Cowboy Bebop Remix [Endgame]

[ToastyToast]

Hey ya'll. I know I haven't played with...ANY of you. Still, looking forward to playin with my fellow cowboy bebop fans .

Oh,

VOTE: Vi

[ToastyToast]

Also, since nobody else wants to bring it up, I will. Are we going to do anything at all with the bounties?

Given that this is the first day, its highly unlikely that we'll guess correctly. Catching scum is more important.

Bounties. Well. It's worth noting that we just need to be on the lynch wagon to get the power which means the majority of the players get their power if we do lynch them. Which means it's entirely possible that the entire scum team could easily get this added power if they just happen to be on the wagon. We'll just have to see how it goes.

Exactly. Odds are lynching a bounty will give at least one scum power. Plus, since the bounties will, for the most part, be townies, lynching one is still a mislynch of sorts.

[ToastyToast]

I'm thinking if we pull a player more likely to scum on our bounty we should try to pursue it. For example, does anyone think that this cowboy guy is likely to be scum? I don't know anything about him to be honest.

I have a hunch that the scum consist of the main space cowboy team of spike, faye, jet, and edward. Could be completely wrong but the bad guys definitely outweigh the good guys in the show. Today's bounty is likely town, as he is a minor character and a rival bounty hunter.

I have role information regarding the flavor and who the scum are. I'm not saying anymore.

Why even tell us this if you aren't going to say anymore?

Unvote: Vote: Seraphim

[ToastyToast]

Ugh, sry about the quote fail in #57

@Toasty: Elaborate the scum intent behind Seraphim's soft claim

My vote on seraphim is a gutread that I'm ready to change when I find someone to be more scummy. His soft-claim just struck me as something intended to confuse. Like "hey...I have information that may hurt the scum team, but I'm not going to tell you it TEEHEE"

Mm...can I request a halt to this line of logic? I feel it's dancing around softclaims which we kinda have too many of for three pages. It can, and probably should be revisited later. But for now I think we're not at a good point for it.

Agreed. The whole Bounty concept should just be ignored for now because it requires mis-lynches.

[ToastyToast]

What? I was under the impression that the bounty could be placed on scum or town? This line is weird...
UNVOTE: VOTE: Toasty

Requires wasn't the best word to use. When I say it 'requires' miss-lynches, I mean that it encourages us to look for someone other than scum. Isn't that exactly what scum would want? It diverts attention away from them and will possibly get them a power too.

[ToastyToast]

I don't think this was a slip because you've been consistent in this opinion, but I don't understand how it encourages us to not look for scum. First of all, how do you propose that we would "look" for this random player unless they either claim or there is some sort of action that reveals them? Also, why is does that exclude looking for scum?

It shifts attention away from them by looking for someone who could be town. This is in contrast to a normal game of mafia, as every townie is looking for scum. I have already argued against it, but IF we were to look for a bounty, I would still want the game to carry on as usual. 1) The person should only claim if they have a terrible bounty power; that way we get a large benefit or 2) If there is no character reveal and people are looking for the bounty, then the player with the bounty on his head will probably be acting different. In other words, he or she would be attracting attention to themselves. Honestly, my plan for that is not very thought out, mainly because I would rather ignore the mechanic.

Nice clear posting:
I feel comfortable with my vote. What you did = someone not all that comfortable with what they're saying. Deciding to take my comment as a serious accusation rather than an offhand comment about the sentence. Overdefensive. Jahudo = good wagon. So is Toasty.

You sure change your mind quite a lot for someone with substantial gut-reads. A vote on Rhinox, my "scum-slip," and now suspicion on Jahudo? Are you picking people who don't have a lot of votes on them for a reason?

[ToastyToast]

Unvote: Seraphim

GreyICE, the more you post, the more I think your scum. I'm not going to let you get away with a quicklynch if that is the case.

[ToastyToast]

I'm at L-2, LLD.

I unvoted. You should be at L-2. Again.

[ToastyToast]

@UK: I'm not voting GreyICE because I still think Seraphim can be scum. I unvoted Sera to avoid a quick-lynch. I suspect GreyICE too, but I am reasonably sure that if Seraphim is scum, then GreyICE is town.

My thoughts on LLD: the last few pages have been her defending from attacks that started when she put Seraphim on "L-1." Nacho did the same thing to her. If we're going to lynch her for that then we shouldn't let Nacho get away with it either.

[ToastyToast]

@Toasty: Let me put it this way. What good does it do town for your vote to be nowhere, at the moment? It's not like GI is at L-2 or something.
Why aren't you backing up your suspicions?

Voting someone isn't the only way to show suspicions. My no vote = not decided. If GreyICE says one more thing that makes me say "SCUM," then I'll vote him. For now, I'm still focussed on Seraphim but don't want him at L-1. Seriously, though, I don't understand your pressure on me to vote. You weren't voting Seraphim until recently, and Untrod Tripod isn't voting either.

[ToastyToast]

I was about to do a scum list, but soo many people are null reads. I'll only post the people who are probably town and probably scum.

Town

Kdub:He posts little, but they all contribute. I'm moving him from a null read because of this.
UK: She's questioned pretty much everyone, and is actively scum hunting.
LLD: The vote on her isn't well thought out, and she isn't phased by the votes on her. She played the same way I would have in the given situation.

SCUM

GreyICE--Uses logic as a reason for votes that don't actually have much behind them; trying to lead town onto various people, then changing his mind when he sees that he doesn't have a chance.

Seraphim--he says he knows something about flavor, then doesn't tell us what he knows; Also,

Logic has no place in a game of Mafia

Seraphim has been very hostile towards GreyICE, which is why I think only one of them can be scum.

Untrod Tripod: Out of all the lurkers, he has been the least productive. Hasn't come up with anything on his own......apparently he voted for me as I'm writing this. You haven't asked any questions of me. I don't vote often, and like to remain consistent. Terrible reason for a vote.

Also, just to appease you, UK, I

VOTE: GreyICE

I suspect him the most.

[ToastyToast]

1 of those is RVS, one is an unvote, and the third isn't going to change anytime soon. Note that I only unvoted Seraphim to avoid a quick lynch. misrep.

[ToastyToast]

I need to reread Grey and LLD and try to figure out exactly what I'm doing.
I will admit that rolefishing was a terrible term to use for what I was trying to say, but my point still stands. LLD's posting previous to voting me looks like she was more concerned with my claim and my role than whether or not I was actually scummy.

why mention this now, after most have decided that your argument is inadequate? more importantly, which previous posts suggests that she was more concerned with a claim. Doesn't matter what a post "looks like" if there's nothing actually there.

@Jahudo: Why did you leave LLD, GreyICE, and Seraphim off your list? Its a very fair post, just curious about that.

Anyone else notice how GreyICE has backed off on both attacks and defending? Get in here, man!

[ToastyToast]

@Seraphim: Woah, bro. I'm just trying to get back into this. Your response was equally unhelpful. My point WAS to understand why your opening up an argument that sucked. You are just adding on to it without any proof that it was actually important to you at the time.

And my question to Jahudo is 1) not for you and 2) obviously rhetorical. I want to know why he's leaving out the three big suspects and going straight to UT. Odd to completely ignore them.

Don't insult me. It doesn't add anything.

[ToastyToast]

@Rhinox: Please use quotes next time.

[ToastyToast]

Vi, Rhinox's entire post is an attack on GreyICE. If you want me to defend myself from a name-drop mention, I will do so. However, other than claiming we're scum buddies--a conclusion that he bases entirely on scumGreyICE quotes--there is NO ARGUMENT for me to defend against. PLUS, the whole incorrect quoting thing is annoying and made me want to skim it. So I did.

He never actually attacks me in the post. I stand by my GreyICE vote, and voted him when there was little pressure on him. The fact that GreyICE's viewpoint on me has changed doesn't say anything. TO me, I just see that as GreyICE realizing that his argument against myself was sub-par (he can be looking for more evidence or have changed his mind).

2) Rhinox's post gave him a few +scum points. He calls out myself and GreyICE as scum. He attacks grey, who l too have attacked. Then, by association, he mentions me as his scum-buddy based on 3 quotes by Grey--NOT me. The fact that I'm often mentioned in GreyICE's posts is not a scum tell

VI, I'm surprised that you think his post was an actual argument.
Bottom Line: I think GreyICE is scum. If Rhinox thinks so as well, good. But bringing me into the argument is useless. Rhinox and Vi, if you think we're both scum, then I would like to see a case proving it. At this point, I see no reason to defend myself.

[ToastyToast]

That's not completely true, Toasty is totally bussing his buddy, Grey.
LLD: who is scum with me?

I also totally was the first person to vote Grey. Its not really bussing if I started the case on him.

@Kdub: I'll put a summary case together in a sec.

[ToastyToast]

The thing that bugs me the most about GreyICE is how he passes everything off as "logical" when his posts have little of it. His defense for half his posts is "reason, which you don't have." This constant mention that he's allegedly good at making arguments isn't found in his posts, and he doesn't support his reads with facts. This posting habit makes me think GreyICE is trying to lead town with baseless information. This is a huge contrast to, say, UK, who is leading by asking questions rather than spouting new reads every so often.

Add that to his votes, but more importantly his sudden shifts in attention towards other players. He has only stayed on Seraphim because he realizes there's a chance for a lynch. When he saw that people weren't voting me, he moves to Seraphim. Ignore GreyICE's scum list, and these are the people he's called scum: Seraphim, Me, Jahudo, CES, Antitown, and Rhinox (says he's waffling on this one)

Jahudo's is important because he starts of by calling it a good lynch, then calls him town when Seraphim suspects him. He also places him in his town list. Where did this sudden switch come from? No telling from his posts.

CES and Antitown are easy targets because they've been lurking, but, really, doesn't Katsuki (of Antitown) always lurk? Not to mention the computer problems they mentioned. I've never played with CES, but the other players seem to be used to it. No one else has attacked him.

His focus has been on Seraphim for a majority of the game. This leads me to believe that if GreyICE is scum, Seraphim is town. Or vice-versa, but I'm in favor of a GreyICE lynch before a Seraphim one.

[ToastyToast]

@UK: I'm not attacking the line in which he mocks my gut-read, if thats what your referring to. I'm attacking the many instances in which his votes come out of nowhere under the guise of being "logical."

And I used you as an example to show a difference. I don't consider you to be leading, but you are my strong town-read. You got that way because of all the questions.

[ToastyToast]

O.o thought she was talking to me

[ToastyToast]

No lies in there. Would you like me to point out where you've called them scum? I ISO'd you, its quite easy.

Wait... you're in favor of lynching me... then if I flip town... lynching seraphim?

Unvote

Vote: ToastyToast

I fucking know I'm flipping town. And this is the first reason anyone has given me that Seraphim might. Holy fuck. FAILURE. It is a fucking option.

I don't know if you're town. The fact that you "know" is meaningless, as it can be complete BS. Thats exactly what I'm in favor of, I just think there is a greater chance that YOU are scum and seraphim is town.

[ToastyToast]

Hello boys and girls! Here's a list of examples in which GreyICE has targeted scum.

Toasty:

I have a gut read of my own. You're scum. It's a good gut read. Flavor mechanics, IoA, setup speculation, and more waffles than Jahudo.

Unvote

Vote: Toasted

Nice clear posting:I feel comfortable with my vote. What you did = someone not all that comfortable with what they're saying.Deciding to take my comment as a serious accusation rather than an offhand comment about the sentence?

Overdefensive. Jahudo = good wagon.

So is Toasty.

I'm backpeddling? It was an offhand comment. Your post was scummy.
One scummy post does not make you scum, as I will happily link you to game after game where townies make perfectly scummy posts. This reaction? Yeah. That does it for me.

Unvote

Vote: Seraphim

Logic has no place in a game of Mafia my ASS. Logic is what I like to operate on.

Scummy

Vi - you're doing a lot of theory, which you're comfortable with, you're quoting other games and asking questions, which you're comfortable with, but I'm not sure you're scumhunting.

As for the Rhinox vote, I think it described it accurately. He showed up, made an random vote on the first page, yes, but without mentioning a damn thing that was happening (which is to say that there was no RVS), and vanished for pages. Best reason for a vote I saw by that stage.

The reactions to CES are priceless? What? He's posted a grand total of blah in the thread. If I had a dayvig I'd have no problem dropping his ass.

As for who you're scum with, looks like Vi. Third I don't know yet. If I had to bet, the list Antitown, ToastyToast, and CES.

TBH, I'm thinking Antitown is probably town, as Antihero has vanished in general, so absence is probably a null tell, and Kats lurks pretty badly most of the time. Just too little content to be sure. Nacho is worth keeping an eye on, it's probably bad to be suspicious of players who are good at being quietly town when they're scum just because they are good at it, but I keep a better eye on them than someone who is pretty easy to read.
Definitely not LLD, Kitten, Tripod, Jahudo, or kdub, they all feel solid town. Rhinox I keep waffling on, a few things rub me wrong, but he just feels too sincere to be scum.

Yeah, read into his talk of Antitown a little too much, but he's still mentioned as scum. But other than that, my list is accurate. Thanks Vi for letting me know that I missed you--had to ISO him a second time.

Discuss

[ToastyToast]

Toasty did the same only 100x worse because he lied and misrepped me in the thread. He has never attempted to find out my alignment, he just tried to find reasons that I was scum. And you? You did the same thing just now.
Now Seraphim looks better simply because of that Toasty lynch chain. Town does not lynch chain. Toasty saw an opportunity to guarentee two back-to-back town lynches.
That is the scummiest thing I've seen. He is 100% scum.
I'll be back when everyone decides to get their head out of their ass and vote for scum over town. And yes, Rhinox, I'm fucking pissed off. Scum is running the show, and the rest of you are sheeping scum or lurking, except for LLD.

No I didn't. Those were all direct quotes. Direct quotes are what you said. Therefore, unless I changed the words, it is not a misrep. I took exactly what you said. The only quote you challenged was that of Jahudo, which you claim was a mistake. I don't have to believe such a claim.

You claim I want to chain lynches. I won't have to because your going to flip scum. I find Seraphim scummy, too. But I'd much rather lynch you over him.

Also, why are you attacking me on this point, when players are suggesting the opposite?

Example:

The hole is that I am convinced you are scum. Therefore, I am convinced Grey is town.
However, I can't just prove Grey is town by saying "Sera is scum" because you haven't flipped yet. Understand? Ok for me to speculate and act upon. Not ok to use as solid proof.

Is this not the same thing? And yet it makes me scum and makes LLD an active townie.

Rage and rage all you want, I am not convinced.

I will not remove my vote from you today, and my vote will go on you again tomorrow unless significant evidence points elsewhere

</3

[ToastyToast]

Ooh, you can take a quote out of context and pretend it shows my opinion.

The only posts I quoted were one's in which you accused someone of being scum. I'm pretty sure that's an opinion.

I showed why those were out of context Toasty. If you'd read my posts, you'd understand the context. You haven't read them, you've skimmed them looking for something you can call scummy, something you can use to build your fake case.

Don't make assumptions. I've read every single one. More than once too. Seriously, stop defending based on claims that have no evidence behind it. If you would like to

prove

that I'm spouting BS or skimming posts or that I'm just obvscum, then by all means do so. But things like this do not count as evidence.

As to why I don't want to lynch Seraphim, it is painfully obvious that despite his incredible play, he is town, because you were so very, very, very eager to chain the lynches together. And that is so very, very, very scum. You are so very, very, very scum. So good job! Not only did you claim scum in the thread (once people wake up and smell the rotting mess), you confirmed a mislynch as town!

So let's say I am lynched and flip town. Then what? Is Seraphim your #1 suspect again? Or do you have anything else that says he's town? This sounds a lot like the same lynch-chaining that I'm allegedly guilty of. OH yes, so very eager, Mr. Lets-ignore-LLD's post section completely. I'm VErY EAGER to SEE YOU FLIP SCUM. Then, I won't have to worry about Seraphim.

Why the sudden shift in confidence Toasty? When did it switch to "well they're not scum together, and I feel better about ICE" to "ICE is definitely scum, and I don't have to lynch Seraphim obv obv obv?"
When I called you on lynch chaining? Oh yes. I do believe that's exactly when.
Do bother to die, obvscum.

You to were so obviously opposed to one another that it suggests only one of you scummy two is actually scum. Why the sudden shift? Just as your all-powerful, logical reads change as the game goes on, my read on you has grown stronger and stronger. Remember this?

Unvote: Seraphim

GreyICE, the more you post, the more I think your scum. I'm not going to let you get away with a quicklynch if that is the case.

Turns out, you've posted quite a lot. And your attitude hasn't changed one bit. My suspicions of you kept growing and growing, and when Kdub asked for a case, I gave it to him. The evidence I have on you is WAY more than the evidence I had on Seraphim.

Calling me obvscum doesn't make it true. Neither does surrounding my posts in things like "THIS IS MADE BY SCUM."

[ToastyToast]

Wow, I posted those quotes to counter my supposed misrep and to provide evidence for the list of people you have accused of being scum. Good night.

[ToastyToast]

I've already said LLD is town. I wasn't asking for a mislynch, just pointing out that you are attacking me for something that can be used against someone you consider to be town.

[ToastyToast]

@ Nacho: I've been accused of bussing. I made that decision to show how serious I am about getting GreyICE lynched. I have become more and more sure of my read.

Also, what about the bounty discussion made me look scummy?

@Antitown: Our argument has the large problem of being the same thing over and over again. My reasons for voting GreyICE should be clear at this point. They haven't changed at all. I think I have an obligation to support my points with multiple counts of evidence, as well as defend myself from the lack thereof in GreyICE's arguments against me. If you want the summarized version of my argument, see post 367. The only important additions after this post are his claim that I am misrepping, his framing of my posts as coming from scum, and, later what I see as hypocritical statements regarding the chaining of lynches.

[ToastyToast]

@GreyICE: I think you misread the quote in response to UK. I was questioning why she was pressuring me into a vote that I wasn't 100% sure about. And yes, much of my case is based on your reactions to the vote and to the case I began to form. The reaction just added to my scum-read, and thus I have become 100% sure of my vote. And I've already explained the list of people you've suspected clearly enough. You said it was a misrep, I responded by finding all the quotes in which you have suspected someone. This includes Rhinox, as an RVS vote isn't really an RVS vote at all if you place it down out of suspicion.

Question: What is your scum-read on Vi relying most on? The "uselessness" of his posts, his attack on you and agreement with me, or something else?

[ToastyToast]

I admit that I misread your views of Antitown (and already did so earlier). You still suspected Rhinox, CES, and Jahudo. Whether or not the Jahudo thing was an actual mistake can be accepted/not accepted by any player, but I have read it as an initial mistake followed by a "clear town read" to distract people from it later.

[ToastyToast]

@MOD

Vote-count is incorrect. GreyICE is voting me.

[ToastyToast]

But make me giggle. Assume for a second I'm town ('cause I am). What's the scummiest vote on this wagon? Do some scumhunting for me, I'd kind of like to see what yours looks like.

Hmmm. If you are town, then probably Seraphim. Why? Strategic vote move when your wagon started to grow, and largely an OMGUS vote. My thoughts that the two of you can't be scum together still stands. I can see why Vi's posts look scummy to you, but they are by no means useless.

GreyICE and Toasty are making this game a pain in the ass to read.

We were both in RAGE mode at that time. Its passed, at least for me. I apologize.

[ToastyToast]

With regards to my Seraphim vote, he was by far the scummiest at the time and needed to be pressured.

I was still hesitant to vote you when I did, because I wanted to be sure about it (pretty obvious given the appeasing thing). But when I placed my vote on you, your reactions continually made me more confident with the vote. In other words, I caught onto something small that turned out to be HUGE.

CES hopping is strange, but so are our ever-changing scum-reads and the coincidence that every player you NOW suspect is on your wagon. Seems too OMGUS to believe.

Also, at the end of your case, you say "most likely" toasty. So you are voting for me over Vi, who you are SURE is scum. Why is that?

[ToastyToast]

I've just spent the last day playing DA2, and then I see...all of this.

I will not remove my vote from you today, and my vote will go on you again tomorrow unless significant evidence points elsewhere

</3

GAWDAMMIT WHY'D YOU HAVE TO SEEM SO SCUM GREYICE?! If Seraphim flips town, I'm still going to be suspicious. And if it turns out you are scum, then that's one good fake-claim. I would be more helpful right now but I'm brain-dead atm.

[ToastyToast]

@Toasty: Reaction to my claim. Now.

IF you mean the GreyICE claim, I'll believe it when he investigates. Its his choice WHO to investigate, but I want to hear the result.

Also, I'm not today's bounty. I was expecting it to be me early, however, based on lore.

Vi's recent vote on me is...WTF.

[ToastyToast]

You mean. The result. Of an investigation. Is what clears me?

THE FUCK?

Explain, plox.

It doesn't clear you, but if you get a scum result on someone, and we then lynch them because of it...A town flip=LIES, u get lynched. A scum flip, then I'd be willing to say your town.

If you get a town result, you could just be trying to clear someone. So, my opinion does to some extent rely on the results.

[ToastyToast]

So your rationale is that I might claim a fake guilty on day 2 to get a mislynch.
Or you're setting up WIFOM in case I investigate you.
Dee dee dee. I can make a bet...

No, I'm saying that if you did fake a guilty, we'd lynch you for it.

[ToastyToast]

@Toasty: No, my claim. The one that cleared GI in the first place.

I think you're going to have to link it. Lost, sorry.

Toasty - It is indeed What The Fencesit.
What about that falseclaim you said was so good? And wouldn't you lynch someone who claimed a false guilty anyway?

Its hard to disprove. Scum has a lot of options which such a claim, and he gets cleared as town. Of course I would lynch someone who claimed a false guilty, thats the point! Of course, this whole RedDragonClan possibly being a town group complicates matters.

[ToastyToast]

@Toasty:
Step 6: Read said post
Step 7: ???
Step 8: Profit!!!

I know how to ISO, but thanks for newb-speak directions.

I agree with your proof against him. I don't think its scummy on your part. The only thing that has put doubt in my mind about GreyICE is his claim. Its certainly thrown off the lynch of him today, but I'm keeping my eye on him. Thats why I want to test his ability. GreyICE has BY FAR said the scummiest things D1, but he's also posted A LOT.

Points on Nacho are interesting. Do you agree with me that Seraphim and GreyICE can't be scum together?

Toasty:
So if GreyICE came back with a guilty tomorrow, you would want to lynch that person to test his claim? What if he claimed a guilty on someone who you had a town read on? I'm just trying to understand your stance here.

Yes.

---
Toast: I still don't see someone who thinks GreyICE is scum saying--

GAWDAMMIT WHY'D YOU HAVE TO SEEM SO SCUM GREYICE?!

---

I was referring to my anger towards him that resulted in the hasty decision that said I would not change my vote. He does seem scum, I think the fact that he got to L-1 proves that. I just have a little doubt in my read now.

[ToastyToast]

Well, convince me then, GI:

A) How is Toasty flailing anymore than his relative uselessness before this?
B) What makes Toasty scummy rather than just bad?
C) What makes Toasty a better candidate than Seraphim?
Answering these questions will greatly elucidate things, and POSSIBLY compel me to listen to you.

Well believe it or not, Vi gave good answers.

A)

The COP. You're being tunneled by a Cop. What is his response to me being called confirmed town as a cop?
1) Question why you're town and Nacho is town
2) Once that line of attack fails, dies, and drops off the planet, subtly hints they should lynch me as a scum test if I get a guilty (note: been tunneling him all day)
3) Then jumps like a dying Orca onto the insane notion that RDC is town.

1)I'm not allowed to question people?
2)DA2=no life; also, thats not what I said. I'll lynch someone who you get a scum-guilty on. If that guilty flips town, you should be scum.
3)Its a POSSIBILITY. I didn't say OMG ITS TOWN.

Also, the only reason I'm useless right now is because I'm sticking to my word. Do you honestly think my argument against GreyICE was useless?

I'm for a Seraphim full claim.

Proof...against him...what?
What are you even talking about, Toasty?

The posts you asked me to read...lead you to vote GreyICE. All relevant facts, but his claim throws me off. UGH this is last time I'm referring to your question.

Also, did UT die?

and GreyICE: are you suggesting to lynch me today or Seraphim today? Confused about this. BTW, I have no problem with who you choose to investigate. There's no reason to investigate Seraphim given his claim. Tired of your misreps, thats why I WILL continue to suspect you. Nothing will change that.

I want to hear Nacho's reaction to my claim of not being today's bounty.

Ah, new posting by Seraphim. That was quite an accident. Hm..

[ToastyToast]

One way of figuring this out would be if there are any other RDC-town players. Anyone see any harm in a mass RDC claim at this point?

No one has any thoughts on this at all?

greyICE is venturing into delusional territory now as well. Its one thing to suspect seraph to be gambitting scum, but he's not incompetant. "Misreading the role PM" is a horrible theory/reason to call someone scum.

Hmm I suppose this would be of no harm to RDC if they were town. Good point. Only issue is if scum knows something we don't. Like, RDC have powerroles or something similar.

WE WON'T SEE ANY MORE RDC CLAIMS UNLESS ITS A SCUM CLAIM IN THE THREAD. I WOULD BET HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS ON THIS HAPPILY. I ASKED PAGES AGO AND NO ONE HAS SAID "YEP THAT'S ME."

So he's agreeing with you. No need for caps-rage (your not Fate).

[ToastyToast]

/me facepalms

Unvote, Vote Seraphim

GI is town, much as I hate to admit it. I can say this with certainty. GI, why don't you try hard? Your entire game has been lackluster.
If it's not clear,

I am 100% sure GI is town, from his claim

Okay, I'm not 100% sure so...thats my reaction. Seriously, if you want me to comment on something in which my opinion is obvious, the least you could do is put in a URL.

Hi, I'm Julia. I've been Andrius-claiming Miller for the past like seven posts now.
I know what a Miller looks like. It's not how Seraphim is describing it.

Not the epic bread-crumming of my bro Andrius. And he be on the mafia-radio thing right now
@Vi: Yeah, thats why I'm not switching my vote. But GreyICE still isn't cleared from my list, and, if that gets me lynched/vigged, so be it.

Seraphim needs to die. Lynch all Liars.

@GreyICE:

I wanna lynch toasty. I'm okay with leaving the claimed third party alive for now.

I think they get the point.

[ToastyToast]

EBWOP: Also, Toasty's use of LAL rhetoric is making me uncomfortable about Seraph.

So you can say it because most people think you're town, but I can't?

I've been leaning Grey-ICE scum, with Seraphim town as a consequence. His switch claim switch and GreyICE's claim have turned it the other way. Is that really so scummy?

I love how once GreyICE claims, people began to consider me scum. My argument against him was OBVIOUSLY a good one if it got him to L-1, then, BAM everyone is on my ass for a change in opinion. I would LOVE to see a case from someone other than GreyICE. You know, one that doesn't misrep me.

@Toasty: The thing is, you never reacted to it, and it's quite interesting you've spent all this time ignoring it.

The game started when I was on break. It allowed me to stay on most of the day and form answers. I've ignored it because I had no idea what you were talking about. I asked for a link and you in turn decided to call me useless. Yeah, very interesting, but also very fucking reasonable.

No. Someone mighta missed it.

I WANNA LYNCH TOASTY

Now you sound like me

[ToastyToast]

Well, whichever. I'm going to sleep. If I can catch up in the morning, yay. If not, Sunday afternoon.
Toasty: Don't worry about going back on your word. Vote who you think is scum.

The only other people I'd vote for right not are UT and Seraphim. Both of which I'm sure GreyICE will attack me for doing. But I'll

Unvote:GreyICE

and think it over again.

[ToastyToast]

A lyncher that stays in the game with all of his abilities once he wins? That would be pretty bad setup design if true. Sounds like you need an excuse for still being in the game if somebody dies and flips as Vicious.

Thats what I was thinking. It would make him confirmed town for the rest of the game, which seems odd. I've never played with a lyncher before--do they often have a scum target?

@GreyICE: can you link the post in which I use WIFOM?

[ToastyToast]

Toasty what are you talking about with the lyncher comment?

If we are to believe seraphim's claim, then when he reaches his wincon, he becomes a confirmed townie with the ability to keep all his powers. What does keeping him around get us? Today has largely become about who the bad guys are. The mix of all the claims so far makes the game unbelievable. We have millers, a one-shot cop who may not even be investigating scum, and a lyncher. I understand how the miller thing could be a throw-off for town, but the lyncher seems...out of place to me.

Lynching one of the millers directly at this point is a suboptimal strategy since you're pretty much proven not town. We win regardless of your flip given our parameters. Further, your flip provides ~*~informations~*~ that lead to scum, whether it's your buddy or unrelated to you.

I agree with this. Lynching Seraphim has the least drawbacks at this point. We either take out a third party that could be aiming for town or lynch scum. On the offchance that he's trying to lynch scum, we find out exactly who we're looking for and use GreyICE's information to take out the red dragon.

Vote: Seraphim

[ToastyToast]

Town also seems to want to lynch seraph over Vi. Or, are you suggesting that all 6 people on his wagon are scum? And CES agreeing with you would clear him? BS, I hope that was a joke.

Looks like I was right. Voting for Seraphim brings the wrath of the narrow-minded GreyICE who seems to think he can lead town based on a role claim. He's also assuming a vig exists. BTW, I'm pretty sure no matter who I voted for, you would respond with "Scum wanna lynch [name] over [name]"

[ToastyToast]

The only way I'm voting for Vi is if you get a scum-read on her tonight. So, no, both you and Seraphim have a higher place on my scum list.

[ToastyToast]

Toasty, who is your scumread on the Seraphim wagon right now?

I can see Vi-scum, but only if I'm incorrect about Seraphim
Rhinox is null, at best.

@GreyICE: Vi claimed miller. Seraphim claimed miller, THEN third party. Which is more suspicious?

[ToastyToast]

moment of truth?

[ToastyToast]

The truth that Jahudo is scum?
Yeah, that one.

I'm referring to a possible vengeful kill on Jahudo.

[ToastyToast]

Hammering claimed third party is a scumtell now? Ok. I'm still waiting for the glory. Its not too late Nacho.

No, but dying and flipping scum after the fact could be considered a scumtell . Or are you going to claim miller like the others?

[ToastyToast]

I'm guessing you missed the sarcasm in that post. Too many millers in this game = probably not millers.

Can't I at least die in something more interesting? Like, death by cake? smothered by jello?

OMG GREYICE STFU I CANT POST WITH ALL THIS POSTING. I'm OBVIOUSLY SAYING SOMETHING IMPORTANT HERE.

[ToastyToast]

Wait, so, your cop thing was a bounty power?

This flip means that spike's group is town. So, the red dragon ppl are probably scum. more later, have a big test to study for right now.

[ToastyToast]

...wow, really? Speaking of people who need to die..

Vote:GreyICE

[ToastyToast]

you lied about cop, and now you claim HIDER? WTF THATS LIKE THE SCUMMIEST--ugh, not to mention one-shot hider, which makes no sense at all.
seriously, there are only two options:
1)You're purposely playing stupid so we can get bounty rewards
2)Scum
this means: quite a safe lynch. And we lynched a 3rd partyD1--nothing wrong with that.

I wish we could ask kitten if her role info changes with his new claim :/
@Kdub: her death could be strategic on scum's part. We can't ask her if her opinion on GreyICE has changed.

Question for GreyICE: UK said her role-info suggested you were town. Did you have role info that suggested she was town?

I'm also willing to vote Vi/Jahudo, but still, GreyICE...#@!*#*(*$&(*#*$#

[ToastyToast]

You missed my question involving UK. Since its one-shot, are you willing to tell us who you targeted now?

Unvote:GreyICE

for his reasonable response involving hider mechanics.

[ToastyToast]

Which UK post are we talking about again?

Around her L-1 vote on GreyICE, she claims that she has role-info that suggests GI as town.

@LLD: I'm trying to understand hiders, but Andrius sucks at teaching. If that's the reason for suspicion, I apologize.
I'm ISOing Vi before I place down a vote--just in case.

[ToastyToast]

I was expecting more from Rhinox's argument. Ignorance does not make GreyICE obvscum--obvdumb, maybe (omg i've wanted to say that forever i'm so creative)!

Before I place my vote down, Why would scum claim miller? The fact that multiple people have said as such makes me feel as if its...too obvious for both to be scum. Do you think in some situation either Jahudo or Vi IS a miller, and the other is scum? Thats what I am thinking right now, but its more of a question of which one.

[ToastyToast]

Just did a quick ISO of Vi.
I don't like her defense of me throughout the game, then sudden switch onto me after GreyICE lynch began to rot.
No reason for such a miller claim that early in the game.

If, however, she IS Julia, then we can assume that Vi is a Miller, leaving Jahudo in the open

Vote: VI

I am in favor of learning who GreyICE hid behind. It will clear someone as town, so we should use the move to our advantage, ESPECIALLLY if he hid behind someone we have been suspecting.

[ToastyToast]

@Rhinox: If you look at GreyICE's crumbing near the end of D1, it would be reasonable to conclude that he was going to hide behind me (or Vi). The whole "oops" moment that GreyICE seems to be playing is a pain in the ass, but it doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth. I think its best to trust UK, who a majority of us had on town lists throughout the game.

[ToastyToast]

@Rhinox: If you look at GreyICE's crumbing near the end of D1, it would be reasonable to conclude that he was going to hide behind me (or Vi). The whole "oops" moment that GreyICE seems to be playing is a pain in the ass, but it doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth. I think its best to trust UK,

who a majority of us had on town lists throughout the game.

Who flipped town.

FTFY

I suppose her flip would make her pretty obvtown

[ToastyToast]

@LLD: Explain your Kdub vote?

@GreyICE: your just as much a mess as I am. So,

go f yourself.

[ToastyToast]

I've been feeling worse about Toasty. I should have realized it yesterday, but after Seraphim flipped non-mafia, Grey's thing on D1 about Toasty trying to set up mislynches (Seraphim + Grey) is actually a very good point. I just didn't think about that yesterday because Seraphim flipped third party, which I generally associate with scum. I also don't like how he was quick to jump on Grey yesterday after Rhinox started a push against him, then backed off once it was clear nobody was buying it.
VOTE: Toasty

i figured suspicion would go back on me after Vi was lynched.
My logic with Grey-Seraphim was based on the fact that I was fairly certain that it wasn't town on town. They were going after each other WAY too much, and were the two scummiest players D1. Likewise, I don't think scumbuddies would go after one another that much.

My logic was basically this:
Grey and Seraphim are not on the same side
Grey comes off as the most scummy
If Grey flips scum (which I thought he would), then Seraphim is cleared as town
If Grey flips town, then Seraphim is not town.
Turns out, Seraphim was third party, which means my logic wasn't all that off

I consider no one to be confirmed town right now, including GreyICE. I can see a way in which he is scum, but his Vi suspicions were spot-on.

I was planning to wait until UT showed up before a vote, but now that we may need a replacement...

My current scum-team read is Jahudo/UT, with GreyICE and Rhinox in the middle, Kdub and LLD for town.

[ToastyToast]

Does

ex

-lover automatically mean town?

[ToastyToast]

So it's a role that bodyguards non-RDC scum?
Imma gonna beat you...

Ugh, your not on my scum-list. Be happy.

Also, characters who are in the game: Faye Valentine, Andy von de Oniyate, Vicious (Vi), Spike (Seraphim), Laughing Bull (Nacho), Alisa (GreyICE claim), Gren (Jahudo claim), Jet (Uncertain Kitten)

We can also assume that Edward is in the game, and the other scum are probably Lin and Shin.

If we are to believe all claims and bounty targets, then that leaves 2 others, including myself. I'm Katrina (if you want my whole role, I will claim, but its not what I think we need right now).

I'm saying this because I feel that if we have a character claim, we may be able to determine the who sticks out the most.

[ToastyToast]

I'm not saying the game is breakable--I'm just looking at lore as a second option.
That's why I'm suggesting no role-reveals. People with bounties likely won't be bounties again. Revealing themselves as said bounties shouldn't hurt them.

The only problem with my idea is if some of the bounties are fake-claims, but I still think its worth a shot.

'twas just a suggestion, and don't see how it could hurt town if we don't share roles.

[ToastyToast]

okay, then guess katrina's power and see how easy it is. I love flavor and didn't immediately understand why I had the role I did.

2 people saying no is enough for me to drop it, but I'll claim regardless of your guess.

[ToastyToast]

So if I vote for Jahudo (bussing), the conclusion is that I'm scum, and if I don't vote for Jahudo, I'm still scum.
Where's the option for when I'm not scum? oh wait, you forgot about that one.
LOL
Julia fake-claim was out of place
Gren is similar (but probably too similar);

Vote:UT

@LLD:
1)I said reveal names only
2)Given that most of the players think I'm scum, the only thing my claim will do is let town determine for themselves what I am.

SO IM GOING TO FUCKING DO IT

I'm Katrina. I have no normal power, but my bounty reward is a vote motivator. I give someone a nice injection of red-eye and they get enough power for 2 votes.

[ToastyToast]

She is more important of the two villains in Episode 1, but not in the typical way. I'm not going to get in an argument over why, however.
And thats a misspelling on Fate's part, then.
And okay, no more flavor spec.

I have had suspicions on UT the entire game. I haven't had suspicions on LLD or Kdub, and Rhinox is leaning town. GreyICE is confirmed (but still pisses me off). Jahudo's claim is believable given that I highly doubt Fate would give two scum miller fake claims.
That leaves me with UT.

[ToastyToast]

This is why I've been waiting for him to come in and say something. But he hasn't.

[ToastyToast]

Furthermore, why would Fate use Katerina as a role? She's not even the MAIN Villain from Episode 1. She's the fucking sidekick to Antonio Banderas knock-off.
I'm calling shenanigans on this claim.

Btw, now we CAN use roles to speculate? Huh, hypocrite.

[ToastyToast]

I am of the opinion that if we ever intend to lynch a bounty, Day 4 is the best day to do it (assuming we get a successful lynch today). Thats the only role-fishing in my statement. I am, in reality, SCUMFISHING, by looking at whose fake claims are total BS. Jahudo's claim is logical given the lore, and, again, why the hell would fate put two fake-claiming millers in the game?

Sorry, GreyICE, but your plan is incredibly risky. If both of use are town, which I happen to believe, town gets pwned.

Nacho NK certainly points to Jahudo, but it could be framing of sorts. "Hmmm, who can we kill to ensure a mislynch...well, Nacho is hostile towards Jahudo, who has a lot of suspicion on him."

How do people not see how strange a double-miller fake claim is? GRRR

[ToastyToast]

O.o reckoner

[ToastyToast]

Grey, I've also claimed, if you missed it

ToastyToast
Role Name: Katerina
Bounty Power: Vote Motivator

GreyICE, can I assume you are doing this to get your hider power?

[ToastyToast]

I give someone an extra vote

[ToastyToast]

oh, what a convenient random ISO!

I wasn't sure about my Seraphim read, I was much more confident with my GreyICE read. How was I to know he would be confirmed town?

The fact is that GreyICE got put to L-1 for being scummy, and he LATER became confirmed town. I still don't like him, but I've backed off.

@Reckoner: what makes Jahudo obvtown? If we are to assume you haven't read, then you can't really say that based on HiS OWN POST

@Jahudo: why the switch from UT/reckoner to CES? Has reckoner said anything to change your mind?

@GreyICE: which can just be a coincidence

[ToastyToast]

Toasty was all to happy to vote greyICE in support of my apparently horribad theory of greyICE scum yesterday. Then quick unvote. Then toasty's vi vote, looks sort of like bussing due to here I isod and picked out a couple points and vote but oh hey if vi really is a miller then its open season on jahudo vagueness I don't really understand.

My vote did not rely on your horribad theory--it relied on GreyICE's actions day 1. Also, I mentioned day one that if he happened to stay alive, I'd be voting him. Not to mention the fact that my vote came after GreyICE's sudden decision that he wasn't a cop, but a hider. And it wasn't a normal power, but a bounty.

Your case just happened to coincide with mine.
and this is what I said after you said your case.

I was expecting more from Rhinox's argument. Ignorance does not make GreyICE obvscum--obvdumb, maybe (omg i've wanted to say that forever i'm so creative)!
Before I place my vote down, Why would scum claim miller? The fact that multiple people have said as such makes me feel as if its...too obvious for both to be scum. Do you think in some situation either Jahudo or Vi IS a miller, and the other is scum? Thats what I am thinking right now, but its more of a question of which one.

[ToastyToast]

His case was also way better than yours, just fyi.

It was also better than your--oh wait, you've never had a case. Right.

[ToastyToast]

Because UT just flaked. You can't vote for someone when you're not in the game.
CES actively avoided the wagon by hopping on both other possible wagons.
If you are going to say one scum is off the wagon, UT is not a pick.

UT was scummy before the flake. And you're contradicting your own logic.

[ToastyToast]

1) I'm going to assume thats the royal we. Again, being confirmed town doesn't make you a king whose plan should be followed. But I approve of your vehicle choice

2) If your power is a bounty, how can you make a statement like that?

[ToastyToast]

I said Grey, not Vi. Toasty was trying to lynch Grey and Seraphim saying one had to be mafia.

If

he is mafia he would know both Sera and Grey are not mafia.

See this is the problem with the case against me. A bunch of If's and could be's, no actual objective proof.
I can just as easily have said that because everyone is a suspect at the beginning of the game, and they both made a place at the VERY TOP of my scum-list. You vote for people you suspect.

Also, why bring this up now when it happened D1? You should have pointed your suspicions out when it was part of my logic against Grey-ICE. But, no, who makes it to L-1? Grey, not me.

[ToastyToast]

I already claimed but here's the full

I am Katrina (thats how Fate spelled it, so thats what im sticking with).
I have no normal ability but have the bounty power of being a vote motivator

I ultimately accept my fate if it means getting you guys to stop sticking to a plan that isn't going to work.

If I get lynched right now, then I encourage you to look at Reck/UT. UT was against me early, and snuck under the radar FOR THE WHOLE DAY PHASE when Vi got lynched. Made it seem like there was no connection between him and anyone else. Reck then "randomly" ISO's the one person with the biggest wagon, and votes him despite failing to do any background information on other players.

If UT isn't scum, then CES/Jahudo is, I agree with GreyICE on that
Lastly, Rhinox/LLD are my bets for other scum. I liked both of them until today--Rhinox's vote reasons are unclear to me and LLD hasn't been very helpful. Also the "WHY ISNT TOASTY LYNCHED YET" posts by her are odd. The strong town read I had on her at the beginning of the game has gone to bordering null
Also, don't follow GreyICE blindly. Its obvious from my play that I did not like him in this game, but, seriously, look at his plan and all the problems with it. Come up with your own arguments--confirmed town doesn't mean he's the pope.

[ToastyToast]

My guess as to why they haven't pushed is because they have no idea what the town powers are.

[ToastyToast]

It basically says townie, then my bounty power in brackets

[ToastyToast]

GI, he's claiming a VT with a weak bounty power.

motivators are a swingy power, not a weak one. Just have to give the votes to the right person.

[ToastyToast]

Rhinox:

Probably Town. Now we will reveal the role information that lets me know this:
...
It's a secret! NYAH
If I die tonight, he can figure it out on his own, or he'll deserve his own lynch. I'll see if the little hamster wheel can stay on track.
That being said, it's hardly a 100% thing.

what changed exactly between this and

This could net us Rhinox scum if I'm right...

?

[ToastyToast]

I had no idea the deadline was today. If it so happens that I am lynched, I can only recommend that you guys examine reckoner/UT--these replacements can be throw offs, but hopefully the new guy gives us something more involved.

I did not fake claim, and I understand the reasons behind my lynch. I stand by my logic in D1, and my thought process in D2. The results of D1 ultimately pointed at scum, and I knew we needed to lynch either Vi or Jahudo. I still think Kdub and Jahudo are town. LLD has lost her "townier than thou position," and CES is still...CES.

I'm liking antitown as well--his arguments are well-thought out for someone who posts little.

I have nothing else to say in regards to my defense, only that my logic does not match with the claims made by the people on my wagon, and that my claim does not make sense for that of scum.

[ToastyToast]

You are null, so yeah, basically right in the middle

[ToastyToast]

I still do not see how or why a Vi-Jahudo scum team would have 2 miller fake-claims
Similarly, his counter claim was pro-town.

If Jahudo hammered me, it would only stem from the fact that he hammered D1 and D2 (hmmm new meta?)

@LLD, your question is just asking for WIFOM
Lets look at all the possible situations:
1) He's town who thinks I'm town, so won't hammer
2) He's scum and thinks my lynch is inevitable
3) He's town but doesn't want to provoke suspicion by hammering a third time
4) We're both scum and he wants to try and force another lynch
5) LLD likes to ask loaded questions

[ToastyToast]

Eh, I never said I wanted to lynch you in order to test your claim--I wanted to see a result. Then, it suddenly turned into a bounty power AND was actually a hider power. Am I not wrong to suspect you after such odd events? Rhinox's info was just added reasons, not the core. If I remember correctly I voted before he gave a case (don't take my word for it, though. I'll have to check but am doing work--friggen mafia distracting me)

I'm actually quite amused by these posts other than the fact that they make me out to be a complete dumbass.
I wonder what will happen to your confidence after a flip...

[ToastyToast]

OMG I WANTED YOU TO INVESTIGATE ME
I WAS THE THIRD PERSON TO VOTE VI
YOU CANNOT HONESTLY THINK THAT LYING ABOUT COP AND SWITCHING TO HIDER IS NOT SCUMMY
IF WE LYNCHED THE PERSON WHO YOU INVESTIGATED AS SCUM, AND THEY FLIPPED TOWN, YOU, BY DEFAULT, ARE THE BIG SUSPECT. THATS WHAT I SUGGESTED.
SINCE WHEN COULD LOVERS NOT BE SCUM? THAT WAS MY THOUGHT PROCESS
YOU WERE BY FAR A HUGE BLIMP FOR ME D1. I SAID I WOULD BE VOTING YOU AGAIN D2, AND I DID
RDC NOT BEING SCUM WAS A HUGE POSSIBILITY
AND DON'T ATTACK THE QUALITY OF THE GAME UNTIL ITS ALL OVER. THEN WE'LL SEE WHO REALLY FUCKED UP. AND I'LL SAVE WHAT ELSE I HAVE TO SAY UNTIL THEN.

Now then, AlmasterGM, I've said this before and I'll say it again--no one should rely on GreyICE for the complete story. ISO me, then decide independent of what he says.

[ToastyToast]

CES, I think that you should battle this out day 3. Jahudo's play has been so epically terribly scummy that I'd almost rather lynch him than Toasty, but every bit of logical analysis I do says that Toasty is scum and needs to be the lynch today, because if he's town,

1) he's a shitty VT with a shitty bounty power (it's not even guarenteed to hit town, it's worse than mine ffs, and mine's a weak cop with upside)
2) his day 1 play was so bad and scummy that's its ridiculous
3) his remaining on me despite not thinking I was scum was so weird even Vi called him on it.
4) Vi's vote was so, so, so distancing/bussing if a Toasty wagon took off, and so not 'scum trying to push a case on a townie'
5) When Vi wagon started to get serious he found time to vote Seraphim.
6) ...

No, enough, he gets lynched today. You and Jahudo duke it out tomorrow,

1)Seriously, tired of hearing how "shitty" I am. If I have such a shitty bounty power, then save it for when my bounty reward comes up.
2)My day 1 play was so bad because, why, exactly? YOU CAME OFF AS SCUMMY AND YOU CANT DENY THAT. YOU GOT TO L FUCKING 1 FOR A REASON.
3) Your claim weakened my scum read on you, it did not destroy it
4)OR she could've been bringing up an issue in order to get me lynched the next day.
5)No, I voted for my other scum-read, because your lynch obviously wasn't going to happen.

I have nothing else to say. If you are so convinced I'm scum the hurry up and vote me. I won't let you get away with your "Oh, gee guys, I told you lynching him was a bad idea!" bullshit like you did with Seraphim.

Odds are my flip will at least clarify that about half of your scum-teams are impossible, so maybe people will stop listening to your shit.

[ToastyToast]

You exist to irritate me, WIFOM me, and generally drive me insane.
But toast needs to be dead. This day has stagnated partially because Toasty is so scummy and we're just not sure he's scum. The flip determine things.
If Toasty is town:

Jahudo Partners:

AGM
Kdub
?

The feelings mutual. And I'd just like to note that you were seeing me as town until AGM came in.

[ToastyToast]

my last opinion: lynch AGM/Reck/UT 2morrow

Of course, saying that will probably lead to some "OMG TOASTY SO STUPID LISTEN TO ME AGAIN INSTEAD"
I certainly have done a few scummy things, but you have blown them out of proportion--thats the only reason why I'm being lynched today. You are far more distracting, Mr. Pope. I'd compare you to Alexander VI. Vi pun not intended.

[ToastyToast]

except scum is on my lynch too. I fucked up day one with my narrow-minded read of you, but if it wasn't for that I would have played much differently. It forced me to play defensively, and I genuinely tried to get out of it but it obviously didn't work.

for a little more WIFOM (which I haven't done a lot of, only taunted you) If I were scum I wouldn't have told you to vote me. Nor would I have continued to challenge you.

[ToastyToast]

[ToastyToast]

AGM > CES > Jahudo

If you guys are really that adamant on either Jahudo or me, then I'll let you have my vote.

[ToastyToast]

I'm here, what are we doing?

Apparently I'm not dead.

[ToastyToast]

yes, me and GreyICE are here...
that would make 5

If there is no lynch @ deadline I will self-hammer

[ToastyToast]

wow math fail...ignore that "5"

[ToastyToast]

Quick ISO on Rhinox right now. be back in 3

[ToastyToast]

I can see Rhinox scum. His 2 scum suspects were me and AGM? WTF is with that combo?
But the most recent post by Jahudo? another WTF?

Dear lord I feel more lost than right now that I do in marathon games run by tragedy.

[ToastyToast]

Rhinox has no votes on him. Thats not happening. Very well, your wish is my vote

Unvote:Vote:Jahudo

[ToastyToast]

...where did everyone go?

[ToastyToast]

GreyICE could've killed me in seconds, and yet he went on a very long internal-argument on whether or not I was scum. I could've been dead much early. Where is the scum motivation in that?

And wait a sec, LLD, NOW you are bringing up the "ex-lover" argument? NOW you are saying GreyICE isn't confirmed town. Didn't I say that and it was written off as scummy? The fact that when I say GreyICE is confirmed town I get a "dumb and scum" read and the fact that you then take one of my reasons for suspecting GreyICE as one of your own when people move away from my lynch is quite odd.

When Jahudo flipped town I first yelled at my computer and said "I TOLD YOU SO" and then I raged. Afterwards, I figured at least one scum would have to be on the Jahudo wagon. Rhinox's unwillingness to hammer Jahudo becomes a town read.

So, my Jahudo wagon suspects ultimately came down to LLD and CES. LLD was already low on my list, and Rhinox has already pointed out your strange shifts and stances. You say you changed because of the whole deadline lynch thing. But even amongst that you say things like "can we lynch rhinox instead?" and "I'm only lynching Jahudo or Toasty"--both things that would delay the lynch. And I was L-1, so saying you had to make a quick decision and voted Jahudo is BS.

[ToastyToast]

EBWOP: When I say GreyICE ISN'T confirmed town

[ToastyToast]

It's not AGM time.

I want you or Jahudo to flip.

And your reaction to being "hammered" lowers you on my list.

Unvote: Vote: Jahudo

Even with your apparent change in read, you said it was between me or Jahudo. Still leaving the option open, eh?
And, in all honesty, I don't think my reactions to being "hammered" warrant an auto-matic switch to a town-read.

[ToastyToast]

I did, even commented on it in my post. REGARDLESS, YOU WERE STILL OK WITH MY FLIP. If you thought I was town, that shouldn't be there.

[ToastyToast]

I agree with CES, I say massclaim

[ToastyToast]

Moreover, AFA I can remember, Toasty is a IRL friend of Andrius' and has been following along with mafia for long before he actually made an account. I'd bet money that Toasty has gotten a decent amount of coaching from Andrius (not necessarily on this game, but on how to play in general).

I've read Andrius' scumgame, and I lack this dark heart of fear that his expert coaching may have taught Toasty not to latch on to the nearest easy lynch.

^^He just read this and laughed hard.

@AGM: With regards for my reasons against UT, I think my biggest problem with the slot D1 was the fact that he would periodically come in, say something suggesting suspicion, than conveniently left.

Just a few of his early post...his RVS was LLD (scumbuddies?); when he voted me it was based on post-to-vote ration and blowing smoke..also said he would be willing to vote antitown to get him into the game. Which is ironic given that he lurked WAY MORE than antitown. Then he disappears completely while Vi sees the town turn against her. Reck then comes in D3, unwilling to catch up to the game but manages to take some time and "randomly ISO" the person with biggest wagon.

I have, however, liked AGM's posting since he's been here. Not enough to move him to town, but enough for me to consider other suspects.

At the beginning of N4, my suspicion was leaning towards CES. His sudden break in playing style to go after Jahudo struck me as being very odd. I also don't like how he tried to make Jahudo out to be someone looking to score 'town points.' His arguments against CES were legitimate, and a lot of his defense consisted of "It's like this" without explaining the

why

Today LLD's argument against GreyICE had some merit (GreyICE isn't actually confirmed town), BUT why didn't she bring it up earlier? I've also made a few other points/asked some questions of her today that I have had issues with. I don't like her "Jahudo or TT or Rhinox" lynch only thing. Nor do I like her complete switches in reads--she went from me, jahudo, rhinox scum to GreyICE and CES(??)

I'm waiting to hear from CES and Kdub before I make any decisions, but I am liking LLD-AGM scumbuddies.

[ToastyToast]

@CES: does your neighborizer ability confirm both members as town?

[ToastyToast]

@GreyICE: I don't understand your objection here. Its no stranger than a one-shot hider.

[ToastyToast]

@ AGM: I highly doubt that Faye would be a fakeclaim.

CES does have quite the fake-claim, I admit that. He's also already on my scum list, so I'm okay with lynching him today.

However, I feel like today would be the best day to lynch LLD if we think she's scum.
She claimed the bounty. That means that, scum or town, her death would allow for all our powers to take effect. GreyICE can hide behind someone, I can motivate, and CES-Kdub can get their QT. We can get information out of that 2morrow. Then Kdub can see who on the wagon was scum.

The problem: On the chance that I'm wrong and LLD flips town, my power is...too strong if I use it on the wrong person.

Ugh, in the process of writing that I'm beginning to think its too risky, but its something to think about.

[ToastyToast]

Yeah...you mishide and we lose. I mis-motivate and we lose...thats no longer an option.

Vote:CES

He is now at L-1

[ToastyToast]

This is going to be a long day...

QFT

@GreyICE/AGM: If LLD is scum, then who is her scumbuddy and why?
Also, yesterday I wanted LLD lynched. AGM, you called her town. Does that mean you agreed or disagreed with me yesterday?
GreyICE, why did you tell AGM to roleblock me?

[ToastyToast]

LLD, GreyICE, AGM. They've all been on my scum list.
If LLD is scum, then LLD is with either Rhinox or Kdub.
The connections b/w GreyICE and AGM are clear, and I agree that this whole thing seems planned.
AGM roleblocks LLD, no kill, "she must be scum." Unless scum team decided to hold off on a kill. 4-2 is a great position for scum to be in. 3-2 gives a higher chance of a scum lynch.

Vote: No Lynch

"Confirmed" town still being around is very odd, not to mention that GreyICE has been a primary aggressor for every lynch. But LLD has fooled me before, and I don't want to take any chances....so we should no lynch and force scum team to make a move.

[ToastyToast]

I'm frustrated, because I already wanted to lynch GI and AGM earlier in the game and got no town support and in fact many town players spent a good deal telling me how shitty my cases were and convinced me I was wrong. I drank the coolaid. How am I supposed to undrink it to possibly believe a AGM GI scum team? HOW?

We all wanted them lynched. But, no, we became the scummy ones--people who wanted confirmed town and a lurker lynched.

Toasty did you miss the part where I said we're no no lynching?

Probably. This game is moving hella fast, but thats where my vote is right now.

[ToastyToast]

@GreyICE: I kinda suggested #1, but moreso for the position. Scum wouldn't have known who AGM would have targeted, but if they felt they were safe they could have purposely started the argument. However, that seems too far-fetched. Add that with the fact that my top scumspects are involved in this argument, and I think we have at least one scum.

Not sure what you mean about #3

[ToastyToast]

Ok. So 4/6 people are suspects. super.

In regards to the "GreyICE is 100% confirmed town!" issue,
1) They weren't masons. But did you guys have a QT? A question that I think should've been asked sooner
2) Its highly plausible that UK only had a fake claim revealed to her
3) If UK was 100% convinced that GreyICE was town, then she probably protected him. What this says, I'm not sure, for there is no way to tell whether she died protecting him or if the shot was direct.

Questions for LLD:

Shock and motherfucking awe.
Now here comes AGM!scum to say he RB'd someone, and get the mislynch.
No, fuck that. I'm tempted to just lynch AGM or Grey in the spot today, but I think a no lynch is what we need in mylo. And it is most CERTAINLY Mylo.

What wierd about this is that it came before AGM, almost as if you were completely ready for it. Did you expect them to go after you?
Do you still have Rhinox/Kdub as suspects? I find your "well, maybe its them. Or maybe its them. Or maybe its them" stances from Jahudo lynch-on to be odd. LIke, waiting for the most likely wagon and hopping on.

TBH, I'm really torn on this one. I think the following are the most likely (in order) scumteams:
GI-AGM
LLD-Rhinox
LLD-Kdub
Kdub-AGM

I still have a strong town read on him, but people are calling him scum on all ends :/. My gut is just too strong on him.
I don't like LLD's desperation today, nor do I like her "whatever, I don't have to prove myself to you" stuff; she says that she wants to convince town. Yet, most of what I need to process comes from the argument between my suspects.

Ugh, really torn. A lot of the posts I'm making are self-dialogue, but I keep goin' back and forth.

[ToastyToast]

@LLD: Thats quite a lot WIFOM

@Rhinox: This whole "I'm not scum from my perspective, but it makes more sense for the gambit to be pulled on me" is the only thing thats keeping you from a town read.

[ToastyToast]

Nothing resembling blue is permitted -Fate

Relevant. Just sayin'. Carry on.

[ToastyToast]

@GreyICE - ...what?

It's taken a while, but when she's stressed I can read her. And she'd never lie in Red.
The goal was pretty much like I said, and what I figured would happen - you submitted a Roleblock on Toasty or Rhinox.
And then no one dies. So it becomes a 1v1 that consumes the town until it's fixed.
Only you happened to hit scum ANYWAY.
Tell me that's not lulzy.

Umineko references aside, what makes her reaction different from a town reaction? If the roleblock occurred on me, and scum no-killed, I'd have to defend myself in a similar way.

[ToastyToast]

@Kdub: I'm going to have to agree with LLD that her lynch, based on yesterday, would be easy. I was against her, and, with CES being town, we don't have many suspect characters left.

LLD: Not a major proponent for any lynch, but has remained active. Still, definitely a player constantly in the arguments with a lot of content to pick and choose from. Not to mention the fact that she had a wagon on her D1. When the people underneath her in terms of scumminess are taken out and flip town....well, she's at the bottom of the list
Kdub: Most of us have had strong town-reads throughout, but you've played passively. Commenting here and there, but staying under the radar
Toasty: Yeah, I was at L-1. Its the reason I'm still alive, and, no matter the outcome, I expect scum to go after either me or you tomorrow.
Rhinox: Is he pro-town? Are his arguments valid? No one really seems to know
AGM: Roleblocker? doesn't scum need one of those? Not to mention your predecessors were full of fail
GI: Mr. confirmed-"im the pope man," why are you not dead yet?

Everyone here is still a suspect, but LLD is either the biggest threat to scum or the biggest threat to town.
Note: this is more self-dialogue. trying to process the "why?" and what case a scum team is most likely to go for.
In my opinion, LLD wouldn't be scum because scum would be foolish to go after confirmed town when they could just kill him the next night. Then again, is she REALLY targeting GI, or is she just going after AGM?

But I was almost certain that AGM would fake the RB and use a no kill. Because if I was a scum RBer,

I would have done the same.

And AGM isn't a fool. AGM is every bit as intelligent as I am. Honestly, he is probably leaps and bounds smarter than me. But I know that this move is the most viable option for him as a scum RB, because it's what I would have done.

Now I have music from Chicago stuck in my head. But WIFOM + appeal to intelligence +false conclusion=flailing.

[ToastyToast]

@Kdub: I'm going to have to agree with LLD that her lynch, based on yesterday, would be easy. I was against her, and, with CES being town, we don't have many suspect characters left.

Looking at your posts, you are right. I had thought you suspected AGM yesterday, but you actually suspected both of them. Hmm...

Yes, my suspicions on the AGM slot weakened with his arrival, but, lets be honest, my feeling on UT/Reck need more than a new replacement to change my view on them.

@GI: If, by chance, there was a role-cop, you being a town investigative role puts you in the similar boat of AGM claiming townRB as opposed to scumRB. But role cop certainly does fit meta, and I see your speculation as a likely option.

[ToastyToast]

@Kdub: with regards to you post regarding Grey/UK in 1611, I think operating merely on the whole 100% town thing by UK is a bad idea. It certainly bugs me, which is why I stopped going after GreyICE D2. But having a confirmed town alive so late in a game is always odd, not to mention the fact that many of the mislynches were led by GreyICE, and that he has used his status to his advantage.

Contrary to you, I am leaning GreyICE-AGM scum. My problem is that I still have major issues with LLD, and if it wasn't for the fact that I'm looking for buddies, she would have my vote. HOWEVER, I think, in any situation, an AGM lynch today is worse than either a GreyICE lynch or a LLD lynch, because an AGM lynch = bounty powers. That means, being wrong about AGM=scum get powers that possibly force a win.

[ToastyToast]

The only problem with that is that I wouldn't want you to receive bounty power either, but someone has to be the fourth vote...

[ToastyToast]

Having a

natural

progression of reads is town. Like I'm having WITH YOU AND AGM. HOLY FUCK. Using AtE because your read progression is ANYTHING BUT NATURAL is FUCKING BAD. As is your response to AGM.AND PRETTY MUCH EXACTLY WHAT I'D EXPECT YOU TO DO AS TOWN.HOLY FUCK

UNVOTE

I HATE THIS.

Scared that your buddies going to get lynched?

The UT slot is GARBAGE. It's nearly unsalvagable. The more I look at Reck's play the more it SCREAMS 'coasting scum.' Replacing out is the closest thing I see to a town tell, since I can see him not having time to reread, but I can also see him has not having energy to care. Reckoner hates playing scum, it's in his personality. He gets no thrills out of tricking people, and he was having no fun posting in this thread.

So you realize this now that AGM might be lynched? Where was this when I was getting bussed? Where was this when we had to lynch someone and chose Jahudo? Ugh, frustrating.

[ToastyToast]

So you realize this now that AGM might be lynched? Where was this when I was getting bussed? Where was this when we had to lynch someone and chose Jahudo? Ugh, frustrating.

I meant wagoned. They're both methods of transportation

[ToastyToast]

Some more internal dialogue
D1, we lynch Seraphim. I suggested we go after him or GI, then the other. Called out for chaining lynches, but GI gets to L-1. Ultimately we lynch the lyncher. I don't get killed because the flip implicates me. Instead, UK dies for having information about GI-town.
D2, UT completely disappears. Vi is out in the open, lightly attacks me, and gets taken down on all sides. GI had said it himself: He wouldn't be surprised if Vi was planning out the whole thing as an elaborate scum-play. Vi lynched. Nacho is NK'd; nacho claimed to have a lot to say about Jahudo. So, Jahudo, who CC miller, gets lynched at the last moment. However, not before I get put to L-1 and a sudden switch to a town read (on me). Antitown is a wild-card. He comes in occasionally, hard to track his thought. I'm not NK'd because, being perhaps the newest player, I can be controlled. GI-AGM know I have scum reads on both of them, and killing me would implicate them.
D4, we have a mass-claim. Mass-claimed used to take out CES, who also was for a Jahudo lynch. He was, quite frankly, and easy player to take out. Arrival of AGM meant people needed to hear from AGM before they had a read on him.
No kill, conveniently right after a town-roleblocker claim. LLD asks for it when she says "great, now agm will come and say he roleblocked scum." Sure enough, they target her.

It just..makes sense. The connections are there, the thought process is there, the confidence is there. I will wait for AGM, as Kdub has requested, but I think I know where my vote is going.

Unvote:No Lynch

[ToastyToast]

Mkay time for some LLD kill self-thought:
D1, LLD was under pressure; because of that she stayed largely out of the picture but was ready to lynch Seraphim when the time came; on him the whole time. Still, she also voted UK, me, and CES; seemed to have some questions for Vi as well
UK dies; It seems like they've played many games together, may have been killed for 1) being a major town read and 2)knowing LLD playing style. One wierd post D1 was when she said "Seraphim hangs to day. Vi hangs tomorrow. I was attacked for chaining lynches but she essentially did the same thing, just with different people. She also earlier stated that only one of them could be scum. Perhaps she thought Seraphim would flip town?
D2, Vi gets lynched. Vi went after LLD with the 'whole bandwagon ho!' thing, but there really wasn't all that much b/w them...; distancing? Interest in rhinox picks up here. Again, both her Vi and rhinox stances come off as just being dropped in every now and then. This is why I think if LLD is scum, then rhinox is scum with her. Anyways, she basically does the same thing she did D1, but a "lynch Vi today, Toasty tomorrow" thing. Then Nacho dies. Don't really see the reasons for that one, but, hey, kill that gives little info? I've never seen scum do THAT before
D3, its Jahudo. But not before LLD throws in a few "hey, i wanna lynch rhinox" instead, even though it had liek no chance of happening. Its also here where her view seems to change on GI, but she is adamant on UT/Reck/AGM town. Then antitown dies. Another strategic no-info kill
D4, its CES. She had already suspected him, but her stance (like all of them) sort of falls into the middle. Like, she's not the strongest proponent of any lynch bust she's always there to lynch.
No kill N4, and then a quick "oh, and her comes AGM claiming he roleblocked scum." Right, perhaps thats because you knew exactly what happened, and turning against AGM was the only way to get out of it.

In the end, I think the kill connections with GI and AGM are stronger. Rhinox's recent GI attack makes LLD-Rhinox scumteam more likely than Kdub-LLD scumteam. But LLD has played differently from when I played a game with her as scum; there is still always that constant worry that I just can't read her...."fool me once..."

[ToastyToast]

UNVOTE

Vote:AGM

for my mentioned reasons, for the cases and arguments given. I have weighed the options and feel this one has a higher chance of being true.
If you wish to question me, go ahead, but I think I'm right about this...

[ToastyToast]

I voted CES because he had a terrible claim. He then got hammered before I could say anything else. I was also on the Jahudo wagon, and it was quite apparent I preferred something else.
Your not lynching me is just odd. I called you out for NOT voting me, if you remember. And as soon as I did that you put down your vote. Scum know who town is, so situations when they "ZOMG MY MIND HAS SUDDENLY CHANGED! EPIPHANY" are just BS. Town votes for who they think is scum.

[ToastyToast]

Oh, btw. Re-look who's on that CES wagon. Not LLD, not Rhinox--just you, AGM, me, and Kdub. So, the two people who went along with it and the two who were pushing it.

[ToastyToast]

By the time I had gotten to this game, the hammer was done. And it was a quick hammer, you can't deny that. The 5 posts were all relatively around the same time, as I tend to go on site, comment on every game, then leave because I have other things to do.

[ToastyToast]

Ok, there was a bit of a gap b/w the posts. For, you know, that time I need to sleep.

[ToastyToast]

Me wanting Jahudo dead is BS, he was my big town read. I voted him because it was better than a no lynch. I also preferred an LLD lynch over CES.

[ToastyToast]

So I'm scum for supporting the death of people... you wanted dead?

Its motive, not actions, that I doubt.
I'm not even going to defend your "you had plenty of time thing" because 1)your latching onto a minor detail in my post and blowing it out of proportion, 2)your appealing to other players based on the action of another person at another time in another game 3)Real Life makes such posts reasonable 4)My posting tendencies don't determine my win-con in any game.

[ToastyToast]

Again, you are zoning in on something that is irrelevant to my case. Whether or not I had time to post something doesn't matter to my case. I'm just saying that the day should have lasted longer. I had no intention of un-voting a scumread, but I should have had the luxury to ask CES more questions. It was quick, and we got little information out of it for that reason. Besides, if you look at my player-vote connection post, the CES day is the day I use against you the least. So why you're attacking that one instead of the others is beyond me.

[ToastyToast]

Compare it to my one on LLD. There are simply more "coincidences" with you/AGM than they are with LLD/Rhinox/Kdub.
D1:You wanted to lynch Seraphim anyways. You seem to have this scummy habit of suddenly changing your mind when it looks like a lynch is apparent.
D2: Who else were we going to lynch?
D3:Your reasons for not lynching me are scummy; the way in which you went about not voting me, then voting to put me at L-1 are scummy. This whole "oh, maybe he's town, so don't blame me!" thing continued.
D4: If anything, that wagon makes u and AGM more likely to be scum-buddies.

The only thing that drew my attention away from you was the whole UK thing. I have been obviously anti-GI since D1, and UT was always another scum read. Ultimately, you are scummier than LLD, as is AGM. Naturally, I'm voting for those I find scummier. You can call it bollocks, but my train of thought just keeps pointing back to you over and over and over again. I can't ignore that.

[ToastyToast]

BAHHHHHHHH! I am so sad but I also don't' was know wats going onnn because it was a fun day.

[ToastyToast]

@Fate: thanks for town MVP, I guess....lol
@Kdub: Well if you read the dead QT, I wanted to kill AGM in order to get the bounty, so that even if he had been town my extra vote would have given us an advantage. Unfortunately, I had to figure out a way of suggesting it without drawing to much attention to myself.
Also, I find it strange that although you lurked, your posts all said "town" to me. Compared to both the AGM slot and the Vi slot, I don't think I would have seen you as the third scum.

Rage: GI, I hope we can come from this civilly,but I was quite pissed off early. The whole pope thing ticked me off as well, and I think if I hadn't been so angry early game my reads and cases may have been better. On the plus, at least you helped catch Vi. Everything else:not so much.

[ToastyToast]

I just read the behind the scenes thing lol
Fate, your pretty good at predicting what's going to happen. Also, I figured at least one of the main characters would be scum (Andrius told me not to fall for flavor :O) but I didn't ever consider that they could be the scum team O.o

[ToastyToast]

As for all the other 5-6 pages of BLAH BLAH back and forth - it's an embarrassment to what Fate calls a GOOD PLAYERLIST. This isn't the fuckin newbie queue - if you choose to ignore LOGIC, NIGHT ACTIONS, and LLD's repeatedly refuted logic and scummy play in favor of LLD's illustrious wordplay, then LLD deserves a scummy and town deserves to lose. not that im counting this game as a loss, I didn't read 60 pages and perform the most BRILLIANT ROLEBLOCK EVER to to put another tick on the loss record .

....BASTARD

[ToastyToast]

Okay, this is a bit of OMGUS

But why was I scuuuuummmmmmm

I asked and asked and asked and just never ever knew

Because you came off as extremely arrogant. I already said my view on you was definitely flawed because of how angry I got early on. I

wanted

you to be scum, and you used your whole 100% town status the way I think scum would use it. Not to mention that you were very much involved with CES, Jahudo, Seraphim, and the push on me.

[ToastyToast]

Jahudo's CC of Vi was a town-read, and his gameplay was...average when compared to other players. And Grencia made perfect sense for miller. Idk, I think that entire day (when Jahudo got lynched) was the most frustrating and the turning point.

[ToastyToast]

ah, just logged on and saw it...
Happy Birthday LLD!

[ToastyToast]

Just read the mafia QT. It was interesting! What made you guys think I was MORE suspicious after the Jahudo lynch?