268: Bugsy Malone Mafia - Game over. Mod learns lesson

[Adele]

confirm!

[Adele]

Random

vote: Talitha

[Adele]

Preemptive bandwagoning accusation. He hasn't yet but he will.
Custom's don't last when the whole world has been opened up to them. Eventually they change to the influx or the influx takes the customsof those there. Why live with your customs when others have been shown to you. Eventually you will give in to the social pressure. Just like the new players have started doing random votes at the begginings of their 2nd and 3rd games because people random voted in their first games and they steal such a custom.

Now I implore you to stop voting randomly and customarily in your first game, but rather to begin with a guided vote.

Tamuz, you explain how random voting may become a habit, but not why that is a bad thing.

Just to clarify, you're against voting randomly, preferring to vote someone for doing something (admittedly very annoying) that not only has he not yet done in this game, but that is his habit - so if he does go ahead and bandwagon, your statement seems to imply that that isn't scummy behaviour for him. Correct?

My vote, I must confess, was not precisely speaking "random", but arbitrary (based not on chance, but impulse, caprice or whimsy). I didn't use a randomiser, but ran my eye down the list and picked the first to jump out at me. The reason I didn't use the correct term was because I couldn't remember it but so nearly could; it was on the tip of my tongue, which was, by the by, way irritating. Anyway.
Do you

really

want Fritzler to get lynched? If everyone else jumped on your vote real quick and he died, would you like that? I hope not that'd be a bit nuts.

I submit, therefore, that your vote was a little arbitrary too.

Why are we voting at all at this point in the game? It stimulates discussion, right? So if you, like me, are kinda new and don't know everyone too well (though I am familiar with Fritz's yen for the bandwagon), I reckon a random or arbitrary vote might be a sensible starting behaviour.

[Adele]

I don't want to be misunderstood.
I don't nessicerly find anything perticularly wrong with random voting, but I guess i'm less sure of it's use and I feel like doing something a little different this time.

That's cool as far as I'm concerned. I assumed that you were talking about your own plans, but not asking anything of others. My question was aimed at Tamuz, as to whether and why random voting's not the right action for someone relatively new to the game.

Tamuz seemed to be asking others not to random vote ("Now I implore you to stop voting randomly and customarily in your first game, but rather to begin with a guided vote") and, though this isn't my first game, I'm "Newbie" class (1 completed game), so I thought it applied to me too. I tried to think of a good alternative to random voting (or arbitrary voting, which I tend towards because all this dice stuff bugs me), and failed.

In the interests of not misunderstanding you, when you say "I guess i'm less sure of it's use and I feel like doing something a little different this time", Foolster, do you mean this game's different than others or just that it's time to try something different? Ta.

[Adele]

ay caramba

Chaotic Diablo, because that always turns out so well...
Why? It's not like we aren't already talking.

[Adele]

Well, the only chance of it throwing up an interesting conversation is if you proceed to get overly defensive. Which would also be kinda cool. Willya do it? go on, be weird about it; accuse it of being a metagame OMGUS vote!

It'd be true in a way, because you've voted for you before. Now you're voting back, and some might say that's not fair...

[Adele]

I'd like to know that before I continue considering votiing for broomhead. However, Fritzler has been really quiet lately which is very unlike him. I'll keep my vote he is acting wierd by not acting at all.

Why are you considering voting for broomhead?
Why did you ask something of your fellow players and not reply to my questions regarding it?

Vote: Tamuz

because (1) you've said hardly anything, and (2) you've expressed willingness to place vote 3 without explaining why you're suspicious, which I've come to believe may be a way for scum to lay a paper-trail:
"See? My vote didn't come outta nowhere! I said ages ago that this was coming!"
And so I think you're the most suspicious guy on the block. Not incredibly scummy, but sufficiently for me to vote.

[Adele]

sorry for not unvoting .

Glad to hear you're enjoying QC! I recommend it to all.

[Adele]

And so Adele I should just tell everyone I'm suspect of every reason I suspect them so they can immediately amend ther behavior and try cutting my suspicion? Is that your strategy. If so I really wish I was scum in this game with you giving me hints on how to act to avoid your suspicion.

You should explain why you're suspicious because you might be wrong, in which case we can argue against it, or you might be right, in which case you may convince us. Withholding in this way is not, to my mind, effective pro-town play.

[Adele]

I voted Pariah based on a quick re-read. In his three posts (excluding the pre-game one) it looks like he's encouraging suspicion broadly without committing to a favorite...as though he'll be ready to join any bandwagon without being the leader (not the first vote) or a follower (already expressed suspicion).

Enough for a vote.

Really? I agree he could post more, but what he has said looks reasonable to me.
First he puts a FOS on Broomhead for broomhead's first post's motivation... might seem a bit much, but people were voting at that point over less.
Then he asked a fair question of Talitha (which she thought worthy of reply); perhaps not a hugely important one, but potentially relevant. In the same post, he expressed frustration with chaotic's behaviour.
Then he puts an FOS on Chaotic, citing the play that led him to do so.

He's been quiet, and I want to hear more from him; I'll join the call to post, and may even vote for him if that's necessary to pressure him to post. But the content that he's provided so far seems innocuous. It certainly doesn't look "too innocuous" if that's what you're implying though; it looks more to me like he might've just not had much to say.

[Adele]

I voted Pariah based on a quick re-read. In his three posts (excluding the pre-game one) it looks like he's encouraging suspicion broadly without committing to a favorite...as though he'll be ready to join any bandwagon without being the leader (not the first vote) or a follower (already expressed suspicion).

Enough for a vote.

Really? I agree he could post more, but what he has said looks reasonable to me.

I didn't say it doesn't look reasonable. I said it looks...well read my quote. And, as I said, it's enough for a vote.

I do find your decision to provide a counter-point on Pariah's behalf interesting, Adele -- especially since you'd like him to post more. You're voting Tamuz on little -- "not incredibly scummy" (your words) but seem to have a problem with me doing the same.

First, I like to consider stuff carefully and look at both sides of an issue. I still don't fully understand why you're voting Pariah, to tell the truth. Is it for not posting enough (seems an overreaction) or for what he posted (I think his posts weren't amazing, but raised valid points)?

And I'm not voting "Tamuz on little" and that would've been clear to anyone if, instead of just quoting three words of mine, you'd quoted the full line:

And so I think you're the most suspicious guy on the block. Not incredibly scummy, but sufficiently for me to vote.

I voted for Tamuz because I thought at the time that his behaviour warranted it. When I said "not incredibly scummy"

in context

, it shoud've been clear that I meant I wsn't claiming certainty of his having a scum role - not that the vote was for nothing.

As to finding my disagreement with your points "interesting", I'll just say: it’s my style. If I think an attack goes too far, I’ll defend someone. I like (a) arguing things point by point, (b) being logic-lead, (c) having questions answered (whether or not I’m the one who posed them) and (d) knowing what people are thinking and why they’re doing what they’re doing. I’ve not played enough games yet to know if that’s good or bad play – the only game I played that’s officially finished I was fooled by my eldest brother Seol, who has a similar style but buckets more experience (and, possibly, skill) than I.

This isn’t the first time I’ve pushed for a more in-depth explanation of an attack-type post, even in this game. There are any number of reasons why you’ve not articulated the reasons you voted Pariah sufficiently for me to “get” them:
1) I’m being dim
2) you’re inarticulate
3) you think it’s self-evident
4) the reasons are shakier than you think
5)you’re scum trying to bandwagon an innocent.
Further discussion should solve any but "5", so obviously I want further discussion.

Also, as you may have figured out from the length of this post, I have

waaay

too much time on my hands!

[Adele]

Unvote

I didn't (and don't) like certain aspects of his play... but I think I get his style now, and he looks reputable.

it is great to be prolfc and all, but there gets to be a point where you are saying "lets talk" in 80 times as many words as needed.

Fair point. I'll try to be less wordy. My exams start in a week so I should be calming down now.

[Adele]

Pardon me for being thick, but who are you addressing?

The one who addressed me, Pariah.

I think Tamuz was referring to this

I don't really see a big difference between the meaning of what meme quoted and what you quoted. You had a small suspicon, and voted on it. Just as I'm doing for you.
MeMe (Quoting Tamaz): "not incredibly scummy"
Tamuz: And so I think you're the most suspicious guy on the block. Not incredibly scummy, but sufficiently for me to vote.

Where MeMe was actually quoting me, Adele. And I disagree. It was not, at the time, a "small suspicion". Perhaps I miscommunicated, but I didn't "vote on little", I thought that Tamuz was probably scum. He wasn't

incredibly

scummy, and I wouldn't have wanted at that time to stake the game or my life on it, but I thought he was probably scum. I've since changed my mind.

MeMe: repitition is not explanation. Pariah's play looks like low-level pro-town play to me; he drew attention to stuff that could have turned out to be something. I don't get it. Maybe I'm dim; others have managed to get it. That's why I asked.
I'm no longer that desperate to have you explain it through; I was originally concerned in case it turned out to be a bandwagon, which it doesn't look like it's gonna do now.

And I classify all "aggressive" post types together. That's IGMEOY's, FOS's, votes, calls for roleclaims, anything like that. A vote, though, is the most aggressive action someone call normally pull on another player in the day (IMHO).

And I asked Tamuz questions before, during and after the vote post. I invited him to change my mind. A big part of the reason I voted for him was because I felt he was ignoring inconvenient questions and suchlike.

[Adele]

I'd like to officially

unvote

Tamuz. I no longer suspect him overmuch.

[Adele]

I would especially like to hear from Adele, who raised the topic initially, but seems to have changed her mind on the issue.

I'm still vaguely curious, but the game has moved on, Tamuz has moved on, and others are tweaking me more.

If you wanna keep pushing Tamuz for an explanation, fine. I don't object, but nor do I feel like supporting you. It's yesterday's news, but harmless.

[Adele]

unvote: Pariah
vote: Talitha

I thought you were happy with your vote.

I'm still pretty happy with my vote -- just in case anyone thought I merely wasn't paying attention.

Since that post, Talitha's spoken once

My home internet is down and I dont know when it will be back.

Hesitant to put a 4th on Pariah at this time, only 'cause I may not be able to check back very soon for reactions.

What was it about this that made you suspicious?

[Adele]

Talitha's on dial-up? She has several games going? She can't guarantee to keep them all up as she could otherwise be expected to? Fair enough, in my view.

Doesn't look scummy to me. However, nor does MeMe, who I was starting to distrust, but who now seems okay-ish.

MeMe: I just disagree with you. Quite a lot, but there you go.

[Adele]

Alexander hasn't said much that I havn't thought. What he added makes sense to me. I was gearing up to suspect her then got the impression it was her "style" but now, I'm starting to think it's her gambit.

Vote: MeMe

; she didn't seem that worried about one vote, I doubt a second will freak her out either.

[Adele]

I was starting to distrust you. Then, I thought "eh, it can be chalked up to her style". Alexander's PBPA put things in a new light that solidified the stuff that gave me pause, but I'd not put my finger on. Now, I distrust you.

I hope this progression makes sense to people - I think it'd be foolish to have the attitude "never back off tentative suspicions".

[Adele]

*raises hand*

; I guess y'all know that.

[Adele]

Upon further re-read (and this has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the raging MeMe debate), I will FOS broomhead and FOS chaotic diablo, because of their interactions on pages 2-3. At the top of page 2, broomhead said something strange, quickly accumulated 2 votes and 1 FOS. Then, comes chaotic diablo, and, with no regard to the ongoing discussion ... votes for himself? It almost seems like c.d. saw a fellow mafia member (who also happens to be an inexperienced player) in trouble, and quickly came in to shift the focus away from him. Then, when people asked c.d. for clarification, broomhead actually responded for him in posts 51/53.

Woah, I disagree with you.

1) Broomhead was not in trouble. When Talitha put on a second vote,

I usually just look for a likely looking

victim

person to put a second vote on.

it doesn't look like it's intended to turn into a bandwagon. I don't think there was any danger, considering the first vote was random, and the FOS didn't look aggressive. Maybe Broomhead was worried at this stage - although he didn't seem worried to me. I certainly don't think Chaotic would've been nervous about this, considering his experience.
2) You don't need to look for a motive for Chaotic to self-vote; he did so in Mini 264, Mini 242, Mini 233, and Mafiascum alphabet soup. The examples I found where he didn't self-vote were those games where he'd already been voted for. It's not so much a habit as an addiction at this point.
3) If I check in, and there's something to say, I say it. That's also been a topic of discussion today , but I don't see anything collusive in Broomhead chiming in with his opinions.

Bearing in mind these three points, I think you have no argument left.

[Adele]

Okay, I've just reread the thread person-by-person. and no-one looks real scummy to me.

sigh

Yeah, that kind of includes MeMe... I feel like my suspicions toward her are on a see-saw...

I'm not going to go over MeMe's reasons for voting and give them a rating out of 10 and see if she achieves a passing grade. Not on Day 1. The main thing I look for is,

does the person voting really believe their own reasons?

And I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to MeMe right now.

Y'see, that's a relevant perspective. It's possible MeMe's sincere... but she's the best one for me out there right now.

[Adele]

I'm relatively new and don't know: is a name-claim situation likely to lead to a role-claim situation?

Also (and I'm guessing here, as I haven't seen the movie), would there be any spare good guys going that vIQleS could've provided as safe claims?

Finally, I'd be kinda surprised if any mass-claim made much of a difference on day one. Isn't that the first thing mods concentrate on avoiding?

[Adele]

I will nameclaim once everyone, or most, concur that a mass nameclaim is a good idea.

Sorry, could you clarify? Earlier, you said

I would like to dangle the following idea in front of you guys

You just seemed to be floating an idea, now you look like you're advocating it. Have you decided that you think it's the best decision or do you still want to debate upsides and downsides?

[Adele]

That's, um... sweet, Fritzler.
I also hope that Broomhead doesn't die.
I hope that no-one dies.

When did we stop being able to assume wishes for continued life for one another?

[Adele]

Because I can change my sig if I want to. Once I set my gender button, I can't ever go back to ambiguity, although (interestingly) it

would

let me switch teams...

[Adele]

Since the game deathwatch.

Does this refer to a stage of our current game that we've now reached? Does it refer to a past game called "deathwatch"?

As I go into my exam period, I'm secure in the knowledge that some aspect of, like

half

recent posts in my games have been beyond my comprehension...

[Adele]

I'm relatively new and don't know: is a name-claim situation likely to lead to a role-claim situation?

Just so you all know, I'm still waiting on an answer...

[Adele]

Okay, then I'm cool either way with the name-claim. I guess, slightly in favour. Yes. VOTE: MASS NAME-CLAIM.

[Adele]

Yeah, it sounds to me like, "it'd be really really good for the town to mass name-claim... please don't"

[Adele]

lol.

Unvote: MeMe

I don't think a mass name-claim would benefit scum and she could've avoided coming down on either side of the fence since we're still in the "debate" phase. Just so everyone knows, I still IGMEOY MeMe.

[Adele]

Are we allowed to defy the Mod?

If so, w00t, and I'm all for it! Claims seem fair game to me.

[Adele]

Don't pull out, Alexander - vIQleS just said no

mass

claimings, day

one

Query - if it is mass claims that are banned, how is that to be defined? I'm not looking to undermine your decision, mod, but if people are pushed to claim, may they? What if this happens several times? May one or two people choose to spontaneously and individually claim? Thanks.

[Adele]

So please, please stay in the game.

@Alexander: I second that. I've been enjoying your style and I think if you'll just hold out a little while you'll get the benefit of all that research.

@Everyone: If we were to pressure someone to claim, who would we do first? Someone who supported a mass claim or someone against it?

[Adele]

...okay. Maybe it's just that Alexander's post style suits me well, but he's not a player I want to lose from this game, so if this makes him more likely to stay in...

Vote: NoLynch

[Adele]

I need a replacement for Alexander in Bugsy Malone...

we lost him

[Adele]

That's

seven votes

for no lynch, isn't it? So we're into

twilight

[Adele]

See? No reason for anyone but scum to quit. So, if you're not scum, you might as well stay in.

You demonstrated why scum might want to quit, not why townies wouldn't.

[Adele]

I guess we'd better get back down to deciding if we want a mass name-claim; ironically, this question wasn't settled yesterday (was it? well, not that I noticed). I think majority rules, and if that's in favour of the name-claim, then protesters may be pressured, but let's not do this unilaterally.

[Adele]

I admit I'm generaly against mass claiming, but since we gave up a lynch on day 1, we had beter stick with the plan and do it now, otherwise day 1 was just a waste. I'm surrised it's even question.

Just want to make it fair on those who've not had their say yet.
Vote: Claim

[Adele]

I reckon we should go for it - lack of balance be darned! Darned, I say, like a pair of old socks!

But I do believe that pro-town players might be against mass name-claims. They might just feel like it sucks the fun out, y'know? So I'm not FOS-ing based on that.

[Adele]

I rented the Bugsy DVD last week and promptly lost it

[Adele]

By my reckoning, people who've said today that they're pro-nameclaim:
Adele
Pariah
Fritzler
Tamuz
Foolster41
broomhead

That's 6. MeMe seems up for it too, based on yesterday's posts (esp. the No-Lynch advocacy)

Guess I might as well go first (deep breath)...

I am Fat Sam

.

[Adele]

Sorry, MeMe, I was winding up sor the day and didn't see the simultaneous post. Shame, because we could have had a nice chat. Oh well.

I grew up in a large, argumentative household, but Christmas morning always passed without incident, because we had a system for order of opening presents - the last person to open one picked the next gift to be opened, which could not be for or from them.

The claimee should pick IMO broom: As in Adele chooses who should RC next.

Heh. Great minds.

I'll happily make the call, but (so's you know) this is a

random

choice. Of

all

9 other players, though.

Foolster41, you win! Please name-claim.

[Adele]

I think if no-one else claims nameless, that casts Foolster in an unfortunate light. If some people do claim nameless, maybe they should be tarred by the same brush; somewhere to go if the name-claim doesn't throw up "guilties"; a better-than-random lynch. Obviously there's a difference between 3 people claiming down-and-out and 6 people claiming down-and-out; basically I think it's unlikely that there'll be only one person given that role in the game (since they are a group in the movie?), and I think that should be a consideration as we go from here.

[quote="Maz Medias, quoting www.mtishows.com,]a tiny Down and Out called Babyface[/quote]huh. Can anyone who's seen, or is about to see, the movie indicate whether the down-and-outs are named in the movie? Bear in mind that I (FAT SAM, y'know) may watch the movie, so lying wouldn't necessarily be a wise move .

Shall we carry on with the mass name-claim, but

ask anyone who lacks a name (and maybe ask for named vanillas) to come forward asap, regardless

? Foolster, who's your pick for the nest nameclaim?

Broomhead, Maz, play nicely. Don't make me give you a time-out
j/k. Neither of you have said anything offensive; I'm sensing frustration, but no malice. Please don't escalate it now.

[Adele]

IIRC, Babyface is the only one named because he makes the good shot. Otherwise they're you're run-of-the-mill army with little individualism, which makes them perfect as vanilla.

Everything I've said to Broomhead has had a point. Ironically enough. I am comfortable with my vote even more now, though, seeing how easily he's provoked.

1) I'm gonna need someone to tell me what IIRC stands for; it's not in "common abbreviations" in the wiki

2) When you talk about broomhead being easily provoked, Maz, I kinda think "glass houses". You've seemed the more easily provoked in this outta the two of you.

If anyone needs to know, I'm Flatfoot, who ever that is...

1) You should have

some

basic idea from your PM

2) We aren't nameclaiming at will here. But, I guess, it makes sense for either you or Foolster to pick who goes next; say, whoever next check in (so probably Stark).

[Adele]

Oh, I could take you, little boy! I could take you

down

! Bring it!

Uh... I mean, I am calmly and quietly judging your lack of control over your violent impulses (in a smug way calculated to enrage you further... )

[Adele]

Maz, broomhead: calm down! For serious.

btw, broom,

Foolster41

claimed down-and-out, Maz hasn't name-claimed yet.

[Adele]

Oh, I see, and you are

a

"flatfoot"? Gotcha. I don't know how universally understood that slang is: Flatfoot is slang for cop. We have our first inadvertant role-claim!

In one of my other games, someone (seemingly accidentally) claimed "cop". Then died. And the mod told us he was the doc.
True story.
How weird is that? Anyway...

[Adele]

Claimstate

Adele claimed Fat Sam, not yet counterclaimed
Foolster41 claimed down-and-out, no individual name, no similar claims yet
Stark claimed Captain Smolsky ("flatfoot"=cop?), not yet counterclaimed

by the way,

Speaking of obscure, what the hell is "Frank", and what's up with the "I made it up" part? Ayelin, for example, was "Tallulah", she had an actual name, I'm sure all of us have actual names. Didn't you receive an ACTUAL NAME when you got your role?

huh. Wonder why people who

didn't

get "an ACTUAL NAME" didn't mention it at

that

point in time...

okay, so who should claim next (if at all)? Foolster (and Maz) want broomhead to claim, while Stark wants Fritzler to. Truth be told, broomhead and Fritzler are much the same for me; I'll swing whichever way.

[Adele]

Does no one agree with me that we should probably stop claiming for the day?

umm... I favour continued claiming, I think, right through 'til we're all done. If we can get someone scummier looking than Foolster, that'd be good, and this

is

supposed to be a

mass

claim. I never signed up to go to night being one of two or three name-claimers, and I think ending the claiming now would be unfair, to be honest.

[Adele]

claim 1-2 manana with chaos 3

What does this bit mean?

[Adele]

Anyway, we're not claiming

roles

- it's been suggested that there are no names in the movie that reek of the doc role in the way that there are clear cops.

[Adele]

I (and others) signed up for a mass nameclaim that may break the game for the town. MeMe thinks we should lynch Foolster now? I think that's best for the scum. Foolster is not a perfect lynch - he's pretty good, but there's every chance we can do a lot better. My claim, on the other hand, was an absolute

gift

to the scum if taken in isolation. Right now they have more useful info than we do. Now is

not

the time to stop. The plan has not yet served its purpose; as things stand, I honestly think it has harmed the town.

Look, if I die and the town wins, I call that a win for me. This is about the bigger picture, and I think changing the plan now is a big, big mistake.

I think we're due for our next claim.

[Adele]

If we're mass claiming, I don't see why every post by those who've yet to name-claim doesn't have a claim. Do I want broomhead to claim? Yes; I want

everyone

to claim, and we can sort out counter-claims and accusations after.

So if you haven't claimed, and your next post doesn't include a claim, could it please include an explanation? Ta.

[Adele]

I am Bugsy, you can tell by no counterclaim

In two hours, there's not been a counterclaim. That's not to say there won't be one. We've also not given Foolster a chance to answer your accusations.

That's not the point. We aren't claiming to find one

probable

scum. Who first suggested that that was preferable to finding all the scum? Oh, it was MeMe.

If EVERYONE else thinks we need to continue claiming, I'll go along with it -- but Adele's preference that everyone should claim in their next post or explain why they're not is extremely off.

Why's that? I mean, it's not the most appalling request. You did it (chose the second option). Wish I'd picked you to claim next. Oh well, too late now.

FOS: MeMe

I think the turn-based claiming's dumb. It gives people too many chances to try to derail the mass claim, as MeMe's been doing. Or, at least, people should claim and name the next claimant

immediately

(same post), so we can get through this without people having the chance to try to undermine the tactic again.

Also, Broomhead

so is the main consensus that i should claim?

I for one favour you claiming now, if only to get this going again.

[Adele]

Yes, reasonably likely. Not certain, but better than nothing.

[Adele]

Because I think you're acting very scummy. I can't wait to hear your claim; I think it might be a great deal shakier than Foolster's.

[Adele]

Scum now know not to claim a non-name role and not to claim cop or mason. So, even if I were scum, I'd not screw up, right? The scum have plenty of information on how NOT to claim at this point.

First off, since we're claiming

names, not roles

, the stuff about "don't claim cop or mason if you're scum" is irrelevant. And why would scum be bigger fools than usual to claim those in this game anyway?

I think it very unlikely that they're going to mess up further since we didn't stop and wait after each claim -- something I requested BEFORE you jumped in and offered your claim.

Here's the thing. We

did

do it at first. But why was that? Why do you think that analysing each role at the time would be pro-town? Especially since you also claim that the discussion of Foolster's role has given scum useful "what not to claim" info. Why does slowing down the claims make it harder on the scum?

Do you agree that it's unlikely that scum are going to say anything any "shakier" than Foolster already has? If you do agree -- then please tell me how continuing the mass claim benefits town more than mafia (and saying "we're not following yesterday's plan isn't an explanation). If you don't agree -- well, you're insane.

I don't agree, and I'm not insane (see above). And, by the way, saying that if I disagree with then I'm wrong and foolish is not an argument for why I should agree with you. It's merely a pre-emptive insult.

But even if I did agree, the reason we should continue claiming is because claiming throws up more pro-town info (in this case, in this game) than anti-town. Because it was in danger of breaking the game Day 1, but a Day 2 mass name-claim wasn't banned by the mod (so clearly not quite as good), so waiting until Day 3 or later to actually

do it

would benefit scum.

[Adele]

I don't have the authority to force a mass claim, and won't pretend that I do.

Why are you scared of a mass name-claim when it is so manifestly pro-town a manouvre

, though?

The default behaviour, the last agreed one, is a

mass

claim. The burden of proof or a convincing argument is (to my mind) on you, if you wish to change this. It's your job to try to change minds.

Again, why do you want to? Oh yeah, so the scum won't benefit from a mass name-claim. Even though it's been established that the town would benefit from one, not the scum.

vote: MeMe

again

[Adele]

The preview button is your friend.

Fixed:

I have no idea why I would be told that he's a vig when he's not. Though it's still possible that Tamuz is lying (I think pretty likely in fact.). Who hasn't spoken up yet since the claim?

If it is very likely that I'm lying about being Bugsy. Then WHY would you beleve that I'd be telling the truth about Bugsy not being a vigilante.

I think you misunderstand me.Obviously I didn't both belive your telling the truth about being bugsy and think you're lying about being a vig. That would be plain stupid. You saying you

wern't

claiming to be a vig made me think you were lying completely. And having a dead mason didn't really help to make me believe you either.

But now I think everyone left have said they're not the real bugsy, maybe you're not lying and I got some bad info.

Tamuz: Yes, I can vouch for broomhead. His loyalty is unquestionable; it has been explicitely assured to me.
I guess this is why he doesn't believe that there are other masons out there - he knows of three including himself (cookie for the person who guesses the third ); how many are likely?

I would not be surprised if some people voted MeMe now to put pressure on her to claim.

[Adele]

tam: why do you want votes for MeMe isn't that suggesting too much, "oh la, de da, say guys, why don't you vote for MeMe"

It wasn't Tam, it was me, Adele. And no, I don't think it's suggesting too much. I have no authority, but I have every right to imagine, predict, or suggest.

She's against the mass nameclaim now. You chose her to claim next - which I believe to have been within your rights. But she won't go ahead without another public vote for the mass name-claim.

I don't trust her. You don't trust her. I think she should claim. I think if she tries to wriggle out of claiming we should put pressure on her. That's just what I think.

[Adele]

1) It's been discussed that there's no obvious name=x therefore role=doc.
2) The point of a mass nameclaim is to force some people (ie the scum) out. It's not something people should be allowed to opt out of...

in my opinion

. If you disagree, you are under no obligation to vote.
3) No-one cares about the "Frank" deal anymore you're the only one who keeps mentioning it

[Adele]

Convenient, MeMe. So, what, you're in favour of everyone else in the universe claiming... except you?

Yes, I want Maz to claim. But it's

your

turn.

[Adele]

Great. So you reckon we have a lynch-or-lose situation and therefore should play with minimal info rather than try to get as much as possible? If Foolster isn't scum, your play equals a scum win. Why on earth, then, are you against more careful reasoning, and possibly a better lynch?

Again, why are you scared? According to your account, there are no safe claims, so scum are done for in a mass claim, no?

[Adele]

Currently, you. If Maz doesn't get around to unvoting in his next post or two, that may change. However, it could have just slipped his mind.

I am scared of no mass claim because I think the scum have got more useful info from what's been said so far, and the town will get more useful info if

everyone

claims. That's why we decided to do it in the first place, remember? That's why you voted for no lynch on day one. And now you think we're in a lynch-or-lose situation; that's also a factor.

As to your later point: fair point. However, the reason we are claiming (heck, the reason we're still

playing

) is that we don't know who the scum are. For example, we don't know that you aren't scum (and your arguments make the same amount of sense as coming from scum). Hence the system: claimer chooses next claimer. They can choose randomly, or someone they don't trust. Can you suggest a better order (besides "fine, but not me, because I am innocent")

That's why I claimed first: get things going, set an example.

[Adele]

I agree with MeMe claiming and picking Maz - if Maz is still her fave. You have the power, MeMe!

broomhead, I'm female. And I'd be okay with dying if that would mean the town won. I thought you knew both those things about me.

[Adele]

Also -- I just want to put this out there for you to think over, though I don't really expect you to answer it in the thread -- would you be more open to my ideas if you hadn't yet claimed?

My eldest brother is Seol, who I'm given to understand is an excellent player; one of the best on this forum. He and I were chatting about general stuff, and I mentioned that in one of my games, three claims into a mass name-claim, someone was suggesting that we stop. "Huh? But a mass claim is one where

everyone

claims". I gave him the link. He read it, pronounced it ridiculous (sorry to be harsh; he is a pretty judgemental guy).

Then

I told him that I was one of those that had claimed so far. "That's irrelevant" he replied.

So to answer your question: no. This isn't about me and it never was. This is about what play favours town and what play favours town. I've honestly thought it through and cannot see the downside to continuing the claim, while I can see the upside.

Also: you say this is frustrating because you know I'm a townie (or strongly believe it). Remember that I do not know the same about you.

[Adele]

He's read the game through. And it didn't make a world of difference. This isn't about when what was suggested. He doesn't care about that stuff. To him, all that matters is what's logically the best way to go from any given point.

[Adele]

I didn't mean to break etiquette. My apologies. That wasn't an argument, though; it was an answer to your question "do you think you've given the idea of ceasing the claims fair consideration?" That's the point. I not only gave it in-depth consideration, I also sought objective counsel.

I'll happily ask Seol what he thinks of you; I already know you're an experienced and respected player. The thing is, for all I know, you are experienced and respected scum.
My status is more assured than yours.

Do you still consider me a suspect? I didn't realise that.

[Adele]

Limited mason appears to mean you are masoned with someone only once you've found them. Every night, they investigate someone but only learn if they are their target person or not. If they are, a mason group of two is then established.

Foolster claimed he'd mason with Bugsy once he found him, and that Bugsy's a vig
Tamuz replied that he was Bugsy, would mason with Blousy once he found her, and is not a vig
That's weird, said Foolster.

broomhead and I are in a separate mason group with each other and one other person (who is not Foolster, Tamuz or Talitha).

I've come the opinion that analysis should come after the claims are complete, so as to avoid giving scum any more "what not to claim" info than necessary.
MeMe strongly disagrees, and believes that the best play is to halt it now, lynch Foolster, and re-evaluate tomorrow.

I hope everyone agrees that that is a fair summary of what's happened recently?

[Adele]

Simple. There are two primary options on where to go from here ("Tamuz=scum" appears to be a minority opinion).

1) we lynch Foolster. That'll happen when there are six votes on him.
2) majority state they wish to complete (or at least continue) the mass claim. MeMe, next in line, will claim when six people have voted for that. I hope I'm not misrepresenting you, MeMe, but you've said that you'll follow majority rule and I think the rest follows.

The issue of whether (if we do continue claiming) claims should be analysed at the time or not is still up in the air. I'm against.

So. vote "Foolster" if you prefer the first, vote "name-claim continuation" if you favour the second, and we'll see which wins.

[Adele]

These are the people I think have said they're in favour of further nameclaims: Adele, broomhead, Fritzler, Maz Medias (4)

Stated as against: MeMe, and I think Tamuz (he's still voting Foolster) (2)

Not quite clear:
Stark was pro last time we heard, but that was a while ago
Pariah's undecided
Chaotic_Diablo hasn't explicitly stated a preference
Foolster: I'm gonna go out on a limb and say we can presume he favours the claiming over his lynching. So much so, Ithink it's fair to add him to the list of pro-claims:
Pro-claim: Adele, broomhead, Fritzler, Foolster, Maz Medias (5)

Which is not a majority, but is enough for at least a stalemate. If none of us vote for Foolster he won't hang. So what would happen in such a situation? I hope we don't have to find out, as I hope and expect that Stark, Pariah, or Diablo will be pro-claim. Therefore, MeMe, I think it's likely that you'll have to claim soon.

And now for something completely different...

Adele Broom & mysterious man #3 I would like at least two of you to give me a statement with the utmost conviction that you KNOW via the mod that your masonic partners are INNOCENTS.

I have checked with the mod, who has guaranteed it absolutely. Broomhead and the Mystery Man are pro-town. I don't know if broomhead confirmed it with the mod, but I do know that Mr. Mysterious did. However, I've no inclination to make him come out before he has to; I'd rather minimise pro-town claims until we agree to universal claims. Of course, if we get one more person pro-claim then it'll be resolved very soon.

[Adele]

Maz - sometimes people are told in their PM that they're in a mason group with so-and-so, only to find out later that so-and-so is actually scum.

My gang wasn't originally labeled a "mason group", but, well, as my gang. But I asked for the confirmation once I realised the implications so I could be 100% sure that my co-masons are good.

[Adele]

yay!

If we assume that Foolster is pro (which I really, really think we can) then Pariah makes six!

[Adele]

Claimstate

Adele claimed Fat Sam
Foolster41 claimed down-and-out, no individual name
Stark claimed Captain Smolsky
Broomhead claimed Snake-eyes
MeMe claimed Lena Marelli
Maz Medias claimed Leroy Smith

Unclaimed (in alphabetical order): Chaotic_Diablo, Fritzler, Pariah, Tamuz

[Adele]

My bad. Sorry.

Corrected Claimstate

Adele claimed Fat Sam
Foolster41 claimed down-and-out, no individual name
Tamuz claimed Bugsy Malone
Stark claimed Captain Smolsky
Broomhead claimed Snake-eyes
MeMe claimed Lena Marelli
Maz Medias claimed Leroy Smith

Unclaimed (in alphabetical order): Chaotic_Diablo, Fritzler, Pariah

[Adele]

@broomhead: I said to the mod "do you, like, promise my mason buddies are good guys" and he did. The question is, did the mod ever promise you that I and you-know-who are pro-town?

[Adele]

rofl

[Adele]

Updated Claimstate

Adele claimed Fat Sam
Foolster41 claimed down-and-out, no individual name
Tamuz claimed Bugsy Malone
Stark claimed Captain Smolsky
Broomhead claimed Snake-eyes
MeMe claimed Lena Marelli
Maz Medias claimed Leroy Smith
Chaotic Diablo claimed O'Dreary
Pariah claimed Fizzy

Unclaimed : Fritzler

[Adele]

Looking at Fritzler's post history, he did a lot between 7pm and 9.30pm, then fell silent. I'm guessing he's offline.

[Adele]

Until I watch the movie, I can't form a solid opinion on most of the claims. I wish Alexander were still here. *sigh*

Anyone see anything weird?

Who are Lena Marelli, Leroy Smith, O'Dreary, and Fizzy anyway?

[Adele]

It

was

pretty annoying... but I can confirm the guy.

Truth be told, broomhead and Fritzler are much the same for me

They're both in my mason group. Also, they've both drawn attention to themselves... although I guess I have too. Three of a kind, we are!

The stuff about thinking we were scum is true. We originally were told that we were a gang, and I don't think any of us had seen the movie... we jumped to conclusions but managed to sort it all out and get our own (and one anothers') pro-townieness confirmed.

[Adele]

I'll

unvote

for now. I don't trust MeMe, but I don't think it's quite enough.

I'm willing to imagine genuine confusion over Foolster's role; I say we don't lynch him tonight, but if Tamuz condemns him again tomorrow,

then

we lynch him. Of course, if he

does

then turn out to be a down-and-out (I don't know how, since no-one's counterclaimed Bugsy, but bear with me) then we can lynch Tamuz. Agreed?

Stark, any useful info from last two nights?
btw, is Captain S portrayed as competent in the movie? Could this be a lepton?
I'd imagine there's a doc among us. Presumably Stark's the best pick for their night-choice tonight.

Personally, the people

I

most suspect (in order) are Foolster, MeMe, Maz and Chaotic_Diablo. But obviously, that's subject to change .

[Adele]

[my investigations yield] Nothing particularly usefull. Fritz investigation came up saying that he enjoyed cracking his knuckles, and talitha investigation came up as a rising young star with a talent for singing.

Stark, it sounds as though you get some character flavour from your investigations rather than a pro-town/anti-town statement? Not that that matters; if the flavour mismatches the claimed character, that should indicate scum anyway.
btw, I think this near-confirms him. IIRC, he made references to "Fritzler's knuckles" before anyone else, indicating some inside knowledge.

It is

I

who questioned whether or not the game would be unbalanced with a mass claim on day one (and check vIQles post -- he states it wasn't scum who did so), though I was obviously unaware that 1) my concern was valid and 2) he'd stop the claims. It is because of his responses to my "what the heck were you THINKING" string of PMs today that I considered the possibility of there being a four-person scum group. I pointed out that mafia is, in a nutshell, a game of "informed minority vs. uninformed majority" and that, if the "good" name roles

are

truly good (as he said) then I've got to believe that Adele's being truthful. There are three informed majorities right there. By the same token, I have to believe that Pariah's being truthful. There's two more informed majorities right THERE (if Blousey had lived). That's incredibly unbalanced. vIQles basically told me that the game's more balanced than it seems.

Unverifiable references to private conversations with the mod? Pardon me if I don't suddenly consider you a confirmed innocent...

As to tonight?

kill maz, i agree. just because i do not like him

Not the ideal motive, I must say; but I do think he was strangely aggressive toward you, and oddly sycophantic toward me.

Like I said before, my three top scum picks are Foolster, MeMe and Maz... I reserve the right to join any bandwagon, but particularly on those three.

[Adele]

Is it possible that both Tamuz and Foolster might be lying?

My mind is blown
That is an excellent point. Sends my plan out the window, I think.

vote: Foolster

[Adele]

I doubt you're still up...

@Tamuz, I reckon Stark's claim and Fritzler's claim support each other. Stark knew there was some "knuckles"-type quality to Fritz earlier in the game; later, Fritzler claimed "Knuckles". Unless you can suggest a role in the movie that fits the clue and is anti-town, I think Fritzler's verified. And, by extension, so am I and Broomhead. The only alternative I can think of is that Stark is scum with us, which I think you'll agree is extremely unlikely.
And the thing about you verifying Foolster is, say you both survive and you say he's innocent. Can we trust that? Not necessarily; that evidence makes sense in light of you both being innocent

or

both being scum.

@Maz, stop it!

11 Remember, it’s a game and it’s supposed to be fun. Be nice to your fellow players and your mod. I have zero tolerance for abusive posts.

You are way over the line. If you get angry, step away from the computer 'til you can trust yourself not break the rules both of our mod and of common courtesy.

@Fritzler,

Adele, does maz fall under lynch all jerks or whatever the hell you said?

still not talking to you.
(*sigh*... get over it, Adele)
Yes, he does. But this isn't day one, the really bad stuff all took place over a single night, and I'd be willing to think he's just a hothead, but we have to play careful today. I don't trust him, but I think now is exactly the time to NOT escalate things out of anger... we've seen the danger in that.

[Adele]

You were mean . I got over it, though .

..."worst ever"?

[Adele]

eh. You just said I was a crappy co-mason. No big.

...it

was

a big for a couple hours there, and then there was the seething resentment. But your male cluelessness made me laugh and I'm totally over it now.

[Adele]

Stark, you don't think it's worthwhile to comment on recent discussions, for example the one in which your innocence is tied to Fritzler's? I'd like to hear your opinion on this matter.

[Adele]

Totally Unofficial, Quite Possibly Inaccurate, Vote Count!!!

Foolster: 3 (Adele, Chaotic_Diablo, MeMe)
Fritzler: 1 (Stark)
Maz Medias: 3 (Broomhead, Fritzler, Tamuz)

6 to lynch.

I am now of the opinion that lynching Maz today would be foolish:

Once more, Leroy Smith is an aspiring heavyweight boxer who puts himself at risk to protect Bugsy's life.

I'd imagine there's a doc among us. Presumably Stark's the best pick for their night-choice tonight.

Do you guys want a claim out of me or do you even care? Adele's plan won't work so well sans moi...

[Adele]

Well, broomhead, Fritzler and Tamuz clearly didn't...

[Adele]

Yep, by my count. One more vote and Foolster=dead.

[Adele]

HAMMAH =

twilight

[Adele]

Maz, I thought you were gonna protect Stark. But then I also thought you were gonna die.

vote: Maz

I'd like to hear more from MeMe. I can't help thinking that her claim (even if true) is not clear-cut protown. Any chance of flavour? I guess it's moot, since I expect Maz will be the pick of the day.

[Adele]

Hmm.
If that's a lie he planned it all out ahead of time; it fits early posts.

Except that (from the Maz-is-townie perspective) C_D's suggestions don't make much sense in the face of your de facto doc claim. You essentially said that you were the doc and that you would protect Stark.
If you were a townie then the scum would know it and would be inclined to believe you. In this case, it makes sooo much more sense to attack you, Maz, or Fritz or broom or I.

So I don't believe you.

[Adele]

Masons aren't really a good kill

LAL

[Adele]

HAMMAH

[Adele]

I think you are: Five to murder, votes from Fritz, Adele, Pariah, MeMe and Tamuz.

Any last words? Thoughts, accusations, confessions?

[Adele]

Nope, not me. Tamuz, if anyone.

[Adele]

Um... huh?

Was the claim that you'd kill (or whatever) the lynching voter true? I can't wait for the lynch scene.

Was the role claim true? Was the flavour true? Is he scum?

Here's one: you said you'd beat 'em up. Did the mod say that, or that you'd kill 'em? Because if it's the former, maybe you just knock them out so they lose their night abilities or something...

[Adele]

should we still be talking or no?

The time between the lynching vote and the lynch scene is known as "twilight". It's usually acceptable to post in twilight (it is acceptable in this game, don't worry).
Therefore, we can post in-thread until the mod declares it night-time, but can't do night-time only activities.
For example, you, Fritz and I can't PM one another yet (nor can scum), or do other night-time activities (those with night-choices would probably prefer to use them after the lynch scene anyway; more info).

[Adele]

At

this

point, I don't consider anyone outside of the mason group cleared. I'm more trusting of Pariah, but then (sorry mate) I expect he'll die tonight. It's just not smart for scum to leave a doctor lying around potentially screwing up their kills.

What we do know is that there are one or two scum left.

Of course, Fritzler, broomhead and I will be discussing suspicions and tactics tonight, so maybe it's wisest not to talk too much about who we suspect and why, what we'll do tomorrow, all that jazz. I definately think

I'll

be keeping my head down as much as possible for the rest of tonight.

[Adele]

I made them PM the mod

lol. I requested innocence confirmation before the game even started!

I'm still slightly wary of the the three man mason group, considering that is...1/4 of the town. I'm really afraid of getting burned by a mason traitor.

Well, we can't prove it, but I really am 95%+ sure that they're innocent. Of course it's possible they aren't, but that would be the most Bastard Moddery ever; totally over the line, for various reasons.

[Adele]

Yeah, I said to him that it'd been drawn to my attention that co-masonry doesn't necessarily imply innocence; it would've been easy for him to say: "well, not

necessarily

... but you've always trusted them" or something like that. He did not.

[Adele]

Morning, all!

Pariah, who did you protect last night?
MeMe, I'd be grateful to hear your role-powers and related flavour.
Chaotic, I'd also be grateful to hear your role-powers and related flavour.
Pariah, any flavour on why Fizzy's doc?

Fritzler, it looks to me like colour implies role? vanilla = grey, scum = red, powergood = blue?

vote: MeMe

[Adele]

Four to lynch, by the way.

[Adele]

I was just thinking. 2 'bad' groups, cops and scum. Does that fit with Bugsy Malone theme, the cops are out to catch the kids?

If not, then pro-townness

Perhaps the theme, but not the info we have so far; Stark provided info that confirmed Fritzler, and by extension the mason group, so unless you're suggesting a total of 6 scum, I think cops are good here.

[Adele]

Why the MeMe votes?

Because we think she's evil!

I want to hear her claim before we lynch her or anything, but I don't think it's any great secret that broomhead and I suspected her quite a bit a while back - I still think her trying to end the mass name-claim (and successful stalling of it for, what, a week?) was deeply scummy.

[Adele]

Sorry, I hadn't seen this

I had this thought yesterday: Considering the weird flavor justification I had for my role, there could possibly be a cult, and that could explain the mason group.

Three reasons why we're masons, not cult members:
1) There's no movie justification for a cult
2) no time to recruit up to three members when we came out on day 2
3) since no "cult recruits" have died, we'd have four members and be a majority by now

...or I could be really paranoid.

I don't entirely trust you, just so you know. Maybe "paranoia" is a good cover for saying scummy stuff. But then, maybe

I'm

being paranoid... and so it regresses...

[Adele]

whew! There's a lot going on here!

@Chaotic: you got Stark's investigation from the night he

died

? I wasn't expecting that, but it's a bonus, and it looks good for you. We were totally expecting a back-up cop claim from you.

Not having a result yet for MeMe is weird... I'd've thought vIQleS would've sent it to you before daybreak...

[Adele]

You get the gist.

I think we do, and I think you

are

Lena Marelli (that's why I didn't unvote while waiting for Chaotic's info, btw), and I think some of your flavour is truthful; but I think your alignment is anti-town.

The

only

thing Lena did in the movie (that I could see) was crush a dream: Blousey's, to be precise. She was not nice. "Obnoxious" in one review on IMDB.

So, I expect that Chaotic will get flavour confirming you as Lena, and I will not consider that confirmation of pro-town allegiance in the least. Or, Chaotic will contradict you (I doubt this), and you'll be a

superb

lynch. Either way, I think you should die now. And I expect Fritzler & Broomhead will agree with me. We just need Tamuz or Chaotic or Pariah to join in.

How is it balanced? I actually don't know. Maybe if you stamped on Talitha after she masoned with Bugsy, they'd both die. Maybe you're an sk, unnightkillable when you stay in - and you've decided to do that so far; let town and the scum groups wear each other down while you bide your time? I don't have the setup to hand, but suggesting the only

possible

balanced setup to the game involves a traitor in the primary mason group - after we've stated that if there were, that would be bastard moddery to the nth - am I the only person that seems scummy to?

[Adele]

First off, am I right in saying that your argument is that "the only way this game is balanced is if Adele, Broomhead or Fritzler is scum"?

Now. Tell me how the game can POSSIBLY be balanced with my role AND Pariah's role AND a cop who gets role name hints (much stronger than alignment, in my opinion, as a simple false claim could trip up scum) AND a three-person mason group AND a possible two-person group AND the mod flat-out telling us all that good names = good roles.

Putting your role aside for one moment - because I believe it to be anti-town - let's take a look at your claims here.

You claim that role name hints are better than alignment info. I disagree; alignment cops learn alignment, where rolename cops only learn one aspect of character. An example of how this link might be weak is the role of Lena Marelli. If someone fake-claimed, however, they'd likely be anti-town and appear so to alignment investigations anyway, so I don't see how name-

hint

cops are so special.

You claim the mod has lied.

But

you are very specific about where the mod has lied. If (hypothetically) the mod is dishonest, is it not possible he has deliberately mislead us about the name-alignment relationship?

Assumptions, accusations of guilt based on balance, accusations of a lying mod, and info you claim to have gotten directly from him. I don't know how - or even if - the setup's balanced. But I wanted to hear an argument for why I should trust you, and got the opposite.

I'm sorry, MeMe. I think Lena's a bad person.

[Adele]

By the way, posts 705 and 706 were simultaneous. I think that MeMe's attitude to me and my attitude to MeMe are both pretty clear. If she has any more questions for me (or if anyone does), of course, I'll happily answer them. But I doubt either one of us wants to just argue it out between ourselves ad nauseum.

What do we think about Chaotic being scum? I think his claim could be bull, I mean how hard is it to pony up flavour for a claimed role?

Good question. The only thing is, he tied himself up to be some kind of cop when he claimed O'Dreary. Is it similarly easy to provide fake investigation results, especially since he'd be accusing people of lying (which would cause him major trouble the next day) or supporting their claim (narrowing the range of potential scum).

But, to be honest, the only people I

trust

now are Fritzler and broomhead (and I do trust them completely).

[Adele]

The possibility that vIQles could have lied might make some mad...but that doesn't mean that it's impossible for vIQles to have

done

it.

Anything's possible, but if he did lie to us, that's something to talk about after game's end. I think the possibilty's so remote it would only harm the game to treat it as a real possibility (or, as you seem to be saying, probability) while it's still in play.

(I mean, if you say we should trust what you tell us he told you it only makes sense that you must also advocate belief in what he says publicly...yet you DON'T)

I say "trust him". You say "we can't", but are awfully (and conveniently) specific about where he cannot be trusted. That's all I was saying.

That you refuse to consider it out of hand and continue to push me despite pending cop result and vIQles own in-thread words about my alignment ... makes you the most likely of the masons to be the scum.

1) I considered it carefully, at the appropriate time (ie. the start of the game). If I hadn't come to a decision one way or the other by now, I'd be pretty lax.
2) I've said before, I believe the cop result will peg you as Lena, I believe you are Lena, and I believe Lena is anti-town, rendering Chaotic's result irrelevant to me.
3) You're twisting the "mod confirmed" pretty far... the mod didn't specifically clear you in-thread... you claim to have asked him about the day 1 mass nameclaim, and claim that his statement that

Last comment: The complaints that I mentioned were not from the scum but from players who could not find info on their characters and certain other clues that I provided them.

Therefore clears you by extension.

Some alternative explanations:
1) That vIQleS meant the complaints didn't come from "the scum" as a unit, but an individual
2) That vIQleS meant that complaints weren't about balance (so not relevant to that aspect) but about characters
3) Another living player than you might have asked vIQleS but decided not to counter-claim (because it wouldn't be a full-out contradiction, since vIQleS' post implies multiple questioners, or for some other reason; like they were ordered not to by vIQleS)
4) The questions that got vIQleS thinking about it were from someone who was out of the game by the time you made that claim: Aelyn, Alexander or (I believe) Talitha

Looks like I'm staying up all night tonight (it's nearly 6am), so if you want to discuss this further, then okay.

[Adele]

sorry, hadn't seen this when I posted before

I received Meme's information. It says that she is small but has a powerful voice. She tends to sulk when she isn't at the center of attention.

But, like I say, I expected it.

[Adele]

If I were scum, I certainly wouldn't want her [Adele] dead because that would mean that my chief executioner would be exposed as town and that ain't good for me.

WIFOM

[Adele]

I'm of the opinion that scum want to night-kill masons. Further, if I'm your prime attacker, there is an upside to me being out of the game. With my suggestion that Pariah protect a mason at random, attempting to night-kill any mason is much like another. So yeah, I think if you are scum, I'd be a sensible night-kill choice.

I'm not entirely sure why saying "vIQleS wouldn't lie" is a WIFOM. Again, can I stress that the mason group has more information on this topic than you do.

MeMe, it sound to me like - and correct me if I'm wrong - you are suggesting that the only sensible possibilities are that you are scum or I am. Is that correct?
Do you think that from an objective third-party perspective, it comes down to the two of us?

[Adele]

I do not think it comes down "either MeMe or Adele is scum."

My mistake, sorry.

However, in my last "options" post, I realized that mafia cop is a possibility -- a thought that has been unaddressed. Please give me the courtesy of publicly saying whether or not you consider it a possibility and if not, why not.

The Mafia Cop... does not know who is in the Mafia, but can investigate once each night, like a normal Cop, to help the Mafia in lynching. The original Mafia Cop was in the Mafia itself, but this role was simply a more powerful Mafia member, rather than a separate role.

Yes, I think that's a possibility. I also consider a four-man scum group a possibility (which, as I understand it, would usually be broken in favour of scum, so balanced opposite a strong town, though "delicately balanced", as the mod described this game)

Your earlier statement...

But, to be honest, the only people I trust now are Fritzler and broomhead (and I do trust them completely).

...should send a chill through broomhead and Fritzler.

Are you saying they should be upset that I trust them, or that each should be upset that I trust the other? The former makes no sense, the latter makes little sense. Simply because

you

consider a genuine mason group broken doesn't mean others share this opinion.

The most likely way that I see for the game to be balanced is to have one of the "confirmed" three not be what (s)he seems. Since you're the least reasonable of the three, I think it might be you.

Least reasonable, or just most active? I just want to state that I'm very concerned about this degenerating into a fight between the two of us. Do you think we've made progress?

[Adele]

WIFOM means "wine in front of me" and is referencing Vizzini's speech in Princess Bride where he considers which wine glass is more likely poisoned. The way it's used lazily in mafia games is when people say "oh, he brought up a situation that looks right from one angle, but not another! WIFOM!" as though the person who brought up the subject is somehow at fault for doing so simply because it can't be known for sure. Lawyers must employ the "which makes more sense" arguments all the time. Does the opposing counsel say "WIFOM"? Or is the opposing counsel forced to show how his/her case is the stronger? I'm saying that anyone who counters a case with "WIFOM" is attempting a shortcut and, basically, saying "I don't have a compelling counter-argument."

I've gotta disagree with that analysis. The point of WIFOM is the "but that's what he

wants

me to think" regression that turns an otherwise potentially relevant argument into Stone-Paper-Scissors.
For example, in a recent newbie game I argued to the bitter end that Tamuz must be innocent because Kain (the previous day's lynch, and scum) had fought with him; each had sought the lynching of the other, which doesn't make sense if they're both scum. Except Tamuz had banked on someone arguing that when he attacked his scum buddy. The game was a win for him and a lose for me as a result. The point of WIFOM is that "which makes more sense" arguments are very often

not valid

in a mafia context.
When you accuse someone of WIFOM, you're saying a vital aspect of their argument is invalid. Seems like a fairly compelling - if short - counterargument to me.

[Adele]

It's rather unusual for the mod to say "names that are good = good roles" and "no name claim day 1.

when did the mod say that? i mean, i have thug in my name and i was assured i was good. when did he say this?

A good rule of thumb: If your character was a hero or a comedy 'sidekick' in the movie - you are town. If you were the villian in the movie you are scum.

(by my reckoning, this rule of thumb neither clears nor condemns MeMe aka Lena)

And I agree with broomhead - I think there are 2 scum remaining. Chaotic, assuming you survive the day, could you by any chance investigate Tamuz tonight? He's pinged my scumdar a lot, but has a really solid claim.

[Adele]

But I'm

not

calling you an idiot, MeMe.

scum who was willing to 1) ignore the fact that you'd likely be protected and 2) was hoping that your death wouldn't make it more likely I'd be bandwagoned in an instant by your grieving, trusting partners. The first would be idiotic for scum desperate for town deaths...the second would be idiotic for me.

I thought the likelihood of me being protected was the same as Fritzler and broomhead, and that scum might well think it's worth the 1/3 no-kill risk because (assuming for a moment that all masons are innocent) the scum have to night-kill the masons as quick as possible (that's my opinion, based on the fact that it's unlikely any of us will be lynched soon). And I don't think that you'd be in so much a worse situation if I were dead this morning.

[Adele]

I guess we

could

lynch someone else (say, Pariah) and challenge MeMe to vig Chaotic_Diablo. I'm up for that.
What would people think of that plan?

[Adele]

MeMe - well, what did you expect? You suggest we put your vig powers to the test, knowing full well that no mason (I hope you guys won't object to my making an absolute statement) would support the killing of any other mason. That leaves one to lynch today and one for you to nightkill - two deaths out of three remaining individuals! With a claimed doc and cop, one of these would have to die somewhere.

Besides, if this

is

a LyLo and you

are

scum, game over. I don't bite.

Everyone - I realise that some people think broomhead looks scummy. He's not. Please just trust me on this (and yes, I know how you hate to hear that, but still).

Tamuz - You think this might be a LyLo so you advocate killing one of the masons? That's where you think the best odds lie? If it weren't for your roleclaim...

I think I'm back at wanting to lynch MeMe. If broomhead would be nice enough to vote for her and someone else jumped on too, that'd be great.

[Adele]

Hey, wait, it's not LyLo right now. What was Tamuz saying?

[Adele]

How about suggesting a NO-LYNCH or that we lynch the one pro-town player 1) not claiming a power role and 2) not a mason?? That would be Tamuz. I don't understand how your suggestion "get rid of the protection AND the cop" should get anyone other than scum excited.

The thing is, though, Tamuz has such a solid claim, while Pariah and Chaotic... I just suspect them to a greater extent.

In what universe could this possibly be a lynch or lose?? The only one is if there are three scum left. Who's suggested that?

Tamuz has.

Yes Broomhead, I am saying that. If F.A.B. is a mafia then the town is in Lylo RIGHT NOW. Otherwise it will be 2 or 3 to 3 tommorow. Game over town.

He's suggesting that the mason group - all three of us - could be a mafia. Never mind that that would mean a total of 5 scum this game. It confused me for a while.

Talking me round to this "testing you" idea would be really hard. It might still be possible, though. I've not completely made my mind up, although if someone put another vote on you, I wouldn't cry over it.

@Pariah: I know. I get how frustrated you all must be with us (especially, probably, with me) and I know I'd be pissed off if I was in your position. It's a little frustrating (though not nearly so much) for me that I can't give you what you want; I can just tell you that I have reasons to trust them even above and beyond the whole "mod confirmed them in strongest possible terms; if either of them

were

scum, then I'd never sign up to a vIQleS game again and would OMGUS vote him unto eternity" argument.

[Adele]

I'm not saying you don't have nightkills, I'm saying I doubt you're protown. I still think it's possible you're an sk; possibly one who can self-protect instead of killing, I don't know.

[Adele]

Who of the other three non-masons - if we were to sign up to this plan - would you prefer to leave living, given the choice?

[Adele]

No, I mean, if two out of Chaotic, Pariah and Tamuz are chosen to town-killed; one to be lynched and one nightkilled by you, then one would be remaining. Which one would you suggest live to be with us tomorrow morning?

[Adele]

Part of me was hoping to wind this up quickly because I'm going away this weekend. I'll try to post tomorrow morning and should be back Monday evening, I just don't like holding people up.

[Adele]

Pariah. If we take the claims at face-value, he's the most useful.

Is he? Chaotic_Diablo could confirm broomhead or me.

[Adele]

Tamuz is the least

potentially

useful, yes - but also least likely to actually be scum. I'm okay with losing him, though.

[Adele]

Fritzler! Hi! Your thoughts,

please

, lest this turn into a two-pony show (there's every chance I'm using that phrase incorrectly).

[Adele]

Chaotic_Diablo's cop. I'd be okay with that if you and broomhead think it's wise.

So, the provisional plan would be "Lynch Tamuz, set MeMe vigging Pariah, and ask Chaotic_Diablo to investigate Adele or broomhead (either as C_D prefers, or decided in conference with other non-masons)"?

[Adele]

Probably best he doesn't tell us his intentions either.

[Adele]

okay, then

unvote, vote Tamuz

ps if i die soon i'll replace for you

ta

[Adele]

Oh, you're not sure about it?

The only thing is that wherever my vote is 3 hours from now might be where my vote stays for 3 more days, so I want to come to a decision for the short-term, but potentially for the day, as soon as I can.

[Adele]

We don't

own

it, but we

are

in a position to forcibly make certain decisions (assuming broomhead joins us; I think I'd support any majority mason decision and I think he would too).

The sk point might be relevant though. MeMe, do you have a useful answer to this?

[Adele]

if MeMe was town, and we had 3/4 votes on her for about 24 hours, then why didn't a mafia "agree" with us and lynch MeMe

Or because mafia knows we'll look hard at them tomorrow, or (Tamuz will argue) one of the masons is the scum.

The sk point might be relevant though. MeMe, do you have a useful answer to this?

What do you expert to her to say? I'm not a sk?

And provide a way for us to believe her - or at least how the "let MeMe live" plan would pan out well for the town if she were sk.

[Adele]

okay, but say for one moment that MeMe is sk and C_D's the remaining scum. Then say we lynch Tamuz, and next morning Pariah's dead and so's, say, Fritzler - much what you'd expect if MeMe were telling the truth. What would we do then? Especially if C_D claimed that broomhead's claim was false.

[Adele]

Player name - claimed character name, claimed ability:

Adele - Fat Sam, in mason with Fritzler & broomhead
Fritzler - Knuckles, co-mason
broomhead - Snake-eyes, co-mason
Chaotic_Diablo - O'Dreary, back-up rolename cop
Pariah - Fizzy, doc
MeMe - Lena Marelli, self-protector/vigilante
Tamuz - Bugsy Malone, now vanilla

Also, I'm not going to be away this weekend after all. Sorry for getting your hopes up.

[Adele]

My info on her [MeMe] matches with her role, but it can't tell her alignment. I believe her charater did try to interefere with Busy's relationship with Blousey a few times, but I'm not sure that qualifies enough to actually be an SK.

Nope, it was Tallulah (Aelyn) who tried to interfere with Bugsy and Blousey's relationship. Here's what Maz's site had to say about Lena:

Big New York stage director Oscar De Velt is auditioning replacements for his big show. A parade of bad performers stream across the stage until Blousey gets her turn. Before she can sing a note, Lena Marelli, the missing star struts back in (“Show Business”).

And that's it. She wasn't a "hero or comedy 'sidekick'" in the movie, and her only actions and relationships were negative; that's why I'm so suspicious of her.

And this is something I don't like to say, but if broomhead is scum, then he's a much better player at night than in the daytime. Y'know, I can't point you to stuff, but the mason has discussed stuff a lot; steered one another this way or that, and both Fritzler and broomhead have steered me towards distrust in folk who turned out to be scum and steered me away from distrusting from folk who turned out to be innocent.

@Tamuz: WTF? Are you seriously suggesting that all three masons might in fact be scum? If not, then your plan of "lynch one to prove the others" wouldn't work

anyway

.

@MeMe: ah. Well, I don't doubt your powers so much as your allegiance, so I don't know how valuable "testing" you would be.

[Adele]

MeMe: what if (again, as a possibility) we lynched Pariah or Chaotic-Diablo and you vigged Tamuz. I mean, if the other plan was that we lynch Tamuz and you vig Pariah or C_D, this way the same people die...

[Adele]

Sorry, I don't mean to ignore the no-lynch option; to clarify, I'm against it, very strongly.

If you think Pariah could protect during a night he died, then that does change my plan. Would you be okay, then, with lynching C_D and vigging Tamuz?

I just want to be clear on who would be okay with killing whom so we can find a solution that's satisfactory to a majority.

[Adele]

Why

are you against a no-lynch?

Because it increases the ratio of scum actions to town actions . If you felt very certain about the innocence of two others, I think you'd feel safer and happier killing potential scum than no-lynching.

[Adele]

What does Meme vigging proove?
If she is scum or SK, it says nothing.

Well, no, because if she's mafia, we can expect 1 kill, but if she's an sk or a vig, we can expect 2 kills - hers, plus the scum's. So if there's 1 kill tomorrow or the wrong people died, we lynch her. Otherwise, we look at the facts we have at the time and move forward from there.

[Adele]

Good question - I can't see the mafia no-killing, not when things (hopefully) are going so badly for them anyway. Here's a suggestion. It might be a bit "out there", but I'm at least going to mention it as a possibility.

We lynch Tamuz. Pariah

promises

to protect either broomhead or C_D. C_D

promises

to investigate broomhead. MeMe

promises

to vig Pariah.

Come morning, we almost certainly would have confirmation on broomhead's name and thus allegiance, so broomhead and Fritzler would both be confirmed, and we have more information on MeMe. Downside is, it's fairly likely that MeMe, Fritzler or I would die.

[Adele]

Unofficial Vote Count

MeMe: 2 (broomhead, Fritzler)
Tamuz: 1 (Adele)
Broomhead: 1 (Tamuz)

4 to lynch

[Adele]

C_D's hint will tell us at least if broomhead's name-claim was truthful or not. If you promise to protect either C_D or broomhead, the mafia will probably attack elsewhere. Stark (now confirmed cop) confirmed Fritzler's nameclaim, so you can at least trust that. I still don't entirely trust Tamuz, but it sounds like a lot of people do.

Look, I'm on board to lynch or test MeMe. If you're okay with lynching her but not any of the other options that have been floated, vote for her, and I'll cast vote 4. This is an open invitation.
Otherwise, please suggest another path to take - preferably one that doesn't involve lynching broomhead or Fritzler.

[Adele]

Sorry, Tamuz, didn't see you there.

[Adele]

Who would we lynch, then? MeMe? That wouldn't work.

[Adele]

It's okay, I guess. But how much more information can you hope to get now?

[Adele]

unvote

[Adele]

Meme - 1 - Fritzler

sorry, I thought broomhead was voting for MeMe too?

[Adele]

The fact that there's actually possible movie evidence for a possible traitor makes me feel comfortable to make a vote I've wanted to make for a long time.

Everyone

has wanted to vote for broomhead for a long time. He's been accused of acting scummy for a long, long time; saying the wrong things at the wrong times. Fritzler and I have spoken with him at night. I'll say it again:

if broomhead's scum he plays very cleverly at night and not very cleverly in the day

.

And can anyone tell me why everyone seems to trust MeMe? Going back to what alexander said on day one:

Tallulah is dead! Why is this good? Well, because she is somewhat "on the fence" character - not really evil, but not really good as well. So, had someone claimed Tallulah, I would not be at all sure they are a townie. But, Tallulah is dead and turned out to be town. With her out of the way, almost all remaining roles are clearly polarized between good and evil.

Then you've got someone (MeMe=Lena) who's only ever bad in the film, claiming bulletproof/vig which is identical, but for alignment, to bulletproof/sk.

I'm not "trying to lead the town" any more than I always was (I'm not shy with my opinions) - or, come to that, any more than MeMe does. She and I, you may have noticed, have been butting heads since day 1. The difference between us now? Her nameclaim isn't indicative of her alignment, while mine is. She can skulk and hide at night or go and kill someone, while I can talk with others who I have seen lots and lots of reasons to trust, and none to distrust.

If MeMe wants to survive today, she has to convince all three other non-masons to vote for a mason - and you guys are playing into that, bigtime. I don't feel lordly or anything right now - highly frustrated, in fact. Well played, MeMe.

[Adele]

Oh, and Fritzler, broomhead, how appropriate do you guys think it would be to disclose more fully the sorts of things we've been discussing at night?

[Adele]

Tamuz, what do you mean, "the masons"? You mean all three of us? You believe it's possible that this was a 5-scum game?

[Adele]

@Pariah, could you reveal your night results? If we've had two kills a night, it's probable that you got lucky and blocked most of them, although I highly doubt it.

I don't know about that. Like I say, I think it's pretty likely MeMe's mostly telling the truth (just lying about being a vig rather than SK). Unnightkillable is not that unusual with SKs, and I can imagine her opting to self-protect instead of kill until the endgame.

broomhead, you didn't answer my question. How would you feel about sharing some of the night-time mason discussions?

As to the accusation of arrogance, I'm sorry, I don't mean to seem disrespectful of anyone in this game. I just genuinely believe that it's 99% likely that my mason buddies are for real, while I still somewhat suspect the non-masons. I'm pretty sure two non-masons are pro-town (possibly 3, but I do doubt it), so I don't know who I should be accusing and who I should be convincing. I'm now up to about 80% sure that I think MeMe's scum, so that's simplified things a bit.

[Adele]

Adele, as a person who has modded before, I assure you anything is possible, it all comes down to how crazy the mod wishes to make the game.

If you believe it's possible there are three scum left, why do you assume they are in the mason, rather than possibly the other three non-masons?

People seem willing to make extremely unlikely assumptions to explaim why the masons can't be trusted.

Oh Adele, I suggest you and the 'masonry' play wth your hand open, it wll beneft the town most at this point (that is to an earlier point).

But you see, from my perspective you're about 50/50 likely to be scum (with a safe claim, or a lucky guesser). And it would be completely unethical for me to reveal things they've said in confidence, when it might put them in greater danger of a nightkill or some such. It's just not a decision I feel I have a right to make without their permission, I'm sorry.

[Adele]

i say we do, but i want you to do it since things that come out of my mouth appear scummy to everyone but me, but please be careful

Let Fritzler do it.

I think I've just been insulted! But that's cool with me. Fritzler can feel free to say or not say as much as he thinks is suitable, as he prefers.

[Adele]

Why are we delegating the responsibility to someone else from Broomhead on the reasons of "everything I say sounds scummy?" So he can let others do the talking for him, when any of them should resonably be able to do it? Honestly, I'd expect Broomhead to be the least likely to be able to "trick/decieve/whatever" us out of all three of them.

First off, it was never going to be broomhead. I suggested I say certain stuff. He was just reaffirming that.
Second, the main point of this is to try to defend broomhead - as in, I want to defend him, not for him to defend himself, which he doesn't seem very good at doing so far (sorry, mate, but you've had a bad run this game and there's no denyin'). My point here is arguments made in someone else's defence automatically carry more credence than arguments made in one's own defence.
Third, there's every chance he doesn't know specifically what points I was going to bring up, while there's a better synchronicity between Fritzler and I so I reckon he'd know what I was getting at.
Fourth, I'm worried wemight be getting to an ad hominem point here, at which points made by broomhead are automatically trusted less because they were made by broomhead.
Fifth, if broomhead is innocent, as I am arguing, then he has unfortunately inadvertantly mislead the town quite a bit, towards thinking he's scum.

[Adele]

Coolsie, but if broomhead ends up getting lynched, you suck.

Okay, so could someone remind me why they aren't voting for MeMe? Barring the "all three masons could be scum" argument, which is, to my view, directly countered by the "yeah, but alternatively three non-masons could be scum" argument.

[Adele]

You just like saying "fo sho", am i right?

[Adele]

Also, is there a good reason the masons have decided to deny the rest of the town their opinions and talk? Because that honestly frustrates me to no end, and I would very much like to hear that.

What do you mean? We've been very active indeed.

[Adele]

Over the course of the nights, we said a whole bunch of stuff to one another. I expect Fritzler's concern is that if he puts it all out there, the more astute members of the group - those that have successfully pegged the scum - are in greater danger of a night-kill. It's a valid concern.

Besides, the whole point of the night-talk ability, the PM-ing, is you have the opportunity to share certain thoughts only with people of the same alignment. If we reveal all, the scum

will

know what we've been saying. It's a betrayal, when the understanding is that these things were said in confidence.

Don't we have a right to privacy?

[Adele]

I support no lynch. I'll investigate Pariah, he'll protect me. If Pariah's role is cleared, Adele is most likely confirmed as well. If I die, Pariah is scum. Meme will kill either Tamuz or Broomhead. If neither of them die, Meme is scum. If Meme is our scum, she will be forced to kill one of them or be revealed.

If all ends well, the ones who can possibly be scum are Meme, Tamuz/Broomhead, and I. The cleared are Pariah, Adele and Fritzler. If we have two scum, we still have enough people to survive. If we have two kills during the night, we have one scum left.

On first consideration, that plan seems okay (not ideal, but acceptable) to me; but then, most plans seemed okay to me when I first heard them

Would we decide which of Tamuz or broomhead should be night-killed by MeMe? If we leave her to her own devices she'll (almost) certainly pick broomhead, but there are ways to randomly choose one of them, if that's agreed to be fairer. And when I say "randomly", I don't mean I toss a coin and you all just trust me!

[Adele]

@MeMe: I checked. broomhead knew.

I'm sure you're about to present a pro-town reason for wanting to know... y'know, since you're asking if broomhead and I (who you don't trust) are able to verify Fritzler (either the most or second most trusted person in the game).

Also, MeMe, you haven't commented on this

I support no lynch. I'll investigate Pariah, he'll protect me. If Pariah's role is cleared, Adele is most likely confirmed as well. If I die, Pariah is scum. Meme will kill either Tamuz or Broomhead. If neither of them die, Meme is scum. If Meme is our scum, she will be forced to kill one of them or be revealed.

I'm also obviously interested in whether you'd be okay with giving broomhead a chance (say 50/50) of not being your nightkill with this plan.

[Adele]

ROFL.

Hate to say it, but Fritz ain't wrong there.

[Adele]

As I said earlier, there is a way of leaving the Tamuz/broomhead argument up to chance but still decide it ahead of time. I'd prefer MeMe kill Tamuz to broomhead; very much so, but I think it's pretty clear this is the best we are likely to get?

http://www.random.org had a link to http://cgi.cs.duke.edu/~des/vct/vct.cgi which tosses a coin once a minute and leaves that data up so people can agree to a particular future coin toss and independently survey the results after it takes place. Does everyone agree that's independent of all players and otherwise fair game?

If so, I suggest that if it comes up Tails, MeMe nightkills Tamuz, and if it comes up head, MeMe nightkills broomhead. I'd also suggest that MeMe gets to pick the coin toss time (obviously a toss after the time-pick post). If (or when) she does so, to ensure no later arguments, I'd request she lay it out in this format:
"February 14, 2006, 10:43 PM (US Eastern Time Zone)"

vote: No Lynch

oh yeah, and I also promise, MeMe, not to interfere in your nightkill, whether I like the result of the coin toss or not.

[Adele]

bah! Simul-posts suck!

[Adele]

Well she could re flip it and kill broomhead.

Nah, that's not how it works. We could all look at the history and see what the "true" toss was. The site's designed for this very sort of thing (fair coin toss for people on different continents).

This VCT page allows multiple parties in different locations to perform a coin toss which they all can verify separately. Most (if not all) other sites do not provide any means for the exact same toss to be viewed in more than one place at one time.

Not to say she can't be trusted, but I chose this site so there's no doubt in anyone's mind, because it

can't

be fiddled.

[Adele]

Cutting it a bit fine, MeMe - it could be argued that you should have had a couple minutes' buffer. Either way, you played fair, I saw the post before the VCT clock hit 11pm EST, and it came up heads. Darn.

I'm sorry, broomhead.

[Adele]

whoa. It looks like, in a sudden turn of events, chaotic_diablo's plan is going to happen.

I support no lynch. I'll investigate Pariah, he'll protect me. If Pariah's role is cleared, Adele is most likely confirmed as well. If I die, Pariah is scum. Meme will kill either Tamuz or Broomhead. If neither of them die, Meme is scum. If Meme is our scum, she will be forced to kill one of them or be revealed.

Can I ask that everyone promise to play their part?

MeMe will nightkill broomhead
Masons will not interfere with MeMe's nightkill
chaotic_diablo will investigate Pariah
Pariah will protect chaotic_diablo

have I missed anything?

[Adele]

er... Tam, it's been, like, decided you aren't gonna die tonight. Did you miss that? One more vote for "no lynch" (from anyone) puts the plan in action.

Actually, you're the only player who (if telling the truth) is going to have no night activity at all tonight. MeMe's a-killin', Pariah's protectin', Chaotic's investigatin' and us masons will be a-chatterin'.

[Adele]

we only went into twilight 36 hours ago... but if you're due to get back on Thursday then you'd probably be back by the start of "tomorrow", or nearly. The mod is wise, and I wouldn't want to try to second-guess him, but there's very little chance you'll need replacing, even assuming you do survive tonight.

...actually, I'd already let the mod know the day's ended (I seriously have too much time on my hands, plus this twilight seemed pretty dead) so it might be that we hit night before Friday evening. I hope so; I'd like to talk to you at least a little bit tonight say bye-bye.

[Adele]

Bah!

Go Town.

[Adele]

Good Game.

I also applaud Foolster41 and Maz Medias for trying their best in an impossible situation

Pfft. I mean, don't get me wrong, yeah, they were good, but

you

got the

town's permission

to

nightkill

a

mason

!

Of course,

my

reason for agreeing to this was to try to get rid of you once and for all.

So, you nightkilled me instead of broomhead. I think I get why you did that but I'd've expected Fritzler?

Maybe C_D confirmed your role because vIQleS decided to try to make amends?

Anyway, can't wait for the rundown. This is my first win, (even if I

am

dead), so yay!

[Adele]

You should've waited a couple minutes before unvoting MeMe on Day... 4, was it? Then I'd've had a chance to pop on the hammer. I would've been happy to look way suss if it meant getting

her

out of the way... she was such a thorn in my side, from back when she stalled the mass name-claim (and hoo-boy she did a good job of that too).

She was right, btw. I'd've done anything, including kill every other townie, to make the mason group a majority .

The only reason I vetoed the early vigs is because there was a (dire but unspecified) penalty to vigging... a... townie...

OMG! Maybe that was the balance; the two times we tried to vig someone it was MeMe, scum, and it didn't go through. Maybe our vig wouldn't work on scum (my "people" were characterised as "bumbling fools") but attempted vigs on townies would go through

and

would backfire, killing, say, both the townie and Fritzler. None of that would contravene the "mods shouldn't lie" ideology, since none of it actually contradicts anything he said. And it

could

make the game more balanced than it would otherwise have appeared...

[Adele]

broomhead, they

all

did. Or at least, they were all worried it was reasonably likely.

[Adele]

I totally hope I'm right; do you think the game would have been balanced if I was right and also, say, Fritzler had been the boss and I'd been the lackey?

While both Fritzler and broomhead wanted to use their vig abilities, both had, at some time, been asked to make the decision to vig someone or not (eg, broomhead wanted to vig someone but I wasn't sure, or vice versa, I'd let Fritzler tie-break) and had vetoed vigs on pro-towners. Patterns like that are how I knew they were both pro-town for ultra sure, when I wouldn't have suspected them for saying "yeah, I think we should go for that vig.

Fritzler makes it sound like I ruled with an iron fist or something . I only vetoed majorly the first and maybe the second night.

Sorry for the obsessive posting; I have had

such

itchy fingers to post in this thread since I died.

[Adele]

Okay, I'm curious. I went to IMDB and saw a post in Bugsy Malone saying "Please tell me about the characters!" kind of thing. I figured it was probably placed by scum from this game. Was it? The screenname was totally different from anyone's game screenname, but I was so

sure

. Bugged the hell outta me because even if I could track down who placed it, it'd be inadmissable evidence anyway .

[Adele]

Yeah, with what you were saying earlier and the lack of further entreaties on IMDB I figured you for a possibility, but scum as likeliest.

Also: . I was not happy with you disappearing off. It made me a sad panda. You suck!

[Adele]

Hee... did finding that quote contribute to you making the decision (to disallow mass claims day 1) that upset Alex so much he left the game? 'Cause that'd be sooo funny...

[Adele]

Nah, I liked your play style, I just thought you shouldn't have left. I felt... betrayed