The Brave and the Beautiful 2: Fairy Tales ÔÇô Game Over

[Kdub]

VOTE: Iecerint

Because I feel like it.

[Kdub]

Iec wagon while he's V/LA is not cool.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Fate

Game's been open almost 24 hours and zero posts by Fate? That's hardcore lurking by his standards.

[Kdub]

I'll bit and see where this goes.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: kunkstar

[Kdub]

Iecerint's posts are not sitting well with me. It feels like he is trying to maintain a neutral attitude toward everybody. He starts giving reasons for his Fate vote, then immediately backs off. He's fence-sitting on LL by agreeing with Robo but qualifying it with a "she may have done this as town..." statement. He says he is "wary" of both of them (not a very definitive position).

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Iecerint

I'm not feeling LL-scum just based on that exchange. Her reaction to ooba's post seemed normal to me. From what I know of her town play, she comes across as frustrated when people don't agree with her. I don't agree with her vote on Robo, but it's not scummy.

[Kdub]

My initial vote and unvote of Iec was clearly RVS with no serious reasoning. My current vote on him was given with a serious reason. Major difference.

LOL @ kunkstar calling me out for flip-flopping on Iec (explained above) when he does the exactly that in the same post.

Iec:
So you voted Fate for a meta reason, he gives a response that you claim to think is reasonable and honest, and you still think your reason is valid? I am accusing you of fence-sitting because you have posted a lot in terms of volume, but I still can't tell what your actual opinions are. You are making statements about Fate and LL's actions, but your overall conclusion is "I'm not sure", and you don't seem to be doing much in terms of questioning or pressuring them to find out more.

[Kdub]

ooba:
Wait, so what exactly is the reason for your vote on LL? The only thing I got out of post 114 was that you want to meta her (indicating that you need more information), yet you vote her? Also, how is Iec's reaction "golden and town"? At best, it's null.

Iec:
Let us know when you finish rereading that game and how it changes your opinion.

[Kdub]

I am not extremely confident about LLD lynch, but her flip either will be informative about kdub and kdub is my only other actual suspect at the moment, mostly for his shenanigans around LLD/Iecerint, so I'd rather lynch LLD first.

Are you trying to set up a conditional future lynch based on the flip of someone you claim to not be confident about? I fail to see how LLD's flip is more informative about me than about other people who have taken a stance on her.

[Kdub]

LL:
I don't think you needed to claim just yet, but whatever. The claim seems believable and can be proven.

Were I to switch, I'd switch to SX because I don't want to put LLD at L-1 when

I clearly want other stuff to happen today

, but I don't think the distraction is warranted.

Could have fooled me.

[Kdub]

Iec:
It's pretty obvious to me what level of seriousness was attached to ooba's early kunk vote, but I'll let him respond to that. Suffice to say, the fact that it is one of your main questions/concerns at this point does not reflect well on your commitment to finding scum right now.

I have a HARD TIME believing that SX and Kdub would be this obvious (but see above).

I have a HARD TIME believing that SX and Kdub are town (no reference necessary).

I think this is the first time in this game where you have outright declared suspicions without qualifications. Why exactly are you calling me/SpyreX scum suddenly? Because we disagree with you?

Amrun:
To clarify, do you think LL's claim make her more likely to be town than before, or do you still suspect her?

[Kdub]

I'm pretty sure Fate was being sarcastic, especially since town-Fate would certainly have shot at LLD there.

I'll wait for confirmation from Fate and others that they weren't responsible for the SpyreX shot before saying anything further. If nobody claims it, I'll assume it came from scum, and in that case...

FoS: havingfitz

[Kdub]

Actually, now that I think about it, the SpyreX kill very likely came from scum. The smart way for a pro-town role to use such an ability would be to use it on a player that was going to be the D1 lynch, so that the town could effectively get two lynches D1. Randomly shooting SpyreX out of the blue would be stupid, even if said player thought he was suspicious (and really, can you be sure enough on D1 to waste a kill like that?). Nobody in this game strikes me as a player would would play a day vig in such a careless manner. Therefore, SpyreX was probably killed by scum.

I will have more to say on the implications of SpyreX's death, but I want to hear what Iec thinks about it first. And yes, fitz, I will explain why I FoS'ed you in due time.

[Kdub]

Iec, what is your opinion now on LL and me in light of SpyreX's flip?

[Kdub]

I decided lay low for a bit after SpyreX's death and see how players would react. If Iec was scum, as I had been suspecting, I would have expected him to either continue his push against me/LL while citing WIFOM ("scum killed SpyreX to make me look bad/make them look good"), OR to justify him moving off LL and moving in another direction. It seemed like the LL wagon stalled in light of her claim, and Iec was probably the next most-suspected player, so there would be clear motivation for him to pursue either of these routes if he were scum and thought he couldn't get LL lynched. Instead...well he didn't really do a whole lot of anything. He claims to still suspect me/LL, but his level of aggression doesn't strike me as the way opportunistic scum would react to a day kill that he was a part of. I think My earlier reasoning for suspecting Iec still is valid, but I admit that the last couple pages have made me feel better about him.

UNVOTE:

Now on to fitz. Post 210, on the other hand, is very much like what I would have expected scum who killed SpyreX to do. He uses SpyreX's flip to justify a town read on LL, and he makes a comment about looking into SpyreX's opinions...oh guess what, he suspected Iecerint! Up to this point, fitz has said very little about Iec aside from a disagreement about him finding me/SpyreX scummy, but even this post had very little indication that he thought Iec was suspicious because of that. I'd rather not join the wall-of-quotes war that the two of them are getting into, but suffice to say, fitz's reason for voting Iec after the fact boils down to "SpyreX suspected him" and not much else. The rest of his case is either rehashing Iec's me/SpyreX suspicion or trying to push an argument about him buddying with Fate (in which he uses LOLmath to suggest that there is a 2/3 chance that Iec is scum).

VOTE: havingfitz

[Kdub]

I was hoping to avoid quote wars, but oh well.

What reason are you attributing to me for killing SpyreX?

I thought this was obvious from my post? Your reason for killing SpyreX would be to push an Iec wagon.

Lie. SpyreX's flip has absolutely nothing to do with my read on LLd and nowhere do I make any connection between the two.

While you did unvote her after her claim, in 210 you said "So SpyreX is town and IMO, Fate = town and LLD =~town." I took that to mean that SpyreX's flip contributed to your town read on LL, considering that he was defending her, but I can see that there is some ambiguity there. I'll concede this point.

How much suspicion foreplay do you require to put a vote on someone?

Depends on several factors. The reason I called you out for this is because you seemed to vote Iec purely based on SpyreX's flip. In 236, you do attempt to build a case, but all of this is after the fact, and I already said why I don't think it amounts to much.

What is the scumtell you are trying to highlight?

It's not so much a tell, but rather scum motivation. I see you using SpyreX's flip to justify pushing a lynch, but when the rest of the case is either rehashing of old argument or poor logic, I perceive that as scum having killed SpyreX and using that as an impetus to switch from a failed wagon (LL) to a new one.

---

Something's bugging me about Kast this game as well. I can't explain exactly why, maybe it's meta or something, but his posts do not feel town to me.

[Kdub]

That directly contrasts with your actions.
#214 - You FOS fitz in the very first post after SpyreX's death
#226 - You speculate that it's mostly a scum kill & "I will have more to say on the implications of SpyreX's death"

If your real aim was to scumhunting by observing reactions to the claim, you wouldn't have said anything and certainly wouldn't have tipped possible scum-off by either FOSing them or even saying "I will have more to say on it, but I want to see what you guys say first" .. It looks like scum-trying-to-scumhunt than actual townie scumhunting ..

Laying low =/= not posting anything whatsoever. I was mainly interested in Iecerint's reaction in particular rather than fitz's since fitz had already posted. Not sure what scum behavior you are trying to suggest here. If I were scum, why would I lie about wanting to observe reactions?

[Kdub]

To be clear, Kdub isn't a strong scum case; I still prefer kunk and will switch if there is support for it. However, I don't think kunk is a plausible lynch at the moment, and with the low amount of content he is posting, I don't see enough material to reasonably convince others to switch over.

To paraphrase, "I'm not going to try to push a case against lurkers (even ones I think are more likely to be scum) because they aren't posting enough". Considering how little you have said about why you think kunk is scum, this looks like you being lazy and hopping on an "acceptable" wagon instead of making a case against a suspect.

@ Amrun #268:
- My vote on Iec was pretty clearly my first vote with serious reasoning. Your first two points are not valid if you look at context.
- I'm not even sure what you "dislike" about my earlier case against Iecerint. You keep saying "I dislike that he did this...." without saying why those things are either wrong or scummy.
- I did not FoS fitz for assuming SpyreX was a scumkill. Not sure how you got that. I also don't see where you get the 3/4 number, the only time I brought up numbers was in reference to fitz suggesting there was a 2/3 chance that Iec was scum. This last point really makes me question whether you read my posts at all.

Edit: I'm not claiming unless someone announces intent to hammer. Kast's vote on me is crap, and Fate and ABR have given no reasons for their votes at all.

[Kdub]

I don't see how the SpyreX kill being a scumkill in your eyes leads you to FoS fitz.

That's not what you originally said though. You said that I FoSed fitz because

he

assumed SpyreX was a scumkill, which is not true. The fact that you are not admitting this and continue to push ahead in trying to use this to find me scummy in any way is extremely stubborn at best.

Kdub, what is your read on Iecerint?

Conflicted, but if I had to take a stand, I'm leaning town right now.

[Kdub]

Amrun:
You acknowledged a different mistake than the one I pointed out, but if you're conceding the point, whatever. I think your reasons for voting me are wrong and/or misguided for the reasons I pointed out earlier, but really, your vote is probably one of the better-motivated ones of the people on my wagon, which says a lot more more about the other voters than it does about you.

Kast:
You did mention some things early on that you didn't like about kunk, but there is nothing in your iso resembling a case or an attempt to question him, nor are you actively trying to convince anybody to vote him. It looks like you just skipped over your top suspect for the sake of jumping on the biggest wagon. This behavior might be reasonable if you had pushed a case strongly on him and it was clear nobody was agreeing, or if we were close to the deadline and there was time pressure to get a lynch together, but neither of those things is true.

bv:
So you think me and fitz could be scum together, or do you suspect us independently? What is your opinion of SpyreX's death and people's reactions to it?

So I have two people (Fate and ABR) voting me for unstated reasons, another (bv) saying he agrees with my wagon for unstated reasons, and two people (Kast and Amrun) voting me apparently by default because they don't see anything better. Yeah, OK.

[Kdub]

Nope.

[Kdub]

Kdub, time to claim ...

bv hasn't expressly stated intent to hammer yet, but since nobody seems to be moving and Fate is calling for a quickhammer, I will claim.

I am Belle from Beauty and the Beast. I am a Loving Enhancer. At night, I can target someone and they will be able to perform any action they have twice. However, if they are killed that same night, I die as well. I can target someone with an active ability tonight so they can confirm my power, but obviously I would not reveal in advance who that is unless that person gets protected. Obviously it's a swingy ability, but it's provable, and hopefully everyone can see how such an ability can't possibly be a scum power for balance reasons.

Regardless of what people think of my claim, at least force bv to justify his reads and look more closely at Kast and why he is voting me instead of making any serious effort to build a case on his supposed top suspect in kunk.

[Kdub]

Also, I've given this some thought,

I propose a mass-claim at this juncture.

Are you still in favor of this in light of Fate's claim about LL?

Fate's lying to push his lynch through. If he had role related reasons, why didn't he claim them earlier when I first claimed?

That was my initial thought, but if Fate was scum, what motive does he have for doing so now?

It's no risk for her, because when I flip town, she pins it on Fate.

So is it your opinion that Fate is town? And he is doing this for what reason? If he's lying to push your lynch through, I would think that "pinning it on Fate" would be a good thing, right?

I did have a bit of a town read on LL, but with Fate claiming role info out of the blue and no other objective evidence suggesting that he's lying, I'd support an LL lynch today. Looking back at my main suspects (fitz and Kast), I definitely could see an LL-Kast connection with Kast trying to distance but keeping his vote elsewhere. fitz is a bit tougher because he voted her at a point when he had an opportunity to push a kunk wagon, but he did unvote pretty quickly after her claim.

Not going to vote yet until others weigh in on the situation.

UNVOTE:

If I were Kdub, for example, I wouldn't have said that I die when my target is killed. I just would have completely omited that part.

I considered it, but there are too many potential issues down the road. If there came a point where I needed to use my ability but there was a chance my target would die, I'd have to either explain why I didn't use my ability (like that would go over well) or risk having us deal with an unforseen extra death. I don't think claiming that gives the scum too much information since I'm not planning to announce my targets beforehand.

Kdub is still my vote for today.

Reason? Considering that you had earlier stated that everything that happened earlier was throwaway data, how are you justified in keeping your vote on me when we have a 1v1?

[Kdub]

LL:
I am trying to look at this in terms of scum motivation. Suppose Fate is lying scum. Why would he suddenly pull this gambit now instead of earlier? The timing, and to an extent the action itself, makes no sense (scum generally don't want to trade lynches). Aside from that, Fate doesn't strike me as the type of player who would sacrifice himself as scum. He'd try to get one of his buddies to do it because he has a stronger influence over the day game than most people.

[Kdub]

LL, any results from last night?

[Kdub]

Were you informed that you got two uses of your ability?

Nobody else say anything until she answers.

[Kdub]

Well something is up, because I targeted you last night after what ooba said.

[Kdub]

I figured scum would try to roleblock his doubling power.

See, I would have assumed instead that they would roleblock you. My power is swingy, and it was somewhat likely that I was going to target you, so blocking you would potentially take care of both issues. That they didn't do so tells me that something else is going on here.

If we assume that RC is resolving night actions the same way he did it in Blackest Night, that means my action is unblockable and un-redirectable. As such, you at least should have been told that you received a second use of your power, regardless of what you ended up doing with it.

I'd like to wait for everyone to check in, but barring any new information, I'm good with either a fitz or Kast lynch today.

[Kdub]

I think ooba was saying that HE couldn't be blocked last night, not you.

[Kdub]

- Went through Blackest night Mafia. Like Kdub said, both Redirector and Roleblocker appear higher on the resolution list.
- Resolution order comes into picture only when there is paradox. (Like Motivator on Roleblocker who roleblocks the motivator). Otherwise can see the motivator as being RB-able. I don't see Kdub scum talking about the action resolution point of Blackest Night.

I took a look at the Blackest Night role PMs, and my ability is this game is worded very similarly to the enhancer ability (Andrius's role) in BN. In that game, that ability, along with my enabler/inventor ability, were unblockable due to potential action resolution conflicts. I have to assume that the same applies to this game. There are a few possibilities I can think of:
- LL is lying and actually did receive two shots of her ability last night. I'm not exactly sure why she would do this as scum, since it puts her night actions into question as much as mine.
- The scum have a similar type of instant-resolution ability that could interfere with mine, and RC is resolving conflicting actions using time of submission. FWIW, I submitted my action roughly a day after the night phase started. I'm going to send him a PM and try to get clarification.
- If LL is telling the truth about missing the deadline, maybe she wouldn't have been told about getting two shots until after her initial submission. I'm not sure why RC would do things this way, but it's a possibility.

[Kdub]

There is no indication in my role PM that it only works on town, so I assume it works on all players regardless of alignment.

[Kdub]

Ooba said that the unblockable angle would've only applied in the event of a contradictory situation. Is he incorrect?

I think so. Consider this example: I target LLD. She gets two uses of her ability and uses them on whomever. Later in the night, the scum send in a roleblock on me. Oops, LLD shouldn't have been told that she got two actions. I brought this up with the mods during BN because I had a similar role, and it was strongly suggested that my actions were unblockable. But like I said, I sent a PM to RC to clarify a few things, so I'm waiting for his reply.

[Kdub]

I would say A is the closest. It says (paraphrasing) they may perform an action twice. The language does not imply anything about using "another" ability.

[Kdub]

I got a non-answer from RC. Not helpful, but I guess not too surprising.

[Kdub]

My questions to RC were fairly general, and he basically said he can't tell me when or how things resolve. I don't think further questioning is going to get anywhere.

[Kdub]

You don't have to ask about resolution at all; you can just ask about what your ability DOES. As in, does the target have to use an action that night for your ability to have an effect: y/n.

OK, I will ask him about this.

LLD and Kdub were not roleblocked by town.

I think you had better explain.

[Kdub]

So my understanding is that if I use my power on someone without an active ability, nothing happens. If I use it on someone who does have an active ability, RC was not able to tell me what would happen or in what order.

Like I said, the ability is worded very similarly to the enhancer ability in Blackest Night, so I assume it works in the same way.

[Kdub]

@Kdub-
I've been assuming that your target is made aware that they have a doubled action if your ability is successful. Is that actually the case?

My role PM doesn't explicitly say so, but I assume that must be the case, otherwise how else would they know about it?

[Kdub]

I've already asked RC about that, he's not answering.

I did not receive any flavor PMs last night. Did anyone else?

[Kdub]

Amrun:
I'm not seeing how your claim leads you to conclude anything about whether myself or LLD were roleblocked by scum last night. Also, when you use your thief ability, does the person you target lose that ability?

fitz:
I'm not keeping my case on you hidden, I suspect you for the same reasons I suspected you yesterday, though I am still thinking through all the new developments today.

Here's the issue I'm having with LLD. If she were scum, and I actually did enhance her last night, why would she be claiming to have missed her action? If she wanted to lie about it to make me look bad, wouldn't she have just claimed to have not gotten a second ability use?

[Kdub]

Her claimed role never really make any sense. It's too simple for RC's standards; compare it to the Tracker hybrid role from the original B&B game (mine!) where Zelda could transform into Sheik to perform doctor or tracker roles....

This is a decent point that I hadn't considered. Maybe massclaim would clear things up. Hmm...what's everyone else thinking here? People have been flipping back and forth on massclaiming.

You think town has more than two roleblockers?

Who said anything about two town roleblockers? You said that me and LLD were not roleblocked by scum. How does Robo's flip plus your claim prove that?

So in summary...you think I'm suspect because you think I killed Spyrex to push a case on Iece despite the fact I haven't done this.

You didn't say it directly, but you did clearly disagree with Iec being suspicious of me and SpyreX (this was just before SpyreX was killed), then you say afterwards that you were going to look into SpyreX's opinions to get reads. Guess who he suspected and who you threw a vote down on in the same post?

Why is Kdub confirmed town again? Or is he?

I am not. Since you didn't comment on it, what is your opinion of my claimed action and LLD saying she never got anything?

LLD not getting any result is just too convenient. Even after oomba's ability made sure the double PR gift reached her. Also not getting a notification of a double PR seems very odd. Likely scum can't benefit from the double PR gift.

This actually reminded me of something. I already mentioned that my role PM says nothing about affecting town or scum differently, so I had been assuming that it affected both. However, I remembered that RC made a comment in the aftermath of Blackest Night about how he would have done things differently, here. The relevant quote:

Roles like Enhancer, Enabler, Doctor, etc., would not only work on town, but would work on scum as well. This would help out the non-Black scum quite a bit more. (But I'd probably make them only work on the PR abilities like Block/Frame/etc., i.e., no doubling of NKs.)

If he took his own advice, my power should work on scum PRs, but not the factional kill.

That still doesn't explain why she got no notification though.

[Kdub]

When did I say kdub and lld weren't roleblocked by scum? I said they weren't roleblocked EXCEPT if by scum - hence asking ooba the likelihood of that being in the set up.

My bad, I misread your post.

[Kdub]

I'm not voting for you.

[Kdub]

I still don't see the scum motivation behind LLD's behavior today. Guess we'll find out for sure whenever RC gets back.

[Kdub]

Mass claim sounds fine. I would like the player I targeted last night to claim whether they received two actions or not. Obviously if they claim a passive ability, it won't matter. I'll say who I targeted after the claims are done.

I did not receive any PMs again last night with flavor or any info. Did others?

[Kdub]

I'm OK with following ooba's order, provided he has a good explanation for it when he claims.

[Kdub]

If you don't have role related reasons for the claim order, then I think we should just popcorn it, with exceptions like Iec wanting to claim after fitz (provided the players who request exceptions can explain when the claim).

[Kdub]

Anyway we're not popcorning, we're going with ooba's order.

Do you have a good reason for wanting ooba's order that you can explain when it is your turn to claim?

[Kdub]

Fine, but I'll ask you about it again after the claims are done.

[Kdub]

I'm the witch of the west or the east or some bullshit like that, my ability is to send anonymous messages to players or post an anonymous announcement, I'm not allowed to reveal who I am.

I never used my ability, it's scummy as fuck

It's provable though. Can you send as many messages as you want?

Full flavor + results Iecerint

Agree with this^

[Kdub]

No, it's 3-shot and I can do 1 a night.

I think you should submit a message tonight then.

Let's finish the claim first.

[Kdub]

N2 I targeted Fate. I thought his attitude toward LLD D2 was incredibly bizarre, and I wanted to be able to counter whatever he had planned for D3 given that he was scum.

However, flavor indicated that I found that I was too tired and didn't want to get out of bed. So I could not investigate a player, not even Fate. So I stayed in bed til D3.

That seems far less detailed than your N1 claim (although if you were blocked, I guess it makes sense). Is this the extent of the flavor you got last night?

[Kdub]

I am going to claim my action. I enhanced Iecerint last night. The fact that he didn't receive even a hint of flavor about me is troubling. Even if he were roleblocked, I would suspect (based on the first B&B game) that he should have gotten some clue.

As I said, I got no flavor from the mod either night.

[Kdub]

I claimed yesterday already...

[Kdub]

Scum did have safeclaims in the first B&B, but they were pretty weak. I wasn't even planning to use mine and was just going to make up my own because it was some character I had never heard of, although I think RC said after the game that he should have given stronger safeclaims.

[Kdub]

fitz, at what point during N2 did you submit your action?

I suspect that RC may be using time of submission to determine certain action resolutions.

[Kdub]

I'm

Red Riding Hood

and I'm a

Beloved Princess

(reason I wasn't too thrilled about massclaim).

Can you paraphrase flavor? Considering the theme of this game, Red Riding Hood does not strike me as a likely fairy tale character to be a beloved princess.

[Kdub]

ooba, when did you submit your action during N2?

My ability is just called "Enhance".

[Kdub]

ooba, when did you submit your action during N2?

My ability is just called "Enhance".

Within 1.5 hours of the D2 flip ..

In that case, you submitted before me, and it is plausible that your action resolved before mine did and prevented it from occurring.

[Kdub]

Fate: Does your ability allow you to bus drive yourself? I should have thought to ask that sooner.

[Kdub]

i cant drive mslf i asked that pregame

Didn't you find it strange then that Kast claimed to have busdrove himself on N1? Why would two busdrive abilities work differently?

[Kdub]

Why didn't you say something about it when he first claimed it?

[Kdub]

I think self-busdrives are sometimes allowed, but it's definitely less common. I'm a bit wary of Fate not having questioned Kast's claim (especially if he specifically asked about self-busdrives pregame). However, Kast's beloved princess claim seems sketchy to me, both because of flavor, and because it's actually the perfect claim if there is a day SK (which only the scum could be sure about at this point) - the town doesn't want to lynch him in case he is telling the truth, and a day SK does not want to kill him because an extra night phase doesn't benefit them. I agree that it is correct to not lynch Kast until it gets to a potential lylo (in case we are wrong), and I will point out that Kast being scum does not automatically clear Fate (although it makes it more likely that Fate is town).

I don't necessarily think there can't two mass-block actions in the game, although it does seem unlikely, and even less likely that both actions (if real) are town. ooba's play seems consistent with town motivation (wanting to claim last because he wanted to catch scum), and I've been more suspicious of fitz's play so far.

I'm null on ABR. I don't think his claim automatically implicates him, both because I can see RC throwing a role like Wicked Witch into the setup to arouse suspicion, and because I'm not sure why he would claim that since presumably (based on the rest of our claims), the scum have reasonable safeclaims.

I think I'd prefer to lynch fitz today, and force ABR to use his power to post a message tomorrow morning. Presumably, if he is scum, using that power would prevent him from taking other actions. I agree that if we don't hit scum today, I will not use my power tonight.

[Kdub]

I think I'd prefer to lynch fitz today, and force ABR to use his power to post a message tomorrow morning. Presumably, if he is scum, using that power would prevent him from taking other actions. I agree that if we don't hit scum today, I will not use my power tonight.

Unless ABR is the SK, his scumbuddies can still submit the kill and he can post his message. What would be the point of that plan?

Aside from proving his ability claim, if ABR is scum and he has additional abilities that are actually useful, it would prevent him from using those.

[Kdub]

Can we wait until fitz can confirm with the mod that his ability didn't actually get used up last night? Assuming NAR applies, I would think both your claimed mass blocks would have resolved last night because they had similar priority. The reason I suggested that time of submission might matter for my action is because it is fundamentally different in that it modifies an action the very same night in a way that requires an additional action from my target.

If fitz can confirm that he still has his action available (I don't see why RC wouldn't tell him this), then I'd be willing to go along with your plan.

[Kdub]

We shouldn't lynch Kast today, even if he is more likely to be scum than Fate. We make a decision on Kast if we get to lylo, that seems like the safest way to proceed.

ooba isn't cleared, but I don't see any reason to suspect him at the moment. Not sure why ABR thinks he is scum.

I'm maintaining my position that we wait to hear from fitz about his action. There's no reason why RC would ignore your question. At the very least, he would respond and say he can't tell you, like he did when I asked about my role.

[Kdub]

What? We need to lynch Kast if he's town two days b4 lylo, or some math, aka today right?

There's 9 players left. Assuming 3 scum, then a normal mislynch today and a town death tonight means tomorrow is lylo. If we lynch Kast today and he's town, then scum can kill twice tonight, town loses. If there is an SK that can kill at night, it introduces some swinginess, but I think it's still most likely bad for town. The safest way to deal with Kast, unless we are very certain that he is scum, is to lynch him if it gets to lylo (so his claimed beloved princess doesn't matter) or after we have caught the rest of the scum and he's the most likely one left.

[Kdub]

Well, if fitz can't confirm whether he can use his ability or not, then ooba's plan isn't going to work. I'm leaning toward lynching fitz today in that case. Thoughts?

[Kdub]

Ugh, thought about it a bit more and now I'm not so sure. If fitz was scum, presumably his team realized that there was a mass block, or even if they didn't, he could be proven a liar if somebody got a definitive result. So he's probably telling the truth about having a mass block, having claimed before ooba.

[Kdub]

Fate wouldn't be a terrible lynch because if he flips town, that basically confirms Kast as scum due to the discrepancy between the bus driver mechanics.

The problem is, I think Fate is probably town.

[Kdub]

Oh, you're right, I misread his claim. He did just say he could protect all, not block all. OK, well that clears up the misgivings I was having.

VOTE: havingfitz

[Kdub]

I guess I'm willing to accept the modscene as confirmation of ABR's ability, though it certainly isn't what I had in mind when he first claimed it. It doesn't prove alignment, but I don't think RC would have put in that flavor on his own, so the ability seems legit.

I'd like Kast and Fate to claim their actions last night please.

[Kdub]

I targeted Amrun last night. And I'm still alive. That's why I was asking Fate and Kast to claim, to see if either of them were responsible.

Fate?

[Kdub]

Fate, did you do something last night that could have interfered with my action?

[Kdub]

@Kdub-
Hmm one other thought/possibility. If you doubled Amrun, then it's possible Amrun double

Thief

ed and used one

Thief

to block me. I kinda doubt this since it doesn't fit with the flavor that I got or the flavor that Iec got. It also doesn't help explain how you survived while Amrun died.

Also, is it possible you were mistaken about you dying when your target dies (or is it a % chance to die ability)?

Nope, the description of my ability is quite clear. If I enhance someone and they are killed that night, I die as well. The only possible conclusion is that my ability did not successfully reach Amrun.

[Kdub]

OK, just trying to figure this out for myself.

- Iec targeted Kast. Flavor suggests that he did indeed target Kast and found that he was RRH
- Kast busdrove himself with Fate, flavor suggests he was roleblocked
- Fate redirected Iec to Kast
- I tried to target Amrun but my action apparently did not reach her. I got no flavor last night, so I have no idea if I was blocked. I have not gotten any flavor on any of the nights

So if Kast actually was blocked, as appears to be the case, then what happened with my action? Scum are unlikely to have two roleblockers, right?

2. My flavor is consistent with Kast being roleblocked (as above).

I don't see anything in your paraphrased flavor that suggests this.

@Kdub-
May be best to not use your power (or at least not use it the second night phase).

Whatever happens today, I'll probably use the same strategy as yesterday of using my power if we lynch scum (not that my power seems to be working...)

[Kdub]

Hmm...they could have redirected me to scum so that they would get two uses of whatever ability. That might be a better move for them.

[Kdub]

Alright, I think I'm convinced enough to go for a Fate lynch today. Iec is likely town because his claimed actions are consistent and helped lead to fitz's lynch, and although I find Kast's play more suspicious, I believe Iec's investigation.

Are we waiting on anybody else to weigh in on anything?

[Kdub]

If I were scum, I could've redirected you where I pleases like you said.

You may have done exactly that, as was mentioned above.

AND you find Kast's play more suspicious.

So "Lol flavor result" clears it?

Do you have a better explanation for Iec's result?

[Kdub]

VOTE: Fate

[Kdub]

Kdub, you framed your earlier vote on Fate as a result of a Fate/Iec dichotomy. What do you think about ABR?

It's more of a Fate/Kast dichotomy that indirectly involves you because your investigation result supports Kast. I'm reasonably satisfied by ABR's claimed action and how it appeared to affect the flavor text. It doesn't prove he is town, but I don't think I'd lynch him today over Fate.

[Kdub]

"Abr proved his ability, therefore I'd lynch fate over him trololol"

That's more than can be said for your ability. Me wanting to lynch you is independent of ABR's ability.

[Kdub]

The more time goes by without more day kills, the more I think that there is no SK. It makes no sense from a hypothetical day-SK standpoint to not kill as often as possible.

- Two roleblock claims? (Kast, Kdub) - At least one is scum.

I'm thinking I might not have been roleblocked and the scum are instead redirecting me onto themselves. If they have both a block and a redirect, that seems to make the most sense.

[Kdub]

This game was pretty crazy, but I guess that was to be expected based on the first B&B game. Excellent flavor text as always. I didn't see ooba being the SK, but I felt pretty sure about Kast as scum after Fate flipped town. I didn't really follow D5, so I'm not sure why Kast wasn't lynched.

Kdub's delay-death resolves, but for some reason he wastes his last chance to Enhance?

Mod Note: Dying via Enhancing the kill target is delayed, and resolves one day/night cycle after the target dies.

I wish this was told to me in my role PM. As given, I didn't enhance the last night because I thought I would die immediately if my target was killed, which would have lost us the game. I didn't know that I already was going to die anyway.