Time Travel Mafia (Game Over)

[imaginality]

Just a quick "hi all". I'm just about to go to sleep right now, but I've already finished reading through the game so far, so I'll hit the ground running in the morning.

[imaginality]

I'll put up a list in my next post. For now, my concise(ish) initial impressions on you lot:

Amrun

's initial attack on Kcdaspot was a touch wifomy (with the "no doctor would") but absolutely fine, especially at that early stage. However, she seems to be fairly sensitive to how others see her (e.g. 199) and things like the 'I suck as town' in 233 are (as Red Coyote picked up) pretty concerning. The "why rank both Kcdaspot and me high" thing I don't really take as a strong sign they're both scum, since if she's scum and Kcdaspot is town, she'd still have motivation to make that argument, hoping to get people to nominate Kcdaspot alone rather than her and Kcdaspot. If she's town, on the other hand, then that means she has to genuinely not realise it's a poor argument (since, as others have mentioned, losing 1 town for 1 scum is a decent trade). I'm not convinced she was really unaware of the flaw in that argument. And I'm confused by her meta point in 284. If you know Kcdaspot is weak as scum wouldn't that give you more reason to bus him D1 rather than less? Finally the talk of not wanting to sacrifice herself now she's less sure of Kcdaspot being scum seems a bit too self-conscious, in the, "Well, speaking as a townie, because I'm a townie I don't want to be lynched pointlessly, because as I said, I'm a townie," kind of vein.

Chronopie

made a good setup point but in a game where everyone has played theme games before, it can be expected that people are going to be looking out for the best tactics etc, so it's only a mild pro-town tell. I agree that the posts since then have given reason to worry. Can't ride by much longer on having made one good gameplay suggestion. Preview Edit: Oh my. His latest post is a stinker.

To me,

Doombunny9

reads as being genuine, for example in explaining his reasons for trying to initiate a random question stage. I get the sense that he's actively scumhunting. Makes good points in discussions with Amrun and his comments about GreyICE. Enough here for me to feel comfortable he's town.

I like the way

Exe

has been interested in scumhunting and getting the game going. Posts like 142 read very genuinely, and 232 also gave me a good feel.

GhostWriter

made some good early-game points about the Kdcaspot-Amrun spat, and smargaret's lack of questions. I disagree with his read on Doombuddy9, but I like post 309.

GreyICE

seems somewhat enigmatic to me. He overstated the case on RangeroftheNorth but applied good pressure on him and Amrun. The degree to which he's invested in Amrun and Kdcaspot not both being scum is a bit strange, however. Instinctively I feel wary of his motives. Probably ought to meta him to get a better read. Preview edit: Yeah. If GreyICE is scum then at least one of Amrun and Kcdaspot is scum too.

Kcdaspot

has done a couple of scummy things, like his omgussy vote on GhostWriter, and the timing of his coming onto the Chronopie case felt like maybe just hoping to deflect attention away from him and Amrun. Posts like 110 are pretty lame too, and 149 certainly praises Amrun's post more than it deserves.

MrTrow

I've found fairly unimpressive. Giving town points to Chronopie and Red Coyote but not Kcdaspot for strategy discussion seems inconsistent, and his cases, like the suggestion that GreyICE was fishing, seem unconvincing.

RangeroftheNorth

's joke post, in the context of him already having made five posts that day, seems fine to me. Caveat: assuming his claim to have forgotten about the game for the next few days was genuine. I do feel that he is - post 229 also reads honestly to me. At this stage I'd bet that he's town and that some of those with him high on their list of suspects are scum: he seems like a convenient target.

Red Coyote

has made some good comments game structure and strategy-wise (null tell though); more importantly he's come across as very actively scumhunting, but also willing to listen to counter-arguments (e.g. when he backed down from his attack on Kcdaspot). Giving a townread on Doombunny9 also read well to me since I can imagine scum would have been tempted to join that wagon. I disagree with his stance about the 'easy targets' though: at the very least, "look twice at your list of suspects if there's no-one smarter than you on it" is good advice, and if someone is expressing suspicion only of the easiest targets (least capable of defending themselves strongly), it's reasonable to at least keep an eye on that person to make sure they really are trying to actually scumhunt. In the way GreyICE put it, it's not about 'scummy meta'. Overall though, I feel pretty good about Red Coyote.

smargaret

was someone who seemed worse to me on my initial read-through than when I isoed her. She's been consistent about suspecting Amrun - Kcdaspot of being an attempt at distancing. On the other hand, that's been pretty much her sole focus (aside from one post about me and Doombunny9. I think her focus is genuine but she should be careful to keep looking more widely.

Tragedy

has contributed little. I am often unclear why she comments on what she does. Though I do get why she gave a list in 289 of who she thought are the easy targets. Including herself on that list is accurate, but perhaps also a bit self-serving - trying to hint "if people rank me highly, it's just because I'm an easy target". (Pretty speculative sidenote: I'm wondering whether the "Since when did scums get Time Machines?" in 196 is a bit of a scumtell?)

[imaginality]

Forgot to add: I agree with Red Coyote that the "Why me?" tone from Kcdaspot is a definite warning flag.

My list:

Scummier

Chronopie
Amrun
Kcdaspot
Tragedy
MrTrow
GreyICE
smargaret
Exe
RangeroftheNorth
Red Coyote
Doombunny9
GhostWriter

Townier

[imaginality]

^ I never knew scum actually had time machines until someone had mentioned the plan.

How do you know they do now?

[imaginality]

Someone did mention that, Tragedy, but it doesn't answer my point. Here's how my thought process went:

1. "Since when did scum get time machines?"

This seemed a bit of an odd comment from you. To me it read like the thought behind it might be, "I'm scum. How do you know we have time machines?" or "I'm scum - but we only have one time machine." It reminds me of how SKs are more likely to comment on someone's comment about SKs. I freely admit this is a very speculative idea on my part, really nothing more than a hunch. But your reply to me just now hints more strongly at you having hidden knowledge:

2. "I never knew scum actually had time machines until someone had mentioned the plan."

Townies

still don't

know

scum have time machines. To a townie, Chronopie's comment ("After having thought about it, By rule 1.2.1, We need to include any dead mafiates at the top of every lynching list. It would be incredibly not funny to have a single surviving mafiate go back several days and take out the vig and/or doc, while reviving teammates.") doesn't tell them that the scum have time machines. A townie might guess, suspect, or expect the scum do; it certainly seems pretty likely to me. But your comment suggests you

know

they do

, which suggests you have extra knowledge about scum, i.e. you are scum.

Alternative phrases which wouldn't sound suspicious:

"I never thought scum had time machines until..."
"I didn't consider scum might have time machines until..."
"I only realised scum could have time machines when..."

[imaginality]

if someone is expressing suspicion only of the easiest targets (least capable of defending themselves strongly), it's reasonable to at least keep an eye on that person to make sure they really are trying to actually scumhunt.

I mean, I get the logic behind the point, but

I'm not going to sit here and let Grey say that Amrun and Kcda are too easy of targets so they're town.

No, sir. That's not going to fly. If he wants to stick his neck out for these two, then he needs to man up and say it. This political mumbo jumbo about how Kcda is too easy of a lynch to be scum is just misdirection otherwise as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think he has said that.

I've said it before, I'll say it again Smarg. Whenever all your scumreads are newer/less experienced/less skilled players, ask yourself if it's really that easy.

The answer is usually no.

I would not be overly surprised if Amrun v. kcda was TvT. If you want my opinion, and I've been holding it back to see the responses, kcdaspot is fairly obvtown and I'll be treating suspicion without reason on him as fairly scummy from here on out. Amrun... is worse. Much worse. That being said, deep under Chrono and RotN.

I think you're linking Grey's first comment "I've said it before... usually no," to his second and taking him to be defending Amrun and Kcdaspot as being easy targets. I can see why you see it that way, but I saw it more as a comment about smargaret: "smargaret, all your top targets are easy (less skilled/experienced) ones. That's unlikely to be right. So you're not trying to scumhunt hard enough." i.e. not "Amrun and Kcdaspot shouldn't be lynched cos they're easy targets" but "all your targets are easy targets, so take a second look at the other players because there's probably at least one scum who's slipping by you." i.e. the 'easy targets' thing was a comment on smargaret's scumminess-or-laziness rather than Amrun+Kcdaspot's towniness.

@GreyICE: what are your current thoughts about smargaret? scum? lazy town? ..?

[imaginality]

On Chronopie:

iso#0 does make a good pro-town point about the setup. But it's only a comment on the setup. No random vote or other remark to help get things going. To that extent it's a fence-sitting opening post, and could very easily be scum waiting to see what others think before deciding what opinions to go with himself. It's not what this post does say, it's what it doesn't.

iso#1 is all the things GreyICE said about it in 226. It's scummy in the way it tries to pass itself off as a contribution but says next to nothing, aside from giving a suspects list with no associated reasons. It's just posting in the hope it'll keep others off his back and buy him more time to lurk in the background.

iso#2 is scummy in the way it fails spectacularly at explaining iso#1. It still doesn't acknowledge that there was no GreyICE vs Kcdaspot spat (as far as I can see, GreyICE's only comment on Kcdaspot before Chronopie's iso#1 was to call him town, and I don't think Kcdaspot had even mentioned GreyICE). Also, even if Kcdaspot vs Amrun had 'been resolved' as claimed (which is arguable), it doesn't mean there's no point commenting on it.

Especially

given that he didn't comment on anything else of value in iso1. Even saying (in iso#1) "Kcdaspot vs Amrun seems town vs town too" would have been useful.

And this:

I was getting a bad feeling about those four. to the point where I wouldn't mind seeing any of those four hang. It's one of those things that's annoying to put into words.

Yes, being pro-town can be annoying. It takes effort, having to make cases and think and discuss and work together to scumhunt. It's also necessary. /rant To me feels like lazy scum tossing forward the easiest explanation that comes to mind of 'oh yeah those reads were all just gut, don't ask me to explain them'.

This quote also blends past and present ('was getting' 'wouldn't mind') in a way which makes it clear he's

still

not given any more thought to the game and to his suspects since iso#1. It's still giving us nothing new, and it's still trying to pass off the nothing as though it's something.

Finally though less relevantly, iso#3 doesn't make sense since there are other ways to balance a game aside from time machines. I also fully expect scum to have at least one time machine, but I wouldn't assume 2 scum definitely have to have 2 machines, or that 3 scum have 2 rather than 1 (or 3, but 3 scum all with time machines really would need a high-powered town so I see 1 or 2 as more likely). This isn't scummy though, just not good reasoning. What's scummy about iso#3 is him taking the time to comment on that point, and not on anything else, like in iso#1. And in this case, it has an extra splash of seeming defensive (commenting only to respond to the points others are making about him, not looking any further than that).

Overall, it's not just that his posts have been lazy, it's that the flavour of laziness comes across to me more as lazy scum than lazy town. And for a D1 lynch, as things stand I'd rather lynch Chronopie than Amrun or Kcdaspot, because they seem both more likely to be useful if town and also easier for us to get clearer reads on if given more time. That's why he tops my list.

[imaginality]

1. Yes. I'm not arguing the point is not pro-town. I'm saying that

solely

discussing the setup is not as pro-town as discussing the setup

and also

starting to scumhunt/create conditions for scumhunting.
2. Random accusation, then, if you prefer. (Though some people did still random-pseudo-vote.) Basically doing stuff to start discussion going.
3. Because it avoids the need to scumhunt by allowing him to wait until others have started forming their own opinions and he can decide which cases to hop on to, rather than having to make waves early and risk becoming the focus of discussion.
4. Examples of stuff people said either before or shortly after Chronopie's iso#1 (post 41), to show the sort of game-related comments Chronopie could have made, or commented on, but didn't:
Amrun 19: Well no real doctor would do that, but I still view it as rolefishing. Time for real vote
GhostWriter 29: None of that 'hehehe I never read rules' bullshit, because you all knew this would have special mechanics, and not knowing them is extremely anti-town at best.
Kcdaspot 32: VOTE: lynch ...those who do not do this within 3 of their own posts will hang.
GreyICE 33: If we do, my #1 will be KCDAspot, and my #2 down will be everyone voting lynch after this post.
RangeroftheNorth 35: I'm fairly suspicious of Amrun and KCD who apparently read the rules, but are still ok with going to the nomination phase this early in the game.
Exe 38: Stop trying so hard. You're not being pro-town, you're pointing out the obvious.
smargaret 47: I'm suspicious of the interaction between Amrun and kcd after the doctor claim - it was pretty clear that it was a joke, but I can see Amrun's suspicion as scum distancing.
5. It's not.

[imaginality]

Kcdaspot, do you feel "[Amrun is] still town, but now slightly less town" and "I dont know about amrun anymore..." are two equivalent ways of expressing the same opinion? Because they read quite differently to me.

[imaginality]

I suppose it's been over Easter so it's not entirely fair to call people out for absence but MrTrow and RangeroftheNorth both need to chime in sometime soon. I want to see a current suspects list from both of them and from Tragedy, too.

Amrun's also been absent for a while. (In her case, I half-wonder whether the focus being on her vs Kcdaspot is tempting her to be quiet and hope Kcdaspot looks bad enough that he gets nominated rather than her, or at least lynched rather than her.) I was going to say Kcdaspot has gone above Amrun in my list of suspects, but then I noticed she hasn't been around.

Chronopie is still my preferred lynch at this point.

The recent Doombunny9 vs GreyICE discussion reads town vs town to me. Exe is still obvtown.

[imaginality]

My top three currently:

1. Chronopie
2. Kcdaspot
3. Tragedy

Posts like 425 and 427 make me feel Tragedy's unlikely to be buddied with Kcdaspot.
I'm no longer interested in nominating Amrun.

@imaginary:
what`s inconsistent about:

- We have to be carefull with our votes, due to timetraveling scum, these situations (al be it incorrect due to not having completely understood the rules yet) should be avoided.
- If we list all dead(confirmed) mafia on top of every list, we are somewhat protected against mafia-revival tricks.
- Those nominated only have 1 post, this shouldn`t be wasted
calling one of these 3 (in this order, shortly after each other), more likely to be joining in for town-credit?

I think making sensible setup-related comments is only a towntell if the player thinks the rest of the town is too dumb to figure it out themselves so I don't see that there's much town-credit to be gained by joining in. And joining in makes sense at that early stage; good to get any important setup discussion done sooner rather than later.
Also, Kcdaspot's point was in some ways more relevant than Chronopie's since Chronopie's only comes into play once we get a scum flip, whereas Kcdaspot suggesting we agree about how the nominees should vote is relevant to today. It didn't feel like he was scouring all corners of the rules for something to talk about.

It feels to me like you would have said this about whoever posted their point after the others. I've seen other reasons to suspect Kcdaspot, but that post isn't one of them.

Look, I don't want to be this big Chrono defender here, but he deserves a chance to defend himself. As of right now, a Chrono lynch is off the table as far as I'm concerned.

The structure of this game means even if we nominate him, he will have one extra chance to defend himself. And I'm feeling more confident about some of my town reads in this game, so even though he's said less than some people I still get scummier vibes from him than from others.

[imaginality]

@Mod: Please prod Chronopie and RangeroftheNorth

[imaginality]

Confirmed. Have yet to give the thread a detailed once over, but I did skim through making sure to read RangeroftheNorth's posts as well as any particular ones that stood out. I'll say this much, he sure did a good job at shooting himself in the foot. From what I can tell he seems to be in most people's top 3 suspect list (I define most as more than 50%). I can only hope the town judges me by my own performance and doesn't scrutinize me for my predecessor's.

I'm not convinced that any criticism of the player one replaces is a scumtell, if it's specific to certain points, but this very general, complete acceptance of criticism does seem enough to call him out for it. And the last line of 'don't judge me by my predecessor' is scummy in itself.

In post 444 Zinger2099 seems awfully close to saying, "You got me guv, it's a fair cop," in tone if not in words.


Kcdaspot, a different angle on your opening post: if your opening nameclaim was simply a random theme-related joke as you claim, why did you say "Discuss."? What's to discuss about a joke? I can get you posting the joke to make people chuckle - I did - but the 'discuss' does look fishing-y as compared to, say, "Nameclaim: The Doctor. "

Doombunny's 483 I like. Maxous's opening post 475 was better than Chronopie's posts, at least, but that's faint praise though, and a lot of it was just restating points already made.

[imaginality]

When I bring forward my case I want it to be in such a way that makes it clear of my motivations, and I don't believe I will be able to do that until I am an inch from lynchdom.

So why say you're "Probably not going to say much else now until my last trial, so that I can astound you all with my case of why you must keep me." If you're not going to defend yourself till the final hour, why not use the meantime to comment on other people, do some scumhunting?

@Maxous: rolefishing, because of the 'Discuss.' without that, I could more easily buy it's just a joke.

Maxous has turned my opinion of his slot around with his posts this page.

I now have Kcdaspot and Zinger2099 in my top two. Need to do a fuller read if I were to list the exact order of the others, but it's:

scummier
{Tragedy, Amrun, smargaret}
{RC, MrTrow, Maxous}
{Doombunny9, GhostWriter, GreyICE, Exe}
townier

[imaginality]

I was wondering that, too. Though since VTs are apparently 'Casual Bystanders' it's possible for other roles to be oddly named too.

I'm also wondering why he says the mafia would need to take out at least five town members to take him out for good. That's not clear to me. If that's an NK-immunity that seems like an overpowered role?

Thing is, since he claims to have a vig shot, the role should be somewhat confirmable if we want to test it, even with the time travel mechanic.

I'm in the "Pretty likely scum have VT role PM" camp. Not seeing that as enough to keep Zinger2099 from getting my vote over Kcdaspot.

Zinger2099, in your post I want to hear what you think of Kcdaspot's claim, do you think he's telling the truth or not?

[imaginality]

EBWOP: There seems no harm in asking, even if the answer's highly likely to be 'no comment':

@Mod: Are you able to confirm that scum were provided with the Casual Bystander role PM?

[imaginality]

Basically, if we're wrong and they're both town, Zinger is the better kill. If KCD is scum, we'll catch him tomorrow when he fails to confirm his results. If Zinger is scum, well, the advantage to that should be obvious.

QFT.

[imaginality]

You have to PM the mod an ordered list again, Amrun.

[imaginality]

i believe Doombunny9's non-specific PR claim, because he as good as claimed town PR yesterday, when he said he assumed everyone had a time machine.

The quote came from me and at the time, I was under the impression that everyone had a time machine of some strength.

Seeing him make that assumption, which gave away the fact that he had a time machine, was the main reason why I put him low on my list. (He could be scum, but only if each scum player has their own time machine, rather than say, just two of them, or a shared one between them. I tend to think that three time machines for scum would be overpowered.)

[imaginality]

Sorry - I will either be fully caught up and posting regularly again within 24 hours, or I will replace out if I can't pull my weight. I haven't lost interest in this game, it's just been an emotionally gruelling weekend.

[imaginality]

Caught up, not yet written up - that's coming, but not 'til tomorrow.

I'm not scared off by no-reveal, if that's what we have. Admittedly, I haven't played no-reveal before so that might be foolish optimism on my part.

On this page 801 is good, 812 is good, and 819 looks a lot like fishing for PRs.

[imaginality]

Ok. This post is in three parts. First, answers to questions/comments addressed to me (let me know if I missed any). Then some thoughts and questions from my read of today (since page 28). Then my current list of suspects.

Answers to questions

I understand why you assume he has a PR.
Not so sure on why you assume that it is a town PR.
Maybe he was checking the town for example? Looking for a reaction.

It seems unnecessarily bold play for doombunny9, if scum, to risk having to openly claim a town PR, on D1, just to fish for reaction. He didn't know if any of us would call him to explain that comment. He could fish for reactions about time machines in ways other than by implying he has one.

@Imag: why point out the PR-Doombunny thing?

He'd been openly called out as a non-vanilla role by that point, thanks to his 'Town X' remark. I pointed out that his non-vanilla-ness was consistent with what he said earlier, rather than out of the blue. I also thought it would be useful to give my reasoning for why I read it as pointing to him being town rather than scum.

Also you are rating scum`s power by the amount of timemachines they have (i asked chrono, now i`m asking you: how does having multiple timemachines make the team so much stronger?)

If using time machines is a bit like being a hider, then more time machines would give scum more chance of avoiding vig shots (and maybe other roles e.g. tracker, depending how those interact with the mechanic). And say the scum team have one PR, having multiple time machines probably means they could choose which nights to apply the PR to and their NK to, instead of having to do one or the other on the present night (or at best, have the player with the PR also apply the NK to the same night he applies the PR to).

- if he`s scum and scum has a shared timemachine, his 'assumption that everyone has a timemachine' would be a lie -> so he`s likely town (no he`s town or lying scum)

His comment seemed undeliberate to me. If it was a lie, it was a subtle one. It seemed and seems more likely to me it was a genuine slip.

And yes, in response to the speculation about the 'just two' in my comment, I was assuming three scum. I haven't played in or seen a 12- or 13-player game with just two scum and no other factions (which the mod's guaranteed is the case). Even if we take two scum as a possibility, though, I think it's still a towntell. Because I think if there were two scum, they wouldn't be likely to assume that everyone else has time machines (since two scum would presumably have to be pretty heavily buffed to balance the game), compared to if three scum all have time machines. So I don't see the 'everyone has a time machine' assumption as likely to come from a member of a two-man scumteam, which in itself is unlikely to be the setup.

Thoughts and questions

Amrun confirming Kcdaspot's time machine claim is interesting. Interesting because the type of PR it implies is one that, to me, in this kind of game, makes at least as much sense for scum to have than town. The way she announced it seems like more likely scum trying to get town points - I think town would try to keep the specific nature of their power under wraps for longer. I don't see what town purpose it served, at that point, to confirm Kcdaspot's time machine.

In 747 Tragedy makes some good points about Amrun.

--

I didn't like when GhostWriter claimed a gut scum read on me and said I 'might' go up his list. It seemed like he was trying to make sure he wouldn't get in trouble for changing his suspects. The way he did so pre-emptively seems overly cautious. And also allows him to fence-sit on me for a while before his iso read either backs up his gut or contradicts it.

Speaking of which, what did you conclude, GhostWriter?

--
Kcdaspot, in 769 you said Tragedy is playing 'uncharacteristically bad'. Can you expand on this or link to completed games? How much weight do you place on that meta read? You only had Tragedy in 7th place in your scumlist in 741...

--

Red Coyote, I'm not clear why you have GreyICE 2nd in your list of suspects. What's your case on him?

On GreyICE, I personally see the 'Replace out' moment as a strongish towntell, given that it was over 5 hours before he redacted it. I don't see scum as being annoyed by the no-revealness of this game to that extent, but it seems an unlikely gambit given the mod could've come along at any point during that and accepted the replacement request.

--

819 from Kcdaspot is particularly odd because of how Amrun and Doombunny9 have both already softclaimed townPR, yet he doesn't comment on them. I don't really see scum motive in this though, and don't see value in discussing his remark further.

But I do want to ask Kcdaspot what his reads are on Amrun and C-Worl.

--

@MrTrow, is your sole reason for ranking me top of your scumlist the perceived 'just two' slip?

My list

1. Amrun
2. Tragedy
3. GhostWriter
4. Exe
5. smargaret

Strongly disagree with nominating/lynching: MrTrow, GreyICE, Red Coyote, Kcdaspot

[imaginality]

I didn't like when GhostWriter claimed a gut scum read on me and said I 'might' go up his list. It seemed like he was trying to make sure he wouldn't get in trouble for changing his suspects. The way he did so pre-emptively seems overly cautious. And also allows him to fence-sit on me for a while before his iso read either backs up his gut or contradicts it.

Speaking of which, what did you conclude, GhostWriter?

That you react like a survivalist.

Before I said that, I was ranked on the bottom of your list, amongst those you considered "townier" (yay, now you get to say "but I didn't call you town", except you don't, because you got as close as you'll get, so it's the same thing next to mod/investigation confirmation). However, when I mention a gut read of scum on you, you jump to the defense before I ever post an actual read, and slid me right on up to your top 3 scumreads. For the record, I didn't actually iso you. You know, that whole "never posted my findings" thing kinda gave that away. Now, had you actually shown up on my list, out of the blue, with continued lack of backing to it, then you could go ahead and get riled enough to move me to spot 3, and have it make some sense. But getting scared from just the threat of intent? Oh, can't forget when you called me overly-cautious. Cautious of what? I'm seen as the most town player in the game, several lists have proven it. And I certainly didn't get that from being cautious. If I had, you'd have said so earlier when I was still town to you, before I stated the gut scum read. Maybe that's why you're getting worked up: think I might have some kind of leeway with the path of players votes? Congrats, you handled pressure like a pro.

Learn to read, GhostWriter. I called you cautious specifically about how you used your gut read on me to pre-emptively justify maybe moving me up in your list. Not in reference to your gameplay previously.

I didn't and don't think you're third scummiest, though. If I'd ranked you genuinely in that list, you would've been in the middle, somewhere around 6 or 7. But I was keen to see how you reacted to me placing you higher than that - a midrange rank wouldn't have prompted much reaction. And I like it - the way you are considering whether there's scum intent in my change of read, rather than just challenging the specific points, feels genuine to me. So now you're right back down in the "Don't lynch these people" group for me.

[imaginality]

@Imaginality: I see Tragedy and Amrun are the top 2 of your list..would you beleive them to be mafia together in this game or a 'one of these 2'?

I just read their isos to see where they comment on each other. The short answer is yes, I can definitely see them as mafia together.

--
Amrun's iso40 and iso74 for example seem like they could be scum talking to scum. I've noticed that way scum ask each other questions ingame in a more neutral way than they do with townies. iso106 is also kind of neutral.

And overall, Amrun avoids commenting on Tragedy, only like, 5 posts out of over 100 mentioning him at all, and no clear read of him given.

Tragedy comments more on Amrun, but it would be weird not to given the Amrun-Kcdaspot spat and her still being the centre of attention today. Check out posts like iso42 where he avoids giving a firm opinion about her. Their interactions on page 10 fit fine with a scum-scum read too, especially with Tragedy ending up concluding "All of the sudden with "Pleasing both Crowds" is quite true but I still don't know what's exactly scum of Amrun."

--
Overall - yes, I can see them being scum together. Amrun's mostly avoided commenting on Tragedy, not attacking him and giving no strong opinion on him ever. Her comments and questions to him are very neutral in tone. Tragedy's commented more about Amrun, of necessity, but still been reluctant to give a clear read of her. And there's a sense in which I feel some of his comments are attempts to weakly defend her/weaken the case against her.

[imaginality]

Exe rose in my list mainly due to his posting and scumhunting dropping off today (not hypocritical, since I fully accept if I've risen in anyone's list for the same reason).

Mr Trow is a townread for me because the way he's thinking through stuff in his posts reads more like town genuinely trying to figure stuff out than scum secretly already knowing.

Maxous, can you explain what you mean by this post:

Oh and Tragedy's claim should'nt of come as a surprise by the way.
I would imagine the mafia figured it out before night 1...

because that last line makes it sound to me like you are sure Tragedy is town.

[imaginality]

Everything about the way Amrun has handled her PR so far, and the probable nature of it, makes me think scum PR.

[imaginality]

@GhostWriter, to reply to your earlier point: There's still no contradiction between calling you over-cautious for one particular post and not viewing the rest of your posts as over-cautious. You also didn't deny your post let you fence-sit: do you agree or disagree that you saying this:

Truth be told, I've got an insane gut feeling Imaginality is scum. Since all gut feelings are based on something registered by the subconscious, I'm gonna try going over his posts to figure out why I feel like this. Just letting you all know this A) to, admittingly, prod-dodge while I take time to do this and B) so no one is surprised if he jumps up my list.

gave you the opportunity to rest some reasonless suspicion on me while allowing you to either try to justify it, or to back down from it?

As for the over-caution here, let me put it this way: if you hadn't made this post, and had then made a post containing a case against me and putting me high on your scumlist, I don't think any reasonable person would be worried by that shift, assuming your case had merit. So to seek to get permission in advance from town is over-cautious and seems like you were testing the water to see whether targeting me would stir too many ripples.

My sense that that post of yours read scummily is further strengthened by the fact you didn't actually bother to read me in iso (your claimed reason for the post): your current push to get me lynched is based solely on my response to that post of yours.

Looking back at your D1 posts, I see a similarish instance of stalling in #217 in response to smargaret's suggestion in #216. I don't see why you didn't list your suspects anyhow, even if you said, "3rd and 4th might switch." Not listing them allowed you to see a lot of other players' lists before giving yours.

Also, with regard to you voting Kcdaspot over Zinger2099, you seem to contradict yourself:

iso52: "Didn't get a revised list in before it ended. On my original list, Kcda was higher up than Zinger."
iso53: "I sent in 3 lists throughout that time. Each time, the order that I placed Kcda and Zinger changed whilst trying to make up my mind. The last one sent in had Kcda higher than Zinger"

Was the list that got used the original list, or the 3rd list?

As for D1-towniness: meh, looking back at your play D1 I see a number of questions asked and points made but no consistent pressure applied to anyone in particular. Your only case was on Doombunny9 and that was pretty much just one post and one follow-up remark. I think the apparent-towniness I and others credited you with has been overstated.

[imaginality]

And I said I left hints for RC, or anybody, but I knew RC would catch them bc we have played together before.

You say this is your first PR though? Do you just mean you knew RC is a smart player? You said at the start you've also played with "a bunch of people, including Tragedy, GreyICE, Exe, RC and don't remember who else from the playerlist." So I don't get what's specific to RC.

This was my first PR on MS and I tried to be just a little scummy on D1 to avoid the nk.

How, specifically? What did you deliberately do to be scummy?

I think you have a scum PR because you:

(a) started hinting about it to deter people from putting you up for nomination. On balance I think town PRs would at least be more likely to twice about hinting before they absolutely have to, since if scum spot the hint, they become a night-kill target. This is a small difference though, let's say 52-48 towards scum PR rather than town PR
(b) confirming Kcdaspot's time machine claim today immediately - town PRs in that situation have good reason to wait and see if Kcdaspot can defend himself (not that having a time machine = town anyhow, so that makes me doubly unclear why you'd confirm it if it doesn't prove his role). Waiting means you get more information from the day (seeing who believes/disbelieves Kcdaspot before oyu confirm what he said) and keeps you more under the radar, also leaving scum in the dark for longer about the nature of your power. Again, would a town PR be so quick to act like this?
(c) placing a fair amount of confidence in your breadcrumb's significance, which is not scummy in itself (town PRs might also leave a good clear breadcrumb) but has a kind of 'conscious confidence' feel to it to me. What I mean is, it reads like you are a scum PR who likes the fact she's been able to leave a genuine PR breadcrumb and doesn't have to lie about her role, just her alignment.
(d) talking as if PR = townPR e.g. "However, I do have a higher than average lookout for survival due to PR", rather than recognising that proving your PR doesn't prove your alignment.

To be clear, if the choice is just between town PR and scum goon, I'd call you town PR. But scum PR looks likelier to me, at the moment.

Also to be clear, I don't want you to, and am not asking you to, discuss the nature of your PR in any more detail yet, unless you're either nominated, or at least a very clear front-runner for being nominated. (And I don't think we have a consensus yet on who the preferred nominees are, or at least, it's not clear to me.)

[imaginality]

Actually,

@everyone

please give your current top 3 preferred nominations in your next post.

Mine:

1. Amrun
2. GhostWriter
3. Tragedy

[imaginality]

There is no contradiction: if there are 2 people on the chopping block, and I send in 3 lists, changing the 2 people each time, then the 3rd one is the exact same as the original list. So I gave him back the original list. But I've gotta ask: where would this line of questioning go?

iso52: "

Didn't get a revised list in

before it ended."

is not the same as "I sent a revised list in, then another list after that."

[imaginality]

@Tragedy, I'll comment on your other points later, but this confuses me:

Also, I found something real interesting;

[quote="imaginality POST #14]I was wondering that, too. Though since VTs are apparently 'Casual Bystanders' it's possible for other roles to be oddly named too.

Scum detected.[/quote][/quote]

Please explain what's scummy about that. I posted that comment some time after Zinger2099 claimed 'just Casual Bystander'. It was clear to anyone reading the following posts by that point that 'Casual Bystander' must be the term for VTs in this game, regardless of whether Zinger2099 was VT or scum who'd been told the VT role PM, because someone would have questioned him about it if it wasn't the correct term for VTs. So I really don't understand what point you're making here.

[imaginality]

@Imaginality: When you mentioned "VTs are apparently Casual Bystanders", you're now claiming that you're a PR, possible scum there. "Just" a Casual Bystander can still mean you're only a VT, and who the fuck would suddenly come back with a second claim that you aren't a VT, srsly. He knows he's a VT when you know the VT's role name.. And it makes it revealing that you aren't a VT at all, so it makes me think you're a scum PR, at the moment.

Whether I am a power role or a VT, and I'm not saying either way (and the first quote above was also intended to not comment either way on that), the Casual Bystanders = VT thing was out in the open as soon as Zinger2099 had called himself Casual Bystander and multiple people hadn't questioned him over it. Everyone (well, everyone who was paying attention) knew the VT's rolename at that point, whether they believed Zinger2099 was VT or whether they believed he was scum who knew the VT rolename.

I'm not sure what your 'just a Casual Bystander' is referring to, it's Zinger2099 who said that, not me. Is that what's confusing you? Because otherwise I still fail to see your point.

[imaginality]

Why would Scum bother having a 'VT Role PM' when they usually get a 'PR Role PM' to fake with?

Consider this scenario:

You're scum. You've been told the VT rolename is 'Casual Bystander'. And, sure, let's say you've also been given a PR role PM to use as a fakeclaim if you want.

You get under pressure D1 and, although there is a decent chance you won't be lynched due to the other wagon also looking scummy, you feel you need to claim. Do you:

(a) fakeclaim PR - risking getting disproven when you have to claim your night actions the next day, removing it as an option for your scumbuddies to claim later, but maybe improving your chances of avoiding being lynched, if people believe your claim, or
(b) fakeclaim VT, so that you and your scumbuddies can get some good PR and VT reads based on how people react to the unusual rolename, which PRs wouldn't know about, and still having a reasonable hope of avoiding the lynch, especially if Kcdaspot also claims VT?

I think fakeclaiming VT is at least pretty arguably the smart choice to make there. Certainly it's better than claiming VT in a normal game (where it doesn't let you fish for PRs), and scum claim VT often enough in normals, so why not here?

[imaginality]

Vote: Lynch

What GreyICE said about how we've spent half our time today arguing whether we lynched right yesterday is right. Let's hope the janitor theory is true and we get a flip today, or failing that some good information out of the night.

[imaginality]

I'm voting Amrun over smargaret here. Mainly because of the contradiction between her receiving a VT description and Kcdaspot not, as well as her general scumminess. Also doc is an easy fakeclaim for scum.

Kcdaspot, you might want to consider this plan if you believe smargaret to be town: flip a coin, and if it's heads, go back to N1 and roleblock yourself. (If you can't roleblock himself, you shouldn't say so yet.) That way, if you can and do do that, smargaret lives. And the coin-flipping means scum will be taking a risk if they try to kill you as they won't be sure which night he's on. And they'll also be taking a risk if they try to kill smargaret since there's a chance she'd die tonight anyhow (resulting in one night death, rather than two if they target someone else).

The downside is if you both live then you haven't proven your roleclaim (did you vig and then roleblock your vig, or just do nothing), but on the other hand smargaret will get another investigation result.

[imaginality]

Night-janitoring would still have had value for scum - although town would be pretty sure the victim was town-aligned, only scum would've known the target's role. Provides a nice fakeclaim opportunity if they successfully target the power roles.