1119: The Might of Mordor: Game Over

[Sevei]

/confirm

[Sevei]

Sorry about late entry to the dialogue; we had an unexpected family thing happen and I've just gotten caught up now and will post later.

[Sevei]

Yeah, so this is sort of like jumping on a moving train. (Sorry for the wall but I am behind.)

I agree that it’s highly unlikely Plum would have forgotten who Edge/Fate is as he’s not the type of player easily forgotten. It

could

happen, but it’s unlikely.

That being said, there has been some questioning of Edge’s case on Plum (i.e., why would Scum-Plum lie about forgetting who Edge was?) Go back and look at those original posts (basically 19-20, 38, 41, and 65) that triggered this entire discussion.

Summary and Commentary

1. Edge did nothing townie or scummy in confirmation stage;

2. He immediately called Plum out on her comment and blatant buddying;

3. Plum laughs off his question and says she didn’t remember him; later in that post she questions Mariyta’s vote on Edge:

Are you pretty damn sure that Edge is a good lynch today? If not, why are you voting to lynch him? ANSWER: Because there's no harm in early-game imbue votes. Hell, I'd forgotten who Edge was and he got some extra Townpoints in my book for having a Fate-like approach (more intuitive as Town and harder to pull off as scum) until I realized that, oh yeah, he is Fate (and RC).

Awkward. The question has nothing to do with imbuing; Mari’s vote on Edge had nothing to do with imbuing. The subsequent comments about forgetting who Edge was are gratuitous, and an unnecessary explanation like that reeks of nervous energy which makes me believe she is scum trying to cover a slip.

4. The root issue is Plum’s comment about how uber-town Edge is when he wasn’t doing ANYTHING townie (or scummy, for that matter), which triggered Edge’s scumdar and made him question her, which prompted the explanation that she had temporary amnesia;THAT is Scum-Plum’s motivation for lying.

5. If Plum were town, she would have been able to brush off Edge's question about her buddying and she would never have invented the story that she forgot who Fate was. Instead she addresses her memory lapse not once but twice in #65, once in a comment addressed to Edge and once in a comment addressed to Mariyta, thus drawing undue attention to it.

6. At THAT point, Plum

had

to respond by referencing the other game, and from that point on in THIS game, the question became about if she truly forgot who Edge was…evidenced in post 80, Quadz says

Plum not remembering that Edge = Fate is odd, but not really relevant or scummy.

In #98, Esurio says

On a side note, as someone with a horrible memory myself, I am skeptical that anyone could seriously consider forgetting who the heads of a hydra are a scumtell.

The argument continues to disintegrate from that point on (thanks in part to the ALL CAPS and expletive barrage) and becomes about the lie itself, not about the reason for the lie…which has been there all along. (By the way, Edge addresses most of this in 71.)

Is it possible Plum really forgot who Edge really is? Sure—but WHY would that EVER have needed to be mentioned? SHE brought it up—not him. He questioned her on page

two

; her response was a self-protecting overreaction to his question. Her knowledge of his identity did not have any bearing on the question of whether she was buddying him or not.

VOTE: PLUM

L-1

I have some other things to say but it's almost 5:30 a.m. and I'm in need of sleep. I will be back later today for more.

[Sevei]

Actually,

UNVOTE

for the moment; an ill-timed hammer could cut off discussion too soon, and we still haven't decided who to imbue with the ring. But my vote IS on Plum.

[Sevei]

1. I would prefer not to have the ring one N1; I'm not quite sure how I would use my ability just yet. I also haven't decided who I would prefer to Imbue; I'm debating between Katy and Quadz atm.

2. VV: More like the game was already underway when I dove in, and I got to see the events of the game all at once rather than watching them unfold. This gave me a slightly objective perspective; I wasn't involved in any of the discussion, so it was easier for me to pick it apart and see the roots of it all at once. Basically, I just never got the reasoning behind saying she forgot who Edge was, from a town or scum perspective, and it makes more sense that scum-Plum would say that because she was scrambling to cover her buddying up to Edge. Right now I still think she's pretty scummy and at the moment my vote would still be on her.

***

I started this post this afternoon and had to step away from it, and a whole lot has happened since then, soooo I'm catching up...more soon; just want to finish reading the parts of the thread between where I left off earlier and the last page, which is fun times.

Prev. Edit:

Preview Edit:
fuck
Fuck
FUCK
STOP POSTING

[Sevei]

Weather issues here, too. Expecting more ice and stuff tonight, but hopefully won't lose power this time around. Working on getting something posted before storm hits; the storm's ETA is about two to three hours.

[Sevei]

Hi...as predicted, we lost power for a couple of days and got it back last night; today we had a Superbowl party, so it's been kind of hectic, but I should be able to be back in the game now.

Before I make my catch-up post, though, can someone tell me what a "teaparty" is in regards to the game? Thanks.

[Sevei]

First, I’m assuming that either no one knows what “teaparty” is, even though at least two of you who posted after I asked have USED the term in this game, or that you’re just not reading all the posts. I want to know what it means, so if you know, could you please tell me? Thanks.

Second, I didn’t have Internet or power for the better part of last week, and a lot has happened; I unfortunately also got off to a slow start before that, but, AGAIN, I should be able to contribute more regularly now, barring anymore interference from the weather. (I live in a rural area, in the South, where we are not always prepared to deal with things like snow and ice.)

Thoughts on the Game:

(given as succinctly as possible)

I still believe Plum is scum, for all the reasons that have been listed before.

The cases on Hohum are also compelling. I also don't like that Mari replaced out not only after being pressured, but after having serious and potentially damning questions put to her; Hohum's attitude to today also leaves much to be desired.

It is notable that when MasterSpy replaced in, Mina made a case on Singer (who MoI has mentioned briefly since then, but is not focusing on) and MoI made a case on Mari. Up until this point neither Singer nor Mari had been truly scrutinized (aside from Quadz’s case on Mari which was at a standstill), and now Mari/Hohum is a likely lynch candidate. Also, when MS entered the game and these cases were made, what happened? Attention was taken away from Plum, and she has since relaxed and no longer seems quite as driven by the nervous energy that informed her early play.

***

It’s a bit of a conundrum that MS is in fact a hydra; dealing with both heads (and one that apparently “waffles” a lot) allows for a certain amount of grace for inconsistency that isn’t afforded to the rest of us. MS scum could be getting away with target fishing and fence-sitting solely because of this, which I don’t like—especially since MoI has pointed out how often Mina is waffling in their QT. I often find drawing attention to something like that is a tell of sorts; it’s something he’s worried about, so he mentions it to sort of diffuse suspicions of it. Also of note: Mina’s first post was very sympathetic to Plum; MoI’s posts considerably less so.

He has said this:

Deadline is coming rather quickly – we need to get the Imbue hammered before HoHum or Plum takes the rope.

and this

Once we deal with Plum and HoHum you can rest assured I’ll be looking more seriously at you.

yet his entire “case” on Plum is this:

The case on Plum (calling Edge obv-Town early yet forgetting it actually included Fate) is so-so but Plum’s reaction isn’t what I would expect from Plum-Town. In [REDACTED] the mention by me that she wasn’t obv-Town (not scum mind you, just not obv-Town) was met with an immediate and emotional attack.

Her response to Edge here is much more along the line of ‘Ooops, tehehehe’.

Damning? No.

But inconsistent enough that I think it scummy.

And he doesn't even think it's damning, but he's got her in the top two of his reads, enough so that he mentions her twice in conjunction with lynching.


My top three scum reads are Plum, MS, and Hohum.

The problem with this is that I don’t see how Hohum and MS would work as partners, especially if we also have Plum-scum…why would MS come in and clear one buddy by attacking another (who wasn’t even really in danger at that time)?

MS and Plum make sense as partners to me; Plum’s relief at being removed from the spotlight is apparent. MS is keeping a safe distance from Plum, not totally clearing her but not focusing on her, either. I can also see the Hohum/Plum pairing, but Mari’s early interactions with Plum didn’t strike me that way; I need to do some more rereading for that.

Either way, I can only fit two of these three into a scum equation, and Plum fits in both pairings. I’ve got an “either/or” read on MS and Hohum; still trying to work it out.

Vote: Plum

L-2

Imbue: Quadz

Hammer

[Sevei]

My vote will be on Hohum after we've spent more time discussing things. I'm not ready to give MasterSpy a reprieve from the gallows even though SS is looking pretty scummy herself right now, and Singer makes more sense as a partner to Hohum than MS does.

It's 5:30 a.m. for me now and I am about to crash, so I will finish this later.

[Sevei]

After rereading a lot and mucking about with ISOs, I was getting ready to hammer the imbue on VV, but want to ask Edge (RC) why AGM? He confirms his own alignment to two people, but they aren't confirmed in return. VV gets to protect three people if he's imbued (which is pretty awesome). I'll wait for your answer, but I'm happy with imbuing VV.

[Sevei]

I spent most of yesterday trying to work things out but the day ended before I had a chance to discuss some of that; I'm not sorry Hohum is gone, but I would have liked more time in the day.

IM WILLING TO ENTERTAIN THAT VV IS TOWN

BUT IF HE IS

WHO BLOCKED THE KILL? WE ALREADY HAVE TWO PROTECTIVE ROLES CLAIMED, AND NOBODY BUT ME WAS SEEN TARGETING EDGE BY QUADZ, OR ELSE HE WOULD HAVE CLAIMED IT

SO WHERE IS THE SCUMKILL? THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION IS 1. A NINJA OR 2. A TOWN RB AND A SCUM RB ONE TO BLOCK VV AND ONE TO BLOCK SCUM OR 3. ANDY HAS THREE PROTECTIVE ROLES WTF?

BUT 2. IS PROBABLY NOT THE CASE, AS THEY TOO WOULD HAVE CLAIMED IT

1. Reasonably sure VV is very, very Town.
2. Scum could have actually targeted Katy, too.
3. Don't discount the idea of a town RB so quickly; however, I think that the most likely happening is that scum also targeted Katy; she was pretty obv-town and she was also a strong player in the first game, was she not?

As to whom VV targeted, the assigned targets were Fate, Gandalf, and AGM, NOT Quadz. Fate was accusing Quadz of being scum late in D2, remember?

Speaking of AGM...did you send a message last night?

Mina/MS: Why did you only consider me as a possible partner of SS and Plum until Quadz died?

[Sevei]

Gandalf: I went back and looked but can't find where that was addressed atm. I need to be 100% positive that this has been mod-confirmed before I can say more.

[Sevei]

Quadz never clarified how many people visited Edge on N1. In fact, he deliberately made a point of hiding the number of people when he claimed.

PART OF MY SUPERPOWER IS THAT I GET TO CHOOSE ONE PLAYER TO WATCH. I CHOSE EDGE. I SAW [REDACTED NUMBER] PLAYERS VISIT EDGE. 1 OF THEM WAS GANDALF. 0 OF THEM WAS VV.

Singer asked about it on D2; in fact she specifically said:

You're still alive now and clearly more than one person visited you last night, which leads me to believ that you were targetted by scum but it didn't go through. FOR THE LIFE OF ME I CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS PERSON ISN'T GETTING LYNCHED INSTEAD.

Is there any reason to believe that more than two people visited Edge that night?

[Sevei]

I just wanted to be

absolutely

certain about the answers to my questions.


*

In the midst of all the bickering and fingerpointing, there is a low hiss. You all look over and see a wispy fog surrounding the pedestal upon which the One Ring is resting, and a low voice fills your ears. After your initial shock upon learning the Ring is female, you hear...

On N1, Quadz used his power to watch Edge; this everyone knows. However, his secret superpower which he did NOT reveal in the thread was that of roleblocker. He was able to choose one player to watch AND block. He wasn't sure whether or not he wanted to block one of his scum-reads or to watch one of his town-reads, but in the end, he decided there would be more benefit in watching a town-read and seeing who visited that night.

So, on N1, Edge was watched AND roleblocked by Quadz, who was most definitely Town.

Therefore, either a) another town blocker stopped the kill; b) there was no kill; or c) Quadz blocked the kill.

The Precious has spoken.






*Flavor was not written by the mod!

[Sevei]

I didn't vote because I'm still trying to work out some of this mess for myself. Gandalf and Fate are being adamant that only two people visited Fate (I quoted Gandalf saying that); so...knowing what I know is confusing the issue for me. I brought it out in the open in order to open more avenues of discussion and to try to stop this train wreck barrage of crap going back and forth today.

Basically as to how I know this stuff, I'm the Precious, and I get to go home with you at night if you get imbued. We talk, drink cocoa, swap recipes, that sort of thing, and I complain about Gollum and his fish fetish. We also try to figure out which of you just wants to melt me down into molten lava because obviously I'm not too keen on that.

I'm going to try to walk through my logic here and point out where I'm having problems:

Basics:
When Quadz first made his claims, he never specified the number of players who targeted Edge. Then Singer asked why we weren't lynching the "other person" that he had seen visit Edge. Quadz's flip revealed he is a voyeur, which means he normally only sees actions, but he specifically said his superpower allowed him to watch a player which means he would have seen who actually did the targeting.

Questions:
IF Quadz had seen another person visit Edge, and it was established that VV was town-BG AND that Gandalf also successfully protected Edge, then Quadz would have answered Singer's question because that would have had to have meant that the other person tried to NK Edge. Gandalf addressed this question again today...why aren't we targeting whoever was roleblocked? (And unless there is another town RB, then the only one blocked by town on N1 was Edge.)

The thing is, I'm pretty sure if someone tried to kill Edge and Gandalf protected him, then Quadz would not have seen the unsuccessful kill, just as he didn't see VV's unsuccessful visit, which means that if anyone else successfully visited Edge that night, it wasn't to kill him. Therefore, if he really meant that he saw multiple visitors that night then he only saw town PRs, not scum. (I think Quadz chose not to claim the exact number he saw visit because he either knew someone else had visited and not harmed him OR that he hadn't worked everything out, either.) (And GEEEEZ Fate, what are you selling to get so much company at night?)

Here's the thing: right now there are two scenarios that could have happened, and one of them is that there was no NK because Quadz blocked it, and the other is that there was no NK because Gandalf protected the target; however, the consensus here in the thread SEEMS to indicate that only two people visited Edge, and it sure does seem that Gandalf is convinced that someone was roleblocked, NOT that he successfully protected anyone (Posts 914 and 927 support this.). This is why I was so clear about the questions I asked today.

I think this answers your questions, Singer. I think the point I'm getting to is that even if Quadz saw multiple persons visit Edge, he also roleblocked Edge, and with the lack of a N1 kill and the insistence that the killer must have been roleblocked and that only two people visited Edge, then that roleblock is something we need to examine more closely because what people are saying is not adding up.

[Sevei]

1. I have NO powers. None. Aside from being the ring, I am simply made a non-alignment confirmed neighbor at night. This is why I said a long time ago that I didn't want to be imbued "yet."

2. Neither VV nor Quadz knew who I was when we were talking unless they figured it out on their own. I signed into the QT as "The Precious." And I assume neither VV nor Quadz revealed the presence of the ring in the game because it's obviously a surprise mechanic.

3. I didn't TELL VV about Quadz's information during N2 because I wasn't completely sure of Quadz OR VV's alignment. Also, FATE, you gave out your magic list of you, Gandalf, and AGM, and then you started making a case on Quadz during Twilight. I had the thought you were trying to cover him with a modicum of protection as well, and you were thinking that if scum believed you found Quadz scummy enough, they would leave him alone.

My scum reads last night were SpyreX and MasterSpy, meaning from my viewpoint the only player left who hadn't been either protected or been labeled suspicious was...me. I didn't tell VV to protect me, I actually pretty much wrote exactly what is in this paragraph, only I said "SS and Sevei" were the only two left with no sort of covering if both the Spys were scum. I didn't know what he would choose to do, and until he revealed his list in the thread, I wasn't sure whom he would protect.

Neither did I tell Quadz what to do. He was debating using his ability to roleblock Hohum, who was his top scum read, or to watch Edge, who was his top town read, and in the end decided it was better to try to watch town with no claimed superpower in hopes that he would be able to narrow down scum suspects.

4. I'm not dancing around anything. I shared the information I have about the roleblock based on the fact that you were the only one I KNOW for a FACT was roleblocked on N1. I asked multiple times for clarification about N1 eventualities and basically the conversation was this:

3. Don't discount the idea of a town RB so quickly; however, I think that the most likely happening is that scum also targeted Katy;

@Sevei: No, scum could not have also targeted Katy. Did you read the mod's response to that?

Also, if there IS a town RB, he needs to claim, because he targeted scum N1.

Gandalf: I went back and looked but can't find where that was addressed atm. I need to be 100% positive that this has been mod-confirmed before I can say more.

Check the votecouunt FOO. DOUBLE KILL EQUAL DOUBLE THE FLAVOR

Is there any reason to believe that more than two people visited Edge that night?

OH HAI SWEVEEUVEUAU

ITS BEEN 100% CLARIFIED. NOW SAY MORE OR YOU GET YOUR NAME ON THE DEATHLIST.

On D2 there was more discussion like this, but I explained in my last post my reasoning on that.

5. I didn't vote Fate because there is still the possibility that he was the target of the kill himself, even with yesterday's insistence that there were only two people who could have visited him, and I want to discuss that possibility. I also felt like it was time to share all of this information because the posting so far on D3 has left a lot to be desired in the way of actually getting anything done. D2 ended long before it could have, and today has been a train wreck, so yeah, it's time for some real discussion.

[Sevei]

Well, I was role-playing a little bit and offered to make him the king of everything and all that jazz, and then in all seriousness, we discussed who we thought was scum, and basically I said what was in my point three of my last post, which are about the only useful thoughts I had on his role.

[Sevei]

READ MY POINT THREE FATE. IT'S ABOUT WHO TO BODYGUARD.

[Sevei]

Written a while ago, before dinner and family time and the claiming business:

Mina/MS: Why did you only consider me as a possible partner of SS and Plum until Quadz died?

I’m not going to speak for Mina. I don’t generally look for teams myself. I think you could easily be scum and have thought so since I replaced it. Notice that my first post keep questioning the ‘Town’ read everyone had on you?

1. For all the reasons elucidated before. Up until today you hopped in, make a post that looks like scum-hunting but was simply parroting, and disappear. That’s classic stay under the radar early game play.
2. You've contained your reads into a narrow band, not committing to very much to keep your options open.
3. Your claim to being the One Ring, Neighborizor, doesn’t make any sense from a Town perspective. If you didn’t already notice Town already has confirmed Masons and AGM’s claim of information sender. Set-up wise it doesn’t make a ton of sense to have Town aligned semi-redundant roles (Likewise I don’t believe that both Gandalf and VV are both Town).

1. I don't think I was parroting the argument about Plum; my first post was sorting it all out--things were a confused mess and the things people were arguing about were NOT the original claim at all. I saw scum at work in the confusion, trying to distract and redirect the argument away from Edge's original observation, which I thought made a lot of sense. Plum failed to convince me of her innocence in her subsequent replies.

2. I don't like to give lots of reads because I am of the school of thought which says giving "you" all of my reads makes it easier for "you" to manipulate me (generic "you").

3. I'm reasonably sure the masons are/were alignment-confirmed, but my role is NOT alignment-confirmed, and the neighbor of the night depends on how the vote goes during the day. Both scum and town can come into possession of the ring, but I personally don't do anything but talk to whoever gets it. Think about it: if you are scum, you should know your buddies' claims; you would know if one of them was secretly the One Ring. Therefore you would know the One Ring wasn't one of your buddies and would behave accordingly in the QT. You wouldn't stop playing the game just because you were in a QT, so it isn't really like being a mason or message-sender at all. (Also, as AGM may never get the ring, his power may never be used.) It makes plenty of sense and it's actually a pretty fun mechanic. I'll let you take that up with Andy.

@FATE: The One Ring in the first game was Mordor aligned, and it was a traitor to the Isengard faction, was it not? It's true heart is with Sauron, and it tries to destroy the good-aligned peoples of Middle-earth by corrupting them with promises of power, or in Gollum's case, sushi. Meanwhile, those good people would like to melt the ring in the fires of Mount Doom, which doesn't really appeal to it at all. Think about what you said and try to explain why the ring would want to go merrily off into the sunset with one of the "heroes." IT WOULDN'T.

Quadz never clarified how many people visited Edge on N1. In fact, he deliberately made a point of hiding the number of people when he claimed.

Um I disagree whole-heartedly. Because quadz saying “1 OF THEM WAS GANDALF” inherently implies that more than one person targeted Edge. And don’t say the other person was Quadz himself. That’s implied by his claim.

He used plural pronouns, but he also deliberately "[redacted]" his exact number of reads. I never said that the other person would be Quadz; what I am saying is that Quadz seems to have been hiding an exact number because he may have thought he was protecting town PRs. (i.e., He saw someone get a successful "investigate"; I'm guessing with both his Watcher AND his Voyeur abilities he got both name and action rather than just one or the other.)

So, on N1, Edge was watched AND roleblocked by Quadz, who was most definitely Town.

Therefore, either a) another town blocker stopped the kill; b) there was no kill; or c) Quadz blocked the kill.

In light of above you are missing d) Gandalf blocked the kill.

Additionally b is stupid in context unless the Mafia are absolute morons.

Yeah, I wasn't serious about the "B" option, but I was listing all options I could think of. If you go back and read my next couple of posts, you will see that I discuss your "D" quite a bit; it's the reason I'm NOT VOTING FATE.


****
Present:

MasterSpy...
In Mina-head's last post, she wrote about how MoI warned and warned her about Fate's tendency to mercilessly buss someone.

Magna keeps warning me Fate is a ruthless busser, but I entertain Fate being evil, I will spiral into madness. So...no. Never mind that gandalf the protective role targeted him when there was no Mafia kill.

Yet when I bring up this entire thing about the roleblock, MS NEVER entertains the possibility that Fate was the roleblocked scum killer in his subsequent posts and focuses mostly on SS and a little on me. Considering Mina's revelations about how MoI was concerned about Fate bussing Plum, AND her little "teehee nevermind THIS RIGHT HERE" comment that suggested EXACTLY WHAT MY CLAIM ABOUT QUADZ DID, then why avoid the issue altogether once I've claimed it in the open?

Singer:
Based on conversations in the QT, I am reasonably sure VV is town. Because Quadz didn't see him target Fate on N1 that has to mean he was roleblocked, and we know that Quadz, town blocker, did not block him. This means either someone else is a secret town roleblocker or that the scum have a roleblocker.

[Sevei]

I'm not buying the MS claim.

Isn't it very convenient that the two people who have been investigated are the known Vig (who decapitated Katy, obviously with a sword) and the confirmed Doctor? And that oops, looks like scum may not even be using swords that often anyway?

I see town-name assigned to scum-like ability, because you know who DOES use swords? Nazgul. A swordsmith would be much more useful for town in the first game, as in that game, town were the "good guys" whereas in this one, town are the most likely the primary sword users and potential scum are more of a mixed bag regarding their preferred weapons.

Flavorwise, the humans preferred swords, but that flavor most likely belonged to Plum-Boromir. Elves use bows (and we know there is an elf about); wizards use staves. SpyreX's "LOL GANDALF CAN'T BE IN GAME" is either cheeky scum who knows full well either he or his buddy is Gandalf or dumb-town who doesn't realize that he's got the power to find the effing godfather Gandalf. (And I don't believe SpyreX is dumb-town.)

My bets are still on the two Spys as our remaining scum and I will vote to lynch either one. Who gets the imbue?

[Sevei]

Forgot this one:

Hint: I'm most definitely not a Nazgul. Even a little bit.

More cheeky scum antics?

[Sevei]

He used plural pronouns, but he also deliberately "[redacted]" his exact number of reads. I never said that the other person would be Quadz; what I am saying is that Quadz seems to have been hiding an exact number because he may have thought he was protecting town PRs

So unless he specifically told you in QT how many people visited Edge the logical outcomes you are drawing are 100% pure speculation on your part.

Yeah, because everyone hasn't been speculating that? This has been a topic of discussion for some time.

Isn't it very convenient that the two people who have been investigated are the known Vig (who decapitated Katy, obviously with a sword) and the confirmed Doctor? And that oops, looks like scum may not even be using swords that often anyway?

Um what? When did Gandalf become confirmed to you? Curious.

Never said he was confirmed. SpyreX's "teehee" role about being able to find Gandalf means either a) Spyrex is playing a very weird town game and there is a Gandalf or b) Spyrex is being CHEEKY SCUM and flirting with danger by using his or his remaining buddy's true role name. (And since SpyreX is also claiming immortality, that's another point for his being cheeky scum who might also be the immortal Gandalf.)

The rest of your speculation about flavor is noted. Because no-one who survived in Andy’s first game ever use swords. Let me look at who that was –
<snip>
So of the 6 remaining people who could be Scum two are clear Sword users, 1 is clear Bow user, and 3 I don’t know enough flavor to say either way[/i].

To paraphrase, I quoted Andy where he said in the queue thingy that only characters that lived. Then asked if it was a joke. And got an awesome emote back saying it was.

SO apparently...the comment about only having characters that lived in the game was a joke, and it doesn't appear in the game rules, only in the "queue thingy."

[Sevei]

"Cheeky" isn't an insult, Fate. It means "saucy," like he's getting away with something and knows it.

As for VV, I have reason to believe he's town based on comments in the QT. He got right down to business in there and we discussed reads and the night's protects. Since I agreed with his reads on pretty much everyone, then it confirmed my town read on him.

[Sevei]

It wasn't that comment on it's own, even though it's the kind of loophole comment people make sometimes. I've been on and off the fence about you for a while, but Plum, Hohum, and MasterSpy were my biggest scum reads until after Hohum's flip. You were next on the list, and that comment is one that stood out.

[Sevei]

Actually I didn't know who he was going to protect. He didn't put it in the QT. I commented on the protection list, and speculated that your second-guessing Quadz at the end of D2 was to cover him that night (and if you recall, Quadz wasn't even on your protect list) and speculated the only two people I had town reads on, SS and myself, were the only uncovered ones. (I explained this several pages ago.) What he finally submitted was done via PM, not in the QT.

@ MS: I thought you meant Gandalf the CHARACTER not Gandalf the PLAYER. He's pretty much confirmed at this point, isn't he? Quadz saw him protecting Fate, and he's claimed, and furthermore, your claimed action said he didn't have a sword, so those three things together seem to support that he is being honest, unless proven-Town Quadz was lying or you are.

My comments on SpyreX in that post are because of the ORIGINAL post I made and my thoughts that you were talking about Gandalf the character rather than the player.

My comment on Elves was made because obviously there is an elf shooter in the game. Since Plum was a human, then I am thinking that the third mafia could very well be Gandalf, given SpyreX's claim (which, like I said, is either odd town or cheeky scum).

[Sevei]

@SpyreX: Where does it say Hohum had an unblockable shot? He doesn't say it, and it isn't in his flip.

[Sevei]

My comment on Elves in the second quote of mine that you addressed (not the one where I said I don't buy your claim) was to again point out that there is an Elf shooter in the game; I was addressing your comment here:

If you are willing to accept that Spyrex is telling the truth then your attack regarding Elves being Bow users as the primary Mafia is pretty out the window given the large number of Town players in the first game (Aragorn, Theodred, etc) who were Sword wielders.

I responded:

My comment on Elves was made because obviously there is an elf shooter in the game. Since Plum was a human, then I am thinking that the third mafia could very well be Gandalf, given SpyreX's claim (which, like I said, is either odd town or cheeky scum).

I never claimed Elves were the primary Mafia (and at least one wasn't, as Plum flipped Boromir); I said of the two remaining scum, one was definitely an Elf and the other was probably Gandalf. I am guessing Gandalf because either SpyreX really is a Balrog, or he is scum and either he or his buddy is Gandalf.

[Sevei]

And Gandalf did have a sword that he used in battle, but he used a staff on a more regular basis.

[Sevei]

You keep twisting what I'm saying.

Your point is that I'm undermining the idea that the mafia is a bunch of sword-wielders, when we know at least one of them isn't, and based on SpyreX's discussion of Gandalf, I'm guessing the other remaining scum is in fact Gandalf. I haven't been inconsistent about this at all. I think your claim is bogus, and therefore I am pointing out the evidence that proves to me that you are making a fake claim.

[Sevei]

Actually the more I've argued with you the less certain I've become about my SpyreX read because it actually makes more sense that he is telling the truth than being cheeky scum. I want him to talk about this "unblockable" shot before I say more. Other than that, no, I don't assume he would be truthful about his abilities as scum; that's why I was calling him cheeky--because if he is scum he is being pretty ballsy to talk about Gandalf (the character) being in the game.

And yes, I'm doing some speculating, but I'm drawing on what people are doing and saying and trying to put the pieces together. IF ANYTHING speculating is getting people to talk more and FINALLY this day has moved passed the "I KNO U R BUT WHAT AM I" crap that dominated the first part of it. As to your second point, I remember Gandalf almost exclusively using his staff, and the wizard's staff is almost synonymous with his power in most stories; I would guess if the Gandalf character truly is in the game and submits a kill then his kill flavor would be related to magic, not steel.

[Sevei]

First

, Fate, please stop calling me a “he.”

Second:

It doesn't really matter if you don’t

care

about flavor, it won't change anything. The effing One Ring is basically the storage bin for all of Sauron’s malice, cruelty, and will, so explain to me how it would ever be buddies with the “heroes”? It was a traitor in the last game but only until it could get to Sauron. The flavor is and has been 100% accurate in these games. The person whose alignment is not confirmed in the neighbor situation with me is the ringbearer’s. The ring never was and never will be or could be on the same side as the Heroes because it is PURE EVIL. And the town in this game are also beings of pure evil.

Third:

You don’t really think I will flip scum. Why? Because you are talking about needing more night protection then just tonight. If you thought I was scum with VV, you wouldn’t need more than one night’s protection because you would be thinking you could lynch one scum today, get protected by Gandalf tonight, and then even if he died tonight, you could lynch the other scum tomorrow.

Instead you want VV alive to protect Gandalf tonight so you can be alive on N4, too. WHY would there be a N4 if you really thought I was going to flip scum today and that VV would flip scum tomorrow?

Fourth:

Are you sure you haven’t already been hitting the drugs hard? Because a Neighborizor isn’t that big a stretch if you have any clue what Mafia games are about.

Neither is scum-mason, so do you have anything more then speculation about role mechanics that would support your hypothesis? (There is more about this in my ISO 18/Post 1076). (Calm down, Fate, this is rhetorical.)

(More coming, just breaking up a big wall.)

[Sevei]

Finally:

My read on you, MS, isn’t based on role speculation, it’s based on things you've been doing since D1, which is when I first started talking about you:

It is notable that when MasterSpy replaced in, Mina made a case on Singer (who MoI has mentioned briefly since then, but is not focusing on) and MoI made a case on Mari. Up until this point neither Singer nor Mari had been truly scrutinized (aside from Quadz’s case on Mari which was at a standstill), and now Mari/Hohum is a likely lynch candidate.

Also, when MS entered the game and these cases were made, what happened? Attention was taken away from Plum

, and she has since relaxed and no longer seems quite as driven by the nervous energy that informed her early play.

It’s a bit of a conundrum that MS is in fact a hydra; dealing with both heads (and one that apparently “waffles” a lot) allows for a certain amount of grace for inconsistency that isn’t afforded to the rest of us. MS scum could be getting away with target fishing and fence-sitting solely because of this, which I don’t like—especially

since MoI has pointed out how often Mina is waffling in their QT. I often find drawing attention to something like that is a tell of sorts; it’s something he’s worried about, so he mentions it to sort of diffuse suspicions of it

. Also of note:

Mina’s first post was very sympathetic to Plum; MoI’s posts considerably less so.

I also pointed out MoI-head’s two comments that HoHum or Plum needed to be lynched, but that his entire case on her was this:

Her response to Edge here is much more along the line of ‘Ooops, tehehehe’. Damning? No. But inconsistent enough that I think it scummy.

I said it then, and I will say it now: HE DIDN’T THINK THE CASE ON PLUM WAS DAMNING BUT HE HAD HER IN HIS TOP TWO READS. Any time he talked about a lynch, it was of both Hohum or Plum. One town, one scum. I also said this:

MS and Plum make sense as partners to me; Plum’s relief at being removed from the spotlight is apparent.

MS is keeping a safe distance from Plum, not totally clearing her but not focusing on her, either.

I can also see the Hohum/Plum pairing, but Mari’s early interactions with Plum didn’t strike me that way; I need to do some more rereading for that.

Either way, I can only fit two of these three into a scum equation, and Plum fits in both pairings. I’ve got an “either/or” read on MS and Hohum; still trying to work it out.

And here we are on D3 and Hohum was town, eliminating my "either/or" read.

I still think the hydra is getting away with literal murders here because they are playing a sort of good cop/bad cop type game, in which Mina waffles and plays (as Fate called her) the "girly girl" who wouldn't vote and MoI playing the firm and stern voice of authority. If one makes a mistake, the other glosses it over.

LIKE HERE:

I have to agree with this. Seriously, you had a guilty AND hohum was acting suspicious as fuck and you didn't vote for him right out of the gate? I mean, I know you like to waffle, but this is kinda beyond that.

Correction – Mina is the Queen of Waffle Hut. As soon as I got on I rectified that issue. I personally think Mina needs a Mafiascum Life Coach who can teach her a little self-confidence.

Also, MasterSpy and SpyreX's role sound a bit mutually exclusive. Two roles that hunt for people in an already all-PR game? That's pretty strong. The fact that this "Gandalf" figure hasn't been outed already makes me extra skeptical of his existence.

Agreed. Along those lines what are your thoughts on the Gandalf / VV dichotomy and the Mason / Neighborizor / your ability dynamic?

Nice deflections going on here. AGM says: you didn't vote for him with a guilty? MoI puts it on Mina; what bothers me is not the fact that Mina didn't vote right away; as a "swordsmith," their "guilty" isn't as rock solid as a cop's, and furthermore, Hohum claimed right away, so it made sense that he would have a sword. What BOTHERS me is the extra commenting about the self-confidence. It's back to that nervous energy and the drawing too much attention to something when a simple statement would do.

In point two, AGM says "these roles are a bit mutually exclusive." MoI says: Agreed, but what about this other situation? SAYS THE GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ....PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN.

AND THEN THERE IS THIS:

Why has SpyreX suddenly been tacked onto your lynch list? The only things you've even said about him during this game are:

Quadz, Spyrex and Katy earn my strongest Town reads so far. Everyone not mentioned in this catch-up falls solely in Sort-Town / Null for me.

SpyreX was early on Plum and had felt very townish

SpyreX confuses me. Maybe I'm too prone to trusting players who are early on scum wagons, but I had a town read on him for most of the game. Aside from his Plum push, his early request not to have the ring and overall activity felt townish. (There was a moment in which I wondered if he was Mariyta's buddy when he voted her after Mariyta's wagon seemed like a rising star, but my doubts evaporated after Plum's flip.) Magna actually trusted him more than Fate, because he claimed that Fate is always a mega-busser. Hell, I even predicted to Magna last night that SpyreX might be the NK because of all the WIFOM over whom VV would protect.

So you are claiming a Normal power that is useless since Gandalf can’t be in the fucking game (aka completely useless) but a Super-Power that is awesome. That makes absolutely no sense in context of your ‘I don’t want the Ring’ Day 1 play.

This feels like what happened with Plum, when you kept saying that either she or Hohum needed to be lynched, but you really never had a case on her at all. Your only comment on SpyreX so far is his weird claim, which makes far less sense than any other claim so far, and you aren't pressing him about it at all, instead focusing on Singer whose claim makes sense, and mine, which is unquestionably flavor proof if you know anything at all about the plot of LotR.

Combine the very smooth way the heads are playing off of one another, the inconsistencies with Plum and now SpyreX, the subtle liar's tells peppered throughout the posts, a dubious claim, and the fact that MoI tried every way he could to twist everything I've said today into something scummy, I have a very clear scum read on him.

Vote: MasterSpy

[Sevei]

Lol @ "jedi mind tricks"...

also known as "She said something that makes too much sense so she must be using the Force..."

[Sevei]

So you are knowingly voting for town because SpyreX is your capslock buddy and Mina made you feel all warm and fuzzy? /roll eyes

[Sevei]

1.

SEVEI IS TOWN:

2. Sorry, I don't play that way. I'd rather be lynched then play the "sweet thing."

3. And just for the record:

Also, MasterSpy is scum. Soooo very scum.

[Sevei]

You asked, I answered.

And as far as "the past," this comment is really enough:

BUT I DONT HAVE IT IN MY HEART TO VOTE SPYREX.

NOR MINA, SINCE SHE CALLED US "STAR CROSSED LOVERS"

SO SEVEI DIES.

FUCK YO FLAVAH.

1. You don't have the heart to vote SpyreX;
2. You don't have the heart to vote Mina because she caused you star-crossed lovers;
3. So you ARE voting me, "FUCK YO FLAVAH," which pretty much indicates that you know good and well I'm not scum but you don't give a shit.

You're also anticipating a N4, and if you *really* think I am scum, there wouldn't be a N4 because you would lynch me today and VV tomorrow (and the only reason you've given as to why I'm scum is b/c I "won't bus VV," so if you're that confident on your reads, then you would be anticipating that the game would be over tomorrow. I pointed this out before and you called jedi mind tricks because it makes sense and you're too warm and fuzzy to want to think critically like that.

Also, you spent a huge amount of time on D1 calling Eso scum, and MS replaced Eso...does that jog your memory?

And as for not being able to call you scum, the only reason I'm not is because you were Katy's mason and I have assumed thus far that that also meant you were alignment confirmed. However, pushing a lynch on town just because you don't have the heart to vote one of the two really scummy people isn't very pro-town, so your play is really leaving a lot to be desired right now, and your intent is questionable.

[Sevei]

Lynching town because you feel like it? That does suck if you're town, and it pissed you off when Hohum did it.

Prev. Edit...UM, no. I didn't say that. I said his masonry is the only reason I haven't called him scum.

[Sevei]

That's not calling him scum, that's questioning his intent. He's basically SAID that he doesn't care about the fact that flavor unequivocally makes me town and that he won't vote for you or Mina b/c his heart isn't in it, and if he acknowledges that flavor supports my claim as town and says "Fuck yo flavah" anyway, then yes, his intent is questionable; it doesn't make him scum, but it

is

frustrating.

And Fate, YOU'RE THE ONE who said your heart wasn't in voting for them, not me. Then you said I had to die, "FYF," not me.

[Sevei]

/facepalm

[Sevei]

The only one pretty much proven to be confirmable by mod is AGM, who has claimed an ability that actually gets him a note from the mod. Masons are generally confirmed, but not always, so while it's generally a safe conclusion to make, it's not guaranteed, either, and unless more than one of the masons say they are alignment confirmed, then it can't actually BE confirmed until a flip; the same with me; flavor confirms me, not the mod. Stop being a stubborn mule about this and start voting for actual scum.

[Sevei]

OMG FATE. You know as well as I do that some games have scum masons. Therefore, for the masons in any game to be 100% mod confirmed, there have to be at least two alive who can say that yes indeed, they are mod-confirmed. BUT it's generally accepted that they are alignment confirmed, and I've been operating under that assumption like the rest of us have been. However, it's more like a theorem, like the Pythagorean Theorem or the Theory of Gravity--they are still theoretical even though no one has ever disproven them. SO while we accept that masons are most likely mod-confirmed, there is no way to 100% prove it without flips. Doesn't mean you aren't, just that it can't be proven.

[Sevei]

You should be lynching MasterSpy.

[Sevei]

Why should I trust that it's a town win just because you say it will be when you're sitting her voting fucking town and you fucking know it?

[Sevei]

I don't trust you because you're wrong about me, so wtf else are you wrong about? And the only one who has said anything about being able to "find Gandalf" is your good buddy SpyreX, so maybe you should ask him, since the eye pinpointed a Gandalf this morning. Maybe it was the character Gandalf and not the player, did you think of that? The message didn't say "gandalf5166" after all.

That's as good as I can give you on that because I am the ring, and all I get to do is sit in a QT with whoever you vote in there every night.

[Sevei]

The only reason you have said you think I'm scum to begin with is because I think VV is town, so when I flip town, do you still read him as scum?

[Sevei]

That sounds EXACTLY like how Plum would say that, too. /eyeroll

If I trusted you to get it right in the end and not be like all "omg, I can't vote for SPYREXXXXXX AND MINA LOOOOOVES ME!" then I might not care so much, but you flip flop like a beached whale. Day One you were all over Eso and "MS is dangerous scum" and now it's all "your vote on MS is LOL." You're wrong about me, and so I don't trust your scumdar, and if your scumdar isn't broken then you're just trying to be a hero, which may be fun for you but makes it less fun for others while you sit here and talk trash to them. (And that goes for ALL of you who have been resorting to calling people stupid/VI/etc. today; learn to play the game without insulting people's intelligence.)

You're using my resistance to being lynched as a scumtell when you know you would be doing the same damn thing.

[Sevei]

Being wrong and being stubborn doesn't mean someone is scum, and furthermore, Andy just confirmed this isn't a bastard mod, so it isn't even a minute possibility anymore. Fate can't be scum; AGM can't be scum unless he is really bad or he wouldn't have claimed a power like he has claimed.

MasterSpy still needs to die.

[Sevei]

Again, can we cut the personal insults? This game is getting nastier by the post.

1) Fate, it was 5 in the morning. I was about to go to bed. I had been working on school stuff, and the only comment I had the brainpower left for was to say you weren't scum just because you're wrong and stubborn.

2) You're one to talk about people voting one person "given their earlier suspicions" considering you thought I was town until I wouldn't goosestep with you on the VV issue. All of a sudden I just had to be scum because I disagreed with Fate, never mind that I had my own reasons to believe he was town, and no, I wasn't going to pop up in the thread and say "yeah, I think VV is town b/c he told me his weakness in the QT, so here you go, scum, have fun with that."

3) The answer to why he didn't protect Quadz is he had information that the One Ring was in play and you didn't. He was also concerned that there was a scum with power to destroy the ring: see D1 discussion about AGM and he believed that destroying the ring would be bad for town. (Oh yeah, and Quadz wasn't on your list, either.)

4) When I got my role PM, I had to ask Andy what would happen if anything happened to me in the game. He said there would be no nightly QT with me but that otherwise the game would continue. So no, nothing will happen if I leave the game, but if I had to ask, it makes sense that others would wonder and/or assume some consequence, too.

5) I'm not opposed to part one of your plan in 1255; however lynching me is stupid because I'm the one ring and flavor-proof. You should lynch MasterSpy.

6) Our QT was basically:
*Andy opens thread*
Me: I'm the Precious, what do you want? A big garden? Doom and Despair? Or sushi, like Gollum?
Vas: Lol. No seriously, what do we talk about? I think Spys are scums. Thinking about Fate's plan.
Me: Hey, me too. And if scum think you're covering his list then they obv won't kill them so idk. It's a double bind.
Vas: What about these people and who would you protect?
Me: Fate was suspicious of Quadz but idk, I thought he was town last night but you never know for sure and Fate makes sense; Spy=scum, MS=Scum, SS=town, Gandalf=town. Then I talked about the protects. (And I've already explained what I said about them in the thread, so you can go back and find that. It was point three in some post.) Then I said something about all of that being lots of WIFOM, and I hope I'm not going to have to eat this post later b/c it wouldn't be fun.
Vas: Gave me his reads and told me his secret. Speculated about whether his character from the first game made it into this one.
Me: Lol, yeah, I remember SpyreX being all "I am not a Nazgul" so maybe, lol.
Vas: OK, sent in my list.
Me: Now we wait. Boo.
*Andy closes thread.*

[Sevei]

Or we could just lynch scum, which is actually what is necessary for town victory. In fact, lynching scum is better for assuring town victory than lynching town.

[Sevei]

/roll eyes

That is craplogic and you know it.

[Sevei]

And at least two people left are scum, and they have their own agenda. Doubtful they will play nicely for long.

[Sevei]

Because I'm not saying go ahead and kill me? And because I want to lynch someone I think is scum? Your definition of "nice" is pretty different than mine.

[Sevei]

Right, because if I went through your plan with a fine tooth comb and found any flaws, I would want to broadcast that to them so they can break your plan? Because they're not already trying to break it themselves?

[Sevei]

Because, Fate, I'd rather lynch scum.

[Sevei]

Also, MasterSpy is scum. Soooo very scum. Definitely more dangerous than hohum too.

MS and SpyreX do not have wool over my eyes, nor can they fool me for the rest of the game if they ARE HYPOTHETICALLY SCUM.

For the last fucking time SpyreX will not live until endgame, nor will MasterSpy, so get your patines unbunched and get on the WINTRAIN TO VICTORY

MS has been scumhunting and has clear issues on many things and has dropped plenty of towntells.

What changed?

[Sevei]

You didn't think I was scummy until I wouldn't goosestep with you about VV; at least that's when you first started saying stuff about it in the thread. Until then you seemed to think I was pretty town...but that's back when I actually agreed with your reads, right?

[Sevei]

I would rather lynch MasterSpy than SpyreX.

And we don't have to lynch somebody right this minute, either...we have over a week to figure this out.

If tomorrow is LYLO if we mislynch today and SpyreX is telling the truth, and you've already determined to lynch me tomorrow if he does flip town, then it will be gfg for the town.

Right now people are dealing in false dichotomies when speculating about teams, and playing like that will kill town in the end.

And, if you're just

that

thickheaded and still

really

believe I will flip scum if SpyreX flips town then you need to lynch me today, before LYLO, and then MasterSpy needs to die tomorrow.

And if tomorrow is LYLO if we mislynch today, then can we afford MYLO today?

[Sevei]

And by "thick-headed" I mean willfully stubborn, not unintelligent.

And if you

are

that stubborn, then at least when I flip town there is a chance of you actually not screwing it up tomorrow based on "Welp, he was town so she can't be, lololol."

[Sevei]

This comment made me think it was LYLO, but I didn't do the math:

You can /whine all you want about how he is the big bad bully but while me actually being scum would be tech and all as it sits you're gonna have 1 shot to untie the knot.

The second thing is the discussion of lynching me if he flips town, and if people are that worried about it, and if he does actually happen to be telling the truth and everyone is thinking it has to be me OR him then we have a problem, because I know that I'm town, but I don't know if he is, and if he's right about it being LYLO and he's also telling the truth and Fate won't listen to reason then he will lead the lynch mob tomorrow and GFG.

And you're right that his claim doesn't make sense at all. Especially with the Eye/Gandalf thing. And it makes more sense to me that the Eye would be Mordor aligned and therefore would have focused on Gandalf the character (who may not be in the game), not the player, but Spy claimed Balrog, not Eye, so I haven't worked that out. And Gandalf could be in the game because even if he died in the last game, the character Gandalf was immortal (he resurrected/went into the West/etc.). Which SpyreX has also said of himself. But there's also the element of "why would scum make up such a weird claim, and wouldn't they have fake claims so they wouldn't have to?"

My read on MS is a lot less murky. And there is something else about someone else that isn't making complete sense to me and I'm still trying to work that out, so I'm not ready to change my vote or see anyone lynched yet.

And yeah, about this:

Sevei can a.) neighborize and b.) rolecop said neighborizer.

I'm not a rolecop. I only know what you tell me in the QT. It's fun...you should ask VV about the pm you get when you get imbued; I get a BCC of it. It strictly gives you someone to talk to at night.

[Sevei]

1. First, I have a message from Gandalf from last night. He said to tell Fate that if you don't lynch VV today he will hunt you down and shoot you in the face.
2. AGM, did you send a message to anyone last night or did you use your roleblock, and if you did, who did you block and why?
3. I am still convinced MS is scum, and I do NOT get how Spy's flip legitimizes MS's claim in the least; they're non-sequitor.

Vote: Masterspy

Imbue: VV When he agrees to Fate's terms. Force them to kill me or forfeit a kill.

[Sevei]

I promised him I would pass it along, so I did. I don't agree, but I passed it along.

And AGM, what action did you take last night?

[Sevei]

I talked to Gandalf about MS and he talked about VV.

[Sevei]

I know what he was thinking about doing; he never confirmed it.

[Sevei]

stop stalling and just SAY IT

what bad could POSSIBLY happen?

I asked you first.

[Sevei]

Yeah, that's basically what we talked about. He talked about his night action in the beginning then didn't bring it up again. Told me to tell you that message in case he died. That's about it. There wasn't that much to talk about MS or VV either; I restated my case in case I was the NK and he said he saw it but was still convinced VV was scum and he didn't think there were four scum.

We also tried to figure out what a reporter is, and figured it's investigative.

AGM is being pretty evasive for someone who has only sent his messages to one confirmed scum and one most-likely scum.

[Sevei]

Reporter (who was apparently investigation proof)

Why was he investigation proof?

[Sevei]

1. I asked because it seems like a superfluous comment for you to make since you didn't investigate him.
2. Your comments about people's intelligence, including mine, are quite rude and uncalled for.
3. I was wrong. So?

[Sevei]

Vas, what did you do last night?

[Sevei]

I'm not an effing survivor; just because AGM pulled some accusation of third party out of his ass and threw it in the ring today doesn't make it true. I'm Mordor (Town) aligned and since you're also aligned with Mordor (the town), if you lose, I lose.

[Sevei]

And derp, roommate was checking for her role pm in another game and didn't log out.

Are you accounting for there being two scum left?

[Sevei]

BECAUSE I AM THE GDMF ONE RING AND I HAVE NO POWERS SO WHY IN THE HELL WOULD I WANT TO EFFING IMBUE MYSELF YOU STUBBORN MULE? Katy and Quadz were the towniest town on D1 aside form EDGE but YOU didn't want the power.

And NO, I am NOT voting myself because it's STUPID to knowingly vote town as town, especially when the person wanting to captain us all to a win thinks that his wall of spam means something CONSIDERING I'M THE ONE RING.

[Sevei]

What was I going to say when you were all. OOH SEVEI, want the RING?

"Um, thanks, but I am the ring, so no."

Right.

[Sevei]

Because for all his filibustering crap, he's confirmed town.

[Sevei]

I wish you would get it through your head that I'm town; there's a difference between wanting to knock you upside the head for being a stubborn ass and wanting to kill you.

[Sevei]

Except the oh so cheeky Spyrex who "wasn't a Nazgul, not even close" also said there was definite scum among the confirmeds, there was a teaparty (which no one will define for me despite repeated requests but I'm assuming it has to do with location of scum on wagons) on the non-overlapping PlumLynch/QuadzImbue wagons, and that "we only get one shot to untie this knot." Seeing as how SpyreX is the type of player who can sit there and tell the truth as scum and avoid being called on it for most of the game, how many of these other statements are true, just like his "not a Nazgul" one?

If there are four scum, we have to be missing something. You said you were accounting for me being the balance breaker,but I'm not Go back and look at your plans, and put the following pairs in: MS/AGM; MS/VV; AGM/VV. Does your plan still work if you lynch town today?

[Sevei]

Um, no? I'm asking you to consider all possibilities. And wtf, we've been speculating whether or not there were 3 or 4 all day. It's not news. I have no idea if today is LYLO or not, but you should consider that possibilty.

Will your plan work when I flip town IF there are two scum out there?

[Sevei]

If there are four scum, we have to be missing something. You said you were accounting for me being the balance breaker,but I'm not Go back and look at your plans, and put the following pairs in: MS/AGM; MS/VV; AGM/VV. Does your plan still work if you lynch town today?

I know town is stacked, but 4-8 is a terrible, terrible set-up.

It's obviously not AGM/VV because AGM hasn't hammered me. (And you're the one who thinks I'm scum, so why do you think AGM/VV is an option?) And do you really think a VV/MS makes any sense whatsoever given VV's reluctance to vote you?

I've been paranoid about you the whole game, too. Right now I'm paranoid of everyone but Fate and SS (maybe still a little of her) because they're confirmed town. The part of me that believes VV is town is a little larger than the the part of me that is afraid he's playing me, and I don't trust you or AGM at ALL.

I wasn't paranoid about a four person scum team until SpyreX said something yesterday. If you go back and read my reaction to what he said yesterday, I said it would be better to lynch me instead of him THEN because if he was telling the truth and flipped town and I got autolynched the next day and he was right about there being four scum then we would be screwed. I'm also not the only one who's been talking about a four person scum team today (or a 9:2:1), and I wasn't even the first person to bring it up today, so...yeah.

The reason I told Fate to look at those pairs is because they are comprised of the three people I trust least (MS, AGM, and VV, in that order). Fate is convinced he has to lynch me, and since he's apparently hinging his plan on the fact that I will flip something other than town, then I want to know if he's thought through all possible contingencies and ramifications of lynching someone who will flip town in the event there is a fourth scum. If there are only three, then it's not a problem, but without knowing the set-up, we can't afford to take chances; he's banking on me me flipping scum or third party, which WON'T HAPPEN, and he's also banking that scum will play ball. If all of these things were 100% accounted for and a town victory was assured, I wouldn't care about being lynched, but I DON'T believe we have it in the bag at all. (By the way, I notice you didn't ask why I thought AGM/MS was a viable option.) It is NOT unreasonable to ask him to be fully accountable.

I don't know that I can answer your question about what teams make sense, because this is mafia, and people LIE. People bus, distance, buddy...all kinds of things to win the game, and at this point, anything is possible. All I know for sure is I'm town, and Fate's town, and SS's town. If Fate can examine his plan with a critical eye and account for every single variation that he isn't currently accounting for and still say it works, then I might trust him to do it...but he either can't or won't, so I'm NOT going purposely take myself out of the game since I'm town, no matter wtf Fate or anyone else believes.

Also:

I'm not scum. Our play hasn't been perfect, and we're in the suspect pool by PoE, but there is no reason for anyone--even someone who has us as his top suspect--to be soooo convinced MS is scum that they refuse to wait one more day to lynch them.

So why are you fine with rushing my lynch?

***
SS, why didn't you gift on N2?

[Sevei]

Your vote was already on me, or did you forget?

[Sevei]

You would do well to stop confusing "obedience" with a town tell. You would also do well to question why AGM has been content for two days to do whatever you want without asking any questions at all.

[Sevei]

After all the nastiness that you (and a couple of others) have spewed in this game, this plan better fucking work, Fate.

[Sevei]

Ah, Hubris, thy name is FATE.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with what everyone has already said, but my blinding rage was spent in the dead QT. Much love to Vas and Singer, without whom I would have really lost my mind near the end. Vas's surprise post was awesome.

AGM...now look where "playing nice" got us. Don't be such a snotty twit next time, ok? And for you Fate...he who yells loudest usually gets a smack on his bottom and a timeout, not a cookie and a shiny new toy. There's a saying I learned from my mom, and it would do you some good to learn it. "Don't count your chickens before they hatch"; you may THINK you have things all figured out, but YOU NEVER KNOW. This game would have ended so much differently had you or AGM actually realized that your plan had some serious holes in it, or if you had at least considered the possibility that it did. (Reminding me of another saying..."Pride goeth before a fall.")

Also, survivors just have to live to the end, right? "The survivor is a lone player who wins if he is alive when any faction achieves their win condition" (Mafia Wiki). So why in the hell did you assume I would have voted with mafia and not town? That doesn't make any sense, especially since town was ahead. /FACEPALM.

And sure, everyone made some mistakes here and there--not revealing who visited Edge on N1; posting the hydra-QT; etc., but for the most part, what lost this game for town was one player being convinced he was right and another player mindlessly sheeping him. We could have lynched MS on D4 had either one of Fate or AGM not been so damn stubborn.

Finally, thank you for finally answering the teaparty question, SpyreX. I had a vague idea what it meant because of context but it was crippling some of my posting because I couldn't nail it down and didn't want to use it incorrectly and have it bite me back...not that it would have mattered much since Fate had a bee up his butt anyway.

[Sevei]

And in case anyone missed it in the Dead QT: I admitted my biggest mistake there. I should have held off on the ring reveal until later, but in the context of where we were in the game, I confused myself by overthinking and missed the obvious...which dawned on me not too long after I submitted that message. So yeah, I know I goofed there, especially since Quadz was really the only one who could have confirmed it at that point.

[Sevei]

Prev. Edit. The LOSS isn't the reason for the vitriol. The way the loss came about, and the amount of personal abuse inflicted--that's the reason for the vitriol.
***
Re: Mina's post:
The amount of personal abuse that was heaped on players in this game has a lot to do with post-game rage. Fate's behavior helped drive two people out of the game early on, and he continuously antagonized anyone who disagreed with him at any point. He also basically did things like tell me to "talk sweeter" to him next time if I didn't want to be lynched, which in any other context would be sexual harassment, and it's quite insulting, especially considering that (and this conclusion is based on words spoken in the game) you advanced as far as you did in the game because of the star-crossed lovers thing. Your hydra-partner was also abusive to a lot of people, and even though he has apologized, his words caused a lot of consternation. The end doesn't always justify the means, and it is possible to play mafia by not being verbally abusive, and when you sow abuse, you reap it. When you call people stupid for disagreeing with you and then you end up being wrong (and causing everyone else to lose), you eat those words. If either Fate or Magna had been less abusive during the game itself, they might not be getting such a negative backlash now. (And MoI is kind of rubbing things in now, and that's really not nice, either.) Begrudging everyone their righteous indignation now isn't very fair.

Also @Mina:
"someone like Sevei will post crap all day, and when she shows up, ignore the cases on every other player in the game and coincidentally latches on to both killers."

Not sure what you mean by "someone like Sevei," but...

I may not post a lot, especially early on (and I had some issues preventing access for a time, anyway), but when I did get caught up in the thread, a lot had happened. I didn't

ignore

the cases on anyone else; I felt they were empty and against likely Town so I didn't address them. (And not posting a lot

doesn't

affect reading comprehension.)

Once I sat down and parsed through the case on Plum and tried to make sense of it, it was easy to see she was scum. Esurio was trying to kick up clouds of confusion, and some other clouds of confusion from other townies were floating around, and Edge definitely helped obfuscate matters a bit with their refusal to actually explain half of their reads, but I had a more objective view as a latecomer who was also Town. As for you/MoI, the way you kept Plum at the top of your list when discussing lynches while doing your best to redirect attention to other players was fishy right away. (There are two other tells I think I have discovered about MoI as scum; one was mentioned somewhere in the QTs, but I'll keep the other card close to the vest for future games.) I didn't just

latch on

to either of you

coincidentally

.

****

Magna, you managed the win despite three of us insisting you were scum with all we had, but we would have hammered you on D4 if Fate had not just shut down and not listened to anyone else like he did (and had he not refused to go back and look at the previous days' events) and had AGM not decided to just forego anything aside following Fate. I will give you props for winning over Fate, though. That was an essential factor in your win, and since he is quite mercurial in temperament, it IS a genuine accomplishment, and obviously one of the best things you could have done to secure your win. However, there is no need to bash other players as mistakes were made, by everyone, including you; the difference is that you also

did

do the two most important things you needed to do to win: win Fate, and figure out that the imbued powers could be blocked and then time the subsequent blocks and kills accordingly (but please remember you were also working with a lot more information at that point then town was, and that town couldn't have found out that information via gameplay alone).

I

did

get too much into mechanics (and the Eye of Sauron on Gandalf thing was a big part of that, which it wouldn't have been had we not had a player named Gandalf in a game where Gandalf was possible scum), but I work out ideas by talking them out, and I jumped the gun on the reveal because of that. Unfortunately our discussion only confirmed to me that you were scum, but made me question my scum read on SpyreX. Sigh, lol. Another mistake I made was not pointing out that a possible motive for you clearing Singer was so you could NK her. (Though that would have been shot down based on the assumption that if imbued VV protected her he couldn't be RB'd.)

One thing I'm proud of: I never believed your fake claim, which makes me VERY HAPPY and might be the best thing I did all game. It might have worked, though, if you hadn't plugged in hohum AND Gandalf. (I know you couldn't afford to use anyone else's name in there, though.) I would have been skeptical no matter what, but claiming to have investigated those two players, and in particular, Gandalf instead of Singer on N2, is why I definitely didn't believe you.

AGM, you lynched me first, and I flipped town. Didn't that make you question Fate at all? I also have a problem with the "always follow confirmed town" rule when it's obvious the confirmed town is dead wrong and obv-scum is sitting there laughing through it all. There was a time in D4 I wish everyone would have just stepped back from the game and taken a collective breath and tried to work things out calmly, but Fate's impassioned, near tears plea to lynch me undid any hope of that; if I had been more on the ball, maybe I could have beaten Fate to the punch there and changed things a bit.

Finally, sure, mistakes were made all around, but ultimately town lost because Fate (and AGM) would not acknowledge that there were holes in his plan and he therefore lynched someone (me) he has repeatedly stated he never believed to be scum. I don't care if Fate was confirmed, AGM, you should have gone over his plans with a fine tooth comb and seen at least the possibility that he was missing something. The acrimony in endgame is not because of the loss; it's because of the way Fate and AGM so condescendingly insisted they were right when they weren't (something AGM still won't acknowledge; props to Fate for doing so) and the way they treated people. (See paragraph one.)

[Sevei]

What about your vote on me? Before VV vs. MS was really an issue? Why me over MS, when the only logical third-party I could have been was survivor?

[Sevei]

<3 SS

@Fate: I do not hate you, and I never wanted you dead in game (in fact, go read my QT with Gandalf. ). (The only town I really wanted dead in game was hohum, and I got that wish.) However, I did want to throttle you a little bit. You weren't the only reason town lost; we all could have done at least one thing differently, and things still may not have gone our way. Thank you for taking your share of responsibility.

@Andy: I didn't mean to come across as a hater, but I did want to point out where some of the acrimony was coming from. I'm sorry if it was too much.

@AGM: I don't know what I would have done on D5. D4 ended with me thinking there were four scum, and then I got all the information I needed from the QT, so I can now SAY I would have done A, B, or C, but I don't KNOW if that would be honest or if it would be tainted with the information I've had since N4. You got to go into D5 without that information and can be honest about your reaction. The best I can do is say that I understand your vote on D5. Read the Dead QT; I predicted what would happen as soon as I learned the imbued person could be blocked. There wouldn't have been many other ways to interpret that block for those of you still living. MS did their homework with the roleblock, and there was no way town could have been privy to that information.

However, I think the breakdown happened on D4. That's where and when the game was lost, even if MS didn't realize it yet. No one ever made an actual case on me. MS came close but aside from "she looked like she was bussing Plum" and "lol flavor spec" there wasn't anything there. If we had all stayed calmer, we might have been able to sort it out better then. I should have made the post about calming down and backing up from the game and maybe even suggested everyone walk away from it for an entire physical day. Maybe that would have helped perspective. It was very frustrating from my perspective, especially when you said things like you did to me. SpyreX got to me on D3, and I was wound up with flavor speculation; Fate was in a frenzy; MoI was pissing Singer off by insulting her all the time; VV was reacting to Fate, and you were coming along like Stillwell Angel to me and saying you were agreeing with Fate and not really posting much else. It was very, very frustrating, which is perfect for scum. If we had all handled D4 better, things might have gone very differently.