Mini 1141 - Frogs Mafia 2 - GAME, SET, MATCH

[MrBuddyLee]

I read my predecessor's post history and he looks like a total douchebag and obvious scum.

Hi, I'm replacing Magnetic. I replaced in because PJ asked me to and because Shanba is totally Shibby. Let's catch us some scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

I read my predecessor's post history and he looks like a total douchebag and obvious scum.

Hi, I'm replacing Magnetic. I replaced in because PJ asked me to and because Shanba is totally Shibby. Let's catch us some scum.

lol when i replaced scum in another game i started off by saying something like this.

fos BUDDYLEE

I read my predecessor's post history and he looks like a total douchebag and obvious scum.

Hi, I'm replacing Magnetic. I replaced in because PJ asked me to and because Shanba is totally Shibby. Let's catch us some scum.

Did you read anything else?

No, I didn't read at all, actually. I just checked the first post to see if I was in the right game, and to see if CrashTextDummie had also replaced in as PJ promised. I think PJ may have lied to me, or at least used weaselly legalese, but I'll stick around anyway. I also checked the little dropdown at the bottom of the page and saw my predecessor hadn't posted in this game yet, so I made a smart-ass comment to see who was paying attention. No one really noticed or at least commented on the fact that my predecessor never actually posted in this game. When I said I read his post history, I actually just checked his history outside this game to see why he got banned from the site.

So anyhow, I skimmed this game today and saw some mild protections and some illogical posts and some attacks on said illogical posts. And definitely some noob play--asking someone if they're the cop on the first page? Really? Kids these days.

fos mozamis omgus omgwtf

see i can throw acronyms around too.

I'll read the game more carefully tomorrow--I believe I have lots of free time to waste. Thank you, Shanba, for not making me scum. I look forward to nailing a few of these young Turks to the wall before summer dawns. Ribbit.

[MrBuddyLee]

Yup, reliable scumtell, especially after my follow up.

Unvote
Vote: MrBuddyLee

I read my predecessor's post history and he looks like a total douchebag and obvious scum.

Hi, I'm replacing Magnetic. I replaced in because PJ asked me to and because Shanba is totally Shibby. Let's catch us some scum.

Vote:MrBuddyLee

1> He is lying.
2> It's a reliable scum-card.

I also think the M&M are scummy buddies. Was gonna vote for meransiel had MBL didn't come in and be obv-scum.
PJ,Scott, implosion looks town.

I agree that MrBuddyLee's opening post was scummy as hell

Vote: MrBunnyLee

Hey kids, what's the "reliable scumtell"? Please be very specific with your answers.


Also, @Meransiel:

Meransiel, do you still fos mozamis more than other people, and if not why are you still voting her? If so, why?

I found a reason or to to unvote, but not great reasons to vote someone else. Well, up to this point, now I have.

Vote: scotsman12

for generally just agreeing with the most popular wagon, re-enforcing that in a way that really doesn't help discussion and all-around short posts.

my vote was sitting on a player I didn't think was scum anyway, so...

Vote: MrBunnyLee

Were you lying when you said you had a "great reason" to change your vote from mozamis to scotsman12?

What are your exact positions on those two players?

[MrBuddyLee]

OGML's calling calling out of moz and Meriansel reads really weak to me.
@OGML you keep trying to get everyone to look at these two players, comment on them, and even have your vote on them, but you don't express any reason to do so (even if its just gut). What gives?

This is probably the best post in the game thus far. I spotted OGML's weaksauce on my third readthrough and was going to post about it when I came across kunk's good find.

Basically, OGML threw what's known as "slushy snowballs" in the vernacular. Nonspecific attacks, loosely packed, looks to town to do the dirty work to drum up evidence. Note that OGML doesn't give his own opinion on those two players, but demands specifics from others:

Unvote, Vote: moz

@scotmany, what are you thoughts on moz? What do you make of moz and meransiel's interactions?

@blenblen, you have completely ignored moz and meransiel despite the fact that there was serious attention being paid to them by pretty much every active player. Why? Tell me what you think of each of them: scummy, or towny?

doesn't this just seem really.. obvious? I mean. So obvious. Moz and meransiel. Everyone weigh in on them. Is there something funky going on here or what?

vote: OGML

[MrBuddyLee]

I think it's called Arishem tell, when you apologize for your predecessor.

Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallly not liking MrBuddyLee.

My predecessor hadn't posted at all. I've already said that I commented on my predecessor to see who was paying attention to the game. Clearly you aren't.

fos: Amrun

Why are you "reaaaaaaaaaallly not liking" me? Please be specific.

[MrBuddyLee]

@OGML:

What made you go from:

doesn't this just seem really.. obvious? I mean. So obvious. Moz and meransiel. Everyone weigh in on them. Is there something funky going on here or what?

to this:

humm I think maybe moz is scum and meransiel is town but I gotta think it over when I'm not so hung over.

to this:

No I'm pretty sure you're town. Moz is the one I'm concerned about.

moz is defending/buddying up to you because you were taking a bunch of heat and looked like you'd possibly be lynched, and he wanted to be in the position to say "told you so" when you flipped town, or at least have you in his corner from this point on. Don't be hoodwinked.

You sound disturbingly certain that Meransiel is town, when just three days ago you insinuated it was "obvious" that something was funky about both of them. Please clarify.

I agree it's curious that mozamis is defending Meransiel overly stridently, but why does that mean to you that it's scum defending town?

Preview edit: and now mozamis fails to read OGML's accusation correctly. He now thinks you're scum sucking up to a townie. If you've forgotten why you found Meransiel worth defending, please go back, find it, and let us know whose attack on Meransiel was "flimsy" or "suspicious" or "unconvincing" and let us know whether or not that attack was scummy.

MBL always thinks I'm easy pickens

MBL knows when you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake. Are you afraid of tough questions?

[MrBuddyLee]

@Truant, this radical change of heart is disturbing:

VERY happy with where my vote is at (Meransiel) due to the

rolefishing

that just went on in 79. Yay for IIoA,

defending a scum-lurker-buddy (most likely)

and rolefishing within the first 4 pages of a mini theme.

I don't know if this could get any easier.

Yup, reliable scumtell, especially after my follow up.

Unvote
Vote: MrBuddyLee

Did you really decide that Meransiel was no longer super duper obvious scum? Why?

[MrBuddyLee]

buddy -in one of my previous posts i explained why someones attack on meransiel was unconvincing.
why bring it up again?

I explained why I brought it up again.

I can't even remember what I didnt like about the atack on Meransiel. But someone attacked meransiel on pretty flimsy grounds. I found that attack suspicious or unconvincing.

You said someone attacked Meransiel on flimsy or suspicious grounds, but you don't seem to care who that person was. If you were town, you'd care who brought it up and whether their attack was just "unconvincing" or if it was actually "suspicious". So I want to know who made the bad argument, and I want to know whether you find it suspicious or not. And by watching you explain that, I hope to better ascertain whether your defense of Meransiel is suspect or not.

[MrBuddyLee]

It's not a change of heart, I trust Amished's scumtell (not Arishem) 100% in this occasion.

I looked up this famed scumtell:

I've basically come up with a scumtell that if you *criticize* who you replaced in; you're scum.

So now, Truant, please explain in detail two things:

1) Why do you trust it to be a 100% accurate scumtell? Has it been 100% accurate in the past?
2) Did I actually commit the scumtell Amished talked about? Considering that my predecessor, Magnetic, NEVER POSTED IN THIS GAME, and I intentionally commented on his play (lack thereof) to SEE if anyone was paying attention, are you really saying that this scumtell applies to me?

[MrBuddyLee]

My gift to lazymod:

Truant

(Mafia Bullfrog, croaked day one)

OhGodMyLife

(Mafia Poison Dart Frog, touched himself day two)

mozamis

(Mafia Non-lickable Toad, torn apart by gang of pelicans day three)

nopointinactingup

ender241

Meransiel
Tuncali
BlenBlen
Amrun
scotmany12
petroleumjelly
kunkstar7
implosion
MrBuddyLee

Magnetic

[MrBuddyLee]

Obvjoke is obv.

I was also joking about you being a weaselly lying lawyerly liar, but I suppose I should be more sensitive with those cracks. You will be a lawyer any day now, and any lying you do will be strictly by the book.

So many scummy players, so little time. Let's summarize:

* OGML for being all fired up about this game and then making town do the heavy lifting for him
* Truant for selectively applying a scumtell that doesn't even apply in this scenario
* mozamis for thin to nonexistent scumhunting and seemingly no desire to hold the feet of his "suspects" to the fire
* Meransiel for unvoting mozamis so he could vote someone he doesn't think is scum, replaced by a terrible vote on MBL while avoiding a question about mozamis

Need to step it up:
* BlenBlen -- actively lurking, not giving much in the way of opinions/analysis
* Amrun -- speaking in cliches and generalities. Let's see a case with some teeth from you.
* nopointinactingup -- says he's got three scum nailed down, gives exactly 0.0 good reasons
* Tuncali -- lying low after an early game flub
* scotmany -- ok for pointing out inconsistencies, needs to sell his cases better and give opinions on more players

Reading carefully and posting somewhat thoughtfully:
* implosion -- illogical by itself is not a scumtell so always be sure to point out how/why you think the bad logic furthers scum goals
* kunkstar -- made a good spot on OGML. thin analysis otherwise.
* PJ -- smells like teen spirit

[MrBuddyLee]

Obvjoke is obv.

* Meransiel for unvoting mozamis so he could vote someone he doesn't think is scum, replaced by a terrible vote on MBL while avoiding a question about mozamis

I am SURE scotsman is scum

, you're just an easier lynch. But JUST as scummy as he is.

Are you on drugs?

Vote: scotsman12

for generally just agreeing with the most popular wagon, re-enforcing that in a way that really doesn't help discussion and all-around short posts.

Hmm...like most people, I agree that MrBuddyLee's opening post was scummy as hell and

my vote was sitting on a player I didn't think was scum anyway

, so...

Vote: MrBunnyLee

You just said you didn't think scotsman was scum and now you say you're SURE he's scum?

You're a goddamned train wreck. Please explain your seemingly constant contradictions. What are your exact positions on mozamis and scotsman?

[MrBuddyLee]

I feel my vote will probably be on BuddyLee quite soon anyway.

Do you think petroleumjelly is scum?

What's your case on me?

Why do you think Meransiel is town?

[MrBuddyLee]

Going to do a quick run-down of the fallout from my entrance into the game, to see if any clear patterns emerge:

* mozamis fosed me because he said something similar in a previous game as scum. Note he did not leap at the opportunity to move his vote off petroleumjelly and on to me, implying that he and pj probably aren't scum together.

* Truant asked a reasonable question, probing why I read my predecessor's posts and not anything else. Did not appear to catch the "trick" in the question, however.

* kunkstar went after mozamis for his poor logic, without moving his random vote off BlenBlen

* nopointactingup used MBL as an excuse not to vote the obvious scumpartners M&M. This is weak protection of Meransiel and mozamis by nopoint.

* Meransiel jumps on the MBL wagon citing my "opening post" (note, not referencing subsequent posts, only the "I read my predecessor's post history and he looks like a total douchebag and obvious scum."), moving vote off scotmany/mozamis. Note, Meransiel wants us to see this as a vote switch off mozamis, not off scotmany. Meransiel still wants us to think Meransiel suspects scot. Mild protection by Meransiel of mozamis/scot.

* Truant votes MBL, saying the scumtell is "reliable". Moves vote off Meransiel, who Truant was pretty positive was scum. Unusual behavior--possibly protective, possibly realized he overstepped on Meransiel.

* OGML avoids commenting on the obvious hot topic. Later admits he's gunshy of MBL. Tosses slushy snowball at mozamis instead and says "pretty sure" Meransiel is town. hmm, also note: he says "MBL always thinks I'm easy pickens" which implies I'm scum trying to set townOGML up for a fall, but he doesn't vote me. Doesn't add up.

* Amrun expresses willingness to vote MBL but wants to see a vote count. Unwillingness to move vote off mozamis implies they're less likely scumpartners.

* Truant solidifies MBL read, says 100% sure he's scum. Possible protection of the other people on the line today, mozamis/Merensiel--an irrational 100% read in this scenario hints at fear of switching to #2/#3 reads.

* scot defends MBL without quite getting the full picture--he says town can criticize predecessors, but appears to have missed the "trick" that there were no posts to criticize.

* implosion reads the situation mostly correctly, goes after Meransiel, Mozamis, OGML and Truant, who MBL is also going after.

* kunkstar finds possible scum motivatoin in Truant's selective 100% application of a scumtell. Solid play, in my opinion, building upon previous solid call-out of OGML. Votes Truant.

* petroleumjelly points out that the MBL wagon is bad but doesn't make an attempt to point out who's scummy for pushing the wagon and who's not. Pokes at Meransiel and OGML instead. Note, he's ostensibly looking for a possible link between Meransiel and Magnetic(MBL) (or possibly ender) here.

* BlenBlen lazypost, criticizes MBL wagon

* mozamis leaves vote on PJ but hints he may move the vote to MBL soon. Has a "gut feeling" about PJ's attack on Meransiel and leaves the vote on.

* Meransiel says he's SURE scotsman is scum but leaves vote on MBL who is an "easier lynch". My guess is his going for an "easy lynch" is bad use of English rather than scummy, but it's worth following up to ask why Meransiel is looking for an "easy lynch".

* More bad English/scumslip from Meransiel: "I never thought scotsman could be town."

* mozamis protects Meransiel AGAIN: "note how buddylee is tunneling for Meransiel. Not sure he seems very concerned if Meransiel is scum or not..." even as MBL is voting for OGML and attacking Truant+mozamis. Yet again, no vote on MBL from mozamis--leaves it on PJ.


mozamis is gluing himself to Meransiel, seemingly intentionally. Seems willing to leave a weak vote on PJ despite having a better suspect in mind.

Minor protection of Meransiel, lesser protection of mozamis by Truant.

Same by nopoint.

Minor association between Meransiel and scotmany. I don't see scot as top tier scummy at this point, but Meransiel is overly sure about scot's scumminess. scot is pretty sure about Meransiel's scumminess, and is trying to tie him to mozamis. PJ dove deeper into this, and Meransiel needs to respond--why is scot such obvious scum?

OGML got called out by a few players and is hiding out. BlenBlen's lurking is bad, but not as egregious as OGML's, which appears to be in response to attacks. OGML coming up with 2-3 excuses in nine posts ("Nyquil", "hung over") is scummy. It's difficult to see why town would hide in this situation.

Tuncali and BlenBlen need to post more if we're to have a fair shot at pegging their alignments. In my last game, in which we eviscerated all four scum, two of the scum lurked mercilessly and thus survived til Days 6/7. We need you guys talking, or replaced, and you should agree to those terms if you are town.



@nopointinactingup
Listen, punk. You've called me "sorry", "flailing", and called me a liar like 10 times in your three crappy posts so far this game. I would probably enjoy ad-homming the shit out of you in return, but my job is to figure out your alignment, not to humiliate you. If you're scum, keep it up. If you're town, try to make some goddamned sense.


@Truant
You also said I'm flailing. Please explain in great deal why you see my play as flailing. Do you have a problem with the specifics of my posts? As it stands, you've only commented on the first sentence I posted in the game.

If his post history was what you looked into then why does he look like "obvious scum" and not "obvious cheater".

Because it's funny to call someone obvious scum when they haven't posted at all yet. It's even funnier if you can trick people into knee-jerk responding that you're obvious scum for "defending your predecessor". It's even funnier if those knee-jerkers turn out to be scum in the end. *crosses fingers*

[MrBuddyLee]

Shit just got real.

mr buddy lee, who do you think is town?

It's really early to say that with certainty, but there are definitely a handful of players who are playing logically, reading carefully, and appearing to try to make informed decisions. I outlined them in a recent post. Scum are capable of doing that in the short run, but they'll get caught once flips start happening and the subtle holes in their logic are pointed out.

More importantly, I am looking for answers to my recent questions directed at you, Truant, Meransiel and OGML.

[MrBuddyLee]

oh, i dont respond to bullying btw

again, a bt bullying for my taste. calm it down. you will get better responses.

Actually, you didn't respond to the same questions when I asked you quite calmly:

Do you think petroleumjelly is scum?

What's your case on me?

Why do you think Meransiel is town?

Please answer the questions--stalling only helps the scum if you are town.

[MrBuddyLee]

Oatmeal chocolate chip, please.

mozamis, if you have a problem with authority, please don't take it out on us. Go shoplift a Coke and Cheetos from a 7-11, then come back and give us some answers.

[MrBuddyLee]

Check out that huge post from Buddy Lee. He pretty much fingers everyone in the joint.

I assume what you're saying is that you have several more town reads than I do at this point. That's nice. If you'd like to attack some specific analyses of mine for specific reasons, please feel free to do so. That's how we catch scum up in hurr. In particular, is anything wrong with my comments on you, Meransiel, OGML or Truant, the four people I see as scummiest right now?


Also, your persuasive technique needs work:

this is a completely moronic post

After reading your recent spate of posts, I had to go back to see whether you're always this awful. Found this:

Fucking IDIOTS. I DONT KNOW WHO IS SCUM YET. ANYONE WHO IS CERTAIN IS A DICKWAD OR SCUM.
USE YOUR FUCKING BRAINS.

That behavior got you lynched as scum. You've been lynched/killed D1/D2 in pretty much every game you've been in, eh?
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16453 lynched as town, D2
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16416 serial killed N2
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16769 lynched D1 as scum


Not surprising.

This isn't a newbie game, but I'm going to treat you like a newbie/sociopath. If your goal is to persuade town that your scumreads are actually scum, insulting people is probably not the best way to go about it. Make some cogent arguments. Control your anger/frustration. Point us to some scum--scumpartners will be accepted. Use specifics, not generalities.

So I understand your case on me. I'm pointing out possible scumminess in too many players. Why's scotmany scum? You haven't provided a solitary ounce of evidence, and this isn't the random voting stage.

[MrBuddyLee]

Tuncali, do you understand that petroleumjelly is essentially claiming to be a vigilante, a role that is most often town? He claims to be trying to extract better behavior from this town by threatening slackers with immediate death by vigilante kill if they do not comply.

Do you have a problem with him demanding better behavior from town?

Or do you suspect that petroleumjelly is faking his vigilante claim? Or do you think he is a vigilante that is not town?

Because if you think he is a town vigilante, but you are still voting for him, then you are scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

MrBuddyLee, I do not know what petroleumjelly's role may or may not be. I know only what I see from the reading of his words, and what I see does not impress me. I am not liking his trying to control what we say or do. I know what the vigilante role is, but am not in a position to try and divine what his alignment may or may not be. Do you know for certain that he is a vigilante or even further that he is a town vigilante? If you do, then please explain to the rest of us. I do not like his threats and commanding style. I have my vote and I am entitled to use it as I see fit. I certainly am not tied to the vote and if I see something that makes me change my mind I will do so, but for now my vote remains on petroleumjelly.

That's one way to play it.

A common way to play it is to assume the claimed vigilante is a vigilante, and then see if they kill someone. If they don't kill, you have a good reason to pursue suspicion of them. If they kill someone, then you can decide whether the kill is pro-town or not.

The advantage to the "common" way to play is that you don't waste much time pursuing town vigs instead of pursuing scum. You will have to figure out the odds for yourself.

Post #230 sounds a bit like coaching.

Take a gander at Tuncali's post history and let me know if you still have a problem with me "coaching" him. Also, why didn't my last post to mozamis bother you? There was arguably more coaching in that.

[MrBuddyLee]

Did you mean this post?

No, this one. I coached mozamis too but that didn't seem to bother you.

This isn't a newbie game, but I'm going to treat you like a newbie/sociopath. If your goal is to persuade town that your scumreads are actually scum, insulting people is probably not the best way to go about it. Make some cogent arguments. Control your anger/frustration. Point us to some scum--scumpartners will be accepted. Use specifics, not generalities.

Amrun, what's your read on Tuncali?

[MrBuddyLee]

I actually have an insubstantial read on Tuncali at this point. Newbtown, so far, but how do you read someone so very green?

Same here, which is why I checked his post history and decided to give him a chunk of advice on how to handle vig claims. Worst case scenario, I just helped a noobscum escape from a terrible blunder. Best case scenario, he has a new town tool for dealing with vig claims, and can consider moving his vote somewhere more practical.

Basically, I'd like this game to move past the wtf phase.

Who do you guys think petroleumjelly should vig today? Maybe if we ask nicely, he'll handle it democratically.

[MrBuddyLee]

Actually, that's not what I was trying to accomplish with that post. I was trying to get you to quit calling people morons if you're town. Make some cases and quit avoiding questions.

So I understand your case on me. I'm pointing out possible scumminess in too many players. Why's scotmany scum? You haven't provided a solitary ounce of evidence, and this isn't the random voting stage.

[MrBuddyLee]

Honestly, I think Truant's recent post has a point, but not so much some of his earlier posts on the matter.

How can he say he didn't read and then FOS someone in the same post...? That's more of what bothered me then the rest. Also, thanking the mod publicly for "not making him scum" rubbed me the wrong way. Plus his coaching.

That's what bothers me about MBL.

Posting on a phone from a ski trip, so please forgive any sloppiness. Your portrayal of my post history here is inaccurate, amrun. First post, close to right away after replacing in, didn't have the time for a full threadskim, cracked a joke. Second post, explained circumstances of first post, said now i've had time to fullskim, saw mozamis's fos, fosed him back.

Still don't have many specifics on why i'm "dodgy" or what's wrong/misleading about my analyses thus far. Starting to feel like lazy scum are settling for this crappy case that's better than having to invent a new case on someone.

Has ogml picked up a prod? Can ogml and blenblen be replaced if they're not active real soon? Their slots have unfairly coasted through d1.

[MrBuddyLee]

Mozamis,

After you posted:

in fact, i would string buddy and scot up now if we could.
hopefully someone else can dig up the evidence on em, cos i cant be arsed atm

I posted:

Why's scotmany scum? You haven't provided a solitary ounce of evidence, and this isn't the random voting stage.

You've avoided answering this question from me several times now, and I believe a few others have asked as well.

What evidence do you have that scotmany is scum?

[MrBuddyLee]

it feels rather disjointed that you left your vote on OhGodMyLife after that post.

OGML expressed extreme enthusiasm for this game, and then took some heat from two players for what could best be called "inviting others to drum up suspicion on M&M without giving any analysis himself." And then OGML disappeared from the game. I didn't spot this before I made my long analysis post, but OGML made two posts in another game Wednesday and again Sunday, so clearly he replaced out of this game selectively. At this point, there are a few hypotheses you can choose between:

1) He's time-limited and chose to stick with the other game because it's further along and he likes it better.
2) He didn't like the heat he was getting in this game and thus replaced out.

(1) is less likely because he was "more excited for this game than I have been for pretty much any game in ever."
(2) is more likely. It's possible he replaced out as town because he was frustrated at drawing heat and didn't want to have to debate with me/others to prove his innocence.

Regardless, at the time I made the post you didn't like, PJ, OGML fit the mold of "scum hiding out in hopes that the other smoldering wagons will build before he has to answer tough questions". Regardless of M&M's alignment and possible protections between them and others, OGML is/was still an excellent vote and he is significantly likely scum for the two reasons outlined above. The fact that he was trying to get others to shovel suspicion on M&M means that if OGML is scum, at least one of M&M is probably town and the other very well may be. If one was scum with him, he might be more likely to post, as the scumteam would have less to lose from him pulling heat. That's all independent of THEIR play thus far.

In fact, your entire Post 188 seems to read, when boiled down, as: "Everybody who agrees with me is Town: high-five! Everybody who attacked me – mozamis, Truant, nopointinactingup, and Meransiel – is scum. And anybody who even suggests that any of those four are Town or fails to vote them (because they instead voted somebody else) are scum trying to protect their partner."

That's not at all true. My top four suspects, who I listed in a previous post, are Truant, OGML, mozamis and Meransiel. My OGML suspicions are actually the OPPOSITE of what you claim. I think he appears scummy for

attacking

M&M without reasons, not for defending them.

Nopoint clearly "protected" M&M by voting me for what you agree is a "terrible reason" when he thinks they're "obvious" scum. I don't think you disagree with that assessment. It's tough to say right now what nopoint is up to--he could just be town sticking to a shallow case on me that's based only on my entrance into the game and not on my suspicions. He seems to have delved into my early posts in some level of detail, which is somewhat townish, but his base assumption, that I lied, is wrong. He sounds pretty positive that I am scum distancing from my scumpartners M&M. It doesn't sound entirely believable, but it's one possible interpretation of my play thus far. Recently, he's changed his mind and decided that Meransiel is possibly town based on a mozamis post, and voted mozamis. My wagon was losing momentum at the time, and mozamis was taking heat, so I want to hear more from nopoint about his worldview right now. His play surrounding the leading wagons is opportunistic, and the vote on mozamis is for a weird reason and not the first one I'd pick as primary evidence. I don't have a firm read on this guy yet, so when you (PJ) say I'm calling him scum for attacking me, you're incorrect. I'm just pointing out his unusual play surrounding M&M, and myself, for future reference.

I said Truant is possible scum because he was VERY sure Meransiel was scum, but then switched his vote to me for what you once again call a bad reason, and expressed "100% confidence" in that bad reason. If Meransiel comes up scum, this is damning, because it means the Truant player slot used selective application of a scumtell to move his vote from Meransiel to lock it in "100%" on a townie. This is a reasonable connection to draw, once again for future reference.

mozamis refuses to answer simple questions like "what do you think of scotmany". He drew attention to ender's early vote on scotmany in an unusual post that looked like a possible sniff for a cop result. The conjunction of these two things makes my paranoid self wonder why mozamis is so sure scot is scum when he won't give us any supporting evidence. Thing is, I haven't seen scot's posts as terribly scummy, though I haven't done a careful read of the past few days I've missed, so this is just something to note for the future (and like the M&M situation below is unidirectional and doesn't necessarily mean much if moz flips scum). I made my post before you softclaimed, and said mozamis was unlikely scum with you because he didn't move his vote rapidly to me. mozamis is obviously connecting himself intentionally to Meransiel for no good reason I can tell. I don't see much town motivation for that, and it also doesn't make Meransiel scummier because it's the kind of thing scum in trouble could do to try to hitch themselves to a townie. tl;dr: if scot or Meransiel flip scum, moz looks bad for protection/buddying(Mer) and for certainty without evidence(scot)


I'll get to a Meransiel read in a moment, because you asked for it in detail and I'd like to reread to date before giving a detailed opinion.

It's also curious how the "protections" seem to revolve around the same players in the game. Your post almost comes to the point of just assuming mozamis and Meransiel are scum; and yet your vote is currently on OhGodMyLife for -- as far as I can tell -- pretty much focusing on mozamis and Meransiel and asking others to answer questions.

First off, I haven't reached firm conclusions on either, as should be obvious from the presence of my vote on OGML. You seem to be implying that I should have a consistent worldview on those three, but it's not really possible considering OGML's limited post history and the early state of the game.

Protections are vote switches or claims of suspicion without corresponding vote switches. (Or, I suppose, vocal defenses.) Obviously, that means that the only obvious protections we can guess at at this point will involve players currently being voted or under suspicion. You can interpret scot, implosion, kunkstar and BlenBlen as having protected me, but obviously I'm not going to delve into that because I'm town. None of their reasons for defending me looked overtly like scum sucking up, so I'm leaving it alone and even giving them minor points for not opportunistically hopping onto a growing townwagon. Most of the protections I discussed involved the decision to vote MBL or stick with an existing suspicion of mozamis/Meransiel, or switch between the two of them. That's about all we've had to work with, besides possibly selective omission, but I haven't looked for that yet. As I re-review the vote counts, the only other comment-worthy voting quirks involve BlenBlen, Truant and kunkstar moving their votes amongst each other. It's possible that one or more of the votes on Truant are votes on town protecting a M and/or M scumbag. Just things to note for the future, and as I see Truant as suspect and at least kunk's voting reason solid, I don't suspect that right now. BlenBlen is another story--his vote on Truant is without evidence.

You also did not seem to squeeze the same information from the same actions. You seem to either analyze votes as meaning "not scum with the player they are voting" sometimes, and "there is a connection between who this player is

not

voting" other times. On the whole, it looks like you are looking for "non-connections" for the players you are likely not going to attack (like me), and connections for players you

are

likely to attack.

If you really want to follow up on this after my above clarifications, please provide a couple of examples or omissions that rubbed you the wrong way. I thought my applications of protection theory were consistent and fairly thorough. And I don't think I'm weighing any of them heavily today in my decisions about who's scummy and who's not. Today is more about who's using available evidence and voting power like a townie. Future days, connections come into play, so I'm leaving a roadmap.

[MrBuddyLee]

ps. howdy, CES! And hello Apok and Darkstrike, thank you all for replacing in.

[MrBuddyLee]

Why have you been defending Meransiel to the point where he appears to be wary of you? Did you get an amazing townread off him or something?

Why are you so certain that scotmany is scum? Can you please show us the evidence you found to support your suspicion?

[MrBuddyLee]

Your giant post essentially attacked people for "protecting" mozamis and Meransiel. Despite your assertion that this does mean M&M are scum, your post nevertheless points out how they protect each other, and you

constantly

insinuate they are scummy.

My giant post contained three lines that talked about strange things Meransiel did. He voted me with a thin explanation, for a bad reason.. looked opportunistic. Since he was previously voting mozamis (or scotmany, depending on whether you look at votes or modcount) this is a mild possible protection of them. He stated unusual certainty that scotmany was scum but said he kept his vote on me because I'm the "easier lynch". And he stated that he "never thought scotmany could be town" which is probably bad English but kind of reads like he knows scotmany is scum. That's not

insinuating

that Meransiel is scummy.. that's pointing out very specific things that I think are either terrible play or scummy. And yes, I've drawn possible connections from other people, including mozamis, to this person who has done scummy things. That's how mafia is played, and I don't see why you have a problem with it.

Meanwhile, mozamis has consistently defended Meransiel. Some of it is somewhat reasonable (the poke at Truant, and semi- the poke at implosion) but it's seemed a little over the top. More importantly, mozamis has seemed net scummy, and I'm drawing possible connections between this possible scum and people who have adjusted their behavior surrounding him. Again, that's how mafia is played and I don't see why you have a problem with it.

You accuse nopointinactingup of "protecting" mozamis/Meransiel because while he says they are "obvscum" on one hand, he is voting for you. But you are pretty much doing the exact same thing by voting for OhGodMyLife over mozamis / Meransiel, when your post bleeds "M&M are scum and their partner is protecting them." Yet if M&M are scum and their partners are protecting them, it seems rather preposterous to be voting for a player who is not protecting them.

Do you think nopoint is voting me for a good reason? If not, then is it reasonable to wonder

why

he's voting me instead of the other people he claimed to find "scummy buddies"?

Your analogy stinks here unless you think my reason for voting OGML is as bad as nopoint's reason for voting me.

As a note, I also checked up on OhGodMyLife's posting, and although he did post in one game on Wednesday, it was also a single, and short, post. Contrast that with the past two weekends where he posted quite a bit. This just suggests to me that he just has more time on the weekends, and that he indeed found his other game, which has been running longer than this game, more pressing to post in. Nonetheless, he got a strike from me on principle in case he was partially ducking out, but I am not about to hang my hat on it when there is an equally (if not more) obvious and reasonable explanation.

Do you or do you not think OGML's post history was scummy? Particularly the post drawing the general connection between M&M without giving analysis of his own? It's

possible

it's a town post, but man, it reeks. Also, your analysis totally ignores the fact that OGML was incredibly juiced to play in this specific game.

Frankly, trying to say that "protections" don't necessitate scum while going through the trouble of pointing out four to five people who are "protecting" mozamis / Meransiel is just

not a credible response

; your post oozes with the presumption that M&M are scum and that their scumpartners are protecting them.

Bull. In a prior post, I listed the three-man scumteam I saw at the time, and it was OGML-mozamis-Truant. As a townie, it's my job to continue to look at everyone else until they're cleared, with more focus on the people I find scummier. Right now, and at the time of my post, I saw a hazy cloud of scumminess surrounding {Truant, mozamis, OGML, Meransiel} with nopoint flitting around the edges of the cloud and scotmany being pulled towards the cloud more by other people's posts than by his own. I reserve the right to draw hypothetical connections aloud in hopes that whether I'm dead or alive later, those connections (or non-connections) can be used to implicate (or exonerate) scum (and town).



Your take on my post(s) doesn't make a lot of sense. You seem to be implying that I have a firm opinion of Meransiel, which I don't, and I don't think my posts show evidence that I do have a firm opinion that he's scum. You seem to be saying that I should have a firmer worldview, and not make as much noise about people if the evidence contradicts or is not consistent. Or something like that. That if I'm not pretty sure Meransiel is scum, that I shouldn't be drawing possible connections between him and other people. Sorry, that's not how I play. I find evidence, try to present it honestly and relatively unbiased, and some of it turns out to be useless later. What's the harm in what I'm doing if Meransiel or mozamis come up town later? Like I said, I'm not using these connections as primary evidence of their possible guilt (unless the connection involves something inherently scummy, like clearing/suspecting someone for no reason/bad reasons), and I'd be surprised if you can find an example to the contrary.


Please assume for a moment that I am town and explain to me why my play, or specifically that post, is not good town play. I'm not seeing it.

[MrBuddyLee]

But what made you have that read and then change it? What a copout.

I should give u more on what i was thinking i guess.

Seem to remember Scotty popping up to back up some of MBls attacks

-it kinda looked like they were working in tandem maybe. But scot has since fell silent. Frankly, I just dont have enough evidence on him to think he's scum. Guess he's still in my top 5 maybe, but lynching him now would be way too premature.

scot did the following regarding MBL before you first indicated suspicion of him:
1) defended MBL from the "defend predecessor scumtell" attack
2) asked you for your case on MBL
3) asked you for specific examples of where MBL was "flailing"

scotmany never backed up any of my attacks, that I'm aware of. He voted Meransiel and has been poking at you, with a stab at nopoint. His followup questions to Meransiel have been ok. It looks like your "suspicion" of him was basically because he demanded evidence from you. Please go back and reread scot's posts and let us know why you wanted him dead last Wednesday 6pm and changed your mind today 4pm:

in fact, i would string buddy and scot up now if we could.
hopefully someone else can dig up the evidence on em, cos i cant be arsed atm

I'm no longer convinced Scot is scum. I'm pretty sure buddy is scum. And i think Mernasiel is town.

and here's the only post scot made in between:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2898983

You seem to be making up suspicions and town reads as you go along.

have to say all this protecting/defnding stuff seems balls. why shouldnt i defend people who i think are town? when did that become a scumtell?

Strawman. I'm not using these connections as scumtells unless you're defending or attacking people for no reasons.

[MrBuddyLee]

You also attack every single person who attacked you. And then you vote OhGodMyLife, who was (i) not attacking you, and (ii) not protecting mozamis and Meransiel. Your OhGodMyLife vote feels disjointed, and your recent posts have not convinced me otherwise.

This is terrible logic.

* You're saying that because I pointed out that the cases on me were bogus, that I needed to place my vote on one of the people attacking me instead of leaving it on OGML, who wasn't attacking me?

* Because I pointed out that some of the attacks on me for bad reasons might be protections of M and/or M, that I had to move my vote off a person who was attacking instead of defending (and later 50-50ing) M and/or M?

Flapdoodle. If you want to say I was painting with an overly broad brush by drawing possible connections aloud, then whatever. It's very possible, if not likely, that one or more of M&M are scum, and scum need to be on alert that their protections of scumpartners will come back to haunt them.

Basically, it reads to me as a more subtle attempt to keep the focus where you like while you silently keep your vote on OhGodMyLife. And in my opinion, subtle play has a great tendency to point to scum play.

What the heck are you accusing me of, anyway? Trying to get mozamistown and/or Meransieltown lynched while I keep a winning vote on my scumpartner OGML? Your case/attacks on me are really thin--I don't think you've actually taken issue with any of the evidence I've presented. If you disagree with any evidence I've posted on my top three suspects (OGML, mozamis, Truant), please specifically attack that evidence or the proportionality with which I've presented it.

And to anyone complaining about "walls of text", go read a comic book.

[MrBuddyLee]

As for Meransiel, my biggest problem with him is his vote inconsistency/reasoning behind them.

* voted mozamis for "gut", too clean and cautious, later said he didn't have a good reason for voting him and intended to unvote
* voted scotmany for thin posting but also omgus--scot voted Meransiel 3/16 and mostly posted about Meransiel
* voted MBL for firstpost, said he's still

SURE

scot is scum but MBL is an easier lynch
* voted pj to keep him from leading/dominating the town
* says mozamis is still scummy but won't vote him in case mozamis has a role
* votes mozamis without giving updated reasoning, but gives reasoning when asked

Can't keep his story straight:

my vote was sitting on a player(mozamis) I didn't think was scum anyway

mozamis, I was always kind of suspicious of you, to be honest

Nitpicking, maybe, but Meransiel's take on mozamis has always been a bit tortured:

I don't trust any of you bar 1 or 2 people, and they're not moz.

Though moz did kind of saved me from a tight spot, my read on him has not improved at all, if you may ask.

I do think it's quite scummy. I'm reluctant to do anything against him though...who knows what kind of role he has that he decided to protect me so much? And who knows what will happen to me if he is lynched...

Your constant defense on me, your tunneling on MBL, your casual ignoring of accusations, your complete lack of long posts i.e. actual cases

Inconsistency drives me crazy, but in my last game, a townie got lynched for a massive inconsistent suspicions flip-flop. Need to determine whether there's scum motivation behind the flip flops. Not really sure on that atm.. Also, overcertainty drives me nuts. How is Meransiel SURE scot is scum and then able to switch his vote to two other players? How is he 100% sure PJ is town?

Meransiel defending and claiming to request a prod of Magnetic is null to a minor town tell. Magnetic was town.

Saying best case scenario if PJ vigs is a dead townie and a confirmed townie--which flies in the face of the likely 1:3 to 1:4 odds of hitting scum. This is when OGML and BlenBlen are on PJ's short list. Doesn't make sense, especially considering he seemed to know his odds when talking about lynching flakers earlier. Scum motivation for making that assessment? Trying to sway PJ's vig? meh, not really seeing it. Looks more like talking out his ass.

When I suggested that PJ base his vig off a public vote, I knew there wasn't a chance in hell he'd go for that. I wanted to see who was willing to push which vigs, and a few people responded. Meransiel's request that PJ vig at L-1 appears to be a more genuine request to direct the vig, but since Meransiel's one of the more likely to go to L-1 at this point, I don't necessarily think it's a scummy request.

He was third or so on my wagon (technically 2nd but also after an FOS), and third on the recent mozamis wagon. A bit wagony. I really don't like his use of the "I don't suspect mozamis anymore" excuse to hop on my wagon when he was technically voting scot despite mod error. (He could have compared his vote on me to his vote on SURE scum scotmany, but he compared it to his vote on mozamis instead. Sketchy.)

Weird overall play, occasional flashes of town tone, minor scumhunting on scot/moz if he's town. At the moment looks about 4th or 5th scummiest to me.


@PJ:
Let's assume that your recent defenses are all correct. OGML(Apok), mozamis, Meransiel, you and I are all town. I know you haven't cleared those people, but you have been attacking me for going after them, so let's roll with this for a moment.

That leaves kunkstar, implosion, BlenBlen's replacement Darkstrike, scotmany, Truant's replacement CES, Amrun, Tuncali, nopoint.

You don't seem to think any of them are scum, nor are you questioning any of them at present. What are you up to? Because it doesn't really look like effective scumhunting from my perspective.

[MrBuddyLee]

PJ, who is your #2 suspect? (Or your #1 suspect if you're just poking at me for information.) You're accusing me of being distractive/subtle by pointing to OGML, mozamis and Meransiel (and Truant/nopoint by implication), so who else is scum besides me? I haven't really seen you poke at anyone else besides me since you asked mozamis a question a week ago.

@mozamis, Apok gave you four reasons he's voting you. You addressed all decently except "dodging questions". Probably because you recognize you've been dodging questions. Don't do it when you're town. Also, you have three pages of posts and have expressed no current suspicions other than on me. Who else do you suspect and why?

[MrBuddyLee]

I wanted to do a player rn down but I won't until we finally have everyone on board.

Please do--your analysis is really thin and your top two suspicions (M&M) are poorly evidenced.

@Tuncali, who else do you suspect besides mozamis? I don't believe you've questioned or indicated suspicion of anyone else.

[MrBuddyLee]

@implosion, how is this:

Regarding pj's kill - I'm strongly against democratically deciding who it's used on, actually. Voicing opinions is perfectly fine, but petroleumjelly should have the final say in who is killed. It tells us more about his alignment if he's scum, and if he's town then we have a kill being directed by town. Democratic daykilling didn't really work in the only other game I've played with daykills (Cyclic experimentation) since they allowed the mafia to have too much control over the kill. I'm definitely for a kill on either mozamis or Meransiel, however.

any different from this:

I'm okay with Meransiel's plan of L-1 claims/dayvigging if dayvigging is determined appropriate.

considering L-1 dayvigging is democratic and gives mafia significant control over the kill?


@CES, what do you think of Meransiel?

[MrBuddyLee]

Surely you must see BuddyLee's obfuscation and waffle for what is it, scum trying to confuse everyone. Note how he keeps trying to get people to name their other suspects. Deflects from him.
Hence why, for the time being I am not going to say whe else I find suspicious, until we lynch Buddy. Unless he/someone else does a really good job of persuading me he is town.

Haha, yeah, when I play mafia as town I usually ask people to name their favorite colors and astrological signs because I don't want to obfuscate and waffle shit up with people's suspects.

[MrBuddyLee]

re: Meransiel, I recently posted:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2924070
Conclusion: not sure, guy's weird, has choppy English, and is sloppy. Part of my hesitation about Meransiel is a bad attack or two on him and some piling on by others. Examples:

VERY happy with where my vote is at (Meransiel) due to the rolefishing that just went on in 79. Yay for IIoA, defending a scum-lurker-buddy (most likely) and rolefishing within the first 4 pages of a mini theme. I don't know if this could get any easier.

doesn't this just seem really.. obvious? I mean. So obvious. Moz and meransiel. Everyone weigh in on them. Is there something funky going on here or what?

The rolefishing accusation looks weak, IIOA accusation is fairly weak, defending a lurkerbuddy accusation is wrong, presumptuous and weak besides. Overly certain (and Truant followed that vote up with an overly certain vote on me that's wrong, so Truant's rationale/proportionality/motives are in question.)

OGML's attack is just plain bad--"hey guys, a bunch of you suspect mozamis and Meransiel so isn't it obvious they're scum together? talk more about it!" and when pressed backpedals and admits Meransiel might be town, without citing evidence. Super sketchy.

scot's attacks on Meransiel are ok, Amrun's are nonspecific, implosion's focus on the illogical and weird which is ok but not always accurate.

So yeah, Meransiel's done some scummy things and not really scumhunted a ton (suspected scot, mozamis) but I'm not sold on the overall picture. You?

[MrBuddyLee]

Amrun, I've been asked for my read on Meransiel twice in the past two pages and replied twice. You're not reading the thread very carefully. Also, I asked you if you would deliver on your promise from a while back:

I wanted to do a player rn down but I won't until we finally have everyone on board.

Please do--your analysis is really thin and your top two suspicions (M&M) are poorly evidenced.

[MrBuddyLee]

@PJ:

Sorry, but no. I don't want to exchange walls of text.

walls of texts are just a pain in the arse to read.

Basically, it reads to me as a more subtle attempt to keep the focus where you like while you silently keep your vote on OhGodMyLife. And in my opinion, subtle play has a great tendency to point to scum play.

As PJ said eaarlier, he is trying to keep people uneasy about Meransiel without actually sticking his own neck out.

Your giant post essentially attacked people for "protecting" mozamis and Meransiel. Despite your assertion that this does mean M&M are scum, your post nevertheless points out how they protect each other, and you

constantly

insinuate they are scummy.

So, what is the point of saying that? Do you think he is saying Merensial is scum, mozamis?

I think PJ answered this better than I probably will. But Buddy is definitely trying to get us to be suspicious of Meransial, without saying so explicitly.

Aww, how cute, you have a disciple.

[MrBuddyLee]

I want a one or two word read on him from you, MBL.

Bacon cheeseburger.

[MrBuddyLee]

Lazy birthday girl.

[MrBuddyLee]

Ok then,

Vote: mozamis

. Flipflopping, dodging questions, buddying/sucking up, not cool. Also saying that being illogical isn't a bad thing, and this backpedaling on scotmany.

What's scummy about mozamis saying being illogical isn't a bad thing? (I think he actually said it's not scummy, not that it's not a bad thing.)

What are one or two scummy flip-flops mozamis has made and why did you find them scummy?

Who did mozamis buddy/suck up to besides Meransiel, and what did you find scummy about his buddying/suck-ups?

Meransiel is scummy

Can you please explain why?

Truant/CES is silly in his MBL vote but otherwise fairly null.

Why silly and not scummy?

[MrBuddyLee]

How are you going to get a massive post up if you're limited to two words per player? Frogs fanfiction?

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm not hammering you any time soon, mozamis. But there's no way you can persuade me (or anyone else) that you're town when your one and only suspect is MBLtown.

You locked in on me carelessly for the first sentence I posted, and then have expanded upon that with:

* flinging lots of accusations
* flailing
* not being as nice as I usually am when I'm town
* pointing out that you've been a rude d-bag in other games too
* lying
* walls of text
* drawing connections
* getting people to name their other suspects
* insinuating Meransiel is scum without voting for him
* sowing confusion and paranoia
* posting bullshit to cover for an early game mistake
* not answering other people's questions

If you're town, this is called using confirmation bias. You're sure I'm scum, so you're viewing each potential piece of evidence from that perspective and fitting it into that worldview. Believe it or not, I'm town, and all of those things you claim I'm doing for nefarious, scummy reasons, I've actually done to try to ferret out who the scum are. Take a moment and see if anything/everything makes sense from the opposite perspective. And if it does, consider trying a bit harder to find scummy things in other people's play.

Our job is to figure out why you aren't very good at scumhunting--is it because you're scum or because you're careless town?

[MrBuddyLee]

@Apok

What do you think of nopoint? Were his attacks/vote on MBL also "silly"?

What do you think of Tuncali?

[MrBuddyLee]

@kunkstar and implosion:

You guys sound clever enough. Let's move forward to a post-mozamis world for a moment.

* If mozamis comes up town, who do you think is more likely to be scum?
* If mozamis comes up scum, who do you think is more likely to be scum?

Everyone else is welcome to respond as well.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL, quit your whole "I'm Town, I'm Town" in your posts. Not helping.

Why are you telling me how to post? Everyone here is perfectly capable of reading that statement from their own perspective, just as we're capable of reading mozamis's intransigence and Meransiel's flightiness critically. I assume you didn't have a problem with the rest of the post, which was the relevant part. Mozamis is either town tunneling or lazy scum stuck to a single crappy case born of flapdoodle. And now that you're giving approval to tunneling D1 play, we're probably not going to get any more from him. Bravo.

And I'm not impressed with your whole "who

else

do you think is scum?" schtick you have going. I (and others) don't have to solve the entire game on Day One just to lynch somebody. When (and if) I want to diversity my attacks on different players, I will. If I attack one player exclusively, it's because I find it the most enlightening at that point. The more I talk about everybody, the more my points are diluted and lost in the smoke of battle.

Ok, that's how you play. I play by getting people to make statements about townies and potential scumpartners that can be analyzed later. And I don't really care if I'm impressing you right now--you're a softclaimed vig who's spent eight days poking solely at a townie. In fact, you've only asked me one question in those eight days, while you've spent the rest of your time preaching about my poor play. Prior to that, you asked M&M a few questions on March 21st. Totally uninquisitive, while discouraging me from asking questions. Again, play the game how you like, but it's lame of you to criticize me for doing the questioning you're not doing.

You recently tried to get people to post more by threatening them with a vig. I'm getting people to post more by asking them specific, insightful questions about each other. I'm not sure why you have a problem with my technique when arguably it's going to deliver better information.

That's strike one and strike two, bucko. One more strike and you're outta here.

PJ, please explain why you haven't vigged mozamis yet when he's clearly hit strike 12. This is not trying to goad you into vigging him--it's me asking you what's changed since you made that post.

[MrBuddyLee]

Let's review the evidence that nopoint has posted.

red

=guesses/unsupported/false evidence,

orange

= so-so accusation supportable by evidence,

green

= decent point supported by evidence:

(Evidence--quotes from nopoint--are inside the spoiler, for those who wish to ignore "walls-o-text", mod feel free to remove spoiler tag if you see fit.)

Spoiler:

1> He is lying.

(a guess, a stretch, and false)

2> It's a reliable scum-card.

(FAIL)

I also think the M&M are scummy buddies. Was gonna vote for meransiel had MBL didn't come in and be obv-scum. (

buddy accusation unevidenced

)

If his post history was what you looked into then why does he look like "obvious scum" and not "obvious cheater". (

missed the joke

)

(@Meransiel) I'm certain that I see your possible connection with moz. (

repeating buddy accusation, getting scummier

)

The only people I see saying their predecessor is scummy is scum. It's like saying "Hey guys, my predes was scummy as fuk, but don't chu worry Imma look as townish as possible". (

blatant misread--predecessor didn't post

)

Additionally, you apparently didn't even read that Magnetic never had 1 post. (

falsehood

)

Stop lying. You retract your statement apx 10 hours after you made your so called "gambit to see who's paying attention". If it was really a gambit, why would you reveal it right when only about 3 people have seen it. (

lie--5 of 11 active players had posted before I revealed the joke, possibly more had seen

)

tut tut over-elaborated excuses. (

guess, stretch, and incorrect

)

this kid is flapping his wings all over the places. (

misinterpretation, but meh

)

THINK, why the fuk would someone do a gambit like " Oh cool lol Imma lie to see if people pay attention or not". (

guess, incorrect

)

He was not joking. He said so himself. (

lie

)

My initial comment was essentially meant to pressure. (

Really? "he is lying" is pressure?

)

Good distancing (from M&M) I must say. AND here we have our winning reciprocal distancing! (

guess, incorrect

)

Lol Wut? Why the vote? ( Oh shit he's DayVig, get rid of him, GET RID OF HIM .. *subconciously votes* ... ) (

fair, but doesn't comment on Tuncali doing the same

)

he revealed his card when only 3 people have commented on his post, implying that is not his underlying purpose at all. (

repeated lie

)

@Meransial why do you now think I am scum?

well, tell me why you are suspicious of me

lol scum self awareness. There's no way a town be so self conscious as to act this kind of questions. You are caught scum mozamis.
ZOMG LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH this guy. There's no way a town can say this! That increase the probability that merensial is town tho.

Unvote.Vote:Mozamis

(

not seeing it, but whatever

)

PJ, please vig mozamis after his fake claim

so I can talk about how mozamis is MBL's partner in law. (

1-2 punch

)

Conclusion: nopoint claimed to have found three scum right off the bat. "All the Ms". Evidence:
for MBL is scum, he's relying 90% on "lied about entrance into the game" and 10% on "distancing from M&M". Mostly red(guesses, unsupported or false) evidence.
for Meransiel is scum, he relied 100% on association with mozamis. Recently implied possible change of heart on Meransiel.
for Mozamis is scum, he relied 80% on association with Meransiel, 20% on mozamis asking Meransiel why he suspected him, after Meransiel expressed willingness to unvote moz.

Basically, nopoint had a circular case going on M&M based entirely on their interactions. "You're scum because he's scum, because you're scum, because you're both scum." No pointing to specific evidence about either of their suspicions of other players. Thin. And now that nopoint reduced his suspicion of Meransiel, 80% of his case on mozamis is gone but he's sticking to it just as strong. nopoint's current case on mozamis is now "you asked Meransiel why he suspected you, and town would never ask that!"

nopoint's case on MBL is even worse. There are at least three lies by nopoint and five unsupported guesses, along with interpretations of "flailing" and "overelaboration" and accusations of distancing from M&M by making cases on them. He makes no comments on MBL's suspicions or quality of presented evidence other than to say accusations of mozamis and Meransiel are distancing.

Terrible play, or scum? I still think Apok/OGML is sketchy (weak, cliche suspicions, sounds a little like parroting) while nopoint looks more willfully ignorant of evidence and unidimensional. Mozamis could be scum, but nopoint's presented case is weaker than his degree of conviction. Just like it was for his weaker, false and incorrect MBL case.

[MrBuddyLee]

I just accused nopoint of improperly tying "M&M" together, you dimwit.

[MrBuddyLee]

Just tired of the kid not reading the game carefully. He "can't be arsed" to find evidence. He's playing politics instead of scumhunting. It's disrespectful, and a waste of our time unless he's scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

that's not a call for things like "dimwit."

The kid's been snottily poking at me all day, and in return, I've given him an honest, if brusque, assessment of his play. Hopefully the honesty does him some good, because otherwise he's destined to be lynchbait for some time. (And not just in mafia games.)

[MrBuddyLee]

Buddy, sadly for me I am probably old enough to be your dad, so stop calling me a "Kid"

That's awesome.. I could literally picture the slingshot in your back pocket. My apologies, Gramps.

[MrBuddyLee]

10 fucking hours with 3 comments in between. Do you think this guy is at all proud of his "smart-ass" comment, do you think it was meant to "scum-hunt"? The FACT is, MrBuddyLee (didn't pay attention, didn't read the thread) himself and made a mistake in his first post, then he goes on to bullshit this reason out as an excuse. He would not have explained it that soon had he really thought his gambit could catch scum. Since then, he has continually avoided my accusation

What do you think of my suspicions, nopoint? You've avoided discussing them because you've been single-focused on promulgating this misinterpretation all game.

CES is $ on this, which is ironic considering I've had him as still slightly more likely scum than you.

(5 people,

not 3

as nopoint says, made 6 posts in between my first post and my second. Proof inside spoiler.)

Spoiler:

MBL says his predecessor is obvScum
PJ posts: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2887770
scot: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2887838
mozamis: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2887916
Truant: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2887949
kunkstar: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2888235
MBL clarifies

The reasons I clarified before

all

players posted were because Truant asked a legitimate question, and because mozamis had already taken the bait.

Seriously, dude, I wasn't even supposed to be in this game, but during WorldofWarcraft/NCAA Hoops Friday night, PJ asked me to come join him and hopefully CrashTextDummie, so I PMed Shanba. After hitting a bar for an hour or two, I got my role PM and made that post after reading a post or two of Shanba's to understand rules and gamestate and CTDstatus, and after clicking on the dropdown to see Magnetic's posts and going "wow, dude didn't post at all". I said absurd things about Magnetic in my firstpost because 1) I thought it was funny and 2) it occurred to me that it'd be funny/informative to see who tried to attack me. I had no desire to do a full read of the game, or even a skim, on a Friday night at 11:30PM, so I made a humorous hello post. It wasn't a trojan horse I labored over for hours.. it was just a funny hello with a side order of "let's see who's paying attention". Do you really want to beat this into the ground some more?

@nopoint, I think you're willfully ignoring and twisting evidence at this point in an attempt to frame me up. You've gone beyond Javert, beyond Clouseau, beyond Keystone Kops at this point, perhaps to "Chief Wiggum".


I think if I showed this quote to 1000 townies:

I read my predecessor's post history and he looks like a total douchebag and obvious scum.

and pointed out that my predecessor never posted in the game, that 999 townies would comprehend the joke. You are the one special snowflake, nopoint. Or better yet, you're scum, and everyone can buy me a @#$@#$ drink after the game for catching you and mozamis.

I'll laugh if the first person I caught with this trick (mozamis) turns out to be scum. Regardless, nopoint, please feel free to keep chasing me around with a giant squeaky rubber mallet after the reveal.

[MrBuddyLee]

ah, dayvig. Good luck, everyone.

[MrBuddyLee]

@Amrun, if you really wanted to know the answer to that, you could do an iso on me and search for "Truant" or "CES".

[MrBuddyLee]

@Apok:
What do you think of Tuncali?

[MrBuddyLee]

vote: Apok

for a combination of OGML's leading "moz+merans" questions and Apok's flimsy cut-n-paste posting thus far. Sees nopoint as scummy and silly for missing facts, sees Truant/CES as "silly" for missing facts. Didn't come across well on the "illogical" accusation of mozamis. Apok's Meransiel suspicions were almost entirely based on the presumption that moz was scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

CES, mind giving your thoughts on Apok?

[MrBuddyLee]

So is mozamis dead or not?

LOL, does playing "blonde" generally work well for you in mafia games?

[MrBuddyLee]

LOL, does being a jerk generally work well for you in mafia games?

I dunno, never tried it!

What you've seen vis-a-vis CES and me is a valid observation. We just got done playing a game together in which we nailed the last three scum in the last three lynches after being lynch-or-lose for a month. I have ideas about how to evaluate his alignment, and I imagine he ignores most of what I post and has ideas on how to read me.

@Amrun, how would you order {Truant/CES, nopoint, OGML/Apok} in order of most-to-least-scummiest, and why?

Also,

Oh, and I forgot to mention that MBL's "case" on Truant is conditional upon Merensial flipping scum -- which, if MBL and Truant/CES are scumbuddies, they know will not happen.

Got inside info that Meransiel's town?

[MrBuddyLee]

Also, this is incorrect:

MBL's "case" on Truant is conditional upon Merensial flipping scum

My actual case(s):

* I found Truant's case on Meransiel weak (IIOA, rolefishing and defending an inactive scumbuddy (Magnetic/MBL)).
* I found Truant to be overly certain of his Meransiel case ("I don't know if this could get any easier.")
* I found Truant's case on me terrible and in ignorance of the facts
* I found Truant overly certain of his case on me ("100% certain of scumtell in this situation")

I said that IF Truant comes up scum or IF Meransiel comes up scum, then it is worth considering WHY Truant suddenly switched from one "certain" case to another. But my Truant case was not in any way conditional upon Meransiel flipping scum.

Your play is sloppy, Amrun. You notice some good things, but you need to be more rigorous in your analyses or you will be seen as scum omitting data selectively to help you push bad cases.

[MrBuddyLee]

There's a definite connection between you two and Occam's razor tells me it's most likely because you're scum together.

Is that mozamis defending merensial?
Yeah there's something going on there.
At least I think so.
mozamis and meransiel looking more linked by the post.

Might want to get a new razor.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL has been tunneling on mozamis and nopoint with a couple of scattered mentions of Truant.

By tunneling, I suppose you mean "voting someone else entirely all game".

Good distancing (from M&M) I must say. AND here we have our winning reciprocal distancing! (guess, incorrect)
Why do you say that this is incorrect?

I'm pretty sure nopoint was talking about me distancing from M&M in that segment. And I'm not distancing from anyone in this game--thus, incorrect.

Oh, and VOTE: nopoint because I find MBL's case convincing. I also find it slightly odd that MBL isn't voting on it.

I was uncertain about mozamis, and I'm uncertain about nopoint. "dumb, or scum?" is the indelicate way to put it. I typed up that case on nopoint, and a part of me said "he's trying, he's just locked on like an autistic pit bull". I read a few games of his play as scum and town, and this didn't look typical for him. I want to see more breadth from the guy--so much of his posting is anti-MBL, and I want to temper any OMGUS I feel rising in my throat.

[MrBuddyLee]

Noticed this being quoted on the last page and haven't seen the flip so I feel my answer is sufficiently pure (make of it what you will)

This is probably one of those lame "gotcha!" questions, but I've gotta ask anyway. How did you know there was a flip if you haven't seen what it is?

"who else do you think is scum?" schtick

MBL's post asking people about mozamis's flip does seem kind of odd to me, actually... at this point it's probable that mozamis is going to be killed (probably dayvigged) so I suppose it makes sense to ask for both scenarios while both are still applicable, but on the other hand I can see a definite possible scum motivation for that question - setting up mislynches, that is, being able to sheep on to whoever's opinion implies townies are mafia.

A litter higher in your post, you said that if mozamis flips town, we won't have much information to work with. That was the eventuality I was concerned with, and thus wanted to get more people on the record about more people, just in case. Fortunately, it was a vig instead of a mislynch, so we have more time to get people on the record today, but do you really see "who else is scum besides #1 suspect?" being a question loaded with scum motivation? If sheeping was the purpose, couldn't I just sheep after they vote the mislynch instead of asking the question?

Also, who do you see as having sheeped on to others' mozamis suspicions as we're discussing here?

Tunneling was not a good word to use. I meant focusing your attention on.

mozamis was the top suspect of most people, and an obvious vig target. Doesn't it make sense to focus on him to try to determine his alignment? I tried getting better behavior from the guy back on March 22nd or so and you said:

coaching super-scummy mozamis doesn't help me get a townread on you

As for focusing on nopoint, here's a quote of mine from March 28th:

he could just be town sticking to a shallow case on me that's based only on my entrance into the game and not on my suspicions. He seems to have delved into my early posts in some level of detail, which is somewhat townish, but his base assumption, that I lied, is wrong. He sounds pretty positive that I am scum distancing from my scumpartners M&M. It doesn't sound entirely believable, but it's one possible interpretation of my play thus far.

Here are your three options:
1) I'm scum focusing on him because he's being an idiot and looks like an easy mislynch.
2) I'm scum, we're partners together, and this is brilliant distancing.
3) I'm town, and I'm trying to figure out what's up with this nutjob.

@Amrun: Do you think it's reasonable for me to "focus" a little on assessing nopoint, considering the vehemence of his attacks on me?


Finally, how can you say I've been taking it easy on Truant when this is your first read on Truant all game:

Truant/CogitoEroSum - Null, leaning scum.

I had a weak townread on Truant

, though I didn't agree with some of his logic. CES' posts just rubs me the wrong way.

[MrBuddyLee]

I didn't have any problem with your focus on mozamis and nopoint -- UNTIL you said Truant/CES was scummier than them. Truant attacked you just as vehemently as those 2, yet you make a big case on nopoint while Truant/CES remains a higher scumread? THAT'4 what makes no sense to me and made me suspicious.

CES just replaced into the game. He's posted like seven times and I've asked him two questions thus far about his suspicions. I still suspect his player slot even though CES himself hasn't been scummy yet.

Your attacks are pretty shaky, Amrun. This one included. The CES-MBL "connection" causes you to say this:

VOTE: MrBuddylee

Will be willing to vote for him or CES. It doesn't really matter which one goes first, I suppose.

Which sounds like you're VERY sure both are scum. Or you're VERY reckless.

So, for starters, please point me to one CES post you disagree with thus far. Or better yet, give a full analysis of his posting thus far. I want to know if your vote for him is based on his play, or based entirely on the fact that he and I are cordial with one another. Can you make the big case on him that you're expecting I should have made?

[MrBuddyLee]

Tuncali, mozamis is dead. A review of your post history indicates that you don't believe anyone else in the game is scum. Can you give us an update please, and perhaps give this game a bit more effort moving forward?

[MrBuddyLee]

@all: Sorry for the wall-of-text, but PJ's accusations require some level of detail in order to accurately refute them.

2.)

MrBuddyLee, coming back at you.

You claim that when people have “obvious scum” but then vote somebody else, they are “protecting” the obvious scum.

This has been bugging me for a while.

If somebody does something suspicious in a recent post, then it is certainly not uncommon to vote for them immediately even if you think somebody is more suspicious. The reason is obvious: asking a question (or claiming to be suspicious of somebody) without a corresponding vote is not nearly as forceful as saying “this is scummy” followed by a vote.

Mafia is not necessarily a game of “keeping your vote on the scummiest player at all times,” which seems to be how you are trying to read this game. Mafia is a game of doing what is necessary to weed out the scum. Which often involves moving your vote around.

False representation. I specifically said the poor quality of the case they switched to was what's relevant.

Spoiler:

Not sure why you keep missing this point, particularly since I directed it at you personally, PJ. You think the

particular

case they switched to (MBL) was

fallacious and terrible

. Others agree. Therefore, it's worth considering why people switched

from

cases they found "certain"

to

cases you and others find

atrocious

. If it was switching from one good case to another it'd be less suspect.

================== end spoiler ===========================

6.)

MrBuddyLee, getting tired of stuff like this. You attacked OhGodMyLife for saying “isn’t it obvious that mozamis and Meransiel are scum?” Then you attacked nopointinactingup “for improperly tying M&M together.”

Yet you have

constantly

pointed out that you thought Meransiel and mozamis were scum, and you have

constantly

pointed out how they have protected each other (and not only that, but how others have been “protecting” Meransiel and mozamis).

It's dishonest to compare my behavior towards "M&M" to OGML's or nopoint's. (Or Amrun's.)

Spoiler:

Here's are my references to them acting weird towards each other, in which I clearly state the weak connection doesn't make them scum in and of itself:

I agree it's curious that mozamis is defending Meransiel overly stridently, but

why does that mean to you that it's scum defending town?

You(mozamis) said someone attacked Meransiel on flimsy or suspicious grounds, but you don't seem to care who that person was. If you were town, you'd care who brought it up and whether their attack was just "unconvincing" or if it was actually "suspicious". So I want to know who made the bad argument, and I want to know whether you find it suspicious or not. And by watching you explain that,

I hope to better ascertain whether your defense of Meransiel is suspect or not

.

mozamis is obviously connecting himself intentionally to Meransiel for no good reason I can tell. I don't see much town motivation for that, and

it also doesn't make Meransiel scummier

because it's the kind of thing scum in trouble could do to try to hitch themselves to a townie. tl;dr: if scot or Meransiel flip scum, moz looks bad for protection/buddying(Mer)

Why have you been defending Meransiel to the point where he appears to be wary of you?

Did you get an amazing townread off him or something?

I'm clearly asking questions to try to ascertain whether there's a scummy connection, not assuming there is one like others did. And instead of painting with broad strokes, I made it clear that most of the "protection" was unidirectional.

I'm not sure why you don't see the difference between OGML's:

doesn't this just seem really.. obvious? I mean. So obvious. Moz and meransiel. Everyone weigh in on them. Is there something funky going on here or what?

and the specific evidence I've been posting. Evidence, not innuendo!

Unlike OGML (and Amrun, and possibly a few others), I didn't try to paint M&M with a broad nonspecific scummy swath just because they behaved strangely towards one another. It's what Amrun recently tried to do with CES and me and she got called out on it.

I haven't used "weirdness between two players" as primary evidence for their scumminess. And at this point, mozamis didn't come up scum, so much of that evidence is moot.

================== end spoiler ===========================

This is even more dishonest:

You look like a complete hypocrite. You call M&M out for being scum, and for protecting each other, and then you use that as your basis of attack on others.

Spoiler:

* I called mozamis possible/likely scum and Meransiel about 5th on the list. More importantly, I pointed out specific things Meransiel did,

independent

of mozamis, that made Meransiel somewhat scummy. I constantly pointed out that mozamis was terrible and doing scummy things,

independent

of his behavior towards Meransiel. You have yet to disagree with any of the evidence I presented on either of them.

* I used "M&M protecting each other" as a basis for attacking others? False.

* I used M&M being scum as a basis for attacking others? False.

Mozamis flipped town. Connections drawn to him are useless. The only reason I drew possible connections at the time was because I thought he might come up scum, and I was thinking aloud about who might be protecting him by voting me on a bad case.

================== end spoiler ===========================

I have to say, your posts are just not reading like Town to me. It seems like you’re just calling people terrible players whenever they attack you. I have to sympathize with mozamis: it certainly does seem like you’re being more of an ass this game than I remember you normally being.

Did you constantly people out as being terrible, dimwits, etc., in Oldy Mafia? I’m not about to read that monstrosity of a game just to try to meta you.

If you take issue with me calling particular play "terrible", please point out specifics. I reserve the right to call terrible play terrible, and if someone repeatedly carelessly misreads me, (eg: reads my posts defending them as attacking them), I reserve the right to call them a knucklehead or some such similar. It's frustrating and sometimes disrespectful when people don't take the time to read carefully.
Evidence that my frustration is valid:

Spoiler:

I posted this, solely attacking

nopoint

for improperly basing his "circular" cases too much on M&M's interactions (by inference, my post defends mozamis):
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2927770
And mozamis replied:

At least the main point people will go away with is "Moz amis could be scum....". Lol another classic Buddy post. Intelligent, awesomely presented and full of vague suspicions, and of course the inevitable pseudo-subliminal nonsense about "M+M".
A scum tour de force! Bravo

I believe it was the second or third time he'd done that.

It's a misread of my post by mozamis that defies any and all common sense and logic. Take a moment to read it, PJ. You obviously haven't, or you'd understand. It's frustrating and insulting when a player refuses to read the game carefully, and plays politics instead of playing based on evidence.

================== end spoiler ===========================

Quotes from Oldy, in which I was also town and called terrible play terrible:

Spoiler:

IH, what kind of phone do you have? Because you suck at posting from it. If it's like an enV, this makes perfect sense, but if you have an iPhone or Droid, everyone should switch their votes to your lurky ass.

(stark saying) lazy and stupid was a wee bit harsh, but otherwise stark's post was spot-on. How are we supposed to ascertain your alignment right now? You look more like scum than anyone in this game at the moment, and you're being intentionally obtuse in a futile attempt to make your pursuers look bad. It's not going to work, and you're going to rack up justified votes.

If you're town, intentionally giving everyone valid reasons to vote you doesn't help the town. If you're scum, you're boring.

If I had the dayvig I'd pop Ecto right now. I'm not confident in his alignment, though--he hasn't given us much to work with--off the top of my head I can recall he thinks Yos and I are scum, Gurgi is halfscum possibly protecting Mert, and Fritz is town. That's about it. Apparently his blockheadedness isn't indicative of alignment.

Specifically to this point, Ecto's #1 suspect is me OMGUS. I have obvious reasons for not respecting that "read". His #2 suspect is Yos, a suspicion that materialized the moment Yos called him out for the same thing I did. OMGUS #2.

So yes, I feel qualified right now, mid-day-one, to say Ecto's "reads" this game suck. They're pure OMGUS and I have no idea how anyone can possibly be getting a genuine town read off him right now.

Actually, the timeline goes:
...
* If you're town, this is terrible play

It's been a week since you've said anything that could be remotely construed as conducive to catching scum. IH has the excuse of "broken computer"/"playing LoL". What's yours?

Mert, Glork, CES, Yos, DGB, why specifically are you voting Ecto?

I just reviewed people's stated reasons for being on the wagon and they're terrible or mealymouthed or nonexistent.

Stark, is the guy scum or are we just removing him from the game for intransigence? Or likely both?

This is the entire case you've posted on Ecto. It sounds more like you believe he's crappy town, or want to blame me if/when he comes up town.

Regardless, Ecto's reads at that time were pretty self-centered. "This guy is attacking me, he's scum." "This guy is agreeing with me or defending me, he's town."

I think it's charming that in Oldy Mafia, you've joined me in the inevitable march towards senility.

Jesus H Christmas.. please just answer the question. Why are you willing to hammer Yos when you recently said he was likely town?

I've read my face off trying to tell whether your fairly lazy posting is possibly lazy town. I'm not tunneling. And I'm not full of shit. If you can't tell that from my posts, you're not paying attention.

================== end spoiler ===========================

Last game as scum? Possibly Hotel California:
http://mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7926

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm also suspicious of MBL; he's focused on discrediting players

How would you differentiate my "discrediting" from scumhunting?

he's left himself wide open. He could go after me, Amrun, Tuncali, nopoint, or CES fairly easily right now, and that's just from quickly skimming his recent posts.

Do you have reason to find any of those other players townish? If so, please share.

[MrBuddyLee]

@implosion, Apok, scot and Amrun, what do you think of Meransiel? (scot, you gave an updated read, but I'd like that "more info" you mentioned.)

[MrBuddyLee]

I'd actually like to see your response to this, MBL. The only response that I see is you saying that it was 5 and not 3; that essentially sidesteps the main argument.

I believe I answered that question inside the first spoiler here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2929252

For those that have played with ces, does he normally not explain his votes like he has been doing in this game?

Correct. He will usually elaborate if you ask nicely.

please refrain from calling me "dishonest"

Ok. scot may or may not be town, but he used the word "twisted", so I'm not alone in my feeling that your posting's off. Somewhere between "dishonest", "twisted" and "careless" is where I feel your reading of this game falls. Guessing based on the way the last game was balanced, it's unlikely that a daykiller is scum in this game, so no, I don't think you're likely scum at all. I'm just frustrated at being misread and called all sorts of crap by mozamisTown, called a liar, sorry, flailing, FAIL, weak, pathetic, bullshit, and incorrectly accused of strawmanning by nopoint, and tired of being misread by Amrun, who has at least been polite about it. Being accused of hypocrisy by you, on what I consider a pretty bad misread by you, is the icing on the cake. You're probably not all scum. So it's frustrating, and yeah, I'll watch my tongue so it doesn't distract from the game anymore. It's just that words like "dimwit" were invented for a purpose, and it really felt like the situation called for it at the time.

Usually, your posts seem more pointed and inquisitive; but this game, it seems like many of your posts ever-so-subtly paint other players in a bad light, for pretty much no good reason that I can see.

I'm feeling pretty damned pointed and inquisitive. I've had to spend more time defending myself this game than in a usual game, mostly because of my "Magnetic was obvscum" stunt, which has added to noise in my posts. Hopefully it put a scum or two in a bad position (nopoint, Truant) but at least so far it's been a town honeypot. I've also been ad-hommed more than usual, and you should note, I didn't start that crap. As for questioning other players, there's a limited amount to go on right now, as the mozamis lynch kind of took us back to square one. I'm asking the best questions I can, and so are a few others, but I think to some extent it feels like we're all fumbling around in the dark right now.

@PJ: It's been a week since you asked me a question about my suspicions. It would be a refreshing breath of fresh air to have a discussion with you about suspects instead of being preached at about my playstyle. Problem is, you've shut me down when I've asked for your other suspects and you've even insinuated that me asking for other suspects is bad play and/or scummy. So I've been asking other people those questions and leaving you to do your thing. Ball's in your court.

[MrBuddyLee]

Also, MrBuddyLee, it seems as though you only have 19 posts in the game you linked me too, so it is not very helpful. How about I instead ask for a game which you feel is representative of your scum play?

I got nominated for a Scummy for best scum performance in this game--I forget whether I won or not: http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewto ... 40&start=0

[MrBuddyLee]

CES, how do you differentiate nopointScum here from noPointLazytown? I mean, we just made that mistake with mozamis.

[MrBuddyLee]

OGML's slot fell out of top for me due to the mozamis slot, which OGML's read depended on mozamis's alignment.

Why did mozamis flipping town make you think OGML/Apok was more likely town?

[MrBuddyLee]

Amrun, what do you think of nopoint and the people on his wagon?

CES, what do you think of Amrun?

[MrBuddyLee]

I still like my CES vote but will vote for iamusername to achieve a lynch.

my relative scumread on you, MBL, makes me lean town on nopoint at the moment

Pay attention to see if you find a link between Truant/Cogito Ergo Sum and Mr. Buddy Lee.

Please clarify.

[MrBuddyLee]

The mod has been prodded. The last vote count was pretty inaccurate, and there hasn't been a new one in two days.

Vote Count:
5: iamausername (Cogito Ergo Sum, implosion, scotmany12, Meransiel, Apokalyptica)
3: Apokalyptica (MrBuddyLee, Amrun, Bella)
1: MrBuddyLee (petroleumjelly)
1: Amrun (kunkstar7)

Not Voting: Bella (wants to hammer nopoint/iam), Darkstrike_11 (suspects nopoint and Apok)

Deadline is Monday March 18 April, btw

[MrBuddyLee]

Vote Count:
5: iamausername (Cogito Ergo Sum, implosion, scotmany12, Meransiel, Apokalyptica)
4: Apokalyptica (MrBuddyLee, Amrun, Bella, iamausername)
1: MrBuddyLee (petroleumjelly)
1: Amrun (kunkstar7)

Not Voting: Darkstrike_11 (suspects nopoint and Apok)

kunkstar, what do you think of Apok? I have about the same thoughts on nopoint as you do--almost too reckless to be scum. Played terribly if he's town. Left the site, apparently only abandoning this game, when mozamis came up town.

I think it would be fair for the iamausername voters to at least ask a few questions of their top suspect.. iam was nice enough to replace in, and yet of the iam voters, though they seem to have read iam's posts, only scot seems to have asked iam any followup questions.

Apok, can you please summarize your case on iamausername? I didn't get it clearly from your last analysis post. Also, who would be your top pick for scum right now if nopoint were vigged and came up town?

Amrun, you've mentioned CES like 10 times in the past two weeks and yet haven't asked him a question in about that long. I think you've only asked him one question all game, about why he switched his vote from nopoint to mozamis. How are you furthering your read of him?

CES, who's your #2 suspect? Also, why aren't you asking iam anything?

scot, Meransiel, implo, what do you think of Apok?

Darkstrike, replacements should post more.

Oh, and hi PJ!

[MrBuddyLee]

Is iamausername scum? I know you had a problem with the predecessor (nopointinactingup).

I know you guys like short answers with no fluff, so I'll say "probably not".

1) The nopoint wagon came together somewhat easily.
2) If nopoint is scum, coming after me like he did was suicide.
3) I like iam's scumlist and reasoning.
4) Minimal attempts to ask iam meaningful questions are lazy town/possible lazy scum.
5) Two or three of the players I've found troublesome are on the wagon.
6) Bella's and Amrun's overeagerness to hammer despite suspecting/not suspecting nopoint.
7) Scum would have been energized by the mozamis lynch, not demotivated.

I can definitely see where you're going with a nopoint case. He's been avoiding answering questions, using inaccurate evidence repeatedly to back up his case despite it being pointed out, he's really inflexible and focused too harshly on certain players. and he seems to have been substituting vehemence for a quality case.

(sounds a little like scum calling a townie scummy)

makes me lean town on nopoint at the moment.

(and yet didn't grill her top suspect hard to make him an alternative)

I've had time to step back from any possible OMGUS of nopoint for his ridiculous attacks on me.

[MrBuddyLee]

Thank you, Shanba, for your patience and diligence finding replacements. It's obvious you're rooting for town. Good man.

I want to see a detailed analysis of nopoint/iam from whomever hammers. Amrun, you recently had a town read on iam. If you are strongly considering hammering, I want to see your full case before the flip.

[MrBuddyLee]

Before I do that:

VOTE: merensial

I'm posting from a phone, so I may have missed something, but why did you move off of apok, your #2 suspect and the #2 Wagon here at deadline? You think iam is nulltown yet you sabotage the Wagon of likely scum to make a pointless meranvote?

[MrBuddyLee]

If... If iam/nopoint comes up town, keep in mind tomorrow that town have been serving themselves up on silver platters to be sacrificed, and the smart play for scum would be to sit back and let town take the lead on these lynches. Hope for mistakes and overreaches by town lynchers, and position relatively well for the post-flips. Decent chance I end up dead tonight.. good luck tomorrow, town. Think out of the box.

[MrBuddyLee]

Apparently 6 votes is not enough?

Also, amrun, the point is that instead of trying for the best possible lynch in your mind, you are posturing at deadline. Your play is exquisitely political, and you are using connections between players as primary evidence left and right. Few and mbl. Meranvote and nopoint. Clean up your play tomorrow if you're town--you're becoming easy lynchbait.

[MrBuddyLee]

Amrun, to restate, you are making it easier to lynch someone you claim is town by voting meransiel.instead of apok. Your play isn't internally consistent.

[MrBuddyLee]

Please please let red font mean scum.

Ps. Hi PJ!

Mod Edit: I can't lock the thread and edit my post, so it's locked in spirit. Please no more posting

[MrBuddyLee]

vote: kunkstar

[MrBuddyLee]

CES, you're my hero.

[MrBuddyLee]

FOS: Meransiel

[MrBuddyLee]

Apok, why did you claim your role?

[MrBuddyLee]

Not much I can do to change your mind without WIFOMming, CES. And since you're 99.9% town, I don't really need to ask you any questions about why. But considering I'm at about L-1, you might want to clarify to town that you didn't track me to PJ.

Weird game. If there's a traitor like in Frogs 1, then we're shy on D1 connections. kunkstar going after OGML makes OGML look a tad more townish in retrospect. Tempered by the fact that kunk didn't off move his random vote to OGML, who he claims just did something really scummy. Followed later by:

OGML's slot fell out of top for me due to the mozamis slot, which OGML's read depended on mozamis's alignment.

Why did mozamis flipping town make you think OGML/Apok was more likely town?

The comment OGML made that made him look scummy was even more so scummy if moz flipped scum because not only was he trying to focus attention at mzoamis, it would put him in a pretty good bussing connection if mozamis had flipped scum. But mozamis did not, so the connection is obviously null, making the read less.

Not good logic at all for clearing OGML, and the second example of mild protection. Also, THIS bothers me:

If mozamis flips scum I will have a solid scumread in OGML (or whoever replaced him) based off of his earlier connections to mozamis.

because kunk KNOWS mozamis won't flip scum.


However, he DID try to get Apok lynched near deadline:

5: iamausername

(Cogito Ergo Sum, implosion, scotmany12, Meransiel, Apokalyptica)

3: Apokalyptica

(MrBuddyLee, iamausername, Amrun)
1: MrBuddyLee (petroleumjelly)
1: Amrun (kunkstar7)
Not Voting: Apokalyptica, Bella, Darkstrike_11

My vote isn't doing much where its at, although I would prefer to see a lynch there.

Vote: Apok

. A fine second option, and a lynch I prefer to iamausername.

Really ballsy play by kunk if Apok is his scumpartner. Made it 5-4 with PJ, Bella, Blen as nonvoters. It's possible Apok's a traitor and kunk didn't know it at the time, but meh. I really thought OGML was scum, but Apok claiming double voter is probably slightly townish. Scum would have every reason to hide that.

I think looking at interactions with kunk are probably the way to go today, unless you feel he was a master of subtlety.

[MrBuddyLee]

You're eliminating someone you shouldn't be.

[MrBuddyLee]

Maybe Bella? I've eliminated everyone else for weak reasons as well.

[MrBuddyLee]

Unvote: Meran, Vote: MBL

I'll go along with this for a bit; do you want to elaborate or not?

VOTE: mrbuddylee

Why are you two voting for me?

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm not going to vote until we hear more from Bella.

I doubt implo is scum based primarily on the fact that he apparently didn't commit the first nightkill, but also because he sounds somewhat townish. I don't think CES is scum.

I'd be surprised if kunk tried to get scumpartner Apok lynched over nopoint so close to deadline yesterday. (CES, do you agree?)

That leaves scot, Meransiel, Amrun, all of whom have said things that come across as varying degrees of townish. I don't like a few things about each, but that's not a complete case.

scot doesn't seem to have any firm suspects right now. (But as I'm explaining, that's not entirely unlike a town position right now.) He went after mozamis harder than I did for mozamis accusing me of bullshit things. Got the same townish vibe off Meransiel that I did mid yesterday. Locked in a bit hard on nopoint/iam for very rigid reasons. Looking for a bit more analysis from him on the remaining players. Don't really see his opinion of Amrun anywhere. Or Meransiel lately.

Meransiel bothers me with a lot of his little details, but I got a town vibe first half of yesterday despite nagging little things. However, he hasn't expressed a reasoned suspect in forever, which is scummy. I don't like how quickly he accepted Apok as a town doublevoter, particularly considering he seems to most recently agree that CES, Amrun and I are town, that doesn't leave many scum candidates.

Amrun is loose with the facts and quick to suspect for crappy reasons, but seems fairly interested in finding scum. I don't like that she's sheeping like a maniac--sheeping on a bad Apok point, sheeping on a CES vote, quick to agree with my FOS of Meransiel. I didn't like her move to Meransiel yesterday to seal a nopoint lynch, but if Apok is town, that's mostly irrelevant. She voted me today while claiming to suspect Meransiel both end of yesterday and start of today. Sketchy, but possibly just loose, somewhat irrational play like Ether played in the last game CES and I played together.

Little to go on with Bella, but I didn't dig:

Also: Meransiel is an idiot. Thanks for claiming for me on day one. Neighbour doesn't mean one must be scum. Shanba is too smart for that. The lack of confirmation significantly weakens the power of the role, which helps with the balance. Bleh.

Why idiot and not scum? Didn't seem to suspect Meransiel at all for the unprovoked claim.

CES I have a less strong read on, but I'd be willing to bet he's town. He's playing in a manner consistent with previous experience of his town play, at least - particularly the "vote without stating reasons" thing that's been leveled against him, I've seen him do that plenty of times as town.

Really not sure there was enough to go on to be willing to bet CES was town at the time. He was tunneled on nopoint and poking at Amrun. Null at best for me, thus I see Bella's statement here as overreaching and possibly scummy. "he votes without reasons as town" is a lousy argument for pro-town CES on April 12th.

[MrBuddyLee]

B) I am still suspicious of you.

Why? Your last few reasons (protecting CES, protecting mozamis) have pretty much been proven incorrect.

[MrBuddyLee]

Amrun, we're lynching scotmany or MBL today.

Ignore this.

MBL--CES seemed like he had a thing going, so I wanted to see where he would go with it.

So why are you still going with it? Both of your current votes are for outdated/incorrect reasons.

Why do you think Implosion would've made the first nightkill, MBL?

Because he was perceived as more clear than kunkstar, and therefore less likely to be roleblocked or tracked. The only way he wouldn't have been chosen, imo, is if he was a traitor not part of the scumteam yet. (I am suspect of the 2 scum + traitor possibility given (1) 7 days for N1 and (2) 2 days for N2 hint that a required process that existed N1 no longer needs to occur--the discussion/agreement about who to attempt to integrate as a traitor is a possibility.)

double voter analysis:
Incorrect D1 vig + incorrect lynches D1 and D2 + nightkills N1 and N2 = 13-5=8 with 3 scum, one being a double voter, the game'd be at lynch or lose (and require all 5 town votes to align to overcome 4 scum votes) pretty damned early. Plus, Apok had no incentive to claim the role if scum--if she committed the nightkill, she'd have probably claimed cop or some such, if she didn't, she'd more likely have claimed vanilla and kept the double vote hidden? It's somewhat unlikely that Apok's scum at this point.

nightkill analysis:
PJ was a weird nightkill, considering he'd made it clear he was a 1-shot vig while CES had the potential to still investigate. Either scum didn't fear being investigated by CES N2 or they wanted to frame me by killing PJ--dude didn't express suspicion of ANYONE else after mozamis died. CES claimed to suspect Apok and MBL end of D1, so that's another reason to suspect Apok less--CES might have been the preferential nightkill for her over PJ.

Amrun, scot, Bella, Meransiel. Two scum in that batch, most likely.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm here. The fact that Bella was motivated to replace into the game but hasn't been motivated to try to find scum for the last month.. troubling.

Bella read the game, and immediately latched on to the "two things she was asked to respond to" and nothing else. Cemented CES as town (prematurely, imo) and then used him to justify her vote on nopoint. Made one milquetoast reference to Apok's scumminess and then quit trying to find scum.

Meransiel, I normally ain't as interested in townreads as scumreads, but it seems everyone is working on process of elimination. Who are your inferred scumreads?

scot, when you're done with finals, please give us some details on your reads of Meransiel vs. Amrun. If you have a Bella opinion too, please share.

CES, wouldn't you think that if Bella were town, at least one scum might have tried to serve her up as lynchfodder by now? (Hint: I'm the only person seriously putting her forward as a candidate, and no one's biting.)

[MrBuddyLee]

I find it hard to be persuaded by a case that relies upon someone doing something that is a consistent part of their town meta as evidence that they are scum. It happens to me plenty.

So CES only gives pithy answers as town? The point here is not that you disagreed unreasonably with the case that CES was scum, but rather that you used this as your primary evidence that CES is town.

From this point forward, you all are going to hear this drumbeat incessantly from CES:

Everyone should vote, preferably for MBL.

You have two choices: ignore it, or cave in and lynch a townie. Please resist.

[MrBuddyLee]

I really hate being lynched as town. It'd be tempered by the fact that this game has 11 replacements, but I'd rather win. Can you please consider bucking your trend just this once and coming up with a backup suspect?

[MrBuddyLee]

Scotmany12 and Apok's claims are pretty convincing too, so that just leaves MBL and Bella by process of elimination.

How do you eliminate Meransiel? Tone-based?

[MrBuddyLee]

Heck, I could've tracked him last night.

Even if you did, that wouldn't make him town. You must be saying that his claim was unprovoked?

[MrBuddyLee]

No, but giving pithy answers is something he does either way, so it doesn't convince me either way.

You seemed to use it as your main stated evidence for CES=town:

CES I have a less strong read on, but I'd be willing to bet he's town. He's playing in a manner consistent with previous experience of his town play, at least - particularly the "vote without stating reasons" thing that's been leveled against him, I've seen him do that plenty of times as town.

Who do you suspect, Bella?

[MrBuddyLee]

I guess we can afford a mislynch anyway.

We can?

Amrun, can you please link to the last game in which you were scum?

[MrBuddyLee]

I just tracked down two games in which Bella was scum. Wrestling and LOST. She lurked through the first 29 pages of Wrestling before being replaced (with a v/la as an excuse for some of that) and she didn't hunt scum much in LOST and was eliminated early.

Not seeing how her play in this game is uniquely townish for her. If it is, please explain more clearly.

[MrBuddyLee]

Well damn, Amrun, you're deadly scum. Bravo.

Time for a reread.

[MrBuddyLee]

@implosion, did you reread Meransiel's play or are you standing on your previous judgment?

[MrBuddyLee]

Amrun-Bella makes sense.

* Failure to critically analyze one anothers' play
* Amrun made efforts to tie me to Tuncali but not mozamis for coaching
* Amrun's been loose and sloppy with her play, accusing almost everyone at one time or another
* Amrun made overreaching efforts to draw attention to her "spat" with kunkstar
* Bella ain't done sheeeit
* this:

Yeah. You just ruled out minimum 2, maximum 1 people as non "important" PRs, narrowing the field for PR-huntig scum... I don't see any town motivation for that at all.

And you haven't even had time to talk to her yet!

(seemed to know bella's slot hadn't talked to meransiel yet (N0), though this could also imply amrun-meransiel)

* this hyperattentiveness:

You know, guys... I've been thinking for some time about the balance in this game... and, as close to the nightphase as it might be, I think Bella should die.

Why Bella, Merensial?

Outside chance of implosion being scum at this point.. his reasons for his votes thus far:
* Meransiel was illogical
* mozamis, for being tied to Meransiel
* nopoint, for MBL's case
* Bella, for this http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2957125 post, says everything else she's said is null

Really weak performance by implosion. And his play and Amrun's play have been full of excuses, posturing about why they aren't posting. I especially like this:

Okay. I'm not going to give a full list of reads at this point because night is really soon and I don't want the scum having any extra information.

Amrun saw implo as null-to-town and never touched him again. implo-wishy washy townread on Amrun.

my gut also says that Amrun is town based on some of the logic that she's used.

Please explain.

implo clearing Meransiel the way he has (and me to an extent) makes less sense unless implo-Meransiel is the scumteam.
@implo, when and why specifically did you shift opinion on Meransiel? You wanted him lynched alongside mozamis, now you're so confident he's town that you don't need to reread him.

[MrBuddyLee]

@Amrun, please make your complete case against Meransiel.

[MrBuddyLee]

build cases on my suspects, etc.

Doesn't this usually work in the opposite order? When you're town, at least.

[MrBuddyLee]

Second reason is completely wrong. I thought they were both scummy, but at the point when I changed my vote, I thought mozamis was scummier than Meransiel.

implosion, when I read your posts looking for reasons behind your votes, I didn't find much if anything. Which surprised me, because on the surface you seemed interested and engaged for much of the game. Then I looked more carefully and you actually didn't give much in the way of concrete reasons for votes.
On mozamis:

mozamis is also scummy

mozamis contradicts himself then justifies it by saying contradiction and bad logic isn't a scumtell.

Meransiel and mozamis are still both scummy as hell

I don't think that it's nearly as major as anything Meransiel and mozamis are saying

I'm definitely for a kill on either mozamis or Meransiel

I actually like Meransiel's vote on mozamis. It makes sense with how Meransiel's been acting, even if I still find it odd that Meransiel has been suspicious of mozamis without actually really calling him out until now. I still think they're both scum, but mozamis is climbing higher than Meransiel.

Incredibly thin on reasoning. Granted, that's how CES plays, but that's his MO, and you said a lot without saying much of anything about mozamis, and still managed to slide your vote on over to him.

I also wasn't able to find anything concrete when I looked for reasons why you shifted on Meransiel. You originally voted him for being illogical, which ain't a great reason.

If you had other reasons, they weren't ever stated, and scum benefits way more than town by being off the record on these kinds of things.

[MrBuddyLee]

Hey hey, let's lynch MBL.

Are you skipping what I'm posting because your mind's made up, or do you just not see any merit in it?

[MrBuddyLee]

My thoughts on Amrun, who's probably the excellent scum who's messing with all of our reads in this game. Her reasons for voting are consistently overmanufactured and stretch belief. Way heavy on the cliche scumslips:

• Amrun voted Mozamis for assuming two scum.
  
• Claimed to suspect MBL for the "Arishem scumtell".
  
• Voted Meransiel for an alleged scumslip.
  
• Accused MBL of coaching Tuncali.
  
• Said I was scum for thanking Shanba for not making me scum.
  
• Suspected BlenBlen for replacing out after being attacked.
  
• "I keep picking up on associative tells between Tuncali and MBL, so if one flips mafia, that will really affect my reads."
  
• Called nopoint/iam scum for "mudslinging".
  
• Accuses MBL of being scum for mudslinging against mozamis.
  
• Said CES and MBL were scum for blatant buddying
  
• Said scot was scum for not voting kunkstar fast enough.
  
• Voted Meransiel for implying foreknowledge of Apok's alignment.

Note that none of that is about analyzing suspicions. It's just thin manufactured reason after thin manufactured reason. And instead of using the data to create a big picture of everyone, she seems to use the most recent "gotcha" as her entire case. Currently:

I have already said that much f my suspicion of Merensiel relies on her having seeming foreknowledge of people's alignments

In this post, Amrun talks a tiny bit more in depth about her scum and townreads, doesn't really sound like she put a lot of thought into it.
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2926445

It doesn't feel so much like she's evaluating people's worldviews and suspicions as she's playing gotcha.


I adore iamausername's summary of Amrun:

Amrun

- She does a whole lot of weasely double speak "that could be scummy, but maybe not in this instance" early on, then gleefully jumps on an attack on Meransial for doing the exact same thing. Selective appliance of scumtells continues, as she attacks Meransial for displaying overconfidence in another player's alignment, but doesn't seem to care when other players, who are less easy targets than him, do the same thing. On several occasions, she says something along the lines of 'I am not going to vote for MBL for now' or 'I am not suspicious of MBL yet', implying that regardless of what MBL does, she intends to vote for him in the future. Also when she does express suspicion of MBL, she seems to have a completely different reason for doing so in every post. She's also constantly apologizing unnecessarily for her activity levels, suggesting a high level of concern about how she is coming off.

Having said all that, this is all from the first half of the game. I think she's improved a lot more recently, and I'm starting to doubt my read on her a little. Her attacks on CES look genuine to me, as does her reappraisal of Meransial.

Doesn't make iam's opinion correct, but the general tone matches my sentiments.

vote: Amrun

[MrBuddyLee]

All of these are valid reasons to think people are scum, though you have phrased several of them in ways to make them look ridiculous, like "said scot was scum for not voting kunkstar fast enough," which is just silly.

As I said, you don't believe they ARE good reasons, because you only stick with the most recent one or two and jettison the old ones.

My current suspect list (in order):

1. Merensiel (implied foreknowledge of Apok's alignment)
2. Scotmany (for not voting kunk yesterday and lack of content recently)
3. Bella (lack of content)
4. MBL- Lingering gut, mostly. Earlier vote was due to misunderstanding.

I don't think my observation about your scot suspicions was "silly". scot approved of CES's poke at kunk, then went to Easter dinner. You cast your vote 9 hours later. kunkstar hammered himself a few hours later. So basically, you voted scot for not being around between 6pm and 9pm on Easter evening. Well thought out.

Meanwhile, you placed the L-1 on kunkstar even though CES, your #1 suspect from the previous day, was the one accusing kunkstar.

Bzzt. You're scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

As for not going as in depth in my reads as I should, well ... yes. I have and will freely admit to that which is why I have promised to do that very thing in the next couple of days. For whatever reason, things keep interfering with my attention span this game.

I'm working on it, but a couple of other games are higher priority right at this second.

I think my PoE is narrowing down a bit from the work I have done so far on this game (though I am going to finish it all before posting).

Basically what you're saying here is that when you're scum and a couple townies have been eliminated as suspects due to their roles, it's really not fun to have to make up cases on the few remaining townies. Especially when they don't look super scummy.

So you're demotivated. That's understandable. Voting yourself (or your partner) would solve the problem and provide this game with the burst of energy it desperately needs.

[MrBuddyLee]

Hi, Oman. Thanks for replacing in.

[MrBuddyLee]

Why were you working on your MBL case before your Meransiel case?

[MrBuddyLee]

I look forward to nailing a few of these young Turks to the wall before summer dawns.

The jokes aren't funny, and are racist and offensive (unrelated question: are you Greek, German, or Australian, or just parroting other cultures?), so why make them if not to plant seeds of towniness in people's minds for no real gameplay reason?

young turk

- an insurgent in a political party, especially one belonging to a group or faction that supports liberal or progressive policies: The leadership of the party passed from the cautious old-line conservatives to the zealous Young Turks.

Also, young Turk, young turk . any person aggressively or impatiently advocating reform within an organization.

This was actually a joke making fun of myself for being an old fart. Being a "Young Turk" is a good thing. Kids these days... *shakes fist*

Ok, you proved MBL is a douche.

Ok, you made my girlfriend snort milk out her nose, and now she wants to know who this Amrun chick is so they can go shopping together.

[MrBuddyLee]

Amrun, it's a compliment, not an insult, to call someone a Young Turk.

MBL, can I go shopping with your girlfriend?

Shelly says anyone who's into bacon cheeseburgers is ok in her book.

[MrBuddyLee]

kunkstar, what do you think of Apok? I have about the same thoughts on nopoint as you do--almost too reckless to be scum. Played terribly if he's town. Left the site, apparently only abandoning this game, when mozamis came up town.

More buddying behavior with kunkstar. There has to be something wrong with your scumdar if you always agree with scum - unless you are scum, of course.

Amrun, you make no attempt here to analyze the quality of my defense of nopoint, which is the core issue here. Was my defense of nopoint scummy? Did it read to you like "scum defending town" for some reason? Did you compare my defense of nopoint to kunkstar's defense of nopoint? No.

Instead, you make the blanket statement "kunk and MBL agree--thus they are scum together".

I went through your entire "case" and you only analyzed the quality of my scumhunting twice. Once, to point out that "bacon cheeseburger" was not effective scumhunting. The second time, I told mozamis that he should find a backup suspect because his case on me sucked:

hopefully someone else can dig up the evidence on em, cos i cant be arsed atm

You're not trying to determine my veracity by analyzing my words, you're more trying to tie me to a faction based on my attacks on town and my agreement with scum. Hint: town doesn't know who's who, so sometimes we do that.



Here's another really awesome example of your failure to analyze--let's take the first kunkstar post I agreed with:

OGML's calling calling out of moz and Meriansel reads really weak to me.
@OGML you keep trying to get everyone to look at these two players, comment on them, and even have your vote on them, but you don't express any reason to do so (even if its just gut). What gives?

This is probably the best post in the game thus far. I spotted OGML's weaksauce on my third readthrough and was going to post about it when I came across kunk's good find.

OGML's ISO 3 is good to me, but then

ISO 4 is terrible

You're trying to incriminate me by connecting me to him, but you agreed with the same kunkstar post I did.

You're not reading the game for context--you're reading it for gotcha.

[MrBuddyLee]

What would you consider the pro-town play in my circumstance?
* I agreed with kunkstar about two early posts (re: OGML and Truant), and agreed with him (correctly) about nopoint-town.
* I pointed out two weaknesses in his play while he was still alive, and a possible scumslip where it looked like he possibly read about PJ's vig in a Quicktopic.

When he flipped scum, would you expect town in my situation to NOT try to use kunk-interactions as evidence? Just because I agreed with him in a few places? Whether you're scum or town, you're essentially following my advice here--using kunk-interactions to find scum. So it's bizarre that you'd call me scummy for suggesting that course of action.

You also don't seem to address the fact that I'm the only person (I think) to really clear another player (Apok) based on their interactions with kunkstar and/or kunkstar's behavior.

[MrBuddyLee]

Noticed this being quoted on the last page and haven't seen the flip so I feel my answer is sufficiently pure (make of it what you will)

This is probably one of those lame "gotcha!" questions, but I've gotta ask anyway. How did you know there was a flip if you haven't seen what it is?

OGML's slot fell out of top for me due to the mozamis slot, which OGML's read depended on mozamis's alignment.

Why did mozamis flipping town make you think OGML/Apok was more likely town?

Summarizing your case on me, Amrun:

* 4 counts of "acting like Townie McTownerson"
* 2 counts of agreeing with known scum on OGML and nopoint
* One count of having a bad scum/townlist 2 days into the game
* One count of "let's trust mozamis's suspicions--he thought MBL was scum"
* One count of bacon cheeseburger
* One count of "told mozamis to make a case on someone"
* One (false) count of suggesting we use kunk-interactions and then not using them
* One count of FOSing Meransiel while finding him mostly townish D1


You pretty much never assess my actual play. I don't get a sense that you asked yourself questions like:

* "were MBL's thoughts on OGML townish?"
* "mozamis and nopoint were attacking MBL on bad cases.. did he respond like scum or like town?"
* "has MBL's evolution of opinion on Apok made sense from a town perspective?"
* "is MBL zeroing in on scum now or is he trying to mislead us?"

I'm convinced that you're the type of player who (like me) would put a fair amount of effort into rereading the game as scum. What I'm trying to figure out is.. are you approaching the task like scum or town? The hardest thing for scum to fake is uncertainty. They lock in on town (or on scumpartners) as "guilty" and forget to include a measure of doubt in their thoughts. It feels like that's what you're doing here.

[MrBuddyLee]

I really dislike the way he's using my meta. It's one thing to say "so and so tends to do this more as scum than as town" but to say, "Amrun has a good scum record, so she should be scrutinized" iis doing the opposite of what he was trying to do with himself, painting himself as town. Instead, he's planting the idea that I'm scum for no valid reason. A case of sorts followed, but it felt like it was contrived after he realized he could use my good record as scum as a tool to mislynch me. Not too long ago, he had cleared me as town, iirc.

Plain and simple, I semi-cleared you too early for tone. As POE started to pit you against implosion, Bella and Meransiel, I read through a couple of your games as scum to see how your tone was as a bad girl. And you came across as good scum. For a while, I've thought you were a newbie, but if you are, you've picked up the art quickly. My thought process day one on you was "she's blah blah blahing a lot and playing loose with the facts but she's putting in the effort that I'd expect of town". Once I realized you did that as scum as well, I realized it'd be foolish to take you off the possible scum list just because your tone was townish. Read your play more critically and realized that it's not particularly town-motivated, at least from what we can see so far.

I don't think I'm "planting the idea that you're scum for no valid reason". You're a suspect, and I've deconstructed your posts and found some bad stuff. Thing is, you and Meransiel have both posted more volume than implo and Bella, so by default there's probably going to be more bad stuff to point to in your play than in theirs, even if you're town. So it falls to ratio, and I just don't see all that much "good stuff" coming from you, Amrun. I'll do a read of your play to see what stands out as townish, just as a reality check to see if I'm tunneling.

[MrBuddyLee]

Null for nopoint, because you basically destroyed his logic, which was terrible, and which you could have done as either alignment and had motivation to do so as either alignment.

So you consider this null:

Is iamausername scum? I know you had a problem with the predecessor (nopointinactingup).

I know you guys like short answers with no fluff, so I'll say "probably not".

1) The nopoint wagon came together somewhat easily.
2) If nopoint is scum, coming after me like he did was suicide.
3) I like iam's scumlist and reasoning.
4) Minimal attempts to ask iam meaningful questions are lazy town/possible lazy scum.
5) Two or three of the players I've found troublesome are on the wagon.
6) Bella's and Amrun's overeagerness to hammer despite suspecting/not suspecting nopoint.
7) Scum would have been energized by the mozamis lynch, not demotivated.

[MrBuddyLee]

CES, be a doll and pretend I'm dead already (town flip, shocker!) and scot got killed overnight. I'll stay extra quiet so you can figure out who to lynch next.

ps. It's lynch-or-lose now in the land of make-believe!

[MrBuddyLee]

Meransiel, please talk more about Amrun and implosion. Particularly Amrun. Thanks.

[MrBuddyLee]

implo clearing Meransiel the way he has (and me to an extent) makes less sense unless implo-Meransiel is the scumteam.
@implo, when and why specifically did you shift opinion on Meransiel? You wanted him lynched alongside mozamis, now you're so confident he's town that you don't need to reread him.

I also wasn't able to find anything concrete when I looked for reasons why you shifted on Meransiel. You originally voted him for being illogical, which ain't a great reason.

If you had other reasons, they weren't ever stated, and scum benefits way more than town by being off the record on these kinds of things.

[MrBuddyLee]

Hypothesis:
It's hard to find scum today because town isn't doing much.

Evidence:

* Bella hasn't posted a suspect or voted, three days before deadline. Cleared Meransiel and found MBL townish.

* CES has banged a drum, and won't realize until I'm dead how useless he was today.

* scot hasn't made much of a case on Meransiel, his vote target. I suppose it's not terrible: "But his vote on kunkster is horrible. And just now his vote on MBL. He's noncommital, and just seems to be following people around."

* Meransiel cleared implo, Amrun, won't really say why, suspects Bella, MBL by POE+neighbor role. (Apok, scot, CES also clear by Meran)

* implo has narrowed to MBL/Amrun + Meran/Bella but hasn't given a reason for his trust of Meran and hasn't weighed in on which of MBL/Amrun he finds scummy and why

* Amrun giving/gave some effort but not much supporting detail. "Merensial, MBL, and Bella" then recently "Bella < implosion < MrBuddyLee < Merensiel" We're still waiting on a case from her on her top suspect over the past few weeks. implosion and Bella are entirely POE--she has a town read on Bella and nothing on implo since "null leaning town" March 30th.

* Apok was ok, Oman is promising

[MrBuddyLee]

Meransiel, implosion, Bella and Amrun have all been about equal in their presentation of their suspects. Bella is definitely the slackest. Meransiel has given 2 suspects and 2 clears but not much reasoning. implo has given three suspects but not much effort in narrowing them down beyond "Meran sounds town" "I have seen nothing from Bella that makes me think that she is town". Amrun has said Bella's townish but not posting enough, implo's null, and she seems to be confident in an MBL-Meran scumteam but owes reasons.

Bella+Meransiel:

unlikely

Bella+Amrun:

Amrun's playing for a Meran mislynch and then probably a Bella lynch, and then hoping to out-endgame whoever's left. They disagree on MBL, Meran.

Bella+implo:

implo's busing Bella and really hasn't given himself another option for today. Will need to outlast 2 town lynches after Bella goes. (counter: they're both clearing Meransiel, makes no sense. probably X this combo.)

Meran+Amrun:

Amrun's busing Meran hard, leaving MBL as her only out. If she gets Meran, will have to survive two town lynches to win, with Bella as semi-cleared town. Meran cleared Amrun for no good reason.

Meran+implo:

Both have cleared each other, for unstated reasons, I believe. Both want Bella dead.

Amrun+implo:

implo's making minor waves about Amrun, Amrun's leaving implo as a possible POE lynch after all her other 3 suspects. Would win the game with a 1-2 punch lynching Merantown and Bellatown, as Amrun seems prepared to do. They have opposite-ish suspects.

outside chances: adding apok and/or scot to the suspects list makes my brain hurt. Trusting CES on scot at this point--scot sounds townish enough regardless. scum doublevoter would be evil--day 2 would be Lynch-or-lose.

Note: All Meran scumteams need to get rid of Bella before Meran, and vice-versa, or else they'll have a borderline-confirmed townie in the other neighbor. This makes Meran-Amrun less likely, and Bella-implo much less likely.

Teams that look the best after this: Meran-implo, Bella-Amrun, Amrun-implo

Please comment if you see any holes in this logic or any reasons for additional semi-clears.

[MrBuddyLee]

Team that would be possible after that analysis but if so they're not playing today smart at all: Meran-Amrun.

MBL lynch would be their best case scenario today, and both have been very willing to do that. Bella would be good today for them, but would likely result in Meran next.

Meranscum lynch today would make for a very rough endgame for Amrun-scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

I tired myself out doing all that thinking, so me and MrBuddyLee (my cat) took a nap. I need to review your play (and soon) to see if you make much sense as town. I'm also interested in seeing your Meransiel case, implo's Meransiel clear, implo's Amrun/MBL judgment, Bella's suspects, and Meransiel's reasons for clearing you and implo.

Vote stands, for now. Team analysis is a tool to help narrow possibilities, but I'm not going to vote on it and it alone. That make sense?

[MrBuddyLee]

This makes me feel like MBL is the scum between him and Amrun, based on the soft defense of MBL early on and a continual attack on Amrun for most of the time he was in the game.

You sure you consider kunkstar's "attack" on Amrun to be an attempt to get her lynched and not distancing? Here's a summary of his approach towards town and scum:

Spoiler: A bunch of crap analyzing kunk's attacks and clears

pre-mozamis vig, kunk slapped at Amrun:

Unnecessary apology is unnecessary. To be honest, while I do understand that there are situations where you can't post and such, this apologizing that has been going on throughout the game, combined with the last sentence of the post really stand out as paranoidscum not wanting to get caught out for lack of presence. Looking at your ISO, I see apologizing pop up whenever you make a mistake inthread, so you are very concerned with how you are perceived in game.

I don't have a problem seeing that as scum warning their partner and preparing to bus them if they don't shape up. Could also be scum scoring cheap points on bad town.

This next vote came soon after the mozamis lynch. I went after Apok, CES went after nopoint, implo joined on nopoint, Amrun went after MBL and CES and looked bad, and kunk immediately hopped on Amrun (for trying to tie two townies together).

Vote: Amrun

.
Explain this thought process:

*You state a connection between MBL and CES.
*You then go on to state your scumreads as Apok, CES, nopoint. Two of which come from cases made by MBL.
*You then proceed to argue with CES, but vote MBL, which although you mentioned a connection, never put in your scumlist. wha?

Why does CES's statement make you vote MBL? If you were going to vote MBL, why did you not do it with your earlier connection statements? Clearly if there was a strong enough connection to mention it, then he must have registered on your scumlist, BEFORE you decided to post one.

Scoring brownie points with town by defending MBL and CES--at the expense of Amrun-town or Amrun-scumpartner? Rescinded the argument within the hour. Follow-up case:

My scumread on Amrun comes from this post. I haven't seen anything that says "town" to me from you otherwise. Furthermore your MrBuddyLee push based on the connections seems out of place. If you had made a connection to CES that was based off of CES's actions that are scummy, why did it merit a MBL vote rather than a CES vote? CES clearly would be the optimal route if you had conviction in your CES-MBL connection. But you somehow flip it to support a MBL lynch instead (note here that MBL is a more popular wagon, so I see it as trying to push the MBL wagon sneakily).

Again, he's either distancing here or finding a safe townie to park a vote on. He doesn't really want to vote nopoint:

The nopoint stuff went past my head, so I should probably devote some reading time into him to see people are willing to vote him

and he doesn't want to vote OGML--the likely next lynch after nopoint and probably also town:

OGML's slot fell out of top for me due to the mozamis slot, which OGML's read depended on mozamis's alignment.

Avoiding nopoint and OGML wagons indicates kunk is playing the long game. Buddying with power town, and possibly taking precautions to be on the correct side if a careless partner gets lynched.


kunk said nothing at all about Tuncali/Bella and put her null alongside

scot

,

darkstrike

,

implo

and

CES

. His townies were

MBL

,

PJ

,

nopoint

. His scum were Apok/Amrun/Meransiel.

Hardcore sucking up to powertown and trying to be on the right side of impending lynches, confirmed by his constant defenses of MBL, PJ, CES and nopoint D1. That would explain why he dropped his suspicions of Truant and OGML--he thought OGML/Apok was lining up to be the next lynch and he wanted to be on the right side of it. He defended MBL+CES from the bad Amrun attack, trying to score brownie points for looking reasonable.

Either kunkstar totally ignored his scumpartners (Bella and you) or he attacked them (Amrun and Meransiel). Or one of each. Here's the attack on Meransiel:

Meriansel's vote (on nopoint) is major scumpoints on Meriansel, essentially blatantly joining the popular wagon cause he can.

Despite that read, he leaves Meransiel #3 suspicion and Amrun #1. Something is up there--the suspicions don't jive. When questioned by implo:

That about sums it up. Its not a heavy 'OMG LYNCH NAO OBVSCUM' scumread on Amrun but still enough to warrant my vote over someone else at this point.

tl;dr: Too much WIFOM for me at this point. Did kunk go after sloppy scumpartner Amrun or reckless townie Amrun when she tried to connect two townies? I can see it either way--I would have made both moves as scum.

All I can say for certain is that kunk was defending town while either nulling or taking minor pokes at his scumpartners. I don't see an easy way to tell which is which.

Bleh, stream of consciousness with no real conclusions. Spoilering this post.

[MrBuddyLee]

implosion, you gave out scumpoints and townpoints based on kunkstar's attacks and defenses on players. You gave scumpoints to anyone kunkstar defended and townpoints to anyone kunkstar attacked.

The only flipped player kunkstar really gave an analysis of was nopoint, who kunkstar defended and correctly called town.

Why, if kunkstar showed predilection for defending a townie from attacks, would you presume he'd be more likely to attack town and defend scum on D1?

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm pretty sure we'll be lynching whoever Oman wants to lynch.

[MrBuddyLee]

So Amrun, you're psyched on lynching any of implosion, Meransiel, MBL?

[MrBuddyLee]

Ugh. VOTE: MBL, I guess.

Why ugh? You do realize you have more than one option if you don't like this one...

[MrBuddyLee]

My read of kunkstar makes me think MBL is scum. The defense on him just really makes more sense if he's mafia because of the way it was done.

Can you state any other reason you think I'm scum besides "known scum kissed my ass when I came under bad attacks from two townies"? Not including process of elimination.

[MrBuddyLee]

So you're expecting Amrun to switch her vote from you to me so you can hammer me?

[MrBuddyLee]

UNOFFICIAL VOTE COUNT
meransiel - amrun, scotmany.
mbl - ces, implosion, Bella
Amrun - mbl.
Bella - meransiel.
not voting - oman*2

[MrBuddyLee]

not much choice at this point. deadline may be in as little as 5 hours. i'll try to wake up early to check and see if anyone's interested in switching to amrun.

vote: Meransiel

[MrBuddyLee]

Hi, you just voted alongside the person you think is most likely scum. And you never made your case on him. Doesn't mean you're scum with him, but it DOES mean that you're scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

ps. Thanks to PJ for pulling me into this game.. met some nice people, even if they aren't really much into scumhunting.

[MrBuddyLee]

It's also an even number of players. You easily could have no-lynched. But writing off your vote as desperation is yet another excuse in your long line of excuses this game. You wanted me lynched. Interestingly, you didn't want Meransiel lynched, or you didn't want to be the one who buried him. Could mean he's your scumpartner or could mean you wanted to set his accusers up for tomorrow. But you're almost DEFINITELY scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

ps. implosion, you basically voted me because kunkstar treated me exactly the way you did:

I also don't see the case on MBL - there were 2 things he was accused of, lying and criticizing his predecessor... but the lying was clearly sarcastic and there's no scum motivation for criticizing his predecessor. I fail to see him as scummy.

Truant's sudden change to MBL is disconcerting.

He didn't even read his predecessors history in regards to the game. He read it to see why the player was banned (as I'm sure a lot of curious people would do considering a banning is not common.) He didn't read anything at all in regards to this game, as you have so kindly pointed out.

Truant, why do you trust it(the MBL scumtell) 100% this occasion and not in others? That's very much just using a situational scumtell (similar to the jeeptell in regards to commenting on a power role death) to your own advantage where you see fit. Now that has scum motivation.

[MrBuddyLee]

If that unofficial vote count is correct, MBL will be lynched. Woo.

The most satisfying result I could get from this game at this point would be that you are scum with kunkstar and scot. Good luck tomorrow.

[MrBuddyLee]

ps. Last time I was lynched as town was ages ago. 3/5 of the people on my wagon were scum. You can pretty much guarantee that both scum are on the MBL wagon. buh bye.

[MrBuddyLee]

Go, town! And well played, scum. You almost had us.

[MrBuddyLee]

Scum, would you play differently if you had to do it over? What do you feel was your undoing?

[MrBuddyLee]

Sorry for lynching you, MBL.

I didn't figure I'd sway you with an appeal, so I pretty much had to ignore you and find scum. I also figured it was suicide to go after both Amrun and implosion near the end of D3, but it kind of had to be done. I'm just glad it worked out in the end-- a win's a win.

Actually, you were only the townie who really thought I was scum. Meransiel and Bella seemed to just go along with you and the scum to get a lynch before nightfall. Actually, PJ thought I was scum too, but Amrun took care of him for me. <3