Cowboy Bebop Remix [Endgame]

[Jahudo]

It would be nice to lynch a scummy player on their bounty day, although the bounty rewards could help scum as much or more than town. But I have also recently become paranoid about scum fake counter-claiming characters so I wouldn't be against nameclaims early on.

@Seraphim: You don't think the mafia has safeclaims? Or are you just wondering aloud what the official mafia names are? Ignore this if its related to stuff you don't want to reveal.

So Vi we meet again. Wait a second, Vi... vi.. vicious !!!

Vote: Vi

[Jahudo]

I am thinking ahead to a potential lylo situation. UT knows what I'm talking about (Seinfeld Mafia), but he may not be as paranoid as I am

[Jahudo]

I assume we would be massclaiming at lylo for information sake.

[Jahudo]

Grey just said three people were waffling, and I don't see evidence of it from anybody. And is that a real suspicion on Rhinox or just random vote lulz? I can't tell.

[Jahudo]

@GreyICE: how the fuck is that post waffling?

You

actually

feel

somewhat

more comfortable with your vote

however

?

Put an extra qualifier or two in there, I'm not sure it has enough conviction behind it.

I'm not seeing it. What about your other waffler claims?

[Jahudo]

@GreyICE: how the fuck is that post waffling?

You

actually

feel

somewhat

more comfortable with your vote

however

?

Put an extra qualifier or two in there, I'm not sure it has enough conviction behind it.

I'm not seeing it. What about your other waffler claims?

Nice clear posting:

I feel comfortable with my vote.

What you did = someone not all that comfortable with what they're saying.

Deciding to take my comment as a serious accusation rather than an offhand comment about the sentence?

Overdefensive.

Jahudo = good wagon.

So is Toasty.

What I did? Or do you mean Seraphim? You are confusing the heck out of me right now.
I want to know why you think Seraphim's post is waffling. How do those qualifiers lack conviction to you? I think differently.

"Actually" looks more like a "Yes" than a conditional term here, because nothing is being weighed against the actually that we can tell. "Somewhat" is just a degree of confidence which is understandable at this point. But "however" doesn't really look like anything one way or the other. I don't see any indication that it is conditionally applied to something that would let him retract his opinion. Therefore I don't know what Grey is on about calling it a waffle.

A more important question to ask is why Seraphim is more confident about his UK vote. @Seraphim?

----
I agree with Kdub that scum likely have a safeclaim, and even if they didn't there could still be characters that look bad and are town bounty hunters / look good and are scum. And I agree that Sera's speculation looks uncharacteristic, but I don't see how its suspicious. Maybe Sera knows some inside information. I think his talking looks innocent right now, not malicious or opportunistic in any way. So if he talks at some point, I guess that means he thinks its the right time to do so. Until then, I guess it isn't and like UK I don't see the need to press him about it.

---
@ToastyToast: Do you think scum wouldn't have safeclaims in a theme game like this? Why not? I find it strange that you townpoints to whoever has Andy's role just like that, because I don't think it has any alignment indication at all.

[Jahudo]

I still don't get how his post was waffling or scummy. :/

[Jahudo]

@UK, Vi:

Today's bounty is likely town, as he is a minor character and a rival bounty hunter.

I don't understand his logic, so it peaked my interest.

----

He put like 18 qualifiers on it. It's a sign that you're distancing yourself from your own damn position. "Well perhaps he mighta sorta maybe I feel better however kinda."

I still disagree with your claim. The words "actually" and "however" that you originally italicized don't seem to distance from his confidence in any way that I can read. How do you see otherwise? Yes he did say "somewhat" too, but I don't see how that is unusual. It tells me he still isn't too confident in UK being scum, which is expected at this stage in the game. Your original reason for suspecting him still baffles me.

Also, GreyICE, what about Toast, man? I'm sure you had like eighteen scumtells on him maaaaaan.

I can understand why Lady L would vote for this one. I can't remember exactly where I've seen the "But he did it too" tell used before. Its not one that I think about, but it sounds like a tell some believe in. So while I disagree with Lady L, I think her involvement on the wagon is townish. And asking for a claim? I actually don't think scum would be so bold to do that on page 6. So I think she's town.

I see there's alot more case points on Seraphim than the qualifiers part. I have class now so I'll finish this up tonight.

[Jahudo]

Moar Seraphim case points

I'm backpeddling? It was an offhand comment. Your post was scummy.

One scummy post does not make you scum, as I will happily link you to game after game where townies make perfectly scummy posts.

Does one scummy post count as a serious accusation? Taking just that part of the post I can understand anyone (Sera included) in thinking they are two different levels of seriousness. Offhand comment sounds more like an inquiry where you don't know if there's anything scummy going on yet.

But in Grey's case he does explain how his offhand comment carried some level of suspicion. And also in post 105 he said he liked his vote, so I don't think he was trying to backtrack.

As scum, you feel yourself being wagoned, and then switch your vote to the next largest wagon to try and save yourself.

You haven't even given me a reason why you think I am scum.

Well Sera did give the reason of not liking Lady L jumping onto a large wagon without a reason first, and asking a claim in a situation where he thought it should be asked.

They were both playing in the moment so Lady does give reasoning within minutes. Would she have delayed it if Seraphim wasn’t online at the time? Hard to say, and that’s the essence of his defense. That she voted and fled. But it looks more like she was adding pressure while she wrote up more posts. Which is understandable.

And she isn’t wrong that her wagon was large at that moment, so Seraphim was jumping onto a large wagon. I still have trouble deciding what the difference is between OMGUS used by scum and town. I think they are both driven by an emotion of being pressured whether you know they are right or wrong.

But I’d ride some woolongs at Gordon’s casino on both Seraphim and Lady Luck as town. (no reading into flavor here)

I’m caught up and will talk about other people, scummy people in my next post.

[Jahudo]

Thoughts on some players:

UK - Is not yelling at me so she must be town But yeah, lots of questions and opinions all around. I don't see anything opportunistic and she is one of the stronger voices in the game so hopefully that's good. Town.

---
Vi - Similar to UK. I don't mind that Vi holds back opinions at points waiting for other people to post more. Her stances on Sera and Lady look in order, nothing contradictory or questionable as to why she'd take that position. I'll have to look into Grey again because on my first read I didn't feel he was ever scummy. More like a player that could use some elaboration. Anyway, Vi town.

---
Kdub – Actively commenting on a lot of various events and people looks good, its not just about who he’s voting but I think he’s also dedicated enough focus in Seraphim too. Says he doesn’t like how Seraphim reacted to LL’s vote. I can understand how that OMGUSy tone would make someone happy with their early gut vote. It is one of the parts about the wagon I’m less sure about, though I still thinks its more likely null. Kdub looks pro-town.

---
Rhinox – Takes stances on the big discussions which is good, but he doesn’t say why he finds Grey worse than Sera. Most of his explanation part is about Lady, even though his attention is more on Grey right now. So I’m wondering why he finds Lady delusional and Grey scummy? Lean town.

---
Toasty – He’s trying to balance finding both Sera and Grey scummy, which is alright because they aren’t both connected to the cases those players have for each other. But I wonder why Toasty thinks that Seraphim tell (of keeping back flavor info) is a good one. Or why he thinks Grey is testing out various lynches. I didn’t get that conclusion.

---
CES – I don’t know what he’s thinking for the most part, but he probably knows what he’s doing with his votes. The line about Seraphim pulling a quote out of context was original content. I guess I just wish he had more. Null read unfortunately.

---
Antitown – Nothing interesting here. Null.

---
Nacho – I find it concerning that after 16 posts he hasn’t given any opinion on Sera or Grey. Is it not important to you Nacho? Lean scum.

FoS: Nacho

---
Untrod – I don’t understand how he goes from “I can get behind a Seraphim lynch” to “I’m not for a Seraphim wagon at all right now”. He kept most of his reasoning hidden and its just not enough to say that Seraphim looks like he is genuinely scumhunting. There’s no mention of the points on the case, especially Lady’s who he seems to like in this game so far.

His Toasty vote looks weak because he didn’t initially know the extent of Toasty’s voting patterns (which look average). I also don’t understand this “Indicating” scumtell at all. How is that different that what UT did himself in 155 (unvoting and saying he could get behind a Seraphim or Toasty lynch)?

It looks the exact same to me, but the difference is when I read UT’s ISO I see more evidence of testing the Seraphim wagon, because he decides against it without fully explaning his actions. Toasty and Antihero look more like safety picks. UT reads scum.

unvote;
Vote: Untrod Tripod

[Jahudo]

@Jahudo: Why did you leave LLD, GreyICE, and Seraphim off your list? Its a very fair post, just curious about that.

Because I had already given my reads on them when I talked about the Seraphim wagon earlier. I said I think both Lady and Sera are town. I disagree with Grey's case and Sera's case against Grey but right now the only concern I have about him is this one you just brought up. I do wonder why he faded into the background after being more aggressive before.

Untrod – I don’t understand how he goes from “I can get behind a Seraphim lynch” to “I’m not for a Seraphim wagon at all right now”.

I'll reread and figure out whether I like a Seraphim or a TT vote moar.

By rereading the game more closely. Lrn2read

The fact remains that you did like a Seraphim lynch in the first post, and not in the second. It wasn't a matter of deciding you'd rather vote Toasty, that would be understandable. But you said Seraphim was "pretty townish". That is a dramatic change in such a short time.

Without giving good reasons why you changed your mind, I suspect that you were testing the waters of another Seraphim vote. So why didn't you think Seraphim was doing good scumhunting before? Or was he only doing good scumhunting in the 3 hours between your two posts?

[Jahudo]

And I agree that Sera's speculation looks uncharacteristic, but I don't see how its suspicious.

Maybe Sera knows some inside information.

I think his talking looks innocent right now, not malicious or opportunistic in any way.

Why would you ever bring up something like the bolded up?

Because its possible I have inside information too, but I think its much more likely that I have flavor that is not meant to be read into. Maybe he's in a similar situation, I can only guess and feel that he is not scummy for bringing that stuff up.

[Jahudo]

I see what you mean Rhinox, but I just don't get to the same conclusions about Grey. I think he could be town and I feel good about my UT and Nacho suspicions now.

- The waffling still looks wrong, but I can see how Grey's case against Seraphim started off small and escalated. The waffling was only the first part, a smaller accusation. He escalated it by saying he didn't like Sera's reaction, so at that point it stopped being only about waffling. He didn't harp on it.

- I don't see anything scummy with Grey saying he plays gut and logic, and people think he isn't. Both comments sound like bravado I guess is the word. Trying to be a poor man's Fate. Grey's style is off-putting, but maybe it works for him and he knows what he's doing. I don't get an indication its alignment-motivated in any case. I feel like this is his way, so its null.

- The bizzare scum to town read changes are still a question. I would say fair enough if you don't want to say what makes someone town, but people have to say why they stop finding someone scummy. Maybe he got my name and actions mixed up with Sera's.

[Jahudo]

Again, there needs to be more game reading here, Jahudo.

You know, like reading this post. I don't feel like digging for the Toasty one at the moment. I'm sure you can find it with a bit of effort.

I know, I saw that post. What I'm saying is I think there is reasoning to think it was an honest mistake. There was that one Grey post that was basically a response to one of my posts and he acted like he liked the vote on me. So I thought at least somewhat he was mistaking me and him, but I wasn't sure if it was every part or not.

[Jahudo]

I'm not buying the chain lynches as a scum tell in this case. Toasty gave at least one individual tell on Seraphim (softclaiming flavor knowledge) and Grey (not acting logical) to find them suspicious. To me it looks like he is analyzing their interactions as a secondary piece of evidence to think its not scum on scum distancing, and since he finds them both suspicious he isn't concluding town on town, so it falls to one or the other is a possibility. I can see townies making all those connections.

Now Grey is calling Seraphim town but on the condition that Toasty is scum and wouldn't distance from a Seraphim buddy like that. That's closer to chain lynching because he his Toasty case with an associative tell instead of an individual tell. If the case was just that, and if Toasty flipped town first Grey could easily find Seraphim scum again. Or if Seraphim flipped town first he'd still have that original reasoning on Toasty.

@Grey: How is that original vote any different than what he is arguing for Toasty? Right now I don't agree with your case and am more wondering if you could have made it as town or not.

After the vote Grey does go on to find Toasty suspicious for individual tells; arguing Toasty is misrepp'ing Grey's player reads and once again I don't think Toasty is wrong here. Grey had given those reads throughout the game. Just because it wasn't in his latest read list at the time doesn't mean he could easily change his reads, especially with his playstyle where its hard to tell what is changing his mind. One minute somone looks bad scum or bad scum, another they are in the pool of top suspect #3.

So Toasty looks alright. Grey could be scum. I need to consider Grey's possible motivations as hypo-scum for switching from Sera to Toasty. Kdub makes convincing points about Grey not worrying about self-preservation or staying on the largest wagon. Maybe scum would consider the Seraphim wagon stalled or in decline. What is the vote count now?

[Jahudo]

I see that Vi has a UK case, I will look into this next when I get a moment. They both have looked town to me, so I will see if this changes anything.

Um, when did I give those reads throughout the game? Did you read my reads list where I said Rhinox was town? And explained why he moved when he started posting more content? You are in there? I mean what?

But what changed between Rhinox saying things that rubs the wrong way, to Rhinox town? And when you call CES terrible town or scum are you trying to say he's good vig fodder?

As for Seraphim, if Toasty flips town, I really don't have a desire to lynch him. I tracked down other town games with him in them. He's about this 'levelheaded,' toxic, and abrasive in those. Meta? I don't think so. I can see a town motive, at this point, for what he's doing. I think he really is trying to generate reads. And toasty? He's a scumread that shines like the eastern star.

Ok, is this a new opinion? I didn't see you talk about this before this post.

[Jahudo]

Thanks Vi. That post 274 "Basically in your shoes last game I player with her" is confusing me now that you say what it is referencing. So she is implying Grey is scum, but in a way he probably won't understand? Has she talked about that qoute lately I can't find it if she has.

I think I see what you mean about UK not giving an accurate or solid stance on Grey. This opinion:

I'm not convinced of Grey scum yet. I'm merely slightly more suspicious of him. Seraphim is far scummier in my eyes.

And this one that comes later on are hard to understand.

The first part of Grey's ISO looks solid and I don't get the suspicion. Maybe it's later stuff. I just can't think right now...

UK, how did you go from finding him "slightly more suspicious" (I guess then neutral?) to not knowing where the suspicion is coming from?

------

-Why is Jahudo still voting for me? Not real protown to keep your vote parked here.

You brushed off my case by saying I wasn't reading. I responded with this post: 296 with some questions. I am still investigating you because I still think my case is valid and good, and that you are not taking it seriously. You are the scummiest person in this game IMO.

------

The only one I'm truly interested in right now is Jahudo, and he'll be getting lynched today. I'm just waiting for him to make a couple more #455s before the games begin.

What do you mean by 455? Are you trying to say its scummy / that I am not active enough / that my post was full of townie truth and awesomeness. (Hint: Its the third one).

NINJA EDIT: Oh hai UK. Maybe I shoulud read that post you just made.
ANOTHER NINJA EDIT: I knew Fate was scum!

[Jahudo]

Grey should not be lynched, and I still don't see a compelling reason to vote Seraphim or why he is connected to Rhinox. Has that Rhinox theory been around long?

Most likely because I'm not a bounty hunter. Since the Red Dragon clan are not bounty hunters either it seems highly likely that bounties grant powers to town and town alone.

You are guessing all of this right? Like there is nothing in your role PM about a reason you don't have a bounty reward.

@Jahudo: I was dumb, mostly. But at the time, I basically had only read the first part of his ISO and it bled town. Then I actually READ the game today. Yeah.

What about the earlier quote. You did say Grey looked suspicious, but not as much as Seraphim. Right? Was that being dumb, mostly? I still don't know if you had been thinking about something in particular there or what.

[Jahudo]

Vi, I've flipped flopped on Grey more than once. It shouldn't be a shock at this point. To explain fully, my latest thoughts have been that Kdub makes some good points about Grey and I don't like lynching claimed investigation roles. My primary suspicion that Grey was changing his CES read for no discernible reason has been put on the back burner for now.

Lady Luck, can you point me in the direction of Rhinox-Seraphim buddy tells?

[Jahudo]

At this point anyone who hasn't softclaimed looks odd

@Jahudo: It was dumb that I thought GI was town, even with the slight suspiciousness.

Okay, I think I know what you mean now when you were talking about the first part of Grey's ISO.

------

Jahudo, do you mind if I do that when I have a machine that can quote multiple posts and make long walls?

No hurry. Basically what I can gather is that its in Rhinox's posts and not so much Seraphim. Its how Rhinox is calling Seraphim town many times, and how you don't think he's adding it naturally. I was wondering if you can pick out each of those times he says it. Because right now I can see where he's said Sera is town as a part of saying something else, typically about the voters or Grey. Like he's adding new opinions instead of repeating the same point in an unnatural way.

[Jahudo]

It all depends on the overall power balance. 1-shot investigate and miller can co-exist easily if the mod thinks the town is sufficiently balanced in terms of numbers and maybe other roles. Some mods don't want people to depend on cops, so they throw in a neutralizer.

Red Dragon doesn't have to mean scum or miller. This mafia could be the Bebop crew like my game was (though doubtful since Fate read that game and would want to take this theme and do his own thing), or the Space Warriors, red eye smugglers, Piccaro's gang, the Europa syndicate, Whitney and his associates, Londes as cult?, etc etc. (Why yes, I am a huge nerd)

[Jahudo]

You mean the flavor to start the day? That scene is directly out of Ballad for Fallen Angels so I'm thinking later scenes will just be snippets of other sessions for flavor sake. We'll just have to see.

But this:

The Red Dragon Clan has made a move on the opposing White Fang Gang.

Is clearly talking about Vicious. I wouldn't think it would be that easy to lynch Vicious though.

[Jahudo]

I mean, its not as good to assume Vicious is scum and lynch Sera for that reason.

[Jahudo]

All of this flavor speculation looks misguided and terrible. Role information could easily be full of flavor that is meant to draw the player into the show, which is not necessarily the game. That is how I interpretted my role PM and how I interpret pretty much every theme game role PM I ever get, ever. Seraphim votes based on ideas about Red Dragon being mafia are a joke.

I think Vi has gotten too used to getting passes early in the game. This sub-part level of scumhunting at this stage really makes me question her alignment.

unvote;
Vote: Vi

[Jahudo]

Vi, my role heavily implies Vicious is scum. But I don't trust it because it looks like flavor. I can't imagine you having anything in your role pm that is so clearly not flavor and so clearly can be trusted as accurate.

@Grey: Does your power give a result of "Red Dragon" / "Not Red Dragon" or something like that?

[Jahudo]

I believe Sera's current claim for now, because that whole lead up with Vicious would be unnecessary as town or scum if his claim / safeclaim is Spike.

@Seraphim: Do you know what happens if Vicious is NK'ed?
I think we should keep you around and look for mafia, and try to make sure you don't vote for Vicious (sorry )

@Vi: What else is in your role? Is there a bounty reward, any mention of vicious? How is red dragon brought up? Like the flavor part or the "this is what a miller role is" part, etc?
I distrust your claim.

[Jahudo]

I'm waiting Nacho. Blind me with glory

jahudo, you still haven't answered my question...

Sorry. I was still thinking it over when I asked him to confirm what results he actually gets. His answer makes me question his claim.

The issue I am having right now is if the disconnect with my role information, and Vi and Grey's information, is if this is just a flavor misunderstanding or if there is something that doesn't fit with our respective roles. I probably will full claim today and make sense but I want to see if there is grey area first, or if this really can be a "me or them" situation.

[Jahudo]

I am Julia, Former Red Dragon Clan.
I do have a bounty reward. Per Bounty, I can Hide.
No mention of Vicious, but there is a mention of Spike (flavor).
As a Former Red Dragon Clan I am assumed to still be part of the RDC and thus investigate as Mafia.

I claim Gren. I am a miller with a bounty reward of not being a miller.
No mention of Red Dragons, but there is a mention of Vicious from the flavor talking about the Titan War.

I've been debating on whether it is okay for two identical power roles to have a different amount of useful information. Your role explicitly says Red Dragon is mafia, whereas for mine to be about the red dragons I'd have to assume ... that Gren was being accused of being a spy for the red dragons during the titan war even though Vicious was the one who testified against him so who is associating Gren and Vicious for that, and why do they think Gren is working for the red dragons in the first place? Should i just assume all that then? If all you knew about the character was "framed by Vicious" is that a strong enough piece of role information to know that Vicious is mafia, and therefore the mafia is Red Dragon? I just don't know.

I've also been wondering about how many mini's have used multiple millers. I can't think of any, and it would make Grey's role even more useless if my role did show up as red dragon. I could also see Fate wanting to nerf a cop though.

[Jahudo]

Grey isn't making sense to me either. I don't know where to begin.

[Jahudo]

My reward was to not be a miller, so I hoped to get it honestly. And it doesn't matter when you claim miller, whether your first post of day one or anytime after that: people still see that as the most obv thing scum could claim. That's why town gets that role I guess. But two townies? I'd like to see that balance out with a 1-shot cop.

[Jahudo]

That changes things. It doesn't matter if we keep Seraphim off a Vicious wagon apparently.

If Seraphim gets back to L-1, I'll hammer him or Vi can if she wants to. That way the lyncher is no longer a distraction and we flip a claimed miller as early as possible.

[Jahudo]

unvote;
Vote: Seraphim

[Jahudo]

Hammering claimed third party is a scumtell now? Ok. I'm still waiting for the glory. Its not too late Nacho.

[Jahudo]

Which UK post are we talking about again?

So Grey lied about the cop part when it was really a hider part? I need to check his ISO again. Did he ever mention there being more to his power that he was keeping secret?

---

Nacho, fortune smiles upon you today. You get to present an actual case against me. Can't wait!

[Jahudo]

Thanks. Quoting for reference:

GI is town, much as I hate to admit it. I can say this with certainty. GI, why don't you try hard? Your entire game has been lackluster.

If it's not clear,

I am 100% sure GI is town, from his claim

Some Jet - Alisa flavor connection?

[Jahudo]

Oh yeah Fate did ask for that pretty specifically. Though if Grey did reply with that response I wonder if there would have been a problem. Would Fate have made Grey give him the full information or not.

Vi, what are the odds of two hiders? Now that 1-shot cop is revealed fake I think its been raised from nigh-impossible to nigh-improbable. I have enough doubt that I don't want to vote for you unless I also had a feeling your posts were scummy now. And I don't know what to think about flavor being important anymore. UK said it was and she was town and perhaps I should listen to her.

I'm still suspicious of UT. Anybody with me? Antitown?

Vote: Untrod Tripod

[Jahudo]

That still doesn't account for the fact that Grey CCed Vi's bounty reward...

Good point.

[Jahudo]

unvote;
Vote: Vi

I can't get past Vi being counter-claimed twice. I'm guessing Vi wanted to take advantage of all the flavor enhancements of this game and play aggressively. Or maybe Vi really is Vicious, we'll find out in a moment.

=====[]

[Jahudo]

Vote: Untrod Tripod

Is UT getting replaced / prodded?

-----

Your theory is interesting Grey, but you are only saying that I would have acted that way as Vi's buddy. Why wouldn't I have acted that way as an actual miller? How is it more likely that the steps I took (voting Vi before the claim, reacting to Seraphim's claim, arguing over the flavor validity, etc.) had a scum perspective rather than a town one?

[Jahudo]

Ok

[Jahudo]

unvote

since he's getting replaced.

[Jahudo]

there's one person in the thread with a solid case on him. He hammered day 1 cutting off the case.

A case I never heard, so even if I was scum how would I know if it was good or not? And remember I kept asking him for a case. I really did want to hear his case because we've played in enough games together that I wanted to know what he was thinking.

You were counterclaimed by Vi. YOU WERE COUNTERCLAIMED BY SCUM

What are you talking about? I claimed after Vi and showed the holes in the miller flavor. You think it was some kind of elaborate plan from the start for two scum to claim the same role and show where each other was not believable?

Jahudo's actions in the thread are terrible. His waffling is terrible. It really feels like he didn't want to lynch Vi day 2 and his expressed logic today is bad. He claimed miller after I claimed investigate. His short circuiting discussion on day 2 was bad. His hammer day 1 was bad.

So day 1 I bussed Vi and day 2 I decided to try and save him? How are you able to stand by both of those empty theories? It is not the most likely scenario and you aren't even trying to prove it.
I didn't claim because of your investigation. I claimed because I was already voting Vi and disagreeing with the theory that red dragon = scum. Maybe she claimed because of you, but I claimed because of her. All the posts point to that, no post points to your theory.

His short circuiting discussion on day 2 was bad. His hammer day 1 was bad.

An action I would take as miller, you haven't provided any reason I can't be miller or that I wouldn't act that way as a miller.
I hammered Seraphim because he was scum. It was a no brainer move that should be considered null.

[Jahudo]

Sup reck, I’ll summarize for you:

Day 1
GreyICE: I’m a 1 shot cop that finds Red Dragons as scum.
Vi: I also have role information that Red Dragons are scum [/softclaim]
Seraphim: No, I’m Red Dragon and I’m a townie.
Jahudo: You guys are reading into this too much, my role PM has flavor that might not be reliable.
Everyone: Let’s lynch Seraphim because he was already acting weird.
Vi: Oh, also I’m a miller because I used to be Red Dragon.
Jahudo: Counter-claim. I am a miller and there’s no mention of Red Dragon.
Seraphim: Ok, I am actually a third party lyncher but I am not mafia!
Jahudo: Hammers Seraphim, who flips third party lyncher.

Day 2
Everyone: Lets lynch either Vi or Jahudo obvs.
Jahudo: Hammers Vi, who flips mafia and Seraphim's lyncher target.

----
What is a motivator? I looked it up in the wiki and still don't understand.

[Jahudo]

Vote: CES

Just look at his ISO. That should tell you plenty. (lol, ok seriously)

He's played under the radar and made little connections. He never explains his votes, which is a good strategy as scum because it would allow him to stay voting if one reason proves out to be not true. This is probably something he does often enough to become his meta though, so the more indicating part of his play is that he ignored Vi completely.

As grey suggested, voting a near confirmed scum would not make anyone look town. Its a no brainer decision for either alignment that Vi would get killed. But why would CES not acknowledge that the no brainer decision had to be made? There are far too many holes in his thought process that could have a scum motivation for him to live much longer.

[Jahudo]

Vi was a likely enough investigation that not claiming miller would've been a definite misplay for hypothetical Vimillertown. Even disregarding that, miller breadcrumbs wouldn't prevent me from voting a guilty.

That is a very small part of the conversation. What about the when Seraphim claimed lyncher and argued that Vi softclaimed his role? What about when Grey revealed he was a hider? People were calling Vi scum and you said nothing, not town or scum. Did you have a null read on Vi after all that?

This is probably something he does often enough to become his meta though

This is not pro-town curiosity. It's not a lot of effort to look at another game I played and glance at my ISO.

You assume I didn't look into your past games? I did and I saw one where you were town and played just like you are playing now, but I haven't looked into all of them so I said its probably something you do enough to become your meta and you could easily be this way as either alignment.

I don't care that you voted me without a case, but I am suspicious that you side-stepped over the claiming discussions like you actively didn't want to get involved.

----

@Jahudo: why the switch from UT/reckoner to CES? Has reckoner said anything to change your mind?

There is still a lingering suspicion but I can't question Untrod anymore which I felt I needed because he didn't post much after my first time voting him. When this happens and a player replaces out, I typically unvote and see how the replacement plays on their own, then I reassess my read on the playerslot.

----

Namely, right after I claimed cop. Claiming miller when you're under some level of suspicion is somewhat scummy, and having a SECOND person do it doesn't really make either of them less scummy.

My defense is that an actual miller would counter-claim in that situation. The flavor didn't line up and two millers didn't sound normal so I thought Vi could be scum based on that.

Nacho shot makes NO BLEEDING SENSE with anything other than Jahudo scum.

My defense is that Nacho never presented a case on me, why would I feel threatened against someone like that?

Though if you want to speculate, wouldn't I as scum be more threatened by you Grey? UK confirmed you town night 1 and you were calling for me lynch on day 2. Your protector was dead. I would have had every reason to kill you as scum. The real scum would have every reason to pin the kill on me-town.

[Jahudo]

Patrick's recent game. oldy I think.

[Jahudo]

You said I was prob scum regardless of Vi's alignment. But let's look past you for a moment. How many people were suspicious of Vi or myself before either of us claimed? Do you think all it took was for you to claim a 1 shot investigate and all the dominos fall from there?

[Jahudo]

If he and Vi knew that Seraphim was telling the truth about being a lyncher

Do you think this is likely? How so and at what point would you expect scum to start planning for it?

[Jahudo]

Jahudo, answer my question.

Only two pages. What stuck out was you wagon-hopping on the Ectomancer wagon and prodding others to do the same. It was a familiar vibe, so I thought UK was probably right about you.

Is this going somewhere?

[Jahudo]

I thought you were still voting me, Lady Luck. What do you think of Grey's awesome and triple cool idea of keeping the miller alive until mylo?

But speaking of Toasty, I like kdub's point about the trying to set up mislynches of Sera and Grey. Toasty's motivation can certainly be questioned there.

[Jahudo]

I said Grey, not Vi. Toasty was trying to lynch Grey and Seraphim saying one had to be mafia. If he is mafia he would know both Sera and Grey are not mafia.

[Jahudo]

Actually I did question your cases on day 1.

[Jahudo]

Can I hammer yet, I have a streak to uphold. [/half-kidding]

@Grey, why was UT town? Do you think my case on him was invalid or came to the wrong conclusion? What makes reck read as scum, other than he apparently is voting without reading the whole game?

This CES wagon is going nowhere today, apparently. I still think he's suspicious though.

I agree that kdub, rhinox and lady luck look town. We're pretty screwed if there's scum in there.

[Jahudo]

I've seen town UT before and he wasn't bad at all. I know he flaked in this game, but before he flaked he was trying to play and it wasn't like the time I saw him play town. So I still have some doubt.

[Jahudo]

CES maybe lay out your case on me if you actually want people to join it and have it succeed. The only points you've listed are:

- I was scummy for using a smiley emoticon (not sure if serious)
- The ISO tells you plenty (so basically you say nothing and hope someone else makes a case on the ISO)
- Saying I wasn't pro-town curious because I didn't look up his meta (CES made that assumption without knowing if I looked up his meta or not, who is lacking curiosity really?)

That is it. He's voted me four different times and tried to motivate a wagon several times more without backing up his vote. I'm guessing he feels something about the counter-claim timing and style but he never even mentioned it which is the main reason why he is actually scum and not me. He waited it out and distanced himself from the whole event.

Scum would know how the claim/counter-claim could pan out. An ideal scenario would be to get rid of the town miller before the scum liar, or avoid making any comments about how one has to be telling the truth.

[Jahudo]

Entirely serious.

I've never heard of this tell so I'm calling BS until you explain it.

Nice failure to check context (as if you're more interested in making a point against me than finding out my alignment). I told Reck to iso Jahudo since he didn't want to read the entire game.

You reinforced me point there. You hadn't given a reason for voting me before that, and you ask someone else to read my ISO and in order to justify a vote on me. Something you haven't done.

I'm not convinced now that you did look up my meta let alone that you did it properly; I've clearly opted for a specific playstyle this game (which you'd know if you had meta'd him semi-decently) and you didn't comment on that at all in your case.

Did I use meta to form an alignment read on you? No. I only wanted to check on a little bit of your history in order to see what someone else was saying about your personality. I never tried to use it for or against you personally. So what is scummy about that?

Dude, you radiate scumminess. The miller claim was just the icing on the cake.

Inflated confidence + no reasoning = scum grasping for straws. My miller claim is starting to look like a scapegoat for you if I do get killed before you. If you focus on that you could go back and say "Well it would have been a good move if he was scum counter-claiming scum". Sure I guess, but what makes it more likely than an actual miller being in this game? You haven't been able to answer that, so I doubt you are thinking it either.

[Jahudo]

<3

[Jahudo]

I think Reck is more likely to be scum than Toasty, and CES is more likely to be scum than Reck. So I'm holding out for a better choice.

I guess I'll switch to reck. Anyone on the Toasty wagon thinking the same way?

unvote;
Vote: Reckoner

[Jahudo]

You weren't looking forward to Nacho's greatness and you overcompensated. Self-conscious scum are more likely to use a smiley here too since in principle it conveys less information.

This again? What reason did I have to be worried about Nacho's case? This isn't my first game, its not like I haven't been put under the spotlight before.

And what do you mean by conveying less information? I could have just ignored Nacho if I wanted to. That would have been even less information.

It's clear I was telling people/someone to read your ISO; what I just pointed out, doesn't reinforce your point at all. It purely weakens it since I only told one person to read your ISO as opposed to everyone; that decreases the postulated scum benefit by a factor of 7 or so. Detracting from the point even more is that it makes perfect sense for me to point to your ISO there for Reck to read.

You are deflecting. The fact still remains that you had not justified your vote on me even after three re-votes. There was no reasoning to backup and no excuse for your overconfident behavior that suggested anyone not on my wagon was blind. That is exactly the same as leading someone.

It's too prominent to ignore in any certain analysis if you're aware of it. I can totally imagine you reading Oldy to quickly confirm your preconception that I'm probably playing the same way and concluding that my play is similar; guess who's more likely to hold that preconception (hint: it's scum.)

In hindsight I was being lazy town. If you'd prefer I will agree with you that you are not playing to your town meta. Hmm, who doesn't play to their town meta. (hint: its scum)

[Jahudo]

Hey AGM

I doubt you were happy with your play thus far. "I could've ignored him." would be a more plausible excuse if this wasn't one the only comment you made on the matter.

If anything I was hoping to have more suspicion on me. I try to catch scum while looking like a bad NK target, which makes me live until endgame where I catch more scum. I play that way every single game. Nacho saying he had a case on me was good in my mind. I felt confident I could answer for myself and avoid getting mislynched, like usual.

No, you're deflecting. We're arguing about a specific thing I said. You can't rhetoric your way out of not conceding this point, kid.

I'm using facts. Here are all the instances where you push for a lynch:

• Why isn't GreyICE dead yet?

  A vote for GreyICE is a vote for progress!

  Can we lynch Jahudoscum now?

  Just read Jahudo's iso. That should tell you plenty.

  obvscum Jahudo, Reck. Scummy claim, scummy behaviour.

  Reck's your partner, aye?

  CONFESS!

  Last minute Jahudowagon is go!

Up until that point here are all the explained reasons for that behavior:
......

unvote;
vote: CES

[Jahudo]

Fuck CES is so much more town than Jahudo. Read the ISOs people.

Not a chance. What has he done that is pro-town? He ignores major wagons like the Toasty wagon, gives no reasoning for his votes, and generally tries to stay under the radar making it hard for people to read him.

I on the otherhand have explained all my votes with detailed cases, give opinions on all of the major wagons whether I like them or not, and why, and ask questions because I want to know everyone else's alignment.

[Jahudo]

CES has a strong town intent in many of his posts.

Examples?

[Jahudo]

So Grey you are saying your eyes are probably hurting because my posts are blinding you with scumhunting logic? Thanks for the compliment.

And you are right, CES's ISO is filled with strong town intent. Its called my quotes.

[Jahudo]

You know, I still don't really understand that UK calling you confirmed town thing. It doesn't make sense that she had that info in her starting role PM because she took Grey to L-1 and made him claim. I don't think she knew anything there, unless she was really trying to hide the fact that she knew you were town? I can't imagine why she'd risk a hammer on town.

It wasn't until he claimed cop that she said he was confirmed town. Hmm.

So anyway, it will be interesting to figure out what she meant after the game.

[Jahudo]

You must have something against miller claims that you aren't saying. Maybe it interrupted your gambit? Or does this run deeper than this game?

[Jahudo]

So as a miller I should have kept my mouth shut about Vi claiming to have the same role as me?

[Jahudo]

I was trying to but people shot down my idea of nameclaims.

[Jahudo]

I'm here, what are we doing?

[Jahudo]

If there is no lynch @ deadline I will self-hammer

Ditto.

[Jahudo]

Rhinox and Toasty are both town.

[Jahudo]

Seraphim was the right lynch day 1. One day you will accept that.

[Jahudo]

The lyncher who could have won the game on day 1?

[Jahudo]

I'm cool with it. This game has been too frustrating.