outstanding question from me about this, btw.)

You started off with something that is more "normal" for what I think of as your town play, but as soon as you came under fire, you calmed right down and started being level-neutral with everyone and it is clanging alarm bells in my mind.

This is unusually meta-heavy, but it is early game. I would have never had the urge to meta you if you hadn't changed your playstyle immediately as soon as suspicion fell on you, and that plus the buddying/appeasement in this game is why I am voting for you. The meta is just verification.

Ooba: Not necessarily, but I need to double check.

I have explained why my meta has changed. I refuse to yell anymore, due to a refusal to become emotionally invested in these games anymore. I'm reacting more calmly now, because me yelling doesn't help us. (See: PYP)

The buddying wasn't actually buddying so much as it was me just trying to calm down, and not be misunderstood. I don't want this game to be about me yelling at everyone, and then Fate SDCing me to death.

As for your outstanding question, can you find that for me?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh, that answer is the same as my above post. I'm trying to be nicer in games, because I really don't like yelling etc. etc. etc.

Besides, PYP has taught me that you can convince people that you are right more when you are nicer, than when you use WORDS WORDS WORDS.

And convincing people of your arguments is something both town and scum want, so really that motivation is null.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

It was me talking to UK after the fact, and also talking to RayFrost.

With Robo, I feel like it would be very hard for someone to come to the conclusion he did without scrambling for a reason. In his original vote post, he gave no reason but "disliking reaction", and when I pressed him for what part of it he didn't like, his reason seemed poorly thrown together and scummy.

Iece's reasoning appears more cautious and attempting to understand the reasoning. It MAY be interpreted as fence sitting, but I don't think that is the case here. I see town intent in Iece's hesitation and questions in this case.

That's the main difference between them.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yes Fate, you're being a wonderful positive contribution to the game.

Keep on keepin' on, eh?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

That confident? Wanna bet Fate? 1 month if you're wrong~

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Avatar bet detected.

Refusal to move vote today has been cemented.

Now get fucking lynched

Is this a "Yes", Fate~?

Because if I recall, the last time you lost an avatar bet to UK, you never did follow up on it~

Of course, I'll be satisfied if when I flip town, you allow someone competent to take the reigns (I.E: SpyreX) and you sit down and shut up for the rest of this game.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yeah, you couldn't be more wrong Fate.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Maybe you'll drive my lynch to the gallows, but the final satisfaction will be mine.

Unless of course, some of the town on my wagon come to their senses and ignore your ravings.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh, I should claim.

I'm Ariel, "Curious Explorer".

What that essentially means is that I am a 2-shot tracker and a 2-shot watcher. I use one ability per night.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

1) I'm at L-2. Not premature.
2) Please explain why.
3) Useless statement is useless.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

3. Reference to Fate's post above after your (accidental?) Jester softclaim.

P-edit: I do not understand what SX is saying. That I am scum waiting for the opportunity to join the LLD wagon?

Were I to switch, I'd switch to SX because I don't want to put LLD at L-1 when I clearly want other stuff to happen today, but I don't think the distraction is warranted.

Oh good god....

This makes me twitch so badly.

Spy, do you see?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Vote: Iecerint

So you're happy with the wagon, but you won't vote it?

Also, you've been advocating a neutral position this entire time, when did your read change?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Kast, you can't count Metropolis because my scum partner claimed scum in thread and named me as his scum partner.

You didn't "catch" me. I was given up by my teammate.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

As I explained above, the game involves my scum partner telling the entire town that they are scum, and that I am their scum buddy.

For obvious reasons, there was a great deal of outrage about the game due to this.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@LLD-
You're kidding yourself and ignoring the plethora of posts from the majority of town who all IDed you as scum from D1/D2. And that's not counting the ICs who had inside info.

Also, you forced your partner to claim in thread by claiming first that he was definitely guaranteed scum. He only claimed as a counterclaim to yours.

The most important line is there "The IC's with inside info".

[Lady Lambdadelta]

THOUGH it is wrong to try to connect all three dots, so nevermind.

Anyway, wheels are spinnin until our friends come.

Is this not a subtle way of saying "Come finish her off Fate?"

That said, I have a town read on Fate.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The person who shot SpyreX claims now, or is labeled as scum forever.

That was the worst shot I have EVER seen.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

>___>
<____<

>_________________>b

You didn't...

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Ursula-Ariel is an INTERESTING PROPOSITION.

I really don't like how LLD soft-claimed no PR and then bam! PR.

That wasn't a soft claim of no PR.

That was a "Fate you're fucking wrong, and I'm going to laugh at you when this is over" claim.

Get it right~

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh, and what are you going to do, lynch every heroine because there's a complimentary villain?

Snow White is clearly the Witch, right?

Oh and Cinderella is OBVIOUSLY the Step Mother, right?

Your logic falls apart here.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

It is only vT in that first bit where I am annoyed that he only read half of one of my posts.

The rest is (I think) a T&T wall.

Mine, at least.

-twitch-

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The reason I was twitching at Iece's "Town vs. Town" comment on his own fight with Fitz was that it didn't feel to me like Iece was treating Fitz like a townie. It just felt weird having Iece say that, especially after Amrun had come out and said it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I've gotta re-read Kdub and Fitz, aswell as Amrun.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

V/LA Until Sunday

I'll be around, but I'm not going to be super active.

In other news, I dislike Ooba's assessment of the "if Vig doesn't claim, it's scum".

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Bite me Fate~

Oh, but damn you for being town this game. I don't even get the satisfaction of trying to kill you for being scum. Instead I have to sit here and take your misguided verbal abuse, knowing that you're being dumb, not scum.

Someone want to quickly explain the Kdub wagon?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Fate, what is that?

Why did you suspect Kdub? Where have you posted any reason for suspecting him?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Not that Meta is applicable or useful, ever.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Fate's lying to push his lynch through. If he had role related reasons, why didn't he claim them earlier when I first claimed?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Just so you know, Fate is the kind of player who will fake a cop claim as town to push a lynch that he's tunneling on through.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Okay, biting.

Vote: LLD

Not that everything adds up, mind you.

There's your scum folks.

Unvote, Vote: Amrun

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I mean, Amrun has gone from "LLD is prob town" to "I'll junp on this wagon!"

It's no risk for her, because when I flip town, she pins it on Fate.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Not to mention that Amrun has been deliberately anti-controversy this entire game. She's laying low and taking safe stances, while sniping at people every so often.

P-edit: That's a fancy way of saying "I'll lynch her if the opportunity comes."

You're Scum Amrun.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You're going to blindly follow Fate on this?

Fate, claim your "role related reason". You're not getting my lynch with this bullshit lie you have created.

Secondly, if you do manage to get me lynched; when I flip town, the town better lynch you for this. I don't care if you are town fakeclaiming this shit. When I flip town, you die.

Thirdly, Amrun has been fencesitting both my wagon and the Kdub wagon pretty badly. The opportunistic hop at the end of Fate's post is just the cherry on top.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Fate, claim your fucking "role related" shit.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Very well. Fate, you're now locked in a 1v1 with me. Once I flip town, you're dead.

If you are town, there will be words in post-game.

P-Edit: Yes Amrun!scum, you of all people WOULD like to avoid clarification.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Clarification is ANTI-TOWN. It is THAT SIMPLE.

Yes, it is anti-town to try and understand things better, so you don't get mislynches.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

"YOU ARE WRONG. I WON'T EXLAIN WHY, BUT YOU ARE!"

Yah no. Why don't you give me a few good reasons why it's bad? Let's have this debate.

I mean, otherwise I'm forced to assume it's because you are scum and want to push this lynch and then Fate's.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yes, that is correct.

Fate's clarification is NOT on the same level as this. Fate's explanation of his "role related reason" doesn't give scum the "massive information advantage" you speak of.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because Fate's claim is bullshit. I'm town, so there's nothing scum would learn from it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Kdub, you're playing devil's advocate.

"no evidence to suggest that Fate is lying"

No evidence showing he's telling the truth either. And I know he's lying.

It's just my opinion that Fate is likely stupid town, but

I have been wrong about Fate before

That's why when I flip town, he needs to die. Immediately.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Commutter and hider? lolnope

Unvote; Vote: Kunkstar7

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LL, any results from last night?

Nope, and I'm one line away from replacing out of this game because of it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I've even got GreyICE lined up as a replacee~

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You're replacing out because... you didn't get any results?

HERE LET ME HELP YOU WITH THAT

VOTE: LADYLAMDA

No, rather because I apparently missed the deadline for submission by under 30 minutes, and then sat here for 2 hours watching this thread remain locked.

RC would not accept the submission, despite having 2 hours to incorporate it into his results.

So I actioned last night. It just didn't fucking count.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Nope. I didn't get two fucking uses.

I didn't even get one.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

For the record, I tried to watch Kdub last night.

I figured scum would try to roleblock his doubling power.

P-Edit: Exactly. And had my watcher action been accepted, I would be able to inform you.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I. MISSED. THE. DEADLINE. BY. UNDER. 30. MINUTES. RC. DID. NOT. ACCEPT. THE. ACTION.

(Despite having this thread locked and not updated for 2 hours after my sending the action. And his "processing actions" post was posted AFTER I sent my action)

/rant

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Fucking bullshit LLD

When the flip happens, think about shit, submit your action.

Procrastinating FTFL

Unvote:
Vote: Kast

You'll note I was on V/LA until late Sunday Night.

I then did not think about this game, and checking my Ego Search did nothing for me.

I didn't get any kind of heads up or anything.

I'm REALLY pissed.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I was un-blockable and un-killable last night, according to Ooba?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Ah.

It says I can't be killed, and HIS action can't be redirected or blocked.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Vote: Kast

[Lady Lambdadelta]

/hug Amrun

Take your time, hun. That's more important than this game.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Except that my action never got sent.

So possible outcomes also include:

1) RC didn't tell me because I didn't send
2) Role shenanigans occured through roleblocking

People trying to "confirm me as scum" through uncertain night actions are very likely scum.

Oh look, Kast and Iece.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So you're trying to argue that in a power heavy RC game, the scum team doesn't have a RoleBlocker?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Iece, you are failing to read, much like I did.

I was only kill immune last night. I was not action immune, like I assumed.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, this was discussed, so there's no excuse for you being te second person to miss this.

You're still deliberately pushing bad logic.... Which is scummy.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yeah, that was fake as shit.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You're still trying to get me lynched on that?

Your vote isn't even on me. You're cheerleading.

Unvote; Vote: Iece

Fate, can we do this one today instead?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Kast, do you not understand that the double may not have reached me because I didn't send an initial action on time?

Iece is pretty obv scum.

Amrun's claim is something scum could easily be given.

Further, why wouldn't Amrun, as town, Theif me to confirm my ability?

I know confirmed role =/= confirmed alignment, but watcher/tracker is a pretty town role.

And if Amrun was town, even if I was scum, she could have stolen those abilities for the betterment of town.

Instead she steals from Robo?

Co-incidentally the person who died? Who's role we can't confirm?

And blocks ABR?!!!?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If I was framing Kdub, wouldn't I be attacking him?

Amrun/Iece/Kast

2 of them are scum.

Take it to the bank.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Unvote; Vote:Amrun

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If it takes my death for town to stop playing Pants on Head, that's fine.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This game was shit, RC is a terribad mod.

Do we need to say anything else? No? Ok.