Time Travel Mafia (Game Over)

[MrTrow]

/confirm

Exe: you do realise your attack on GreyICE-'lets avoid careless L-1'-plan is aimed at a player who admitted to need another 27 reads to understand it all

GreyICE: the being able to bring people back-thing is something worth discussing, note however it works both ways

Chrono`s(fitting name btw) all dead mafia on top of every lynch-list for example is indeed a good point (asuming there are no powers to mass-invert vote-lists (very unlikely but by 0.2.1 not impossible))

I`ll read the mechanics another 5 times by yesterday and join the discussion soon after




.....OK i`m back

1.1.3 As soon as 2/3 of the players (rounded down) are voting for "Lynch", or as soon as deadline hits, game enters
1.2 The nomination phase:
1.2.1 Everyone (including dead players) has to send me a PM with an ordered list of who they want to lynch (the list has to include every player, including dead ones).

Yes we vote in public, nominate in secret.
Or as it translates to 'more normal mafia situations': we state 'we`re ready to vote' in public ,but do the actual vote in private.

[MrTrow]

@Exe:

Please tell me I'm not the only one who needs to read the rules another 27 times?

Nah.

He admitted to not fully understanding the rules...... yet(hopefully)
Shortly after he makes a post containing the 'no careless L-1 votes' comment.
You pointed it out as 'can`t happen with these rules'.
What i was trying to say was: the mistake and posts before are consistent (as i read it as an attack, due to the start of that post)



As for the 'possibility to vote in thread'-discussion.

vote: playerX

doesn`t serve it`s normal purpose of actually getting someone lynched.
It still can be used to show your 'top scumread'
If the discussion is about whether or not it should still be called a 'vote' because of this, i`d like to say 'next discussion please'

Off to read a thing or 2 about execution-mafia.

[MrTrow]

I assume temporal parodox is anything too irritating to work out.

or just flat out impossible: like the 'grandfather-paradox'.
an action cannot undo itsself:
I believe (cant find it though) the given example during pre-in was.
You can`t go from n3 to n1 to kill the doc, if the doc is the only reason you survived n2.

[MrTrow]

town-reads:

Spoiler: RedCoyote: for perserving a tactic scum would want to get rid of

We need to include any dead mafiates at the top of every lynching list. It would be incredibly not funny to have a single surviving mafiate go back several days and take out the vig and/or doc, while reviving teammates.

Agreed. Good point in bringing this up, btw.

Mafia would want this tactic 'lost'
+ other breakdowns

Chronopie for bringing up that point to begin with. (altoug it would be nice if he`d sow up with more)

scum-reads:

Spoiler: Kcdaspot: trying to look town (mainly gut)

But basically, if we had a nomination at 4 and one at 5, and we killed someone from the 5, we could potentially flop the nomination, bringing us back confirmed town - or confirm people liars.

After having thought about it, By rule 1.2.1, We need to include any dead mafiates at the top of every lynching list. It would be incredibly not funny to have a single surviving mafiate go back several days and take out the vig and/or doc, while reviving teammates.

we should have a agreed format on how the nominees vote.

The last one 'feels like': 'must come up with usefull tactic'. faked?

Spoiler: Mist: faked memory?

Wait just remembered. Since we are doing votes secretly no RVS.

Unvote

within 3 minutes of her previous post: feels a lot more faked. (purpose unclear though).

Spoiler: Doombunny9: attempting to shut down town-tactic discussion

Question: Does any of this really even matter anymore. I'm pretty sure everyone knows by now that there are crazy lynch and night mechanics so there's no need to keep talking about it and going off on tangents. I understand that it may be confusing to some but after three pages, we should be having some discussion about things other than mechanics. So as of right now I'm going to declare this a RQS to (hopefully) get the ball rolling

Shutting down tactic discussion for a discussion-starter. only purpose this serves is limiting tactic

Spoiler: GreyICE: rolefishing

Should I work out all the evil shit we can do with a time machine and vig shots? Scum could do similar with a time machine and scum shots, but the benefits of having confirmed town "de-flip" seems a lot higher than the "benefits" of having the target of a lynch change.

I assume temporal parodox is anything too irritating to work out.

If you`re not playing under te assumption 'non-trivial time interference' will be worked out(happen) properly, why did you offer to work out such plays for town powerroles as long as they are willing to ask?

Will check the others soon.

[MrTrow]

Erm, where exactly was I trying to stop tactic discussion fully? Tactic and mechanic discussion is fine, just as long as there's enough gameplay discussion and scumhunting to go along with it. At that point in the game people were doing 95% mechanic discussion and 5% scumhunting which is why I tried to stimulate more game related discussion.

Question: Does any of this really even matter anymore. I'm pretty sure everyone knows by now that there are crazy lynch and night mechanics so there's no need to keep talking about it and going off on tangents. I understand that it may be confusing to some but after three pages, we should be having some discussion about things other than mechanics. So as of right now I'm going to declare this a RQS to (hopefully) get the ball rolling:

So tell me what would you expect to provide more 'potentially usefull'-content:

1.
- What is your opinion of policy lynches and Lynch all Lurkers/Lynch all Liars in particular?
- Have you played with any of the people in this game before?
- How active are you?

or

2.
What is more usefull:
- voting in such a fashion that timetravel can`t interfere with the votes(scum-proof)
- or so that we can (confirming liars/bringing back confirmed innocents)

[MrTrow]

They both provide useful content, just in different ways which is why I said both types are fine, just as long as it doesn't get in the way of scumhunting. We can have both of these types of discussion going on at the same time. Using number two as the majority of discussion, how would you expect to catch scum?

Ok lets have a look at your questions:
1. The well known policy-timesink-debate, there will never be a clear answer to this (case by case is usually required, learning personal defaults and wasting time are the only things this question provides)
2. direct counterclaimable, easy to prove information: impossible to lie about (where is the information in this one)
3. given details like 'real life' for example, it`s not possible to accurately predict this, 'this player`s default'-will become clear soon enough, and can easily be checked of it seems off.
So if you want to go from here to scumhunting i see only one thing.
You claim not to act on lynch-all-lurkers alone, (avoiding to make more scum-slips after already having made one, isn`t a policy, it`s a scumtell).
So why are you, someone who doesn`t believe in going after lurkers, interressted in how passive someone has to be to be considered a lurker?

VOTE: Doombunny9
Hmm. that was actually more usefull than i expected.

if we`re to asume these questions we`re not intended to out yourself though, how would these questions lead to 'hunting-grounds' faster than the question that`s actually related to this game.
preferably to an extend it justifies:

Question: Does any of this really even matter anymore. I'm pretty sure everyone knows by now that there are crazy lynch and night mechanics so there's no need to keep talking about it and going off on tangents. I understand that it may be confusing to some but after three pages, we should be having some discussion about things other than mechanics. So as of right now I'm going to declare this a RQS to (hopefully) get the ball rolling:

to switch between the 2 scenarios

[MrTrow]

Sorry for my recent inactivity (a diplomacy-game started somewhat sooner than expected), i`ll try to keep/catch up (long weekend coming/should turn out fine).

You claim not to act on lynch-all-lurkers alone, (avoiding to make more scum-slips after already having made one, isn`t a policy, it`s a scumtell).
So why are you, someone who doesn`t believe in going after lurkers, interressted in how passive someone has to be to be considered a lurker?

I don't really understand what you're asking here, could you rephrase it? I don't recall talking about how passive someone has to be to be a lurker in this game.

@Everyone
- What is your opinion of policy lynches and Lynch all Lurkers/Lynch all Liars in particular?
I also only follow Lynch all Lurkers if there is other evidence to support them being scum

- How active are you?

kcdaspot and I are OBVIOUSLY not scum together. I mean, seriously. It should be obvious.

No, that's not obvious at all. It's perfectly standard for scum to distance from their buddies. It's not "obvious" that people who suspect each other can't be scum together.

I have to agree with this one, i still have to dive into the link between those 2. But that 1 post completely destroyed the 'probably not scum on scum vibe' i had.


I also just noticed this:

And one more thing: This shouldn't need to be mentioned but any killing roles should kill and when docs see a dead power role they should go back in time and protect them for an insta-clear.

Note this requires a doc with a timemachine (with all time travelers being 'some kind of hider' even if they have nothing else, this is quite a powerfull role, thus a big assumption)
Posting this in the 'end of mechanics-discussion'-post isn`t really helping you

[MrTrow]

Ok i`m finally caught up:


list (in order from scum to town):
Amrun: a lot of ' no i didn`t ' isn`t giving a good feel (however this can be the 'just an easy lynch'-part)
things that i do consider relevant though:
- You used the 'why are we both on the scumlist if we`re not both scum' quite often for someone who agrees on the 1-1-tradeoff is a good thing.
- can`t find the clues you left to RC (and scum), care to explain?
- this:

That updated read post bumped smarg up to my #1 scumread, to me implying she knows I will flip town, and at the very least, backing away from her "distancing" theory, her only assertion in the game.

That is rich coming from you, though, Grey. Your more subdued aggression is making me doubt you, but my scumread on me smarg makes you town for now.

P-edit: so it's possible I'm town, now?

- missed the corresponding 'if'?
- How does Smargaret-scum result in GreyICE-town?
- Why do you consider GI town based on the above, only a day after you agreed on 1-1 tradeoffs being a good thing?


Chrono: nothing to add on this matter. Opening post was good, rest is terrible: last chance call seconded (don`t expect it will convince enough people though)
I do have 1 'setup speculation'-question: your assumption- the mafia`s power lies in the number of time-machines is based on 'what'? (i don`t see how having more timemachines makes the mafia that much stronger)
The rest of this 'probable semi-last chance' should probably not be setup-based.


GreyICE: Doesn`t provide much reason behind his reads.
Quite actively avoids giving them actually ('page 4 bookmark it','i have my reasons').
against putting TvS on top 2 (to the point where dayvigging those who disagree becomes an argument).
The point of 'how was it preplanned', is also quite weird as the conflict started in confirmation phase a full day before the actual start of the game.
between 'the joke that started it all' and the actual start of the game, amrun posted 9 times, Kcda 12: it didn`t have to be preplanned.

The last reason to not nominate Amrun/Kcda strikes me as off.
Although the reason is quite good, it does provide a way to keep the biggest discussion completely out of the vote + if getting content out of everyone was the objective, this argument should have been made around game-start.

The 'if all suspects are easy lynches: check again' argument had me sold on town-greyice earlier: but now i`ll have to agree on 'scum with Amrun/Kcda' is a reasonable possibility


KcdaSpot:
Attacking GreyICE for defending him and Amrun, while he`s been going by that defence for uhm... the entire game.
Why?


Ranger:I liked the RQS-shootdown, didn`t see that much else to comment on
The late 'hop on the wagon'(while under pressure) perhaps.


Tragedy: hard to read, some strange choices of words. very small scum-read.
e.g. #65 poor town.


Doombunny: My issues with the RQS are already pretty clear.
However the responses to 'my case', i liked:
- no attempts to ignore the point completely (which is quite easy to do when 'up against' a poster as frequent as myself (i`ll do better from now on) )
- didn`t get a scum-vibe from the 'reactions under pressure'.


RedCoyote: I like the structured aproach and the 'not letting go @ Amrun', the 'burden of hving a title to your name' however makes me want to 'relocate' the null-bar.
Pushing mist towards replacement on the other hand does this (scum would want a townie or 2 not paying attention at all). unless (mist)imag flips scum RC is town to me


Mist:hard(near impossible) to read + Imaginality: the biggest thing to go on is his opening-list, i might get into that list later, but the smargaret-read caught my eye:
- The 'in reading the thread- not looking so good': true (at least true enough to leave as a mislynch), going into iso to clear a (non-obvious potential) mislynch, is not something i would consider pro-scum. So far I like


Smargarat: very little to add here
only the flip-clarification-request:
If that was role-specific, the question would probably have been asked by PM, to scum 'info upon death' is always role-specific. Leaning town.


Ghostwriter: Active hunting + not afraid to admit he`s willing to lynch town for the greater good

Exe:
well what`s there to say?
doesn`t do distractions.
does do scumhunting.

************************************

@Kcdaspot: so you`re considering me scum because i`m not as active a rolefisher as i was in web?

@imaginary:
what`s inconsistent about:

- We have to be carefull with our votes, due to timetraveling scum, these situations (al be it incorrect due to not having completely understood the rules yet) should be avoided.
- If we list all dead(confirmed) mafia on top of every list, we are somewhat protected against mafia-revival tricks.
- Those nominated only have 1 post, this shouldn`t be wasted
calling one of these 3 (in this order, shortly after each other), more likely to be joining in for town-credit?

@GW, i wish, it`s so we can`t redo the days.

[MrTrow]

- You used the 'why are we both on the scumlist if we`re not both scum' quite often for someone who agrees on the 1-1-tradeoff is a good thing.

1 for 1 tradeoff is a good thing if it's extremely likely that it IS a 1 for 1 tradeoff. Two people exchanging posts should not immediately be written off as 1 for 1, as it

So you say, but it has been a mayor point in your defence.

Amrun and Kcdaspot get a pass on activity levels from me.

Why point this out 'now'?
You`ve claimed town-reads on both (repeatedly).
And for the rest of the point (the day1 free pass, for sufficiently huntable content day2), would only work near the start of the day.
You`re not covering your reads on the now are you?

You nameclaimed "The Doctor," but the general assumption would be that someone with that nameclaim would have some sort of doctor type role. No real doctor would do that, which means you just announced that you're not the doctor, removing a layer of WIFOM for scum.

I still don`t like this case.
Why does this 'clumsy-town-tell' keep coming up as a scum-tell?

It didn't feel like he was scouring all corners of the rules for something to talk about.

It feels to me like you would have said this about whoever posted their point after the others. I've seen other reasons to suspect Kcdaspot, but that post isn't one of them.

So are you calling chrono`s point the scummier one?
As for the 'whoever': true on identity doesn`t matter, false on what the point was(total absence of solution) doesn`t. Which of the 2 were you implying?

I agree with the point that GreyIce could have been more forthcoming with 'the why' on a lot of his posts.

However Zinger, your suggestion of 'waiting until it`s you or a compromise-lynch' before you present your case, is just plain [wrong/weird/evil].
'Taking the time to prepare', in your current situation is one thing, forcing town`s hand when you do present your case is another.
I suggest you show your defence as soon as it`s finished, or at least have perfectly clear who the lynch should be, if we are to believe your case.


More will follow tomorrow.

[MrTrow]

sorry i`ve been 'not very alive' for this weekend + off to work now (more will follow later tonight)

@RC: are you really suggesting a 'mislynch to speed things up'?
Given that bringing someone back from d1 is (a lot) harder than later, this really isn`t the time to 'just accept the mislynch'. (not sure there ever it)

If you really believe zinger to be town, point out why.
To me his: 'screw it no-one`s going to believe me anyway' doesn`t help
Also feeling the need to 'correct' the vote-count, to show you`re a replacement, without doing the same for the other replacements strikes me as off.

I can see a reason why these aren`t nessesarily scum-driven.
How far is that 'last chance defence case' coming?
I really would like to see it before nominations

[MrTrow]

My list wasn`t random (it was a little rushed though).
Both amrun`s as grey`s stance on 1v1 tradeoffs seemed off to me, to the point they exeeded my initial case on doombunny(reactions to it helped, on all 3)
I believe(d) Kcda`s and Zingers claim
On top of the flavor-claim, the reasons for the lynch-hammer, the selfvote and the posts before seem to be consistent(wrong but consistent).
If the whole 'town should lynch me for info'thing was a trick not to get lynched(for 1 more day, as there`s no way he would have lasted longer) i doubt he would have selfvoted.

The whole (mis)lynch a VT or (mis)lynch a PR argument: agreed(was thinking the same thing)

As for Kcda`s roleclaim: 1 thing got my attention:
apart from the 'what`s so elite about a 1-shot' bodyguard, all attributes match his initial claim/joke: The Doctor (a regenerative(+/- bulletproof) JOAT with an unlimited timemachine).

[MrTrow]

Completely missed the potential of the claimed role.
I also see very little reason behind the 'required death of 5 townies to be taken out permanently'-part of it.
only thing i can think of is an up to 4-man scumteam and night-kill-immunity.

I was/am thinking about advising against demanding a confirmation-kill tonight as it will get him killed if true.
A powerfull feature of the infinite-timemachine is the whole 1-in-10 chance on a succesfull kill when he uses it to hide, which goes out of the door the second he can`t hide in time because the target time for his 'prove-yourself-kill' is predetermined.

More on this after i get some sleep. (3am)

simpler things:

^If Zinger flips town, I will suspect MrTrow for this post.

care to explain?

@Tragedy(to completely eliminate questions about the umlimited time-machine):
Kcda`s opening claim was: The Doctor (AKA Doctor Who):
- a timelord (human-like lifeform with the ability to regenerate into a new body 'to cheat death')
- carrier (owner?) of the sonic-screwdriver: the ultimate joat tool
- user (owner?) of the tardis: an infinite timemachine (in fact breaking the spring below the 'return button'(which sends it to whereever it just came from) would send it 'crashing' against the very beginning of time itsself)

The thing i was pointing out was, the similarities between his joke-claim and the closing-statements one.

[MrTrow]

To start with the endofday1-question of me.
No i don`t believe the 'the doctor'-claim/joke was a breadcrumb, it was called 'just bullshitting' shortly after.
I did consider the similarities 'at least strange', and now i would like him to clarify why the 'just bullshitting' if it was so similar.

Also your 'just 2 of them', seems to indicate you know there are more than 2 mafia members

@Kcda: your 5-town-kills-required thing makes no sense(even assuming acting in N0 is possible): Zingers nominators would have to fall below amruns (or match based on your choice)
Killing 4 would do that.

Also am i to conclude from it you consider Zinger scum? (your votes suggests otherwise)
As killing Zinger himself would have the same effect.

@mod, i assume by 'first nominee, selects second nominee in case of ties', you select directly from first nominees list(due to time-medling-protection) and there is a way to handle 3+ way ties for first place

Given the 'janitor-action'(yes i believe it was a janitor-action):
I consider GreyIce and Smargaret likely to be town:
I just don`t see why any member of a mafia-faction with janitor-abilities would request the mod to point out what would be revealed on flip.
Also asking the town, to be replaced due to having issues with the game being potentially no-flip makes no sense what so ever for someone who 'knows the cleanup possibilities'
With the second as possible gambit (read: a weaker read).

I`m not yet sure about this though:

Seriously? No flip? Aren't we supposed to get a warning about that sort of thing?

mod: Is this a no-flip game, do you reveal alignment only, or alignment+role when a player is lynched/killed at night?

[Redacted]

@Imag: why point out the PR-Doombunny thing?
No one(well maybe scum under pressure but that`s it) wants to just claim 'an undefined powerrole'.
His 'TownX-claim', read to me like 'ofcourse you`re not claiming scum, no one would', the 'I think its safe to assume that everybody does.' should be enough hint that it wasn`t intended as a PR-claim.

Also you are rating scum`s power by the amount of timemachines they have (i asked chrono, now i`m asking you: how does having multiple timemachines make the team so much stronger?)
More interressting thing in those lines though, you 'believe he`s town' because his statements 'wouldn`t be true if scum'?
- if he`s scum and scum has a shared timemachine, his 'assumption that everyone has a timemachine' would be a lie -> so he`s likely town (no he`s town or lying scum)

[MrTrow]

@Kcda, yes the idea remains the same, abilities to travel to and kill N0 would still make you d1-lynchable. And whether it requires 4 or 5 kills isn`t relevant (the detail that you, called a number for unclear reasons, when asked about it, the reason and the number don`t match)
But more importantly the difference between 4.5 or 1 kill: I find it hard to believe you missed that option, considering your votes indicate you had him as town.
Did you still consider Zinger town when you made your claim?

So you're clearing smarg on basis of asking the mod about flips?

Ok situation: this is an open-flip-game with a janitor-powered mafia-faction, however nowhere in the rules does the mod state the flips are 'normally open'
This can be done for 2 reasons:
1. It was simply forgotten or ,as no rule about it has been stated, the default situation is to be assumed: Which is a lucky break for scum.
2. It was left out on purpose, probably because 'town not knowing flips are normally-open' makes the janitor more powerfull (as in situation 1 but intentional)

The janitor-containing-faction already knows it`s normally-open-flips and by asking the question:
1. They throw out their lucky break.
2. Inform town of the possibility of (semi)closed-flips that no-one was even thinking about.

- How does Smargaret-scum result in GreyICE-town?

> This part shows a minor connection towards MrTrow & Smargaret, since Amrun thought that Smarg attacking GreyICE would possibly not show a scumbuddy connection with each other.

Was part of a 'you`re fighting pretty hard against TvS lets lynch both, for someone claiming to be pro 1-1 tradeoffs' @amrun
The no scumbuddy explenation was given as a response to this question

Mist:hard(near impossible) to read + Imaginality: the biggest thing to go on is his opening-list, i might get into that list later, but the smargaret-read caught my eye:
- The 'in reading the thread- not looking so good': true (at least true enough to leave as a mislynch), going into iso to clear a (non-obvious potential) mislynch, is not something i would consider pro-scum.

> When he's interesting of Smargaret of "Reading the Thread but Portraying Badly" is 'True', which would

leave to a mislynch

towards Smarg. However, why so not-so-obvious potential mislynch? Why did you say this about Smarg instead of myself, whose reading badly here as well?

This wasn`t my read on smargaret, it was one on imaginality:
imaginality-scum could have easily mislynched(he would know it was a mislynch) smargaret, given the 'reading badly' thing:
He however goes into an iso-read and comes to the conclusion smargaret is somewhat cleared.
He deliberately shot down the option for imag-scum to lynch smarg-town: therefore imag=town or smarg=scum

it wasn`t intended as a PR-claim.

Yeah, but, I mean, it is. You agree with that, right?

A probable clumsy claim that could have easily be 'swept under the rug' by emphasising the 'i assume everyone does' instead of pointing out his 'non vanilla setup assumption' that has appearantly managed to sneek by at least you.
But yes a claim non the less.

[MrTrow]

He says they're both town and completely ignores the Amished tell - the only reason to lynch Zinger is the VT thing.

It was mainly gut(as i wrote it last minute, while at a birthday party, so yes i missed a thing or 2) however:

Zinger: either fake claiming scum (for which VT is usually quite a weak claim (as, like you just stated, it made him a safe lynch(the outing the real thing purpose is not nearly as strong as the setup is closed, but still present)))
or a lost townie who actually believed his flip would provide usefull information(which his speach seemed to imply).
I gave him the chance to back up his claim and he did. (he self-voted, if he had saved himself by that stunt and not voting himself i`ll be after him day 2, more likely scenario though, he tries to save himself with it (fails and ends up nr2 on the lynch-block), securing (probably not only) my vote in the lynch-phase)


As for Kcda:
His quirks(pretty much every time i encountered the guy, and we shared a daytalk QT once) and his aspergur`s claim match.
His relucance to reveal this really feels like he would not do that as a scum-ploy. (if he`s scum he`s a quite powerfull one, as either vt or goon he would rather be lynched than reveal)

If i were to review this now:

grey are you trying what i think you are trying?

I agree to what i think this is supposed to imply (kcda correct me if i`m wrong on any of this)
grey`s 'displeasement' with the lack of (at least) 1 flip had better be real.
If at any point his attitute towards the no-flip is faked: his policy-lynch instantly becomes a serious consideration.
(I personally would like to add, if it doesn`t happen and a janitor-like-situation is revealed it gives him some serious town-cred, still not pleased with the tone though)
The first half applies double to Kcda: i won`t discuss it, i will push his (policy-)lynch in every game we happen to show up in together.

Currently he`s somewhat under fire for not confirming immediately: to be fair, multiple players(myself included) have advised against just going for the quick confirmation N1.

2. Say scum go back and nk relevant people to change the timeline so that Zinger is alive again, or say that I get nk'd tonight and a doc goes back in time to protect me n2 so I turn up alive day 4. The mod can't have flipped my alignment; that would break the game - so it must be no-flip. I asked to make sure my logic was right.

Good point, however:
- As every time-traveler (independent of other powers) is basically a commuter, asuming there is a doc is risky.
- Having a single confirmed townie isn`t that unacceptable (claimed innocent, by flipped cop isn`t that uncommon)
- scum pulling a similar stunt a day later to kill this doc n3(or in whatever time the doc would be hiding then) would also take you back into the grave
- a 'hidingtime' of the doctor (n2) would be revealed by that move. (asuming we`re talking about a corpse that didn`t/couldn`t timetravel)
- and last (but not least) during n2 you travel to n5, scum kills you n5(maybe they do this from n2 aswell): result, your corpse travels back(or you have 'mysteriously disappeared') and you are revealed to have died n2, the doc however will have to act n5 to get you back. It`s not that simple.

I see the reasons why a closed-flip-scenario would be 'reasonable', i disagree with the 'must be closed-flip'-conclusion.

Can people really be unlynched with nks?

Yes they can, changing who votes (by changing who is alive to vote) can change the lynch. (which is why you still have to keep sending in your lists after death (rule 1.2.1 and 1.3.3))It can`t possibly bring back zinger (as there is no N0) daykills might (but with the numbers involved are extremely unlikely, his 'unconfirmed alliance'+ best case if revived is VT, makes it not even worth considering).

As for the 'janitored zinger', independent of 'whether he was scum or not', we could really do without that polarisation of the town based on info we`re probably never going to get.

[MrTrow]

@Mr.Trow: Who

are

your main suspects as mafia in this game anyway?

Currently:

1. imaginality:

Seeing him make that assumption, which gave away the fact that he had a time machine, was the main reason why I put him low on my list. (He could be scum, but only if each scum player has their own time machine, rather than say,

just two of them

, or a shared one between them. I tend to think that three time machines for scum would be overpowered.)

He knows there are more than 2 scum. How?
(for some reason that very point was 'misplaced' 3 posts ago (probably clumsy-copy-pasting))

2. tragedy (at the moment, this one likely warrants a reread):
using amrun`s answer to my question as a given at time of the question, to 'make the question itsself look bad' is 'off to say the least'
inquiring about the 'town X' (this is on of those reread ones)

3.Doombunny:
main addition: No one(well maybe scum under pressure but that`s it) wants to just claim 'an undefined powerrole'.

4. Kcda: handling of his 'confirmation' is somewhat off. However he still is confirmable

5. Amrun: Pro 1-1 tradeoff, yet very aggressive still doesn`t sit well.
However 'partially confirming Kcda`s claim' with the 2 of them as unlikely buddies helps.

6. smargaret: climbed somewhat due to the 'no warning inconsistency', but i still believe the 'janitor-scenario' and the downside of requesting in thread mod info on it
still have to read max`s case though

7. Exe: fell off the radar today (disapearing townread): either real life busy town, or scum who 'for now fullfilled the 'too town to be lynched' objective' next posts (or lack thereoff) will tell (for now i think the former)

8. GreyIce: his 'attitude' towards the 'potential flipless' scenario, either:
- True flipless, bored with easy victory scum (yeah right)
- upset townie with lack of info (if janitor is confirmed, buys towncred)
- scum in any way faking one above this one, using such an additute, including a fake threat to replace out + attacking the mod for it: more of a tactic i consider 'policy lynch worthy' (meta-check on this is currently on my todo-list, but for now i assume it`s not the case)

9. Max: So far i like, having chrono`s more important list thing to stand on as well does help a bit

10. RC: (i may have to take a better look at his work but) not much new

11. GhostWriter: nothing new to add

[MrTrow]

quick responses 'cause @work

@tragedy: i asked amrun why smargaret-scum would imply greyice-town. amrun answered, it`s unlikely scum-on-scum. In your attack on me, you use that question to imply(state) a (scummy)link between smargaret and myself, because amrun believes that 'conflict' to be not scum-on-scum.
The not scum-on-scum idea was given as a response to my question. Your read based on the question implies the answer was already known (gathering information couldn`t have been the objective of the question -> the question was a scummy connection). This is simply incorrect.
as for the 'just' in 'just 2 of them' implied x to be greater than 2, which isn`t common knowledge.


@RC: Amrun partially confirmed Kcda`s claim(by means of what appear to be confirmable, even if it has to be done face-to-face, it`s likely to result(worst case) in a 1-1 tradeoff).
Kcda is somewhat high on my suspect-list (note that this list is likely to differ from what i would send as nomination), because he`s far from cleared. His clearing shot (or attempt thereoff) makes him 'not today`s lynch' in my eyes.
As for moving up exe: i`m expecting some content soon. if this doesn`t happen, i`ll have my answer
Tragedy is on (top of) my reread-list, because of well... (i believe exe worded it as 'how to read a VI')

@Amrun: commuting: to not be around at Nx, as such being immune to Nx actions. As time-travel allows you to spend (to use the same example), what would be N2 in the normal timeline(the gap between D2 and D3), in N5, you are 'somewhen' else N2. Therefore most night(2)-actions will have no effect on you. (i`ve called it 'hider like' before due to being targetable if one can guess when you are hiding, I simply took over the commuter-wording(by kcda i believe) because using time-travel for this purpose doesn`t have the 'informative' nature the hider usually has).

[MrTrow]

Few more 'quick i should be working things' (edit i`m going to be in trouble there):

@imag: regarding 'doombunny was outed anyway':
Tragedy had asked 'Town X?' either completely missing the point or rolefishing. (shot down by GW)
Followed by amruns attempt to confirm the 'non specific claim', if it still has to be confirmed, it can still be denied.
I still believe some 'damage-control' was possible if you hadn`t spoken up. That being said, not going for either more information or silently disregarding the issue and move on (wait for nightfall to deal with it), speaks well of you (if doombunny is town).
The fact that you pretty much followed your top 2 scumreads on the matter, not so much (i`ll check what your options were tonight/tomorrow).

as for the 'just 2'-issue: yes it was the main part, especially considering how the rest of it was so much alike chrono`s, i had the mindset of his posts (the either buffed 2-man, or contained 3-man). Seeing a post by someone who thinks/feels the same, yet completely disregards the buffed-2-man option struck me as, scum-knowledge.
Your response, especially including the 'vanilla-less-setup-assumption is unlikely a lie' look pretty good. (i don`t have time to make a list now, but i don`t expect to see you in the top 3)

as for the 'number of scum-timemachines' thing:
true more timemachines do equal more power, however they are nearly the weakest increment in power they can possibly have.
- true only 1 scum having a timemachine makes the lynch of that particular player 'too big a blow' (but a single timemachine belonging to the team solves this issue)
- an additional timemachine to counter a potential vig (not very useful , guessing who will be targeted is good enough, 2 scum as likely targets = scum in trouble anyway)
- a tracker that doesn`t have priority over timetravel, is a pretty useless tracker (in fact, if there is a tracker-like role in here i consider it far more likely, it being able to track to 'when' someone goes(yes i am aware that this is a voilation of 0.2.1))


@RC: a mafia-faction with janitor-abilities would want zinger cleaned up independent of his allignment, considering the impact that action has on the town
- All cases that are in any way dependent of zingers allignment are doomed to fail, as there is no consencus on his probable allignment (nearly half the town is likely to dismiss the case because of that fact alone)
- All time wasted on whether or not he was scum, is time not spent at hunting scum who are alive.
- And last but not least, the chaos of the potential no-flip suggestion. (This last one is the reason why i consider smargaret an unlikely member of a janitor-containing-mafia)
first 2 would work on nearly anyone, but had more effect due to the 'rather lynch a vt than a confirmable pr' debate + the fact that it was D1

@Tragedy: i didn`t completely nullify your case on me.
I was attacking one of it`s points
as for the 'if it`s no-flip, the entire argument =gone'-> true.

@C-worl (and all who continued on it (looks at max)):
post #65:

Basically, it's like a game of Execution Mafia...
Poor town..

I didn`t call tragedy, poor town.
tragedy called us poor town, for the lynch-mechanic being execution-mafia-like.
I pointed out the choice of words("aw poor you" @ little kid 'insert potential evil grin' ) implied her not feeling part of the town while making that post
considering it was still confirmation this can happen independent of allignment (which is why i called it a weak tell)
Or because she simply isn`t town.

[MrTrow]

few questions:

@GW: at the start of day 2, you provided a janitor-wiki-link: do you recall why?

@GreyIce: you`ve listed your top 3, for not providing content a.t.m. and not being one of your 'firm town read's, does this list work both ways, as in may i assume that everyone else has produced content or is one of your townreads?

---------
short reaction:
@Exe:
independent of allignment zinger screwed up, if he is/was town that screwed up so bad he actually believed self-voting to be the 'right move', the mafia would have all the more reason to want him janitored.
I have no intention of risking the game on assuming 'slightly screwed up scum' over 'slightly more screwed up town' especially given his actions as 'a townie that truely believes getting lynched at that point provides most info' were pretty consistent.

@smargaret: About the 'mechanics require flips to be closed' debate.
The 'doc has to be in the same time, so the doc isn`t identified' argument:
True but (as the example below it indicated) that only applies if the ressurected doesn`t have(or at least, confirmed not having used) a timemachine otherwise it`s even harder for the doc to revive someone (the mafia still knows the target time). If the time doesn`t lie in the future it requires a doc with a timemachine (which i`ve already pointed out as unlikely in combination with town-o-commuters).
Bottomline, even with these mechanics, resurrection isn`t as easy as it sounds.
That in combination with 'a confirmed townie or 2 isn`t that rare' , makes the 'has to be closed flip'-conclusion incorrect (at least the 'has to' part)


more in an hour or 2

[MrTrow]

@exe: uhm.. it was me who said that (not imag)
As for 'the self-vote tell': i`ve seen 2 self-votes before (not counting the ones that were unvoted in the same post), both times by town.
The only reason i can think of, why it`s a good scum tactic, is because it denies town information: basically a 'yes i`m scum, yes you caught me, no i`m not saying anything else that may help you locate my buddy'.
Zinger however posted a list of top-x suspects, plus a case on the nr1 after claiming he would self-vote and kept his word.

@GW:
So what has changed your mind?
Between you posting the link and you voting towards a lynch 'mostly because you need a flip'
most of the 'janitor related discussion' was about, was zinger scum or not
and we`re the mechanics a dead-give-away, that this has to be a no-flip-game.

@Amrun: did read the votes would be public, it was stated again page 2, forgot it soon afterwards though.
Why does it matter?
More importantly why is it relevant whether or not zinger knew it? (if i get the thought-process right, 'why would zinger-scum be more likely to selfvote if he thought it would be kept secret?')

ninja-edit:
uhm amrun you did state you left breadcrumbs for RC in particular 'because he was carefully reading your posts'

[MrTrow]

really busy with a project a.t.m.

however i have a question or 2:

Amrun, care to explain:
You (a town-PR) leave breadcrumbs to someone (RC)(considering town wouldn`t want to give scum hints, a probable townread)
Yet you call him out on not pointing out finding your breadcrumbs.

WHY would town-RC (or any townie for that matter) point out having found a town-PR?

Exe: about the motivation thing.
Are you saying zinger self-voted because he was scum (thus his intention was to deny town information)
But when it turned out he(a claimed VT) was on the block(where he put himself) with Kcda(a claimed 'confirmable town powerrole'), he decided to throw out everything that he could possibly have gained by his self-vote in an attempt to lynch the confirmable-power over the vt who has stated his lynch will help town?

[MrTrow]

Kcdaspot's paraphrases of his role PMs fit too closely to mine to be fake. I've seen him fakeclaiming as scum and this isn't it

I am fairly sure amrun said she thought KCD's claim was fake..

Correct:

P-edit: No, kcdaspot's claim sounds exactly like the sort of fakeclaim scum-kcda makes.

Also:

I am a Town Scientist, which basically amounts to a doctor, just with a different name.

i have a unlimited range time machine. thats it.

I can confirm this.

Doesn`t match, whoohoo you can confirm tasky chooses to use the word 'unlimited' for such a machine instead of a range 9 (in-game effectively the same) .
Which (yes just checked, i didn`t do this by head) is pretty much stated in rule 2.1.2.

one more thing(a more technical one):

I can keep submitting actions after I die in case time shenanigans revive me, so I'll keep working for town if I can. Needless to say, if I am lynched, this is highly unlikely to ever happen and I don't see how it could, though I'm not ruling it out.

Yeah right, you don`t see any way how you could be revived?

But it seems that my vote was the tie breaker.

If there is a single player this game that will be revived by accident it will be you.

@Everyone: don`t just look at the 2 on the chopping block a.t.m.
there is a 2-vote difference in the top 5, 3-way tie for second place (we`re talking a november 12th, 1955 scenario here).
I`ll take a look myself after dinner

[MrTrow]

As in who all voted for them?

No as in, time meddling is likely to occur (the mechanics kind of demand it)
The point in time that will be instrumental to what that meddling will result in.
In other words, a minor change in history WILL result in a split in timelines, the relevant difference will start at this lynch.

Although the question in this timeline seems to be amrun or smargaret (a valid question),
my point is, when sending in the lynch-list consider alternate timelines (example, the death of RC N1(which can still happen) would/will result in a 4-way tie for first place(not really as GI`s and exe`s votes would change)), which means any combination of the top 4 nominees can be on the chopping block in alternate timelines D2 with ease (with some more effort GI can be put into the equation as well, although this is less likely to happen).

As for the current-timeline-battle:

Claimed cop (a claimed vig-target) with a 'debatable' investigation (i do see a reason though).

vs

Claimed doc: claimed to be able to confirm kcda`s unlimited timemachine which turned out to be only being able to confirm mods choice of words (which can be done by the rules alone)
stated 'have you even been reading D1' implying there atually being hints to 'other powers'(time machine range check), yet changing it to 'doc' after being pointed out there`s little town-purpose for such a power.

Hmm. tough pick.

As for the rest, well i`m one of m (obviously read ends here)

and imaginality:
Well i had a pretty strong scumread due to the blatant jumping on the first excuse to terminate discussion (without reading it properly: it wasn`t GreyIce it was Exe), hammering based on half-read posts. (even if it didn`t lynch someone, it sure did terminate discussion, resulting in a risky nomination result).
And the attack on amrun`s power (as if he knew it could be a threat to scum, but town can`t possibly know that yet)

Although that last one somewhat took a blow with amrun`s terrible claim, the first still stands.
The possibility of bussing or amrun not flipping do not completely shatter the imag case though.
(I don`t consider smargaret any more likely to be buddies with amrun)

1. Amrun
2. imag
3. smarg

[MrTrow]

I'm kind of surprised to be alive, honestly.

So you`re saying you didn`t time-travel your way out of that one?
Which means kcda is either lying or was blocked?

Tragedy does have a point, your claimed result on ghostwriter only confirms him as innocent, if you are.
and mafia (with a bit of common sense) kills confirmed (town) cop over confirmed town of unknown power.

@Max: no no-lynch:
I do believe in amrun way more likely to be scum than zinger
GreyIce`s point about them being unlikely buddies holds true as well.
Result: no-lynching now will land us in a 7-man-lylo likely with amrun alive. (independent on whether or not amrun was mafia)

I also assume you`re talking about the 'modkill' in that first sentence.
Either way your statement makes no sense.
True smarg-scum didn`t know GreyIce was going to be modkilled (something probably happened tonight(the last drop) as i believe the modkill would have taken place earlier), however, she DID know it before she CLAIMED the investigation.

[MrTrow]

good one: (although i don`t see how having a claimed VT makes the presence of a cop more likely)

Kcda: do you assume you were blocked or do you know you are blocked?

Smarg: could you tell the 'time related details' of your powers? (in addition to previous questions ofcourse)
More specifically(but not limited to), if you believe in the 'Mafia does that, they kill confirmed townies' why didn`t you watch him?

[MrTrow]

@max:
just checking if i got this:
Smarg as a member of a janitor powered scumteam could fakeclaim cop relatively safe if they had just janitored the real cop (as 2 cops in a game this size isn`t going to happen)
as zinger claimed vt, he must be scum or vt, she did not have this advantage, thus the cop-claim would be a huge gambit if scum. (this completely covers what you were trying to say?)

@kcda: tragedy just stated a reasonable possibility (although smarg doesn`t have to be scum for it) , what i want to know is: did you conclude being blocked from not being able to come up with that example yourself, or do have absolute certainty(read: mod confirmation or using your blocking ability against that solution).
Working from the assumption you got blocked, thoughts on allignments?

@smarg:
3 things:
1: so you considered your 'result on GreyIce' more usefull than a 50+% chance on hitting scum?

2: I wasn`t asking about the range of your timemachine(indeed you shouldn`t answer that one), i was asking to what extend the targets of your investigation have to be in the same time as you, for the investigation to work. (as in :i can imagine the 'regular cop investigation' either work anyway or (more likely) have to exist(2.1.5) in the time you target them, for your watch and track abilities this is even less trivial), as (so far) you`ve only targeted casual bystanders, they were confirmed to exist (alive or otherwise) in every night, so you will not provide any information on your 'whenabouts' up until this point.


3:

I imagine scum chose to kill the confirmed innocent instead of me because they think they can convince you all to lynch me.

Calling BS on this one: your result is by no means confirmed innocent if you aren`t, is you are there is no way anyone can convince us to lynch you.
On top of that:

EBWOP ... FFS KCD I'm the COP! I get two investigations (one spent on GW, with an inno result, see the NUMEROUS times I've said he's town), a track, and a watch - my role is named Private Investigator, so I buy KCD's Elite Bodyguard claim. Town, go kill Amrunscum now, please, since I'm apparently dead anyway. Bah. I'll submit actions anyway blahblahblah.

You claimed because you believed kcda`s 'town-oneshot-vig+ targeting you' - claim, yet you completely forgot about it here?

VOTE: smargaret

[MrTrow]

(as i tried to post yesterday)

So you`re saying you didn`t time-travel your way out of that one?
Which means kcda is either lying or was blocked?

I don't find it hard to believe Kcda was blocked at all. He announced his plans way before they happened.

I don`t find it hard either, i`m asking both of them to take a stand on the situation.
3 possible situations(not mutualy exclusive):
1: smarg timetraveled her way out of it
2: someone blocked kcda
3: at least one of them is lying

Either way i don`t believe kcda`s forwardness with those plans was wise

Smarg as a member of a janitor powered scumteam could fakeclaim cop relatively safe if they had just janitored the real cop (as 2 cops in a game this size isn`t going to happen)

Who do you think was the actual Cop then? Zinger or Amrun?

I think there is a misunderstanding here: neither of them was town-cop (they both claimed other town roles), i was requesting confirmation on max` statement that the only way smargscum was a serious gambit unless she just janitored copZinger(Amrun wasn`t lynched at the time discussed), because of zingers` claim he clearly wasn`t the cop.

I`m not buying smargs claim as normal cop-mechanics as well as time-travel mechanics are hard to combine, therefore i asked (hereby again) smargaret to clear up the time travel relevant details of her powers.

1: so you considered your 'result on GreyIce' more usefull than a 50+% chance on hitting scum?

You claimed because you believed kcda`s 'town-oneshot-vig+ targeting you' - claim, yet you completely forgot about it here?

I don't understand either of these points. Elaborate, please.

Smarg had the chance to use her 'watch-ability' on ghostwriter, someone she claimed to have an innocent-result on, thus a confirmed townie, thus a very likely kill
Considering she stated (thus probably believed) her claim would(did) directly result in GW`s death, watching gw last night would give her the name of the one performing the kill.
She used the argument 'i had to know the night involved to do that -> it was only 50% certain to work' to counter my point.
Result: she stated a 50% chance of watching scum kill a townie to be less valueble than a 'normal cop investigation'.

As for the second: I find it weird (to say the least) that a pr completely forgets the reason she full-claimed in the first place.
- KCDA: tonight i will kill smarg and there is nothing i can do about it now
- smarg: ow as i will die tonight anyway... claim
night
- smarg: ow it seems mafia decided not to kill me because they chose to kill a confirmed townie over an unconfirmed town-pr
Not realising the the 'obvious' reason why the mafia chose not to kill smarg (a town vig already claimed to go for that kill) while that reason was the very reason she claimed in the first plase, seems a lot like 'failing to keep track of one`s lies' to me.

[MrTrow]

Where did she exactly say that she had an ability to watch people?

here
2 investigations a track and a watch.

[MrTrow]

(from work post)
@smargaret: Still not answering my question about how your powers work in combination with time-traveling targets?
Please do.
Both your excuse 'i don`t want make it easier for the mafia to locate me' as well as your 'didn`t think about night actions' have already taken a serious hit.
(as in you claimed your machine as well stating submitting your actions will continue even though you were going to die (your claim post) )

About your 'GreyIce is a strong asset' statement:
Are we talking about the same GreyIce here?
The one who pretty much stopped playing due to destroyed motivation, because of the 'no-flip-game' possibility?
The same 'no-flip-game' you claimed to believe in, to which no counter-evidence was available at the time of your investigation?

[MrTrow]

@Jilynne: a 'Lynch vote' is a call to cut the discussion short, please undo asap.

@smarg and c-worl: there are some outstanding questions to both of you, please respond.
At the moment they hold my votes.

@c-worl: 'maybe they too travel by timemachine'?

2.1.1 The only way to travel through time is by using a Time Machine.

this one is just a technicality though, the 'please clear up your power with respect to mechanics' is somewhat more serious.

[MrTrow]

I don't understand what Mr. Trow's asking from me.

You are a roleblocker.
You have timetravel abilities.
The ones you`re blocking may also have time travel abilities.
They may also have other abilities.

Do you block the time-travel and/or the other ability?
In order to block player x on night n, do you have to just travel to or wait for night n.
Or does the other have to travel there as well (and not travel away on the night itsself)?

The detail that (only) your role isn`t flavoured might also need some addressing.

b.t.w. your other block?

[MrTrow]

uhm....

tragedy ....
jilynne.......
Was this the idea?

As in Tragedy you were calling for a full claim from the ones on the block right (not a mass claim).

@Kcda: now that we have both c-worl claims(as well as smarg`s 'i didn`t timetravel'), if your n2->n1 block was yourself to save smarg, please claim so now (if not, don`t reveal who you did block)

As for the 2 roleblockers:
Kcda blocks timetravel as well(explicitly claimed), C-worl doesn`t (at least claimed to assume such): (at least), one of them is scum.
I think it`s quite clear which one.

As for smarg:
- claiming cop who doesn`t know what her powers do with respect to time travel
- called her results confirmed innocent, while 'being lynchable' herself
- 'forgot' how she was 'supposed to die' last night, any truely surprised player (town) would have looked into this and found the obvious reason
- all her 'results' are dead
- investigated the 'least motivated player' in order to get him the 'town leader position' instead of watching her 'confirmed townie who she suspected to die' (the 50% excuse isn`t enough to talk your way out of this one)

Lets just say: i see why no one counterclaimed.
(i think we got 2 scum on the block here)

[MrTrow]

@smarg:
1. Your word against his.
2. Was suspicious of you before, it clearly was the only way to 'prove' his suspicion (should he flip town roleblocker you`ll be on top of everyones list instantly)
3. Good thing you picked up on this, so you could do better ..... ow wait
4. Hey a point that does hold, well 1 out of 4 is a decent score....

As for your remark on the bomber-claim, i believe it.
Combined with the town requirement to have a player alive to win, it makes sense for such a role to exist.
A scum alligned bomber, would result in a scum-1-shot doublekill (i believe this was already stated as overpowered) unlikely (requires too many scumreads to be town)

@max:
D2 nomination list:

1. imag
2. amrun
3. smarg
4. c-worl
5. exe
6. max
7. tragedy
8. rc
9. gw
10.Kcda
11. Zinger
12. GreyIce

[MrTrow]

@jilyenne
Details please (same i`ve been asking of everyone: how does timetravel influence your power() )+ does your ability do exactly what the name you`ve given suggests, wat that the name your role was given (stuff like that)
I have some ideas about why you shouldn`t bomb amrun, but need this to confirm.

[MrTrow]

Ok about the 'bombing of amrun':
It is a sure hit (due to kcda`s roleblock) (will prove him a liar otherwise)
However, with amrun dead N1, the D2 lynch will be smarg, imag or me (if i read things correctly, most likely smarg (otherwise we get some info on which people have some explaining to do))

So jilynne if you do suspect smarg (like i do) then you should consider bombing amrun, because if those suspicions are accurate she`s likely to be lying about the 'no-timemachine' thing as well, and as such will be able to dodge your bomb.
@max: yes this means that 'following your plan' will result in the death of 'one of your townreads', why did you consider it good enough to ask someone to lay down their life for it?
also why do you suspect amrun to flip this time, while she got janitored before?

To those wondering why i was against this in the first place: i hadn`t checked the 'numbers 3' on the lists involved (even forgot my own).

@RC, what is so hard to accept about (effectively) a 'vengefull townie with initiative'?

[MrTrow]

@RC by the (off) chance this is not a case of ' poe`s law ' either explain or 'really don`t'.

plan to consider for tonight:
kcda: don`t waste your block just yet.
jilynne: bomb amrun.
everyone: handle tomorrow based on the additional information of jilynne`s smarg(or maybe my) flip, maybe even amrun`s one.
kcda: go back to tonight to block (and thus revive) jilynne + new D2 lynch if the flips call for it.

There are a few risks to consider on this one. (the plan is not final but definately something to consider.)
Some responses please.

[MrTrow]

@kcda: my point about: if jilynne suspects smargaret, bombing amrun might be more effective as amrun dead during D2 would make someone else (as i see it probably smargaret) the D2 lynch.
If smargaret is scum, there is no reason to assume she was telling the truth about having no (access to a) timemachine. therefore there is very little reason to assume smarg-scum would be unable to dodge the bomb by timetravel.
Also it produces up to 3 flips of which up to 2 are reversable


@Max: why 'should imaginality be the lynch'?
scratching amrun + amruns vote would indeed make him the one with the most votes, however:
the top 2 with the most votes will be on the block
and the 3rd (non zinger/ghostwriter) on the list of everyone voting amrun will also become relevant.
this includes my smarg-vote: probably putting her back in the top 2: given the responses to my request to consider the entire top 4 (or better said lack thereoff) gives me the impression nearly every lynchlist had amrun/smarg/zinger as top 3 (not that much response was possible but still: i consider a 'Non-amrum D2' smarg lynch more likely than an imag one)

Good argument about the janitor though.

@Jilynne: Someone instrumental to the plan is against it at the moment, if this doesn`t change before nightfall do not execute my plan.

[MrTrow]

@jil:
tell everything that happened which isn

[MrTrow]

ok another attempt:

@jil: what happened each night, why do you think(or preferably know (make the difference between the 2 very clear)) your role changed (it`s obvious how you know, i`m asking how it happened)
+ explain all info you have(especially the 'something else against town') , to the extend that town loses no info what so ever, should your next post be the last you`ll make this game.

In other words we`re asking for a full-claim.

As for your 'i`m a powerrole', ah duh you were spotted targeting someone.




As for why i didn`t respond sooner:
i do have a question or 2, but want the fullclaim out there before asking them (for what i believe to be obvious reasons)

[MrTrow]

@smarg:
There are no new questions in my post.

Asuming you did actually read that post, i expect you to explain why you are against my plans in your (would be) lynch-vote-post

[MrTrow]

My post was:
- i want some more discussion (have some points for this myself)
- discussion at the moment is halted, due to waiting on jilynne`s fullclaim: as it should be.
- fullclaim request supported (indeed with 'ow missed you guys wanted to know that'-protection

Yours:
- agree with 'ow missed....'-protection (formulated in a way one skimming would agree to the entire post)
- stating to go directly against my 'discussion after claim'-'plan' (i know it)

[MrTrow]

another 'second attempt'
.. i know it`s not much of a plan, but it`s there.

Lets continue this discussion (or not) after the claim.

p-edit:

@kcda: good point except for 1 minor detail:
The ones we want answers from most, are only allowed 1 post.
It`s way too easy to 'deny town information' in that stage.
final statements should be used for unexpected-lynch-targeted players 'last minute information conservation' only.

[MrTrow]

Trag is town for knowing the town wincon

Pointing out stuff like this is why discussion should be halted while waiting for the claim
AND
why limiting the times the top 2 suspects can post by premature lynchvotes is a bad idea.

Am i the only one who might want to test/respond to, the claim?

[MrTrow]

Kcda:
It wasn`t trag that i was after:
I was trying to say this
(yes i know i`m referencing scum here, but also someone considered among the better IC`s)

p-edit
@jilynne:
As far as i`m concerned the game is on hold until you

claim everything you possibly can

if this means repeating things stated before so be it.
(didn`t want to do this but) Another 'i don`t think i should reveal WILL be taken as a final response' .


@max/smarg: please hold that discussion for a moment as well.

[MrTrow]

Quick from work thing:

...Then Zinger isn't town...
...What.

Why do you believe self-claimed-scum exe`s replacement when trying to push exe`s case (the zinger-scum one, the one that was under fire at the moment exe replaced out without saying a word about it)

as for the claim: more thoughts about that will follow (hopefully tomorrow, probably after nominations) but 1 thing is for sure:
There is NO WAY someone is mod-provided with the names of the scumteam AND given a town-wincon(choice or not) (ok except for 1 weird 'mostly mountainous' case)

RC will not be lynched. Not negotiable.

why?


situation N2:
claimed cop.
soon to be claimed roleblocker (who will flip scum shortly after)
conflict: roleblocker claims having blocked the cop, cop claims result.
why would a mafia-alligned-roleblocker NOT block this claimed cop.

[MrTrow]

uhm max: no it won`t increase the numbers (at least not those after tonight).

Kcda: it seems i misread your last post before the lock, what did you mean?

Jilynne still hasn`t provided us with all info she has available (probably zingers role) even more likely something else as well.
the excessive amount of blocking roles also isn`t helping (not to mentioned the just plain impossible mechanic claim)

I agree on the 'chopblock is no reason for RC to claim'-thing.

[MrTrow]

a confirmed townie who may or may not have followed the game
instead of
a likely townie who has expressed to have lost the patience for this game.
With very little impact on history.

Kcda: clearly your word is final on this one.
But if it`s 'just sitting it out' i`d rather have you get a confirmed VT to do that for you.

as for you 'last post' that`s what i thought you meant, it just doesn`t seem to match your vote. (not that nr2 has that much impact today)

[MrTrow]

Ow it was clear jil was scum before that claim, no one will agrue with that.

Now that she has denied us info yet again (for the last time), i believe it`s time to reveal some info:

I have some low friends in high places (or the other way around, either way have access to the goon-role-pm).

yesterday`s lynch of c-worl over smargaret to me was decided on the fact he paraphrased the goon character description(taking over time)

most of jilynne`s claim is true:
- there is(or at least was) a mafia-alligned player outside of the 'normal team', all the 'normal team' knows is that such a person out there
- the (lynch-)janitor ability was indeed 2-shot (it was also factional)
with jil knowing this i assumed she had access to the goon pm as well. which means she could have told us more:

- mafia has daytalk
- they share a timemachine, it cannot be used for individual powers
- the range of said machine is 3
- the 'there must be a player alive' part of town`s wincon doesn`t apply to the mafia one -> if everyone dies: mafia wins
- they do have a copy of the VT-role-pm

I need one more piece of information though, C-worl, and I promise to stop bothering you about it. Does your role PM mention anything at all about time traveling, especially in regards to scum. Just read it over very carefully for me and let me know.

This is what i find 'noteworthy' about rc`s actions this game.

Statements like these seem to me he`s looking for his scumbuddies.
However with jilynne`s answers so far i do believe her to be mafia`s 'friend out there'. (with RC feeling the need to breadcrumb/ask for breadcrumb C-worl RC is pretty much cleared)
However should jil flip goon, RC will skyrocket on my list once more.

[MrTrow]

ebwop:

@Kcda:
i haven`t checked GW`s activity these days, but in my opinion:
confirmed townie > strong townread.
(semi-)fresh look on things hurt scum.

I see no reason why you shouldn`t go for the save, but if you do , don`t take any relevant info with you.

[MrTrow]

I indeed was a death-miller and i don`t see any problem with it (then again, i`m not that used to closed setups(and related site-meta) yet).
Story-wise (which is always the first thing that draws my attention when time-travel is involved) it made sense and a 'downside' to the information i had.

If i wouldn`t flip scum i probably would have revealed everything immediately.

The terrorist flipping Casual Bystander however with having most players (not: smarg,kcda and RC) having mod-confirmed that Casual Bystanders are not-mafia-alligned
might a different story, true the terrorist isn`t actually a casual bystander but still. (somewhat corrected by the detail the 'lie' hurts both factions)
To me the most telling thing is complains about the death miller, but not about the 'undecover 2' ability?, stuck i site-meta much?


As for the 'red-herring for mafia', it was 1 of the reasons for not claiming immediately.
Trying to get lynched by small majority d2/3 , get janitored, hoping the 'link up ability'(if any) was in the main team, keeping the claim options open was the main idea at that point.

When amrun seemed to be suggesting being able to detect the range of one`s timemachine(at least that`s what i made of it) it seemed like an interresting combo(read a new reason not to claim), as with my info it can detect scum(keeping it hidden somewhat longer could probably help me check amrun as well)
It`s also where i screwed up with the assumption that the scum-pr couldn`t have a personal timemachine.

Smarg, i assume it`s clear now why i considered you cleared for not believing in the janitor-situation, but turned around when you emphasised your believe in no-flip while discrediting my defence of you when the no-flip-scenario was about to be disproven.