1116 - Literally Anything uPick

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Vote: Zang

for not bandwagonning.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Unvote, vote: Leo

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Were you aware that Chronopie didn't have a vote on him when you placed that vote, Plum?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Do you think it's relevant that he didn't have any votes on him? Do you think it's relevant that I think it's relevant that he didn't have any votes on him?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You misunderstood. I'm not talking about relevant in the sense that it tells us something about his alignment. I think it's relevant in the sense that it should guide our actions.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

We are both on Page 1. And what I'm driving at is that you should make a more useful vote (e.g. a second vote on the wagon).

P.S. my line of questioning was intentionally vague.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Try reading the posts in this thread.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You opposing a theoretical bandwagon stage (I go for a RVS-Bandwagon stage hybrid myself) doesn't strike me as all that relevant in terms of understanding why things matter to me (or why I claim a thing matters).

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Were you aware that Chronopie didn't have a vote on him when you placed that vote, Plum?

Why does this matter?

I second this question. Fact is this is the

random voting stage

, which isn't meant to be entirely serious until someone slips up or says something revealing; getting people to L-4 and L-3 or lower doesn't seem to be the point and works counter to town.

I consider the point of view you propound to be antithetical to the town's interests. The RVS holds very little value if we intentionally take it less seriously or restrict what's allowed go in there. And bandwagonning is nearly always pro-town.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I actually dislike RVS and RQS: things that shouldn't normally be allowed at any part of the game, like building up large wagons without allowing players to really have a coherent defense without providing us analysis or information are allowed to be the norm.

See, I think that should be allowed during most parts of the game. Bandwagonning is pro-town, people. The existence of wagons makes posting meaningful.

Yes, the town's best weapon is in it's (sic) lynch, but it's informed lynches that the town wins in, not creating large random bandwagons with practically no information.

You're pushing a false dichotomy here. Bandwagons don't turn into lynches all that easily - you can have large bandwagons without giving up informed lynches (although there is a certain trade-off, sure). And don't pretend seemingly random bandwagons carry no information

I think you expect someone to crack with early pressure, but most good players are aware a RVS is that...an RVS.

That's only true if you look down on RVS like you do. I just think of it as a good moment to get a bandwagon going. What kills early pressure, is this unholy focus on getting informed lynches. You know what hurts town much more than uninformed lynches? Apathy. There's nothing wrong with unjustified votes if can get something going.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'm not even sure we're not arguing differences in game play here: I feel that creating random wagons without at least a little information encourages sheeping, which is not a protown behavior, which could encourage the quick lynch.

The quicklynch is just a boogeyman.

I think this necessarily should be avoided whenever possible: "Why'd you vote that?" "Well, everyone else was doing it and we were supposed to be wagoning."

You just have to ask different questions. It's not that hard.

For folks who like to analyze bandwagons, what folks said about who's currently the scum favorite and figure out crap logic, it can be a tedious part of the game, due to the attitude that nothing really can be taken seriously that's been in affected in most games. ("Well...that doesn't count. That's RVS.")

That attitude is misplaced.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Fake post restriction is fake.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I checked Leo's posting history. This is new.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'm fairly sure that's just SC's playstyle, Doombunny9.

Why do you assume it's a fake post restriction?

I don't, actually. I called out as fake to see if he'd drop it in response.

P.S. bandwagonning outside RVS is fine.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

The case against Plum sucks.

Dayprotect: Plum

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Hunch.

Unvote, vote: AntB

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Uh.

I meant

Unvote, vote: StrangerCoug

.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

@CES-Erm... This is it? I reckon at least one or two people asked you about why you protected Plum. You could at the very least answer that.

My action speaks for itself.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Not voting for anyone is anti-town.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I understand that bit but someone (I think ghost but whatever, it doesn't matter) was wondering why you would use up a protect on Plum when she only had a few votes on her.

I don't respond to rolefishing.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I don't respond to rolefishing.

How is this rolefishing? I already know that you have a dayprotect. All I want to know is why you protected Plum so early on. This has nothing to do with role other than what we already know.

All you know is that I posted "Dayprotect: Plum". You don't know nearly as much as you think you do.

I'm unsure as to Powerrox - I feel he could just be a newbie playing awkwardly.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

O RLY

YARR RLY.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Do you often see premature claims from scum?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Good answer, although I believe it's a town tell 'round these parts. I don't deny that the above thinking is solid; the people that claim early just tend to play more impulsively and fake-claiming generally requires at least a bit of thought.

Powerrox, flavour?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I've seen Town Bus Drivers. I'm not sure as to whether there's an alignment correlation on 'Scum. I don't think Rox is scum anyway.

P.S. If scum want to quickhammer, let them. 1-for-1 is a good trade.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Oh man, that's pretty awesome.

And yeah, the fear for a quickhammer is pretty justified.

Confirm vote: StrangerCoug

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

For a moment, I thought I got that PM through mod error, so I ignored it. Now that you've outed yourself by trying to take us down with loaded questions supposedly to each other, I feel... There are no words for this. I'm willing to sacrifice myself just to show how ineffective and scummy this gambit is.

How is it scummy?

If Plum is town, We Lynch Leo tomorrow.

Nonsense. If the gambit turns out to have gone awry, that's no reason to suspect Leo. The role interactions Leo has claimed have been verified by Plum and SC. I don't see scum making the kind of play Leo did; it shows iniatitive.

Guess who was wondering who sent that message and trying to reason out who could've sent it? I figured that some sort of scum message went awry and was either redirected at me or copied to me unbeknownst to the scum. First thing I could think of was to post a smiley and ask a question and see if anyone started acting odd afterwards (I suppose I might've waited to see if anyone started a post with a smiley or not, but I assumed that it had been a message redirected).

Have you ever played in a game with redirected day actions (in addition to having a bus driver)? I don't buy it.

Scum would (in general) either know who their buddies are and their abilities (which would include sending messages in the middle of the Day, nach) and have either Nighttalk or anytime talk anyway.

That's really not necessarily true on Day 1. Role names aren't always that descriptive and you may have simply failed to check your PM.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Plum can be lynched.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I think Plum and SC are scum, yes.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

1. I thought that it was plausible, especially in a setup apt to have more complex/obscure role in, that the message I was sent had been copied from a message sent between players who presumably were scumbags. I had no better hypothesis than that some role interaction had caused me to receive scum communication. Hell, if someone submitted as a role someone who pioneered wiretapping techniques, this could easily be a role resolution. I had no reason to think that such a role/interaction in this game was less likely than anything else specifically.

You said your assumption was redirect earlier, not copy. Nice backtracking. Copy wouldn't've been a crazy assumption, but in that case posting that response would've been a silly misplay. Don't try to sneak this one by me. CONFESS.

2. Rolenames aren't always descriptive? Possibly, but I'm fairly certain that if a scumbag had read his Role PM well enough to summarize it to the Mod as was required he'd be aware of whether or not the scum had Daytalk or not and be surprised by completely anonymous communication he wasn't expecting. Basically, under what circumstances would scum be expected to respond to an anonymous message asking if he wanted to be bussed with a direct reply - given that the player wouldn't know who asked him if he wanted to be bussed anyway? If he doesn't know who 'I' is when asked 'should I bus you'.

I'm talking about what in this case would be SC's role name. Details of his role wouldn't be in your role PM. The latter question is valid, but not that convincing (e.g. I can easily imagine you two being a 2-man scum group or SC having a suggestive role name).

Seeing if any scum panicked, thinking I had seen their communication and/or knew anything else about them because of it.

Name one concrete thing that scum panicking would've entailed. I wouldn't expect that to work.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I explicitly noted copied as one of the possibilities that occured to me.

Hmm, yes. Looking back you didn't commit to redirection, specifically, I should've checked that.

Any fixation on that post of mine, noticing the smiley at all in the thread (and especially attacking it or questioning it), behaving towards me differently than before after my post with no either explicitly regarding that post/for no well explained reason (e.g. if I'd been under mild suspicion from a player directly before that post and there was a sudden shift either towards attacking me harder or ignoring me more - or if a player had been ignoring me and suddenly became interested in me either way).

Attacking a smiley? Really? You also seem to be ignoring that scum would, upon learning or suspecting that you had intercepted sensitive information, try not to signal to you that that post was significant to them.

Leo is trying to kill two birds with one stone (read—get people to agree to either two mislynches or a lynch and a misvig). I still lean town on you, but I do see how you could be the acid test; most people don't start their posts with a smiley.

?? If either of you and Plum turn up town, there wouldn't be any specific reason to kill the other.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Unvote, vote: Plum

LYNCH -1.

Time for a claim. (I'd settle for a self-hammer.)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Time for a =======[].

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Dragging out the day is anti-town, Ghostlin. We should never come close to the deadline unless it's absolutely necessary.

Plum, I think my remark perfectly encapsulates what I think of your claim - I don't care. The ability is non-alignment-indicative and not strong enough to be worth saving.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES - Frankly I think it does have bearing on my alignment from an objective point of view, which you are not even considering - well.

I thought about it and I feel it doesn't.

Lol? Surely getting as much information as possible is town, meaning a day cut-short leaves less potential information?

Dragging out the day -> Apathy -> Inactivity/Replacements -> Less information. The direct loss of information is negligible compared to the effect intentionally dragging out the day has on town spirit. I've seen it happen way too often.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Looking at zings, my comrade Cogito Ergo Sum is most likely tovn. Vill read in ze morning.

Elaborate, Comrade.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I, for one, vouldn't mind seeing Pover telling us his N1 choices. I don't see a dovnside.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

It's obviously not set in ze USSR era.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Zat joke doesn't work if ve're not in ze USSR, comrade. The big political question of our time is serfdom.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Nice alt fail, comrade.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I got a re-read in.

Townish:
Leo
StrangerCoug
Chronopie (role-based)
Powerrox93

Null:
Doombunny9
Zang
Zodiark13
Ghostlin

Scummy:
AntB
AurorusVox
Battousai

Vote: AntB

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES 455- Any reasoning for ze vote? You come in only after being prodded and put up a veak post viz a vote viz no reason.

It was ze most relevant vote on a scum read I could place. I was working on ze re-read prior to being prodded zough, comrade.

One point zat hasn't been raised yet regarding Chrono is zis: eizer it's triggered by "Justice to XXXX" which supports his claim or he's playing very badly as scum.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Comrade CES: Is zere a reason to go viz your suspicion of me?

Yes, comrade.

Poverroxlynch = bad.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Ugh, fine.

Tovnish:
Leo - creative pro-tovn use of ability
StrangerCoug - stuff I probably shouldn't get into
Chronopie - role/balance considerations
Poverrox93 - don't really zink he's acted that scummily to the point zat he's relatively null given meta; content and method of claim struck me as pro-tovn; post regarding vhom he targetted tvigged my gut in a good vay.

Scummy:
AntB - after dayprotect, seemed to zink of neighbors foremost - if I were scum, the action makes more sense as buddying; lurking.
AurorusVox - iffy early votes; his continued suspicion of Poverrox (who is the obvious scum target)
Battousai - gut
Ghostlin - lack of scepticism regarding the dayprotect; his suspicions seem to match the easy targets rather well.

(Observant comrades will note zat Ghostlin is a nev addition to ze list.)

Let's svitch my vote for maximum productivity!

Unvote, vote: Battousai

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

2) Oh, I noted ze day protect, Comrade, and did at the time. Do I think zat makes you more scummy than Chronopie or PR? No. I wouldn't say it makes you more scummy than Battousai, even, but if you're free to comment on vhy you did it and zen summarily disposed of Plum, I'm an eager listener.

3) You've previously taken any speculation on day protect as rolefishing, even vhen we've asked you vhy, not role you've had. Vhy?

2) You misunderstand what I mean by "lack of scepticism". Think about it.
3) Can you really not see how my role would affect my actions?

Comrade CES: Saying Povverrox is the easy target strikes hollov vhen he's done some pretty scummy zings yesterday. Ze basic premise of my Povveroxx scumread is zat he justified not voting for his top scumread by saying he had only read one bad post. But zen he pointed out a number of zings (i.e. more zan "one bad post") zat he found scummy. And zen still didn't vote. He vas ultra-cautious, even ven he had a case, and zereby directly contradicted his own explanation of vhy he vas not voting. Zis happened twice viz tvo different people, IIRC.

He wouldn't be an easy target if he hadn't made some mistakes, now would he?

P.S. Let's

Dayprotect: StrangerCoug

.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES 474- Zis is more like it, but I find it laughable/scummy zat you call and vote the person calling you scum, scum vith your vhole case being gut.

Gut is glorious, comrade.

So you suspect AurorusVox for suspecting Poverrox93? Zat's not hov zis game vorks, comrade.

In part, yes. And zat can totes be hov zis game vorks.

2) Huh? I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Zat's 'cause you're scum.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Zat's 'cause you're scum.

Great idea! He must be scum for not understanding you! And razer zan try to explain vat you meant, you call him scum for no reason vhatsoever! You sir, are a genius.

He doesn't understand me because of an implicit assumption he's making. And it is definitely an assumption scum would be more likely to make. I don't really benefit from explaining it as I'd like to see how long it takes people to figure it out.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I oppose a Zanglynch, comrade.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Don't knov about ze blood, comrade.

Ve should lynch Batt.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I find that my gut is my most reliable scumhunting tool, personally. Your silly disparaging comments are uncalled for.

Comrade.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'm not particularly happy viz hov active I've been this game - I don't really have a feel for this game. I tried re-reading, but zat didn't quite pan out. I'm not sure vhy I'd be strategically voting for you over stating ze obvious in that respect. I really don't like it (i.e. find it scummy) that your last three posts have just been "CES is active lurking and using *gasp* gut."

He's not doing any scumhunting and ze best cases he can come up viz are "lololol its gut gusy" vhich at ze very best is lazy tovn.

Zat's at the very worst. Seriously, gut is good. Have you never found yourself zinking that someone is scum or tovn vizout somezing concrete to point to, comrade?

I still vant a response to my ISO post #45

I don't zink zere's a productive answer to zat post, i.e. furzer explanation would render ze explanation moot.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES agrees with Leo.

Comrade.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I agree with Ghostlin that abusing the lovered zreshhold (hov very russian, zreshhold) is anti-town due to concerns about information. Ghostlin does seem to have misunderstood Leo's point about Poverrox.

Ve should lynch Batt or AntB.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I zink it vould be vorzvhile for me to send you a message zat vay, comrade.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Leo looks at you to see whether you know how to do it already or need insturctions.

You send me a list of random letters and I vrite a message. I zen add up the two messages pointwise (i.e. I add the nth letter of the one-time pad to the nth letter of my message) modulo 26 (vhere A=1, B=2, etcetera.) Right, comrade?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Except the string is awbxcydz and not dwbxcydz, so it vould be dlr, comrade.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

emkkkevwtfkxtnjrwhwylkiimedkiqylwrwjkyomqzlvjqpoxcasqsndqgbqmelaswepas
vxtehfcgnapgtzbpapringlzcxsza

is my message. I used Mathematica.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Letting Leo send the one-time pads is confirmation enough for me zat it is legal, comrade.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'd switch my vote but I disagree with both more viable wagons.

People should vote for Batt.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Real shame; feel the town had good chances of winning this one.

Can't say I feel bad about my play this game:

Townish:
Leo
StrangerCoug
Chronopie (role-based)
Powerrox93

Null:
Doombunny9
Zang
Zodiark13
Ghostlin

Scummy:
AntB
AurorusVox
Battousai

Re: Dayprotect. It was meant as a simple reaction-test, but when people seemed to take for granted that it was real I figured I could try to create the impression that the protect was for during the night and try to draw the nightkill that way. The unexplained scum tell was the lack of scepticism towards the dayprotect.