Time Travel Mafia (Game Over)

[Zinger2099]

Confirmed. Have yet to give the thread a detailed once over, but I did skim through making sure to read RangeroftheNorth's posts as well as any particular ones that stood out. I'll say this much, he sure did a good job at shooting himself in the foot. From what I can tell he seems to be in most people's top 3 suspect list (I define most as more than 50%). I can only hope the town judges me by my own performance and doesn't scrutinize me for my predecessor's.

In any event, I just took some medication to deal with a cold and it is making me quite drowsy. I will come back and try to make sense of things when I am more coherent. In the meantime, if anyone cares to point out specific points that they would like me to comment on, I will try and do so when I get back.

[Zinger2099]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Oh well, at least Grey is judging me by something I said as opposed to something RotN said. lol. Thanks Grey.

[Zinger2099]

Why with fire? That's just overkill.

Anyway, re-reading the thread in more detail now.

[Zinger2099]

Ranger of the North. Page 4. Bookmark it.

@Grey: Can you explain the significance of this post please?

RotN has no posts on Page 4.

[Zinger2099]

LYNCHCOUNT 1.11 (unchanged)

LYNCH (6/8): GhostWriter, imaginality, Exe, Doombunny9, Amrun, RedCoyote
NO LYNCH (7): MrTrow, Chronopie, smargaret, Tragedy,

RangeroftheNorth

Zinger2099, Kcdaspot, GreyICE

Deadline for Discussion Phase is 30.04.2011, 19:00 CET.

Fixed!

[Zinger2099]

I'm on page 10 of my detailed re-read (is there a way to have more posts appear per page?).

So far my biggest scum-read is Chronopie (now Maxous), for basically the same reasons GreyICE said in post #226. Also, Post #226 is the most town-efficient post I have seen from GreyICE thus far.

@GreyICE, is there a reason you post in such a confusing manner when it's clear you are capable of sensible posts as well?

I can't fault kcdaspot for the Doctor Who reference. If I had been around in the joke phase I probably would have done the same thing. His posts since then however haven't seemed overly productive and actually resemble (most of) GreyICE's posts a lot. They are short, don't explain themselves, and are sometimes even nonsensical. Not sure what he hopes to gain, could be scum.

I understand Amrun's reasoning for having a scum-read on kcd despite not necessarily agreeing with it. I have gone back and forth from thinking Amrun town to thinking Amrun scum. Currently Null-read.

Doombunny's questions could have been innocent, or they could have been designed to kill relevant discussion. Leaning more towards the idea that there might be an alterior motive behind them. Slightly scummy for now.

Town-reads on GhostWriter, RedCoyote, and Exe for using logic+scumhunting.

These are just a few reads off the top of my head. Will put up more later.

[Zinger2099]

Because his supposed stances are inconsistent.

kcdaspot and I are OBVIOUSLY not scum together. I mean, seriously. It should be obvious.

If people are going to pick one or the other of us as scum, okay -- even if it's me. I understand it. But both of us? No. That needs to be extensively justified, if so.

I once played in a mafia game where two players got into such a heated debate with each other that it became impossible for anyone to see them both as being allies. When we lynched the first guy and he flipped scum, the second guy had an impenetrable pair of town-pants. Guess what? That second guy was the last scum, and they won the game thanks to some superb WifoM.

I make it a policy to never assume that just because two players are at odds, no matter how 'natural' it looks, doesn't guarantee that they both can't be scum. Your continued insistence of this fact gives me the impression that you are more concerned with establishing "we can't both be scum" than you are with finding scum. You just skyrocketed to the top of my list.

[Zinger2099]

Nice ass-umptions exe.

Amrun-scum would be concerned with guaranteeing that Kcd and herself cannot both be scum because it would mean that if one of them flipped scum the other would look like town. I thought I had explained that pretty well.

[Zinger2099]

I called them both scum. I simply called Amrun slightly more scum because Amrun is the one that is slipping up more in my point of view.

[Zinger2099]

Is that cuz I am preaching both you and kcd are scum?

[Zinger2099]

Grey I expect an answer to my question.

[Zinger2099]

However by the way, 'shot himself in the foot' is not saying your replacee was 'scummy'

To be clear, I never did say that I thought RotN was scummy because I never once felt that he was scum. It would be illogical to get a scum-read on someone I know is town. I simply pointed out that he didn't do me any favours by getting on most of everyone's 'to lynch' list.

The irony is that in pointing out this fact I shot myself in the foot much worse than RotN ever did. Oh well, live and learn. My experience playing this game is from a different forum (I am new to mafiascum, I usually play on Px2), and the meta there is pretty different.

[Zinger2099]

I've never heard of this amished tell before now. I'd say that has something to do with the meta if it's something that is used here but not elsewhere.

[Zinger2099]

Earlier:

Whenever someone's scumreads strongly resemble 'the easiest players in the game to get lynched' there's a fucking problem.

Recently:

Hey look guys! There's the guy who replaced in for someone we mostly thought was scum, and he acknowledged that RotN didn't play well too! If there was an '

easier

' target for scrutiny, I'm not seeing it. obvscum-obvscum-obvscum.

lol. I am amused by his blatant disregard for his own logic. GreyICE needs to take his own medicine.

[Zinger2099]

So greyICE and Exe can't read. I told you both I am not fully caught up yet.

When I replaced in I quickly skimmed the entire 18 or so pages of the thread. I read every post by RotN and every post by Tasky in detail, only glancing at the others. As a replacement, answering questions about the person you are replacing is usually a big deal in the meta I am familiar with (is it not here?), so it is important to get a good sense of where your predecessor stood in his opinions regardless of your alignment. After that, I started reading the thread in more detail, but it is slow in coming because I have a terrible head-cold (referenced earlier). I don't which is worse, the headache from the cold or the dizzying side-effects of the meds I am taking for it. In any event, reading the thread is taking me approx 3 times as long as usual (not that any of you would be familiar with my usual speed at reading but that's neither here nor there). In my last update I told you I had only gotten as far as Page 10 (Exe's case on Doomsbunny doesn't even crop up until Page 16), so why don't you both give me a chance to finish catching up before you chastise me with insults about my reading skills.

In the two days since I replaced in I have already given more attention to the thread than RotN has given it since it started, so don't tell me that I don't read any better than he has. I have made stances on certain players, commented on my feelings about certain arguments, and am trying my best to contribute and scumhunt despite being 10 pages behind the rest of you and delirious with a head cold. I'd like to see you do better.

I am currently at Page 16. I am taking a break now because my headache is making the room spin. I expect to be fully caught up by later tonight or tomorrow at the latest. When I have done that I will have a much better sense of my reads on certain players because my information will not be out of date.

Most suspicious of: (in no particular order)
Amrun
Chrono
kcd
greyICE

More to come.

Footnote: GreyICE STILL hasn't answered my question. 3rd time pointing this out and still no comment? Can you read? Apparently not.

[Zinger2099]

Yeah, GreyICE you're not helping your case.

And you still haven't answered my question.

But whatever. You're obviously one of 'those' types who can't stand having discussion in a civilized manner. That's fine, I can play that game too.

[Zinger2099]

What? Your question as to when I called your predecessor as scum?

Yes, I'm going to throw it people's face tomorrow when you flip red. Now lets make a case on RotN's obvscum replacement.

This is not an answer to my question.

I want to know why you were so obsessed with Page 4. Answer it. Stop dodging my question.

[Zinger2099]

Yeah, I get that. I want you to explain yourself since RotN didn't even post anything on page 4.

[Zinger2099]

RotN did not post on page 4. GreyICE claims there is something he did post on Page 4.

Conclusion: GreyICE is batshit crazy or can't read or both.

Unfortunately, that's not much of a scumtell.

[Zinger2099]

matched only by your epic dodging.

[Zinger2099]

You did not answer my question at all, you evaded it. All you said was "you mean the post where I called RotN scum? Yeah I bookmarked it for future reference."

That doesn't answer what post you were interested in, it doesn't answer why you were interested in it, and it doesn't even explain the fact that you seem to think RotN posted on page 4 when clearly no such post exists.

Of course I have ignored everything else you've said because I haven't gotten a proper answer to my first question yet.

[Zinger2099]

*shrugs* Call it OMGUS all you want. I could care less that you want me dead. I am pissed because you refuse to answer my question.

I would say you are pretty dense. How much more clear do I need to be?

[Zinger2099]

Alright, so you made a gut-based prediction about RotN and bookmarked it so that you could later play the "I was right!" game for town-pants, assuming he(I) flip scum.

Now how hard was it to just say that?

You still haven't told me why you thought RotN is guaranteed scum by page 4, but whatever, I doubt I'll ever get a straight answer out of you.

[Zinger2099]

Took you long enough. If it's going to take a page and a half of badgering to get you to explain yourself every time I have a question, this is going to get really frustrating really fast.

[Zinger2099]

I don't believe I have deflected, lied, or thrown anything really in your direction. I might have misrepresented you once, but that is debatable. And none of it is OMGUS.

I think you're full of it, and are guilty of just about all the things you're accusing me of right now.

[Zinger2099]

There is a difference between flailing like hell and getting pissed off at someone for not being direct with his answers.

In any event doomster, you're not clean of suspicion yourself.

At this point I have come to terms with the fact that I am going to be on the chopping block along with some other chud. I am building my defense case now, and plan to release it when I get my "last post".

Very little can stop me from getting on the chopping block now, but if I play my cards right I can get back off it with my head still intact. Sitting here arguing with GreyICE wasn't helping me build my cases against others, and makes me wonder if he did it just to distract/infuriate me. Oh well. It worked.

Probably not going to say much else now until my last trial, so that I can astound you all with my case of why you must keep me. Anything I say before that will just be twisted into something to be used against me.

[Zinger2099]

Because nothing I say now will change anybodies mind.

@Maxous you misunderstand me. I feel that the mafia is twisting my words to make me look like scum (because I'm an easy target what with all the suspicion going around). I'm not going to give them more fodder for the fire. I want to make sure that the next things I say of my defense help the town, and if I reveal them too early it will only make me look bad/help scum. I am looking at my weak-case and all it says to me is "trying to save yourself zinger". People aren't going to listen to what I have to say right now because anything I say will be twisted to look like a self-preservation tactic, something I am trying to avoid. When I bring forward my case I want it to be in such a way that makes it clear of my motivations, and I don't believe I will be able to do that until I am an inch from lynchdom.

[Zinger2099]

Because anything I do comment on gets the 3rd degree because I am seen as obvscum. Thus nothing I say will be helpful to the town, it will be misconstrued and turned against me and by association the town.

Let's say I make a convincing case as to why imaginality is scum (I actually believe he is probably one of the most pro-town players we have here right now, but this is hypothetically speaking), not only will my case be disregarded because everyone thinks I am scum, but to make things worse people might start seeing my points in an opposite light. All of a sudden, people give imaginality undeserved town-pants because the obvscum said he was scum. You see where I am getting at with this?

If I say imaginality is town and people think I am scum, people will think imaginality is scum by association. If I say he is scum people will think he is town for the same reasons. Basically any points I make right now will probably have un-desireable effects and I don't want to send town in the wrong direction just because they think I am scum.

[Zinger2099]

On the other hand I could say the opposite of what I mean in a reverse-psychology attempt at sending the town in the right direction, but what if they take me at face-value and believe me? Then I have to explain how I really meant the opposite of what I said.

Either way I look at things, any case I make right now will be detrimental to the town. I don't care if I get chastised for it, but I do care if my points are used against my team. Right now I am probably scum's best friend, because anything I say is ripe for the picking when it comes to building false arguments against town. I don't want to give them that opportunity.

[Zinger2099]

I didn't think about it that way because for that to happen as you have described I would have to die first, something I am not at all happy with because of the repercussions that would have for town. But I see your point. Alright, you've convinced me. I will put up my case before the hammer vote falls, but let me make sure it is properly constructed first. In it's current state, it wouldn't make much sense to anybody but me.

[Zinger2099]

Then what about scum twisting your words into scummy ones?
That's how much misunderstandings would suddenly hop in and get town lynched right off the bat.

I was talking about what happened if he were to die and flip town, if that's the case, even if scum were to twist his words to make them look scummy, the town would still know that they were coming from a town PoV and would look at them like that. Even if scum are twisting around Zinger's words, he shouldn't be hiding and refusing to do any scumhunting since well, if everyone were under fear that their words would be twisted around and acted the same way, we wouldn't get anywhere.

I don't really feel as if I understood your question so if this isn't what you were asking, could you please clarify?

@Kcda- I still have an unanswered question (Post 428- What about posts 404 though 420 makes Grey town incarnate) and I'd like to see a response to Amrun post 493

I have played in a game where a townperson said x and died. Another townperson said "what does he mean by x?" and a scumperson replied "he means y". The town then played the rest of the game assuming that y was irrefutable truth because a dead towny had said so, when in fact that dead towny had said x, not y.

I just got home from work and am going to bed. My cases/POVs will come when I wake up, hopefully.

[Zinger2099]

@GreyICE I am neither Mason nor Vig. I'm just a Casual Bystander.

I had this huge post typed up about why everyone shouldn't lynch me and as I reached the TL;DR part at the end I came to a realization. Everyone

should

lynch me.

Really, if you think about it, even though I am town my lynch will probably lead to the most info to be gained out of every player because EVERYBODY has made some kind of opinion about me. Looking now at everyone's cases against me, I can already see how my lynch will lead town down the road to victory.

So I've scrapped my defense. I can still win as town even while dead, and if my death brings about a win there is no better reason to die. So for that reason, I hammer myself!

VOTE: LYNCH

.

With my 'last post before death' I will put up cases against my top 3 suspects and why.

[Zinger2099]

@Amrun

, for the record, I was on LA ever since I voted: Lynch, long before I was even able to make said 'last words'. I have a life outside this game, and since I suspect you do as well I trust you can respect other people's needs to put their lives first. I'd like to know what going LA has to do with being scum, or perhaps you are just mudslinging here?

Alright all, since you have pretty much made it clear I am going to hang today, I have decided that instead of doing whatever I can to dissuade you from making that decision, I will focus my efforts to try and help you catch scum from beyond the grave. I promised a detailed read and you shall have it. Here is my #1 scum suspect, and the case against her:

Amrun

(AKA super scum supreme)
-His first serious FoS/vote was on Kcdspot for rolefishing (post #16)
-Claims masons with GreyICE (post #28)
-Is at first in favour of voting for a lynch early, later claims he misunderstood the duration of the nomination phase (post #79)
-Claims he understood kcd's Doctor Who joke only to later say he didn't get the joke at first (posts #83 and #115 respectively)
-Seems on the fence about kcd (Post #123 and others), maintains that what kcd did was scummy but isn't sold on him being scum
-Goes back and forth with Exe and others about his focus on kcd's joke, appears to backtrack a little under pressure
-Argues that kcd is distancing, not buddying (post #159)
-Points out that she and kcd cannot be on the same scum team together (post #163)
-Says it is obvious she and kcd cannot be scum together (post #238) and even suggests choosing one of them as scum but not both
-Backtracks to say that she and kcd only can't be scum because she hasn't seen a case to prove it (post #242)
-Says no one is more scummy than kcd (post #248)
-Thinks kcd is scum not for the joke but for the several things he's done since (post #253), but hasn't provided any examples anywhere
-Says Doomsbunny is changing his stance (post #279)
-Hints that she might be immune to the lynch today (post #282)
-Asks RedCoyote to stop being so condescending (post #282), later is very condescending towards Zinger (me)
-Isn't sure how to explain her statement in such a way that doesn't make her and kcd look like scumbuddies (post #284)
-Asks why she and kcd are both on GW's scumlist (post #308), and we all know that why me = fry me
-Like's imaginality's replace-in post (post #348), could be buddying to a towny
-Goes back to calling kcd scum (post #384)
-Claims that she has other suspects than kcd (post #390), and has named names but has not explained her 'other' suspicions
-Jumps on GreyICE's Amished vs. Zinger bandwagon,

"lynch zinger with fire!"

(post #448), condescending as mentioned above
-Insists that zinger (me) committed Amished's scumtell in the worst way (post #472), I did not*
-Admits to having had Amished's tell applied to her when she was town and didn't know not to do it (post #478)
-Finally states her full case vs. kcd (for the first time as far as I can tell), and it boils down to only three small points, two of which are a direct reaction to her (post #556), looks more and more like a pre-planned scum vs. scum.
-Again says that I committed the worst case of Amished's scumtell that she has ever seen (post #569), I did not*
-Says my self-vote is the most damning piece of evidence yet (post #599)
-Says that I am scum, and somehow links it to my having gone LA before making this last post (post #637)

*Amished's Scumtell involves expressing that you would feel that the person you replaced was scum if not for the fact that you knew he or she was town. What I did was say that RotN didn't do himself or me any favours by doing the things that made you all suspicious of him (post #442), which is not at all the same as saying that I felt he was acting scummy myself. Perhaps what I said could be considered borderline Amished's Scumtell, but hardly "the worst possible case of it".

Amrun Conclusion:

I believe Amrun is scum because she has gone to great lengths to detail her animosity towards Kcdspot which in the end boils down to three simple points, two of which are things Kcd did in direct response to Amrun's own behaviour. This appears too well contrived to me, and the whole Amrun vs. Kcd argument really does look like a manufactured scum on scum dispute. Also, Amrun has repeatedly appeared to be on the fence about points that she was at other times sure of whenever she was under pressure regarding those points. She balked at RedCoyote's antagonism towards her, choosing to label those comments as condescending and making it a personal issue rather than a game issue. Later she acted in a similarly condescending manner towards me. This shows me that she is not against being condescending, just people being condescending towards her. I define that as a scum-tell because if she were town she would shrug off the comments while scum secretly feel like they deserve it because they are the bad guys, and usually that's why they will take things personally. Amrun has repeatedly stated that she has suspicions on multiple people but has rarely given cause for her suspicions. Even her biggest case was weak in the end. Finally, the person she ultimately became most suspicious of (me) was an easy bandwagon that she jumped on in response to a case GreyICE had made. From there on she practically ceased scum-hunting altogether, instead filling her posts with condescending comments like

"Lynch Zinger with fire!"

and asking why we are bothering to wait when we know Zinger (me) will be today's lynch. She knows how to play this game and has played it well, but ultimately her attempts to appear town are just that: they appear town, until you look closer and see the ruse behind them.

TL;DR

, Amrun is scum because she has contrived a fake argument between her and scumbuddy Kcdspot, because she has a tendency to go after easy targets, she doesn't actively scumhunt or build strong cases, she contradicts herself, she's condescending, she balks under pressure, and she has on more than one occasion shown a desire to rush the lynch. There can be no doubt about it, Amrun is scum.

Secondary Suspects:

(in order of suspicion)
Kcdspot - The biggest contender for scumville, I am confident that the Amrun vs. Kcd arguments were scum on scum
GreyICE - Claimed masons early with Amrun, and has since been more or less on Amrun's side during a number of the biggest debates

Town Reads:

(in order of trustworthiness)
imaginality - Actively scumhunts, and the fact that Amrun buddied up to you gives you very strong town vibes
RedCoyote - When you put pressure on Amrun, she balked and appeared to be genuinely uncomfortable under scrutiny, ++town points

I have null reads on everybody else to varying degrees. Here is my list from most scum to least scum:

1. Amrun
2. Kcdspot
3. GreyICE
4. smargaret
5. Doomsbunny
6. Mr.Trow
7. Exe
8. GhostWriter
9. Tragedy
10. Maxous
11. RedCoyote
12. Imaginality
13. Zinger (me)

I don't really have well built cases to go with most of the people on that list which is why they all received 'null reads' as opposed to scum or town reads, but there are reasons why each are where they are (even though some are just 'gut' feelings).

Well, I won't go on boring you for much longer. As a vanilla town I don't really have a problem with my own lynch, in fact I encourage it. Short of lynching scum, town has the least to lose by hitting a VT, and once my alignment is confirmed I hope that it will allow many of you to look at my posts in a new light, and perhaps even pave the way towards catching those vile scum buggers. That really is the best way to die as town, with an accusatory finger in a deathly rigor pointed straight at scum. Good luck to you town! I hope you catch them all without many more loses on our side.

P.S.

In case anybody missed it early, a 'last words' post isn't complete without a proper claim. As I said above I am a vanilla town, otherwise known as a Casual Bystander in this game. I'm basically a witness to these horrible events and I am trying to help town solve the mystery behind them. My only strengths are my freedom of speech and my vote to lynch.
(The above was obviously paraphrased because direct quoting is against the rules)

Adios everybody! It's been fun!

~Soon to be lynched Zinger