Cowboy Bebop Remix [Endgame]

[GreyICE]

vote nachomamma

he knows why

Vote: Rhinox

Absolute chaos descends around you.

And you post this.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[GreyICE]

Now who else is being a pain in this thread besides our wonderful rhino?

UK is town. Based on Brotherhood. Try and succeed!

UT is null. Dunno.

I'm just going to ignore Kdub unless he comes up with some legitimate points.

I actually feel somewhat more comfortable with my vote now however.

If this post contained more waffles Seraphim could open a diner. Not liking him.

Bounties - Right now I don't think there's any reason to deal with it, but later on it might be worth bringing up

This is what I was referring to. She brings up the concept of bounties, and then immediately says that there's no reason to talk about them now.

Hmmmmmmmm.
Done that one as scum when I know something is bad for the town, but want someone else to take the fall.

Vi:

What do you think about the idea of having the bounty named in Fate's post claim, then deciding who our collective strongest town reads are and having them lynch the bounty to see what falls off that wagon? We have to do this day 1, period, because the scum:town ratio will almost certainly never be lower.

LLD:

*huggles*

'kay, no, seriously, some bounties can be achieved with as little as one lynch. If this mechanic benefits town, then it is likely to benefit the most on day 1. Are scum power roles more damaging than town?

Massclaim for flavor purposes:

Nooooooo. Fate like... hates that shit. If he made a game where we could flavor game it to find scum he'd probably shoot himself in the face with a nailgun.

Toasty:

I have a gut read of my own. You're scum. It's a good gut read. Flavor mechanics, IoA, setup speculation, and more waffles than Jahudo.

Unvote

Vote: Toasted

[GreyICE]

@GreyICE: how the fuck is that post waffling?

You

actually

feel

somewhat

more comfortable with your vote

however

?

Put an extra qualifier or two in there, I'm not sure it has enough conviction behind it.

[GreyICE]

@GreyICE: how the fuck is that post waffling?

You

actually

feel

somewhat

more comfortable with your vote

however

?

Put an extra qualifier or two in there, I'm not sure it has enough conviction behind it.

I'm not seeing it. What about your other waffler claims?

Nice clear posting:

I feel comfortable with my vote.

What you did = someone not all that comfortable with what they're saying.

Deciding to take my comment as a serious accusation rather than an offhand comment about the sentence?

Overdefensive.

Jahudo = good wagon.

So is Toasty.

[GreyICE]

Nice clear posting:
I feel comfortable with my vote. What you did = someone not all that comfortable with what they're saying. Deciding to take my comment as a serious accusation rather than an offhand comment about the sentence. Overdefensive. Jahudo = good wagon. So is Toasty.

You sure change your mind quite a lot for someone with substantial gut-reads. A vote on Rhinox, my "scum-slip," and now suspicion on Jahudo? Are you picking people who don't have a lot of votes on them for a reason?

I operate on gut reads and change my mind a lot?

News to me.

I pick on people who are scummy. You're scummy. You get picked on.

[GreyICE]

I backed off?

Tell me, where is my vote right now?

Oh.

Rhetoric. The art of speaking clearly. Logic. The art of thinking clearly. You are exercising neither.

[GreyICE]

If this post contained more waffles Seraphim could open a diner. Not liking him.

to

Deciding to take my comment as a serious accusation rather than an offhand comment about the sentence?

You use waffling as if it's scummy. Therefore, calling my statement waffling means that you believe my actions are scummy. All of a sudden, the comment becomes an "offhand statement". You're backpedalling, backtracking, what the fuck ever. I think it's backpedalling.

Logic has no place in a game of Mafia.

I'm backpeddling? It was an offhand comment. Your post was scummy.

One scummy post does not make you scum, as I will happily link you to game after game where townies make perfectly scummy posts.

This reaction? Yeah. That does it for me.

Unvote

Vote: Seraphim

Logic has no place in a game of Mafia my ASS. Logic is what I like to operate on.

[GreyICE]

The laughter sounds nervous to me.

[GreyICE]

I still don't get how his post was waffling or scummy. :/

Blah! He put like 18 qualifiers on it. It's a sign that you're distancing yourself from your own damn position. "Well perhaps he mighta sorta maybe I feel better however kinda."

Nah it ain't some "everyone who does it is scum" scumtell, but I've seen a it out of scum who don't want to take a firm stance on a townie more than I've seen it out of town who are truly uncertain that their vote is in the right place (especially when they're saying they feel better about their vote).

It then turns into this

Welp. I'm happy

[GreyICE]

Personal record obviously, fairly sure that other people have gotten lynched quicker.

Also, GreyICE, what about Toast, man? I'm sure you had like eighteen scumtells on him maaaaaan.

Scumtells are fine things, for pointing your suspicion. Scummy behavior is what reinforces it.

Not going back to toasty, right now I prefer you.

[GreyICE]

Vote: Seraphim

Claim?

[GreyICE]

Ooh, competing wagons. I think I'm on the right one.

Nacho's vote was bad. So he's probably town. Wrong. But town.

Tripod is leading the LLD wagon. With an RVS vote. He's posting on this website. But not in the game thread. As the wagon climbs to L-1. With his RVS leading the way.

That is not good. Not good at all. Tripod, if you hammer with "Fuck this honky noise" I am lynching you this time. Because you aren't the designated LyLo punching bag, I'm not playing for that team.

[GreyICE]

LainICE - Thoughts on Toasty?

Right now? Not getting a great feeling, but then again, I'm not getting a great feeling from you either. Too many good players in this game for me to start nailing scum hyper-quickly. His recent posts are much better, and Seraphim seems determined to investigate until he finds out that he's not the scum he's looking for.

Here, want a goofball?

Town:

Kitten
Jahudo
Rhinox
Nacho
Untrod Tripod

Neutral/More content

(This list is too long)
Kdub
Toasty - I really need to relook at some of these posts, I may be reading the situation wrong.
Cogito Ergo Sum
Antitown

Scummy

Vi - you're doing a lot of theory, which you're comfortable with, you're quoting other games and asking questions, which you're comfortable with, but I'm not sure you're scumhunting

Scum

Hello, my vote!

Witch

Lλδ - BURN HER

But no, seriously, probably town.

[GreyICE]

GreyICE, just to clarify, what was going on in post 105? You were calling Jahudo scummy for being defensive (over a post made by Seraphim?), but later put him on your town list. I initially thought you might have gotten Jahudo and Seraphim mixed up, but the discussion surrounding that post went on for longer than I expected without any comment from you correcting yourself.

I got two posters mixed up. It's why you don't post late at night.

Jahudo is pretty clearly town.

[GreyICE]

Interesting Vi. Good to see you joining the game. Liked the baiting, we do have to hear more from CES, but I doubt he'll take it. His lurking is too suspicious, IMHO, to be scummy - which seems like an oxymoron, but he's so obviously pushing agendas that he's either REALLY BAD scum or town who is doing something cute.

As for the Rhinox vote, I think it described it accurately. He showed up, made an random vote on the first page, yes, but without mentioning a damn thing that was happening (which is to say that there was no RVS), and vanished for pages. Best reason for a vote I saw by that stage.

It also is what confuses me about the crap wagon we're seeing. LLD's actions were so very obviously pro-town by immediately starting discussion and polarizing opinions that I'm shocked to see this wagon where it is. I honestly would have thought a player with half a brain would have commented on this already, but it seems to have slipped by the wayside.

In fact I'm pressed to name one scummy thing she's done all game. So I'd love for some of the jesters on that one to explain things to me.

Also want your opinion on it, Vi.

As for me being the counterwagon, what? You wanna wagon me, do it with style. Fuck, Seraphim hasn't even voted for me yet! Cue Seraphim going "oh noes, I will remedy that right now!"

[GreyICE]

Can I have the video?

[GreyICE]

Good to see you joining the game.

I've been here, tyvm.

[CES']

lurking is too suspicious, IMHO, to be scummy - which seems like an oxymoron, but he's so obviously pushing agendas that he's either REALLY BAD scum or town who is doing something cute.

I'm the one who made that argument the first time; see previous quote response. <_<
That's not to say I can't get him to post what I'd like to read on his own terms.

Rhinox vote - Not so. The world didn't start collapsing until after Rhinox made his first vote.

Bandwagoning Hoes on Bandwagoning Ho - I've already given my opinions. She looked like she was trying way too hard from the beginning through her CES vote, except for post 39 which I didn't think would likely come from scum. I was initially frustrated with her vote+claim request, but after reading into why she did it the only things that bother me about it are things that don't matter (i.e. the validity of some of her arguments vs. Seraphim).

Question: If LLD hasn't done one scummy thing, why the earlier?

Good point. I know LLD enough to know that's pretty much her style, so it doesn't peg me as scummy. It's just... bad.

Hence the

In any case, what is your view of the early game actions of LLD? Were they protown? What is your opinion on the wagon and the Seraphim counterwagon? If LLD is scum and Seraphim is town, what are the scummiest votes on the Seraphim wagon?

[GreyICE]

Huh.

Fair enough.

Hope there's a reason for what you're doing.

[GreyICE]

But what I'm not convinced you're doing is participating or scumhunting. Questions are awesome and all, but I don't see where a lot of this is going, and I don't see much followup.

Finish better have fucking fireworks and a brass band, is what I'm saying.

[GreyICE]

Happy birthday!

[GreyICE]

GREYICE LOOK HERE NAO!

Grey just curious how you came up with that thar scumlist, particularly

jahudo as town after earlier you called him a good wagon

, and UT showing up as town, where as earlier he was null. For that matter, you voted me, and now I'm town. And only 1 scum and 1 scummy. You think the rest of the scum are in the lurker list?

You mean, I have one person as scum, one person as scummy, and 4 nulls.

Do I think all three scum are in that list of 6 people? Is this such a bad bet?

Am I married to the list and will never ever ever change my reads no matter what happens? No. But if my reads change from here on out there will be reasons for it.

UT was null. His unvote was remarkably town. So, town.


As for my questions, here is what Vi has written about the early game actions of LLD:

So... You're guaranteeing that you're not the same alignment as UK, but merely implying that UK is scum...?

I don't feel my question was answered. Certainly not a high-caliber answer. The next few posts were all setup speculation, and then suddenly Vi is fencesitting and insisting that she's answered questions. I am not happy, oh no I am not.

3) What is your opinion on the wagon and the Seraphim counterwagon?

3) I haven't answered this question, which I pointed out.

I really dislike fence sitting when we have two early game wagons. I've seen it a lot when scum are sitting there watching two wagons. Sometimes one is a town wagon and one is a scum wagon, and they're deciding whether to bus. Sometimes they're both town wagons. From the way Vi is directing attention towards LLD and not doing the same for Seraphim, I was logically assuming that she felt LLD was scum and Seraphim was town.

And what was the response?

4) I don't think LLD is scum and Seraphim is Town,

nor have I given any indication that I do.

Well given you're focusing about TEN TIMES the attention on LLD as you are on Seraphim, I'd have said you gave fucking good indication you did.


Those questions weren't lazy, I was getting somewhere. And where I was getting is what to think of Vi based on Seraphim and LLD's alignments. And if LLD is town and Seraphim is scum, which is what I believe, then Vi?

Doesn't look good.

So now I can revise my list. Vi = scum.

Still unsure on the third, Rhinox. Sorry. Probably in the four names I listed as null.

[GreyICE]

@GI: Vi's alignment can't be determined yet. Don't tell me you've gotten lazy and not done your research.

Sorry I didn't tell you sooner, but it was amusing to watch.

You should EASILY be able to figure out why I'm saying this.

If you mean meta, meh, I read it. Don't care for meta overly much.

There's way too much attention at one wagon and way too little at the other for her to claim to be perfectly neutral on the issue. And if LLD is town and Seraphim is scum, there is a very, very obvious scum motive for that.

[GreyICE]

@GI: I don't care for meta myself. But in this case it kinda applies. Save your case for D2. I sympathize with Vi on this issue. I was basically in your shoes last game I played with her, so.

Oh I agree completely, if for no other reason than the game changes if my LLD and/or Seraphim read is wrong. And I hate lynching really interesting people early in the game

[GreyICE]

Anyone else notice how GreyICE has backed off on both attacks and defending? Get in here, man!

*shrug*

I'm here. I read over Vi's fireworks, I give em a 4 or 5 on the 'wow me' scale. I stand by her directing more attention and more questions to LLD, although I'll accept that it comes from pretty much the same reason I am directing more attention at Vi than Seraphim - Seraphim just has ceased to even amuse. I don't HAVE to make cases on his scummy actions, he's doing them in thread. If you want me to, I suppose I could whip out a flowchart and maps and explain why I am not fond of the last few pages, but lets just say my vote is not feeling migratory.

I should promote Kdub out of neutral and into town, and Nacho vanishing act is making me less comfortable with his space in the town column. CES is becoming conspicuous through absence (his ISO is a marvelous waste of 20 seconds) and Antitown is doing similar.

I'd swear unto god though, there's no way with this player list scum just happened to land in the hands of people who power lurk and get wagoned on day 1.

PEDIT: Antitown!

[GreyICE]

@Rhinox: When I voted you had one post in the thread. Yeah, my read on you changed. Your content level changed. As for the gut read, go check the thread. I was joking about his HORRIBLE gut read vote.

[GreyICE]

How is he town? HOW?!?

[GreyICE]

How is he town? HOW?!?

According to Vi and UK, it's a "meta" thing for him.

I've opened a whole mental file folder for certain things I'm noticing this game... and for a certain hypothesis I want to check on later.

I'm metaing a corpse out of his useless ass.

[GreyICE]

The reactions to CES are priceless? What? He's posted a grand total of blah in the thread. If I had a dayvig I'd have no problem dropping his ass.

[GreyICE]

The reactions to CES are priceless? What? He's posted a grand total of blah in the thread. If I had a dayvig I'd have no problem dropping his ass.

You'd be surprised what you can get out of reactions to unorthodox playstyles, especially when done by obviously experienced players.~
Bad players and scum, for instance, would move to policy lynch them. I don't think I have to go further.

Unorthodox is one thing. Poor is another. I can tell the difference.

[GreyICE]

Fate in MPM = Unorthodox
Naked voting and posting one liners = Poor.

[GreyICE]

Multiple Personality Mafia

Fate's style drew some great reactions.

Unvote, vote: Seraphim

Explain your reasons behind your votes on Toasty and Seraphim.

Bandwagonning ho!

P.S. Claims of my Jackishness have been greatly exaggerated.

CES, you might have to point out what I missed to me, because GreyICE says I'm stupid.

Hint: the meaning of one of the quotes you posted is heavily dependent on context.

Unvote, vote: Ladyµß

This is just fucking horrible.

There is a difference, believe it or not.

[GreyICE]

Scumteam is GreyICE, Toasty, and Jahudo. Remember that I called this now.

Town, null-town, town.

Yeah, I'll make fun of you for that one.

Well I would if I didn't think you were in the quicktopic with the other two scum and thus know exactly how pants that read is.

[GreyICE]

Why is it fucking horrible?

BTW, if I'm scum, who I am scum with? Think carefully before you answer.

Lessee, one gave the town information and drew reactions from people who were bothering to read what he wrote and those who were ignoring it or looking to jump on something scummy.

One gives the town naked votes and is active lurking. Pretty fucking big difference.

As for who you're scum with, looks like Vi. Third I don't know yet. If I had to bet, the list Antitown, ToastyToast, and CES. TBH, I'm thinking Antitown is probably town, as Antihero has vanished in general, so absence is probably a null tell, and Kats lurks pretty badly most of the time. Just too little content to be sure. Nacho is worth keeping an eye on, it's probably bad to be suspicious of players who are good at being quietly town when they're scum just because they are good at it, but I keep a better eye on them than someone who is pretty easy to read.

Definitely not LLD, Kitten, Tripod, Jahudo, or kdub, they all feel solid town. Rhinox I keep waffling on, a few things rub me wrong, but he just feels too sincere to be scum.

[GreyICE]

Why, because she voted for you for a bit?

Haha.

That's me laughing.

Haha.

[GreyICE]

What else would I be talking about? She voted for you and declared you scum, then as quickly as possible shifted her vote to me as soon as it looked like I had a viable wagon, then did an IoA train analysis from which she concluded nothing.


And from that I'm supposed to conclude you're not on a scumteam together? No.

[GreyICE]

Kitten - you suspecting and attacking townies on day 1 is pretty much a town tell. Or at least null. Why in all hells would I be suspicious of you for it?

[GreyICE]

You'd think I'd be a bit more subtle about the whole "why not this guy tell" thing if I was scum, especially after doing it the first time.

Grey:
You attacked Toast, then switched to me as soon as you could.
You've been attacking me, but have almost entirely switched your focus to Vi, while keeping your vote on the viable wagon, me.
Now I'm attacking you again and we're(Vi and I) scumbuddies.

You've literally ceased to interest. Run up the pirate flag and claim scum in the thread, it's the only fucking way you could be

more

obvious.

My vote is sitting on scum. You. I'm working on your buddies because eventually people will wake up and this one will go to lynch.

[GreyICE]

The thing that bugs me the most about GreyICE is how he passes everything off as "logical" when his posts have little of it. His defense for half his posts is "reason, which you don't have." This constant mention that he's allegedly good at making arguments isn't found in his posts, and he doesn't support his reads with facts. This posting habit makes me think GreyICE is trying to lead town with baseless information. This is a huge contrast to, say, UK, who is leading by asking questions rather than spouting new reads every so often.

Add that to his votes, but more importantly his sudden shifts in attention towards other players. He has only stayed on Seraphim because he realizes there's a chance for a lynch. When he saw that people weren't voting me, he moves to Seraphim. Ignore GreyICE's scum list, and these are the people he's called scum: Seraphim, Me, Jahudo, CES, Antitown, and Rhinox (says he's waffling on this one)

Jahudo's is important because he starts of by calling it a good lynch, then calls him town when Seraphim suspects him. He also places him in his town list. Where did this sudden switch come from? No telling from his posts.

CES and Antitown are easy targets because they've been lurking, but, really, doesn't Katsuki (of Antitown) always lurk? Not to mention the computer problems they mentioned. I've never played with CES, but the other players seem to be used to it. No one else has attacked him.

His focus has been on Seraphim for a majority of the game. This leads me to believe that if GreyICE is scum, Seraphim is town. Or vice-versa, but I'm in favor of a GreyICE lynch before a Seraphim one.

Um, wow. Talk about lying like a rug.

Seraphim - pretty fucking obvscum
You - Going back and forth
Jahudo - town
CES - either fucking terrible scum or fucking terrible town
Antitown - null, although lurking like fuck
Rhinox - town

Is it possible for you to be a tad more dishonest here?

[GreyICE]

Wait... you're in favor of lynching me... then if I flip town... lynching seraphim?

Unvote

Vote: ToastyToast

I fucking know I'm flipping town. And this is the first reason anyone has given me that Seraphim might. Holy fuck. FAILURE. It is a fucking option.

[GreyICE]

No, I think you did exactly what I said. You want to chain the lynches for day 1 and 2.

Die, scum.

[GreyICE]

I removed my vote because ToastyToast is fucking acting scummy as shit right now, and I'm surprised more people haven't commented on it. Seriously, look at that post. That is such a fucking scum post. It feels like scum celebrating about the day 1 bandwagons. "Oh if one's town I'll lynch the other!"

It's the first fucking thing in this game that makes me think Seraphim is town, because that post screams SCUM in mile high letters.

[GreyICE]

What is everyone debating about?

THIS IS A SCUM POST

The thing that bugs me the most about GreyICE is how he passes everything off as "logical" when his posts have little of it. His defense for half his posts is "reason, which you don't have." This constant mention that he's allegedly good at making arguments isn't found in his posts, and he doesn't support his reads with facts. This posting habit makes me think GreyICE is trying to lead town with baseless information. This is a huge contrast to, say, UK, who is leading by asking questions rather than spouting new reads every so often.

Add that to his votes, but more importantly his sudden shifts in attention towards other players. He has only stayed on Seraphim because he realizes there's a chance for a lynch. When he saw that people weren't voting me, he moves to Seraphim. Ignore GreyICE's scum list, and these are the people he's called scum: Seraphim, Me, Jahudo, CES, Antitown, and Rhinox (says he's waffling on this one)

Jahudo's is important because he starts of by calling it a good lynch, then calls him town when Seraphim suspects him. He also places him in his town list. Where did this sudden switch come from? No telling from his posts.

CES and Antitown are easy targets because they've been lurking, but, really, doesn't Katsuki (of Antitown) always lurk? Not to mention the computer problems they mentioned. I've never played with CES, but the other players seem to be used to it. No one else has attacked him.

His focus has been on Seraphim for a majority of the game. This leads me to believe that if GreyICE is scum, Seraphim is town. Or vice-versa, but I'm in favor of a GreyICE lynch before a Seraphim one.

THIS POST WAS MADE BY SCUM

Look at the list he artificially inflated. Look at the fact that I call CES bad (not necessarily scum) and say that Anti is not posting much and therefore null. NULL. Not fucking scum.

And then the last bit. The last bit. Where he sets it up so that he can push for a Seraphim lynch on day 2 if I'm town, or a lynch of me on day 2 if seraphim is town.

SCUM IS POSTING THIS.

[GreyICE]

Oh my fucking god, you are so bad at this Toasty.

My Quote:

As for the Rhinox vote, I think it described it accurately. He showed up, made an random vote on the first page, yes, but without mentioning a damn thing that was happening (which is to say that there was no RVS), and vanished for pages.

Best reason for a vote I saw by that stage.

@Rhinox: When I voted you had one post in the thread. Yeah, my read on you changed. Your content level changed. As for the gut read, go check the thread. I was joking about his HORRIBLE gut read vote.

As for Jahudo, I already said I meant Seraphim, I was fucking tired when I made that post. You didn't even read that. You are misrepping like fucking hells. You have to. You're backed into a corner now, because you made a post that's so fucking scum that I'm surprised that maggots aren't crawling out of it.

You sit there neutral until it looks like there might be a wagon on me, and suddenly you're CONVINCED that I'm scum? And then you CHAIN TOMORROW'S LYNCH?


No. Fucking. Way. Town. Does. That.

You are so fucking scum it hurts Toasty. Die in a fucking fire, you failure.

[GreyICE]

Vi, you're fairly obviously scum at this point in time, but I feel that I should address some of this garbage. First, reads.

*Drumroll*

They evolve. NULL. It means "I do not know." I do not know. When CES kept posting utter shit in the thread, he became scummy. At this point, he's contributed less to this game than Werewolf555 did to the last game I had to suffer in with him. Yeah, I'd endorse a fucking day vig, I have no idea how else I'm supposed to determine his alignment. What I do know is that despite being called on it, he is STILL doing nothing to help the town. That's fucking scummy.

I explained that any change in my reads will have reasons. You

don't ask the reasons.

You just criticize them for changing.

Now, theory time for the Vi - Town tries to determine who scum is. Scum tries to find reasons to lynch townies. You didn't ASK me why my reads changed. You just declared it scummy that they changed.

Toasty did the same only 100x worse because he lied and misrepped me in the thread. He has never attempted to find out my alignment, he just tried to find reasons that I was scum. And you? You did the same thing just now.

Now Seraphim looks better simply because of that Toasty lynch chain. Town does not lynch chain. Toasty saw an opportunity to guarentee two back-to-back town lynches.

That is the scummiest thing I've seen. He is 100% scum.

I'll be back when everyone decides to get their head out of their ass and vote for scum over town. And yes, Rhinox, I'm fucking pissed off. Scum is running the show, and the rest of you are sheeping scum or lurking, except for LLD.

[GreyICE]

Toasty did the same only 100x worse because he lied and misrepped me in the thread. He has never attempted to find out my alignment, he just tried to find reasons that I was scum. And you? You did the same thing just now.
Now Seraphim looks better simply because of that Toasty lynch chain. Town does not lynch chain. Toasty saw an opportunity to guarentee two back-to-back town lynches.
That is the scummiest thing I've seen. He is 100% scum.
I'll be back when everyone decides to get their head out of their ass and vote for scum over town. And yes, Rhinox, I'm fucking pissed off. Scum is running the show, and the rest of you are sheeping scum or lurking, except for LLD.

No I didn't. Those were all direct quotes. Direct quotes are what you said. Therefore, unless I changed the words, it is not a misrep. I took exactly what you said. The only quote you challenged was that of Jahudo, which you claim was a mistake. I don't have to believe such a claim.

You claim I want to chain lynches. I won't have to because your going to flip scum. I find Seraphim scummy, too. But I'd much rather lynch you over him.

Also, why are you attacking me on this point, when players are suggesting the opposite?

Ooh, you can take a quote out of context and pretend it shows my opinion.

I showed why those were out of context Toasty. If you'd read my posts, you'd understand the context. You haven't read them, you've skimmed them looking for something you can call scummy, something you can use to build your fake case.

As to why I don't want to lynch Seraphim, it is painfully obvious that despite his incredible play, he is town, because you were so very, very, very eager to chain the lynches together. And that is so very, very, very scum. You are so very, very, very scum. So good job! Not only did you claim scum in the thread (once people wake up and smell the rotting mess), you confirmed a mislynch as town!

Why the sudden shift in confidence Toasty? When did it switch to "well they're not scum together, and I feel better about ICE" to "ICE is definitely scum, and I don't have to lynch Seraphim obv obv obv?"

When I called you on lynch chaining? Oh yes. I do believe that's exactly when.

Do bother to die, obvscum.

[GreyICE]

GreyICE:
Again, why can't "chaining" lynches come from a townie that thinks only one out of a pair of players is likely to be scum? You've never had that opinion about two players in a game? I agree that if both you and Seraphim turn out to be town, then it looks very bad, but it seems like a mistake to assume that up front and conclude that Toasty is scum before you know Seraphim's alignment.

I've seen several instances where one of a pair of players must be scum. Cop claiming guilty result is an obvious one.

However here? It might be town to conclude that me and Seraphim are not scum together (although that's a read scum often get away with doing). But to say that one of us is scum when the other isn't? To leave open a wagon hop from me to Seraphim while saying I'm scum and saying we can't be scum together? What's the town motive? Wouldn't town take a bandwagon and want to see "well what's the scummiest vote on the wagon, since the wagon was town? Whose intentionally avoiding the wagon as if they know the outcome, who opportunistically hopped on, who gave themselves exit paths, who made the worst arguments?"

No! Let's lynch the OTHER WAGON!!!

How does that help us find scum? Oh. It doesn't. Does help scum get through two days safely and quickly if we're both town though - no need to evolve your reads, no need to explain why your mind was changing, just "Oh drat, Seraphim/ICE flipped town, ON TO THE NEXT ONE!"

Misrepresenting me than continuously lying about it? That chain? He's not town, kdub.

[GreyICE]

Holy balls. Did you just admit to selectively quoting me in the very first sentence of your post? As for assertions, great. I can easily prove you're skimming my posts. Did I explain how the Rhinox read changed from my initial vote? Yes. Did you suggest that I thought he was scum? Yes. Well, you're either skimming or you're lying, buddy boy.

As for my #1 suspect, well, I'm fucking done with Vi. After you, it's balls to the wall machine guns on Vi unless I get some very convincing evidence she's town. She's sat here and hemed and hawed and done a whole lot of fucking nothing in this thread. We're talking "PM from the moderator" type of evidence for me to believe that at this stage. LLD is town. So bugger off, you're not finding much support for THAT mislynch anywhere around here anymore.

You did NOT suggest, btw, that only one of the two of us were scum. You DISTINCTLY suggested that if one of us flips town the most logical thing to do was lynch the other one. As if it was perfectly natural, as if you'd have no other information at that point. Here's the quote again:

His focus has been on Seraphim for a majority of the game. This leads me to believe that if GreyICE is scum, Seraphim is town. Or vice-versa, but I'm in favor of a GreyICE lynch before a Seraphim one.

This isn't "If GreyICE is scum I sit down and reevaluate things." This isn't "Well is Seraphim is scum, GreyICE is clearly scum." It's "If GreyICE isn't scum, Seraphim is scum. OR VISA VERSA!" So if one of us gets lynched today (which seemed like a good bet at the time, we were the top two bandwagons) then lynch the other tomorrow!

I call you obvscum because you are obvscum. I'm just demonstrating it to people so they lynch you and we can all enjoy having a day 1 scum lynch.

[GreyICE]

And I explained why you were misrepresenting me when you did so. Pages and pages ago. You responded by scumplaining and lurking for a bit then hoping everyone forgot how bad that was.

Good night indeed. Enjoy the rope waiting for you in the morning. It'll still be here.

[GreyICE]

@Grey: How is that original vote any different than what he is arguing for Toasty? Right now I don't agree with your case and am more wondering if you could have made it as town or not.

After the vote Grey does go on to find Toasty suspicious for individual tells; arguing Toasty is misrepp'ing Grey's player reads and once again I don't think Toasty is wrong here. Grey had given those reads throughout the game. Just because it wasn't in his latest read list at the time doesn't mean he could easily change his reads, especially with his playstyle where its hard to tell what is changing his mind. One minute somone looks bad scum or bad scum, another they are in the pool of top suspect #3.

So Toasty looks alright. Grey could be scum. I need to consider Grey's possible motivations as hypo-scum for switching from Sera to Toasty. Kdub makes convincing points about Grey not worrying about self-preservation or staying on the largest wagon. Maybe scum would consider the Seraphim wagon stalled or in decline. What is the vote count now?

Um, when did I give those reads throughout the game? Did you read my reads list where I said Rhinox was town? And explained why he moved when he started posting more content? You are in there? I mean what?

As for Seraphim, if Toasty flips town, I really don't have a desire to lynch him. I tracked down other town games with him in them. He's about this 'levelheaded,' toxic, and abrasive in those. Meta? I don't think so. I can see a town motive, at this point, for what he's doing. I think he really is trying to generate reads. And toasty? He's a scumread that shines like the eastern star.

Plus I'm really starting to sympathize with his frustrated sarcasm. I didn't initially, but there's some really, really annoying scumbags in this town, and Vi and Toasty are two of them. I have no fucking clue who the third is. Antitown is clearly pro-town, and CES better explain his behavior on day 2 or 3, but he's just being too cheeky about being noticed. Untrod and Nacho have been the only one egregiously missing, but I'm still inclined to consider them both town. Tripod fairly obvtown after the unvote bit, and I have no idea why there's this recent wagon push (I'm inclined to think this town is bananas wagon-happy). I note Nacho's best talent as scum is having everyone get a town read on him then quietly disappearing.

[GreyICE]

@Vi - yah really. I'm not, not, not happy with what you're doing here. Whole lot of nothing. Reminds me of MangaofIllusion when he's scum (although a whole lot more readable, I'll give you that). Wall of vague suspicion and innuendo. It's town because it's LONG!

I have to go down to the fourth person on your Scum-Town list to find someone I'd even consider for scum, and that's only because I know he's good enough to fool me. kdub is below Seraphim, but you don't agree with my case on Toasty, and you were voting Seraphim a while back?

BULLSHIT.

I know you're nigh-lynchproof today, but you're not going to get away with this forever.

BTW, nice implication that I'll go after Seraphim, when really, I'm either seeing mod confirmation you're town, or I am gunning for you. Because after this day 1, nothing short of that is going to do much to change my mind

[GreyICE]

Knowing that I'll probably be hit with a rage nuke...
UK, in the time it took you to type out your schedule, which is completely irrelevant for us to know in the context of the game, you could have read through half a dozen greyICE posts... just sayin'...

-----------------

greyICE: earlier you said you tracked down some seraphim games and compared his play there to this game. Can you link me to the games you looked at and maybe even a couple examples of specific posts in those games that made you change your mind about seraphim?

Have you done the same sort of investigation into toasty's play? How about Vi's?

I just search people's recent topics. It's in their profile when you click their name. For Seraphim:

Scum:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 83&start=0
Town:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... lect=10072
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 90&start=0
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 37&start=0

Basically I don't see him as a self-righteous player which is resulting in false bravado and a lot of lecturing us. I don't see the same thing coming from his scumgame. He's basically starting to remind me of a better version of RobCapone (which ain't much of a compliment, but there you go).

Toasty, I can link you to one game:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=16526

But I didn't really do much more than skim it. Metagaming is a waste of time, he's opportunistic scum and he's caught.


Vi, I don't know, I don't care. She's good enough to fake whatever, it's motive, and right now she's acting like scum. You have to go half way up her scum-town list to find someone she thought was "probably scum."

[GreyICE]

Um, when did I give those reads throughout the game? Did you read my reads list where I said Rhinox was town? And explained why he moved when he started posting more content? You are in there? I mean what?

But what changed between Rhinox saying things that rubs the wrong way, to Rhinox town? And when you call CES terrible town or scum are you trying to say he's good vig fodder?

[/quote] I voted for Rhinox when he had one post in the thread. I changed my vote shortly thereafter. Is he right in absolutely everything he posts? No. Is he town? Yeah.

As for CES, I think the part where I said he'd be a great vig shot means that I'm pretty sure he'd be a great vig shot. If you've got no one else, shoot the person inputting nothing into the thread. Vi claims he has a 'master plan' but if so, it appears to be 'active lurk and annoy the piss out of people.'

Ok, is this a new opinion? I didn't see you talk about this before this post.

What, you mean the part where I moved my vote, and want to lynch Toasty Toast straight out of this thread? Or the part where I... wait, what? I want toasty dead. Seraphim feels more town to me, but mostly I want toasty scum lynched today. And no way in hell is Seraphim scum with Toasty. I'll sit down and evaluate tomorrow after flips, but my vote is sitting just where I want it to be right now. If you're asking me to take blind shots in a vacuum, then Toasty will flip scum, and Vi looks like the most likely #2.

ICE: I guess I'm just a little confused of your methods.

You say you don't care for metagaming, but thats basically why you're clearing seraph now when before you were sure he was town - pure meta. And I'm curious as to why you don't put forth that same level of investigation into your other suspects, namely toasty and VI. You've jumped around a lot, and haven't provided good justification for your changes in reads. Seems like you're making vague reasons up when pressed, which is something scum do when they don't actually have reasons. And come again regarding Vi's scum/town list? I don't see anything wrong with it

What? I have vague reasons why I think Vi is scummier than Seraphim? Do you want the breakdown? Or are you asking me who is the lynch today? 'cause that's Toasty. If you lynch Seraphim I'll be royally pissed.

Have you noticed no one is forming a counterwagon and everyone just seems content to lurk ? Yeah. This is a town wagon, Rhinox. Learn the fucking signs.

Toasty is scum. Want some fun quotes?

@Toasty: Let me put it this way. What good does it do town for your vote to be nowhere, at the moment? It's not like GI is at L-2 or something.
Why aren't you backing up your suspicions?

Voting someone isn't the only way to show suspicions. My no vote = not decided. If GreyICE says one more thing that makes me say "SCUM," then I'll vote him. For now, I'm still focussed on Seraphim but don't want him at L-1. Seriously, though, I don't understand your pressure on me to vote. You weren't voting Seraphim until recently, and Untrod Tripod isn't voting either.

For bonus points, go find out how active he was at putting "pressure" on Seraphim. Hint: He wasn't. Hint two: He's put no pressure on me. Has he done a single thing to move his 'case' forward? Or has he sat there and vaguely answered what I said and never asked me a single question? All he does is defend, even with his vote on me. He's never done a bit of active scumhunting, just 'warned' people.

I was about to do a scum list, but soo many people are null reads. I'll only post the people who are probably town and probably scum.

Town

Kdub:He posts little, but they all contribute. I'm moving him from a null read because of this.
UK: She's questioned pretty much everyone, and is actively scum hunting.
LLD: The vote on her isn't well thought out, and she isn't phased by the votes on her. She played the same way I would have in the given situation.

SCUM

GreyICE--Uses logic as a reason for votes that don't actually have much behind them; trying to lead town onto various people, then changing his mind when he sees that he doesn't have a chance.

Seraphim--he says he knows something about flavor, then doesn't tell us what he knows; Also,

Logic has no place in a game of Mafia

Seraphim has been very hostile towards GreyICE, which is why I think only one of them can be scum.

Untrod Tripod: Out of all the lurkers, he has been the least productive. Hasn't come up with anything on his own......apparently he voted for me as I'm writing this. You haven't asked any questions of me. I don't vote often, and like to remain consistent. Terrible reason for a vote.

Also, just to appease you, UK, I

VOTE: GreyICE

I suspect him the most.

This is his vote post. For extra super points, note how much of his case against me later is ex post facto.

A lot.

...these are the people he's called scum: Seraphim, Me, Jahudo, CES, Antitown, and Rhinox (says he's waffling on this one)

Can I call your attention to this list again?

Jahudo - lies.
CES - Still posting crap in the thread, and no one can say otherwise.
Antitown - Said he needed to post more. At the time true. Apparently "needing to post more = scum."
Rhinox - lies.


So... uh... what's he done since this crap?

Go through his ISO. Count the number of posts simply devoted to deflecting attention. Look at his vote on me again!

Also, just to appease you, UK, I VOTE: GreyICE I suspect him the most.

HE DID IT TO DEFLECT ATTENTION!

What the balls, people! He's not flipping town!

[GreyICE]

@GreyICE: I think you misread the quote in response to UK. I was questioning why she was pressuring me into a vote that I wasn't 100% sure about. And yes, much of my case is based on your reactions to the vote and to the case I began to form. The reaction just added to my scum-read, and thus I have become 100% sure of my vote. And I've already explained the list of people you've suspected clearly enough. You said it was a misrep, I responded by finding all the quotes in which you have suspected someone. This includes Rhinox, as an RVS vote isn't really an RVS vote at all if you place it down out of suspicion.

Question: What is your scum-read on Vi relying most on? The "uselessness" of his posts, his attack on you and agreement with me, or something else?

1) IoA
2) Setup analysis that really didn't end up anywhere, yet kept coming up for pages
3) Lack of commitment, favoring questions and probing over pushing scum and clearing town. Feels more like probing for a mislynch than hunting scum
4) Violent OMGUS response to me questioning him

For examples:

Lady Lambdadelta wagon:
*Untrod Tripod
*Antitown
*UncertainKitten
*Cogito Ergo Sum
*Seraphim
*Nachomamma8

UT and Antitown had random votes.
As mentioned before, I don't really agree with UK's reasons for voting LLD, though LLD validated the vote-based reason by jumping on CES soon afterward. I don't really mind LLD spending so much time defending the red text (since it DID become an issue) and as said before I got the opposite hunch on LLD's bounty talk.
lol, CES. As soon as LLD became a hot wagon he jumped over.
The wagon pretty much lingered there until Seraphim voted her for asking for a claim, etc., etc.

Of the four votes that were made based on anything LLD did in this game, the only one that really runs counter to what I was already thinking is UK's. Nacho trolls as every alignment, unless I'm mistaken.

This is a hell of a lot of lines of text that mean... uh... nothing. Nada. Nofink. This was a whole lot of empty space masquerading as town-like posting.

Second half:

Seraphim wagon.
*Kdub
(*ToastyToast)
*Vi
(*Cogito Ergo Sum)
*GreyICE
*Lady Lambdadelta
*UncertainKitten

Kdub called Seraphim on his flavorscumfishing, which I agree with. (This was before Seraphim claimed inside information.)
Toasty called Seraphim on not revealing his softclaimed information. It's not a bad reason for a vote, but most of his talk before, during, and after the vote were based on flavor and mechanics as well, so etc.
Vi voted Seraphim because of the flavorfishing and not doing anything else productive.
lol, CES.
GreyICE voted Seraphim for waffling and because Seraphim said that he was backpedaling.
LLD voted Seraphim because of his out-of-place jokeposts.
UK voted because... I'm not sure, aside from calling LLD a rolefisher for asking for a claim.

These UK votes actually look bad in retrospect.

Also and actually, I think I understand what CES is doing. I think it should be okay to leave him be for the time being.

It's a nice long bunch of HOT AIR. THERE IS NO CONTENT THERE. It's all

INFORMATION.

The only piece of analysis offered was "I think I understand what CES is doing." That. is. it. And does ANYONE else understand what CES is doing? NOT ME.

That many words devoted to telling me JACK SHIT says scum trying to give us reasons to vote, not town trying to figure out whose scum. Like 3/4ths of the ISO has that level of 'content.'

As for your list, lets go back a second. You keep defending what you said.

Do you admit that I don't think everyone on that list is scum, and had said so before you made your post?

Yes or no, toasty?

[GreyICE]

I admit that I misread your views of Antitown (and already did so earlier). You still suspected Rhinox, CES, and Jahudo. Whether or not the Jahudo thing was an actual mistake can be accepted/not accepted by any player, but I have read it as an initial mistake followed by a "clear town read" to distract people from it later.

It was a mistake. It was provably late at night, and I fucked two players up.

That leaves me down to Rhinox (after he made one post in the thread, which he later cleared up by making more posts) and CES (who no one has ever said why I should think is town, short of 'lol herp derp I see what he's doing lawlz'). And you can add Nacho for the amazing content he's added to the thread.

Wow, amazing way my scumlist is narrowing down to 2 definite reads and 2 "maybes."

But make me giggle. Assume for a second I'm town ('cause I am). What's the scummiest vote on this wagon? Do some scumhunting for me, I'd kind of like to see what yours looks like.

[GreyICE]

--- About

Vi

, specifically the case on me

Case on me:

1) IIoA, in re: wagon analyses
I did those specifically because GreyICE asked me to do them.
Read that again.

I'm being accused of doing something by the person who asked me to do it.

As for it being useless in the end, it depends on who you're talking to. I figured out what CES was doing (I think), and it was what got me to start seriously looking at UK. If nothing else, it helped me. :\

2) Setup analysis that didn't end anywhere
Saying that it "kept going for pages" kind of ignores the fact that it was there for... two posts. And one more because Nacho+UK asked about it. And it's not like it was all I was doing during that time.

3) Lack of commitment - Actually not a bad accusation.
I don't have a lot of solid Town reads in this game, as my previous post suggests. Most of the people ITT choose not to converse like normal human beings. I've had to repeat myself over the course of the game in order to get people to answer my questions, and it's still not working. Given that I don't think most people here are terminally retarded, I'm left to assume that people are deliberately ignoring them (or giving nonanswers). I don't ask BAD questions; if I'm wrong on that, someone tell me. So my reads are for 10/13 people more or less guessing their motivations. The only thing I CAN do is keep trying to press people.

It doesn't help that I'm not dealing with this thread in anything close to real-time; distancing me from rapid repartee, giving me the chance to forget what I'm doing, and forcing me to make these silly wallposts. That's not something that can be helped right now though.

4) OMGUS

*looks at no small part of my previous posts*
Raise your hand if you buy this.

1) Yes Vi, I would have liked to see some

analysis.

You instead told me

information.

What people said when they voted. I can find this by reading the thread. What you think of that? Lacking. It's been lacking in every one of your posts. It was what I was looking for. You're not doing any analysis of the thread, you're summarizing and popping me information. There was ONE line of analysis, maybe two if you count the CES line (I understand what he's doing... GOOD ANALYSIS). Everything else was "X said Y when they voted. B voted because of C." Yes, that's a good way to fill lots of space.

It has no substance. It's just space filler.

2) I'd be happier with it if you were doing more solid analysis this game. It just feels like the only thing you've really mulled over.

3) This is about the third time you've agreed with something I've said and then concluded I have no point at the end. Well... okay. Cool.

4) It's really funny 'cause I was pushing you before you voted for me. So, huh? My psychic powers are vastly overrated if you think I foresaw your vote.

[GreyICE]

Sure, I'll do better. A proper wagon analysis. Time to see where this goes.

I'll steal the lists from Vi since I like em (Hell, I stole my wiki page formating, so wouldn't be the first thing )

LLD:
*Untrod Tripod
*Antitown
*UncertainKitten
*Cogito Ergo Sum
*Seraphim
*Nachomamma8

Seraphim:
*Kdub
*ToastyToast
*Vi
(*Cogito Ergo Sum)
*GreyICE
*Lady Lambdadelta
*UncertainKitten

GreyICE:
{ToastyToast}
Rhinox
{Vi}
{(CES)}
(Seraphim)

Now lets look at something interesting here. Here's a list of names in common:

LLD&Seraphim

CES

LLD&GI

Seraphim
CES

Seraphim&GI

ToastyToast
Vi
CES

On no one's wagon:

Jahudo
*UT (Effectively UT had a hyper-RVS vote heading the bandwagon)

And ya wonder why I'm getting the wet willies about CES and would endorse a vig?

Anyway, the most opportunistic votes are obviously CES.That's not interesting, the great Vi has said that she knows what the not-so-great VI is doing, so we'll ignore that.

Now first, the Jahudo thing actually annoys me enough that it's about time we do a reread of him. And... well, his vote has been parked on UT like he's a lot, but other than that, he seems to feel all three are town. Since I don't disagree with him, I can't really find fault with his choice. I'll await Nacho's analysis, because Nacho has been known to amaze, but I'm not seeing it. Worst thing I can say about him is the vote is parked on someone I think is town.

Who does the scummiest vote flop from Seraphim to me?

Unquestionably the player my vote is sitting on. His reason for voting Seraphim:

My vote on seraphim is a gutread that I'm ready to change when I find someone to be more scummy. His soft-claim just struck me as something intended to confuse. Like "hey...I have information that may hurt the scum team, but I'm not going to tell you it TEEHEE"

His reason for voting me:

GreyICE--Uses logic as a reason for votes that don't actually have much behind them; trying to lead town onto various people, then changing his mind when he sees that he doesn't have a chance.
...
Also, just to appease you, UK, I VOTE: GreyICE I suspect him the most.

Does it take much to explain why my vote is on him right now? No. FUCK no. These were two horrible reasons for voting.

The other person who flopped, after finally laying down a vote for Seraphim when I got annoyed at the whole lot of nothing? Vi. With... basically similar reasoning to ToastyToast - to make me happy. With more words.

To wit:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2862700

Nice Seraphim vote. A++. You explained a lot about the... wait, what?

As for me being the counterwagon, what? You wanna wagon me, do it with style. Fuck, Seraphim hasn't even voted for me yet! Cue Seraphim going "oh noes, I will remedy that right now!"

I would actually love to see that. (Cut: And more than just the fake version.)

But since you asked,
Unvote: Seraphim
Vote: GreyICE (L-3 or something)

Would you like to enlighten me on those Town reads you threw out, and whether you're still standing by your Seraphim vote?

Goodvoting. As you said about CES, see who pokes the obvious.

Anyway, further wagon analysis, there is no way in the six purple hells that CES is scum with you. No scumbuddy follows his partner's votes with posts like:

Unvote, vote: Seraphim

Unvote, vote: GreyICE

So that was a good exercise, I'm going to have to assume CES is town who thinks you're town supersavant for some godawful reason, or is just doing some sort of interpretive dance in the thread. Possibly the latter. This also goes nowhere towards outing your partner, unfortunately. Except that I'm going to clear CES of being scumbuddies with Vi especially, and most likely toasty, unless he's a VezokPiraka alt. He may actually be cleared of being scum in general, even VP usually bandwagons a bit better than this, and if someone is bandwagoning worse than VP they almost have to be town. It's just too scummy to actually come from scum.

[GreyICE]

Scum tend to vote for town more often than scum. I'm town. Doesn't seem so surprising scum are voting for me.

Nice that you're still harping on your lie. Apparently you read a post somewhere that said "Consistency is town" so now anyone who ever changes their mind due to what's being posted in the thread you hop on when you need a mislynch.

It's bad scumplay. Your 'hesitant' vote you cast to appease UK has turned into a lifeline which you're trying to use to climb out here. It's sad because you know the light at the end of your tunnel says 'town' but you can't turn these tracks around, can you?

[GreyICE]

Sitting on something again. Cool beans.

Whatever... this game...

[GreyICE]

LOL@UK, You're not that intimidating

Anyway, I'm Alisa, Jet's old Girlfriend. I'm the "one that got away."

I have a 1-shot investigate, due to contacts through the bar I own. It will find members of the red dragon clan.

I have no bounty power. Most likely because I'm not a bounty hunter. Since the Red Dragon clan are not bounty hunters either it seems highly likely that bounties grant powers to town and town alone. Which is the reason I consider LLD cleared. Completely worthless past this point, but there you are.

It's a decent power, but not overwhelming, which is why I don't have a real problem claiming it. They can shoot me to off one cop investigation, or just cross their fingers and hope it misses. I'm using it tonight in any case, after which I will be vanilla.

[GreyICE]

/me facepalms

Unvote, Vote Seraphim

GI is town, much as I hate to admit it. I can say this with certainty. GI, why don't you try hard? Your entire game has been lackluster.

It really has, hasn't it? You've never seen me as town though. I tend to scumhunt through patterns and motivations. I'm looking for things that tell me there's a team out there.

Believe it or not, I actually developed one of those feelings that Seraphim will flip town. It's hard to describe it, there's an entire pattern to wagons. LLD/Seraphim SHOULD be a town/scum race. There's almost no one (besides CES) on both wagons. But neither feels right. LLD was such an evidently bad wagon that I don't see any patterns of scum comitting. Similarly, Seraphim is developing one of those feelings of "inevitable town mislynches." There was no real attempts to kick suspicion to other candidates, in retrospect his posts are more

terrible

than

scummy

, and no one seems that interested in distancing themselves from him, interested in earning town cred by voting for him, there's just no real pattern around him.

Once I clicked that he was most likely going to flip town, not scum, the pattern I needed to see was Toasty. Toasty wanted to set up day 2s lynch off day 1s. If you review its ISO it's pretty terrible. Put the context down that Seraphim is likely town, then stick that filter over what he's been doing in the thread. Toasty as a Vi buddy actually is quite plausible if you look at the thread.

The other thing, and this is personal, is that I seem to come with an on/off switch. One game I'm so town that a cop guilty gets the goon claiming it lynched. Here I get wagoned to L-1. It's just like... buuhhhhhhh... believe me, when I figure it out, I'll be sure to do the "on" and not the "off."

Vi: I'll be honest, the motivations behind the posts seem scum. The sincerity seems raw town. I can fake sincerity well enough that I'm not overwhelmed by it, and once I clean it aside, the motivations aren't great. But yeah, Toasty is a LOT stronger of a read.

P.S. Nacho is obvtown Has been from the start, but I am EAGERLY AWAITING this case. I'm hoping like hell it will make this game make sense to me.

[GreyICE]

I disagree. While we've both been there, I don't think it's a universal thing.

Secondly, it is pretty much absolutely nothing GI

did

that makes him town. It's something I have, obviously.

Thirdly, scumtells are dumb, scum intent is better, and Seraph and GI were leaking it. Clearly I was wrong on GI. I refuse to believe I'm wrong on Seraph.

Want a trip down memory lane? CooLDoG, HavingFitz, AND Katsuki?

Hell, all the signs that they'd flip green were there. No counterwagons, no pushes, everyone ambling along to their death. CD got out of it by having a confirmable power, Fitz got out of it by eating the power, and Katsuki was a dumb lynch. I might play bad as scum, but hell, I know we were playing to the signs.

Leave the tunnel and wake up. We're being nudged into lynches on town. If HavingFitz was town, Seraphim is 10x better than that.

[GreyICE]

Dude.

I have an investigate.

I can catch all sorts of scum.

Or they can shoot me.

That'll leave many candidates.

[GreyICE]

Yep, Jahudo! That's pure, unrefined setup speculation.

However it's not very far out. Bounty hunters get bonuses for capturing bounties. I am not a bounty hunter, ergo I get no bounties. This seems totally consistent to me. Moreover, no one has argued this... and we've had several softclaims so far. Because of this, I have a feeling bounties may be town-tilted. Now mislynches? Those aren't.

LLD: Fuck, I've been cheering this one 120% for pages. Make me happy, oh so very happy Nacho's speculation that Toasty is today's bounty is interesting (I was reading those posts as straight scum 'oh I have no IDEA who the bad guys are' and 'oh well it's not one of us' posts, but that actually makes sense).

[GreyICE]

Wait, what?

I can actually talk about this one since I just finished it:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=16523

I was claiming a fucking Cop Guilty on Ray Frost. Yeah, I admit to enjoying the hell out of that one AND not actually having to put a lot of thought into it. I'd prefer to put thought into this game, it's a little harder than a game with one scum left where the moderator sent you a PM "RayFrost is a member of the mafia."

[GreyICE]

I'm honestly in stall mode here until I see Nacho's "case that will blow me away." 'cause I'm very, very prepared for this one. He's been bouncing up and down for pages with what's so damn cool he wants to share it, and I wanna see it.

Besides, Vi might hate cops. And I do too, honestly. I will say though, getting that guilty in your inbox night one? That just feels goooooooooddddd.

[GreyICE]

Wait for LLD's case. She's obvtown. Lynch me, UK, and Nacho before you lynch her. She claimed having a bounty power that takes ONE GODDAMN bounty when I have a fair idea the scum don't get them at all.

Also play, also what nacho said, also she's obvtown and tends to live in tunnels. Not that her tunnels are wrong, if I consider my last newbie game with her, she had one scum down to a two player matchup when I pegged em both as town.

[GreyICE]

You mean. The result. Of an investigation. Is what clears me?

THE FUCK?

Explain, plox.

[GreyICE]

I'm probably going to unvote GreyICE(sad that there's no point in making a giant post but I guess that's just the backlash for my procrastinating) but I want to play Devil's Advocate.

GreyICE: why are you so sure that the scum is the Red Dragon clan?

Well I guess Fate could have given me a one shot investigate that determines if someone is a member of a specific town faction.

A town faction that contains Vicious, the villain of the series.

And is a crime syndicate.

*beats head against wall*

I would suppose, from the flavor, that my investigate is not going to find a serial killer if there's any, but Red Dragon clan is scum.

[GreyICE]

You mean. The result. Of an investigation. Is what clears me?

THE FUCK?

Explain, plox.

It doesn't clear you, but if you get a scum result on someone, and we then lynch them because of it...A town flip=LIES, u get lynched. A scum flip, then I'd be willing to say your town.

If you get a town result, you could just be trying to clear someone. So, my opinion does to some extent rely on the results.

So your rationale is that I might claim a fake guilty on day 2 to get a mislynch.

Or you're setting up WIFOM in case I investigate you.

Dee dee dee. I can make a bet...

[GreyICE]

Um... my power clearly finds members of the red dragon clan.

The best I've got here is that you just claimed miller. I can't figure out any scum reason why you'd claim that, but I can't figure out any sane reason that I'd have a power that tells me someone is a member of the Red Dragon clan and have them, I dunno, just be a random subset of the players. That feels like a particularly bastard way to cause two mislynches in a row. Fate's setup isn't gonna fucking blow that badly.

[GreyICE]

...

Fucking goddamn it. Every way I wrap my head around it, this doesn't even make sense. There is NO reason for a 1-shot investigate to come in a town with a miller. It's like 'haha, your already mediocre power is crappier.'

And Seraphim has to be worried I use it on him.

But the flipside is that I stated I don't suspect him, I'd see me as MUCH more likely to use it on Toasty or Vi (because I was, goddamn it) and I don't want to lynch him today.

Anyone else wanna claim Red Dragon clan here?

No one else speaks up, I think we

might

be dealing with a miller.

[GreyICE]

UK: Why the hell would someone claim

scum

in the thread? First Red Dragon Clan flip we get in that nice glowing red would end him.

[GreyICE]

Unvote, vote: Jahudo

ANYONE WANNA EXPLAIN WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE?!?

[GreyICE]

I SWEAR I WILL PITCH A SHIT FIT IF WE LOSE TO SCUM CES HERE

[GreyICE]

I IS NOT REASSURED

[GreyICE]

Hell I know town UT. I studied him. He was my absolute strongest and most understood poster in brotherhood. I groomed him, dammit. I get bored as scum and wander off into the bushes and pee on the trees, but I did spend time studying one poster that game more than any other.

Why do you think I think he's town on nigh-zero evidence? Preach to the fucking choir.

I wanna know scum. I think it's Toast and Vi. You promised cool things on Jahudo.

[GreyICE]

DAMMIT NACHO THE DRAMATIC TENSION IS KILLIN ME

YOU GOT THE AUDIENCE

ON THE EDGE OF THEIR SEAT

[GreyICE]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^6

[GreyICE]

@kdub: Red Dragon Clan is scum. Since we're now flavor speculating, I actually went and reread the flavor. Red Dragon Clan is trying to take over mars after eliminating their rivals, and we're trying to stop them.

I'd accept a miller, but RDC is absolutely, completely, 100% scum. My investigate will find scum, or confirm town, barring Serial Killer and Miller nonsense. If I have a guilty tomorrow, it's on scum.

[GreyICE]

Well... yah. Welcome to my world. The only thing I can think is that he just claimed Miller.

[GreyICE]

If anyone hammers.

I know where my investigation is going.

Feel free to shoot me to prevent it. I'm sure people can figure THAT one out.

[GreyICE]

@Toasty: No, my claim. The one that cleared GI in the first place.

I think you're going to have to link it. Lost, sorry.

Toasty - It is indeed What The Fencesit.
What about that falseclaim you said was so good? And wouldn't you lynch someone who claimed a false guilty anyway?

Its hard to disprove. Scum has a lot of options which such a claim, and he gets cleared as town. Of course I would lynch someone who claimed a false guilty, thats the point! Of course, this whole RedDragonClan possibly being a town group complicates matters.

NOOOOOO

KITTEN RDC IS THE SCUMGROUP CONSIDER THIS POST IN LIGHT OF THIS KNOWLEDGE.

STOP DEFENDING YOURSELF START LIGHTING THIS ON FIYAH

[GreyICE]

Hmm.

Dammit Jahudo, you cut me ruining the effect. My Hmm is directed at GI.

Also, Jahudo, flavor is more important than it looks like.

KITTEN


Think about it this way. You're town, you've been tunneled for, IRL days by someone you think is scum. His claim confirms him town, with a one shot investigate. How do you react?

NOT LIKE THAT

WHAT DO YOU THINK MY INVESTIGATE WILL FIND?

IT AIN'T EVEN NECESSARY. TAKE YOUR VOTE OFF SERAPHIM BEFORE TOASTY QUICKHAMMERS, AND PUT IT ON THE SCUMBAG

[GreyICE]

NOT SERAPHIM

TOASTY

DEAR LORD UK READ THAT POST

HE'S SAYING "WELL EVEN IF I'M RDC IT DOESN'T MEAN I'M NOT TOWN."

HOLY FUCK LYNCH IT

[GreyICE]

UK YOU'VE BEEN TUNNELED AS TOWN BY TOWN

WHEN YOU FIND OUT THEY HAVE AN INVESTIGATE ARE YOU RELIEVED OR DO YOU START FLAILING?

WHAT IS TOASTY DOING?

GODDAMN IT LYNCH IT I'VE BEEN SAYING IT FOR PAGES

[GreyICE]

Now I get it.

Thing is, Seraphim lynch will ALSO lead to scum, I'm pretty sure. And if it doesn't we'll have informations to play with. I don't really see Toasty flailing so much as persisting in his uselessness.

HE'S SCUM NOT "LEADING TO SCUM," THAT'S INFORMATION

[GreyICE]

DAMMIT UK

[GreyICE]

Vi, my role heavily implies Vicious is scum. But I don't trust it because it looks like flavor. I can't imagine you having anything in your role pm that is so clearly not flavor and so clearly can be trusted as accurate.

@Grey: Does your power give a result of "Red Dragon" / "Not Red Dragon" or something like that?

It says that I will find out if they're a member of the Red Dragon clan. So I'm guessing yes.

It's possible we have non-RDC scum, though I would bet serial killer over godfather just based on the fact this town smells power-heavy (and there's only so many investigation immune roles before giving people the investigate is just bad game design). We

may

have RDC town. The 'refuge in audacity' concept is slightly ridiculous, since me and Nacho have both been strongly saying Seraphim not-scum, so claiming Vicious the villain right now would be one of the weirder scum moves I've seen.

[GreyICE]

Besides, Seraphim honestly strikes me as smart enough to understand the basic Miller principle - you lynch them the day before LyLo. Especially the way he's acted.

I'm gonna wait for Nacho, and I retract my previous claim. I'm not fucking investigating anyone who hammers. This ain't a newbie game. Anyone who hammers here is scum.

I'll investigate from a different pool. We can lynch the person who claimed scum anyway. I'm not blowing a one shot on a sacrifice vote from toasty or something.

[GreyICE]

And I want to see Nacho's case before the day ends. So hammers come from scum.

[GreyICE]

Well, convince me then, GI:

A) How is Toasty flailing anymore than his relative uselessness before this?
B) What makes Toasty scummy rather than just bad?
C) What makes Toasty a better candidate than Seraphim?

Answering these questions will greatly elucidate things, and POSSIBLY compel me to listen to you.

Well believe it or not, Vi gave good answers.

A)

The COP. You're being tunneled by a Cop. What is his response to me being called confirmed town as a cop?

1) Question why you're town and Nacho is town
2) Once that line of attack fails, dies, and drops off the planet, subtly hints they should lynch me as a scum test if I get a guilty (note: been tunneling him all day)
3) Then jumps like a dying Orca onto the insane notion that RDC is town.

How do you THINK he's gonna cop? RDC? YEEEESSSSSSSSSS

B)

What makes him bad, instead of just scummy? Here's my reaction, as town, to learning my #1 suspect and the guy who is tunneling me like all hell is a confirmed-ish town claimed cop

1) Aww darn. I liked that one (close enough)
2) Well at least I don't have to put up with that tunnel all game.
3) Someone think about doctoring him tonight

To be clear, I don't want a doctor. I think there's better shots than me, and I smell a serial killer. I really, really do. Too much 'information' for it all to be flowing from scum. Protect people who might have good power roles, my power will likely confirm something we're already guessing.

Oh my god, he's been scum as shit all thread, UK

C)

Vi just put Seraphim at L-1

Kdub

-

RDC is the flavor of our scum team

. Other possibilities don't exist, given my investigate, given the flavor, given the game. However, I would accept the idea of a RDC miller, and {WARNING GAMING MOD} this is exactly the sort of thing Fate might throw in to fuck with us.

Are we asking for a Seraphim full claim, including flavor on the Red Dragon Clan entry? I am in favor.

[GreyICE]

@UK: Was that at me? If so, about what?

[GreyICE]

C) Vi just put Seraphim at L-1

You haven't checked a vote count recently, have you?

Unvote: ToastyToast
Vote: Seraphim (L-1)

You're right, I have no idea what the VC is. I just read your posts. If someone unvoted, well, okay.

@UK: My god, you want me to hand you the cases? The posts are the posts. Lets just see the important responses.

1) http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p2883577
Kind of townish, rather null imho

2) http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2884358
The result clears me... I think this is a pretty clear "plox don't investigate me" as well as a way to put some suspicion on me.

3) http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p2884417
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2885068
You mean I get lynched if I claim cop with a guilty on an innocent townie. Why would you even say this? Well, he wants to keep suspicion on me. ANYONE in this thread have any question that claimed cop guilties on innocent townies get you lynched? The only reason to post this is to keep suspicion on me.

4) http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2885662
OH HO! Maybe RDC is TOWN!

Is this laid out clearly enough for you? He so knows what the result of my investigation on him would be, and it's not innocent.

I doubt I'll even bother at this point. Cop guilties on claimed scum are worthless. I'd rather clear some of this bloody WIFOM off our plate.

4)

[GreyICE]

BAH

I HATE CASES

I'M REALLY GOOD AT CASES WHEN I'M SCUM. EITHER YOU SEE WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT OR YOU DON'T. THE LINKS WILL HELP YOU. CASES ARE FOR SHOVING VOTES AROUND, WHEN YOU REALLY NEED THEM TO MOVE. EITHER I'M KICKING DUMB TOWN AS TOWN OR KICKING DUMB TOWN AS SCUM. THIS GAME IS SEVERELY LACKING IN STUPID, I DON'T SMELL ANY OF IT.

[GreyICE]

...
...

THIS CLAIM WAS LACKING IN THE FUCKING CLAIMING DEPARTMENT

[GreyICE]

THIS IS RELEVANT

[GreyICE]

SERAPHIM, HERE

LEMME FILL IN THE BLANKS FOR YOU

"You know there are other members of the Red Dragon Clan, but you do not know who they are. Each night you may do XXXXXX."
PART YOU MISSED: "You win when your faction composes 50% or more of the town"
RDC PM: "You know there is another member of the RDC who is cut off from your communication networks."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

BEAUTIFUL

[GreyICE]

TOASTY... IF WE DON'T LYNCH YOU, YOU'RE RAW VIGBAIT

[GreyICE]

I HAVE CONFIRMATION
THAT RED DRAGON CLAN ARE SCUM FACTION
I MIGHT BUY ONE MILLER, BUT I'M NOT BUYING RDC MIXED IN WITH TOWN

THIS IS IT. AND THE MILLER IS VERY SHAKY TO ME.

MAFIA TRAITOR WHO CAN'T READ HIS FUCKING ROLE PM MAKES A LOT OF FUCKING SENSE GIVEN THE POSTS ABOVE

[GreyICE]

WE WON'T SEE ANY MORE RDC CLAIMS UNLESS ITS A SCUM CLAIM IN THE THREAD. I WOULD BET HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS ON THIS HAPPILY. I ASKED PAGES AGO AND NO ONE HAS SAID "YEP THAT'S ME."

RHINOX... EXPLAIN:
#712
#715
#716

PEDIT: IT IS IN MY ROLE PM WHEN I FUCKING CLAIMED IT GODDAMN IT. WHAT THE FUCK? I ASKED PAGES AGO IF ANY OTHER TOWN RDC WANTED TO STEP FORWARD. NONE DID.

IT. IS. NOT. A. FLAVOR. INVESTIGATION.

IT INVESTIGATES ALIGNMENT

[GreyICE]

Rhinox.

How many people have come forward and claimed they have role related information that RDC are scum? Vi. Seraphim flips town, and it looks REALLY BAD for someone whose already under some pressure.

How many people have come forward to say RDC are town? Seraphim. Who just made three of the biggest "HERP DERP" posts I've ever seen in the thread. Including:

Vi, my role heavily implies Vicious is scum. But I don't trust it because it looks like flavor. I do, however, have something NOT in the flavor for my role PM that says I'm a member of the Red Dragon clan. It's not an ability or faction indicator however.

HOLY CRAP READ THIS POST

[GreyICE]

Haha!

Okay.

So we hang Seraphim.

And Vig Toasty.

This day rocks. BTW, Vi... are you a member of the Red Dragon Clan? Or do you investigate as one? I'd like a little flavor.

[GreyICE]

Third party lyncher.

Hell, this is a fate game. Of course we lynch third parties. It's what he'd do. But Seraphim is telling the truth.

Vi is not currently a member of the Red dragon clan, but will investigate as one. Okay. No wait, Vi is scum.

Toasty is obvscum.

Nacho thinks Jahudo is the buddy who doesn't fuck up in this thread.

[GreyICE]

LEMME STATE THIS FOR THE RECORD.

VI IS SCUM

AND I DON'T GIVE A FIG ABOUT MILLERS.

[GreyICE]

Obv fakeclaim.

Was obvious. Is okay. I can prove it, but I don't feel like doing it today.

I wanna lynch toasty. I'm okay with leaving the claimed third party alive for now.

[GreyICE]

I really don't have a problem lynching you once two scum flip, btw. That should give you a 2/3 chance to win, and we won't be caught by third party bsery.

Though a serial killer would change that.

[GreyICE]

Yes

[GreyICE]

Is okay. No arguments about Vi today. I wanna make them tomorrow.

I want that toasty thing dead.

[GreyICE]

BTW, Vi... are you a member of the Red Dragon Clan? Or do you investigate as one?

I investigate as one, because people assume I'm still in the RDC.

For the record: Vi is claiming not to be in the RDC, but investigates to cops as one.

The end. Vi is fine today.

[GreyICE]

Though is almost definitely the lynch tomorrow, mind you. Because I think Vi messed up bad.

[GreyICE]

Vi is not the lynch today. I hereby decree it so. LLD has spoken the red truth.

Toasty scum scummy, Jahudo not seeing so much.

Though Toasty... Jahudo... Vi.

Kinda like it.

[GreyICE]

No. Someone mighta missed it.

I WANNA LYNCH TOASTY

[GreyICE]

I can solve the Vi question tonight. You'll know tomorrow.

No one vig him.

Shoot Jahudo instead or something. I wanna see Nacho case.

[GreyICE]

you sure telegraphing your investigate is such a great idea greyICE?

Yes

[GreyICE]

I'm seriously tired of Vi.

[GreyICE]

[GreyICE]

And we're done.

Vi is confirmed scum.

Jahudo may be miller. Most likely scum. We can find out first thing tomorrow.

Seraphim is most likely Vicious-Lyncher. He does NOT have the 1-shot vengeful kill, that's a load of bollocks if I ever fucking heard one, but he's a third party, so lets not fucking lynch the third party without a killing role when we have confirmed scum in our targeting scope.

Toasty is most likely scum.

Unvote

Vote: Vi

Everyone on the same page?

[GreyICE]

Um, UK, Vi is going down.

Why wouldn't Jahudo counterclaim for the "confirmed-town" status? Dun worry, I'm not caring about someone Vicious framed either. Remember that.

It doesn't matter at all. If someone is counterclaimed outside of LyLo, 80% of the time the scum is the one claiming.

Do you really think Jahudo-scum would counterclaim Vi-town before Nacho even made his case?

Jahudo-scum might counterclaim Vi-scum before Nacho made his case.

[GreyICE]

I have run out of pro-town reasons
To wait until someone with an investigate claims
To claim miller

[GreyICE]

@GI: You have completely failed to answer my question. Why?

That answered your question.

I have no pro-town reasons to wait until now to claim miller. Thus Occam's razor doesn't like any of this nonsense. It is okay.
Vi's claim makes balls zero sense at this point, and we should lynch.

Seraphim is doing his best to get himself killed but his entire story adds up.
1) He comes in here hostile and aggressive because he has the worst role of all time - or so he thinks. A lyncher who doesn't even know who his target is. Setup speculation, attempts to get claims, etc. ensue
2) It's revealed RDC is scum. Why his reaction? RDC know they're scum (look at Toasty's WIFOM approach - that's scummy). Seraphim just doesn't believe it. Lyncher on scum? Huh?
3) Math begins to add up. Lyncher on scum is not an anti-town role per se. Just one bad for the town in the same way as Beautiful princess (we randomly lose a vote and a player when we lynch Vincent or Vig him).
4) He claims venge kill and other cool shit because he's scared we'll kill him (which is anti his win condition).

Toasty is scum #2. #3 is... huh. Some theories, but it's obv not Seraphim.

I promise to explain on Jahudo tomorrow.

[GreyICE]

@GI: Are you claiming that you specifically get alignment through RDC flavor, as in it specifically says such? Or are you conjecturing because "Fate wouldn't put in a useless one shot cop"?

They're scum. Oh yes.

Vi is scum, vote Vi.

CES made first useful contribution of game by agreeing with me. Should do it more, would make him much less scummy.

Waiting for a PM from Fate.

[GreyICE]

Scum wanna lynch seraph over Vi.

Today's Lynch:
Vi

Vigbait:
Toasty - #1
Seraphim - #2 (losing a third party like... meh)

PM from moderator status:
Not yet

[GreyICE]

Nope.

If you vote Vi it's a good bus.

I favor you bussing here.

[GreyICE]

@GI: You've basically gone off the deep end of tunnel vision and into suboptimal VI zone. You'll excuse me if I proceed to ignore your posts until you start being sane again. Sorry~

Cease ignoring my posts.

Start voting Vi.

Trust us. There are reasons.

Besides the fact Vi is obvscum.

His scumbuddy thinks I won't investigate him. Does he suggest that we lynch Vi and I test Seraphim, who claims not to be RDC?

Oh no. That would mean lynching scum, and then they can't just NK me.

[GreyICE]

Toasty, who is your scumread on the Seraphim wagon right now?

I can see Vi-scum, but only if I'm incorrect about Seraphim
Rhinox is null, at best.

@GreyICE: Vi claimed miller. Seraphim claimed miller, THEN third party. Which is more suspicious?

JAHUDO COUNTERCLAIMED MILLER

VI IS SCUM

MY GODS

[GreyICE]

OKAY SCUMBAGS IN ORDER

TOASTY
VI
JAHUDO

SHOOT EM ALL

I WILL FIND OUT WHAT THE HELL VI IS HIDING TOMORROW
TOASTY WILL BE INVESTIGATED IF FATE FAILS ME

[GreyICE]

OH FUCK IT

KILL VI VI SCUM

JAHUODO SCUM NEEDS QUESTIONING. IGNORE LAST

TOASTY DIAF`

[GreyICE]

I wish that would happen, but it most likely want.

Just make me a promise that you will tunnel the hell out of Jahudo tomorrow if I die tonight.
Trust me: I saw his scuminess in the stars.
And the stars are never wrong.

JAHUDO SCUM CAN BE PROVEN NACHO

I AM GOD

I SEE ALL

[GreyICE]

VI IS OBV SCUM OBV SCUM OBV SCUM

LYNCH IT

THIS MAY BE MY LAST POST IN THE THREAD, UK IF YOU DON'T READ THIS AND DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT I'VE POSTED I WILL COME BACK AND SMACK YOU IN THE POST GAME.

LLD TOO

[GreyICE]

JAHUDO NICE QUICKHAMMER, SCUM, WE SHALL FIND OUT WHAT YOU ARE HIDING

[GreyICE]

Having fun GreyICE?

MIGHT ONCE YOU REALIZE HOW BADLY YOU FAILED ON VI'S CLAIM

I ASK YOU TO TRUST ME BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

BRICKS

[GreyICE]

TOASTY IS OBVSCUM NACHO

ANTI IS GONE FROM EVERYWHERE

KITTEN IS LIKE JETHRO TULL TOWN

[GreyICE]

Vote: Vi

Bounty powers are in brackets apparently. What are these complex mechanics Fate? Why must you make my life tough?

Oh and hi. I'm today's bounty. Cool story, bros

[GreyICE]

Yeah. And it wasn't a cop thing. It was a one-shot hider.

I just prefer claiming hiders as cops. It's funnier.

But now both halves of Vi's claim are counterclaimed, so screw Vi, Vi dies.

[GreyICE]

Toasty is scum.

Rhinox is stupid.

Wow.

[GreyICE]

I mean seriously Rhinox, want me to go into all the ways you've failed? Or can you add 2+2?

Hint: Kitten+Today's bounty. Anyone wanna counterclaim my role? Thanks.

[GreyICE]

I admit I possibly should have done better than read my role name and flavor text, look at the pretty picture, and ignore the mechanical bits at the bottom of it.

Or open my PM before claiming, since I knew the role name and flavor from memory.

[GreyICE]

You really have to see Fate's PM to me when I sent him my hider action though. I'll post it after the game. Was classic.

[GreyICE]

If it involves that section at the bottom labeled "bounty reward" I really didn't scroll past the picture.

You assume way too much about me reading these things, Rhinox.

kdub is town, you're dumb.

[GreyICE]

Um toasty.

As a Hider I have to breadcrumb my target in the thread. That means if my target is town, I risk the scum shooting my target and getting a two-for-one. Especially since if they know I'm a hider, they will COMB my posts looking for breadcrumbs.

As a claimed cop, I can do the same, but then when the flip comes, people know I wasn't the night kill (since hiders can't be NKed) and then the target dies. Or I draw the NK and the target is town, and I doctored myself. Ideal, I draw the NK, the target is scum, and I prevent a NK and find scum. Why the hell would I claim hider over cop, except to get Vi lynched here? What's the pro-town reason for claiming it honestly day 1? I'd never honestly claim Hider except if I thought the scum knew that I'd never honestly claim hider and shoot me thinking I'm a cop. Which wouldn't happen here.

@Rhinox: Knock yourself out. I'm town.

[GreyICE]

PM is a pretty picture, some flavor (guess its under the picture), my role, and a line with "bounty power" that I really didn't read. Role has what I thought was my power in it. In brackets.

[GreyICE]

GreyICE: one more question maybe we're not on the same page...

From the start of the game, did you understand the bounty mechanic? I.E. lynch the bounty, get the bounty reward? And you thought you had an ability and no bounty reward until last night?

I understood the mechanic, I thought I had a power and no reward. Plenty of mechanics I don't get in on, and I don't really give a hoot to most night actions that are NOT vigilante.

PEDIT Jahudo: Fortune my ass, NICE HAMMER

PEDIT2: LLD! YES! THANK YOU

[GreyICE]

Hiders are like this:

At night I hide behind someone. I can't be NKed. But if they die, I die.
If they're scum, they kill me.

So it's a cop ability, EXCEPT...

[GreyICE]

UncertainKitten has been killed. She was Jet Black,

Ex-Lover

Bodyguard [Protector]

[GreyICE]

Uh okay rhino. Go for it.

[GreyICE]

I understood the mechanic, I thought I had a power and no reward.

ok. I mean, this is pretty much all I needed to hear. I'm failrly certain you're lying scum and UK's role information is unreliable. I'll confirm how I know in a big reveal later. Unless there is a certain assumption I've got wrong, but we can confirm that after my big reveal fairly easily.

In the mean time, tell me a little more about this claimed hider reward - it specifically says if you hide behind scum, you die?

It's a hider mechanic.

If I hide behind Red Dragon clan, they kill me.

Do I have to get a wiki out for you?

[GreyICE]

So, you're saying you could theoretically hide behind a second scum group or sk and not die anyone ever hear of a faction-specific hider before, or would that then prove the existence of only 1 scum faction? Eh, ignore this for now the stuff below is much more important because this claimed ability does not exist anyways.

Everyone do me a favor and go take a look at the PM you received from Fate on March 7th at 8:27 PM (EST). It was the message where fate announced that all role PM's were sent out and we were supposed to confirm to him via PM by giving him a piece of information. That piece of information being

Role Name and [Bounty Reward]

.

So I have already had greyICE confirm that he has understood the bounty mechanic all along and that he claims that until last night, he did not believe he had a bounty reward but an already active from the start ability.

The PM sent by fate says the game would not start until all players confirmed, and since the game started then it logically follows that greyICE did indeed confirm.

Therefore, there is no way that greyICE would think he did not have a bounty reward, because it would have been information he would have to confirm before the game were allowed to start.

QED?

(initially, I thought the confirmation instructions were in the separate role PM's and if greyICE was given different confirmation instructions than someone I know to be town (me), then he must be scum. Now, it changes somewhat in that since we all received the same instructions, the fact that greyICE is claiming to not know he had a bounty reward is a blatant, obvious, confirmable lie and I would think scum would be more careful than that. But then again, I seem to be the only one that remembers the confirmation instructions, so maybe not.)

Anyways, there it is. greyICE, now that we all know you're lying and why, go ahead and try to explain.

Sorry, no catch. I PMed Fate "Confirm - one shot hider" before I even opened the other mail. That's what my role said.

I automatically PM all mods my role and confirmation pretty much exactly that way.

Except when I make up silly stuff if I'm a VT. Like "Confirm - Superman. Can Post AND vote!"

[GreyICE]

Just did a quick ISO of Vi.
I don't like her defense of me throughout the game, then sudden switch onto me after GreyICE lynch began to rot.
No reason for such a miller claim that early in the game.

If, however, she IS Julia, then we can assume that Vi is a Miller, leaving Jahudo in the open

Vote: VI

I am in favor of learning who GreyICE hid behind. It will clear someone as town, so we should use the move to our advantage, ESPECIALLLY if he hid behind someone we have been suspecting.

Well I was going to hide behind you.

But then Fate told me it was a bounty power.

Actually he was a bit more sardonic than that, but I suppose I deserved it.

[GreyICE]

Sorry, no catch. I PMed Fate "Confirm - one shot hider" before I even opened the other mail. That's what my role said.

I automatically PM all mods my role and confirmation pretty much exactly that way.

Except when I make up silly stuff if I'm a VT. Like "Confirm - Superman. Can Post AND vote!"

How did you know you were supposed to send a confirmation PM at all then?

When you read the second PM with the confirmation instructions, wouldn't you have thought maybe you should resend a confirmation PM something like "oh sry I meant /confirm here's my role name and I have no bounty reward" in order to do it right?

So does your role PM say what your non-bounty reward role is then without the bounty ability?

1) 'cause I've played mafia before.
2) No, 'cause I'd confirmed and deleted it.
3) No, I have no role outside of my bounty power apparently. Would have been a bit clearer if I had (or it was formatted "Vanilla Town [One-shot Hider]")

[GreyICE]

Well just post it in the thread then, and I'll post mine and we can compare!

Mine is what it is.

[GreyICE]

Cool. I don't. I have flavor name, [bounty reward]

[GreyICE]

Well you're an idiot, so that's pretty much to be expected.

[GreyICE]

Thank you LLD :p

As for me lacking a role name, I assume it's because without a bounty, I have no role. I can post and vote.

This power fishing is going on long enough though. Massclaim proposal or stop it.

I could have easily claimed roleblocked today if I were scum. It wouldn't even be a controversial statement. They roleblocked a cop, well gee. Imagine that.

I counterclaimed because first, I fucked up my gambit because I fucked up on the bounty powers, and second, I wanted Vi lynched yesterday for claiming my power, and I WILL see Vi lynched today. Or Jahudo for that AMAZING hammer on EXACTLY WHAT I TOLD HIM.

Bah, Jahudo is just Vicious fakeclaiming his role. Vicious miller, that makes more sense, but hey Seraphim claimed vengeful.

[GreyICE]

Jahudo's ISO is a disaster. His 'miller' counterclaim is meh. Hammering scum-Vi doesn't buy him many town points since Vi's been dead man walking since day 1. And waiting until night 2 to kill Nacho when he shortcircuited day 2 means that he's pretty high on the list.

Toasty is still a mess. Total complete mess.

Untrod Lurkpod is getting highly annoying. I still think he's town, but I hate him with the passion of a thousand fiery suns.

CES can die in a fire. I actually may think he's town, Vi was playing like he feared a booby trap from a good player. I think he's just most likely a booby. Remember on day 1 when I said I'd endorse a dayvig of him? YEAH THAT STILL APPLIES. THE FACT UT HAS CONTRIBUTED MORE TO THE THREAD THAN YOU SHOULD MAKE YOU CRY.

Vi (6): GreyICE, LLD, Toasty, AntiTown, Kdub, Jahudo
Rhinox (0):
Jahudo (2): Vi,

CES

Vote: Jahudo

[GreyICE]

Oh and Rhinox - Your contributions to the thread have been totally worthless. We have too many idiots in this village for players who SHOULD be playing better than this.

[GreyICE]

Go find me scum.

[GreyICE]

Why are you so sure I'm town?

I'm distinctly not. Pretty fucking sure I implied that at least one of the players who is acting dumb is

acting.

You sitting there waffling about role PMs yesterday while we lynched scum makes me highly unhappy. But I had somewhat of a town read on you day 1. So I'll give you a chance.

[GreyICE]

Vote: Untrod Tripod

Is UT getting replaced / prodded?

-----

Your theory is interesting Grey, but you are only saying that I would have acted that way as Vi's buddy. Why wouldn't I have acted that way as an actual miller? How is it more likely that the steps I took (voting Vi before the claim, reacting to Seraphim's claim, arguing over the flavor validity, etc.) had a scum perspective rather than a town one?

1) You claimed miller

after I claimed an investigate.

With Nacho having a case on you (or so he said) and me having an investigate and being CONVINCED Toasty and Vi were scum (oh hai Vi, Vicious of the Red Dragon Clan) that would actually leave any scumteam containing you and Vi in a bad way. And you counterclaiming Vi's miller counterclaim ensured that ONE of the two of you would live as 'town uninvestigatable' by being counterclaimed as scum.

2) Seraphim hammer - me and Nacho in particular were kicking the Seraphim wagon trying to make it fall apart. That was totally unacceptable for the scumteam, since the obvious lynch after Seraphim was... one of either you or Vi. Day 1 scum lynches are nasty. What's the odds you'll live with 10 town left? Especially with Seraphim confirmed (and I assume leaving the thread - that part from him felt like a load of bollocks) if Vi died?

3) You were counterclaimed by Vi. YOU WERE COUNTERCLAIMED BY SCUM. I know when I'm counterclaimed, what I do is glue my vote to the scumbag so hard that Gorilla glue calls me asking for the recipe.

I've been debating on whether it is okay for two identical power roles to have a different amount of useful information. Your role explicitly says Red Dragon is mafia, whereas for mine to be about the red dragons I'd have to assume ... that Gren was being accused of being a spy for the red dragons during the titan war even though Vicious was the one who testified against him so who is associating Gren and Vicious for that, and why do they think Gren is working for the red dragons in the first place? Should i just assume all that then? If all you knew about the character was "framed by Vicious" is that a strong enough piece of role information to know that Vicious is mafia, and therefore the mafia is Red Dragon? I just don't know.

I've also been wondering about how many mini's have used multiple millers. I can't think of any, and it would make Grey's role even more useless if my role did show up as red dragon. I could also see Fate wanting to nerf a cop though.

4) Nacho died. Not the night he said "lynch Jahudo after you lynch me." The night after.

Well WIFOM and all, but Nacho was a weird ass shot from where I'm sitting if you're town.

5) Look at you and Vi's reaction to the miller claim:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p2891172

Vi votes Seraphim, you vote Seraphim. Y'know, despite both of you theoretically having confirmed scum due to counterclaim.

Jahudo hammer reasoning:

unvote;
Vote: Seraphim

[GreyICE]

Oh fuck me.

@Kdub: You're good. I wanted to check something, and you're fine.

UNVOTE:

@Jahudo: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU Why are you so terribad? HONESTLY? Like... gah! I have other ideas for who Vi's scum buddies are besides you... and you come in and ruin that with your posting. >.>

Scum List currently:

Toasty/Rhinox/Jahudo/CES

Rhinox doesn't get lynched today. He's 4th on the list really.

Jahudo and CES are high, but I'm wavering a bit.

VOTE: Toasty

Oooh Toasty wagon is smexy, I admit. I could use a lot less Toast in this thread. But Jahudo needs to die so badly.

Rhinox is town incompetent. After me and Vi fighting in the thread for most of day 1, then UK confirming me, then me getting scum lynched day 2 (and not moving my vote, as soon as Vi counterclaimed my hider ability -

GORILLA GLUE

).

[GreyICE]

Bleh submitted.

Meant to say scum would go after a mislynch. It's only dumbtown who get this deep in a tunnel that they can't see daylight.

[GreyICE]

Bah I was chewing Vi's ass. And I'm no good at third parties, I never find the scumtracks around them so always assume they're town. Seraphim's explanation made 100% sense except for the vig kill (oh look, it was bounty power) and the staying in the thread nonsense (he departed I'm sure, so he was always going to cost us 0.5 lynches). Bad claiming, should have just come clean and we'd have lynched Vi. Would have been HYSTERICAL.

So Toasty and Jahudo... hmm... as long as I know you and kdub ain't gonna let this one slide if I keel over dead, I'll go toasty. But no derping onto CES before Jahudo is flipped town miller, 'kay?

[GreyICE]

I'm surprised I'm not dead yet.

And if not me, then you.

Why weren't either of us killed last night? Why NACHO?

This feels like a Mina kill, don't you think Grey?

No.

It's the fucking PERFECT time for Jahudo scum to off Nacho. Think about it. He just hammered scum. As far as he knows, there's one person in the thread with a solid case on him. He hammered day 1 cutting off the case. He hammered day 2 cutting off day 2 really early. Nacho is dead.

It could be a frame job, except that it's framing a CLAIMED FUCKING MILLER whose SCUMMY AS SHIT. Making the case to mislynch him is easy as hell, you leave the guy who suspects him alive and start shooting your nigh-confirmed town.

[GreyICE]

^^ SCUMCLAIM

[GreyICE]

Well the other thing is Jahudo is either flying solo, or flying with Toasty. Look at the player list.

I think Toasty would have huge reason to shoot me. Huge, enormous reasons. I'm confirmed town, I've had two correct scumreads (if toasty is scum) on day 1 and at least one correct one confirmed in thread. I told Vi I'd be gunning for him like a bat out of hell AND I WAS - the thing with toasty at the end of day 1 was mostly so that if my Hider flip happened people would know exactly who I hid behind - mostly worthless, as it turned out (also me flipping hider would have killed Vi anyway, so that would have been a toofer).

I think Jahudo scum has huge enormous reasons to shoot Nacho and cross his fingers. What we're witnessing here is a scumteam literally falling apart on itself. That says Jahudo sitting in the QT just QQing and praying, and that says to me Vi dead, himself making a horrible hammer, his partner flaking, and that "Ok" was just "well, you got me."

Could be Toasty and Jahudo sitting there and arguing about whose more boned, with Toasty saying "well, might as well shoot Nacho and I'll just go down, lets try and get one mislynch in first before you have to bus me" but I think we need to relook at the UT bit.

[GreyICE]

HOW AM I IN THE MIDDLE?

Are you saying my interactions with Vi were MUTUAL SCUMBUSSING? Or is it the bit where UK stated that she had role information on me being town, then flipped EX-LOVER BODYGUARD? Or is it the bit where I claimed to be the bounty on day 2 and NO ONE COUNTERCLAIMED ME?

I AM CONFIRMED FUCKING TOWN HERE

[GreyICE]

What's his roleclaim?



Post Restriction: If someone is at L-1 must hammer in the scummiest manner possible. May not ever explain hammers or actions in the thread. Must claim utter nonsense and herp about if accused.

[GreyICE]

So it's a role that bodyguards non-RDC scum?

Imma gonna beat you...

[GreyICE]

Vi had Julia as a fake claim.

I don't think we can assume anything at all. It's very possible that Fate is using the fakeclaims for bounties, in fact it's almost certain (otherwise the game would be breakable - every bounty would confirm town). I'm confirmed WELL outside of bounty mechanics, before Rhinox screams again.

I suggest that if Toasty was scum he'd be sheeping our Jahudo read unless Jahudo was scumbuddy. I'd also like to see what other people have to say, so I'm going to kick back and watch everything EXCEPT this flavor discussion progress, because this seriously feels like a 5 player game atm.

PEDIT: /Agree

[GreyICE]

You know what?

I actually kinda like the Toasty/Vi/Jahudo team.

It works!

I'll do in either of them. I had lots of copy pasta herp derp from Vi here, but long story short:

Vi lists Jahudo as town after the only mentions of him being suspicions, and 4 of the people in the lower half of Vi's scum reads being confirmed non-RDC (meaning Vi liked to put town as scummy).

Vi lists 3 town reads. Jahudo/Rhinox/LLD. Vi's a smooth operator, but can't help but think one is someone Vi wanted alive. Jahudo? Or Rhinox? Vi's the one who deflected my initial vote on Rhinox, after all, but Jahudo is just more of a mess. LLD he couldn't call scummy without calling down the wrath of me, Nacho, and UK in full fucking force at that point.

Jahudo's actions in the thread are terrible. His waffling is terrible. It really feels like he didn't want to lynch Vi day 2 and his expressed logic today is bad. He claimed miller after I claimed investigate. His short circuiting discussion on day 2 was bad. His hammer day 1 was bad.

All in all, I don't like Jahudo one bit.

Toasty actually fares a bit better, though still an easy #2. UT is still town despite being replaced, LLD is town, Anti is town.

Jahudo is the worse of the two. But toasty is a fine lynch.

P.S. Vi had to shoot through UK, Nacho, and LLD at a minimum, with the possibility of at least one person being confirmed by town power roles. Yet despite expressing suspicion of Jahudo early on, and Nacho's vote, he got bumped to town when there looked like little resistance to that opinion from non-Nacho quarters.

[GreyICE]

AND THERE WAS MUCH FUCKING REJOICING!

TOWNREAD ON TRIPOD SLOT NOW V USEFUL!

[GreyICE]

Vote: Jahudo

RECK

READ CONTAMINATION: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD A DAYVIG

[GreyICE]

I need to see 7 clones of you all play a game.

Vote: CES4

Unvote Vote: CES 7

Unvote Vote CES 7

Unvote Vote CES 3

Unvote Vote CES 7

Unvote Vote CES 5


Just page after page after page

[GreyICE]

More on Jahudo-scum.

1) Miller claim!

I claim Gren. I am a miller with a bounty reward of not being a miller.
No mention of Red Dragons, but there is a mention of Vicious from the flavor talking about the Titan War.

This is a fairly odd role for Fate to hand out. A 'reward' of being a vanilla townie doesn't seem all that good. Fate might have been strapped for powers or something, if he had to give them to 9 town and 3 scum, but "VT" is an awfully sad power nevertheless.

The reasoning for the timing though? That's just bad.

My reward was to not be a miller, so I hoped to get it honestly. And it doesn't matter when you claim miller, whether your first post of day one or anytime after that: people still see that as the most obv thing scum could claim. That's why town gets that role I guess. But two townies? I'd like to see that balance out with a 1-shot cop.

So he was hoping to get his bounty reward and it doesn't matter when on day 1 he claimed it.

So he was... hoping not to have to claim it because he might not be a miller sometime after day 1, but it was fine if he claimed it anytime day 1.

The protown part I see is:

If Seraphim gets back to L-1, I'll hammer him or Vi can if she wants to. That way the lyncher is no longer a distraction and we flip a claimed miller as early as possible.

unvote;
Vote: Seraphim

That does look like an honest attempt to sacrifice himself to solve the miller issue for once and for all. Seraphim claimed Vengeful, and threatened to use it on the last person on the wagon. I don't see scum throwing themselves into that thresher all that willingly.

So... for now,

Unvote

I'll just sit here and wait for opinions. I think Jahudo honestly tried to die end of day 1, and was surprised not to. The recent post was scum as shit, but I can't just help wondering if his play is honestly abysmal.

So, you know what? Confirmed town is sitting this one out for the moment! Have fun and play in the sandbox boys and girls, I'm color commentary.

Oh. And do play.

[GreyICE]

I'd explain it.

But to date my experience with it was to balls it up beyond all reasoning.

Uh basically you lynch some number of the right people and you get superpowers. We feel fairly certain that Fate is using the fakeclaims, as the first time he throws up "Vicious, Red Dragon Clan" then we're gonna be like "hmm, didn't he just confirm a whole mass of townies?"

And once you lynch special name guy, you learn to fly and shit.

ATM there's a LOT to be learned from day 1. Day 2 can be called simply: "Vi was double counterclaimed and under lots of suspicion from day 1 outside of that, died a dishonerable death."

[GreyICE]

My god. You are such a bloody frat boy.

(:D)

(OH COME ON ITS A FATE GAME YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW MECHANICS. TRUST ME, I HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT EM)

(And technically we've bagged two non-town, though Seraphim was basically town Beautiful Princess)

[GreyICE]

DRAM WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU POSTING IN A GAME YOU'RE NOT PLAYING IN?
SERIOUSLY NOT COOL

Anyway, who is the bounty on? I say we lynch them.

Bah general bad idea, as the scum bounty power was 1-shot assassin. That would have... sucked. A lot.

We most likely have a 3 man scumteam so the only day I'd straight up lynching the bounty for powers is if we get a straight up scum flip for tomorrow.

And as I am nearly certainly the NK, I veto the idea of just lynching the bounty. Too lazy, not enough stands.

[GreyICE]

Hmm. Now that's a good argument. Whichever dies, one lives as 'town miller.' And aborts the Vi lynch. Jahudo probably saw himself as much less of a heavy hitter on the scum team, despite exactly how strong of a scum read Vi was giving off (and he can't have anticipated what a counterclaim of Vi's power would do anyway, hmm... and I was planning to 'test' him, he had to wonder whether I was a cop or something else at that point).

Well, we need Rhinox the lovable rhinoceros to give us some read besides "my role PM yadda yadda Fate puts work into his fakeclaim PMs" and Antihero the lovable flaker (PROD ANTI PROD PROD) to give us something too.

But you're town.

As much as I hate that.

PEDIT:
1) UK - Had a role that bodyguarded her ex-lover. Confirmed in thread, confirmed by flip
2) Role exists - confirmed by bounty day 2.

So we could assume that I'm scum with a fake claim that was the day 2 bounty, and that UK had a role that bodyguarded my fakeclaim, and had absolutely no information that would let her determine my alignment in her PM because Fate wouldn't bastard lie about someone's alignment. And that she erroneously concluded that her ex-lover, the person she could bodyguard, was confirmed town with no information in her PM that said so.

But yeah, I'm just confirmed town right now.

Huh an idea. I get a hider as my power...

[GreyICE]

Hahaha. Oh wow. Vi's claim of not getting the power on the first bounty was an obvious lie from the updated rules. Just didn't want to claim the assassin power as a 1-shot vig.

My god was Vi going down. And we lost 2 non-town and one town with no powers...

Okay, we're going to mass claim role names and bounty powers. NOT MAIN POWERS. Bounty powers seem reasonably weak, and since we all get them, we have the best idea of what the town is capable of if we lynch bounty. Lets see where this ends up.

Role name: Alisa
Bounty Power: One-shot hider

Jahudo
Role Name: Gren
Bounty Power: Not a miller (aka godfather)

[GreyICE]

Eh, I don't see it giving away much. Do the bounty powers relate to real roles all that well?

[GreyICE]

Given that Spike was third party, and Jet had an ability that was kinda a downgrade on Mason (as I couldn't reverse confirm) I'm not sure that names are going to single out power roles.

[GreyICE]

Hmm...

Toasty's power would be very odd on scum. If it could be given to scum, it effectively eliminates a townie. While that's not unreasonable, together with Vi, they essentially bump off two townies, letting town lose from 6:2 (lynch town, NK town, Assassin town, give Vi+1 votes, no lynch, win).

That's a hell of a lot of power in a scumteam, and while Vi nosed at the bounty issue, it wasn't hard enough given what THAT would mean for the town. And it's a weird fake claim.

So I'm going to suggest that this makes him more town.

Hmm, I'm derping on something here.

PEDIT: ITT Reck discovers the obvious

[GreyICE]

Though I admit, he started off RVS with a random meaningless vote for someone who randomly flipped scum.

Seen that one way too often for some reason...

[GreyICE]

I'm still not sure why I'm so scummy looking day 1.

I didn't like Seraphim, but then realized that there were none of the connections to him that I wanted to see in a scum candidate. So he was scummy, but he wasn't scum (look, he flipped scum-like... but not scum). I pushed Vi pretty hard in the early game. Scum. We still haven't seen toasty flip.

Even if I fucked up with Toasty, I ain't gonna put this down as one of my bad games.

[GreyICE]

My problem is the v. interesting timing for all the millers to start spilling out of the woodwork.

Namely, right after I claimed cop. Claiming miller when you're under some level of suspicion is somewhat scummy, and having a SECOND person do it doesn't really make either of them less scummy.

Assume a Toasty, Vi, Jahudo scumteam for a second. Jahudo counterclaims Vi weakly, they put off the issue until day 2, one of the two gets lynched, the other lives as confirmed miller. It damn well beats the bit where between me, Nacho, and LLD we finger the entire scumteam on day 1. And they definitely could be playing the 'setup speculation see how many days we can put this off then one of us is confirmed town' crap. For someone who voted seraphim to get vigged to settle the 'two miller' business, he wasn't in love with lynching Vi on day 2.

Nacho shot makes NO BLEEDING SENSE with anything other than Jahudo scum. Unless it's Antihero who wanted to push the 'both are scum and it's a plan' theory.

Though now that I'm reading that, this assumes Toasty scum and/or that Antihero even found the fucking QT last night, which given his general activity level might be a bit much.

Fate: Prod Antihero and Katsuki. Preferably with something sharp and painful. And if it hasn't been long enough since day start do it anyway.

@Rhinox: I have most of my games on my Wiki.

[GreyICE]

Well was it sharp enough and painful enough?

[GreyICE]

When did I ever call for a Jahudo lynch day 2? Pretty sure my goal was to ride Vi to the noose.

[GreyICE]

Jahudo :p

[GreyICE]

You said I was prob scum regardless of Vi's alignment. But let's look past you for a moment. How many people were suspicious of Vi or myself before either of us claimed? Do you think all it took was for you to claim a 1 shot investigate and all the dominos fall from there?

I've seen weirder.

And I've got some very solid town reads right now. Which means this game is close to the breaking point.

[GreyICE]

Vi lynch was inevitable. Scum had nothing to gain by staying off the wagon. It wasn't a deadline wagon or something where there were 'some good arguments' Vi was double counterclaimed. One on, one off is nonsense.

[GreyICE]

Also if we're going one on, one off, the lessee. CES:

Bandwagons me
Bandwagons Jahudo

Avoids voting Vi like black plague.

Day 2 bandwagoners on me early:
Toasty
Rhinox
CES

People who are 90% town in that list:
Rhinox

People who are not:
The rest

[GreyICE]

Because UT just flaked. You can't vote for someone when you're not in the game.

CES actively avoided the wagon by hopping on both other possible wagons.

If you are going to say one scum is off the wagon, UT is not a pick.

[GreyICE]

UT was town. His replacement is too.

[GreyICE]

FYI, as confirmed town, I have decided to choose transportation suitable to my stature.



We require more posting from LadyLambdaDelta

We require more from kdub. Our holy selves have declared Rhinox to be town, only slightly beneath us in stature, for reasons we may or may not deign to explain to the uninitiated. kdub must provide us better human sacrifices for our Inquisition.

xRECKONERx is now deemed Captain Obvious for his dissertion on why Toasty is scummy. Nevertheless, our holy selves deign this a good line of inquiry and would see it proceed with a pace somewhat less than 'lackadaisically bored.'

Our holy selves deem CES quite unreadable, and that means he's most likely a golem. Golems are not witches, but they are often witch familiars, and thus should one of the great unwashed develop a case of the vig, they should end this problem immediately.

[GreyICE]

I'm just confused, because you just got done telling me my one on one off theory was crap because vi-lynch was inevitable and scum would bus the hell out of him. Then you tell me CES is scummy because he didn't vote vi.
Further, if scum really were likely to all bus vi, then UT is still a scum candidate specifically because he wasn't around to hop on vi's wagon.
So which is it? You're the confirmed town guy who wants to tell everyone how it is. Well then, make up your mind and tell me how it is.

That is not the correct approach, my son. It defeats the point of non-interference at this juncture if we choose to exercise our authority and interfere heavily. We have not received divine inspiration on the subject, and are therefore observing temporal matters and providing our guidance to the great unwashed.

Our first holy writ that the one-on, one-off you expect to see doesn't necessarily happen when a known scumbuddy is going down.
The second is that flakers have to be noted in VCA, and if you, my son, are looking for someone who actively avoided the wagon, CES did so. UT passively avoided it by flaking out of this game.

These are not mutually exclusive messages for you. We do these for the same reason we have chosen to move KDub to more productive targets. Challenging xRECKONERx on why his predecessor didn't vote or post or show up on day 2 is highly unproductive. Since you, my son, are the person our personage has deemed most likely to be town, outside of ourselves, we prefer to see enlightening avenues of inquiry from you.

[GreyICE]

Very good! Claimed millers shall be lynched the day before LyLo. Although in this case we may sanction an earlier lynch if our town flock hits scum before then.

Our limited access to omniscience reveals to us that Antihero has been on a 1 week V/LA that was poorly announced site-wide. Which has enlightened us to a number of mysteries in our ongoing games. While our holy personage has a town read, it is mild and quiet. We feel enlightenment may come from pitching bricks that way.

LLD is exactly cheeky enough to mock our personage with her cheeky mention of the night kill being similar to a kill she submitted while on a scumteam with ourselves in a previous game. Yet her tunneling of Seraphim day one was decidedly town, as she ignored completely an L-1 wagon on herself to tunnel someone she, as scum, would have thought to be town. This does not seem like a solid survival instinct.

We shall agree that kdub is townish, for now, although we note that his interactions on day 1 with Vi were a game of softball, and if Jahudo is scum and toasty is town, he looks worse. Nevertheless, this is divining information from knowledge that is hidden from us by dark powers, and only with time and the whim of destiny can we learn it.

We have decided that the town may be in a 'holding pattern' until Antihero and LLD decide to grace us, and xRECKONERx decides to contribute.

We endorse mockery of CES for his avatar and poor personal hygiene during this period.

[GreyICE]

We many confirm the Rhinox read is for reasons unrelated to his gameplay, which has been somewaht terrible. However we have moderate role related reasons to believe him town, which his gameplay today has strongly reinforced.

We suggest that the fish is most aesthetically displeasing to our trained eye.

[GreyICE]

We wish to wait for AntiTown, so we will make our opinions known on Monday, at the latest.

We are strongly unimpressed with today. The purpose of recusing ourselves from the discussion was to let people discuss things and give strong reads without the buddying/sheeping that both town and scum can do with confirmed town. We also did not have a strong opinion about certain things, and wished to see the town's take.

We expected that scum would attempt to stay low, while town would do their best to push suspicions with a scum flip and a not-scum flip.

We were very unimpressed with the response overall.

[GreyICE]

Two people actually, if we are counting Vi.

And the use of the word "correctly" may be somewhat suspect

(if it helps, you are not in our top three)

[GreyICE]

Seriously, CES is probably town, because he just doesn't have the cast iron testicles and rocks-for-brains needed to blatantly spend the entire game sheeping his scumbuddy, especially as they go down in enormous, mile high flames on day two. It'd be stupid, you would almost guarantee yourself the target of some night action or another - were our esteemed selves to receive our hider ability, CES would be a most excellent one to hide behind for, if nothing else, the fact that he is most unlikely to receive the night kill.

[GreyICE]

Alright, at L-1 we would like to note a few things about today.

First, Toasty is the definition of an easy target, while Jahudo is the definition of a hard one. Jahudo, it is easy to say, is near-confirmed town in theory. In practice, I put exactly nothing past Vi and Jahudo's play and timing have been highly suspicious, to say the least. However, Jahudo's play late day 1 and day 2 were so incredibly bad that I think it's safe to say that he managed to put himself in the easy target category.

Today will serve as a very interesting memoir if and when we learn Jahudo and Toasty's alignment. Now, lemme go down the player list, and make my notes.

Cogito Ergo Sum:

Should probably die at some point or another, but I've made my feelings on that front very well known. Day 2 in particular was an abomination.

Rhinox:

Probably Town. Now we will reveal the role information that lets me know this:

...

It's a secret!

NYAH
If I die tonight, he can figure it out on his own, or he'll deserve his own lynch. I'll see if the little hamster wheel can stay on track.
That being said, it's hardly a 100% thing.

Jahudo:

I think my feelings here are well known.

Lady Lambdadelta;

T to the motherfucking OWN

ToastyToast:

Reck's vote is terribad, but hey, guess what Toasty? You're still scummy.

Antitown

Is probably anti-town. Certainly hasn't mastered the entire 'voting' deal.

We will give him is 'time.' We will see if he bringeth down the hammer, a right we wish to reserve for ourselves.

We will enjoy this.

Kdub:

He is very quiet for someone we have a town read on. We do not know if this is a good thing. We suspect not. We note Glork's rule - we always read one scum as pro-town day 1.

Reckoner:

Friggin terrible. Fortunately, easy as sin to read. Unfortuantely, reads as scum. Fortunately, UT read as town. Give him one more day, then throw him into the woodchipper.