Time Travel Mafia (Game Over)

[RedCoyote]

Spoiler: Quick Notes

1 Mafia, no third parties
Discussion phase (lynch or no lynch; need 2/3 players) (1.1.3 what if we choose no lynch or don't choose something before the deadline?)
Send Mod a list of all players in order of lynch preference (even dead ones... interesting)
Top two players from every list = count as vote?
Two people will be selected from the compilation of all players' lists and only given one "defense" post
Have to send mod another list? (1.3.3 what if a player not in the "top two" gets more votes?)
Time Traveling means only moving day->day not day->night
Move between D1 and N10
2.1.5 do not understand, need clarification
actions need to target living players in that time
2.3.2 define temporal paradox? I'm assuming this means, like, shooting yourself in a previous time?

I've got five questions about the setup,

Mod

. If you could indulge me as best as you can, I'd appreciate it.

1.) In regards to 1.1.3, what happens if we choose no lynch or do not successfully reach a 2/3 vote during the discussion phase?
2.) In regards to 1.2.3, what if there is a tie in the number of votes during the nomination phase for either the first or second place finishers?
3.) In regards to 1.3.3, what happens if a player who wasn't in the top two during the nomination phase gets more list votes during the lynch phase?
4.) In regards to 2.1.5, can you just dumb that whole rule down for me? Or perhaps elaborate it some? Like, when you say "new time", you mean the time that the traveling player traveled to? When you say the player is not affected by actions that happen to him in the original time, does this include lynches?
5.) In regards to 2.3.2, could you define temporal paradox for us and/or give us an example of this, please?

[RedCoyote]

I'm confirming that I understand my role and win condition.

---

Please tell me I'm not the only one who needs to read the rules another 27 times?

No, lol. It took me a few times. I still have a lot of questions.

---

nameclaim: The Doctor

Discuss.

I don't believe you.

---

On a related note, we put NO ONE at L-1 without planning. L-2 is the HIGHEST we go, because otherwise a time traveling scum shot could flip the lynch target.

In other words, we're going to discuss our lists beforehand, yes?

I fully agree with this approach for the time being.

Everyone needs to take a heaping slice of humble pie in regards to the lists. I'm assuming the Mod will not be interested in a list with a bunch of "five players tied for last" in it. Don't be afraid to rank people.

---

We need to include any dead mafiates at the top of every lynching list. It would be incredibly not funny to have a single surviving mafiate go back several days and take out the vig and/or doc, while reviving teammates.

Agreed. Good point in bringing this up, btw.


---

You scumhunt and interact, once you feel confident in a scum-read of some sort, then you vote for the lynch phase to start.

It's not rocket science. Treat it like it's mafia until it isn't mafia.

Discussion Phase (Who are we nominating? Why? What Order? [16 DAYS - 6 DAYS]) -> Nomination Phase (Everyone get your nominations in! [48 HOURS]) -> Lynch Phase (Why should you be saved, X? Everyone get your final vote lists in! [48 HOURS]) -> Night Phase (zzz [72 HOURS]

And then it repeats again.

Of course the time traveling mechanic will screw with this a little bit, but this is the basic format if you want a cliff notes version of what's going on (not you specifically, Exe, but I'm just sort of talking this through in my head and using your quote as a springboard for others that read this post).

---

What is your opinion of policy lynches and Lynch all Lurkers/Lynch all Liars in particular?
Have you played with any of the people in this game before?
How active are you?

No absolutes in either way. Lurkers are generally a safe D1 lynch barring anything else though. Lying should be assessed on its own merits.
I've played with everyone except Trow and Ranger, I believe.
Not very active by MS standards. Very active by my own standards.

---

I voted for lynch because I do have a clear scum candidate and didn't see the harm in one person voting lynch.

I don't like how nonchalant of an attitude you have here. First off, you're not the only one voting lynch right now. Second, you're coming off too strong for my tastes. Third, I don't think you understood the mechanics exactly (you admitted as such), and, thus, are guilty at least to a degree of trying to move this game along too quickly.

I'm not saying your scum for not understanding the game (I've still got questions myself), but I don't like this tone in general where you're kind of casually dismissing Grey's points altogether.

---

I wasn't rolefishing. I was joking. <<End of discussion.

"End of discussion"?

Excuse me, you're the one who brought it up. You told us to discuss it.

So, if the discussion is over, what did you learn from your joke?

[RedCoyote]

That no one gets Doctor Who references.

You know what? I actually can accept this. 99% of the time I'm a big supporter of the "you can't explain a joke" philosophy, but I guess this is one of the few exceptions to that rule. I don't watch the show, but I know enough about it to understand the joke here now. I hereby retract my criticism.

---

1. As soon as deadline of a day hits, the game enters nomination phase.

Sorry to be a stickler about this, Mod, but I'm still confused. Even if we vote not to lynch, we'll still go into the nomination phase as usual? I just don't quite understand. If you can elaborate, what would happen in such a scenario? Would there still be a lynch phase?

I understand all the other clarifications though. Thanks.

---

Exe...

Did you not finish this sentence?

---

Joking=scum? What is this I don't even...

Well, Amrun is not looking to hot right now. She just admitted that she understood Kcda's joke, but in the quote you just pointed out, it doesn't seem like she does. I don't know, if she would've got the reference, why wouldn't she have just brought it up earlier with something like, "So, I take it this is a Doctor Who joke, Kcda? You know, that's not funny, seriously. That's not a thing to joke about".

Obviously not verbatim, but something along those lines.

[RedCoyote]

Well, obviously he wasn't being serious.

I don't think you're being completely honest with us, Amrun.

First you say you had to read the rules over multiple times, then you criticized Grey for clarifying the rules.
Then you say you understood the Doctor Who reference before Kcda brought it up, but, when pressed, you now just admitted you "didn't get it immediately, but eventually figured it out".

[RedCoyote]

I didn't get the reference, but that's what I'm saying. You're being vague for no reason. Okay, look, here's a timeline:

Kcda: I'm the doctor.
Amrun: Rolefish!
Kcda: Lol, just messing around.
Amrun: Nope. Vote to lynch.
Amrun: Kcda's joke was anti-town and definitely uncalled for.
RC: Uh, Kcda, this joke crap... explain it.
Kcda: ...it's a Doctor Who reference.
Amrun: I got that part but you still didn't need to joke about your role.
Doombunny: Eh? Amrun, what?
Amrun: Learn to read, Doombunny. What Kcda did was scummy.
RC: So, wait, Amrun, did you know about the reference or not?
Amrun: I got it, but not immediately.

Something's not right here. You're not being upfront.

And you criticized Grey here. I say Grey because he took point about going easy on the voting to move to the next phase, but you kind of give us all a bratty attitude about that.

[RedCoyote]

Ghostwriter: Why can't you just iso me? I have already explained it. By saying he is some sort of doctor (because someone with the namclaim of doctor would likely also have a doctor role) he has told everyone, including scum, that he is NOT the doctor, because no real dopctor would do that. Scum often go doctor-hunting, and now they know that kcda isn't a doctor.

I see your point, but I don't agree.

---

Why would I push for someone's lynch based solely off of one post?

WIFOM incoming!

*runs for cover*

But seriously, you could've fooled me. You voted to lynch immediately after his post.

You think it's smart to tunnel on someone for one post alone?

WIFOM incoming!

*runs for cover, again*

---

I find it odd that, whilst claiming to want more discussion on Amrun/Kcda, Smargaret does not ask questions of them. Several people have been interested in their interaction, but they usually follow up with questions.

I like this. Good point.

---

Kcd you seem obsessed with Amrun. Why is that?

Neither can I. I'm going to PM the Mod that she's my #1 on my list! <3 <3 <3

But seriously, I agree with your observation. It seems very odd.

---

The votes recorded in the "votecount" don't have any impact on the game, I just thought it would make life easier for everyone.

How sweet!

---

I have a slight scum read on GW for being tunneling and aggro.

Bs. What's wrong with being aggressive? And I completely disagree that he's tunneling. This is just you trying to tack on some fake rationale behind your vote. Not good scumhunting, Kcda. Not good at all.

[RedCoyote]

Exe, I have no problem with putting Ranger high on the list right now, but Doombunny is right. There's just not much else to say at this point.

[RedCoyote]

RC, I voted for Kcdaspot, but votes don't count towards lynch in this game. It's effectively an FoS and I don't see a problem with doing that.

Liar, liar, pants on fire.

Vote: Amrun

Also, I fail to see how asking a direct question of Exe is WIFOM.

Cute. You think I'm going to fall for that? You know full well what you're doing. I've played this game too long. We both know perfectly well what point you were making. WIFOM isn't necessarily scummy, but it sure as heck ain't townie. You trying to act so cute and innocent about it definitely tips it from null to scummy.

By the by, you are actually going on the top of my list, hon. No joke.

---

Working on the assumption of three:

Ranger
Smargret
{Doombunny/EXE}

I look forward to you expanding on this.

---

I forgot that votes were secret. I have bad memory.

Are you going to commit to this game or not? This is the second time you've given us this. Read over the rules or replace out. I know the Mod asked us specifically not to replace out, but, I suspect he would much rather you do it now than after D1.

---

I don't think the questions that Doombunny asked are in any way helpful to finding scum, and thus I see no reason to answer them. That's my general feeling on RQS. I recognize that this feeling isn't terribly common or popular, but it does not reflect on my alignment.

I, for one, could care less if you answer them or not. However, if you choose not to answer them, then you better damn well contribute to the game (not to say that people who

do

answer them don't have to contribute, but you get my point).

Looking over Doombunny9's ISO, he has been consistently posting without doing any serious scum hunting. He's pointed out the problems in other people's theories, and has occasionally agreed with them, but he has yet to put forward any original ideas, and he hasn't done anything to help with finding scum.

I don't get how you could have a scumread on Amrun and a worse one on Doombunny. It's clear that he was helping pressure Amrun here. I mean, did he not, in your opinion, do so genuinely? You say that he's not doing any serious scumhunting, but one of his main targets is Amrun. This just seems a little backwards when you say this.

---

Of note on this last one is the last line. Apparently, you can catch scum with the first one being used as the majority of discussion.

Also, note that he says that we should have more going on by page 3 of a game with extremely weird mechanics. Before that post, Amrun began to suspect Kcda, Smar had begun pointing at Amrun about interaction with Kcda, Exe was pressuring Kcda, and Trow was pressuring Exe. Seems like a good start to me, whilst discussing game related mechanics. I assume mafia know a bit more of the mechanics than we do and he wanted to keep it that way. The buddying to me he feels like he's been doing also bugs me. Especially when talking about Kcda buddying to Amrun.

This is a much better observation than Ranger put together. I think you make some good points here and have some creditable ideas. This gives my Doombunny townread a bit of a blow, for sure.

---

Do we want to release the top three living names on our lists? I'm worried that if we don't and if scum communicates we could wind up with two obvious townies on the chopping block.

I'm releasing my whole list, and I encourage others to do the same. Now, if people don't want to based on silly political views that "townreads should be hidden" or whatever, then, okay, I'm not going to push on that too hard. I don't want to get into a political debate over townreads. Let's just make a truce that if someone doesn't want to give out their townreads, I won't get pissy at them, but, in turn, they can't get pissy when I release my full list. If someone has a problem with this, they need to speak up.

---

Top 3 if we went right now?

1) Chronopie

Quit trolling.

Amrun on kcda is not scum on scum, try again smarg. This time with less waffles.

Maybe not, but one of them is scum and we can stand to lose them both. Just sayin'.

Skimming the thread is one thing. He didn't even bother to check what was going on, just called the biggest debate TvT. Which was Amrun v. kcdaspot... and he didn't even remember Amrun.

I'll give you this. I think he skimmed too, but that is certainly not the biggest scumtell around. Get real, Grey. Especially with all your page 4 nonsense, I think you're doing this for the shock value more than anything else.

---

The last time I see you listing suspects is on Saturday afternoon, Amrun - has nothing changed in your opinion since then?

What's your point? This is kind of antsy sounding. Why would she change her suspicions every two days? It's not like there were any big revelations since then. I don't know what you're trying to get at here.

---

Essentially, you're doing exactly what Chrono is doing: attempting to appear pro-town by calling for relevant discussion, without actually giving any relevant discussions.
Also, your apology for your absence shows that you're clearly more concerned with making peace to notice the real issue, which is a scumtell in my book.

I agree with this completely, but it should be noted that Chrono has a townie leg to stand on with his first post. Chrono should be seen as town far before Ranger, regardless of either players skimming.

---

I really am town, though. I tend to suck early game as town. I don't know why. This is something I really need to work on.

Oh, cry my a river. "Poor me! I'm so town but I can't get it across! Boo hoo! I don't know why! I promise I'll work on it... just don't suspect me, please! ;_;"

kcdaspot and I are OBVIOUSLY not scum together. I mean, seriously. It should be obvious.

No, that's not obvious at all. It's perfectly standard for scum to distance from their buddies. It's not "obvious" that people who suspect each other can't be scum together.

To clarify, to say that both kcdaspot and I are both scum without some sort of extensive explanation as to how this is possible (which I have not seen) is just throwing vague suspicion on the two people that have stirred up the most shit so far and looks very much like opportunistic scum to me.

I've got a perfect reasoning. I don't care for either of y'alls play so it wouldn't phase me in the slightest with losing either of you as town for the chance at lynching one or both of you as scum.

The fact that you're so virulently against it just makes me want to do it more, you know.

---

amrun.. Chrono has the worst post all game. and so... why am i still scum on page 10?

What a horrible reason. You care to elaborate, or are you perfectly fine with looking like you're piggybacking on Grey?

Oh, by the way, why me = fry me, friend.

---

Hell, RC goes missing once in a while. 0.0

It's not really missing, I just don't post as often as you guys do. I don't check the site from my phone. I work and go to school full time. When I log on, I like to catch up on all of my games in one extended sitting for the most part.

Anyways, Amrun knows I've been afk since we're in another game together, she's just trying to make some noise in order to call attention away from her scumminess.

---

1. Amrun
   
2. Kcdaspot
   
3. RangeroftheNorth
   
4. smargaret
   
5. Mist7676
   
6. Doombunny9
   
7. Tragedy
   
8. MrTrow
   
9. Exe
   
10. GreyICE
    
11. Chronopie
    
12. GhostWriter

I'll probably be putting my list in every post from this point forth. It's 12 players long because I'm obviously on the bottom of my list (as I'd expect everyone else to put themselves).

[RedCoyote]

Would you like to direct me to this supposed "lie?". I don't see it.

• RC, I voted for Kcdaspot, but votes don't count towards lynch in this game. It's effectively an FoS and I don't see a problem with doing that.

  Damnit.
  
  VOTE: Lynch

Again, quit playing dumb, hon. You're scheming, and you're being dishonest. This is a consistent pattern.

Also I didn't mention just you specifically with lurkers. It was still true. Go vGla if you're not available.

Well, I'm not V/LA, so I'm not going to be doing that. It's not my problem that you check the thread every six hours.

---

It's not town on town? Why.

Did you read my post? Amrun just flat out lied (see above), she's serving up WIFOM by the bushel-full (which wouldn't be necessarily bad except for the fact that she tries to play it off like she doesn't know she's doing it), she's making patently false allegations that Kcda and her cannot be scum together to try and buy either herself or Kcda town credit, and she's using self-pity as a manipulative tool to get people to not suspect her.

Kcda is effectively hopping on your back and having you do his heavy lifting, he's completely focused on Amrun for seemingly no reason since he has said multiple times that he thinks she's town, and, the classic, why me = fry me. That's no joke, btw. I hold anyone's feet to the fire who'll go off on the "why me?" line of defense. It's too self-interested.

Ask yourself if you would cry if we lost either of these players D1.

---

Guys stop voting people! They dont count!

You're more than welcome not to vote, but I expect to see at least your two nominees on the top of your list, if not your whole list.

---

I find it amusing (read: scummy) that Mist pops in, posts fluff, votes to lynch, and doesn't provide a list or ask any sort of question. Also, the two questions she's asked have not been followed up on at all - there's definitely something going on as far as Mist not contributing. The reason she and DB are tied for second is because I have more to go on from DB (so I'm more confident in my read), and a DB flip would be more informative in terms of connections than a Mist flip, but Mist is slightly more likely to be scum (very slightly, IMO, but Mist has done more scummy things - I just can't be as certain that they're legitimately scum-motivated and not Mist being Mist) and I haven't figured out which way the balance should tip.

I would not be sad to see Mist gone. She needs to step her game up or she'll find herself back in the stone age.

---

I've said it before, I'll say it again Smarg. Whenever all your scumreads are newer/less experienced/less skilled players, ask yourself if it's really that easy.

Grey, you know I hate that argument with such a passion. It's brought up at least once in every game I play now. It makes you look silly.

If you keep this up you're going to look like the "defender" of Mist and Kcda. Is that what you want?

If you're going to defend someone, I suggest you do so by arguing with someone based on the merits of their suspicions. This, "Mist has a scummy meta because she's 'less experienced'" crap is for the birds. Mist is an independent player of this game that doesn't need to be coddled by you, me, or anyone else.

If Amrun is obvscum to you, then kcda HAS to be town, because this is not a scum double bus.

Gosh, and you're just digging a bigger and bigger hole for yourself, Grey. This is ugly. Really ugly. Oh, I guess it's just a coincidence that Kcda just so happens to be your biggest fan this game?

Because it's STUPID. That's not scum distancing. Like, maybe if that was two great players, yeah, sure, they have a contrived fight in the thread to look town-on-town. But that one didn't succeed in looking town on town, and kcdaspot can't do that. I've lynched him as scum twice so far, and he gets scared of his own shadow under pressure. No damn way that Amrun and him could pull that off.

I deny it because it's FUCKING STUPID

...and here comes the emotional tirade. Yuck. It looks like your just pulled the trifecta: crappy "too newb to be scum" argument, patting Amrun on the back, and losing your cool against a calm smargaret.

Amrun's logic this game = bad
Shadowing Amrun's bad logic after it has been called out as bad = worse

You've got a lot of work to do to work your way back up, my friend.

---

1. Amrun
   
2. Kcdaspot
   
3. RangeroftheNorth
   
4. GreyICE
   
5. Mist7676
   
6. smargaret
   
7. Doombunny9
   
8. Tragedy
   
9. MrTrow
   
10. Exe
    
11. Chronopie
    
12. GhostWriter

[RedCoyote]

What do you mean how is it a lie? You just sat there and said you vote didn't count toward a lynch. I showed you that you voted for a lynch. Period. Whether you misread the rules or not (which I am aware of because I have been keeping up with the thread and specifically you due to my scumread on you), you still did it. I mean, why are you trying to not be held accountable? I'll decide whether I think you "meant" the lynch vote or not on my own. You shouldn't just assume that I will.

I'd also appreciate if you stopped being so condescending to me. Even if I were terrible scum, which I'm not, or terrible town, which I'm kind of bordering on this game for whatever reason, that does not give you the right to treat me like a child.

I'm being overly callous with you because I like you a lot and think you can take it. If you sincerely want me to tone down my rhetoric, then I will do that. It wasn't meant offensively (I'd just as soon you dish it out to me as hard as I am to you), I'm only being cruel because I'm in full-on game mode here. Everything I say to you I say with a smile, even the attacks. <3

[RedCoyote]

Hey Red, it's fucking getting old because it's fucking true.

>implying it's true

If it's anything like anyone's scumlist on day 1, try and figure out how often all 3 scum are in those five players (hint: not often) and how often the person with strong scumreads on people who are 'easy lynches' are scum (quite often).

>implying this is what smargaret did

kcdaspot is obvtown. If you disagree, make a case or fuck off.

>implying I didn't just do this for you

I have no need or desire to appease you. I have no need or desire to go up or down on your scumlist.

>implying it isn't killing you inside

Why is Chronopie town?

>implying we didn't already discuss this

If I'm scum, how come Ranger of the North is up there, when all of your 'major scum suspects' have expressed suspicion of him?

>implying I base my scumhunting on "who could be partners with who" on D1 of a closed setup when there have been no flips

[RedCoyote]

Nevermind, it's just a dumb Internet meme. The point I'm making is that most of that was addressed (directly to you, no less), and the rest of it is just a fundamental difference of opinion. We'll just have to see if the Grey/Kcda/Amrun group prevails in this argument, I suppose.

[RedCoyote]

Why didn't you respond to any of it rather than that part?

Yeah, it was kind of weird that he just dodged the entire thing.

---

OK, but I said that on page 2. I have since stated that I am mostly getting a town read from kcd.

Still, it makes you look like you're not fully disclosing everything.

---

P-edit: same to GW. Explain how you read kcda vs. Amrun as scum on scum.

Why are you so obsessed with this? Do you think the scumteam is banking on getting a twofer with you guys?

Personally, I'm starting to doubt my own scumread on him, making sacrificing myself useless. :/ Great.

This looks like you're slowly starting to backtrack.

---

I have nothing new to contribute. I am still confident that the scum lie in Amrun, Ranger, Chrono, and Kcd, with only one of Kcd and Amrun being scum.

This is kind of what I was thinking, but then Amrun & Grey started off on this, "you suspect us both so you think we're both scum together! Obviously that cannot be the truth!"

So now I want them both lynched even more.

---

The degree to which he's invested in Amrun and Kdcaspot not both being scum is a bit strange, however. Instinctively I feel wary of his motives. Probably ought to meta him to get a better read. Preview edit: Yeah. If GreyICE is scum then at least one of Amrun and Kcdaspot is scum too.

I feel exactly the same way. I think Doombunny and smargaret were hinting at this a bit, but I'm glad someone else is noticing this. Grey just completely attached himself to this idea that one of Amrun and Kcda is confirmed town out of the blue. At first I thought he was just trying to get more attention toward Ranger, which was reasonable, but then he started bantering with Amrun as though they were both untouchable. I just dont understand where he's coming from at all, and I don't like it.

if someone is expressing suspicion only of the easiest targets (least capable of defending themselves strongly), it's reasonable to at least keep an eye on that person to make sure they really are trying to actually scumhunt.

I mean, I get the logic behind the point, but I'm not going to sit here and let Grey say that Amrun and Kcda are too easy of targets so they're town. No, sir. That's not going to fly. If he wants to stick his neck out for these two, then he needs to man up and say it. This political mumbo jumbo about how Kcda is too easy of a lynch to be scum is just misdirection otherwise as far as I'm concerned.

Chronopie

You too? Really? I mean, what exactly is it that he has done? The man is probably just busy. This is nothing better than a lurker lynch, imo. Nothing he's said has been particularly scummy, just kind of out of touch.

Same question to smargaret.

"I'm scum. How do you know we have time machines?" or "I'm scum - but we only have one time machine." It reminds me of how SKs are more likely to comment on someone's comment about SKs.

I see your point, but, I mean, I don't know how hard I'd go after something like this. It's pretty logical to assume that scum and town alignments are going to have some sort of control over the time mechanic. Maybe the way she phrased it was a little weird, but I'm inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt in making the assumption.

---

1. Amrun
   
2. Kcdaspot
   
3. RangeroftheNorth
   
4. GreyICE
   
5. Chronopie
   
6. smargaret
   
7. Tragedy
   
8. Doombunny9
   
9. imaginality
   
10. MrTrow
    
11. Exe
    
12. GhostWriter

At this point I would vote to lynch, but I'm going to be absent for the Easter holidays. There's no point rushing the lynch phase unless everyone is around for it.

[RedCoyote]

RC, I have left several deliberate hints for you in particular, since you seem to be reading my posts carefully.

The fact that you have failed to address them at all is raising alarm bells in my mind. You've seen them. I can guarantee scum have seen them.

If you're going to claim, then claim. I see these hints, but they mean nothing to me without anything to back them up. You already dipped your toe in the water, so you might as well do a cannonball.

---

Yes, to some extent it's a lurker lynch - but scum can lurk. Even when he does post, what he says proves that he isn't reading the thread, just skimming, and while he's posted a few times today, he hasn't taken a stance in those posts.

Fair enough, but I feel like we can do better than him.

---

iso#0 does make a good pro-town point about the setup. But it's only a comment on the setup. No random vote or other remark to help get things going. To that extent it's a fence-sitting opening post, and could very easily be scum waiting to see what others think before deciding what opinions to go with himself. It's not what this post does say, it's what it doesn't.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to sit here and call the man town over one post. I'm think your kind of gliding over the importance of this post here though. I hadn't considered this possibility personally. I think it's a good point that shouldn't be glossed over with such ease.

Yes, being pro-town can be annoying. It takes effort, having to make cases and think and discuss and work together to scumhunt. It's also necessary. /rant To me feels like lazy scum tossing forward the easiest explanation that comes to mind of 'oh yeah those reads were all just gut, don't ask me to explain them'.

Maybe. That's all I'm willing to give. Maybe. Look, I don't want to be this big Chrono defender here, but he deserves a chance to defend himself. As of right now, a Chrono lynch is off the table as far as I'm concerned.

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Oh, it was all nonsense. Half of it was just saying that I 'implied' stuff I flat out stated I believed.

Do you really not get the point I was making? Are you being delibrately pigheaded here?

---

real quick i like grey and DB for town... and I dont know about amrun anymore...

What the hell? You're gonna do a 180 on us?

---

What parts do you think need answering? Can you rephrase them into actual questions?

Why don't you ask me (like you should've done in the first place)?

---

the 'burden of hving a title to your name' however makes me want to 'relocate' the null-bar

Ha. What sucks is that I don't even think I played very well that game. I mostly let DGB and Gammagooey run the show, lol. Oh, well. Sorry to hear that!

---

1. Amrun
   
2. Kcdaspot
   
3. RangeroftheNorth
   
4. GreyICE
   
5. Chronopie
   
6. Tragedy
   
7. smargaret
   
8. Doombunny9
   
9. MrTrow
   
10. imaginality
    
11. Exe
    
12. GhostWriter

Vote: Lynch

I'm back.

[RedCoyote]

I'm going to beat you up in real life, Grey.

[RedCoyote]

Why don't you ask me then, like you should do in the first place?

Or was the point not to ask questions but to make people look scummy?

Fine. We'll go back and dig the post up. You better produce though, because I think this is a little ridiculous that your dragging this thing out when you know exactly what points I'm trying to make.

Hey Red, it's fucking getting old because it's fucking true.

It's not true. It's based completely off whatever anecdotal evidence you choose to offer. With time, I could offer just as much opposite research. Just because a player is "newer/less experienced/less skilled" doesn't necessarily mean they're town. Just because a player suspects them doesn't mean they're scum. Period.

You're making a logical argument, but it's a tired one that can just as easily be argued in the opposite way (the real reason they are getting plentiful votes is because they're scum). Neither absolute is true, the truth almost always somewhere in the middle.

If it's anything like anyone's scumlist on day 1, try and figure out how often all 3 scum are in those five players (hint: not often) and how often the person with strong scumreads on people who are 'easy lynches' are scum (quite often).

Funnily enough, you actually were implying smargaret when you said this. But it's actually not true in her case. I don't consider Doombunny or Amrun to be "newer/less experience/less skilled", frankly. I've played with both of these players and hold them in high regard.

kcdaspot is obvtown. If you disagree, make a case or fuck off.

• Kcda is effectively hopping on your back and having you do his heavy lifting, he's completely focused on Amrun for seemingly no reason since he has said multiple times that he thinks she's town, and, the classic, why me = fry me. That's no joke, btw. I hold anyone's feet to the fire who'll go off on the "why me?" line of defense. It's too self-interested.

Why is Chronopie town?

• I'll give you this. I think he skimmed too, but that is certainly not the biggest scumtell around. Get real, Grey. Especially with all your page 4 nonsense, I think you're doing this for the shock value more than anything else.

I'm not saying he's town. I have no idea whether he is town or not. I know for darn sure he's not the best lynch today though.

If I'm scum, how come Ranger of the North is up there, when all of your 'major scum suspects' have expressed suspicion of him?

Because I don't base my scumhunting on "who could be partners with who" on D1 of a closed setup when there have been no flips, roleclaims, or day actions whatsoever.

Don't say the

implication

isn't clear. When you imply something you are avoiding stating it.

Just ignore the "

>implying

". As I already said, it's a meme and not a literal definition.

---

I was bolding the buddying language.

I don't know if he's buddying just because we happen to both think Grey is delibrately dodging some pretty obvious disputes here.

---

Um so
I hate to give away town secrets and all
but...

Eh, if you're willing to gamble on some silly policy, that's your business. It seems about par for the course with you so far though, so I'm not surprised.

---

1. Kcdaspot
   
2. Amrun
   
3. Zinger2099
   
4. GreyICE
   
5. Maxous
   
6. Tragedy
   
7. smargaret
   
8. Doombunny9
   
9. MrTrow
   
10. imaginality
    
11. Exe
    
12. GhostWriter

Unvote

;

vote: Kcdaspot

Someone's ignoring me.

[RedCoyote]

I can't fault kcdaspot for the Doctor Who reference. If I had been around in the joke phase I probably would have done the same thing. His posts since then however haven't seemed overly productive and actually resemble (most of) GreyICE's posts a lot. They are short, don't explain themselves, and are sometimes even nonsensical. Not sure what he hopes to gain, could be scum.

Agree 100% with this and the rest of your post. Good start.

---

Long story short, you're avoiding the issue.
You're in fact doing just the same as what you accuse Amrun of doing: you're spending more time on "they both could be scum" than scumhunting.
So Zinger is still as scummy as Ranger. Check.

Eh, I'm not going to write him off that easily. I mean, I agree with him anyways. We're simply way too early in the game to start guessing at partnerships. I think he's being fair with his suspicions. Maybe he could be a little more clear (e.g. list), but, you know, this is much better than Ranger.

---

There was a question?

I'm assuming this is directed at me. I asked you why you did a 180 on Amrun.

---

You used an argument for an Amrun-Kcd connection to call Amrun scum. That's crap.

Why not? Amrun is the one who willingly attached herself to Kcda at the hip (as did Kcda, but to a lesser extent).

1. I have a town read on GW.
2. You're mudslinging.

1. So? What does that have to do with anything? You're still scumhunting this game, right?
2. What is that supposed to mean? It looks like Doombunny is trying to engage you on what he sees as a contradiction. Why is that mudslinging?

You completely dodged the issue, Exe.

---

Amrun and GreyICE are protesting

way

too much that Amrun and Kcdaspot cannot be mafia together.

Agreed. This is another good post by another replacement. I like all of our replacements so far. We're batting 3 for 3.

---

As for the current trend of suddenly putting the two replacements on the chopping block, what the fuck kind of mafia are you fools playing at? They flip town and then what? We're back right where we bloody started, but a day behind: D2, no real content, all the same suspects as before. No new content based on flip, because they replaced lurkers. They haven't said enough for their flip to provide content. They are NOT good choices for today. Neither one.

...and GW still shows why he's at the bottom of my list.

---

1. Kcdaspot
   
2. Amrun
   
3. GreyICE
   
4. Tragedy
   
5. Zinger2099
   
6. Maxous
   
7. Exe
   
8. smargaret
   
9. Doombunny9
   
10. MrTrow
    
11. imaginality
    
12. GhostWriter

[RedCoyote]

Huh? "Defending everyone"? This has to do with you, remember? I'm asking about your GW read. I'm asking about your accusation of "mudslinging" (which you still didn't define for me).

I think you made a good point in regards to Doombunny whining about how you're not attacking GW, but your followup is crap; I'm going to call it crap. You could've smacked Doombunny down with what you just said (why he's bugging you about GW instead of addressing his own problems), but instead you followed up by saying that GW was a town read for you (as though you were incapable of reading GW as scum) and accuse Doombunny of "mudslinging".

[RedCoyote]

I love how Amrun and Kcda are using this premium opportunity of Exe getting worked up over nothing to fly under the radar.

In either case, why have we not moved onto the lynch phase yet?

Grey, don't think I've forgotten your ignoring me either. You and Kcda are about to be sent back to the stone ages.

[RedCoyote]

Mod

, you still have Chrono on your votecount.

---

imaginality, Trow & smargaret: Who's going to top your list at this moment? Any big changes to it?

[RedCoyote]

Guys, the Mod is prodding me at this point. Seriously, move to lynch. I don't want to have to say it again.

[RedCoyote]

Kcda is definitely going, no question. Zinger is a mislynch, but, whatever. I'd be willing to lose Zinger if we could just move to the next phase. Amrun or Grey would be better for the second slot.

[RedCoyote]

I think he's town, but I'm not prepared to fight for him if it means waiting that much longer to get a move on. He won't be getting my vote, but if a majority of the players have him in their top two, then fine. Let's just be on with it though.

[RedCoyote]

I can't defend Zinger for a self-vote. I mean, he's going to flip town (yes, I know this, Grey, because I'm scum, obviously).

But I can't vote Kcda after his claim either (not that it would've mattered given that there's been this upwell of support for a Zinger lynch at the last minute yesterday).

Anyways, those are the breaks. I encourage everyone to vote Zinger and end the day.

[RedCoyote]

I ask again what was SOOOO terribad about that answer?

"Burnout and school"?

Okay, that's an answer, sure, but this doesn't account for a total flip, frankly. You were

strongly

pushing an Amrun townread for a significant amount of time. So much so that it was interfering negatively with all of your other reads (because you were taking time out to emphasize how strong of a townread you had rather than comment on other things in the game).

So, I mean, it's not like you said, in passing, "Amrun seems pretty town, need to look into it more" and then changed your mind. No, no, no. Time, after time, after time, after time, after time, you kept up with the Amrun = town schtick. Then it changes just like that? Because you were too busy with school to notice? I don't buy it, honestly.

With your claim, you know, we'll see what happens. I don't regret helping to put you here though. You didn't need to claim as far as I'm concerned. Zinger was clearly getting much more heat than you were simply because Grey, Exe, and imaginality were stuck on the notion that Zinger was obvious scum.

---

At this point, stupid voting has forced a claim out of you long before I think you should've had to, and so you'll have to come up with any ways possible to get use out of that role.

Nope. He should've known better than to claim. Zinger would've been going even if Kcda never made a closing statement.

No one disputed my case against Kcda, and I still don't think anyone has. Him claiming has absolutely nothing to do with the voters of Kcda. Even Kcda didn't go so far as to blame us for him getting second place, so you're big time in buddyville here, Exe.

---

1. Zinger
   
2. Amrun
   
3. GreyICE
   
4. Exe
   
5. Tragedy
   
6. Maxous
   
7. Doombunny9
   
8. smargaret
   
9. MrTrow
   
10. imaginality
    
11. GhostWriter
    
12. Kcdaspot

[RedCoyote]

Mod

, does the deadline start after Zinger posts or did it start after you revealed the votes?

[RedCoyote]

No, Grey (although it's refreshing that you're showing a little openness to the game again).

Zinger, a shame you started this game on the wrong foot, because I think we could've worked well together.

Let's get this show on the road, please.

[RedCoyote]

No, ma'am, I do not. I've made that pretty clear throughout the day. Neither Ranger nor Zinger had ever even broke the third spot on my list.

That being said, I want him gone over Kcda at this point.

[RedCoyote]

Is this simply because lynching a possible VT is better than lynching a possible PR?

Yes. smargaret put it best.

[RedCoyote]

I really don't want to play a game without flips. I hope, for the Mod's sake, that there's a Janitor in this setup. If our D2 lynch is like this, then I'm going to be pissed.

Let me read over what else y'all said, hold on.

[RedCoyote]

First, to get this out of the way:

Mod

, will you inform us if another timeline has been created?

Second, Kcda, did you alter time in anyway other than the shot?

---

I didn't consider the possibility of the entire game being noflip... I will not be a super happy camper if this is the case.

Yeah. Mod, if this is the case, I'm really going to be upset. I'm just giving you fair warning. This is something that needs to be emphasized going in, especially given all the complex rules already in place. I'm just saying that I hope you weren't this cruel to us.

He has claimed a souped-up JOAT with an Elite Bodyguard name, which sounds like kcdaspot fakeclaiming. The vig shot is the only way to test this claim.

I have to go with Amrun here. It sucks that we have our super PR out in the open, Max, but we really need to confirm this role as a top priority. He may be our key to solving the lack of a flip too.

---

I used my time travel powers.

someone is dying tonite but i won't out who yet.

Okay, this is good enough.

There are pros and cons to you telling us who you shot, but as of right now I would prefer you not. We need to not lynch this person today though, so you're going to have to discreetly steer us away from lynching this person (if you can).

---

scum HAS to have at least A time machine.

Kcda, I need to you go back and read your role PM with this sentence in your mind. See if you can find any clues, and then get back with me. I want you to do this, do you understand?

i'm looking at... RC here

Do what I asked right above, please. It will help you and me figure out the game, I think.

[RedCoyote]

Thank you, Amrun!

Kcda, are you sure you don't see anything that has to do with time machines? Because I really think that could help us analyze this game.

[RedCoyote]

Okay, nevermind, Kcda. That's not going to help us like I thought it might. I thought the Mod may have clued you in the role PM as to whether or not scum could use time traveling to alter any of your powers.

[RedCoyote]

IN CASE IT ISN'T CLEAR THAT WAS A JOKE.

let's not have another "Doctor Who" fiasco.

Lol. Good call, friend.

---

working as zinger is apart of the scum team.

Why?

---

I'm sorry, the lack of reveal is seriously sapping my will to play this game. Do people want me to replace out?

Nope. Stop being a princess and deal with it.

---

i believe Doombunny9's non-specific PR claim, because he as good as claimed town PR yesterday, when he said he assumed everyone had a time machine.

Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, that's a good catch. It doesn't necessarily mean he's town aligned though.

---

-=-Jumping around Amrun-=-

Hey, you don't have to sell me there. Sign me up. I'm still fully prepared to see Amrun eat rope.

---

I understand you think that scum probably have time machines but you're missing the point to my question.

I think we're asking Kcda similar things. Do you follow me, Doombunny?

---

I wish I knew what you were trying to say.

She's trying to say you're scum.

---

Is the suspicion on Red Coyote based on Zinger being town or mafia? And in either instance..why exactly? Is it just for thinking Zinger was town?

I'd kind of like to know this as well!

---

Something's still strange of Kcdaspot.
If the -ELITE BODYGUARD- was claimed here, why wasn't he killed?
He mentioned he killed someone, unless by chance, he used the time machine to go back in time or ahead (Is this even possible?) and killed somebody.
I don't know how time machines work the way Tasky uses it.

I can't really read Kcdaspot's posts anymore, so I'll put him back to null...

His claim really just seems so over the top to be fake, in my opinion. It seems like it would really be hard for scum to keep track of all that stuff. Let's just keep the fire to his feet for now, but I appreciate you still shopping the idea that the claim is a tough one to swallow (because it is).

---

it wasn`t intended as a PR-claim.

Yeah, but, I mean, it is. You agree with that, right?

---

Then the next/latest post from MrTrow, he still says smarg is town.
Seriously, there's no chats with Smargaret and it simply feels awkward since MrTrow is ironically concerned with Smargaret, although they don't know the other person's alignment... Or by chance, they do.
Yes, sounds like Trow's defending Smarg here.

Good point, but what is he defending her from? It just doesn't seem like she's facing much heat. I don't know how you separate this from just having a normal town read on her based on reading her posts.

---

1. Amrun
   
2. GreyICE
   
3. Exe
   
4. Maxous
   
5. MrTrow
   
6. smargaret
   
7. Tragedy
   
8. Doombunny9
   
9. imaginality
   
10. GhostWriter
    
11. Kcdaspot
    
12. Zinger

I'm kind of unsure where to put Zinger on my list now. I mean, I'm just going to take a chance and put him on the bottom because I don't really see how he could be scum.

[RedCoyote]

I'm tempted to just throw a bunch of links at you for that. You honestly don't remember us going back and forth on D1?

[RedCoyote]

I can't think of a plausible explanation as to why he'd be scum.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, I do think it's plausible that there is a Janitor. Maybe I'm misinterpreting the role.

You mean, like, the role has to be lynched and then he uses his power? The way I was seeing it is that we lynch a townie, they flip nothing, and, until Zinger (or whoever is Janitor) is lynched, they stay as nothing.

[RedCoyote]

DB, you shouldn't. You should answer my question.

Amrun, smargaret has a point. I mean, we should be prepared for the very logical, if not probable, conclusion that this game is no flip.

I need to reconsider my strategy, because if that's the case then this game is going to be extremely taxing (more so than it already is), unforgiving, and emotionally draining.

2. Say scum go back and nk relevant people to change the timeline so that Zinger is alive again, or say that I get nk'd tonight and a doc goes back in time to protect me n2 so I turn up alive day 4. The mod can't have flipped my alignment; that would break the game - so it must be no-flip. I asked to make sure my logic was right.

This is very perceptive. I think I get where you're coming from, but I don't know if the full implications of this game are still sinking in for me. I mean, big picture, what do you think this means?

[RedCoyote]

2.3.1 Each time an event changes the course of history, I will go back and revisit everything (votes and lynches, special and factional abilities; and whatever else might happen).

[RedCoyote]

Shame on you.

[RedCoyote]

kcdaspot blatantly didn't follow instructions, and claimed to be using the vig tonight. Coincidentally, a scum kill is missing from day 1.

What do you propose we do about it?

So I'm kind of fucking stuck.

Then I suppose you should act on what alignment you think Zinger was.

---

I felt that because of the other powers specifically my protect power, to do it n1 is useless.

I understand this, but...

and no flips make zero sense with my protect power. I have to be sure that the person i save isn't scum. that alone implies a flip of some sort.

...I don't understand this.

All protection rolls protect blindly. They don't protect someone after they flip.

there has to be another PR other than me for town... I can't seem to shake the issue from my mind.

Wow, can you say rolefishing?

---

Good point, however:
- As every time-traveler (independent of other powers) is basically a commuter, asuming there is a doc is risky.
- Having a single confirmed townie isn`t that unacceptable (claimed innocent, by flipped cop isn`t that uncommon)
- scum pulling a similar stunt a day later to kill this doc n3(or in whatever time the doc would be hiding then) would also take you back into the grave
- a 'hidingtime' of the doctor (n2) would be revealed by that move. (asuming we`re talking about a corpse that didn`t/couldn`t timetravel)
- and last (but not least) during n2 you travel to n5, scum kills you n5(maybe they do this from n2 aswell): result, your corpse travels back(or you have 'mysteriously disappeared') and you are revealed to have died n2, the doc however will have to act n5 to get you back. It`s not that simple.

I see the reasons why a closed-flip-scenario would be 'reasonable', i disagree with the 'must be closed-flip'-conclusion.

Ugh, I knew this game would be too confusing for me. This is good stuff, Trow. I'd like to hear smargaret respond.

As for the 'janitored zinger', independent of 'whether he was scum or not', we could really do without that polarisation of the town based on info we`re probably never going to get.

Explain this, please.

He knows there are more than 2 scum. How?

Nah, he's just hypothesizing. Nothing wrong with this.

I don't like your list much though. We're going to have to start hammering out our differences. Do you think Exe or Amrun could be moved up for you? I might be willing to move Kcda up on mine, but I really like imaginality, Tragedy, and DB for town right now.

---

1. Amrun
   
2. GreyICE
   
3. Exe
   
4. Maxous
   
5. MrTrow
   
6. smargaret
   
7. Tragedy
   
8. Kcdaspot
   
9. Doombunny9
   
10. imaginality
    
11. GhostWriter
    
12. Zinger

I'm still not sure whether I should keep Zinger on the top of my list or the bottom.

[RedCoyote]

Gone until Sunday most likely.

[RedCoyote]

Red Coyote, I'm not clear why you have GreyICE 2nd in your list of suspects. What's your case on him?

His crap logic that Kcda & Mist are "easy lynches" and, thus, town is what soured me to him at first. This was in post 269. Post 274 is just some ugly all around, it only feeds into what I was already suspecting to be the case, that he was going full-on defensive mode in favor of Kcda and Amrun. He's completely beholden to Amrun, lapping up her arguments without scrutinizing them in the slightest. Check post 276 for more of this.

Do you really not remember me and Grey going at it yesterday, imaginality?

---

Now, had you actually shown up on my list, out of the blue, with continued lack of backing to it, then you could go ahead and get riled enough to move me to spot 3, and have it make some sense. But getting scared from just the threat of intent? Oh, can't forget when you called me overly-cautious. Cautious of what? I'm seen as the most town player in the game, several lists have proven it. And I certainly didn't get that from being cautious. If I had, you'd have said so earlier when I was still town to you, before I stated the gut scum read. Maybe that's why you're getting worked up: think I might have some kind of leeway with the path of players votes? Congrats, you handled pressure like a pro.

Hmm... I've got to admit, he has a point here, imaginality.

---

Emm.. sorry guys I don't have anything interesting to add at the moment.

No, that's fine. I actually agree with you. I don't see Tragedy or MrTrow as scum, really. My list doesn't really go into detail, but I see a lot of people as town in this game.

---

Only reason to claim now is when I find out that some people who finds me suspicious would eventually need a claim from me anyways. Thoguh I'm not being pressured, I prefer to spit some honesty out beforehand, instead of claiming when everyone's planning to vote me out (eventually or possibly).

Yeah, but now you're useless to us, Tragedy.

---

Could we see your whole list before doing this please?

This.

---

@RC: a mafia-faction with janitor-abilities would want zinger cleaned up independent of his allignment, considering the impact that action has on the town
- All cases that are in any way dependent of zingers allignment are doomed to fail, as there is no consencus on his probable allignment (nearly half the town is likely to dismiss the case because of that fact alone)
- All time wasted on whether or not he was scum, is time not spent at hunting scum who are alive.
- And last but not least, the chaos of the potential no-flip suggestion. (This last one is the reason why i consider smargaret an unlikely member of a janitor-containing-mafia)
first 2 would work on nearly anyone, but had more effect due to the 'rather lynch a vt than a confirmable pr' debate + the fact that it was D1

That's fine. I can go with all of this. So, I mean, Tragedy is the only person who I think doesn't agree with this.

---

Oh and Tragedy's claim should'nt of come as a surprise by the way.
I would imagine the mafia figured it out before night 1...

Yeah, but that doesn't excuse her.

---

Game is stagnating. Furthermore, I've got enough from the previous day, as well as this one to go ahead and VOTE: Lynch with peace of mind. Mostly, I need a flip, not gonna lie.

Expand on this.

---

I will vote for any of RedCoyote, Amrun, or MrTrow.

What the hell? After all your BS that Amrun is super town? You've got to be kidding.

---

1. GreyICE
   
2. Amrun
   
3. Exe
   
4. Tragedy
   
5. Maxous
   
6. MrTrow
   
7. imaginality
   
8. smargaret
   
9. Kcdaspot
   
10. C-Worl
    
11. GhostWriter
    
12. Zinger

[RedCoyote]

Why the FUCK is C-Worl your third to last? Please make a case for C-Worl-town for me, so I can see where your head is right now, because that makes absolutely no sense to me.

I'm debating over whether or not I believe his claim. I liked Doombunny and saw few of the same issues with him that y'all did, although I will admit that I'm not particularly happy with C-Worl. He needs to move in my list to reflect this, so I will concede somewhat to you here.

ZINGER VOTED HIMSELF.

Why the fuck is that being ignored?

I don't see how this makes much of a difference. I'm certainly not going to be willing to bank on him being scum over it. I've been in multiple games where town have voted themselves. Additionally, given Kcda's claim, I wouldn't be surprised if Zinger saw more value in giving Kcda a chance to help confirm himself further down the line (as well as force the scum to WIFOM their night actions against him).

---

My list is essentially the same as it was yesterday, with Imaginality rising high enough to get a top 2 spot. Amrun takes the other spot.

Okay. I love how you get straight to the point. That's exactly what I wanted to know.

---

Question for all: did you know our top 2 votes would be public?

I don't think I did, but I don't remember. I don't really care because I post my list often and have no objection to any of my lists being public. I have nothing to hide, nor should any other townie.

---

Self-voting is considered a viable strategy as scum.
It is not, as town.

Why are you pushing this so hard? You really don't think it's at all possible that Zinger voted himself as town? Come on. I could link to at least two games I was in, just off the top of my head, where a townie not only voted themselves, but actually hammered themselves.

If you want to lower the bar to include just pure self-votes, I'm sure I have at least two dozen different examples of that.

---

Either I will get a flip, and know we have a janitor, or I won't, and know we're most likely in a no-flip game. However, I'd like to assume we have a day janitor. I didn't know there was a such thing as a day-janitor until she said it. I was, indeed, implying this might be a no-flip game until that.

I know this is starting to come across as buddying-sounding, and I honestly don't mean for it to, but I wish more players would talk this plainly. Although I do appreciate smargaret summing it up for me pretty bluntly as well. Both of you have done a pretty good job at keeping things down to earth, I think.

---

Everything about the way Amrun has handled her PR so far, and the probable nature of it, makes me think scum PR.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

---

if Zinger didn't know the votes would be revealed but DID know he would be janitored, he may have self-voted to assure he was on the chopping block.

If you are implying that both Zinger and Kcda were scum, I'd be very weary of relying on that sort of good fortune on the part of the town. I'm not a math guru, but I think there's, like, statistically a 3.8% chance of that happening if my numbers are right.

And I said I left hints for RC, or anybody, but I knew RC would catch them bc we have played together before. Those hints started coming after pressure and do not allude to which PR I have.

Yes, and I acknowledged that I picked them up with the advice that you might as well give a full on claim. Now, you wisely avoided this advice (although it was still risky to do so) and ended up not being nominated for a lynch. I don't know if you'll be as lucky this go 'round.

Vague, un-subtle warnings against lynching you are not enough to sway me against it because you're simply not making enough of a commitment to a role. I appreciate you trying to be delicate about your claim, but the fact of the matter is that, in these specific circumstances, I still see you as scummy.

I wouldn't say that, you know, you should use either of our approaches (your not-so-subtle "trust me, you don't want to lynch me" warnings, nor my excessive pressure on a potential PR) as a template for any future games, but I would say that, in this specific situation, this is just how it's going to break for me. If you think you can avoid the nomination process again, then you're right to be hesitant about all the details of your claim, but you know where I stand.

---

Scum detected.

Explain.

---

Kcd: No, Grey is town because he's obviously town. Stop failing.

Cut out this meta crap, please. Grey isn't town simply because he did a similar thing in some other game you guys played together God knows how long ago.

---

1. GreyICE
   
2. Amrun
   
3. Exe
   
4. Tragedy
   
5. C-Worl
   
6. Maxous
   
7. MrTrow
   
8. imaginality
   
9. smargaret
   
10. Kcdaspot
    
11. GhostWriter
    
12. Zinger

Amrun

, I do have something for you though. Do you remember the line of questioning I asked of Doombunny when this day started?

C-Worl

, what role do you have?

[RedCoyote]

My PM just says that I have an unlimited time machine. No clues about scum whatsoever.

Okay, that's all I wanted to know. You actually looked at it again before you said this, right? You're not just going off memory?

---

Is this what I said? I don't think so.

• That or none of you have ever played with Grey before.
  GreyICE puts 100% effort into the game at nearly all times. His current attitude reads as pissed off Grey-town to me.

Zinger was scummy BEFORE he ever self-voted.
His predecessor was scummy.
He was scummy.
And THEN he self-voted.

Except for the last statement, these are all opinions, Exe. There's no reason for you to be condescending. I simply don't agree with you. You can keep screaming at me and stomping your feet, but Zinger was town. I will be treating him as such. Him voting himself has no bearing on the situation whatsoever. I know you're gobsmacked at the idea, but you're just going to have to take it. It's not unheard of, Exe. I've had townies join their own wagons, and I've even had townies lynch themselves. These two are just in games I was in, and I'm sure it's happened many more times on the site. People self-vote all the time. That your making such a big deal of this is beginning to become annoying and increasingly insincere, I think. Then again, that's why I have you so high on my list.

---

I was really looking forward to seeing Zinger's alignment to help solidify some things, but even though I'm 90% convinced he's scum, it's not 100%. Ugh.

When you say things like this, you know, it's like you're almost beating a dead horse.

I might just move the next person who bitches about the no flip up my list. It sucks, okay, everyone gets that. I complained about it too. Look, your just have to suck it up and move on.

---

Tell me why you think GreyICE is scum. I've basically explained my reasoning.

I'll tell you what I told imaginality. Do you really not remember us two going at it yesterday? Going at it over him attaching himself to Kcda, Amrun, and Mist yesterday? Now with him saying Amrun is scum, I mean, that just puts it over the top. I want him gone. No, he doesn't get a pass because of his attitude. That's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not going to coddle him for his bad play and just assume he's town like you're doing.

---

When you mentioned "VTs are apparently Casual Bystanders", you're now claiming that you're a PR, possible scum there. "Just" a Casual Bystander can still mean you're only a VT, and who the fuck would suddenly come back with a second claim that you aren't a VT, srsly. He knows he's a VT when you know the VT's role name.. And it makes it revealing that you aren't a VT at all, so it makes me think you're a scum PR, at the moment.

You've lost me. I actually can't sit here and read your arguments seriously because you've made me so upset with you. I really liked you as town, Tragedy. I don't know why you claimed.

---

Think about it for a second.

He scumhunted D1. D2 he became lazy.

What makes more sense.

You know there's an old scumtell that accounts for this kind of sudden change in behavior. I mean, that's been around for a long time.

I'm not necessarily applying it in this case, but I'm certainly not going to give him town points for being lazy.

---

I'm unsure about Amrun stating a growing feeling about GreyICE being mafia than lately saying her gut tells her he is probably town, not she is leaning town with him.

It's likely because she's scum trying to straddle both sides of the argument. Kind of appeasing Exe and kind of appeasing me and/or GW.

Why did you advise her to claim if you think it was a better idea she did'nt?

Oh, no. I'm saying that I advised her to claim yesterday (primarily because I thought she was going to get enough votes to be nominated), but that her not claiming ended up being the better call (because she ended up not getting enough votes).

---

Well - I was once a vig, but I received the shot right before I died, so I could never use it and I wasn't a PR from the start of the game. Most of my completed games are in my wiki, minus like one or two I haven't put in there yet.

Oh, and I just checked. I was a mason once in a b-mod game that lasted two days. I don't really consider that a PR though.

You know these consistent little concessions do nothing but hurt your creditability, right?

So we went from "never been a PR" to "never been a town PR" to "never been a town PR with the exception of other ongoing games" to "never been a town PR with the exception of other ongoing games except for the time that I was a Vig who never got to use the power" to now we're at "never been a town PR with the exception of other ongoing games except for the time that I was a Vig who never got to use the power and also except that I was once a Mason in a short game".

---

in the end this fakeclaim stuff is just speculation...

I don't know that it should even be a serious part of the discussion; it seems more like an Exe-fueled distraction to me. The only problem is motivation. I'm guessing he's motivated to keep Grey from being lynched, but the biggest problem he has is that I don't want him trying to convince me Grey is town. I want Grey to do that.

---

Vote: Lynch

1. GreyICE
   
2. Amrun
   
3. Exe
   
4. Tragedy
   
5. C-Worl
   
6. MrTrow
   
7. imaginality
   
8. Maxous
   
9. smargaret
   
10. Kcdaspot
    
11. GhostWriter
    
12. Zinger

[RedCoyote]

But what if I assume Zinger is town?

[RedCoyote]

Barring something crazy, there's almost no way I'll be choosing smargaret over Amrun here for the lynch.

Amrun, did you use your powers at all yesterday?

[RedCoyote]

Well, then I guess we'll be cancelling each other's votes out, darlin'.

[RedCoyote]

I turned in my lynch list. Kcda sounds genuine here and, I don't know, I feel like I couldn't imagine both Kcda and Amrun being town powers. It seems kind of strong. This plus my reads in general.

[RedCoyote]

my vig shot is gone mod confirmed that to D2.

So, uh, why didn't smargaret die? Do you think she was protected or do you think someone blocked you?

---

BAH

I targeted grey ice last night. I got an inno on him too.

I targeted GW n1 because I'm not certain of my ability to read him. I targeted grey because he seemed to fall in that null zone for most of the town.

I'm kind of surprised to be alive, honestly.

These seem like reasonable investigations.

---

How exactly does roleblocking work in this game?
Would the mafia of had to block you N1, N2 or either night to prevent a kill?

I think either could've worked given how it broke down.

Zinger indeed has a history of self-voting as town.

Maybe Exe will listen to you.

---

So you`re saying you didn`t time-travel your way out of that one?
Which means kcda is either lying or was blocked?

I don't find it hard to believe Kcda was blocked at all. He announced his plans way before they happened. If mafia have any sort of Roleblocker/Doctor/Redirector role, they could've easily stopped that kill (assuming smargaret is mafia).

Hmmm... but, actually, come to think of it, why would scum want to stop a kill on smargaret? I kind doubt the town still has more power (given that they'll likely have some time traveling PRs).

Interesting. You and Tragedy may be on to something here.

True smarg-scum didn`t know GreyIce was going to be modkilled (something probably happened tonight(the last drop) as i believe the modkill would have taken place earlier), however, she DID know it before she CLAIMED the investigation.

Very good point. smargaret doesn't strike me as the type to fake investigations for the town's benefit, but her having two useless investigations surely does help the scumteam. You can't deny that.

---

However mafia claiming cop would of been a high-risk gambit that she took when Amrun was the likely lynch of the day. Since there was only one person eliminated from the game - which was a claimed VT - it is likely the town has a cop.

I think there's a good chance we have an investigative role of sorts, but, yes, I see your point. Hmmm... this is tough.

---

Smargscum goes to the past and kills somebody within N1 on N2 -> Kcdaspot tries to kill smarg = It would mean that attempting to kill smarg when the target used their time machines is impossible.

Okay, but then address Max's point. Do you think the town has an investigative role or not?

---

Smarg as a member of a janitor powered scumteam could fakeclaim cop relatively safe if they had just janitored the real cop (as 2 cops in a game this size isn`t going to happen)

Who do you think was the actual Cop then? Zinger or Amrun?

1: so you considered your 'result on GreyIce' more usefull than a 50+% chance on hitting scum?

You claimed because you believed kcda`s 'town-oneshot-vig+ targeting you' - claim, yet you completely forgot about it here?

I don't understand either of these points. Elaborate, please.

---

OH. i blocked last night lemme know if ya need the target.

Wait. You can do two things in one night or did you do this for N3?

---

@MrTrow: You can't 'vote' someone.. I thought that was sort of established...

The Mod has been keeping track of votes all game as courtesy to us. Where have you been?

---

C-Worl, will you read over my comment to Doombunny in this post and answer it for me, please? I don't know how we're going to do this list. Uh... I guess like this for now. I might have to keep Amrun at third though?

1. Amrun
   
2. C-Worl
   
3. Exe
   
4. MrTrow
   
5. Tragedy
   
6. Maxous
   
7. smargaret
   
8. Kcdaspot
   
9. Zinger
   
10. GreyICE
    
11. imaginality
    
12. GhostWriter

[RedCoyote]

The question about his role PM.

Boo @ Exe (but it is better than getting yourself Modkilled).

[RedCoyote]

Re: Mafia blocking KCD - they probably did it N1 to frame him when no vig kill went through. Then again the mafia knew KCD would vig one of smarg RC or Doombunney in that order (according to his suspicion list). If none of them are mafia then they would'nt of blocked his kill. So likely to be at least 1 there.
But I of course could prob name any 3 people in the game right now and say there is at least 1 mafia there. Point is keep that in mind - it might be useful later.

Right. Good point. Scum had to have been convinced that Kcda was probably aiming for a scum member. I would be absolutely fine going after someone in this list (not me, obviously). Kcda, do you consider this is a fair list? These are your suspicions we're talking about after all.

---

unless she just janitored copZinger(Amrun wasn`t lynched at the time discussed), because of zingers` claim he clearly wasn`t the cop.

What I'm getting at is that I don't think there's a Janitor in this game. smargaret's supposition as to why this game has had no flips makes a lot more sense than the idea that there is one, or multiple, Janitors. I think the enitre Janitor discussion at this point is merely a red herring.

Smarg had the chance to use her 'watch-ability' on ghostwriter

I understand now. This is a good point. Thanks for clearing this up.

As for the second: I find it weird (to say the least) that a pr completely forgets the reason she full-claimed in the first place.

Okay, I understand this now as well. Thank you.

---

My role is Roleblocker.

I need one more piece of information though, C-worl, and I promise to stop bothering you about it. Does your role PM mention anything at all about time traveling, especially in regards to scum. Just read it over very carefully for me and let me know.

---

investigating greyice was just poor play.

I disagree with this (although I am now much more open to the idea that smargaret is pulling wool over all of our eyes). I mean, why do you say this?

---

I honestly didn't think too much about my night action, because I assumed KCD's shot would go through and I couldn't do anything about it, and I saw no way for him to die N1 other than a mafia kill ...

I don't know if I buy this. You sound like a very thoughtful player. I actually think the Grey investigation was fine, but I don't like the way you are defending yourself here when you act like it was a throwaway investigation. That seems contradictory.

---

I blocked Smarg so she's lieing if she says she got an inno result.

Oh, goodness.

Well, there you go, Kcda. Wrapped up into a nice little package for us courtesy of C-Worl.

Vote: Lynch

---

Okay, safe money now that C-Worl is mafia.
Only question is was that a distancing attempt? That claim looks so fake that it might be.

I don't know if C-Worl would have been conniving enough to orchestrate something like that.

But if you take C-Worl's claim along with the fact that, in actuality, Kcda was the one who was blocked (assuming you believe he's town), the signs clearly point to C-Worl scum here. smarg & Kcda fit together as town much better than any other scenario I can come up with.

I was hesistant about smargaret as town, but C-Worl's claim really does give her some creditability, I think.

---

I just discovered, Red Coyote's a fun person to play and he actively scum hunts and he's useful. I think he's *DEFINITELY* town.

Thank you; that's very sweet of you.

You'll have to do more than butter me up to get on my good side though, hon. I didn't care for the person you replaced much, and I'm put off by your posting little snippets. I'd much prefer to you try and get a firmer grasp of the ruleset before attempting to comment on the players and activities.

---

1. Amrun
   
2. C-Worl
   
   
3. jilynne1991
   
   
4. MrTrow
   
5. smargaret
   
6. Tragedy
   
7. Maxous
   
8. Kcdaspot
   
9. Zinger
   
10. GreyICE
    
11. imaginality
    
12. GhostWriter

[RedCoyote]

C-Worl, if you are still here, tell me if it mentions scum in your role PM at all. I'm not trying to trap you; I want to know if it specifically talks about scum and/or time traveling in relation to scum.

[RedCoyote]

Okay, nevermind. I'm not trying to get you modkilled; I was just looking for something specific. I don't think neither you nor Kcda have any clues about scum time travel. It just seems weird to me.

[RedCoyote]

I've seen enough, frankly.

[RedCoyote]

Sorry, I'm here. I don't know how much is worth commenting on, and I also don't know why jilynne claimed.

I'm iffy on smargaret, but I believe her and Kcda are town together far before I think C-Worl is part of this town. I mean, does anyone want to seriously advocate we lynch smargaret over C-Worl here? If so, speak up. I'd like to see your rationale.

I'm getting more suspicious of RC after rereading today simply because he's a strong enough player that he should be taking the lead or at least participating more, and I'm really not sure where he stands - he's not supposed to be in the background.

As you may or may not have already guessed at, I don't feel as though I have any sort of confident position as a lead here. I don't say this just to be deprecative, but moreso because I'm still at a bit of a loss to how time travel is changing our game thus far (if it has at all). If anything I feel like Kcda should be stepping up to the plate, but I will try to be a bit more attentive.

[RedCoyote]

Max, what do you make of jilynne claiming so quickly? I can't decide whether she nervously was trying to get her claim out before she (wrongly) assumed she'd be lynched today, or that she is super concerned about claiming quickly lest she be lynched and lose the game for the scum.

By the by, a town-aligned Suicide Bomber seems so contradictory. I'm sure it's happened before, but damn if I don't have trouble swallowing that as a town PR.

[RedCoyote]

I mean, does anyone want to seriously advocate we lynch smargaret over C-Worl here? If so, speak up. I'd like to see your rationale.

Silence speaks volumes. Say good night, Sea World.

---

1. Amrun
   
2. C-Worl
   
   
3. jilynne1991
   
   
4. MrTrow
   
5. smargaret
   
6. Tragedy
   
7. Maxous
   
8. Kcdaspot
   
9. Zinger
   
10. imaginality
    
11. GhostWriter

(Note: The Mod told me Grey could be completely removed from my list because there's a 0% chance he will come back or have any future effect on the game.)

[RedCoyote]

Then we'll lose and it'll be all your fault!

[RedCoyote]

Why are we even factoring in a Janitor at all anymore? I don't understand, Max. Y'all are both talking over my head.

[RedCoyote]

I need to read back over Doombunny, but absolutely nothing is keeping me from wanting jilynne's head. I don't care if she's "reformed" mafia or not. I never had any real love for Exe, and I'm not liking her story either.

Sorry to keep anyone waiting on me. My keyboard is going out on me. It works, but the keys are sticking. I'll post from work.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, I don't want to hold this up. I think... I think jilynne has a good shot at being scum. I mean, it almost sounds too weird to be scum, but I couldn't live with myself if she ended up beating us as scum with a claim like that.

Vote: Lynch

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, I don't blame y'all. I just don't have much to add. I don't feel like I've got a good handle on what's going on here other than I don't believe jil, especially after the Mod reminded us that there's only one anti-town team (and jil's role sounded like the definition of a third-party role).

Let's try lynching jil. I'll claim tomorrow.

[RedCoyote]

Good game everyone! Thanks for running the game, Mod. You did a fine job. The setup was a bit over my head, but I should've known that coming in. Thanks especially to all the people that replaced in!