Team Mafia: White Flag Mafia

[DemonHybrid]

/confirmed

[DemonHybrid]

Vote: mith

Wow. It's not everyday when I can say something like that.

[DemonHybrid]

1. Equinox, threats aren't the best way to get your voice heard. I had just posted my RVS vote.
2. I agree with you on InflatablePie and his preference for being scum.
3. Question for you: Why focus on IP and not other players with strong scumgames who Llamarble mentioned? Sotty, DGB, Thor and mith (from what I recall) all have strong scum games and you hadn't really focused on talking about them.

Unvote, Vote: InflatablePie

Preview edit: SP became town with that post. I'm going to be looking at the 6 aforementioned people at the moment (Sotty, DGB, Thor, mith, IP, Equinox).

[DemonHybrid]

?

7 to lynch, and I'm the 5th vote.

[DemonHybrid]

Vote Equinox

Very unrandom. There is no backing to an IP wagon as herp-derping is not a scumtell, just a competence one. Equinox is pushing it more then "random wagon" on something like this being a tell.

Other good votes are marble and Klazam.

You're denying that meta's important in a variation of mafia like this? Meta couldn't be more important, and especially in RVS. I know that's taboo to say, but 90% of the comments so far have been on meta, strengths and weaknesses because teams can choose their roles. It may not be valid in the future, but it was the quickest way to get out of RVS.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm not denying that Equinox could be scum, however, it's weird that you believe that it's an Equinox-IP team due to Equinox's behavior, yet you won't vote for or mention IP and instead debunk the wagon. Why?

Also, if the point of RVS is to leave it, why is it better to discount meta? RVS ends in other games due to meta all the time, why is this time any different?

[DemonHybrid]

Anyways, you agree with me about Equinox. Wagon up?

What? No, I said I wasn't denying the fact that he

could

be scum.

FoS: LlamaFluff

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: *she.

The avatar.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm wagoning someone I strongly believe to be scum. Am I not allowed to get people to stop pulling unreadable crap like, "Hey, mith is here; let's vote him for lulz!" and be accountable to a wagon? Besides, I was not baiting hammers; if you'll notice, I didn't bait votes after Klazam's. Sorry if I don't like posting threshold warnings.

But you are in a very active game trying to get multiple people to vote someone who you think to be at L-2 by specifically addressing three people?

You are fine trying to shut down a random wagon in the place of a "legitimate" one, but when you refuse to say why its a random wagon instead of just saying that someone is scum because of 'secret reasons', you arent going to get any backing, or at least shouldnt. The fact that you DID get backing makes me think the IP wagon is a great spot to look for scum. The arguement of "IP should be lynched due to alignment prefrence" is weak, and doesnt hold any water too past a RVS stage, and you need to actually bring that information to light, BEFORE you think someone is hammered, to have it qualify.

Why sarcasm is scummy: Sarcasm is a basic psychological mechanism for deflecting attention off oneself. Something pretty useful in mafia, and one i see in IRL mafia all the time.

I never have found this to be the case, usually I see it more of a frustration with a player response.

I noticed you didn't even pretend that "You totally agreed with me on Equinox, now vote her" statement didn't even exist. I expected a response.

Unvote, Vote: LlamaFluff

. Maybe this will convince you.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: Didn't even pretend that it existed. It's late and I worked today bussing tables sooooo

[DemonHybrid]

I noticed you didn't even pretend that "You totally agreed with me on Equinox, now vote her" statement didn't even exist. I expected a response.

Thought it was more of a rhetorical statement.

You saying "Im not denying he could be scum" sounds like "I dont think he is town" which means "He is scum". I like people agreeing with me, even if its just in my head.

What kind of excuse is that? I thought my terminology was very clear.

Oh, and a townie would have noticed an FoS and explained him/herself on the get-go instead of needing a vote prompt. I even bolded my FoS, nice and clear, so that you could get the hint.

[DemonHybrid]

DH's posts are odd. In the post where he votes me, 1. he sort of slings a small bit of mud onto Equi by asking why he's concentrating on me but not the other people with strong scum games (which is implying I have a strong scum game and I really don't think I do btw ). 2. His next important posts says that Equi could be scum... yet he's still voting for me, and my wagon was a wagon pushed by Equi. 3. He does mention later that this doesn't necessarily mean he thinks Equi is scum. So his statement is

either obvious

(because everyone could be scum) or he was just saying that to fall back on if there's an Equi wagon later.

1. I never posted any suspicion on Equinox. I'm not calling her obv or confirmed town, however. In light of this, I'm going to ask questions to gain every little bit of reasoning.
2. EVERYONE could be scum. That's my point. I'm just not discounting Equinox.
3. Read the bolded. It was supposed to be obvious and it's something Llama completely passed over.

EBWOP: DH also jumped ship on the mith RVS wagon when mine gained momentum and is now on the LlamaFluff wagon once Equi starts pushing for him, leaving mine when Equi jumps ship and some of the suspicion on me seems to drop.

Don't like how this is an afterthought, for the record.

My mith vote was RVS because 1. I had just come back from work and saw that the game was underway, so I didn't read it and felt like I needed to get a vote out.
2. After reading it, Equinox had a good point.

Pie, I know you're smarter than this. Are you trying to fabricate stuff?

LlamaFluff

: You also ignored my last statement/question directed towards you.

[DemonHybrid]

Wooosh.

I agree with Equi about Chris, town read there.
I'm liking the Llama brothers thus far, though it's weaker.
Equi is working really hard, if scum, and I don't buy that.

I still like Pie for the rope - the buzzing bee who thinks sarcasm is 'srs tell, srsly' and Mith also go on my scum list.
Let's lynch one of them, I still have dibs on a Mith hammer.

Why mith? You hadn't mentioned a thing about him before this post other than "I want the hammer if there's a wagon", and that was during an apparent RVS for you. What changed?

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP:

On second thought, let's roll with this.

Unvote, Vote: SocioPath

I'm going to let the thread breathe now.

Why? Do you really read Socio's motivation as scum-driven?

I can't get a clear read on Klazam yet. I'm going to be keeping an eye on him.

DGB not posting as often is making me a bit skeptical. Pie, Llama and her can be considered on my scumlist at the moment.

[DemonHybrid]

I skimmed my wall and realized I forgot to add this. It's not an afterthought.

Aye, alright.

No, I think I'm right this time. This smells faintly of AtE, by the way.

AtE? Why? By that logic, anyone who's accused other people of lying or implied such has used AtE. You just basically used a boilerplate term without even regarding the meaning of it.

Yes, you did. By asking why he's concentrating on one player who's doing something and not everyone else, it's a mix of pseudo-defending the one player in question, and trying to discredit the attacking player's argument and cast suspicion on them for doing such.

I also questioned about 4 other people and I never posted suspicion on them. The only people who I posted suspicion on were you, Llama and DGB for lurking. You ask questions to gain information and modify reads based on that. I really don't get anything that you're saying, because this is elementary stuff you're screwing up.

As for your other two points, stating the obvious is a scumtell (see: IIoA).

Except I was clarifying that I wasn't suspecting Equinox, since that came up in conversation in regards to a potential Equinox-IP team. It fit the context and it definitely wasn't out of nowhere, so I don't get your claim of IIoA.

Plus, I don't like your defense of "I meant to post this! it was a trap for Llama!" (by the way, I want to ask everyone to use full names so we don't get the two Llamas confuse)

I never said it was a trap for LlamaFluff and you completely misrepresented my statement on that.

I understand the mith wagon, even in your case, falls under RVS. However, it was your vote that made it a competing RVS wagon at 3 votes each, and when that one didn't gain, you jumped onto mine. Scummy.

I didn't even read the amount of votes that mith had before I posted a vote on him. I literally clicked the thread, hit reply and said "Vote: mith. Not everyday I can do that." to get a placeholder RVS vote out until I could read. Equinox told me to read her logic, I did, and I agreed with it.

No, he's voting for him because he thinks Socio is town.

So, I'm guessing you don't find "Do you see any scum-motivation behind his posting, and if so, why?" as a valid question and I haven't the slightest as to why you think that. I think it's a very fair and valid question.

Your "suspicion" really has no basis, IP.

Preview Edit to Thor: Gotchya, just wanted clarification on that.

[DemonHybrid]

1. Equinox, threats aren't the best way to get your voice heard. I had just posted my RVS vote.
2. I agree with you on InflatablePie and his preference for being scum.
3. Question for you: Why focus on IP and not other players with strong scumgames who Llamarble mentioned? Sotty, DGB, Thor and mith (from what I recall) all have strong scum games and you hadn't really focused on talking about them.

Unvote, Vote: InflatablePie

Preview edit: SP became town with that post. I'm going to be looking at the 6 aforementioned people at the moment (Sotty, DGB, Thor, mith, IP, Equinox).

Question without suspicion #1

Wooosh.

I agree with Equi about Chris, town read there.
I'm liking the Llama brothers thus far, though it's weaker.
Equi is working really hard, if scum, and I don't buy that.

I still like Pie for the rope - the buzzing bee who thinks sarcasm is 'srs tell, srsly' and Mith also go on my scum list.
Let's lynch one of them, I still have dibs on a Mith hammer.

Why mith? You hadn't mentioned a thing about him before this post other than "I want the hammer if there's a wagon", and that was during an apparent RVS for you. What changed?

Question without suspicion #2

EBWOP:

On second thought, let's roll with this.

Unvote, Vote: SocioPath

I'm going to let the thread breathe now.

Why? Do you really read Socio's motivation as scum-driven?

Question without suspicion #3

Alright, well 3 times and 2 people, but you get the point. Everyone who I question is NOT my suspect. You're a veteran of mafia and I expect you to know better.

[DemonHybrid]

Yeah, really. I'm in a ton of games at the moment, it was only page 2 and half of the first page posts were confirms. Figured it didn't matter.

[DemonHybrid]

You know me personally. You're my friend on FB and we've played offsite before multiple times. By saying "you're smarter than this", that's a form of appealing to my emotions. Of course, I should know you know better than to try that with me, but Occam's Razor is making my thoughts stop there.

Actually, it's pointing out that your case is full of fallacies and is really quite false, and you are a definite competent player. There's a lot in the case that you've assumed that just isn't true. I'm not trying to appeal to you. Just pointing out the wrong.

You're not getting my point. It's not the questioning part, it's the "BUT LOOK AT ALL THESE OTHER PEOPLE, AND YOU'RE SINGLING ONE PERSON OUT" part.

Yeah, but I stated that question without suspicion and was waiting for an answer.

You said "everyone can be scum". That's like me going around saying "everyone can be town", or "people vote for other people", or "scum can talk at night". It's obvious and isn't really content.

But it was an assisting part of my point. If I sat here with one post and went "Oh, anyone could be scum or town. Anyway, back to not posting anything", yeah, you'd have a valid point, but it's like you don't even realize I had a whole other 95% of the post that dealt with other things.

It was supposed to be obvious and it's something Llama completely passed over.

This statement was talking about this:

Anyways, you agree with me about Equinox. Wagon up?

What? No, I said I wasn't denying the fact that he

could

be scum.

FoS: LlamaFluff

Not the one you're talking about. A bit of a miscommunication there. This:

I'm not denying that Equinox could be scum, however, it's weird that you believe that it's an Equinox-IP team due to Equinox's behavior, yet you won't vote for or mention IP and instead debunk the wagon. Why?

Was also not meant to be a trap. It was a legitimate question. I never said anything was a trap; I even stated the opposite.

I don't care. There was a VC posted shortly after your vote: you at least HAD to have seen that before changing your vote to me. Right after Klazam switched sides, too.

Or, because I hit reply, voted mith, walked away from my computer, came back, read up to Equinox's threat and then posted and agreed with her on you. Just as I said.

Except obviously he does, and that's why he's voting him. Seriously DH, that question was the epitome of active lurking. Or was at least very very stupid.

"Do you see any scum-motivation behind his posting,

and if so, why?

"

1. I wanted the why more than anything.
2. I wanted to clarify the suspicion on Socio so that it was clearly understood.

You're beating a dead horse.

Question for you, DH. If you're not part of the scum on my wagon, then who is? Preferably in order of most likely to least likely, thanks.

I have scumreads that I have stated. I'm not going to analyze wagons quite yet; I'm focusing on behaviors and logical fallacies. I suspect no one on your wagon, since DGB and Llama are not on it.

@DH - Then you should stop making your posts sound like statements instead of actual questions. There is nothing else to answer though, your first question sounded like a statement, so I ignored it.

What kind of excuse is that? I thought my terminology was very clear.

This is also looking like a response. When someone makes a challenging and valid statement against someone else's play, the normal thing to expect is a response, yet you completely ignored it. Even if they aren't phrased as direct questions, you at least have

something

to say, right?

[DemonHybrid]

I agree with Equi about Chris, town read there.

I'm interrupting my reading to answer this. I don't agree. Could be a alt faking the nO0b card, I don't know. Maybe he's from a weak team. I will judge him on his own merit.

Do you think that someone would create an alt just to start out faking the noob card? I'm finding that hard to believe.

[DemonHybrid]

DH, don't think I'm letting you out of my sights either. Just diverting my attention. Although, to clarify, you don't suspect ANYONE on my wagon? Despite it being a L-2 RVS wagon? Is it impossible that there was scum on my wagon?

Like I've said: You, Llama and DGB are on my scumlist. We don't have a flip, and therefore, wagon information is useless at this point. That isn't to say that voting behavior should be looked at, but it shouldn't be the main focus.

DemonHybrid - 45 is just weird. Points 1 and 3 look out of place in a post where he ends up voting InflatablePie, and point 2 (presumably the reason for that vote) is agreement with something Equinox never said. Then comes the discussion with LlamaFluff (and later InflatablePie), during which I'm noticing a big hole that needs filling:

DemonHybrid, what do you think of Equinox? You've talked an awful lot about her without actually saying anything about your read on her.

First of all, at the moment, I'm fine with Equinox. If I had suspected her, I would have said something about it. She's doing a heavy amount of scumhunting and she's making a lot of sense. I asked her about the other people who play strong scum games to clarify my read on her, and #49 was a strong townish response. I believe I have the right to agree with a point, even though I don't have a specific read on a person.

[DemonHybrid]

Sorry, I hit submit before it was finished.

Pie, your wagon was followed with a vote from you onto yourself. I don't think that a wagon like that has a lot of worth looking at. I'm busy with other things.

mith, second of all, what was odd about my exchange with LlamaFluff?

[DemonHybrid]

Here, just to humor you, I tallied up the wagon when you were L-1:

InflatablePie (6): Equinox, Thor, Llamarble, Klazam, DH, IP

This was on page 3. Equinox reads off town to me, as does Thor. Llamarble is iffy, but not a strong scum read. I'm not sure what to make of his OMGUS. Klazam is still unreadable to me because I can't figure out his motivation.

So, yeah, no strong scum reads on your wagon. However, I noticed something in your ISO. You barely mention Llamarble, even though he's one of the people on your wagon. You've said a ton about Klazam, but almost nothing about Llamarble. Can you give me a full read on him?

[DemonHybrid]

@Sotty: Sure, sorry. I have a habit of copy-pasting and manually adding quote tags. I'll remember that for now on.

[DemonHybrid]

DemonHybrid: Fair enough if you would have spoken up on suspecting Equinox, but wouldn't you also speak up (before now, when you have been asked about her directly) if you found her townish? That whole exchange with LlamaFluff reads like you were trying to defend Equinox without actually coming out and committing to a town read (in case things went south?).

First in 51, we have you responding to LlamaFluff's vote by questioning his stance on meta; the follow-up in 55 then asks (paraphrasing) "Well if you think it's Equinox-IP, why aren't you picking on IP??".

So that's part of what was odd about that exchange. Then you apparently take offense when he implies you agree with him about Equinox - again without actually saying "No, I think she's town", followed by some "I FOSed you and you didn't respond" sulking. Meh.

(I'm not sure which point you're talking about with "I believe I have the right to agree with a point, even though I don't have a specific read on a person." - if you're talking about your post 45 point 2, I'm still lost, because you're saying you have the right to agree to a point which was never made. If you're talking about some other point, clarify.)

I apologize, but I also believe that I've said a few times that Equinox was not on my scumlist to IP. I would have assumed that it was implied at this part.

About my point to Llama about his avoidance of attacking IP, you have to realize that IP had a huge wagon at that point. If he really believed an Equinox-IP scumteam, he would have sided with the much larger wagon instead of voting Equinox and letting it go, since an IP scumflip would incriminate Equinox to him and vice versa. I don't find it genuine.

As far as my agreeing with Equinox, at the time, I thought she was talking about preference meta and I agreed with that at the time, even though that's what she wasn't talking about. It was a misunderstanding. I also didn't have a strong read on her until her response at #49, which was the point I was trying to stress.

Basically, in a nutshell: I didn't have a clear town read on Equinox until #49, but I agreed with her in my point 2 in #45. I thought my town read on Equinox was implied from my exchange with LlamaFluff (when I said multiple times that I didn't agree with Equinox being scummy), which is something that you noted, so I'm not sure why you brought all of it up.

Pie: Where's your Llamarble read?

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP

I apologize, but I also believe that I've said a few times that Equinox was not on my scumlist to IP and LlamaFluff. I would have assumed that it was implied at this part.

I forgot that I talked to both Llama and IP about my read on Equinox.

[DemonHybrid]

Another EBWOP:

but I agreed with her in my point 2 in #45.

but I agreed with her in my point 2 in #45 (however, as stated above, it's not the point she was trying to get across).

I typed it hastily. Also, while thinking about it, I still had the mindset that she was talking about preference meta. Apologies.

[DemonHybrid]

Ok... but "not on my scumlist" does not equal "town", anymore than you telling LlamaFluff you weren't ruling her out as scum equates to you calling her obvscum. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you never talked about your "read" on Equinox except in the negative ("I'm not ruling her out"; "I didn't say that!"; "I never posted any suspicion of her").

And that isn't enough? I'm pretty sure I said it was implied a few times now.

The point is that when you were asked directly about her alignment (by me), you brought up some points in her favor which I would have thought would be relevant in discussing her previously. I'm trying to figure out why you didn't bring them up immediately, rather than going to more indirect route of "I'm not ruling Equinox out, but you should be voting IP if you think that". (Note that the "strong townish response" she supposedly gave in post 49 was before the LlamaFluff and InflatablePie exchanges.) My current hypothesis is that you didn't bring them up because you're lying scum, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

My exact read on Equinox had not been relevant at the time. I asked Equinox a question, she responded. I let it go and agreed with her. Llama said that I posted suspicion on her. I didn't. If I don't have a scum read, then you could at least be able to deduce that I have a null or higher read. Sure, I didn't specify her as exact town, but I was busy talking to Llama and IP about other things. At least I can back up my claim by showing that there was no reason or motivation to attack Equinox, especially when I say something like "She could be scum, but nah. Lets focus on you instead, Llama".

I can't speak for what's in LlamaFluff's mind or what he should have done, but when I look at pairings early in a game I don't tend to treat those reads as stone cold 100% certainty, and my vote tends to go on whoever's behaviour I'm keying on. "You think this pair are scum together, so why don't you vote for the other one instead?" always sets off alarms for me (except in cases where there really is that near-certainty; i.e. "if Equinox is scum, IP must be, so IP is the better vote").

First off, that first sentence is laughable. I'd like you to tell me who is 100% certain about a read at this point in a game. That's "confirmed scum" or "confirmed town" territory.

Second, do you need me to restate the wagons on both Equinox and IP? IP had about 4 or 5 people on him at the time, yet Llama votes a single vote on Equinox and calls them a scum team. Soooooooooo...that's not weird how?

And it's in my personality to apologize to someone when I respect them, and I do it non-consciously. I've never played with you before, and you pretty much created the site, so a little of Matt mixed in with my DemonHybrid for a second there.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm at the gym at the moment, so I'll get back to you about Llama in an hour. It's possible that I misread his statement.

Second, what does it matter whether I has a town or null read on Equinox anyway? I agreed with her, and I stated before that I don't HAVE to agree with someone and only someone I have a solid town read on. If you told me that no one has ever agreed with someone they have a null read on, I wouldn't believe you. Since you know from my exchange with Llama and IP that she was at least not a scumread, then why are you pushing that as a point?

[DemonHybrid]

Why do you keep bringing up that you agreed with her (or what you thought she was implying, to be more accurate)? My issue there was that you were justifying your bandwagon vote by agreeing with something that wasn't said; it had nothing whatsoever to do with your read on her.

I keep bringing up your read on Equinox because:

a. It's odd that you didn't share that read when you formed it, rather than later.
b. Your exchange with LlamaFluff seems to me like a soft-defense of a scumbuddy without committing to a stance on her, or perhaps an opportunistic attempt to push LlamaFluff toward IP after misunderstanding his Equinox-IP statement, or both.

Because I thought that was the point of the argument that you have against me. If the whole issue is the reasoning on my agreeing with something she never said, it was just misunderstanding. I thought she was talking about preference meta, which is something that resonated louder than just team meta.

For your a.: I felt like I didn't need to. You keep saying that it has nothing to do with my read, yet you keep talking about it.
b.: First off, I read back to Llama's post. I CAN see the conditional between Llama's read on Equinox and IP as a scumteam, but he mentions nothing about "IP is scum if Equinox is". He says "Equinox and IP are outed as a scumteam". I'd like him to confirm what he meant, though.

Second off, you're missing the motivation. If it's a misunderstanding and he really did state a conditional, then you can understand why I'd push a point like that without knowing what he really meant, right? If he meant a conditional, it wasn't exactly black and white. More like camo-colored.

LlamaFluff

: Can you confirm whether or not your Equinox-IP scumteam read was a conditional "IP is scum if Equinox is", or whether you stated both of them was a scumteam to you at that specific time (as in, both were scummy and both would flip scum)?

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, wow. I thought you mean like, out, as in out there.

Wow, I read that so fucking wrong.

I need to reread everything.

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote

while I reread everything.

[DemonHybrid]

Whether you misread LlamaFluff's statement as a conditional or not is pretty irrelevant to my case; it's clear from context and the timing of the game that a statement of "Equinox and IP are scumbuddies" would have been based primarily on Equinox's play (since LlamaFluff was attacking and voting her), and would not be something LlamaFluff held as absolutely certain. (To be fair, I'm not sure I would find it all that less scumstastic if you were trying to push him from his stated vote to a L-1 even if he had presented perfectly symmetrical cases on the two of them. "You like this pairing, why don't you vote for the other half?" just resonates with me as a strong scumtell.)

Not that this matters anymore, but voting for someone with 0 votes as opposed to voting for someone who has 4 or 5 votes already on them and stating that they're a scumteam. I don't know how many times I need to tell you that that just seemed weird to me.

Bweh? I said that finding you agreeing with an imaginary Equinox stance scummy had nothing to do with your read on her; that's a separate issue from what you're responding to here (finding it odd that you didn't share your read sooner).

So, two separate issues? I explained both of them. A few times now. You keep ignoring the motivation (Point #1: Agreeing with a stance that I thought was obvious and implied, but happened to misunderstanding. Equinox's RVS tell on IP was only slightly different than mine anyway; Her's was team meta, mine was preference meta. Point #2: I just didn't feel the need to state my read since it was implied.)

Now, if for point #1, my motivation was just to get out of RVS, you'll see me and everyone else grab onto whatever they can. I thought what Equinox implied was clear, so I used it to get out of RVS and it wasn't. Since then, our case reasonings have split and that was that. You're literally focusing on ONE end-of-RVS post, when everyone was grabbing onto whatever information they can to leave RVS. Surely you find the act of focusing on that just absurd, right?

For point #2, if both 1. I didn't find the need to state my read and 2. I felt that through my exchange with Llama and IP it was implied, then what's the big deal? Because you didn't read it properly to get my stance on Equinox and you felt like I answered your question about my read on Equinox with weird timing? You got your answer. I explained where I expressed that Equinox wasn't a scumread. I really don't know what else you want. I really didn't mean or even imply in the least that I thought Equinox was scum when I told Llama that "Equinox could be scum, but...", since Equinox was a major player in our back and forth and the only point that I wanted to stress with that statement is that Equinox isn't confirmed or obvious town to me to support my argument. That is all implied and it's not my fault that you didn't pick up on something like that. Again, it wasn't my intention to make it some sort of elaborate puzzle to figure out my read on Equinox, but it's really not that hard to deduce. I just didn't find it all that important to clearly state "OH BY THE WAY, I FIND EQUINOX TOWN." in big bold letters.

Anyway, I'm still reading. I'll have a big post tomorrow with reads on everyone and come back with a fresh mind.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm still working on that wall post. It'll be up in a few hours. I promise. I'm trying to get every little detail.

[DemonHybrid]

Does it have anything at all to do with my preference for being town?

And I have a few pages done of my re-read and wall post. I'm working on the rest right now.

[DemonHybrid]

Chris B:

#78: I find this post to be very town. He realizes that his argument may be a mistake, so he points out the flaws before he lays it down. You may call it sort of an anchor, but I don't think he'd attack someone like Equinox while laying down a "I might be making a mistake" post.

(-1 to Chris B)

Sotty:

#112: I like this post. I don't find Llamarble extremely scummy, despite that iffy vote, but I can understand how she came to all of her points.

(-1 to Sotty)

Thor:

#23: Thor, read this post again. What scumtell did you mean? You're agreeing with something that Equinox didn't state. By that logic, mith, it's weird that you pointed out my agreeing but not Thor's. It's inconsistent.

(+1 to mith)

#93: This is a little....small for the amount of time that's gone by since your last contribution.

#102: I read this as "If thor is scum, mith is not" and vice versa.
#105 and #107: I get a bad feeling about these posts. Note to self: Look back at these later after a few flips.


Klazam:

#43: If sarcasm is a valid scumtell, why not talk about SP's post?

(+.5 to Klazam)

#52: Null questioning. If he keeps up the one line questions, I'm going to be more suspicious.
#74: Back to townie explanations. Clear and to the point and no bullshitting or town cred grabbing.

(-.5 to Klazam)

#88-#91: I think SP and Llama are just misguided on Klazam and don't understand where he's coming from. Sort of a null back and forth.

DGB:

#25: DGB, was this an RVS vote?
#26: A null question. Both town and scum would have motivation to ask this.
#27: A bit of a townish question. Perhaps a gambit to tip DGB off on overly aggressive but non-logical players to bite and attack her for this post, but eh.

(-0.5 to DGB)

#110: Why don't you have reads on the lurkers?

#115:

(+1 to DGB)

. No. Read motivations. This seems opportunistic.



SP:

#37: Sarcasm post #1. Maybe I'm seeing the tone shift between the first paragraph and the last statement.
#44: Maybe noticed the Klazam dissonance.

(-1 to SP)

#81: And the scum motivation behind posting in an antagonistic way is? I'm putting this null as now, but it's still not a definite scum indicator.
#84: And this is a townish response to the vote.

(-1 to SP)

Equinox:

#18: Looks like an RVS post. Apparently it wasn't.
#29: Note to self: Equinox only thinks Thor knows the same thing. Not sure if Thor does know the same thing or only thinks.

Thor:

did you 100% know what Equinox was talking about (by pre-game talk) or was it just a guess?

#34: A little townish for this post for getting people to talk.

(-.5 to Equinox)

#40: A stronger tone. This post is null, even though it follows a townish post because I'm not sure if it's an act of overbearingness. I didn't see that attitude from Equinox that early in the last game that I played with her.

#46: A derp moment. It reads off as townie as me because any careful wagon building would be calculated with greater care and I don't think Equi would make a post like this.

(-1 to Equinox)

#49: Would this be something Thor could have picked up before this game started? Really curious on that.

#80: It's a bit weird that Equinox is using meta still...

#83: Ewww, nononononono.

(+1 to Equinox)

Equi's posts, from #83 on: You know....you mentioned a LOT about other people, but...SP only twice. Once saying that he misrepped a quote from you....but that's it. All the while, you kept your vote on him until you can re-do your reads. That was like...10 of your posts into the future.

I'm not liking this.


IP:

#28: That last part of the sentence is null. Joking? Trying to look overly calm? Who knows.
#41: The 3 questions near the end (especially that last one to himself): They don't look like well thought out questions.

(+1 to IP)

#58: Uhhhhhhhh...voting himself. First off, why do you disagree with the sarcasm tell? Second off, I'm not liking the self vote in retrospect. Your sarcasm would be fine on it's own, but a mixture of meddling with your wagon gives me an uneasy feeling that I don't like.

(+1 to IP)

#67: A Klazam vote. Why? Is it because of the sarcasm scumtell and that only?
#95: I'm ignoring the back and forth between IP and I because 1. I explained myself, 2. Equinox's point is null and 3. part of it contains LlamaFluff.



mith:

#38: Townish questioning. Not sure how I feel about that end statement though, about his experience. Null.
#86: Um...you like LlamaFluff and his good points, but don't like him because of gut.

Uh, what?

(+.5 to mith)

Llamarble:

#19: Self-voting is null, it could mean anything.
#22: This post looks town for the motivation, but it's wrong. I don't think Sotty would even think of picking town if given the choice and I think the Don Corleone scummy is a turnoff to prevent WIFOM lynches.

(-1 to Llamarble)

#32: This vote looks sort of opportunistic. Just a hunch.

(+1 to Llamarble)

LlamaFluff:

#48: What's wrong with non-random first votes?
#53: I'm ignoring the exchange between Llama and I because of my misunderstanding of his statement in this post.
#54: Again, no one's mentioning SP and his sarcasm.

(+.5 to LlamaFluff)

Sevei:

#85:

(+1 to Sevei)

. Post.




At post #117. More to come later.

I haven't tallied them up yet, but + points are scum points, - points are town points.

I plan on finishing this. Almost done with page 5.

[DemonHybrid]

I fucking hate writing wall posts. I get really lazy sometimes.

[DemonHybrid]

I need some sleep. The rest will need to wait till tomorrow when I'm out of work (around 10:30 PM EDT. I know.)

[DemonHybrid]

Yes, I will. These are just notes that I'm jotting down.

Just wanted to show that I'm not bullshitting and active lurking. I won't have time to finish this until tonight but everyone is welcome to discuss it.

[DemonHybrid]

Because I'm fucking pissed off at my job, I'm just answering this:

DemonHybrid: “Just wanted to show that I'm not bullshitting and active lurking.” - Oh how I hate statements like this. Townies don’t need to “show” they aren’t bullshitting/active lurking, they just don’t do those things.

Sotty keeps replying "DH needs to do this, DH needs to do that", so let me rephrase it then if you don't like such a statement. I just want to show that I haven't died in a car accident. Is that better? Because it's the same thing.

[DemonHybrid]

I'd like to get a general opinion on whether or not people believe that scum would be more inclined not to bus, especially with someone like DGB. I would suggest that we narrow the lynch pool to the people off of the wagon (and yes, that includes me as well, if needed), but I'd like a show of hands of the people who believe that scum would be resistant to bus (and therefore, have at least one off of the wagon, most likely).

[DemonHybrid]

I didn't say that I wasn't concluding because I hated my job, so yeah.

mith, why didn't you comment on the on-wagon vs off-wagon votes, especially when I commented that I was off of the wagon? Do you think that one of the scum is off of the wagon?

[DemonHybrid]

Also, where is your vote on me?

[DemonHybrid]

Obviously I think at least one of the scum is off the wagon if I'm "not overly suspicious" of those on it.

Vote: DemonHybrid

What?

So...are you suspicious of the people off of the wagon BECAUSE you aren't suspicious of the people on it? Or...do you actually have reasons for suspecting who you do? That was a weird statement.

[DemonHybrid]

I wrote that because they kept me longer than usual. I went to bed and the day had ended before I could do more work on it. The DGB flip changes everything in retrospect.

Also, I'm not denying that you analyzed it, but saying that "I'd like to go for the off-wagon people because I'm not overly suspicious of the people on-wagon" makes it seem like you're discrediting your own analysis and reads off as weird to me. Why even say something like that instead of "because of my aforementioned analysis, I'd like to go for the people off the wagon" instead of "I'm looking at the people off the wagon because of my stance of the people ON the wagon"?

[DemonHybrid]

V/LA until Monday at 8 PM EDT.

I'll be sporadically posting but I work 10-8 Sat and Sun, and 8-8 on Monday and it's a holiday weekend and yeah.

[DemonHybrid]

D2VC3:

DH (3): mith, Sotty, Llamarble
Sevei (2): IP, Thor
Llamarble (1): Equinox
Klazam (1): Llamarble
mith (1): LlamaFluff

Not Voting: DH, Klazam,ChrisB,Sevei

With 11 alive it's 6 to lynch.

Chris B is on V/LA until the 31st.
Sotty is V/LA until 30th.

@Mod: Llamarble is voting for Sevei, not me.

@Thor: I picked this game because VT is my favorite role. Things feel more like being in a sherlock holmes novel instead of some sort of uninteresting game of hide-from-the-spotlight.

@mith:

DemonHybrid: You're twisting; I didn't say I was looking at the people off wagon because I didn't find those on wagon suspicious. What I said was that I was intended to read through the wagon later - the (I thought rather obvious, but apparently not) implication being that there wasn't much urgency to look at those players who I wasn't suspicious of, contrasted to the off-wagon group who I then went on to analyze.

Alright. No need to freak out. I just thought it was a little weird that you worded it that way.

I got out of work a bit early today so I have some time to do some analysis. Like the others, I'd like to avoid the DGB wagon for now and I'm kind of looking at Sevei at the moment. I'll ISO her and see what interactions she's had with DGB and give my input later tonight.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm being pretty sold by the DH as scum arguements. I think the smart money is either Sevei or DH at this stage.

What's the DH case again?

Wait, what?

Also, I woke up a few hours ago. I've been doing a lot of falling asleep and whatnot.

I did take a look at Sevei and DGB. I can find specific examples if people would like me to, but in a nutshell, Sevei put up a fight against DGB pretty heavily, while DGB barely mentioned Sevei. I don't have a lot of Sevei scum meta and can't tell if she's passive or aggressive towards buddies.

@Sevei

, can you please link the game in which you were scum?

mith has been getting increasingly tunnely and scummy for a while now. I still think Sotty is town. I'm not sure whether Thor hit his head and got amnesia, or whether he is scum.

Why did you forget the case on me when you agreed with it pages ago? It didn't exactly change.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm not sure whether Thor hit his head and got amnesia, or whether he is scum.

Why did you forget the case on me when you agreed with it pages ago? It didn't exactly change.

Yes, those are the only possible reasons I asked Sotty what the case on you was.
Proceed.

Then word it that way. I had to double-take for a moment.

[DemonHybrid]

Really, sotty? That was completely clear to you and can't see how that can mean "Wait, what was the case on DH again? I forgot and I need a reminder"?

[DemonHybrid]

@mith and Chris B: Except that a White Flag setup would be bastardized with the inclusion of daytalk without notification to the players, unless I'm mistaken.

@Sotty: You guys were talking about Sevei. You mentioned me and then he asked what the case was with me. I had to double-take and ask to make sure. That's really all there is to it. Notice when Thor answered, I let it go and he let it go.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, Sotty, I'm waiting for Sevei's scum meta. I need to do a bit of research; Sevei says she's a bad scum player and I'd like to apply that to this game.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, Sotty, I'm waiting for Sevei's scum meta. I need to do a bit of research; Sevei says she's a bad scum player and I'd like to apply that to this game.

I'mma go ahead and answer this because I want to force Sevei to answer my question and not pretend to skip it by answering this one. Iso Sevei; she gave me her scum meta earlier.

Oh, did she?

I must have read over it. Let me go check.

[DemonHybrid]

She seemed to place suspicion onto smargaret and then inch her way back to townliness. She hopped back onto her case later on in the game, but then gave null-to-scummish reads.

Doesn't tell me a lot; though, Sevei's determination in getting DGB lynched was by far and away greater in this game. Unless I'm mistaken again, she hasn't really given DGB a null read; she called her scummy since the start.

[DemonHybrid]

Fun fact: Sevei mentions DGB in nearly every post; the only exception was the last and the first two. The last post was some defending and the first two were her catching up posts.

Has anyone suspect both Llamarble and Sevei today?

Those people should be looked at much more heavily; I don't think Sevei, as scum, would have bussed BOTH partners with the White Flag mechanic. That's a silly assumption.

[DemonHybrid]

Just LlamaFluff.

Llama, what do you say about this? Do you really think Sevei and Llamarble are scum together?

[DemonHybrid]

@DH: Equinox answered this, but just out of curiosity, did you read/analyze my whole ISO in from that game in four minutes?

Not word-for-word, post-for-post. I wanted a gist of how you acted with your scumbuddy.

LlamaFluff

: You have a knack of not answering my questions =|

[DemonHybrid]

Never mind, you did. Derp.

[DemonHybrid]

What do you mean by "independently in your short list"? I just want to make sure I understand that completely.

[DemonHybrid]

And you have such a strong scumread on me, so are you assuming Amrun is scum then?

[DemonHybrid]

For right now (and I'll explain more if it's asked of me):

Amrun's replacement reads off as extremely strong. I'm not sure what to make of it, or her defense of me.
Llama's explanation that "Sevei and Llamarble are scumreads independently" was very weird.
I'm pretty okay with Sotty's suspicion and tunneling on me. She's using a lot of meta but it looks very genuine.
mith's tunneling, on the other hand, is bad. He's being very cautious with what he's saying and things look like elaborate future-lynch setups, such as the "Amrun can only be scum with DH" stuff that he put down. I'm not liking it.
After reading Sevei a lot more, I'm not comfortable with her lynch. Her attack on DGB just seems a little too real.

I still stand firmly by the theory that 1 scum was on DGB's wagon, 1 off. There's the problem of on-wagon/off-wagon probabilities. THAT'S why I'm having trouble finding a vote; most of the really scummy people today so far have been ON DGB's wagon but I'm looking back to probabilities. However, counting my scumreads with the amount of people on and off DGB's wagon, Amrun, ChrisB, LlamaFluff and Llamarble were off the wagon. All 4 of those slots have had scummy actions attributed to them (as well as townish actions). But at the same time, so has Thor and mith, who were on the wagon. I'm alright with IP, Sevei and sotty being solid town reads at this point, and because of that,

Vote: mith

, even though the greater probability is TECHNICALLY voting off the wagon.

As for the questions for me: DGB is a moderately hard person to read; I think IP asked me that. I didn't want to rush into a vote but you know that DGB's lurkiness really set off the scum radar for me for the most part. She's about a 7 out of 10 on a hard to read scale in comparison to other people. This is my first game with her, however, and the playerlist is very strong, so that might have a LOT of influence on my uneasiness of her; I'm very uneasy with a lot of peoples' lynches, as they have a lot of town AND scum motivation behind what they've been doing.

So, I would say at the moment that mith, LlamaFluff, ChrisB, Llamarble and Thor are my top 5 lynch candidates in that order. Amrun's really a conditional, but I'm not going to commit a read to that and speculate future lynches like mith did. Amrun and Klazam's spots by pure analysis get a town read from me at the moment; mith's flip, if the game continues, would have me look back at Amrun/Klazam's posts and re-evaluate my read on her.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, ChrisB has had 15 posts and I see a lack of hounding him for that from mith. His last comment was "Well...uh, DGB probably got bussed. And I don't get the sotty read", which has been talked about a lot since then.

Another future conditional mith has posted is a "Chris is town if DH is scum" post. He seems to like ending his arguments on that note a LOT.

[DemonHybrid]

No, Equinox asked me that question. Apologies.

And despite my vote, if anyone wants a Llama or ChrisB lynch (and especially ChrisB, but I put Llama as 2nd because if mith dies and the game is still going, then I'd probably doubt that pairing depending on my reread), I'm alright with that; moreso ChrisB than Llama at the moment, because the way I see things now, mith's notification of ChrisB's lurky and scummy behavior but unwillingness to explore that really shows a connection between the two.

[DemonHybrid]

DemonHybrid: You should take a course in logic. "Amrun scum implies DemonHybrid scum" is not equivalent to "DemonHybrid scum implies Amrun scum". I am saying the former. There are several possible scumbuddies for you (LlamaFluff, Llamarble, Sevei at the top, in that order), but it doesn't really matter when we can just lynch you.

You keep saying I'm tunneling. I'm not. I have been voting for you most of the game because you've been my top suspect most of the game, but I have not been ignoring everyone else (

that

would be tunneling).

Setting up future lynches? If, by some miracle and despite the constant attempts to distract from your wagon, I am able to get you lynched, and you are in fact scum,

we win the game

. There is no future lynch. If I get you lynched and you are town,

I am saying Amrun is town too

- that's the exact opposite of setting up a lynch.

Will wait to respond re: my Chris B stance until you answer Equinox's question.

My point, though, is because you are so dead-set on me being scum (since you have literally mentioned it nearly EVERY POST since your first one, hence the tunneling accusation), and BECAUSE it is a white flag setup, do you suspect Amrun at the moment? THAT wasn't an accusation; that was a valid question.

Also, it's quite easy to say "This person is scum if DH is, and DH is my top suspect" and when I flip town, to go "ehhhhh well I'm still comfortable with that person because of the reasoning stated earlier". That's why I'm worried.

[DemonHybrid]

Equinox: I stated why it took me so long to put down a vote in #587.

[DemonHybrid]

Yes. Yes you are.

[DemonHybrid]

Sorry, I missed her first question.

DemonHybrid, I've got a couple more questions:

1) Chris B slipped earlier that he thought scum would have corrected their buddies' behaviors during the day, and we don't have day talk in this game. What do you think this says about his alignment?

2) You've been onto mith since the start of the day and haven't relented; why did you wait so long before voting him?

Thor665, an excuse to better admire your charming beard: What are your current reads of Sevei and Sotty7?

1. Are you sure he didn't mean team QT advice and not scum daytalk? That's not really a slip. He's scummy, but not for that reason.

In fact, that's sort of the antithesis of a slip. Like I said before, I think we would have been notified if scum have daytalk. I'd like ChrisB to tell us if he meant Team QT talk and not scum team daytalk.

[DemonHybrid]

Can't believe it took me this long to notice that the ID boxes have gender on them.

While I'm in agreement with a lot of what Amrun says, I'm missing the argument that Sotty is town. I'm willing to hear a counter argument before I vote.

I also firmly believe DGB got bussed.

Weak assertion that DGB was bussed. "Waiting to hear a counter argument..." even though the Sotty read has been done to death already and he still hasn't given his input.

I see his question to the people who haven't hammered DGB yet as an attempt to gain town points, knowing what alignment DGB was going to flip. Seems a little too confident seeing as how a lot of people were on the fence with DGB. And his vote wasn't even on DGB at the time.

DGB and Chris could have very well been a scum vs scum. I'm also noticing that DGB was very lax and fencesitty when it came to mith, calling him a mix between town and scum but still talking as if she was on good term with him throughout the day.

Not to mention that Chris has had 15 posts so far today (with a few of them explaining why he hasn't posted).

[DemonHybrid]

*so far altogether

Posted that while going out the door.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm voting for mith.

[DemonHybrid]

DH, tell me how the ChrisB/DGB interaction is a bus. Explain it.

Now, goof - I brought up the time difference because I also haven't played MS on an American forum, and hadn't realised how quickly the game would move while I was asleep. I'm not planning on taking any days where I'm not on here, and I'm not reading/responding, but if I'm taking hours to respond, it's got far more to do with my new schedule than it has to do with lurking. If I go past the 24 hour point without responding, feel free to jump all over me, and decide if my subsequent excuses are full of shit or not.

I think that pushing IIoA on someone's first post is somewhat harsh, but I'll accept the point to an extent. However, some of the most successful scum teams I've seen have had aggressive players in them, especially early in the game. Is this particularly different on this forum, or are you just easily swayed by a strong opening gambit? This goes for both VCA and jumping in early.

This is a bit of weird interaction, especially the part about "feel free to jump all over me if I don't get back with a response".

Without any prodding or questioning, the next post...

Goof also has my FOS, based on his jumping all over lurkers within hours of the game starting. Lurker-hunting is always a nice way to make it look like you're doing something active. On top of that, his 'town list' corresponds exactly with my 'scum list'.

After saying basically that it's alright to hop on him for not giving a response...

I'm posting partially to explain why I'm not hammering you. I haven't had a chance to go through your posts, along with Sociopath's, since his insanity yesterday, as much as I would like. Whichever way your lynch goes, we're likely to get some information. That doesn't mean I 'don't care about the lynch', it means that I'm not convinced enough to put my vote onto you.

And I don't see how no one views this as "oh shit, my buddy is at L-1. I need time to find out what to do" assuming Chris scum. He ends up just saying that he agrees with the lynch without a vote, rather keeping his vote on Llamarble.

In fact, with his weak pushing on Equinox, me AND his fencesitting on DGB along with his lurkiness, I'm willing to vote him over mith; if Chris dies and flips town, I'll re-read mith. But I don't see the towniness in him anymore after his first post. He does a lot of fencesitting, excuses and lurking.

Unvote, Vote: ChrisB

[DemonHybrid]

And here's about the time where you ask yourself "Where's the scum motivation in voting for someone who's nearly a universal town read?"

There isn't any. You guys just aren't seeing his weird lurky fencesitting scumminess and I want this lynch to happen.

[DemonHybrid]

I actually was feeling much more town about DH until that very last ost.
::sad, yet manly, face::

Can anyone explain to me, with examples, why Chris B is so town? Bonus points if you can make it past his first post.

[DemonHybrid]

And as well, I wish for a chance to have my presented evidence to not be a waste of time. I'm well aware that Sotty and mith find me scummy, and Amrun obviously doesn't take my Chris read to be serious at all. The cases take time and I'd rather my words be believed at least, not chocked away to "well, you're scum anyway, so go fuck yourself/I'm not listening/lol yeah right".

[DemonHybrid]

Actually, I'm pretty neutral on Chris but somewhat agree with the town read on him and, at worst, put him into a mushy middle ground. I actually just think 629 is inherently scummy all by itself - switch Chris' name out with a variety of other players and it's still scummy.

Just saying that I want to be listened to, is all.

[DemonHybrid]

At Michelle's... I thought I was going to get on this morning, but I overslept... will have to catch up tomorrow.

I expect more DH votes by then, slackers.

So, you don't even look at what I have to say about Chris B?

Duly noted.

[DemonHybrid]

Pie, what about a DH vote here? His vote on Chris B is terrible

And yet you haven't explained why. In fact, you give a town read on Chris B while still scolding him on nearly every post that he makes, so...

[DemonHybrid]

Really, sotty? That was completely clear to you and can't see how that can mean "Wait, what was the case on DH again? I forgot and I need a reminder"?

When you read his question in the context of our conversation it was pretty obvious that he wanted me to explain the DH case in my own words. It looked like you saw something as a slip, when it wasn't, and proceeded to jump all over it.

DH how about you do something productive for a change and give your reads on the players left. Same request to Chris.

like this

While I'm in agreement with a lot of what Amrun says, I'm missing the argument that Sotty is town. I'm willing to hear a counter argument before I vote

lolwut?

This is the first I'm hearing that you find me scummy. How about you make a case on that instead?

and this

ChrisB: Sadly I agree with Equi that this guy is prob town still he's done Jack and shit all game.

also this

I suppose the question is somewhat obvious, but why should I remove this action and put it on someone else?

Because you're wrong. It's really that simple.

You say I make good points but you ignore them anyway.

this too.

Like, you're saying he's attacking you with absolutely no basis and you're sitting there with your finger up your nose wondering why and more importantly, not even starting to suspect him due to anything (like HIS lack of a presence, or his tendency to post sporadic but spread out mini-walls of cases that you say have no basis), so I haven't the slightest of what's going through your brain.

[DemonHybrid]

In fact, NOT A SINGLE PERSON has given me a solid, believable explanation on WHY they think Chris B is town. His play has been OPTIMAL newish scum play and you guys are focusing on fucking -Amrun-?!

[DemonHybrid]

I'm listening, but I was more referring to DGB's clumsy attempt to redirect her wagon onto ChrisB. If that was a bus by DGB, I'll be impressed. I think she was trying to save her hide.

This isn't really good enough. DGB is competent enough to distance when needed.

Plus, you haven't commented on his play, which is the main point of my case.

[DemonHybrid]

For right now (and I'll explain more if it's asked of me):

Amrun's replacement reads off as extremely strong. I'm not sure what to make of it, or her defense of me.
Llama's explanation that "Sevei and Llamarble are scumreads independently" was very weird.
I'm pretty okay with Sotty's suspicion and tunneling on me. She's using a lot of meta but it looks very genuine.
mith's tunneling, on the other hand, is bad. He's being very cautious with what he's saying and things look like elaborate future-lynch setups, such as the "Amrun can only be scum with DH" stuff that he put down. I'm not liking it.
After reading Sevei a lot more, I'm not comfortable with her lynch. Her attack on DGB just seems a little too real.

I still stand firmly by the theory that 1 scum was on DGB's wagon, 1 off. There's the problem of on-wagon/off-wagon probabilities. THAT'S why I'm having trouble finding a vote; most of the really scummy people today so far have been ON DGB's wagon but I'm looking back to probabilities. However, counting my scumreads with the amount of people on and off DGB's wagon, Amrun, ChrisB, LlamaFluff and Llamarble were off the wagon. All 4 of those slots have had scummy actions attributed to them (as well as townish actions). But at the same time, so has Thor and mith, who were on the wagon. I'm alright with IP, Sevei and sotty being solid town reads at this point, and because of that,

Vote: mith

, even though the greater probability is TECHNICALLY voting off the wagon.

As for the questions for me: DGB is a moderately hard person to read; I think IP asked me that. I didn't want to rush into a vote but you know that DGB's lurkiness really set off the scum radar for me for the most part. She's about a 7 out of 10 on a hard to read scale in comparison to other people. This is my first game with her, however, and the playerlist is very strong, so that might have a LOT of influence on my uneasiness of her; I'm very uneasy with a lot of peoples' lynches, as they have a lot of town AND scum motivation behind what they've been doing.

So, I would say at the moment that mith, LlamaFluff, ChrisB, Llamarble and Thor are my top 5 lynch candidates in that order. Amrun's really a conditional, but I'm not going to commit a read to that and speculate future lynches like mith did. Amrun and Klazam's spots by pure analysis get a town read from me at the moment; mith's flip, if the game continues, would have me look back at Amrun/Klazam's posts and re-evaluate my read on her.

[DemonHybrid]

His play is clumsy, but I liked it day 1.

And day 2 he made a big ol' slip that just shows he's not scum.

You mean the slip that really was null in the end, since it was ambiguous as to whether he really meant team QTs or scum daytalk?

[DemonHybrid]

I'm used to that being the default. It was part of the reason I had the theory of you and IP working together - that would be entirely unworkable if day talk doesn't exist, and would partially explain why nobody else considered the theory.

I can also back up that I'm used to it being the default. I pointed towards my experience on the UKFF - you can see for yourself that I think there's maybe been one game that didn't have day talk if you go onto the site.

Oh, I missed this. I guess it was specified as scum daytalk. For some reason, I thought it was an ambiguous "scum can get advice from their QT" statement that was never explained.

This doesn't confirm anything though and I'm still not convinced. Using some meta to prove my point, I was just in 00's Band Mafia as Green Day; it was the game I was finishing up before completely focusing on this game. Tarsonisocelot, who's a relatively new player, claimed her band to be "Some band called Cage the Elephant; never really heard of them. Their main song is Free Love. Whatever." At the time, she sounded extremely convincing, because not only was she newer and not only did we assume that scum got no fakeclaims, it was also a very obscure song. She was relatively believed until endgame when other factors contributed to her and others' lynches; she ended up being Van Halen.

Anyway, my point is that

scum can lie

about behind-the-scenes stuff like that, like "assuming there's daytalk". Focus on Chris' play. DGB started throwing suspicion on Chris near the end of the day before getting lynched. Chris claims that he thought there was daytalk. However, he's making up cases with weak basis, active lurking and giving spread-out mini-wall posts, all of which are scumtells. Who CARES about whether he thought there was scum daytalk? Scum have night talk. Who cares whether DGB shifted suspicion on him at the -end- of the day? You realize that scum can do that to distance before the end of the day comes in order to relieve suspicion on them? It's the EARLY suspicions that really hit home as far as scum interaction goes and I'm really kinda shocked that everyone is arguing for Chris' innocence by forgetting that.

[DemonHybrid]

Did you stop to think that Chris started his Daytalk gibberish on Day 2? And did you stop to think that maybe, assuming he's scum, that he has a competent partner in a SEA of competent players?

[DemonHybrid]

DH, was my 'day talk' slip REALLY that ambiguous?

The one where I said:

Here's a thought, in the meantime, about Demonhybrid, and why I'm leaning towards thinking 'town'. You had that ridiculous, long-running exchange with llama, which was a complete misunderstanding. It was also a very obvious misunderstanding, and I suspect an on-the-ball scum team would have gone 'hey, you realise you look like an idiot there, right?'.

The context is scum talk. The phrase 'scum team' may be a giveaway that I was talking about a scum team. The point I was making actually entirely falls apart based on the fact there's still the team talk rather than scum talk. Once you looked at my explanation, you pointed out that it wasn't enough either. However, realistically, you brought up a point for which no explanation would have meant 'me = town'. I was damned if I was talking about scum, I was damned if I was talking about town, and I was damned if I was being ambiguous.

I'm not liking the amount of crap you're hurling in my direction, and I'm to the point where I'm thinking you're scum getting overly defensive and trying to lynch a less experienced player. I'm also not liking the fact that DGB tried the same tactic.

Unvote, Vote: DemonHybrid

Is THAT why you're voting me?! Do you even fucking read? You know, when I noted the fact that I missed this post but said "who cares, it still started on Day 2 and you could be scum who received advice from your competent buddy"?

This is opportunism at it's finest, people.

[DemonHybrid]

Anyway, aside from the town read I already had on him, Chris B is likely town for the reason Amrun explained; he could have meant team talk instead of day-talk among the scumgroup (doubtful, if he comes from a site where daytalk is common), or he could just be clever scum planting "slips" that make us think he's town, but the way it happened doesn't seem to support either of those.

We talked about this already. It was clearly explained and I recanted the "it was ambiguous" stuff because I missed vital information

.

Why else is he town? You totally cleverly avoided talking about his play.

Again

.

[DemonHybrid]

HEY, DEMONHYBRID. HEY.

Let me give you some meta evidence because I think it's the strongest point for Chris B.

Let's say you're getting together a team of four for Team Mafia. You've known these players from off-site, and you decide that you'll take someone from the old board, too, who has never played on mafiascum.net before. You look at the player list for Team Mafia, and you see it filled with experienced players, many of them experienced ICs and SEs. The PMs come in. For the sake of argument, you have one red PM and three green PMs. You look at your teammates...

Would you give the red PM to the guy who has never played here before?

Possibly. It depends on a ton of factors, like who that guy is and how competent of a scum player he is.

[DemonHybrid]

Possibly. It depends on a ton of factors, like who that guy is and how competent of a scum player he is.

Do you think this would apply to Chris B?

ALSO, DEMONHYBRID, Outdoorsmen Mafia 2, you seem to remember that. You've played with DrippingGoofball-scum before. Thoughts?

I don't know. I'm not relying completely on anything. I'm taking everything about Chris B into account, not just one thing about him and deciding on a read. Who's on his team, anyway?

And I had forgotten that she was in that game. IIRC, I found her hard to read in that game too. She was killed N1 for looking town.

[DemonHybrid]

Wow. So, yeah, lets not even focus on the argument. Lets focus on some stupid bullshit that doesn't really make that much sense, like whether or not I missed the original post or the post where you specified it.

You realize that you're completely ignoring the POINT of the fucking situation?

REGARDLESS of the post number (and yes, I missed the implication that you meant scum daytalk in your original post and the specification of all of your posts about scum daytalk afterwards), the fact remains that

1. I first thought it was ambiguous
2. I realized it wasn't
3. I recanted the fact that I thought it was ambiguous still, but said "Who really gives a fuck? You're probably scum with a smart partner that told you to say that."
4. You vote me for 1 and ignore 2 and 3
5. I tell you that you ignored 2 and 3
6. You post some dumb bullshit about how my point isn't valid because I missed post A and was talking about post B, both with point X, even though I was talking about point X in the first place.

Your vote is stupid and opportunistic. It is opportunistic because I have 3 votes on me, with 2 strong multi-player town reads on it. But the reasoning for your vote is non-existent, because I

recanted what you're voting for and explained why the alternative is STILL scummy

, which you continue to ignore.

Once you come down from your dream world where meanings and implications don't matter, but post order does, I'll be here waiting with a fucking noose.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm used to that being the default. It was part of the reason I had the theory of you and IP working together - that would be entirely unworkable if day talk doesn't exist, and would partially explain why nobody else considered the theory.

I can also back up that I'm used to it being the default. I pointed towards my experience on the UKFF - you can see for yourself that I think there's maybe been one game that didn't have day talk if you go onto the site.

Oh, I missed this. I guess it was specified as scum daytalk. For some reason, I thought it was an ambiguous "scum can get advice from their QT" statement that was never explained.

This doesn't confirm anything though and I'm still not convinced. Using some meta to prove my point, I was just in 00's Band Mafia as Green Day; it was the game I was finishing up before completely focusing on this game. Tarsonisocelot, who's a relatively new player, claimed her band to be "Some band called Cage the Elephant; never really heard of them. Their main song is Free Love. Whatever." At the time, she sounded extremely convincing, because not only was she newer and not only did we assume that scum got no fakeclaims, it was also a very obscure song. She was relatively believed until endgame when other factors contributed to her and others' lynches; she ended up being Van Halen.

Anyway, my point is that

scum can lie

about behind-the-scenes stuff like that, like "assuming there's daytalk". Focus on Chris' play. DGB started throwing suspicion on Chris near the end of the day before getting lynched. Chris claims that he thought there was daytalk. However, he's making up cases with weak basis, active lurking and giving spread-out mini-wall posts, all of which are scumtells. Who CARES about whether he thought there was scum daytalk? Scum have night talk. Who cares whether DGB shifted suspicion on him at the -end- of the day? You realize that scum can do that to distance before the end of the day comes in order to relieve suspicion on them? It's the EARLY suspicions that really hit home as far as scum interaction goes and I'm really kinda shocked that everyone is arguing for Chris' innocence by forgetting that.

Like, did you even really read this?

[DemonHybrid]

Except you realised that it wasn't once you read the follow-up post. My point is that the original post wasn't ambiguous either. And using ambiguity to attack me is a bit bullshitty.

But I'm not. I recanted that. I've said this like 50 times. I'm not using ambiguity to attack you; in fact, at the time, I was attacking your playstyle and Amrun was the one that brought up your scum daytalk; that conversation was a supplement

Once you looked at my explanation, you pointed out that it wasn't enough either. However, realistically, you brought up a point for which no explanation would have meant 'me = town'. I was damned if I was talking about scum, I was damned if I was talking about town, and I was damned if I was being ambiguous.

I read it. It's a valid point because otherwise, you've been playing very scummily and it fits. But if you're going to VOTE me because I'm attacking you over the ambiguity of it (and STILL argue it even though I'm no longer attacking you because it's "ambiguous", as evidenced by the point above), you obviously are just reaching for reasons to vote for me after 3 people were on my wagon.

The rest of your post is you just screaming at me incoherently, so I'll consider myself a winner of the argument at the moment.

Basically, my whole point is this:

1. You active lurk, don't have good reasons for your cases, give spaced out wall posts and you don't really scumhunt that much. On top of that, you had weird interactions with DGB and mith, who I also suspect.
2. Because of ALL of the above, your "scum daytalk" bullshit is

meaningless

. It could mean either town being derpy or scum being told what to do, since we have really competent players in this game.
3. You're voting me because I "attacked" you for your scum daytalk schpiel, when it's really something Amrun brought up. I'm voting you because of 1.

And you continue to ignore talking about your play and focus on the scum daytalk stuff.

So, yes, I fucking read. And I've come to the conclusion that you read, too, but you just like to avoid stuff.

[DemonHybrid]

Here's what I think about his play: "ChrisB: I read him as town consistently yesterday... In light of the flip, the vote for Llamarble over DGB looks bad (but that was my first instinct as well, so hard to blame him for it), and I'm a little wary of the "Should I hammer?" post." Chris B didn't post much day 1, but what he posted was cogent and thorough. I found little fault with him throughout day 1 apart from being on the wrong side of the DGB wagon. Day 2, he was on V/LA, and then his very first post was the scum-talk post; once I looked at the MD Team Mafia thread to see that there was nothing about day-talk in there, I have basically ruled him out as scum.

But you have nothing to say on the scummier parts of his play? You know, how his posting fits in more with active lurking? And how he avoided voting DGB? And for what, to "avoid looking like he's OMGUSing", as I believe it was explained (I may be wrong). And you realize that him starting the talk about scum daytalk on Day 2 fits in with the fact that scum have night talk, and he could have just made it up? I'm not saying that's the sole reason that he's scummy, but is it

possible

that scum could have told him what to say?

This is funny, given your own stalling at the end of day 1.

deflection

Why would he do this? If he were scum with DGB, and he's going to say he agrees with the lynch, why not just hammer? He's the only one off-wagon who expresses suspicion of DGB... and that somehow makes him scummy?

It's White Flag mafia. You were the one that created this setup, and I would imagine that you know how hard it is to lose a buddy and make things much harder when there's a chance DGB could talk her way out of it. I don't think ANY scum would have readily hammered, and especially someone like DGB.

Really? You're comparing an out-of-nowhere defense (of you, ironically) relying on scum having day-talk to scum having fakeclaims and using them?

Yep, because if you hadn't noticed, we thought that they DIDN'T have fakeclaims at first, which made it much more believable. And you avoided my simple point of "scum can lie", especially when told what to do.

And my point is that the existence of alternative possibilities does not negate the weight of the tell. Nothing is 100%

Funny, neither is him being town, yet you're treating him as confirmed town. I'm saying it's a null tell; it's not a town tell by any sense of the word.

Even if I accepted that these are scumtells (and the latter certainly is more a playstyle indicator than anything)

It certainly IS a scumtell. Scum regaining their bearings and posting with waves of cases instead of straight scumhunting shows careful planning put into it; those fake cases take time.

I don't think he's "active lurking" (which to me means "posting lots without actually saying anything of substance"; with Chris B, I see infrequent but content-filled posts), and I'm not seeing where you've made much of an argument for him "making up cases with weak basis".

If you agree that he's posting spaced out walls of posts, then he's active lurking. It means he's not readily scumhunting, applying pressure and really caring about who is scum.

Also, ask Sotty about how his cases lack substance. And his vote on me is just lulz-worthy.

Your case seems to focus more on "hey, let's ignore these things that point to Chris B being town, because he could be scum anyway" than anything.

Because the scumtells outweigh the town tells to me. I like how you're doing that with your suspects too, hypocrite. That's why you're still tunneling me and defending everyone who I even start to make a case about.

[DemonHybrid]

Yes, let's ask Sotty. Oh, wait, we don't have to. I used my incredible gift of 'reading'.

Chris B is town on meta + interactions with DGB end of day one. It's that simple.

He also has the best vote on me out of the three, case wise at least

. I get the sense that he is trying and it feels genuine if off base.

DH, who else is scum outside Chris?

LOL@DH.

But she said that REGARDLESS, your case was still bad. Best out of the three =/= a good case, because she considers the other two cases worse.

It's just like saying "there's a duckbilled platypus, a disgusting plague-infested rat and a guy with lesions all over his face and no jaw. Which one's the cutest out of the 3?"

[DemonHybrid]

Now, if you'd kindly even attempt to reply to my post, that'd be lovely, k thanks

[DemonHybrid]

Chris B is town on meta + interactions with DGB end of day one. It's that simple. He also has the best vote on me out of the three, case wise at least. I get the sense that he is trying and it feels genuine

if off base.

Just in case you're like "BUT ITS ITS DH

LOL DH"

It's seriously in the same post. And people think that you're genuine?

[DemonHybrid]

DH, you keep throwing away peoples town reads on Chris because it's not what you want to hear. There is real little you can do about this and it's akin to screaming at a brick wall. I haven't liked Chris' play though the whole game, but it doesn't change the fact he is very likely town. It sucks for you as scum because he looks like a tasty mislynch, but it's not happening. Find another vote.

So, you believe Chris is an "easy mislynch" when nearly everyone has a town read on him?

Um...yeah. Sure, whatever you'd like to believe.

You're a bad lynch, by the way. I'm good for a mith lynch and a mith lynch only, as I said in that post containing my reads. Nothing has changed.

Preview edit:

Unvote, Vote: mith

"better" enough for you and Thor?

[DemonHybrid]

he's trying to buy himself town cred.

Were it not for the fact that I have a legitimate case, am town and kind of sick of people not really listening to me. I realize that Chris is a universal town read. However, I had a case on him comprising of stuff I felt people were missing. And look at what happened; no one even really paid attention. So, yeah. Pretty awesome.

DH is just so damn scummy, though. Like how he starts a post with "But you have nothing to say on the scummier parts of his play?" and then proceeds to respond to me talking about what DH calls the scummier parts of Chris B's play.

Point out the post of what you mean. I'm sure this will be comedic gold.

Or the incredible 726.

And why is that scummy?

It's okay. No rush. It takes time to absolutely make random shit up.

[DemonHybrid]

^ to mith. Sorry.

[DemonHybrid]

Thor, you can't really believe that that was a scum response..?

[DemonHybrid]

Was IS's FoSes all in the same post? I can't remember.

[DemonHybrid]

mith: Okay. She called his case wrong. Good job, sleuth.

Oh. Wait. Doesn't really change the meaning of jack shit.

Also, your tone was that of assumed Chris B confirmed town. Get real.

[DemonHybrid]

IS's FoSes were all in different posts.

Tasky's were in the same posts, but they were three separate and different FoSes with different intentions. I don't think that style applies to Llamarble.

[DemonHybrid]

IS's FoSes were all in different posts.

Tasky's were in the same posts, but they were three separate and different FoSes with different intentions. I don't think that style applies to Llamarble.

How so?

Go check out their posts yourself and compare them to Llamarble's FoSes. You'll see.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, Chris says that he's the most vulnerable and an easy "mislynch".

He's also on drugs, probably. Either that or he chose to ignore the fact that everyone but me has a town read on him.

[DemonHybrid]

and not only did he go apeshit, but he also did exactly the same thing DGB did. Go for the most vulnerable player (me on both counts) with a vengeance.

"But I'm not going to comment on why he went apeshit (i.e: my vote was utter shit because it is based on absolutely nothing). I'm just going to comment on the fact that he laughed at my vote and call it a day."

[DemonHybrid]

Can someone read my 759 and DH's 762 and either confirm that he's floundering scum talking nonsense or otherwise explain how his reply (particularly the last line) is in any way grounded in reality or the context of what we were talking about? I'm getting pretty bored with arguing with him, and don't understand why he isn't dead yet.

Llamarble, I want answers to the questions I asked in 722 - in particular, why you think Amrun is scum with anyone but DH.

(Freudian slip in 773 when he calls the Sevei wagon not good?)

1. Continue to ignore meanings behind words.
2. Call me scum.
3. ??????????
4. Profit!

You don't "notice" Chris' scummy behavior. You glorify it by saying "Even IF he did this" and "Even IF he did that", completely dodging any implications of guilty behavior.

Oh, here. I have your reply all typed out here, just for your convenience, seeing as how you're a busy guy:

DemonHybrid: Jesus, that post 777 is scummy. Why aren't you dead yet? That couldn't even begin to be more scummy. Obviously, I was right in the first place and you're scum. Why aren't you dead?

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, and Amrun:

WTF?

Olinea BOLDED the god damn DETONATE, twice! Is that not enough proof? What was his answer as to why he did it? A joke? Really? And people are out there defending him? WHY?

He should be hanged already. This reeks of scum. Furcolow is right, how do we know his partner didnt shut down Furcolow votes on any of the scum the night before? Makes it pretty damn convenient for Olinea, doesnt it?

Olinea would have been safe had he just came out and said "I though Chesskid was scummy, so I blew him up". But Olinea cant use that line because he came out of the gate swinging and ready to play mad bomber right away.

I still want to know why Olinea would post a bolded detonate twice. TWICE!

This is pretty much a slam dunk for me, his actions are anti-town regardless of his excuses and blatant lies. DemonHybrid is right, Olinea is a straight up liar.

unvote: Xalxe
FOS:Xalxe

Vote: Olinea

One of IS's FoS's. FoS with an unvote.

Who came up with the first observation of the detonator?
Who are all the people that said the word detonate before Cooldog/Chesskid got blown up?

I dont understand why no one else cares about this.

Also, whats up with Ender? Is he just trying to ride off wagon for a reason?

FOS: Ender

By the way Tajo, I already unvoted Olinea. Although, I still think something fishy is going on. Wasnt Olinea the one that claims to have submitted both the lovers and detonator roles?

Just an FoS.

Oh and I forgot to mention Plum. Looking at her lovering role, what exactly does that role do for the town? I sense more scum uses than town ones. I would have just voted for her, but im thinking she is going to be investigation bait anyways.

FOS: PLUM

Another FoS, as an aftersight.

first I want everyone to answer this few questions:
a) did you read my gambit on Olinea? (the full description of the Gambit can be found in this post.)
b) what do you think on the result?
c) if you think it makes Olinea scummy, why aren't you voting yet?

We should probably be a little more willing to lynch Oli than other players, particularly when LYLO approaches. Same goes for any role that's better for scum than town. Lylo is a very long way off, and one way another Oli may die or have an obvious alignment before then. I'm definitely not saying Oli should be lynched at this stage.

if you state we should be more willing to lynch Oli later, why shouldn't that apply to now?
I actually don't like how you constantly repeat how scummy Oli reacted to my gambit but then always find reasons not to vote him.
Possible buddy here.

FoS: Fishy

Tasky

I disconcur with your Olinea views and stance on massclaim.

how about telling me WHERE my case on Oli is wrong instead of just telling me you don't agree?

Tasky's Question:

Why do you sound like you want people to vote for you?

is this some kind of joke or what?

FoS: Xalxe

(this is actually for the whole post, this, etc.)


@StrangerCoug: shouldn't you be pushing my lynch much harder than you pushed on Tajo's considering it is based on "LynchAllLiars" and considering I pulled a gambit in which I lied? I could see plenty of reasons for ignoring me if you were Oli's scumpartner.

FoS: SC

@Sevei, how likely do you think Olinea is scum (considering the incredibly scummy reactions to my gambit). do you think Xalxe/Oli is a viable scumteam?

@Interned Stranger: Where do you draw the line between not giving scum information and giving town the information they need to make a viable lynch? This is related to reads only.


_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

If Olineas original response wasn't enough to make me convinced he is scum, then those definitely are:

Is not strong reasoning, and

appears to be more of a gambit than anything else.

I tend to assume everyone is telling the truth when they first start out

-- I had no read on Tasky and figured he actually may have had false information on me -- but what would I do in response, say "uh, no you don't"? Asking where he got it is rolefishing and seeing as how people reacted negatively to my early claim I wasn't going to push the envelope; rather, I'd just hope Tasky would realize his PR is fallible.

contradiction.
on the one hand you say how not believable my original statement was (you even seemed to know it was a gambit) and on the other hand you want to make me believe you believed my statement but thought I had some false information.
btw, false PR-information are quite rare, and the worst thing a townie could to against them is do nothing, as they will just hurt the town.

I'm conservative with my vote. I don't vote for somebody because they give an

extremely

vague message saying they have a reason to suspect me. That's practically OMGUS; it reeks of an

"Oh, you found me out? You die now"

kind of deal. PRs are fallible and I don't take them as conclusive evidence of anything, especially not on Day 1. What you were doing basically amounted to "Vote him, he's scum" and I ignore things like that.

scumslip.
you feared to come under suspicion? yes, that's exactly my point. of course the townie standing up against to the false PR-claim comes under suspicion, but there is absolutely not town-reason to want to avoid that suspicion.


_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

d) why aren't you voting Olinea now?

PS: I will only tolerate the following two actions at this point:
i) vote Olinea.
ii) adress the points in my case you believe are wrong.

I will consider everyone who ignores my post a likely scumbuddy of Olinea's

Tasky's FoSes. All in the same post. All in different paragraphs with differentiating reasons.

Whoever is scum chose to be, so:
Why did each of you choose this game / why should I believe you're town?
Who are your teammates?

I picked this game because I like the "pulling tells off mafia lovers" concept and I'm not power-hungry.
I'm town because I like it significantly more than being scum; I'm a scientist and my enjoyment of mafia is the fun of reading people / solving a unique type of puzzle.
I like the 'convincing other people to lynch who you want them to' aspect as well, though I guess that applies to both alignments.

I'm with Conspiracy, SSBF, and Animorph.

FoS

:
Sotty, DGB, & Equinox for having strong scumgames. And Chris B for being possibly an alt to mask a strong scumgame.
Equinox utterly hosed a town I was part of and the other 2 have scummies for proficiency at evil.

Llamarble's FoSes in this game. Not only is this near RVS reasoning with bad reasons for FoSes (and therefore, could be just Llamarble pushing for information), they're all in the same line for 2 reasons (Chris B was a special case. Sotty, DGB and Equinox were all for the same meta reasoning).

[DemonHybrid]

I'm talking with my teammates and they're seeing a Sotty scum read, but I don't quite see the same thing they do.

Can someone condense the case on Sotty? I'm just seeing genuineness from her and I don't understand what people are seeing that's scummy.

[DemonHybrid]

But why are Tasky's FoSes scummy and Llamarble's not?

Tasky's is rather spread out and dealing with many different cases. Llamarble's more like a general RVS FoS for a few different people for the same thing. It just reads off as a townie thing to do.

[DemonHybrid]

One of them told me that I'm a derp for suspecting Chris and that Sotty is scummier. I'm waiting for them to get back to me with their case. Ill check yours out, but I'd like a few peoples' summarizations if they would.

[DemonHybrid]

DH calls me out for "a lack of hounding" of Chris B for his mere 15 posts, coming to the conclusion that "mith's notification of ChrisB's lurky and scummy behavior but unwillingness to explore that really shows a connection between the two."

As in: You really don't give a shit whether or not he scumhunts. It's not about his post count, it's about his lack of concrete scumhunting which you failed to even pretend existed.

DH tries to make something of this absence.

Posting "Lynch this person, slackers" without any followup is active lurking.

a. I think he's town, and haven't had much reason to doubt that read throughout the game.
b. I don't hound people for their post count anyway, so long as they are posting regularly and with content.
c. Chris B hadn't posted from the start of day 2 to his "slip" post because of a stated V/LA, and the day talk stuff has further reinforced my town read.

a. Then you aren't looking close at all.
b. He has barely any content, barely any votes. He fencesits for most of the game and agrees with cases and then backs away.
c. The daytalk IS null because it started on Day 2 and scum have nighttalk. I don't see how anyone can't see the connection there. I'm not saying it's SCUMMY, I'm saying it's NULL.

Apparent annoyance at me responding to the original point of contention (and in doing so, I have "totally cleverly avoided talking about his play")... damned if I don't respond, damned if I do. Then a subtle shift from "Why isn't mith hounding Chris B for the lurky and scummy things he noted?" to "Why else is he town?".

Because you aren't talking about his play. You're just avoiding his play and focusing on superficial stuff that always loses games for town. You, as the site CREATOR, should know better than to just say "oh, he said daytalk and went on V/LA. So he's town". Honestly, it's bewildering that I have to tell the mafiascum.net creator that.

The conclusion here is: There are some things I don't like about Chris B, mainly related to the DGB flip,

And this is what bothers me. You went from "Even if Chris B did this/Chris B did that/Even if this was scummy/Well, whatever, but" to now "I don't like some things about Chris B"? If you don't like some things about Chris B, why is he obvious town to you? You won't even try to push through the Chris B discussion to even make sense of stuff and it points to you two being scumbuddies.

This is the post which begins with "But you have nothing to say on the scummier parts of his play? You know, how his posting fits in more with active lurking? And how he avoided voting DGB?"... all of which I have talked about in the previous post.

And again, you didn't talk about the scummier parts of the play. You just said stuff like "Oh, well, that's not necessarily scummy", "Even if he DID do this", to try to warp my argument into being falsified and protect Chris.

He also invokes Sotty here: "Also, ask Sotty about how his cases lack substance. And his vote on me is just lulz-worthy." This is a really interesting comment, and one that got a bit lost in my utter disbelief at what he tries to do in his next post

I'm not invoking Sotty. I'm bringing up an example. Another scummy way to twist my argument around.

DH 762 - His response to this is "Also, your tone was that of assumed Chris B confirmed town. Get real." Which apparently means I haven't really been talking about Chris B's play all along, or something? Yeah, I'm still confused.

You don't read. At all.

Lynch this joker after I die. Fuck my team's Sotty read. Mith is so obvious that it hurts.

[DemonHybrid]

My team's case on Sotty:

Sotty tries to read the DGB case but just shows up and says it's interesting and votes for pressure. She avoids stating what she agrees with, however. Posts #210, #251, #252.

Sotty avoids contact with Sevei. She has contradictory reads and tries to line up future lynches. See posts #405 (the "Sevei is a distant third" comment), #447, #449 (lays off suspicion of Sevei)

Lastly, Sotty pushes the idea that lynching off the wagon was the best decision, but was backed by an illogical argument. DGB's end-of-the-day scum interactions would leave scum wanting to control the amount of suspicion placed on them. It'd be likely if the end of DGB's wagon had 1 or 2 scum on it. #538, #623 and #625 supports this.

They also say that Amrun is town. Can't discuss much because of the ongoing Team Mafia game, however; it has to do with Klazam and Amrun's role picks.

^ Read into this later when Pick Your Power ends. I don't want to risk a modkill.

[DemonHybrid]

I promised to post the case, but I'm not going to follow it and vote Sotty. mith is misrepresenting me real hard, not even looking past superficial crap like V/LAs and Day 2 "town slips" and continues to chalk it up to "me trying to get a mislynch off of Chris B" instead of reading the case.

My scum picks are mith and Chris B. My team's picks are mith, Sotty and Sevei (I don't agree with the Sevei read in the least, but don't shoot the messenger).

[DemonHybrid]

And Thor, I love you too, you jerk. >_>

[DemonHybrid]

I promised to post the case, but I'm not going to follow it and vote Sotty. mith is misrepresenting me real hard, not even looking past superficial crap like V/LAs and Day 2 "town slips" and continues to chalk it up to "me trying to get a mislynch off of Chris B" instead of reading the case.

My scum picks are mith and Chris B. My team's picks are mith, Sotty and Sevei (I don't agree with the Sevei read in the least, but don't shoot the messenger).

What's your teams case on mith, since it evidently doesn't include me? Meanwhile, what are their points/cases on Sotty and Sevei?

Well, I had JUST covered Sotty.

I'll get their thoughts on Sevei and mith; I think their mith points are the same as mine despite a town read on you.

[DemonHybrid]

@DH - If you're scum, you've owned my face.
If you're town, than I sort of equally hate this tunneling muck of a town too - so we have that to bond over

Sorry, DH bro. Looks like you're going to hang today. No fault of mine.

IF I'm going to die today, give me some time for my teammates to respond so you can take some information into the next day.

Kind of annoying, but the momentum is pretty high at this point.

[DemonHybrid]

I say we take all the time we need. I don't know why people's panties are getting all bunched up.

Your town flip will help my cases so oh well.

Whatever lynches scum.

[DemonHybrid]

My team's case on Sotty:

Sotty tries to read the DGB case but just shows up and says it's interesting and votes for pressure. She avoids stating what she agrees with, however. Posts #210, #251, #252.

Sotty avoids contact with Sevei. She has contradictory reads and tries to line up future lynches. See posts #405 (the "Sevei is a distant third" comment), #447, #449 (lays off suspicion of Sevei)

Lastly, Sotty pushes the idea that lynching off the wagon was the best decision, but was backed by an illogical argument. DGB's end-of-the-day scum interactions would leave scum wanting to control the amount of suspicion placed on them. It'd be likely if the end of DGB's wagon had 1 or 2 scum on it. #538, #623 and #625 supports this.

They also say that Amrun is town. Can't discuss much because of the ongoing Team Mafia game, however; it has to do with Klazam and Amrun's role picks.

^ Read into this later when Pick Your Power ends. I don't want to risk a modkill.

Pretty sure I have defended the first and last points to death. The second point is funny when you actually read this post in context.

"Out of this list the only two I would really like to lynch are DH and Llamafluff. Sevei a distant 3rd."

I'm as about as interested in DH's team thoughts as I was in Ythill's VCA. Maybe I'm just bitter because my team aren't offering up that much help for me, but I'd like to play with people in this game. By all means use stuff your teammates say, but to build cases based on it just seems pretty weak to me.

"Well I didn't believe it but my teammate..."

It's not my case, though. It's theirs, and I'm not using it in any shape or form. I'm relaying it to give everyone more information to work with.

I'm pretty sure I specified that if I followed their case, I'd be voting you by now. Instead, I'm voting for who I think is likelier scum.

[DemonHybrid]

If you don't believe it, isn't it a pointless info dump?

Seriously? o_O

I am L-1 and you don't want me to relay any and all info?

ANY information is good. Don't get your panties in a bunch just because it's against you.

By the way, my team on mith:

mith is the weakest scum read for my team. He gets a FoS for his position on the wagon and the post in which he hopped on: #278. Since they know I'm confirmed town, his tunneling on me and his lack of pushing elsewhere makes him look worse. He'd be stating reads on ALL players if he were town. He hasn't even started to view my actions objectively; it's all been in a negative light, which really shows a lack of motivation to look on both sides of the argument and see whether my views are reasonable or not.

By PoE, they have a lot of town reads, so it got them started in the direction of seeing Sotty/Sevei/mith as scum reads.

They also want to know what everyone thinks of the Sevei/Sotty interactions.

Sevei's case will be done in due time.

[DemonHybrid]

I feel like I'm Whoopi Goldberg in Ghost.

[DemonHybrid]

And I realize now that Chell in my avatar looks like Demi Moore. Ugh. -_-

[DemonHybrid]

If you don't believe it, isn't it a pointless info dump?

Seriously? o_O

I am L-1 and you don't want me to relay any and all info?

ANY information is good. Don't get your panties in a bunch just because it's against you.

I'm pretty sure you're scum, so I think you're stalling. Otherwise, where was all this juicy info days ago?

Uh, they gave me their reads and I didn't ask for a clarification until just recently?

[DemonHybrid]

Seriously Sotty, damned if I do, damned if I don't. I don't get your resistance to extra information.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm also going to ignore mith, for the reason that he's starting to "not like" anyone who even thinks of defending me, as per his last two paragraphs. This is tunneling to it's most extreme.

[DemonHybrid]

Well, if it's either Sevei or me, you know what my choice is going to be. I'd rather lynch mith over Sevei (or even Sotty), because I honestly don't see what everyone sees in her (or my teammates, I'm still waiting on that case). However, it would answer a TON of questions OR win the game for us.

Unvote, Vote: Sevei

. I would rather lynch mith a million times over, though. However, IP is right. I DID have early day suspicions on Sevei for her D1 play, and I don't know if I'm just being tricked by her interactions with DGB.

[DemonHybrid]

HEY, DEMONHYBRID

mith (3) - Amrun, DemonHybrid, LlamaFluff

Sevei (3) - Llamarble, Thor665, DemonHybrid

I would rather lynch mith a million times over, though.

Well, is it going to be mith, or will it HAVE to be Sevei? Some people aren't willing to vote mith, and I'll gladly switch back if some people actually agree on him.

[DemonHybrid]

Some thoughts I'm mulling over right now... I want to see Sevei's replacement. What this game needs is a set of fresh eyes to look upon it because a bunch of the old eyes are tired and don't care to do whatever rereading should be done in light of the new reactions and information of sorts that have come about from today. If Sevei's slot is scum, that will hopefully become apparent because of something I'm about to do. If Sevei's slot is town, we

need

that replacement.

Basically, what I'm asking is, don't hammer Sevei's slot without waiting for a replacement first. Once that happens, we can decide then how to best proceed.

Unvote, Vote: Sevei

L-2

TBM: Can we get a few days extension on the deadline after Sevei's replacement?

[DemonHybrid]

Equinox can't be scum in the least. I'll be fucking damned if she is.

[DemonHybrid]

Fine, if you guys need the information from a lynch, then lynch me. It's better than a forced no lynch by no majority.

[DemonHybrid]

And I haven't posted much because I said my peace. If it's Sevei or me, Sevei gets my vote. If anyone is up for a lynch, my vote is mith or Chris B. I've said that quite a few times and nothing has changed.

My teammates make good points about Sotty. However, a 2nd person also said not to let Amrun off the hook due to Socio's death (he suspects that Socio went down due to the amount of threat Socio posed, which points his reads in the right direction). I don't agree with it, but you guys will need all the info you can get to finish this without a shitload of mislynches in a row.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm not self-hammering, either. Not the town win-conish thing to do, so someone hammer me.

[DemonHybrid]

Good luck, town.

[DemonHybrid]

More information:

NKs say a lot in White Flag, when two out of three scum need to die.

My teammate's point; it's very strong.

[DemonHybrid]

Seriously?

Because I had 2 people tunnel on me, one of which was a strawman point and the other which does no other scumhunting at all? And the other 4, 1 of which is an unexplained reason, 1 just wanted to hammer and 1 being you?

You say a word about me not doing anything to try to hunt scum and expect me never to talk to you again.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, I would have admitted by now that the game is over if I was scum. So don't try to be condescending.

[DemonHybrid]

That bolded point was JUST posted by my teammate, so I'm not hiding information from any of you.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, I would have admitted by now that the game is over if I was scum. So don't try to be condescending.

No you wouldn't have don't even play.

Hmm.

[DemonHybrid]

"I wouldn't have" = knowledge that I'm town

But it's intent is that I lie and would not say that I'm scum when I'm lynched and the game is over.

If Pinnochio said "My nose will now grow", what would happen?

@Thor: I'm not.

[DemonHybrid]

If Pinnochio said "My nose will now grow", what would happen?

You stole that from FWAN.

Philosophical Raptor.

[DemonHybrid]

But yeah, that was a totes weird post there. Explain it if you would. Before TBM learns that I'm dead.

[DemonHybrid]

You.

"I wouldn't have" = knowledge that I'm town

But it's intent is that I lie and would not say that I'm scum when I'm lynched and the game is over.

I just find this kinda weird.

[DemonHybrid]

I was repeating what you said...

...

No, I mean, explain your post:

Also, I would have admitted by now that the game is over if I was scum. So don't try to be condescending.

No you wouldn't have don't even play.

I was just showing you why I thought it was weird.

[DemonHybrid]

Oh I see.

You were trying to say "I

wouldn't have

done this as scum because I would've already said GG" and I'm saying, no, you totally

would have

no matter what alignment.

Gotchya. Alright.

[DemonHybrid]

Wait, am I dumb, are there only two scum in this game?

Also, don't take this as a derp town tell, says me and some of my teammates. Same argument that I put up against Chris B and his scum daytalk noise.

[DemonHybrid]

Dammit. Will someone hammer me or what?

[DemonHybrid]

My head hurts.

I'm coming back after I eat dinner.

[DemonHybrid]

And for the record, if the counter wagon is Sotty, then I'll be fine with that too, in the same way that I was fine with Sevei/singer's lynch. I know I'm confirmed town to me. Lynching someone who is likely town but may have a chance to be scum plays towards my wincon.

And I'm angry that the mith discussion dropped off of the face of the earth. >_<

[DemonHybrid]

At this point, I don't care if the wagon's on me, I'll hammer it. I just want this day phase over and done with.

^Town.

DH, as scum, you would've known that hammering yourself loses the game so none of this

I'm not self-hammering, either. Not the town win-conish thing to do, so someone hammer me.

crap.

And self-hammering as town modkills me. What's your point?

[DemonHybrid]

D2VC17:

Sevei (4): Llamarble, Thor, DH, LlamaFluff
DH (3): mith, Sotty, Chris
Llamafluff (2): Equinox, IP
mith (1): Amrun,
Llamarble (1): Sevei


Not Voting:

With 11 alive it's 6 to lynch.

Deadline with banked time is the 16th, deadline without using any banked time was the 9th.

Sotty unvoted and then RE-voted me. I missed the fact that the unvote was an unvote off of me, and still thought I was at 3 votes for some reason. All I saw was a Sotty and then Equinox vote and then posted my peace.

singer's vote on me is absolutely horrible. The fact that you and Chris questioned my lynch compels me to apologize to you and him for suspecting you so hardcore.

My vote isn't coming off of singer.

[DemonHybrid]

Or, you aren't getting the point of "I'm confirmed town to me, and I'd rather lynch someone who's a town read and be wrong than to be lynched and flip town, like I know I will". That's as good as a town motivation as anything.

I don't trust YOUR motivations. Especially after you voted me for something that really wasn't the point at all; a side conversation that was completely implied. Do you expect me to self-vote as town?

[DemonHybrid]

singer needs to be lynched. Her "Uh, you have to lynch two scum, and there's 3, or...uh what, what's white flag mean" post is so obviously fake. Her pressure has no backing behind it. She's not reading and taking anything from early game play either.

I retract my scum read on mith fully. Chris B is still shaky, but singer's now far ahead.

[DemonHybrid]

You could just tell us what your alignment is, and then we could discuss. Scumhunting doesn't have to stop at the hammer, provided the game still continues.

[DemonHybrid]

IP's team matchup post became so much more valuable.

I'm also going to do some re-analyzing.

[DemonHybrid]

SingerSigner (6): Llamarble, DH, LlamaFluff,

IP

, Equinox, Chris

There HAS to be scum on this wagon. Llama, Equinox or Chris.

Compare that to DGB's wagon:

D1VC11:

DGB (7): Socio, Thor, IP, Equinox, Sotty, mith, Sevei
Thor (2): Llamarble, DGB
Llamarble (1):, ChrisB
Sevei (1): LlamaFluff


Not Voting: DH, Klazam

People off of DGB's wagon: LlamaFluff, Chris, Llamarble, DH, Amrun

People on singer's wagon: LlamaFluff, Llamarble, Chris, DH

And yes, I'm on everything. I'm noting that now. However, my vote was put on Sevei early and left there, as was Llamarbles. Everyone else's was a super quick wagon.

LlamaFluff or Chris. 2nd scum on DGB's wagon. It doesn't matter.

Chris really was a conditional with mith. I felt like both were scum, but after mith had actually stopped tunneling for a second and thought about what was going on, I realized that he is likely being sincere. That lessened my Chris scumread a bit, even though Chris had scummy play of his own. I'm willing to accept that they're newbie mistakes though.

Vote: LlamaFluff

If we're going to accept:

-One scum on DGB's wagon, one off

and

-One, if not both scum on Singer's wagon

then we can accept LlamaFluff's lynch.

[DemonHybrid]

I forgot to put Equinox in there. Equinox was on both wagons.

Checking for interactions between Equinox and LlamaFluff.

[DemonHybrid]

Jesus, Equinox, you did a LOT of pushing on him. A lot of back and forth, but also a lot of pressure. My head hurts.

Everyone: How likely is it that there is one scum on Singer's wagon, one off?

Equinox is very heavily town to me. I'm nominating her for a scummy if she ends up being scum.

Preview edit:


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[DemonHybrid]

Meh, alright. Maybe paranoia is just speaking out to me. I'll buy it.

It's 5 to lynch. Please don't quicklynch him if it comes up to that. We'll be needing some more information before the day ends, whether or not we win or lose. Better safe than sorry.

[DemonHybrid]

People off of DGB's wagon: LlamaFluff, Chris, Llamarble, DH, Amrun

People on singer's wagon: LlamaFluff, Llamarble, Chris, DH

And yes, I'm on everything. I'm noting that now. However, my vote was put on Sevei early and left there,

as was Llamarbles.

Everyone else's was a super quick wagon.

Llamarble was the first vote on the singer (then Sevei) wagon.

[DemonHybrid]

And?

Do you think it's likely that Llamarble's vote on singer was a quick vote to mislynch, in that case?

[DemonHybrid]

Also, ISO Pie with the word "Fluff". Pie might have been a threat kill, assuming Llama scum.

[DemonHybrid]

Well, I did suggest that Socio was a threat kill. Rather, my teammates through me.

That was either missed or still done in spite, since I was moderately suspected yesterday. I think LlamaFluff is the optimal lynch for today, though I'd love to hear other opinions.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, it becomes much more likely when Llamarble has his position on the wagon going for him and Llama's against him, as well as Pie's reads.

[DemonHybrid]

Chris, update us on why you think Sotty is scum.

[DemonHybrid]

Chris,

update

us on why you think Sotty is scum.

That was sort of the key word.

[DemonHybrid]

To summarize my case (or that part of it, anyway): LlamaFluff has been very vocal about DH-town throughout, but as far as actually defending him, not so much (I didn't even realize how little reasoning he had given for his read on DH until ISOing him just now)... yet when he goes to L-2, he's weary of defending him and "he may not be the worst possible lynch". I just don't see any possible town motivation for that post. We weren't near deadline, we weren't in compromise mode... and until a few posts prior, DemonHybrid's wagon was one of four, and only leading by a single vote. Town in that position redouble their efforts to push things away from their town reads - they don't roll over and suggest that it won't be the worst thing in the world.

:goodposting:

Has Llama even said ANYTHING about my vote on him?

[DemonHybrid]

V/LA from now until Monday, June 27th.

[DemonHybrid]

As of this post, Amrun, Chris, mith and Thor cannot be scum with Llamarble if Llamarble is scum.

All four have been consistently townie lately, with the exception of Thor (while he's been townie, it surely hasn't been consistently).

Hm. I'm going to see who's white knighting him. If NOBODY is, I'd suggest a lynch on someone else, because I'd expect a partner to want to try to save the game.

[DemonHybrid]

Sotty, LlamaFluff, and Equinox. Equinox wants to drop the hammer.

LlamaFluff is being weird about this lynch and is pushing mith.

Sotty

: Please update us on what you think about Llamarble.

[DemonHybrid]

Hm. I'm going to see who's white knighting him. If NOBODY is, I'd suggest a lynch on someone else, because I'd expect a partner to want to try to save the game.

Is this not white-knighting in itself?

Hypothetically, if Llamarble is scum and you're also scum, isn't this the perfect way to white-knight him without it looking like you are?

I'm not against his lynch. I just need to look for the people outright defending him.

[DemonHybrid]

You think that Sotty AND mith would have bussed DGB? I'm not shooting it down, I'm just curious.

[DemonHybrid]

^ That was to LlamaFluff, sorry.

[DemonHybrid]

I see the Llama defending of Sotty. If he believed a Sotty/mith scumpair, he wouldn't be fighting this.

Unvote, Vote: Sotty

Let's spin the roulette wheel. At worst, this will give us a lot of answers.

[DemonHybrid]

You think that Sotty AND mith would have bussed DGB? I'm not shooting it down, I'm just curious.

I asked this a bit prematurely. I want to see the flip first, and then see what you have to say.

[DemonHybrid]

Dammit, DemonHybrid!

Bleh, let me get a post together and then try to speeeeed through Day 1 with the passion of a lot of fires.

I see a lot of dissonance with this LlamaFluff and Sotty stuff.

Sotty flips scum? We're gravy. Sotty flips town? We have a lot of time tomorrow. I'm not for a mith lynch and I don't believe Llama's stance on a "likely pairing, but not my top pick". That's a pretty weak statement to stand behind.

[DemonHybrid]

Ready for another wrench in the gears? I think its mith-Equinox.

I'm just waiting for this day to be over.

I have conditionals. I'm not going to relay them, though.

[DemonHybrid]

I mean, it all depends on reactions tomorrow, the rest of today and ultimately the flip (assuming a town flip, otherwise it's cool). But I'll let you guys know if needed.

[DemonHybrid]

I have conditionals. I'm not going to relay them, though.

YOU'RE GOING TO BE HERE TOMORROW TO RELAY THEM, IS THAT IT?

Maybe, maybe not.

I would hope so.

[DemonHybrid]

Equinox, before the flip, thoughts on Amrun?

Amrun, before the flip, thoughts on Equinox?

[DemonHybrid]

This is amazing stuff.

Alright, just in case I die:

Amrun's reaction was terrible.
Equinox's scramble for information reads genuine.
LlamaFluff is town after his reply to my hammer. I'm not sure about Llamarble. There's absolutely nothing from him.
Thor is likely town. Chris is town.
mith is on the edge now.

Preview edit:

Hm.

And yes, Nico's on my team.

[DemonHybrid]

One of these three people should die:

Amrun
Llamarble


If those two don't flip scum, then it's mith and I'm going to smack my head into the desk.

[DemonHybrid]

*One of these two people.

I originally had mith as "mith, but I assume the game would be over at that point".

[DemonHybrid]

There's a ton of connections between Amrun and a lot of players. There's a lack of connection between Amrun and some players, too. There's a dissonance there.

Llamarble was my pick if Fluff was town, and I read him as town now.

[DemonHybrid]

How about this since we still have a shot to go before LyLo.

I'm not moving off Llamarble until there is a Good Reason (i.e., better than what happened today, sheesh) to do so. Heck, maybe Amrun, depends on what I see when I read whenever that ever happens.

Heck, there is no "until."

I WILL NOT MOVE
I WILL ONLY SHAKE

All I'm doing is spamming and not reading.

DemonHybrid, one last question. How coordinated has your team been so far? Were you guys communicating at the start of the games?

Not consistently, but we talk, and definitely at the start of the games.

[DemonHybrid]

Okay. I think I'm still cool with DemonHybrid being town. Can't explain the questions right now (obv), but there was a purpose and said purpose has been met.

For the record, it was Regfan giving me most of the information when I was close to being lynched. Parama had the Amrun scum read.

[DemonHybrid]

Nico and I haven't really been discussing much at all in the QT.

[DemonHybrid]

Last time he said anything about Llama was that a Sotty+Sevei team was lining up a Fluff lynch.

[DemonHybrid]

Is your point that he said he picked town, and suggested that he didn't pick scum?

I think that's a normal RQS from someone like him. Just because he was able to pick town doesn't mean that there's more of a chance for other people on the team to be scum. If we're going back to team meta, I have plenty of games where I fucked up totally as scum and I wouldn't risk picking scum in the Team Mafia games. We got 4 town role PMs; you'll find that Parama, Regfan and Nico all flipped town already.

However, I understand your concern over that statement. Just think of the motivation for someone to out someone through related team mafia game meta; there isn't any.

Related to the game: At first glance, my main scumread is Amrun. Her late-day reactions were so extremely fake-looking, however, I'm going to read up on Thor connections and get back to everyone. That read might change.

[DemonHybrid]

No, DH saying his team got all town PMs is specifically against the rules and he might get modkilled for it when TBM sees it. VPB did it in AGM and got warned and the ruling was made official that it wasn't allowed.

That is an interesting find with Nicodemus, but I can't reconcile that with the townie reaction to his fake hammer.

The games are over, though. I don't see what's modkillable about relaying public information.

[DemonHybrid]

Okay, actually, we've been discussing about Thor665 getting bullseyed, which implicates Llamarble, so take out LlamaFluff. DemonHybrid-Llamarble's on the table.

DemonHybrid, Faraday wants to know who in your team would've taken a White Flag scum role PM.

I'll get an answer to this and get back to you.

[DemonHybrid]

To Amrun: I understand the concern, but I thought the rule is that of speaking of ongoing games; with that logic, Equinox would be killed also.

[DemonHybrid]

DH - when Llamarble was at L-1, you backed away, on the basis that you wanted to see if anyone tried to derail the lynch. Later the same day, Sotty ended up at L-1, and you leaped in like the bloodlust had taken over.

If you stand by your method with Llamarble, why didn't you do the same thing with Sotty?

Can you give me the post number so I know exactly what you're talking about? TBM isn't fantastic with votecounts and I don't feel like searching forever and finding the wrong post.

[DemonHybrid]

To Faraday: Parama would take it.

[DemonHybrid]

DH - when Llamarble was at L-1, you backed away, on the basis that you wanted to see if anyone tried to derail the lynch. Later the same day, Sotty ended up at L-1, and you leaped in like the bloodlust had taken over.

If you stand by your method with Llamarble, why didn't you do the same thing with Sotty?

Can you give me the post number so I know exactly what you're talking about? TBM isn't fantastic with votecounts and I don't feel like searching forever and finding the wrong post.

As of this post, Amrun, Chris, mith and Thor cannot be scum with Llamarble if Llamarble is scum.

All four have been consistently townie lately, with the exception of Thor (while he's been townie, it surely hasn't been consistently).

Hm. I'm going to see who's white knighting him. If NOBODY is, I'd suggest a lynch on someone else, because I'd expect a partner to want to try to save the game.

You think that Sotty AND mith would have bussed DGB? I'm not shooting it down, I'm just curious.

I see the Llama defending of Sotty. If he believed a Sotty/mith scumpair, he wouldn't be fighting this.

Unvote, Vote: Sotty

Let's spin the roulette wheel. At worst, this will give us a lot of answers.

You think that Sotty AND mith would have bussed DGB? I'm not shooting it down, I'm just curious.

Now, I'd forgotten that you Llama defending Sotty, but considering you weren't shooting it down, it doesn't look like he was white knighting her either.

I still find your reasoning on waiting to vote Llamarble to be scummy as hell. By announcing your intention to wait to see who white knighted, you meant that people either wouldn't, or that you were actually white knighting him in quite a smart way. Your question of LlamaFluff followed by an immediate vote, I find as scummy as hell. Why not wait for him to answer? To me, it comes across that you realised you had justification for your lynch and went for it instead.

I think Fluff is town. If he's scum, he had no reason to try and derail a Sotty lynch in favour of a mith lynch. Equinox has raised warning bells to me throughout the game, however I think the scum team is Llarmarble and DH.

Vote DemonHybrid

You actually make a fantastic point about LlamaFluff.

What are your thoughts on Amrun? I'm just curious.

And for the record, Llamarble had a lot more weird interactions with people than Sotty did. Sotty was very clear cut on who she believed was scum and town; Llamarble was a prime target for white knighting if he is indeed town. I didn't like Llama's sudden defending of Sotty; I re-read, and decided to go for the hammer to get information from everyone else, which I got from Amrun, Llama and Equinox in spades. I didn't need the answer to that question.

Like I said, my 100% bet is that it's Amrun. Not sure at all who her partner would be; but at least take a look at the hammer, why I did it and what the reactions were to it.

I forgot to do this, too:

Vote: Amrun

[DemonHybrid]

Possibly. I still prefer Llamarble.

If Llamarble isn't scum I'm going to go sit in a fucking corner.

P-edit: yes, llamarble.

It wouldn't be llamarble as a partner. LlamaFluff had no reason to derail the sotty wagon, like you said, if he was scum.

Leaves Equinox, you and mith. I mean, it's not that important who her partner is. But Amrun is a good lynch and I stand by that hammer as means of reaction gaining.

[DemonHybrid]

Me and MITH? Lol.

Seriously?

That's the worst reply I've ever heard.

[DemonHybrid]

Well that is the reply that theory is worth, tbqh. I was trying to sell my soul to get mith lynched on day 2

But he wasn't even close, was he?

That's beside the point; did I not clearly say that your buddy, assuming you're scum, doesn't matter?

[DemonHybrid]

I'm not - and in this game, buddies and possible pairings do matter.

Yeah, with the FLIPPED scum. Not WIFOM-ey future pairings, especially when you only need one more mafioso dead.

[DemonHybrid]

Is there any evidence against an Amrun+Llamarble pairing? I've been looking through and I haven't found anything damning against it.

[DemonHybrid]

Equinox: For most of day 2, mith sat around 3 votes. I tried hard to make it higher than that, even trying to trade votes with you, if you'll recall.

At this point, I feel like I can make town and scum cases for EVERYONE, literally everyone.

So I'm going to go with gut and fuck all the rest.

VOTE: LlamaFluff

Gut? At this point in the game?

You are the most interesting scum in the world.

You don't always mislynch townies.

But when you do...

...you call it gut.

Llama is town and this wagon is awful.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm a bit lost. Have we played a game together where you were scum? I can't remember.

Also, yeah. Keep pushing your "gut" case. Its working perfectly, mmyes. Or, you know, you could just hang.

For the record, no one should be voting at this point without evidence. It can be PART gut, but 56 pages in, you should have something relevant to the conversation.

[DemonHybrid]

New Designers, remember?

Oh. Right.