Mini 1150 - There Goes the Neighborhood - Game Over

[Seacore]

Vote: Seacore

for murdering me.

I agree

Vote:Seacore

[Seacore]

Seacore, do you often self-vote in RVS?

100% of the time when LMP is my mod.

[Seacore]

Yeah, on the survivor front, I don't care right now.

[Seacore]

I don't think it matters at all right now.
I'll care if we get close to lylo but right now he's claimed nothing that will affect the game for the next 3 day-night cycles.

Each of us, apart from Nacho, have claimed town, by default, because that's how the game works. Nacho has claimed 'pretty much town'.
He's as likely, in my books, to be scum as the rest of us.

Scum might be more inclined to leave him alone, because in lylo they may be able to persuade him to jump ship.
But Doc-Nacho or Cop-Nacho might decide to claim survivor just for that reason.

Mmmm, taste that wine scum, it's a nice vintage.

In short, note it, file it, move on.

[Seacore]

Unvote

. It's time for questions. Seacore, there seems to be wagon forming against you. Why do you think that is? Who do you find more suspicious: the person who started that wagon (the second vote) or the person who officially made it a wagon (the third vote)?

I think it's definitely the person who started the wagon, ie, the second vote. We should definitely lynch that guy.

[Seacore]

Thank you for the courtesy AV, in the time between reading it on my phone and getting to my PC I hoped nobody had got in.

At this point I'm going to throw my vote at Krypt, as he's officially done the scummiest thing I've seen so far in this game. Is it obv scum? No, but it's page 2 and I'd like to start voting based on suspicion.

Unvote. Vote Krypt

To lay out exactly why I find it scummy: Without looking at who's involved (which is at the top of this page for god sake) he's made some statements intended to get another player to call some scum out.
So that's a multiple offense in my book.
1) Not caring enough to see who is potentially being called scummy
2) Not calling anybody scummy himself, but engineering a situation in which another person starts pointing.
3) Throwing around an unfounded theory of "starting a wagon" and "officially making a wagon"

He's trying to look like he's scum hunting without actually getting his hands dirty in case he upsets somebody.

Hey everybody, come and join me over at Krypt's house. He's got a heated pool, a bbq, and later we can hang him from his diving board.

[Seacore]

if for no other reason than that Seacore has no reason to know why a wagon is forming on him.

Particularly when I was the 2nd vote on that wagon, and even a glance at the vote count would have told him that.

[Seacore]

So you asked questions without really caring about the answers in an attempt to look pro-town? Understood.

And I know you didn't care about the answers, because you didn't look to see who was on the wagon you were questioning.

More votes please.

[Seacore]

So you're saying that you knew I was the 2nd person on the wagon all along?

[Seacore]

Simply, I'm flippant about RVS because by it's nature it's not grounded in anything.

I turned 'assertive' (I wouldn't say aggressive) the moment I started building actual cases.

Your original question to me did not look, at all, like you knew I was the 2nd vote. Was it a trap? Did you think I didn't know I was the 2nd person voting for me? You suggested that you thought I might 'panic'?

[Seacore]

I'm also not happy with Krypt. If I have time I'll try and really place down why.

Someone is being voted for because of blatant wagoning... who is that again... ah Jedo.

Yeah, I don't find that scummy at all. I've seen it plenty of times, whether it's admitted or not. Day 1 you've got crap all to go with, bouncing from wagon to wagon is a good way to generate information for later. I'm not calling it a town tell, it's null for me.

[Seacore]

Doom, I didn't say it works all the time, I didn't say it's something I do (although it totally is, but I try to be more subtle about it) and I didn't say Jedo's doing it well. I'm just saying, it's a null tell. In fact, it's so blatant it's probably approaching a town tell, but not enough to actually call it that.

Instead of looking for 'scum points' and by that I mean "that guy's said something that is less than 100% perfect strategy in my eyes" look at it in reverse, what possible reason would scum have to scream "I'm getting on this wagon for the sake of it being a wagon" and "Now I'm not leaving the wagon because i don't want the wagon to unravel"

It's just a bit too much spotlight and it doesn't gain scum anything.

The only possible scum motivation I can see is if Krypto is scum, in which case Jedo is both doing a little bussing combined with undermining the wagon, but it's way too early to consider that without flips.

[Seacore]

Seriously look at Krypt in post #113. And then follow Glass's example.

[Seacore]

@Mod

: We need prods on both Nacho and Fuzzy asap.

[Seacore]

Seriously look at Krypt in post #113. And then follow Glass's example.

I don't see anything too bad. Care to point it out for me?

This

Instead of looking for 'scum points' and by that I mean "that guy's said something that is less than 100% perfect strategy in my eyes" look at it in reverse, what possible reason would scum have to scream "I'm getting on this wagon for the sake of it being a wagon" and "Now I'm not leaving the wagon because i don't want the wagon to unravel"

1) Maybe he's scum and playing like a dumb townie to take heat off himself.
2) Maybe he's scum and wants to create chaos and WIFOMF.
3) Maybe you both are scum and you decided this strategy beforehand.
4) Maybe he's scum who didn't think it that far and it was a genuine slip.
5) Maybe he's town and doing exactly what he's saying he does.

Some of those are more likely than the others, but we can't reject any of them.

Translation: Hey, here's a bunch of sneaky rhetoric about different ways he can be scum, and while I'm at it, I'll throw some suspicion on you too, Seacore. But I realise that all this is baseless so I'll throw it all away with my final line. There, now I've muddied up the waters enough you can all continue to be suspicious of Jedo.

I can't think of any town motivation for that puddle of waffle

[Seacore]

I get that. but do you know how you can say that? The exact way you did.

You can also say "I don't think it's worth discussing Jedo's motivations, he could have done it for scummy or town reasons.

But instead she listed 5 options, 4 of which list him as scum, 1 of which throws me in the deep end with him. And on top of that she then undoes it all and basically says but they aren't all equal.
It just radiates scum to me.

And then there's the actual potential motivations she's listed
1) trying to take the heat off himself - what heat? he wasn't under much heat when he made the comment
2) he wants to create chaos and WIFOM - how is what he's doing creating chaos and WIFOM, there's little chaos, it's more like a spotlight on krypt, that's the opposite of chaos. and WIFOM only works if Krypt is his buddy. Is that what Krypt is admitting to here?
3) Thought up what strategy before hand? That he'd openly declare that he's bandwagoning for the sake of it? Or the strategy that I'd vote for somebody for doing something scummy? Brilliant strategy that.
4) What slip?
5) Yeah, of course he's maybe telling the truth.

It's all crap. It would be information over analysis if there was actually any information there, but it's just waffle that puts in place some rhetoric that Jedo is probably scum and I may be scum with him.

[Seacore]

EBWOP I was ninja'd by Nacho's post, so my #138 is in response to Doom.

Also, Nacho, did you mean to type most of that twice? Or is somebody ctrl-v -ing a little incompetently? ;P

[Seacore]

God damn it Nacho... why are you so convincing.

Okay, maybe I was tunneling Krypt a little, I'll look at all again tomorrow.

Packbat's case on me is stupid though. RVS means nothing, including self votes. I have not defended Jedo, there are actually some things I find scummy about him, but the bandwagoning (the only thing I've brought up) is not among them. And I attacked krypt's scrutiny of the Seacore-wagon because it was stupid scrutiny that suggested she didn't know I was the second person on the wagon.

[Seacore]

I'm with Nacho on this one.
I was reading Power's last post on the phone and was planning on ISOing him when I got to a PC.

Nacho's done that and I see no reason not to vote.

Unvote. Vote Power

[Seacore]

Nacho raised some good points about Krypt, ones that, even I don't agree completely on, have forced me to admit I had some blinders on.
I have found some things Krypt has said scummy and I'm not going to stop looking suspiciously in that direction, but I'm willing to move on.

I don't find Jedo that scummy. I've seen town get pulled up for this stuff time and time again. "Oh look, Seacore's defending Jedo again" whatever.

Power, however, has been skimming the surface of the game for too long and has avoided making comments. He's definitely worth a vote.

[Seacore]

Quaroath, my wife and I went through the exact same thing over the last few months. I hope yours turns out as well as mine.

[Seacore]

Set. I don't believe stating my opinion on whether somebody is scummy or not is defending.

Are you defending Packbat, Krypt, Doom and Glass? When there is a wagon forming I feel that I should either jump on it, with a reason, or not join it, with a reason. That's how this game works, you state your motivations for doing things and people judge you on those actions and reasons. Ah, unless you're talking about me saying that I found some actions of his scummy and then I'm saying I don't find him scummy. Okay, yeah, that looks like a contradiction, but isn't really, not on Day 1. Nearly everybody drops tiny little scumtells early on when you're grasping for evidence to start playing with. I don't really like Jedo's proactive defences as that is often the product of a guilty subconscious, but it's nowhere near enough to vote for him on and I can also see a town source of it.

[Seacore]

Wicked.

That I don't use that much guile[1] in my play. This is partly because of playstyle choice, and partly because most of my play time is at work, where I'm working on four or five other things and I read recent posts and then post quickly. Thus I state what I mean. I didn't feel that what I said took away much pressure. I stated that it was the scummiest thing I had seen so far and would be pursuing it. Was my post just as good, or better without the bit you bolded? Maybe? But I don't think long on most of my posts, particularly my early ones. I type and submit.


[1] - My self vote is about as sneaky as I get. It was half joke at AV, half throw away RV, and half trap for scum looking for an easy target. That's right my self vote was work 1.5 of other votes.

[Seacore]

I cannot speak for packbat though :/

Wut?

[Seacore]

I cannot speak for packbat though :/

Wut?

No, I don't think you understand my confusion, Spoon.

Why would you have written this? Did anything in the question suggest you

would

be able to speak for packbat? Packbat's not Nacho's other neighbour, so even that possible explanation doesn't make sense.

That comment is just really really out of place and pings my scumdar something shocking.

[Seacore]

Why would you have written this? Did anything in the question suggest you would be able to speak for packbat? Packbat's not Nacho's other neighbour, so even that possible explanation doesn't make sense.

That comment is just really really out of place and pings my scumdar something shocking.

Now that's great and all but what would the scum motivation be for saying this because I can't think of anything.

Perhaps it's a guilty conscience at work? Scum have more knowledge than us, therefore they have to carefully manage what they say they know. Therefore, when addressing the question, would have been thinking "what does town-me know?" and written it. Whereas town would have just written out what they know, not clarified what they don't.

[Seacore]

@ Wicked I can't tell either way from your post, but are you aware that LMP is the mod?

[Seacore]

I don't have much time.

But just because we can confirm him as watcher doesn't mean we can confirm him as a town watcher. Watcher is a great scum role and I've given it to scum before. In a game that LynchMePls was in, in fact.

So what happens if we can confirm he has the watcher role?

[Seacore]

Satisfied by that.

unvote

I'll be on and off v/la over easter, but I'll find somebody to vote soon.

[Seacore]

Sorry guys, Easter has been slamming me. Looking at things, it appears that Quar and Jedo are the two options. I'll

Vote Jedo

because some of Quar's reactions to the accusations strike me as genuine.

[Seacore]

Okay, all the people that said they'd lynch Jedo at deadline need to start doing that...

[Seacore]

Set is so scum, I'm calling it right here.

Keeps saying Jedo is scum, but keeps voting for other people.

[Seacore]

Yes, I'm either tunnelling or scum, these are the only two possibilities Doom, good scumhunting.

[Seacore]

I didn't find Jedo that scummy on his own, but when it came down to either a Jedo or a Quar lynch, I went with who seemed to be more scummy, that was Jedo.

Combined with this, there were a bunch of people (and I'll search through the list and find them later) that said "I'll vote for Jedo at deadline" and none of that happened. That reads very scummy to me. Another person who read as scummy was Set, who kept finding Jedo scummy, but kept finding reasons to vote for others.

Also, Llama, please don't put offensive words in my mouth, I didn't say that AV was a twat or a VI, I simply said that while I had a vague scum read on him, I had the same read in SAIII and he was town there.

Power, please explain why you watched Set. Did you believe Set to be the most obv town and therefore the most likely to be NK'd? Or did you believe Set had the best reads and therefore was most likely to be NK'd or what?

[Seacore]

Oops forgot to really articulate my scum reads at this point.

Set
Jedo
Packbat
Twisted

However, I'll vote for Jedo because that wagon fell apart when it shouldn't have. And because it'll give information, for example, my case against Set becomes weaker if Jedo flips town.

Vote Jedo

[Seacore]

Nice misrep Doom. I said that Set is less scummy if Jedo is innocent, not the other way around.
Jedo was established towards the end of the day as the "default lynch" with multiple people saying they'd vote for him at deadline if necessary. Most of these people then went and voted for an unlikely wagon. Those people then didn't return to the Jedo wagon at deadline. THAT is what makes it dodgy.

[Seacore]

I have no problem with that being part of your power set, particularly in a game like this. And given you think I'm scum, it made sense to watch Set, so fine.

However, just to nail it down, your story is that you forgot to mention it in your original claim, not that you strategically left it out?

[Seacore]

Weird, through a fairly quick skim, the only person I can find saying that they'd switch back to Jedo to avoid the deadline is Set,

Doom. which two are you counting? And who is confirmed town???

Anyway, look at these two posts of Set's.

Sea, that's a terrible vote and Qua is clearly just trying to save his ass.

Terrible as in scummy? What is your read on Seacore? Why didn't you push him more for that vote if you think it's terrible?

I can definitely get behind a Seacore wagon.

Unvote, vote: Seacore

Happy to switch back to Jedo to avoid a no lynch. I think they're both scum.

Here is Set deliberately avoiding a Jedo wagon at all costs.
And Set thinks I'm linked to Jedo? Nice smokescreen buddy.

Setael, Jedi was a bigger wagon at this point, so why did you switch to Seacore if you think both are scum?

Yes, but Jedo's wagon had no momentum and there was a possibility for Seacore momentum if other people besides me were finding him scummy but hadn't thought a wagon on him was a possibility.

I'm down with a Quaroath lynch. I'm not going to be able to post again before deadline.

unvote, vote: Quaroath

L-1

[Seacore]

Stuff

Like I said, I was wrong. I was going by memory, I was sure there were 3 or 4 people who had promised to do so. But it seems there's only Set (left alive).

That being said. Set's defence is crap. Set could have made Jedo a legit lynch possibility. Set went on and on about how Jedo was likely scum, but at every opportunity Set voted elsewhere. Set voted for me when I had almost no chance of being the day's lynch, and then jumped to Quar to put him at L-1 when there was still enough time to give deadline lynchers a choice between the two.

[Seacore]

I agree with not lynching him for this 'mistake'

However, to those who are saying "what's the scum motivation?" I respond "scum make mistakes when they're making shit up"

I'm not saying he IS scum, but I've seen scum blunder fake claims.

[Seacore]

Sorry guys, work is smashing me at the moment. Hopefully it'll calm day by the end of the day, but who knows.

In the mean time, I don't quite understand how I'm 'coasting' GI, given I tried to get the Jedo wagon over the line at the end of Day 1 and jumped right back on it D2. Llama can also point out that I've discussed a few other scum reads with him during the night, but I'd rather not share them at the moment. I think that's how neighbours should work to be honest, if you have a town read on the person, discuss all your scum reads with them. But focus on your main scum reads.

To quickly answer what information I hope to gain from a jedo lynch: I'm not going to completely explain it because that will ruin some of the reads, but the way the Jedo wagon popped up early as an alternative to krypten, then dissolved as it looked to become the lynch of the day, that's exactly where the information I'll look for.
One obvious piece of this information is Set, look at the way she's trying to explain that she jumped off Jedo's wagon which was at L-2 to chase both me and then Quar. She could have left me and turned Jedo back into L-2, giving the end of day hammerers an opportunity to lynch a person she found more scummy than Quar, but she didn't.

Finally, this:

I'm swish with a seacore lynch
had a small gut read of mafioso since he self voted first post
VOTE: Secore

is ridiculous. TS. Am I your only scum read? I must be, because you're voting for me due to my RVS vote, which is a terribad reason. I actually self voted because a) it was funny to me, and b) I thought I might catch lazy scum who wanted to attack me for a shit reason. Looks like it worked.

[Seacore]

Also, happy scum day mod!

[Seacore]

Grey Ice, I've seen you "prowess" as town as a mod in [redacted]. I also think you're scum here. So I see no real need to defend against your accusations.

But they're pretty terribad, so lets.

Set is scummy because of her actions. She's scummy because she uses any excuse to vote for somebody who she has claimed is scummy. Even when that person is a VIABLE LYNCH.

You are scummy, unfortunately for you, for the way Jedo's wagon grew and dissolved. Jumping onto what I view as the scummy wagon that failed as soon as I can and staying there for some time is exactly what I should be doing. Just because Set is bussing you doesn't make you town. My opinion is that Set has decided that Jedo is worth bussing because he was pretty useless and enough people found him suspicious. She's now trying like mad to link me to your inevitable scum flip to try and save herself.
It's unfortunate for you, because you're a little more competent than Jedo and she probably wouldn't want to bus YOU that hard, but that die has been cast.

I want to emphasise this so you can stop pretending it's a scum tell. Finding both Set and You scummy and voting You is not an accident. Get that Set wagon going, I'm all for anybody who doesn't find you scummy to vote for Set and if it gets into majority, I'll vote Set. (*waits for Set to start screaming that I'm trying to jump off the Jedo/GI wagon*)

Twisted Spoon is scummy (but not enough to vote for yet) for multiple things. One is him voting for me because I look like an easy wagon, trying to pass it off as being because he didn't like the way I cast my random vote. Seriously? How is that not scummy? Secondly was what pinged my scumdar day 1, His comment that 'he can't comment for Packbat'. I standby that being a minor scumtell. Town have nothing to hide and don't think in terms of what they can reveal and what they can't. Scum do.
It's not enough to vote, it's enough to watch him with more intensity than anybody else. Basically, I'd hammer him at deadline in a heartbeat unless GI or Set were the other option, but I'm not looking to form a wagon.

Packbat. Really really not OMGUS. His cases are poor, as Nacho has pointed out he's avoided bring the cases he's promised he would. But hey, he might just be a bad player. Which is why I've never voted for him

Claiming that you don't like my scum reads and thus find me scummy for them is dumb when I haven't even tried to push cases on them and have never voted for them.

edit: ninja'd by Doom. Read above, I find Jedo/GI a suitable lynch on it's own. I really think it'll flip scum. The fact that my two top scum reads have a clear relationship with each other only strengthens my read

[Seacore]

Um, I was saying I've seen you as ineffectual town, so I don't care about your reads, and I care even less because you're scum here, not that you were scum there.

I'm cool with Set being the lynch today. I've said that, whatever wagon between you and her is bigger, I'll be on. Right now, you're on her wagon alone.

[Seacore]

And again, you've failed massively. I'm scummy because... of how the wagon moved.

I'm scummy for the actions of other scum

. Period. No scumtells, no scum motivation, nothing.

Here.

Yes, you are scummy because of the actions of other scum. Town Jedo should have been the mis-lynch yesterday. It was easier to do, with no added guilt for the participants, than the Quar mislynch. Neither looked like a stronger town read, neither had soft-claimed PRs. So scum should have been happy to ride Town-Jedo to D1 mislynch.

But they didn't. That's because there was no Town Jedo, there's only Scum-Jedo. So yes, I'm sorry GI, you've been let down by your scum buddies. They've outted you. I can't work out who they all are, only Set seems super obvious. I'm guessing at least one other abandoned your wagon too. So I'll just be satisfied with lynching either you or Set today. Then when one of you flips scum, I'll lynch the other.

Ah, but I can't do that easily now can I? Because you've both done the same thing, you've both suggested that I'm hunting one of you in an attempt to not hunt the other. Well thats fine. Lets lynch all three of us. I'll sacrifice 1 town for 2 scum any day.

[Seacore]

Doom, it changed towards the end of Day 1, when the wagon fell apart in a way that I'd expect a scum wagon to fall apart.
At the start of Day 2 I voted for Jedo because I felt that he was scum AND that it was the wagon most likely to give me good information.

[Seacore]

Well given the Grey Ice wagon has fallen apart, I'm happy for Set to die first.

Unvote. Vote Set

[Seacore]

Doom, that's stupid.

Set (is pretending that she) believes I and GreyIce are scum
I believe that Set and GreyIce are scum

We are the only two people who are voting GreyIce, pretty much everybody else has weighed in on the GreyIce case and have dismissed it.

So what do we do, sit there sharing a stalled wagon with a person we each believe is bussing? Or do we vote for our other scum read?

[Seacore]

@ Krypt, and anybody else who doesn't actually read my posts where I answer questions.

As stated towards the end of D1 and during my night talk to Llama (and to a degree with Power) I find both Set and Jedo/GI scummy.

I find Jedo scummy because of the way his wagon formed and fell apart. I mean, go back over D1 and watch it. It grew as a secondary wagon to Krypt, stayed secondary when Power because the prime wagon and then just when it was about to become the prime wagon itself, it fell apart and people went after Quar. Some of them did it "just to hammer so we'd have somebody at deadline" even though, with a little bit more work, Jedo could have been the lynch.

So, since the Jedo lynch hadn't happened, but there had still been a decent amount of people on the wagon at the end of the day, I jumped straight back to it at the start of the day. I was hoping that everybody who was on it D1 would join me and we could start really pushing for it. That didn't happen and that made me even more suspicious.

So that is why I've pushed the Jedo/GI wagon. There is information there. If I have time today, I'll actually compile the information I've gained from it, I was hoping to get a bit more, but whatever.

Now there's Set,and particularly. Two questions here, why did I not vote for Set over Jedo when I found Set scummier, and what makes my behaviour different from Set's.
I voted for Jedo because, as I said above, it was the last failed wagon of a mislynched Day. That's a really good place to start when there was no good reason that Jedo wasn't lynched.
What makes me different from Set?
Well, Day 1, every time I found somebody scummy I voted for them. When I found Jedo scummy I voted for him. Set can't say the same thing. Set had multiple excuses to vote for anybody but Jedo, even while calling Jedo out as scummy. That is PRIME scum behaviour.
It's basically the whole Vote:Town FOS:Scumbuddy thing that is so common.

[Seacore]

@Sea- You build a case on the person you most want lynched and vote them. For example, from your posts I can tell that your strongest read was on Set yet you continued to vote Jedo because he was the largest wagon. If you wanted a Set wagon to form, wouldn't it make the most sense to be voting him?

Just to answer this explicitly. That's one way to play mafia, it's not the only way. And it's not always the best way.

[Seacore]

Twisted (who is one of my other scum reads) was voting Jedo at the end of D1. Since D1 basically came down to Jedo vs Quar with Quar turning up a mislynch, everybody who found Jedo scummy should have jumped right back on the Jedo wagon.
I did.
Llama did.
Twisted didn't.

The only excuse for this is if Twisted encountered new information. Either from a PR or some other analysis. He didn't. Unless you count his outguess the scum NK comment. So, with no new information he doesn't go back to somebody he found scummy, instead, he votes for me. And why does he vote for me? Because of something I did in RVS. Well, since I did it in RVS why didn't he join Set on my D1 wagon. With another vote on there, that wagon would have been viable.

[Seacore]

Sigh, I love how Set is granting me psychic powers. Each time I vote for Jedo, despite my rhetoric in asking people to vote for him, I somehow know people won't do it, so it's a safe place for me to bus.

Anyway, I'm happy to sign on as Nacho's sheep for a while.

Unvote. Vote Packbat

[Seacore]

My scum read on Set would lessen, so too my scum read on TS but to a much lesser degree. And I'd start looking at people who have been defending you, looking for a white knight.

But we both know that's not going to happen.

[Seacore]

Okay GreyIce, what do you learn if I flip town? How does that affect your read on Set?

[Seacore]

Nacho, do you mean examples of when scum do the Vote:Town FOS: Scumbuddy? Or examples of Set doing the equivalent in this game?

[Seacore]

Nacho. It's scum play 102.
Scum pull shit like that all the time. They vote for a mislynch but FOS their buddies so later they can say "look, I thought he was scummy all along"
They list three "scum reads" one of which is their buddy, but they build a weaker case on them.
Basically they're all forms of distancing in which they avoiding actually bussing, but still establish 'suspicion'

A recent example is Diddin in A Storm of Swords, whenever town did something scummy, he voted for them. Whenever his scum buddies did something scummy, he FOS'd them.

[Seacore]

I'm even happier with that

Unvote. Vote Set

[Seacore]

Please watch your quote tags Doom, Nacho asked why, I didn't.

[Seacore]

Okay, so I'm at L-1. I won't claim until somebody says they're willing to hammer.

Sigh. I'm always suspected early game. People should check out SAIII, PYP, Cults of Shadow and Darkness, or really any game at all that I've ever been in. If people leave me alive long enough I usually help find scum.
I'd point to some scum games to provide some counter-meta, but I've never ever been scum.

I find Set's suspicion on me, based on my first vote and case on Krypt to be interesting. So I'm scummy for finding something that was suspicious and reacting to it. We were still in RVS, I pulled the game out of RVS and started making a case. How is that scummy?

Also, somebody asked me why I follow Nacho? In Aqua Teen Hunger Force, Nacho and Fate became an amusing/painful voting block. But from that, I learned that sheeping Nacho when he makes moves to start big wagons is a good way to get some reactions.

Also, it's great having three of my scum reads and two V/LA people making up my wagon. Feels good. Now everybody else who is actually pro-town in this game can vote somebody else.

Doom and Llama, I'd be cool with a TS lynch, as I've said, but I'd prefer a Set lynch, any reason why you guys aren't for it?

[Seacore]

You
Set
Twisted
Packbat

I've said this before.

Thus, three of them are on the wagon, one of them is off.

As for what I've done to push them.
I pushed for your wagon.
I then moved to Set's and am currently back there.

I've pointed out why I find TS scummy, twice now, and have said that I'd be happy to have the lynch today.

I've voted for Packbat, supporting Nacho's case.

None of this is news.

[Seacore]

Some people are cool with lynching me, other people aren't
Some people are cool with lynching Set, other people aren't

Accepting that your first choice may be one of the above two, is anybody not okay with lynching Twisted today? Does anybody have a shred of townread on the guy?
I'm just noticing an absence of activity, and it seems I'll end up being the deadline lynch unless we start discussing compromises now.

[Seacore]

I don't have a solid scumread on Twistedspoon - he looks bad in my reread notes, but my reread notes have only made it through the end of Page 4. At that point in the game, Nobody Special looked bad, and his slot flipped town this morning.

Wow, just wow. So really, any read you have at the moment isn't dependable so we shouldn't look to you for concrete statements of any kind?

Come back to us when you're ready to actually contribute.

[Seacore]

Well this is where I'm seeing the game going. Everybody else basically stalls for 6 more days, Grey Ice is 'forced' to jump ship to me.

GI, tomorrow, will my town flip change your opinion of the Set slot at all?

[Seacore]

"The VI" in your above statement is TS? Not really looking to question that statement, just to clarify it.

I know that you're voting Set now. But as we approach deadline if the Seacore voters don't want to switch to the Set wagon, I imagine you'll be willing to hammer me rather than no lynch?
Also, Doom has said that he'd prefer my lynch over Set's, so unless AV comes back and changes their vote, I'm seeing myself as pretty boned.

So, GI, you've stated that you think Set and I are on the same team. When I flip town will your read of Set be changed in any way? Or do you think that Set is sufficiently scummy on her own, regardless of our interactions?

[Seacore]

That's cool. I wasn't looking to judge your response either way, I was more looking to lock in your reaction. So when I flip town you can't say "Oh, since Seacore is town, I'll have to rethink my read on Set"

So far, apart from your case on me, which you've admitted is weaker than your case on Set, other people's cases on me seem to be "I didn't like his double vote", and "I didn't like the way he jumped on Krypt"
Both of those things are just dumb, and don't explain why they don't find Set scummier than me.

[Seacore]

I'm not sure how that works, Krypt

I mean, I think Set's scum. So if you lynch me, I want you to lynch her next regardless. But I don't think there's any proof that one of us must be scum. I'd like to know your case on that.

You think I might be scum. You think Set might be scum. Fine. But I would like to see your case in which both of us being wrong-town is an impossibility.

[Seacore]

Neither.

Are you going to commit to any scum reads besides my RVS vote?

[Seacore]

Hear that? Everybody that doesn't want to vote for Jedo is scum. And everybody that did vote for Jedo, except for Set, is scum.

Glad we've got that nailed down.

[Seacore]

Given that Llama has stated a preference to lynch Set, and krypt has yet to commit on anything, I think we need a claim from Set now.

[Seacore]

I don't either.
Nobody counter claim.

Also, are you a normal doctor, or a neighbour doctor?

[Seacore]

Why can they not both be town?

Granted, I'm suspicious of both and think that Set is scum, but I'd like to know why that can't be both town from your POV?

[Seacore]

You can apologise to him in the graveyard thread tomorrow night.

Are you going to even try playing this game Twisted?

[Seacore]

Actually, I'd like you to answer questions that people have asked you. The main one, asked by multiple people, being who do you find scummy?

If you are town and you keep refusing to answer this question, you will have caused a mislynch, yours. Because you will be lynched for this behaviour.

[Seacore]

Why does the set flip tell you anything about PR? Why is one of pack or grey scum but not both or neither? Why am I your only actual scum read when you have no evidence for me being scum?

[Seacore]

PR claimed watcher not tracker. I know this because I'm reading the game. Also why would tracker make a difference. If you are town please ask to be replaced by someone who will read and try to play. You are doing neither.

[Seacore]

I don't normally push people to replace out, in fact, as a mod, I've spoken against somebody doing that.

But I felt it was warranted here. It wasn't that twisted was bad. It was that he was consistently not contributing.

He thought that Power had claimed tracker, when a 3 second ISO on my phone told me that it was watcher (also my memory, but I double checked).
He made claims when he finally caved to responding with reads. When pushed on three points, he admitted he couldn't defend two of them.

I will still have him as a major scumread, no matter who replaces in, but at least we give that person a chance (whether it's a chance to scum hunt or bus, either way we win)

Nacho, why did you jump off the set wagon to waste your vote on Doom? No way is he the lynch for today.

[Seacore]

The roles being organised differently is a point I can definitely agree on. And both make me suspicious. Power's "limitation" increases his ability to dodge valuable investigation results. Set's "lack of limitation" allows her to not be bound by who she has to 'protect'.

But I think the your other concern is too far into 'out guess the mod'. I've seen games with both watchers and doctors on the same team. So lets say that there is a point at which both the doctor and watcher claim.

a) one of them may be lying
b) they both target each other leaving the scum team free to kill anybody else without worrying about being blocked or watched
c) they claim they'll target each other, hoping to fake out the scum, and then target somebody else hoping to block or catch the scum

b & c play on each other to the point that neither are dependable.

Is it strong? Yeah, sure, but it's hardly "that which cannot be considered possible"

[Seacore]

Yes, it's totally clear now

There's a doctor, a limited watcher who happens to be next to that doctor, there's a scum ability to circumvent the watcher, then there's probably some kind of town PR that circumvents that power. And maybe a scum one to circumvent that.

Or, you're lying.

[Seacore]

I really don't think Llama is scum. He's told me what his PR is, so his soft claim is acceptable. Trust me on that. If he's lying about his PR, he and I are both scum. However, his PR doesn't make him town, it could easily be a scum PR. To me, his play makes him town.

I think the last two scum are Feysal and GreyICe.

GreyICE, I'd like some answers. Who did you lynch? Why? Why not Nacho?

I think GreyICE is scum based on the way Set tried to avoid lynching him on Day 1. Set's entire interaction with Jedo looks scummy. The way he kept saying that my vote for Jedo/GI was weak, the way I knew that "it wouldn't lead to a lynch, therefore it was a safe bus", it all smells like Set and Jedo being buddies.

And I think Feysal is scum because TS was scum.

Happy to lynch Feysal today.

[Seacore]

Powerrox was telling me that she was having a conversation with Seacore over their suspects throughout the night, why the fuck would he discuss suspects with someone he was going to shoot?

I'm not scum for a variety of reasons, but this right here is a terrible reason to think I'm not scum.

The fact that I think I was the first person to call Set out. That right there is a good reason that I'm not scum.

GreyIce, if nobody else counterclaims your Vig, then fine, I'll let you be town. But until then I'd like to hear my questions that you didn't answer. Why did you shoot packbat? Why didn't you shoot nacho?
Shooting Nacho would have guaranteed us an extra day.

However, at this point I don't need to scum hunt. TS was scum. Therefore Feysal is scum. That was proven yesterday, happy to kill him now.

If I'm scum, why would I step in and defend Llama? If Llama is my scum buddy, holy shit I'm doing a terrible job at distancing.

[Seacore]

Just ignore GreyICE's posts. He thinks he's good at this game, but a cursory glance at his past games reveals otherwise.

If I'm "white knighting" then I'm doing it extremely. As I seem to be defending anybody that gets close to a lynch that I don't want lynched, and when I do actually get a lynch I want (ie Set) they flip scum.

[Seacore]

Glass' role was claimed pre-game.

[Seacore]

Okay, since everybody has posted and nobody has counterclaimed Ice, I'll admit I was wrong and move on.

Now,

Vote Feysal

I'm also willing to lynch
Krypt
Regfan
AV

in that order.

I am not willing to lynch Ice or Llama.

[Seacore]

ugh, tags

Feysal

[Seacore]

I support Llama in not claiming. I understand the frustration from your POV Reg, I do. But the town gains nothing from a full claim by Llama. If it did, I would have claimed for him already.

His PR will not help us in our lynch today and it does not confirm him as town. That's all you need to know right now.

[Seacore]

His role is confirmable, but it does not confirm his alignment.

There is no doubt (none, zip, zilch) that he has the role he's claiming. But it could belong to town or scum.

[Seacore]

Sorry, I really thought I'd made that clear before. Probably not though.

[Seacore]

Llama's early claim is a null tell. Are you sure TS's is a towntell?

[Seacore]

I'm not sure. In a Storm of Swords, town got boned by an early mass claim.

Also, there's a third possibility with nacho, he might be a town PR. My experience with him has lead me to believe he's a gambit kinda guy.

[Seacore]

Sigh, if you're saying that TS's claim is a strong towntell... then I have no idea who to be pursuing right now...

I guess Krypt is the way to go. Maybe I was indeed on to something early D1

[Seacore]

Well by PoE they're next on my list after Krypt.

Doom had a few moments when I got a gut read, but it was never that strong and I could never back it up, even to myself. Reg has increased the town read, but I know from experience that it's easier for a replacement to do that. They can come in, vaguely apologise for the replacee and tackle things from a more informed PoV.

AV. I dunno, there's a growing scum read there... maybe I've been forgiving too many of the scum tells because I misread town-AV as scum in SA3.

[Seacore]

Unvote

Vote: Regfan

I'm totally up for this. That post was very persuasive.

[Seacore]

Yeah, as somebody who was gunned down after I claimed commuter, I can still respect viewing it as a pretty scummy claim. I have no problem with you killing him, particularly if you were limited to neighbours. If you hadn't, he'd likely have just been today's mislynch.

[Seacore]

I think it's best to not limit ourselves to a nacho lynch - that if anything will stop all the glorious discussion.

Glorious discussion huh?

What are you gaining out of this discussion? I don't see any reads forming? This is the equivalent to saying "that's interesting", meaning "I want to look like I"m scum hunting, but I don't want to get pinned down"

Please post some actual reads. You look incredibly scummy to me.

You've posted some discussion points, a null read and a past read that no longer applies, anything current?

[Seacore]

I'm satisfied with where I am, but I'm willing to move over to the krytinen wagon too.
AV would be a third choice.

I too am going to be mostly V/LA over this weekend, at my inlaws who have terrible interwebs

[Seacore]

I'm back.

There doesn't seem to be much to answer to. My three "will vote for" players remain, with no additions.

There doesn't seem much in the way of questions to me, except for Feysal questioning something I said about Llama's private/soft claim.

Basically let me make this clear. I have evidence, indisputable evidence, that what Llama has told me about his PR is 100% true. Therefore the only way that the information that Llama and I are providing about his PR can be false is if Llama and I are both scum.
I'm not saying that if Llama's PR is true that Llama and I are both town, the logic doesn't work in that direction. I'm simply saying that Llama cannot be lying to me about his claim, and I know I'm not lying to you. Therefore, from your POV, we must BOTH be lying for it to not be true.

My town read of Llama comes separate to this, it's based on his play.

I would be willing to mass claim tomorrow. I disagree that one today would be safe.

[Seacore]

I'm really struggling to explain this and I understand people's confusion.

Llama is declaring that his role has been proven to Seacore.
Seacore is declaring that Llama's role has been proven to him.

Therefore, Llama's role has been proven unless both Seacore and Llama are lying.
Seacore and Llama would only lie, to this extreme extent if they were both scum.

Therefore, if Llama's role has not been proven to Seacore, both Llama and Seacore are scum.

[Seacore]

No, that is precisely what I'm not saying.

His role could be scum or town. All I'm saying is, that the role that he has told me (and Nacho) that he has IS CONFIRMED as the role that has.

It says nothing about alignment.

[Seacore]

I'm not claiming

Vote for me for it if you wish. Claiming is a bad idea. We can do it tomorrow. Storm of Swords shows how an early mass claim can destroy town.

[Seacore]

Actually, that's false Regfan. From the mod seat it was clear that the moment that the players mass claimed, scum had won assuming they didn't make any mistakes. The only reason it came close again was that scum missed a kill by not submitting an action, and a couple of other poor choices.

[Seacore]

About mass claiming. In particular, I think a Doc who has the neighbour limitation that we've seen, would be made really weak by an early mass claim.

In regards to your question about my #686. I was not doubting my read on Set.. or at least no more than I doubt any of my reads (pro tip, I nearly always doubt my reads at least a little). Actually lets state this more clearly. I wasn't attempting to demonstrate that I was doubting my read on Set.

I was trying to determine what Kypt was thinking when she posted this:

I find it more and more likely only one of you is scum. The thing is, I have no idea which one it is. Still, 50/50 change of lynching scum is better than random. If Seacore flips scum you're back to the null-read. If he flips town you're scum.

I had made a case on Set, I felt it was strong. Set had made a case on me (as did other people) and Set was attempting to convey that she found that case strong.
Krypt wasn't supporting one case over the other.
Krypt wasn't supporting both cases, claiming we were double bussing. The original WIFOM by the way.

No, Krypt was saying "the way that you two are behaving means exactly one of you are scum"

Why? What evidence was there of this? I think this is a major scumtell from Krypt (and thank you for reminding me of it)

From my POV. Krypt-scum knew there was only one scum there. If Set was destined for an eventual lynch, and she was, then this comment would earn Krypt points for being right, while also excusing Krypt from hammering me if the opportunity came.
From Feysal's POV (and other people who think I'm scum) Krypt knew there were two scum in Seacore v Set, and therefore when one was lynched, her comment would hopefully persuade people against lynching the 2nd.

Either way, the reason I posted what I did was to find out why Krypt found neither of us scummy, but concluded that one of us must be. If neither of us were scummy, couldn't we both be wrong?

Krypt never answered that.

Unvote. Vote Krypt

[Seacore]

Howdy all. I've been shamefully prodded. I've stated my reads and my lynchables. Not much more to go with really. Krypt's reads don't inspire me with much confidence and make me happy with my vote. She's playing it 'really safe'

[Seacore]

Actually, lets me more proactive.

There are 4 lynch options today

Krypt, AV, Reg, Seacore.

Please state which of the four you are willing to lynch. Mine are obvious.

Krypt, Reg, AV (in that order, but order's not so much important)

[Seacore]

Ninja'd by Llama, but I'll post it anyway

What about the argument that it's not Mylo?
I'm terrible at balancing my own games, let alone guessing how and whether the mod has balanced this. But Llama seems convinced that there cannot be 3 scum + survivor.
If there are 3 scum or 2 scum + survivor then that makes it 6v2 and we're not in Mylo.

Only if there's 3+1 are we with 5v3 and Mylo.

[Seacore]

*is looking forward to it*

[Seacore]

I have some thoughts on this, but I want Llama to answer.

[Seacore]

I'll be at work tomorrow and be able to vote AV at any stage. So that's cool

[Seacore]

unvote. Vote AV

Claim

Give us time to actually discuss.

[Seacore]

Oh yeah, I'd prefer a Krypt lynch. Get one more person over there and I'll jump back.

AV, that is no excuse for you to not claim. Indeed a claim may help with the krypt lynch

[Seacore]

I would much much prefer a krypt lynch and will jump over if given the opportunity. But I also don't want a no lynch, which is why I moved in the first place.

[Seacore]

unvote. Vote Krypten

The claim has made me more confident, I'll esplain tomorrow.

[Seacore]

Question to those people who are better at looking for relationships than I am. Can AV and Krypt be scum buddies?

[Seacore]

Unless it's an ability that can't be used N0, but they're claiming they did for that effect.

[Seacore]

Actually, remind me to talk to you in the QT about something Llama.

[Seacore]

GI and I assumed he'd be the one to die. He gave me something to post in this thread should that happen, and I was about to do so before I checked the rules and found out I can't. So I'll just pass on the general gist. It was a message to Nacho, and it was basically that Doom was scummy and AV jumped up and down about looking at Krypt. So you should do what GI wants and vote Reg.

I think we can start off with a mass claim, and Reg should go first. Probably followed by Nacho.

[Seacore]

Maybe a prod would be good, even if it's not within the prod period.

[Seacore]

VT. I've been soft claiming to try and draw a NK.

[Seacore]

Why the survivor gambit, Nacho?

*proceeds to wait for 3 days for response*

[Seacore]

Well, my Survivor question can always wait til post game.

Vote Regfan

[Seacore]

You're at L-2, calm down.

Vote Count 3.8

GreyICE (0)

-

kryptinen (3)

- AurorusVox, Feysal, Regfan

Regfan (1)

- kryptinen

Seacore (0)

-

LlamaFluff (0)

-

Nachomamma8 (0)

-

Feysal (0)

-

AurorusVox (3)

- Nachomamma8, LlamaFluff, Seacore

No Lynch (0)

-

Not Voting (1)

- GreyICE

Vote Count 3.9

**The Player List has changed**

GreyICE (0)

-

kryptinen (5)

- AurorusVox, Feysal, Seacore, LlamaFluff, GreyICE

Seacore (0)

-

Regfan (1)

- kryptinen

LlamaFluff (0)

-

Nachomamma8 (0)

-

Feysal (0)

-

AurorusVox (1)

- Nachomamma8

No Lynch (0)

-

Not Voting (1)

- Regfan

You and I switched Reg. Did you not find it odd that you were talking to Llama last night?

[Seacore]

Reasons for Reg wanting to swap with Seacore.

1) Getting away from GI. Guy was a Vig who could only kill neighbours. Maybe he had another shot coming up.
2) Getting next to Llama. Reg has been after info on Reg's role since he replaced in.

Reasons for Seacore wanting to swap with Reg.
.... uh...

Reasons for other people wanting to swap those two slots
To keep the focus on the two most likely mislynches.

Whatever the case, since nobody has claimed responsibility for the switch, I think it's safe to assume that whoever did it is scum.

[Seacore]

Some people are Reg/Seacore
Others are Reg/Nacho

I think it's clear who dies today.
Let's get on with it.

[Seacore]

Well shout if you have a question for me, otherwise Imma just leave my vote where it is and visit occasionally.

[Seacore]

And hell, it's not like the scum wasn't going to be paranoid of me being a PR just because I claimed survivor.

I tried to make sure of this as often as possible.

[Seacore]

Heh. I've been hoping you were a doc all game.

[Seacore]

I agree with the N0 conversation and conclusion completely.

I'd be happier with a Reg kill tonight but will accept a Nacho. Either way, i think we've won.

I don't buy Reg's display of confusion, not enough to change my read anyway.

[Seacore]

Yeah, I'm kinda lurking til others make a decision. AV is now my third choice. I'd be happy with Reg dying today and Nacho tomorrow.

[Seacore]

RE chaining lynches. I'm not going to get any new information after today's lynch except that we were wrong (or we've won, yay!). So I see no problem with discussing chaining them. Scum aren't stupid, they'll kill Llama or me tonight since we're not in question any more. Meaning we'll be left with exactly the same information as today.

[Seacore]

In the eternal words of the Governator "Go on! What are you waiting for?"

Seriously, people have had enough chance to say stuff, nothing will stop us from killing Reg at this point. So lets get on with the night and if we're wrong we can re-evaluate during the break.

[Seacore]

From Predator.

Go ahead and chat, I'm reading along but I know where my vote is staying today.

[Seacore]

I think it's hammer time.

[Seacore]

For the love of god somebody hammer

[Seacore]

Well that was a massive surprise. [/font=sarcastica]

So, Llama asked me to basically pass on that Nacho is his tip for scum, but that he thinks we should no lynch

I think no lynching isn't as helpful as it ordinarily might be. If we no lynch, we go to night. At night I will likely be killed, maybe feysal. I think we all agree that the scum is almost certainly between Nacho and AV. So no matter who the scum actually is, there's not going to be any shocks.
Therefore, a no lynch, unlike in a game that has no obv-town, gives us no increased probabilities.

Therefore therefore, I say killing Nacho is the way to go. The absence of the hammer just makes him look worse. Remind me to compliment Reg yesterday on hammering himself, it was the absolute right thing to do and not all town would have done it.

[Seacore]

Because Reg was a sure thing on the lynch. There was no way he wasn't going to get lynched next. Some of us were just to sure on it. A no lynch yesterday was entirely the wrong move.
As I think it is today.
I'd like to hear from everybody but I'm almost certainly going to vote nacho today.

[Seacore]

Actually, screw it.

Vote: Nachomamma8

If I'm wrong, good game AV. If I'm really wrong, really good game Feysal.

[Seacore]

Well, Feysal is confirmed town now. Since the game would be over.
So that leaves Nacho and AV, which is where I was anyway.
I've read AV as town all game. I doubted it, particularly when Llama pushed it hard, but my personal read was still town.

Understanding that the two remaining town that aren't me are both obviously choosing between me and Nacho, I'll defend myself a little.
I'd like to see more of a case on me, which would make that easier. But let's see what Feysal has just said. Well it's all based on other people's play, not mine.
Okay, basically, if I was scum, that meant that Krypt and Set were my buddies.
Check out my Day 1 play. Krypt was the first person I put pressure on, right after Krypt put pressure on me. Now I know that there's this thing called "distancing" but this was hardly subtle. This was Krypt and I shining a spotlight on the two of us. That would be really dumb scum play.
Then later that day, before anybody else made any comment, I called Set scummy outright. Again, that's pretty intense for distancing. Set made a scummy post and I drew immediate attention to it. Yes, I was also convinced of GreyIce's scumminess at the time and I was wrong about that. But I clearly made a focussed push for Set's lynch.

Now either one of those would be an acceptable scum distancing gambit. But both? On day 1 (and through to Day 2 where I helped get Set lynched)?

Whereas you both say "Nacho is pretty scummy for all his actions" Let's not overthink it. Let's lynch the guy that lied through the first half of the game and then spent the second half muddying the waters. When he wasn't trying to lurk out of the spotlight.

[Seacore]

Also Feysal, the reason you haven't seen scum meta for me is that I've never been scum. Ever.

[Seacore]

Then vote me. Hop off your little mind games of "a scum would never vote themselves!" and

a) present a strong case for why I'm the last scum
b) follow it up with a vote on me.

Instead, what you've done is spend all yesterday trying to make it seem like there were more potential scum than just you and Reg
Then you didn't hammer Reg, and while you didn't bring up a no-lynch during that day, you're now trying to suggest it was a good idea.

Today you've presented no real case. And despite the fact that yesterday your leading scum case seemed to be AV, at least that's where your vote was, AV is now town.
Sure, you've seen the light during the night. Or your gambit of voting yourself only works if scum is already on your wagon.

Grey
Seacore
Feysal

These are the people who I'm confident in being town, meaning that the strike area is:
Krypt/AV/Reg/Llama

I need a reread of this game since nothing is clicking how it's supposed to, so...
An interesting piece of VCA is that every one of those people were on the Quaorath lynch on D1, meaning that if Llama isn't scum, all three scum voted Quaorath.
Considering Llama was my strongest townread out of the group, we have some digging to do.

At what stage after you posted this did I become scum? Was it when you realised that you couldn't push a case on AV or Feysal any more?

I only work as scum by PoE, except that the same PoE points at you, and you've been a lot dodgier all game.

[Seacore]

In fact, I find this sudden realisation that AV is town and I must be scum to be really convenient. I just did an ISO on you and ctr-f'd my way through looking for my name. I see a lot of assumption that I'm town. A lot of it. Maybe I'm not always town making the best decisions, but there's no suggestion that it's for scummy reasons.

Then in this final day, when you desperately need a miracle, you play a gambit that can only work if the first person to put down a vote is your scum choice.

Then, even though this is brimming with wine, if I was scum, I would've killed Feysal. Llama had me as a townread and you as a scum.

[Seacore]

Leave your vote where it is then, I'm happy to wait for AV.

How, as either town or scum, would I know what AV is going to do? Are you suggesting that town wouldn't hammer in this situation? Because if AV and I were reversed, having seen Feysal pass on the hammer, I'd hammer the bejeesus out of you.

[Seacore]

I have only saved the games post refresh, and I've only been in one lylo since then (I've been modding more than playing)

ATHF, which you were also in, has me in lylo. Now, that game is an appalling example of anything, however it does show me saying "fuck it, vote:X" in lylo. In doing so I won the game for the town.

I do have a general impatience about mafia games, if you look through my other games, you'll find me pushing for shorter days, faster decisions. I don't think extended time helps very much. In fact, if you win this game, by convincing the other two that I'm the scum, I'll be saving this game as evidence that extra time just helps confuse things.

I'll call it "the Mina effect"

[Seacore]

Fine, like I said, it's not a good example, but here

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15627

[Seacore]

Sweet,
Three more examples of my lylo behaviour
Newbie game - In Lylo I was first to vote for the lynched party, turned out to be the last scum, we won.
Game of Thrones - In Lylo, first to vote for the lynched party - it was a mislynch that lost us the game, but hey, I blame thebuttonmen for his terrible play. (As well as my own that game, I was too caught up in the theme)
Mini-normal Me in Lylo again. Didn't vote first in lylo, but was quickly onto the wagon, can't really blame me, Llamafluff had this game well in hand when I replaced in.

Anyway, you combine that with the Aqua Teen Hunger Force game and we have a fairly regular habit of jumping on in and lynching, faster than most would.

But thanks for this assignment, it's been quite ego boosting, I had no idea I had won so many games, I always remember the losses.

However, this meta means almost nothing anyway, since I've never been scum, so there's nothing to compare it to. But it's hardly "different from usual"

[Seacore]

Also Nacho, when AV turns up, hammers you and wins as scum, you and I need to go somewhere and have a sad beer.

[Seacore]

Wow, that was surprising. Once the hammer was laid down I had no idea which one of you was lying.

Congrats AV. I based my read of you on your play during SA3 where I found you scummy all game and you turned out to be town. Only fair I suppose that it got reversed on me.

I stand by that nothing could have convinced me of AV over Nacho in the final day. And then when Nacho switched his scum read from AV to me, I thought it just had to be a gambit, particularly with the self vote.

Great game LMP, very well run.