Mini 1096 - Seinfeld Mafia (Game Over)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Greetings to all those I know ... which for the first time in my MS experience includes every player. I believe I've played a game (or some portion of a game) with every player on the list.

VOTE: Charter

We are always of differing alignment and since I am Town this game ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Disclaimer: I have never watched Seinfeld before, so in essence, I do not know any of the characters

Seriously am I seeing this?

Does anyone else see this statement?

I must be Crazy to be seeing this. Watch me flip out right here.

You do remember that this is the sort of things that led to me nailing you in LOTR Day 1 (thus necessitating your NK of me N1) right?

Right?

[MagnaofIllusion]

You do remember me claiming that too in Castlevania, where you modded, right?

Because, like castlevania, I have no knowledge of this show (at least this time I've heard of it).

and come now, if I were to do that EVERY time I were scum, my scum record would be absolutely atrocious.

Yes I do remember Castlevania ... that's what led me to my suspicion in LOTR.

In truth I just wanted to see your reaction. Especially since we are the only ones here.

Not that there's anything wrong with that ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

KMD, Tal and bv all haven’t posted. Which lurker is most likely scum based on this in your opinion(as statistically 1 of the 3 is scum based 4 of 12 Mafia in the game)?

EDIT - Damn you BV for Ninjaing me. Everyone pretend Bv didn't post before me for purposes of this exercise.

This just goes towards supporting my wild stab at LMP being scum

Hey look … scum motivation sighted!!

UNVOTE: Charter
VOTE: Untrod

So LMP makes a post that you say supports that he is scum yet you don’t actually vote him and keep a mindless RVS wagon vote? Solid scumtastic play!

LMP is bussing.

Can’t be since I’m not scum. Untrod could be distancing from him though.

I have a reason, but I can't say it yet.

Is it because you know I’ve seen your scum game up close and personal? If so I want a cookie with extra sprinkles. I’m watching you closely Mr. Lannister … but not as closely as LMP.

Alright, shedding my horrid entrance and taking a blind leap of faith.

unvote, vote Magna

Mindless bandwagoning hardly reduces the level of horribleness in your play so far. You do get points for acknowledging your first post was bad.

How many people is Untrod Tripod telling the truth about here? Any guesses?

If I had to guess I’d say 1. Regardless of his alignment I say he’s using that statement to help propel out of RVS.

If he’s scum it’s a nice layer of WIFOM as to whether he’s put his own teammates on that list in the eventuality he ever flips scum (and the odds are sky-rocketing as I demostrated above). I’d guess he’s moderately smart and only put 1 in the three I don’t know are Town.

If he’s Town I’d figure he wouldn’t do any worse than random chance (1/3) out of those I don’t know are Town, given we have ZERO to go on when he posted that list.

lack of Seinfeld knowledge, why sign of for a game you dont know anything about?
then his interactions with Magna.

I’ve signed up for Theme Games (Clash of Kings Mafia as an example) that I had zero Theme knowledge about based on the Mod. Why is that scummy? He had to sign up before roles are decided.

What about those interactions indicates Kats is scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Reverse pronouns.

So your logical reason is that you saw me as scum in Clash of Kings? Fantastic reasoning as that has everything to do with how roles are handed out in other game

Why are you watching LMP closely? You don't really mention him otherwise.

I have my reasons. Were you actually wanting to hear them?

I second this question. And confirm my vote. I'm thinking MoI and Untrod right now.

So you are confirming the vote you made on the basis that it would be better to lynch me D1 than have me NKed N1?

I love that.

You understand that I was just throwing around baseless accusations to get us out of RVS, right? It's called fishing for a response. MoI's response looks both pro-town and proactive to me. I've never seen a player of MoI's caliber do any kind of OMGUS on D1 as scum out of fear they'll get voted for it, so I'm going to assume on that basis that he is town for now. unvote Magnaface

Macavity's vote looks like town-flavored bandwagoning to me, whereas charter's looks like scum trying to hop on a seemingly random bandwagon to look proactive.

vote charter

So your baseless accusation happened to line up quite nicely with a RVS bandwagon on pure chance? Not buying that. This entire post smells of scummy back-peddaling where you are trying to assign your scummy motivations for joining my wagon to others.

More Untrod Votes Please!

Look at UT trying to divert all the attention away from MOI/LMP interaction at Charter.

Scum are making this easy.

Yes they are with the tech RVS wagon on me. Oh wait, you are on that aren’t you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

At least I came out and specifically said that I'm not going to give up my reasons yet. You going to do the same as regards LMP?

I’m not giving my reasons as of yet. My motivation is greatly different from yours, which was basically to disguise your method of moving out of RVS by wagonning for no reason.

MOI is still scum. UT is still probably his buddy.

Strike one and two. But humor me … actually provide a reason why I am scum as opposed to just throwing rhetoric around.

Yes. I'm confirming my vote. I bet you do.

So you are confirming a pointless RVS vote. And I love it for just that reason.

We understand each other.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@ bv310 and peanutman

– More content from you would be fantastic. Peanutman in particular I know from past experience is not a low-content player.

really i have to explain why 6 consecutive posts of useless banter is weird interactions. whats even weirder is the fact that Haschel completely ignores it and just randomly votes like hes in auto pilot.
who knows what Untrod Tripod was doing in his first couple post and if any of it was serious but he atleast calls both of them out.

Actually you really do need to explain why you found the first 6 posts of the game scummy if they were useless banter. Furthermore your assessment that those posts were useless is incorrect. They may be useless to you but they served a purpose for me.

and in light of MoI's quick defense of Katsuki i'll
unvote
vote: MoI

lets see some pressure.

Asking you to defend your position isn’t defending someone else. But please, explain how questioning your stated reasons for your vote is scummy.

p.s.MoI.

signing up for a game that you have little knowledge of is more jerkish than scummy.

especially since the signup went pretty fast. if it took a little longer than i would have over looked it as just filling it for the mod's sake, but im sure there are alot of fellow Seinfeld fans out that in the scumverse that would have played. but as you already pointed out people with a poor grasp of the theme screw up easier, ive done it in the past too. so why not put some pressure on him, especially since it was between him and you. *i bolded the main reason why he got my vote.

Emphasis added in bold. If this is the case why did you include the statement questioning his lack of Seinfeld knowledge as part of your voting justification? Seeing this explanation it looks more like padding / over-justification of your early vote to me. How is it not having flavor knowledge an indication in ANY WAY that said player drew a scum role from the Mod?

Again, as I expressed above, explain how the interactions between Kats and I are scummy.

Have you looked at the LOTR Mafia game I was referencing to see how I was identifying Kats as scum based on his flavor statements? If not you don’t understand why I pressured him on it. It wasn’t that he screwed up a flavor claim. It was all about the manner in which he presented his lack of knowledge in thread context.

I disagree completely that signing up for a Theme game with a Mod you like regardless of whether you know the source material is a jerk move.

[MagnaofIllusion]

UT says his "list".
UT takes the first opportunity to wagon a member of the list (saying "this is a wagon I can get behind").
Magna attacks UT.

Are you saying my statement about Untrod is not a valid scum-tell?

I think MOI is a great candidate for that 1 person. But that's a poor reason to lynch MOI, and my MOI vote was mainly just a reaction fishing/RVS-wagon vote anyways.

I’ll ask you again since you dodged my question the first time –

Please provide the scum-tells you are relying on to qualify me as a great candidate for scum.

And if you can’t support it other than to say it is distancing please indicate how you can differentiate from Town and Scum players attacking Untrod?

you and MoI both played with me before, you should know that i am town again.

This is absurd. Exactly how am I supposed to know you are Town on Page 3 based on a single past game?

I'm sorry, that is incorrect. Don't presume that you know my motivation(s); "wagoning for no reason" was not one of them.

I know that in 39 you stated that your ‘reason’ for suspicion of me was meaningless RVS schenanigans. Unless you lied about your motivation there I’m not making any assumptions.

I’ll ask you what I asked LMP – provide a substantive reason why your aren’t just pushing for me with only rhetoric.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think lynching UT is the first step in finding out. His scummy actions are enough to swing him, particularly where he tries to smear me, but doesn't vote me. The goldmine of data from his lynch only makes it more win.

I agree – UT is scum and he should swing so we can look more closely at his play when he flips scum.

For example – His RVS joke vote of you, combined with his ‘suspicion’ of you in post 34 looks like bad scum distancing since he voted for charter instead of you who he called scummy when he back peddaled on this obv-scum attempt to wagon me.

Continue bussing Untrod though …

[MagnaofIllusion]

When I said "Reverse pronouns", the implication was that I've seen your scum game before. Which can mean many things. It can mean that I'm voting you out of spite. It can mean that I'm voting you because you I know that you can be scum. It can mean meta.

Sure, it can mean lots of things. It can also mean you went to the Random Number Generator. What do all those things have in common? Zero scum-hunting that backs your rhetoric.

I've seen at least 4 people in this game as scum, one as my scumbuddy in a game about a year ago. And I'm not voting for any of them.

If this is supposed to be a meaningful point it fails in that regard.

I’m still waiting for you or LMP or anyone else to provide actual scum behavior.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You may claim to have a reason that you 'mysteriously' can't reveal. Whatever said reason is it has nothing to do with me being scum. Continue to gambit however you wish.

Still waiting for reasons ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

Unvote, Vote Haschel

Question for you KMD - is Haschel's unrevealed secret reason for a serious vote any different than MacLock's?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Probably not, but I'm getting more frustrated with Haschel because I'm dealing with him directly. For the same reason, I expect that you are more frustrated with Mac than with Haschel.

Fair enough.

No, I'm saying you used the opportunity to distance from a guy who was distancing from you. The whole interaction just looks scummy to me. I am open to the possibility of being wrong, hence my "UT is the wagon today, not MOI" position.

Interesting interpretation. The fact that you can’t say that it isn’t just as likely I found his play scummy and voted for him based on his horrible “Suspicion of LMP with no vote followed by back pedal unvote with no followthrough on LMP” tells me you are just blowing smoke.

I can't. Which is why UT is first. We'll go from there.

Lulz. So you can’t discern Town hunting scum UT from distancing. How again would UT flipping scum make it any more clear? That’s a rhetorical question – it wouldn’t.

Please continue to be unable to support why I might be scum other than unproven relational tells that aren’t predicated on actual scummy behaviour.

Alright, apparently Mac is the man, since he picked Magna right. Let's break down the scummier aspects of post 38.

Buddying noted. If Charter is scum Maclock is very unlikely to be scum with him.

First, him asking people to pick one scum out of three lurkers. It first presumes that only one of them is scum. I see no reason all three can't be scum or none of them. Second, he's asking people to just pull a name out of their ass and label that person as scum.

Yes, asking everyone to comment on the lurkers in an attempt to get reactions certainly is scum motivation. This is sarcasm BTW.

Then,

his extreme overreaction

to Untrod's post 34. It seems to me that 34 was a joke, since 32 looked like a joke. I find it difficult to believe that even Untrod believes his four people are scum, and how Magna cites this as his reason for voting Untrod. Very bad, but on the surface it looks like it is legit.

Bolded for emphasis is a classic unsupported statement. How is it an ‘extreme overreaction’. Be a big boy and support your assertions.

And an overreaction to 34? You must be kidding me. 34 is the classic precursor to scummy behaviour. He puts LMP on his joke scum list. Later he asserts that LMP’s 32 supports his ‘theory’ into that LMP is scum, yet when he unvotes the obv-bad bandwagon on me not a hint of his ‘scum suspect’ LMP. I’m not the only one who sees it given that both Haschel and LMP have commented on it.

Your attempt to minimize UT’s scummy behavior as ‘a joke’ is either stupid or scummy. Not sure which at this point.

Haschel gets scumpoints for agreeing with Magna's reason for voting Untrod.

KMD gets scumpoints because he voted Untrod and his town/scum list is nearly completely wrong.

Look, more inconsistency. LMP doesn’t also get scum-points as he has agreed UT’s behavior is scummy? Scumtastic.

How again is KMD’s list wrong? Is it because it lists you as Town?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So we lynch Magnascum now, yes?

Instead of responding to my points, he just shrugs them off with sarcasm and talking them down.

No, since I’m not scum. But don’t let that pesky little fact get in the way of your rhetoric.

I’ve responded as much as is possible in my last post. If you’d like to supply support for me to respond to I’ll happily do it. It’s hard to respond to empty statements like ‘extreme overreaction’.

Speaking of ignoring points you forgot to comment on this –

Look, more inconsistency. LMP doesn’t also get scum-points as he has agreed UT’s behavior is scummy?

Are you acquiescing that I am correct and you are being completely inconsistent in applying your scum-points?

Magna : It seems he's grasped onto one of UT's RVS comments and took that out of proportion even though he admits in iso-3 that UT was just stirring things up to get out of RVS.

So you don’t see Untrod’s listing of LMP on his fake scum list and then further suggesting he is scum odd when he places his ‘real’ vote on charter and ignores LMP as scum behavior?

And your attempt to say that scum behavior can’t occur or be spotted in RVS (which is not different than the rest of the game, BTW) is noted.

I'll VOTE: Magna because there's support for his lynch and I feel his case on UT's RVS actions doesn't hold up (given his admission that it was a way of getting out of RVS).

So pointing out scum-behavior is scummy?

SUMMARY: MOI LYNCH IS NEEDED ASAP. THEN LMP. THOSE TWO ARE SCUMBUDDYZ4LYFE.

Look, more relational scum-tells when we have yet to have a flip. Humor me. How can you be sure? You've never successfully read me when I am Town and you aren't scum.

Since you specifically included Caps for me I’m going to extend this Wall just for you …

PEANUTMAN IS TOWN BY VIRTUE OF #85

You are either scum or exhibiting the same questionable read judgement I saw in Prison Mafia. Just let me know which one it is, ok?

You know who I'd love to hear from?

UT.

Don’t hold you breath. Based on his posts list and [REDACTED] he looks to have flaked from the site.

So let’s take this time to discuss those you have ignored so far ..

What are your thoughts on Charter and Maclock who you for the most part ignored in your bullet-point list.

No, they are not. I first voted UT for a particular reason, and then I left it on him because I felt post 34 was scummy.

It's a moot point though, after rereading I feel that raj is a better bet. Unvote: Untrod Tripod; Vote: raj

See here is where you lose me Haschel. Up until now I thought you actually had some real game related reason to be pressuring Untrod. But this post clarifies that your behavior is no different than Maclock’s. What’s the purpose of continuing to push the mysterious angle when we got pushed out of the ‘HaHa Cute’ stage by Page 2?

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's the exact opposite of what a correct interpretation of my post would look like. I'm not pushing the mysterious angle, and in fact specifically stated I was no longer doing so. That's the opposite of MacLock.

Did I miss where you stated your specific reason? If so point me in the right direct.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm probably not going to be able to post before friday.

Thanks for letting us know you were going to continue not answering the questions I put to you.

@Everyone

- Does anyone have scum-meta on Charter lurking when Mafia? I've seen his Serial Killer game and it doesn't reflect his play here.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I want my MOI lynch, but LMP JUST WON'T GIVE UP.

You know what goes great with this statement? Reasons. I want support now for why you think I am a good lynch.

I'm really sick of trying to cheerlead the Magna wagon. Can the rest of the town please come sort of collective conclusion as to the fact that it's real?

It must be tiring trying to push a wagon when the only reason for your vote is “secret information” (aka nothing). So either actual post something that demonstrates why I am scum or just go back to lurking.

No. And "agreeing that UT's behavior is scummy" isn't why I find you suspicious.

Are you purposely continuing to DODGE the question purposefully? Scumtastic.

The question has to do with your inconsistent treatment of your ‘scum-points’, not why you suspect me.

Here it is,

YET AGAIN

, for you to easily see –

Why does Haschel get scum-points for agreeing with my reasoning on Untrod but LMP does not?

If you don’t answer directly in your next post I’ll just take it that you are scum who threw together a crap post together at 83 in a failed attempt to look like you were scum-hunting.

you are trying to say that it was legit for you to try to get a town person lynched? and i wasnt lynched for a long time because those arnt really scum tells for me, just like now.

Insert face-palm pic here

…

Of course it was legit for KMD, in Harry Potter Mafia, to try to lynch a Town player. That’s what scum do. Do you think he should have been trying to lynch his partners?

The reason you weren’t lynched was mainly because there were so many other, easier targets floating around (FakeGod, Furc).

Also Rajr

– you’ve never bothered to answer a number of questions or requests so I’d like you to do so in your next post. I’m organizing them right here for you so you have no excuses –

But please, explain how questioning your stated reasons for your vote is scummy.

Again, as I expressed above, explain how the interactions between Kats and I are scummy.

– Specifically the first 6 posts of the game.

Untrod

–

MoI and charter reacted pretty null or townish to the accusations, but LMP's continuing to call my "list" is really weird.

I’m going to summarize the relevant parts of your ISO based on your explanation –

ISO 0 – Random vote for LMP
ISO 1 – Pointless list
ISO 3 – Mindless bandwagonning
ISO 4 – States that LMP is likely scum for his RVS vote
ISO 6 – Votes Chater for scum-wagonning
ISO 8 – Votes LMP for tunneling his list. States the Charter is Town to Null for his reaction to the list.

I’d like you to elaborate on 117.

I’d like you to explain what posts of Charter’s between 42 (ISO 6) and 117 (ISO 8) made you decide he wasn’t scummy bandwagoning as you stated in 42 when you voted for him.

Please explain how both Charter’s and my reactions to your list are ‘Town to Null’ when best I can determine we had diametrically opposed positions.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh, the reason I couldn't find what you were getting your panties in a bunch over was because you're wrong, and being quite rude about it. LMP didn't agree with you about UT. So, you're still scum, you still have no crap case to throw at anyone new, and still need to be swinging.

Oh, the irony.

I’m being quite rude about it? Are you delicate sensibilities hurt? Please explain how anything I’ve said has been out of line.

The rest of this is pure rhetoric. Continue to ignore the rest of the game, that’s obv-Pro Town behavior.

also love your scum logic of "respond to my invalid points or you must be scum!"

Bzzzt. Pressing you to actually answer questions isn’t scum logic.

Alright, I'm game.

Unvote
Vote: MOI

L-1. Claim.

Until someone actually presents a willingness to hammer, no. Putting me at L-1 simply to do so and get a claim is tech.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Someone be willing to hammer. The unwillingness to claim is hilarious. I am sure if I go and look through my recent games with MOI I can find some with him asking for claims at L-1.

Find one where I put someone at L-1 and asked to claim with no other support of a lynch. Please do so.

Otherwise this is crap.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@LMP

– Where’s that completed game evidence that shows I’ve asked for someone to claim immediately after putting them at L-1? Were you just blowing smoke to fluff up your ‘position’?

Sorry guys, in the midst of finishing my last exam, will catch-up today and post soon (given that it seems we're at L-1 on someone).

Town Peanut that I saw from the abandoned Prison Mafia was certainly not a lurker.
Your ISO is an RVS vote (for LMP), two ‘I’ll catch-up posts’ and a single content post where you focus exclusively on people suspicious of UT.

I’m also interested in the fact that the other uber-lurker so far (bv310) has his vote parked on Peanut. Potential storing his vote in a safe place?

@KMD

– Why is your vote still parked on Haschel? Has your personal frustration with his ‘mysterious’ play moved him from Town to scum? If not why not put your vote on someone you actually think is scum?

His reasons for voting Untrod are fabricated but designed to look legit. Fundamental scum play.

Prove it is fabricated.

Untrod, stupid list aside, specifically called LMP’s behavior scummy but then when he jumped off my wagon voted for you as opposed to LMP. That looks like ‘fundamental’ scum ‘FOS partner, vote another play’ to me.

I'd prefer if he gets hammered without claiming. That'd show him.

Well your behavior shows me that you are either scum or willing to play in a stupidly Anti-Town manner.

Avoiding commenting in an appreciable way on anyone but me? Check?
Comment above? Check
Rhetoric galore? Check.

yes it was legit for him to try to lynch me, but he was saying that it was legit for me to be lynched even if he wasnt scum.
and no i wont be answering any other questions that i havnt answered already. if you really are at L-1 you are in no position of giving me ultimatums and i feel most of the attacks are scum driven.

He was saying scummy play leads to being lynched, regardless of whether you are Town or scum. Don’t twist the words to make yourself look better.

Also, again, how does the Harry Potter game have any bearing on what KMD thinks for your play here?

How again does being at L-1 make not answering my questions Pro-Town again? If you were Town you shouldn’t be so worried about answering inquiries into your behavior.

UNVOTE: Untrod
VOTE: Rajr

I’ve held off moving from Untrod as I still don’t haven’t seen anything form him that makes sense as to his Vote for Charter over LMP. But your refusal to answer questions and general play warrant additional pressure.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Nope. The small amount of mafia time I've had has been used getting replacements for my game and catching up in the ones I've missed. I haven't forgotten it, and I will be looking. I fully admit that I may be wrong, but having played with you ALOT recently, I'm pretty sure I'll find a game where you ask for a claim at L-1.

You need to find a game where someone is at L-2 and I vote for them and immediately ask for a claim. Otherwise your point is invalid.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No. Prove it isn't, I've already explained why I think it is.

I don't get it. I'm scummy for saying I'd prefer if you don't claim, but Talitha says the same thing and she doesn't get any mention? Isn't the same thing you were accusing me of, not applying logic consistently? So that makes you scum, right? Ok.

And please, in the past many games I've been in I've tried to get people lynched without claiming and not once has it been bad for town.

I've already laid out quite clearly why it isn't fabricated. You haven't explained how my suspicion isn't valid. Thus the crux of your 'suggestion' needs to be proven. Which is why I requested you do so.

There is a difference between your and Tal's positions. Yours is childish 'That'll teach him' rhetoric. Tal suggested she would lynch regardless of a claim if she thought I was scummy but has said she's prefer other players. I also note that you ignore the portion where I said 'scummy OR stupidly Anti-Town'. Great move ignoring part of the statement in an effort to twist it in a way you think you can use.

Prove your last statement - show me at least two games where you've pushed for non-claim hammering and it has worked out well.

[MagnaofIllusion]

people are requested to claim at -2 sometimes to avoid "accidental hammers". so asking for a claim is valid at L-1.

Your opinion is different than mine. I don’t see the playerlist in this game having any player who can get away with saying ‘Oops I didn’t know it was a Hammer’.

and im with charter, if MoI thinks he can just continually attack me and thinks that will going to change votes then he should get lynched.

Um, what? Asking you to justify statements that you have made is what I should be doing. Are you just begging for my lynch here because the pressure is mounting on you?

MoI is very defensive of too many players in my book.

Are you saying I shouldn’t defend myself against crap posts and votes? That’s horrible. Over half the players on my wagon haven’t provided any substantive reasoning for their votes.

i was town in the last game. and i think im playing very similar, so i said that kmd and MoI should have realized it.
when i said it i was directing it to kmd who made a complete bull shit list and named me as scum.

Sorry, that’s a stupid argument. I’m not going to assume you are Town based on one partial game (I replaced in, remember) of direct experience.

Your play here is reactionary. You voted for me when I questioned the validity of your ‘scum-tells’ on Katsuki. You refuse to elaborate on why things you state are scummy are scum-motivated.

note MoI responds first with relative decent reaction that he only played with me once so how could he tell any difference. BUT it seams like they discount the whole previous game here. my play style is a little different than most and not trying to learn how to read my playstyle is a failure on their part which could hurt the town.

Sorry, if you play in a scummy and anti-Town manner I’m not going to ‘learn to read’ it. That’s a VI Cop-out and an excuse to ‘let you off the hook’ when you are scum.

Furthermore if you are going to lean on meta why aren’t you providing other games as evidence? Do you have scum games that support your playstyle is identifiable when Town versus Scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Before I forget

–

Bv stop avoiding the thread

. You’ve made 18 posts since Friday when you posted your ‘catching-up later’ post. At least 8 of those were in other games. So you don't have an lee-way to say you were making Mish-Mash or General Discussion short posts and didn't have time to read this thread. It's barely 7 pages long for god sakes.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI, re: claiming at L-1, I think it's in the town's best interest to do so generally. And if you were a town-PR, you most likely would of by now, so, in some sense, the point it moot for me, your claim wouldn't change the dynamics of the vote IMO.

Don’t make assumptions Peanut. Those are dangerous for Town. If you are scum feel free, though.

As Untrod quite properly points out there are no deadlines for this game. So there is no need to rush any processes including claims. It isn’t in Town’s interest to be asking for premature claims as LMP did when there is no threat of losing a lynch to a deadline claim. Claims should ONLY be made, based on wagons, when the full force required to lynch is mustered (ie someone is voted to L-1 and someone specifically indicates they are willing to hammer).

although he continues to overanalyze RVS in light of many other things going on,

Two questions –

1. Are you suggesting RVS is a distinct, separate part of the game where scum-motivations can’t be found and scum mistakes can’t made?
2. What exactly am I not commenting on in the process of overanalyzing RVS?

[MagnaofIllusion]

The amount of players doing nothing of importance in the thread is astonishing. I understand the holidays are here but seriously …

Bv310

continues to ignore the thread while being active on site. If people don't support a Rajr lynch I'd certainly support bv as lurker scum at this juncure.

Maclock

pretty much has ignored anything but me. If I was paranoid I’d say he is a lyncher but setting a lyncher on a Town player when there are already 4 scum to start with doesn’t seem likely.

I have some end of term things to wrap up (final project today, grading some finals tomorrow) that's preventing me from digging too deep on most people, so I expect to be more comprehensive Wednesday-ish.

Wednesday the 15th , when you first promised your comprehensive post, was a week ago. You are long overdue for actual content.

@Kats

– Any reason in your ISO contains all sorts of suggestions that LMP is scum but you refuse to actually vote for him?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'd comment on recent posts but there really haven't been any ...

MOD - I'll be V/LA from today until Jan 1 due to the holidays. I will be posting in that time frame but it will be erratic and heavily dependant on wireless access away from home.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from my Holiday time crunch –

Bv’s actual first content post was whelming.

@bv

– What do you think of Rajr?

OK, I'm going to soften my crusade against Magna for the moment. My reason for thinking that he might be more likely to be scum has to do with meta, and I'm not going to discuss what exactly it was right now. That's because I feel that I can get more definitive info depending on whether or not he does a certain thing in the future, and I don't want to tip what that is just yet. I do think that there's enough there to keep my vote on him for now.

Tired of being called out for pushing a lynch with no reason?

Seriously the whole “I have Meta evidence, I can’t share it so I don’t tip him, trust me it is there” is comical.

You have nothing. You’ve been called to provide something (really even anything) and failed repeatedly to do it.

Sad. That's all I can say. I'd say it was outright scummy except I've seen you play as scum and would expected better than what you are giving.

tally's analysis of me is a little too simplified of me.
the only reason why i am talking about how i appear to everyone else is because a couple of pages into the game i am put on a scum list for no reason. i was just pointing out that since that player has played with me before there was no reason for explanation for me to be on that list since the only thing ive done so far was typical raj play.

I love this, in a ‘Look at me I’m scummily inconsistent’ way. You refuse to scum-hunt and just defend yourself because you are on a list for ‘no reason’. Yet you call me ‘too defensive’ for questioning the many players on my wagon who have given absolutely no definitive reasons to support their rhetoric attacks.

i strongly dislike the continuous avoiding a claim by MoI and now he goes V/LA. i do no see him as town. a town player should have claim, why allow yourself to be lynched over the holidays?

1. You seem to fail to notice I’ve never been at L-1 with someone willing to hammer me. Which is the standard by which a TOWN player should claim. Do you understand why the site meta standard is to claim as we do?
2. You make my V/LA a point of contention? Scumtastic.
3. I’m clearly not allowing myself to be mislynched. Despite your best efforts to make it seem a forgone conclusion.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Almost forgot this -

ill claim at the next vote but i will find it ironic when someone puts me in that position when you have someone with the same amount of votes who refuses.

So you are happy to claim when not even at L-1? I smell a fake-claim that you just can’t wait to use.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Prod received … tomorrow I start to have more quality time to post …

No, no one's called me out for it really. I'm tired of being able to do nothing other than than pushing your lynch.

Yeah, this is a load of scummy bullshit. You can’t do anything other than claim I am scum with ‘Invisible Meta’ as your only reason? Don’t buy that for a second.

I agree with Untrod's 193

What exactly do you agree with? That BV is bussing scum being called out on it? If so why aren’t you voting for Rajr scum?

Does this tell work, ever?

It’s more reliable that tells based on ‘Invisible Meta’ that doesn’t actually exist.

Magna, Mac's whole meta thing actually oozes with townie goodness. I know the frustration of having reliable tells that I can't share (see my town read on BV in Big Brother Mafia because of something Saber had said/done in other game(s) before BV replaced him).

But you are trying to equate Mac’s refusal to source his ‘meta’ with ongoing games. That’s impossible.

1. We are in no other active games together period.
2. I am in no games where I have flipped Scum that he could be ‘observing’ any meta tells that he can’t talk about due to site rules.

So his failure to provide backing to his statements isn’t due to site rules … it is simply due to not actually having any backing. Which isn’t chock full of Townie goodness in the least.

Pretty obvious that BV is scum with Magna and that Raj is town. Kmd is probably scum with both of them, as well.

Classic scum-motivated post right here looking for Town cred right here if Raj is indeed Town.

Active lurking scum is obv.

Then he votes LMP saying that he's a better wagon than Raj (which is true) but doesn't say why at all.

Why is LMP a better lynch than Rajr? I looked through your ISO and see not a single instance where you call anything that LMP has done scummy. Your limited interactions consist of asking LMP if his vote on me was real or not.

im uncle leo. VT.

and my wagon reeks of scum. please tomorrow lynch one of the people on my wagon.

Questions for you Rajr –

1. In a game with a four member scum-team how many VT do you expect for Town to actually have? I’m curious because even if we hypothetically make the scum 4 Goons the numbers alone make it pretty Scum sided before roles are introduced.
2. Who is scum on your wagon?

[MagnaofIllusion]

A quick public service announcement -

Hi, my name is Katsuki and I am scum avoiding the thread. Seriously, I'm actively posting in other games but am sitting on my 'getting on a plane' excuse here.

I'll have more to say about the game tonight ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh yeah, add Untrod to that list above.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah, the initial vote was following Mac, but then I gave my own reasons once we got past page two and something had happened.

Yeah, so you didn't look for what-ever poor stretches of logic you could muster to justify Sheep voting a rhetoric push.

[MagnaofIllusion]

BV also voted Raj for no reason.

Is this an argument where you are trying to say that someone else is scummy for doing what most all of the people who wagonned me, but they are somehow not scummy?

Really? Because that is either stupid Town tunnelling on your part or scumtastic.

Magna, what do you think of BV and UT's votes for Raj?

Both are pretty bad votes. Almost as bad as the votes on me were.

Bv – In his ISO 4 he says he thinks the reasoning is thin and you specifically are a better lynch yet votes in ISO 5 simply because Rajr is at L-2.

Untrod – His vote at ISO 11 is only accompanied by the words ‘I’m Sold’, which is apparently in response to posts around that time but is far from clear. The only mention of rajr in his ISO before that was in a quote of KMD.

They both are in my likely scum pool with Rajr, yourself, Maclock, and Katsuki.

Now it is your turn

– Fonz has pretty succinctly pointed out how the majority of the votes on me are terrible. Please comment on those players not yourself making votes for me (Kats and Maclock in particular).

Finally, I’ll take that you didn’t chose to respond to my comment at 233 as tacit agreement with my assertion.

--

Oh he is L1.

Really? You managed to miss the Mod post not 10 posts above yours that clearly showed Rajr at L-1?

You aren’t paying attention and have done zero-scum-hunting.

Have you no response at all other than the ‘oops I forgot this thread’ to my accusation that you were dodging the thread?

--

or maybe remove some votes of an innocent dude.

Is this a pointless AtE or are you talking about someone else?

Along those lines

212 is the worst response to the direct question of who is scum I can recall seeing in a long time. You list everyone on your wagon and rank them. You say 2-3 is the number of scum in that group. Yet you will not single anyone out.

Commit to actual reads. If you are Town you should have no reason not to. Who, specifically, are the 2-3 scum in that group and WHY?

Furthermore why should Tally be the hypothetical Vig target if she isn’t at the top of your ranked scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

and MOI, yes, I was most definately scum-avoiding this thread.
Did you honestly expect to get a meaningful answer out of that useless question (and fake pressuring)?

Unvote, Vote: RAJR

I thought you might try to provide an explanation as to how you 'mystically' forgot this game. You know, since you are uber-active all over the site.

Do you not bookmark the games you are in?

But instead of responding with reasons you play the sarcastic, useless fool.

Congrats.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Charter

– still waiting for your response to my latest questions.

I'm also highly regretting my rajr hammer right here, MOI was the correct lynch for today.

Let me see.

1. You state you are highly regretting the hammer BEFORE the flip. Why?
2. The only thing that happened between your hammer and this gem is me calling you useless. Which you have been this entire game. Looks pretty clearly like you are attacking me because I’m calling you scum.
3. You know what would be great. Any sort of reason to go along with your vote.

VOTE: Katsuki

I think you were scum avoiding the thread. You’ve done zero scum-hunting this entire game just rode the wave of whatever wagon you could hop on. Add in this latest little bit and I think you deserve votes, pronto.

As for the Magna-meta thing, yes, there was something in his first 3 posts that tipped me. In addition, I did feel that his reaction to getting voted was not particularly pro-town: I felt like rather than defending himself,

he was using whatever he could including misrep-ing to explain the votes on him

, which doesn't feel very pro-town to me.

Emphasis added. I have every right to attack bad or completely unexplained votes for me. I can’t mis-rep reasons for votes when none were given.

As for your meta thing color me unimpressed. You’ve hidden behind the ‘invisible meta’ shield all day long, acting as if it is valid. You can’t have valid meta on me that shows I am scum since I am Town. Until you show your ‘work’ I’m just going to chock it up to a scummy attack by you.

However, meta-wise there's been something his most recent 3 posts that has kind of tipped me the other way. Yes, I'm keeping this intentionally vague. Anyway, if after flips I decide to continue to go after Magna, there will be an articulated case behind it.

Saying you’ve kept it intentionally vague means you know you can’t provide something that will stand up to scrutiny, IMO. Yes, I see how ‘private tells’ being kept private are important if they are valid. But I know for a fact you can’t have a valid tell.

no reason for him to be *that* pissed about a townie lynch if he was actually a town member. I think he's mafia trying to earn towncred by being "mad" about a town lynch.

Where am I ‘overly’ pissed? Here’s a hint … attacking obv-scum Kats for being useless isn’t being pissed about the lynch. I wouldn't have been voting for rajr if I didn't find him scummy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This post told me all I needed to know about MOI alignment, and it also did not give me good vibes about my hammer.

Essentially, this is a post town-MOI would NEVER make. If my gut is 100% in finding non-town fate, I'm sure it's just as accurate with you.

Speaking of 'Fake-hunting',which you love to bandy about. This is a pure example.

What games have you been 100% in finding non-Town Fate? Can you link to any completed? Furthermore how is your claimed ability to read Fate have any bearing on your ability to read me? You've been wrong in the past (Prison Mafia where you called me scum, perhaps LOTR where you called me scum although that may have been you posturing as scum).

But I have been successful in identifying scum Katsuki before, haven't I (LOTR).

My vote looks good.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm here, am going to catch up by tonight.

I eagerly await input from your slot.

--

Going to Vote Kmd because I'm more sure he's scum at this point. Heavy dose of gut in there, but I'll be posting a case on him shortly.

I guess your and my definitions of shortly vary. I eagerly await this case.

--

That said, if you've been thinking it's scummy for so long, why haven't I gotten a vote from you ever?

You are better than this Mac. I only have 1 vote to give and there are plenty of actively scummy players to chase. You can’t honestly think I should only restrict my scum-hunting to the single player I am voting for, correct?

@Mac

– So after you wasted a Day1 doing no scum-hunting your vote for today is lurker-hunting?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m going to agree that this game seems very disconnected. The level of activity is low almost all the way around.

At this point I think Katsuki is just going to lurk about and do no scum-hunting. I think he is a very reasonable lynch today, especially in light of his “HAMMAH … oops I totally regret that” routine.

@MOD can we get prods on Haschel / Tal / Katsuki if they are due?

--

How is specifically referencing post 192 in my vote lurker-hunting?

Because you’ve summarized you grand reason for voting for Bv to a single post he made. Why does that post make him the scummiest player in the game? I’d like some content to back up your vote.

Yes, but in all this time railing against me, you've never voted. Am I not allowed to ask?

You certainly are allowed to ask anything you want in a Mafia game. Just as I am allowed to point out that your question serves no clear scum-hunting motivation.

--

Vote: LMP for all the same reasons I was voting him yesterday.

Can I convince you to join me on a Kats wagon? I understand your motivation here but I think we need to start consolidating pressure.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why to do presume that I have no scum-hunting motivation for asking it? I can give you a very good reason why scum-you might be avoiding voting me: OMGUS will make you look bad, so you're just going to argue and snipe. You're not helping yourself by brushing off what I'm doing as not scum-hunting.

If I was worried about OMGUS would I have voted immediately today for Katsuki? Nope. Because OMGUS is an over-used buzzword bingo phrase, not a viable scum-tell IMO. If I thought you were the scummiest player in the game at any juncture I’d vote for you regardless of your vote on me. So far you’ve been out-shadowed by others.

Which is exactly why I don’t think that post had any scum-hunting intent at all.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Let me repeat: Unrelenting pressure was necessary.

Unrelenting pressure with no reasoning? I’d accuse you of trying to copy Jack or Fate or one of the other chuckleheads who have made that a ‘style’ but I get the sense you really believe whatever it is you think you have.

--

No time to comment today sorry guys.

Yet you had time, just today (not even including since your last post here), to make 9 OTHER game posts (yes, I’m not including Queue or MD or GD or whatever else), one of which was after this.

Dear God Can I Please Get Some More Kats Votes? Please?

It’s like he’s writing the technical manual for how to lurk as scum.

--

@MOI: What are your current feelings on UT?

He’s in my admitted large pool of potential scum. I stand by my comments made early day 1 about his ‘LMP is scummy, vote anyone else’ being textbook scummy play. I also don’t like his comment about bv / Jahudo at 193. His observation is correct but the manner in which he attacks that slot looks to me to be someone who knew that Rajr would flip Town and went out of his way to scum up bv.

UT tries to deflect MOI's opinion of him by buddying him and saying MOI wasn't OMGUSing (newsflash: No one thought he was). Another post that makes me think that UT/MOI team is correct. MOI distances and UT responds by giving MOI a town-read. This is either scum-town or scum-scum interaction.

I love this. Love as in makes me throw-up a little in my mouth. Aside from playing buzzword bingo (deflect, buddying, distancing in rapid succession) you have yet to establish why I must be scum for attacking someone who made a horrible attack on me. I’m entitled to defend myself.

MOI tries here and again here to cast my vote in the worst possible light to then dismiss it. Yes, I originally put it on as a RVS bandwagon vote, but the interactions with UT made it much more awesome, and it was THOSE interactions that made me confirm my vote. Trying to paint the vote as just a "pointless RVS vote" is scummy

Well hmmm. Let me think. Don’t you believe when someone tries to pass a bad attack off on you (as Town) that it makes them scummy? You just said that. Then from my POV you are very scummy for passing of increadibly loose ‘interaction’ tells as a justification for making your RVS vote real. I might add your “I put you at L-1 you have to claim” stunt falls right into that category also.

MOI continues bussing UT.

In this post LMP continues to bus UT.

I somehow missed this before. This is a really interesting observation. So UT's list might actually be completely fabricated on the spot. Taking this into advisement.

Did you miss it because it made your relational arguments looks stupid? If so I want a cookie.

I find this chain of MOI->LMP interesting because Kat isn't the first person to push this, peanut did it earlier (see above), and Kat calls peanut town in this very same post.

I find this ironic. Not for the observation about Kat’s total lack of content, which is accurate, but for the fact that LMP is whining about people linking him with someone as a scum-buddy when that’s exactly what he did with me most of Day 1.

Inconsistency for the loss, Alex …

"No, since I'm not scum. But don't let that pesky little fact get in the way of your rhetoric." On what universe is MOI's alignment a fact to anyone but MOI? Talk about rhetoric...

Pick your poison here LMP. Either both of us are scummy for using rhetoric or neither of us is. You can’t have it both ways. Not that actually called me scummy. You simply infer it in a manner I tend to see from scum. And should I mark you down for pointless rhetoric also for calling yourself Town? In what universe is your alignment a fact to anyone but yourself?

--

If I can’t get any sort of movement on Oh-My-God-Could-It-Be-More-Obvious Scum Katsuki I’ll be moving my vote to a wagon that’s viable and I can support.

Why is he lurking and avoiding my pressure you ask? Let me refer you a QT quote from LOTR Mafia. I tagged him Day 1 as scum and in the QT we get the following -

I did not play good at all first 2/3 of the game. I mean, I could easily push for rewq/gandalf over myself. But I doubt I'll be able to overcome ME if he comes at me. I hate MOI's playstyle.

He knows as scum he doesn't like the odds of going head to head with me. So he lurks / ignores as his only defense.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Katsuki is another fine bet.

I agree. Please vote for him.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOI: Most of that stuff you didn't like was earlier in my reread. My opinion on the UT/MOI business has changed substantially. So I don't really know what you want me to say in regards to this shit you just pointed out

See this makes no sense to me. The facts as I see them –

1. Your posts at 285 and 286 were fabricated in one fell swoop.
2. You had to break them up due to current site technical limits.
3. Your ‘revelation’ at the bottom of 285 was clearly available to you when considering all the ‘MoI is scum’ material you posted at the top of 285.

I don’t see any reason for you to have kept all those statements that I responded in post 285 based on the above facts. If I am incorrect in my fact assumptions please let me know.

In return, I'd like you to comment on the other stuff in my reread that DOESN'T involve you. Specifically peanut/Fonz and Tal.

Neither one (Fonz or Tal) is in my top tier of suspects.

Tal input to the game is whelming but is head and shoulders above any number of others (bv pre-Jahudo, Kats, Untrod).

I found peanut’s play to be fairly suspect yet Fonz’s replace in I found solid (if only because he could have chosen to not fight the then upstream battle in calling my wagon horrible). And as you keep saying yourself I know I am Town.

I can’t see myself supporting a lynch on either as things stand now.

As it stands now my only Town reads are Haschel and KMD.

--

@KMD

– Some input would be fantastic!

@Charter

– This is Day 5 of the grand ‘Waiting for Charter’s epic case on KMD’ watch. Get crackin.

--

LMP and MOI are obvbuddies.

I love how all the MOI vs LMP hate completely dissipated.

This is the best you can do as to content?

Why are we obv-buddies? Explain for once in your Mafia career!
What "MoI vs LMP hate" are you talking about?

It must be tough being scum in a game, being identified as such, and not having any of your ‘crew’ around to support you.

MORE KATS VOTES PLEASE!

[MagnaofIllusion]

KMD theorized that MoI and Katsuki were on there for posting first and second, LMP was on there for being UT's vote, and charter might have been on there for being first in the player list.
You misinterpreted that to mean they were the first 4 non-UT people in the thread, which just isn't true. Even if you meant to say KMD's actual theory looked true, how does that make your theory look any less possible? You thought he would do that kind of thing as scum (IE: call himself scum and bus a buddy). Since UT clearly was not confined to picking the first four people that posted in the game thread, isn't your theory still valid in your eye?

I went back and double checked this myself. Jahudo is correct. KMD’s ISO 7 is where he makes that statement. More scum-points for LMP.

--

@LMP

– Hey look you are at L-1. This is the point where yousay that you should claim despite not having anyone suggest they will hammer, right? I expect to see your claim in your next post.

--

Oh shit wrong game, lemme retype that.

What do you think of MOI and LMP, Charter?

Oh Hi Scumsuki. Despite me banging on a drum loudly and repeatedly calling you scum you don’t respond at all? Not even a thought about your little bit from the LOTR Mafia QT? Going Turtle-Mode is not going to save your scummy ass long-term. I'm going to keep this up until one of us is dead.

If LMP is not the lynch today (which is looking more and more likely) I advise everyone to read the following

-

@Everyone who has suggested they will move their votes to Kats (which is at least Charter, Haschel and Tal) – DO SO NOW! PLEASE! I’LL MAKE COOKIES! WHATEVER IT TAKES!

@Everyone not voting Kats who is not in the above pool – Please read Kats ISO and tell me that’s a Town ISO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is BULLSHIT. For one, it wasn't the first 4 people that posted, it was the first 4 non-UT names in the game, my name was a RVS vote in the game. Secondly, OF COURSE if there is evidence that UT's list was conjured by some method other than using his scum team list it makes my view on his list completely different.

The only evidence there is happens to be inside Untrod’s head. Everything else is speculation, albeit speculation that makes more sense than some obscure scum gambit by UT.

@Mac: Why not? Especially when it comes at no cost?

Because most people crumb is to have evidence to point back to in the event they, as a PR, need to claim. A VT claim is pointless as it doesn’t support anything.

At this point I'd like to hear from everyone else not on LMP's wagon.

- @ Mac, KMD, Charter and Haschel

- Do any of you think LMP is a better lynch than Katsuki? If not please consider putting the pressure to Kats with your votes.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not much time at the moment ...

Just wanted to point out how fascinating (in a hmmm am I seeing scummy Inconsistency?) I am finding that Tal is catching all kinds of hell for her vote of Kats yet Charter has received not a peep.

Both hopped onto the wagon (which I heartily approve of, more people should) with a quick post after having previously expressed suspicion about Kats.

Yet only one is under fire.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok .. one more flip and it’s VC Analysis time. The amount of apathy in this thread is frustrating beyond belief.

--

Charter, that's your case? Really? That's it?

But you don’t bother to say anything about what he did say. You just sluffed it off. It’s comments like this that make me have my eye on you.

Magna, I don't like either the LMP lynch or the Kat lynch.

Please elaborate on why you don’t like a Kats lynch. I’d really like to see your reasoning why his behavior (complete lack of scum-hunting, hammer and immediate distancing before the flip even happened) doesn’t deserve the rope.

--

Are safe claims pretty standard in theme games these days?

Short and accurate answer would be “Yes, but with the occasional exception”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Tally was on Raj, on LMP, and now on Kats. That's a lot of following popular wagons. Though tbh, I have them 2 and 3 in scumminess. (I'm really not sure what to make of Kats, she's probably flying under my radar a bit).

So she’s on wagons that you generally find scummy or null but that is a scum-tell for you? Generally don’t you find players who follow wagons onto players you find scummy to be more likely to Town, if you are?

You have also been consistently voting for LMP. Why don’t you have him as your number 1 on the scumminess scale? Who is your number 1 scum suspect then?

--

@Tal re 359

– What in the heck is that? Kats gets to L-1 and you immediately jump right back to LMP?

--

@Haschel

– You’ve been gone an awfully long time for 362 to be the full extent of your catch-up post. I approve of the vote, however.

--

Ahhhh, Katsuki posting all over the site but avoiding this thread now that he's about to be lynched. Obvscum trying to lurk out of it.

QFT.

--

Katsuki's already was suspected for avoiding the thread, and he responded by saying he doesn't bookmark games, so its possible he's not intentionally avoiding the thread. I don't know how it can be proven one way or the other.

But he definitely should get in here and respond to the wagon on him.

Noted for future relational discussion.

--

/prodded

Black Swan has my nerves in tatters at the moment. Too tired now, stuff probably tomorrow.

Yet you had plenty of time to be posting Saturday and Sunday in many other active games. That you couldn’t take the time to post anything then and now try to excuse your inactivity on a movie is laughable.

LYNCH OBV-SCUM ASAP!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I haven't a clue what you're talking about, I do have LMP as number one, and obviously so.

I’ll elaborate below …

Tally was on Raj, on LMP, and now on Kats. That's a lot of following popular wagons. Though tbh, I have them 2 and 3 in scumminess. (I'm really not sure what to make of Kats, she's probably flying under my radar a bit).

I read this statement as saying the following –

You found ( from the pool of Raj, LMP and Kats ) that Kats is a null read and Raj / LMP were 2 and 3 in terms of scumminess. Thus my questions. If I’m not reading that correctly feel free to correct me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Removing the quote of you asking why people were attacking Tally's vote and not Chamber's takes this completely out of context. You asked a general question about Tally and charter, and in response I explained why Tally's Kat vote seemed scummier than Charter's (she has been pushing popular wagons) but that in fact they (ie, Tally and charter) were my number two and three scummiest, behind LMP who was obviously number one.

That clears that up. Thanks you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I prefer LMP. Especially after the reaction to my unvote. Especially after Macavity voted for Katsuki.

I'm finding it really weird to get jumped on each time I move my vote.

I commented because quite frankly I don’t see that much has changed since your unvote of LMP to move to the Katsuki wagon. You have had time to consider (as you said you would) but nothing significant in regards to LMP has occurred.

--

I can see a scum team of either Katsuki/MoI or Katsuki/Talitha right now.

I think a Katsuki flip makes tomorrow's move obvious. I'm going to lay off LMP for right now, but he's still on my scumdar. I don't think his lynch provides us with as much info as Katsuki's.

So you think I’m scum with Katsuki because I’ve spent all day drumming up support for his wagon instead of hammering LMP when I had the chance?

What obvious move does a Kats scum-flip point to? Be specific.

So you think LMP is scummy but Katsuki will provide us with more ‘information’?

Do you actually think Katsuki is scum?

--

Just saying that LMP and MOI are obvbuddies.

And MOI's case on me thus far has been virtually "Kat is playing like how Kat always plays hence Kat scum".

Hello, let's play this game again. PROVIDE REASONS. Why are LMP and myself obv-buddies?

And nice strawman in the second sentence.

1. My case on you is that you aren’t scum-hunting (as all you do is say Y is Scum but never why), your hammer and subsequent reaction were scumtastic and you’ve tried to lurk out the pressure I built on you while being active in other games.
2. Self-meta defense is useless. Just saying.

The above bolded statement is a gem. He's called me scum this game for not explaining certain stuff, yet comes out with this statement?

Again, I’ve called you scum because you haven’t explained pretty much any of your ‘reads’ this game. You say “X being scum means Y is” with no support. In 393 you even mildly backtrack from your statements, asserting for example you aren’t sure why my post at 258 is scummy.

Pushing the easy lynch is MOI.

Ah, the ‘I’m an easy lynch’ attack.

1. Why are you an easy lynch? Given how difficult it has been to build a wagon on you today I find that statement suspect.
2. I’m pushing you because I think you are scummy. Period.

As for D1, I still think MOI. Though in my mind, MOI and LMP were both pretty much even.

Way to hedge your bets here by saying we were both equally scummy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can we just f'in lynch Obv-scum Kastsuki already?

I'll be back either tonight or in the morning to address comments made by Jahudo and Fonz.

VOTE: Katsuki

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wow... that UT hammer.
Oh hi there nice of you to pop up MOI.

The lulz here. You are accusing UT of being scum for hammering LMP when you could have hammered you instead? So he’s scummy for choosing Town LMP over you? Derp.

Yeah, bad distancing is bad.

You are attempting to call me out for lurking? Really? My last post was YESTERDAY.

--

@Untrod

– You missed many questions posed your way in post 398. Rectify that by answering in your next post.

Here are some more thoughts / questions for you –

I think a Katsuki flip makes tomorrow's move obvious. I'm going to lay off LMP for right now, but he's still on my scumdar. I don't think his lynch provides us with as much info as Katsuki's.

unvote LMP

I'm willing to hammer Katsuki. Want to hear his claim.

Why? You're putting me in the uncomfortable position of kinda wanting to hammer LMP more than Katsuki

So Katsuki was the play when you couldn’t hammer LMP since you were on the wagon. Yet, with no questions or inquiry from you suddenly you reverse 180 degrees and hammer LMP.

What happened to Katsuki making Day 3 more obvious?

Easy to criticize a mislynch after the fact. Which is funny, because you were saying LMP was an equal scum candidate to MoI after your "reread"

vote Katsuki dude is so scum

If so why did you hammer Town LMP instead of Katsuki? Again, bad distancing is bad.

--

I'm feeling conflicted about the Katsuki wagon because with 4 scum still in play in this game, how likely is it that both our two wagonees are scum? Not too likely, IMO. It was weird that after all your pushing Kats for so long, my vote seemed to really start the Kats wagon rolling - charter & Macavity's votes following mine VERY quickly. I'll hold off on interpreting this until someone flips.

Now that LMP has flipped Town I’d like you to elaborate on this.

--

@KMD

– I’d like you to explain how your thought process went from “I disagree with both Wagons” to “I’d hammer LMP to preserve my Town read Kats”. What specifically made your read on LMP more scummy than Katsuki?

--

LMP's accusation that Kat was not scumhunting is simply untrue. He made a scumbuddy case on MoI/LMP based on their actions in thread (both calling UT each other's buddies) and his opinion that MoI was ignoring meta evidence knowledge he had about Katsuki's play.

1. Where is the case you speak of having seen Katsuki make?
2. How is his opinion that I’m ignoring meta-evidence valid at all when the meta we share shows him being tagged as scum by me?

Like people to at least take some notice of the fact that Katsuki is taking positions, scumhunting and making stands, even if his reasoning IS very noobish.

Nice of you to attempt to play the newb card for Kats. He clearly isn’t new.

I’ll dispute your incorrect assertion that he is doing any scum-hunting at all.

--

104 needs to be talked about. MoI mentions a meta read on Katsuki here he has questionable reads but is also town? What are you two hiding about how much you know each other and trust you know? Or is this nothing, links would be good.

Interesting tactic to take on this. In 104 I make two specific comments about Kats

1. That he has never successfully read me as Town when he was Town.
2. That he is either scum or has horrible judgement for calling Peanut’s 85 Obv-town material.

These statements are based on our games history together. We have two completed games together on site. In both he called me scum and I was Town. The first was Prison Mafia (which was Mod abandoned) where he was Town himself. The second was LOTR Mafia where I was Town and he was Isenguard Scum. For the record I positively identified him as such in that game and that was the driving force for his faction killing me N1 (I played as the hydra Memoria Esponia in that game).

Question 1 to you Jahudo

– Why exactly do you state we are ‘hiding’ something about how well we know each other?

240 calls Kat out for missing the mod post. Eh, some people are like that. I’ve seen town do it. MoI also calls him out for not scumhunting. I skimmed a few of Kat’s games and don’t think he’s out of character at that point. Right now this looks null to me, because people scumhunt in different ways and I’m done trying to get someone to play the way I want them to (See: Objection mafia).

If Kats is indeed scum this post has all the hallmarks of soft defense. What games did you skim to determine that Katsuki’s play here was null? How exactly has he been scum-hunting?

398 (as in the post you made yesterday) looks like the first time he adds the tells about Kat’s hammer and reaction being scummy? I don’t see your explanation. The hammer business to me looks worse than it probably is. Town should not be afraid to hammer. This is a common mantra that even scum know. So I think Kat is either scum that didn’t know raj was at L-1 or he is town that didn’t know raj was at L-1.

First off you start this with a misrep. I clearly stated I thought Katsuki’s behavior around the Day 1 hammer was horrible. You further compound this by trying to say Town shouldn’t be afraid to hammer, which is 0% of my issue. I’ll explain exactly why it is scummy so we can be clear.

1. Kats hammers Raj.
2. Before the flip actually happens that shows Raj to be Town he immediately distances from the hammer ‘I already regret it’. Someone who doesn’t know Rajr’s alignment might have regrets after the flip, but not before. Especiallly in a non-deadline environment. We have all the time in the world to get lynches right.

Clear enough for you?

Also can you point out where in any way Kats could not know Raj was at L-1?

At 237 Untrod begs for him to hammer and at 238 Kat specifically states he is aware Raj is at L-1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Jahudo already pointed this out, so I'm not sure why I have to restate this:

Because you have said repeatedly that you find Katsuki to be scum-hunting. Regardless of what Jahudo says I want to see your reasons for thinking so. I thought that was clear by my specific request.

i) Here Kat is saying UT's list is not scummy, and those attacking it are suspicious, esp. LMP

ii) Points out a connection between you and LMP

iii) Points out one of the scummy things about Tally

i) So he is scum-hunting by saying that LMP is scummy for attacking / drawing attention to Untrod’s list, which UT has stated specifically (and I also think was Obv) was a tool to get discussion going. I don’t think it is a non-Townie thought process to question Untrod as LMP did. So I don’t see any significant scum-hunting in this statement.

ii) That’s not scum-hunting but an observation that shows ZERO scum thought process. No explanation as to why both of us suspecting Untrod early on and suspecting the other for differing reasons means we are buddies.

iii) Not a single thing said here about Tally being scummy. Just that she was underwhelming. Thus this is the same exact soft type of stance he accuses Tally of.

iv) Kat elaborates on his 'MOI and LMP are bussing' meme. Like I said, I drew a different conclusion from these interactions: that it looked more like LMP was really trying to get you lynched for basically nothing. But that doesn't mean Katsuki's argument is invalid.

Now note at this point, I'm not saying Katsuki's case is good. There's obviously a ton of confirmation bias etc in there, but that doesn't make it 'not scumhunting.'

So the ‘case’ here is that we both suspect UT and think the other may be linked to him, and his logical conclusion is that LMP and I are bussing each other and not UT? Makes zero sense.

I disagree with your conclusion. His case is deeply flawed. Which is a sign, to me, of faked scum-hunting from scum.

v) Basically, he's saying: asking someone if they're deliberately avoiding the thread, which is pretty much something only scum would do, is not likely to produce any useful reactions, since the only possible answer from anyone is 'no.' Therefore, he's accusing you of fake scumhunting. Which is not entirely unreasonable.

The whole purpose of the question about avoiding the thread is not the answer. It’s to continue to point out that Katsuki continued to duck pressure.

And his accusation that I’m ‘fake-scumhunting’ is reasonable, but my repeated assertions of the same thing about him aren’t valid? When I say he isn’t scum-hunting that’s exactly what I mean … he’s not doing real scum-hunting.

vi) Gut, sure, but gut is scumhunting.

Not if he can’t articulate, after the fact, why it is scummy. He, when questioned about that post later was unable to say ANYTHING about why it was scummy.

If this is true, it makes Kat's argument significantly weaker, though: is the behaviour you're attacking him for here also present in the mod-abandoned town game you mentioned? He also mentioned that you've modded a game he was in: I presume he was town there?

In the game I co-modded he was scum for the record.

In the mod abandoned game he certainly did not lurk out pressure. When he, as a one-shot Vig, came under fire for a bad claim he fought back tooth and nail. A far cry from his behavior here.

Nice strawman. 'His reasoning is noobish' is not 'he's a new player' it's 'his reasoning is on the kind of basic, shallow/omgussy/confirmation bias etc level associated with newer players.' This is the exact argument ABR used in Hell on Earth as scum, incidentally, when I attacked him correctly for attempting to push a wagon on a similar kind of player (had been playing for a while, sucked at mafia, but was trying so not a VI).

I do not equal ABR. Attempting to link his behavior as scum to me is at best flawed and potentially scummy.

Your nit-picking about the specific definition about your meaning of noobish does not a single thing to abate my observation. You are attempting to explain away Katsuki’s behavior as typical of a VI style player. That’s a completely invalid assertion. Katsuki is clearly not a VI. I’m attacking Katsuki for what I feel is scummy behavior, no matter how you and Jahudo have tried to portray said behavior as from a VI style player.

I hate the newbie card more than anyone on m'scum. But people need to learn the difference between justifying scummy behaviour on the grounds that the player is new, and pointing out that a newer/bad player is not, in fact, all that scummy.

Katsuki is not a new player so why you make this grand theory statement is puzzling.

Your interpretation seems to be that he was scum trying to distance himself from his own hammer, that somehow this showed that he knew Raj was town, and was unaware that sharing this would implicate him (now who's calling Kat noobish?) This is a much more convoluted explanation than the first one, and worst, you're acting like it's for sure the case that this is the true reason behind it.

Yes, that’s my intpretation. Mafia is not a game of absolutes. We make our own judgements about players actions and motivations. But you clearly know this.

Is it worse that you are acting like it’s for sure your interpretation is the true reason behind it?

I love the assumption you make that Kats would be unaware that it might implicate him in some players eyes. He might well have been aware yet thought trying to push immediately on me, who was under pressure Day 1, would be a good ploy. At that juncture no-one had been looking significantly at him as a suspect.

Finally a question for you

– now that LMP has flipped Town what does this new information change about your previous assumptions regarding interactions others had with him?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I was town in Magicians Mafia, although MOI died N0, he followed the game.

I normally hate to play the meta card, but skim my completed games if you guys want.
I don't get why MOI keeps pushing LOTR mafia, as I practically claimed scum in that game (and there was a whole discussion in dead QT about my terribad play). If he has reasons to connect my play here with there, I would love to hear it.

No, I didn’t ‘follow the game’. I read the Dead QT and occasionally looked at the thread to see who died or to reference specific posts that cropped up in the Dead QT. Please don’t try to say I carefully read through a Large Themed Game to scum-hunt when I died N0.

I’m pushing LOTR Mafia because I identified you as scum there. Here I see scum play out of you. I bring it up to counter your ‘meta’ evidence stating I’m ignoring your general play.

In summary is your assertion is that I properly saw you as scum in LOTR, observed your scum play as Mod in Castlevania, and when I see what I think is scum-play here I’m ignoring your meta? I just want to be clear.

[MagnaofIllusion]

As I say again, please explain how it connects to this game. If your only reasoning is "I, along with everyone else, indentified you as scum in that game hence I can read you here", then it really isn't evidence at all.

It connects because I read your play as scummy here. The evidence is your play. Strawmanning it to say that LOTR is the only thing I have on you is terribad.

MOI QT #40, #46, #51, #53, #56, #63 all show that you are actively reading and keeping up with the game. If this isn't "following the game", I don't know what is.

Those posts do?

QT 40 is Fate impersonnating me in the QT as I state in 41. Notice the lack of star by the name at 40?
QT 46 is me commenting on Void's suggestion in 45 that Elli is lurking.
QT 51 is me commenting on MPR's statemenat at 50 about who targetted who and a quick glance at the current events in the thread.
QT 56 is me referecing YOUR FLIP, which I stated I looked at, and making further connections via MPR's comments at 50.
QT 63 is a direct question to you after your flip.

What you document here shows I followed along the Dead QT and looked at the thread on occasion. Note that I called you scum in the Dead QT based solely on MPR's action reveal. Thanks for trying, once again, to shift the focus off your scum gameplay.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, those were specific posts by you based on game-related content.
And they were not responses to any dead QT posts.

No, they were. Repeating things over and over don't make them true.

I love how one of the posts highlighted as evidence wasn't even made by me but you ignore that fact.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Kats I offically hate you. I just want you to know that.

Going back to do a re-read.

Mass-claim at this point since it is clearly LYLO?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Far too tired to catch up. I know from skimming that I was asked why I chose LMP over Kat. I had town reads on both and LMP claimed vanilla. Kat had yet to claim. Why force one town read to claim when another has claimed vanilla and it's one or the other.

So in a game with no deadline pressures your solution to two wagons who you both felt were Town was not to push a case on an actual scum candidate?

--

The biggest benefit is probably time: if we can confirm a player or two, that avoids the possibility of a deadline rush after a convincing claim, I suppose. Ah, ambivalence.

I hate to point out the weakness in your statement when it somewhat supports a mass-claim but we have no deadlines so there is no such rush that could happen.

We also need to discuss whether all these re-reads people are doing should be posted before or after claims. If before, then it allows scum to tailor their claims to people's suspicions- if after, to tailor their suspicions to claims. What do people think is the lesser evil?

I’d prefer that the claims be tailored to suspicions not the other way around. Because faking a claim still runs the risk of a counterclaim depending on when it happens. Faking a suspicion doesn’t suffer from that inherent weakness.

--

What kind of mafia game doesn't have scum NKs? I guess its possible given there's a 4 person mafia and scum win conditions are typically "50% and nothing can prevent the same". If that's all the case than a mislynch today doesn't automatically give scum a win. They would need a way to break the deadlock.

Um what? A mislynch today means there are 8 players left – 4 Mafia and 4 Town. Unless there is a Town PR that can kill off the scum at night in then that EXACTLY meets the 50% requirement you mentioned.

Trying to argue that a mislynch today doesn’t likely end the game is scumtastic.

[MagnaofIllusion]

A mislynch today means there are 8 players left – 4 Mafia and 4 Town. Unless there is a Town PR that can kill off the scum at night in then that EXACTLY meets the 50% requirement you mentioned.

Whatever, I still don't want to massclaim. We have great odds of catching scum. If we succeed then we'd still need a few more days to catch the others. I'd rather they didn't know our power roles now in case it is an awesome doc stopping kills.

You don't support a mass-claim. That's your opinion. The fact that you keep trying to fall back to the 'protect the Doc' rational when in a 8-4 set-up their is NO WAY the scum could possibly have a Nightkill considering the make-up of Town we know at this juncture is scummy. I'm serious about this. Even with 4 Goons having normal Nightkills would mean Town would have to be almost exclusively PRs. Yet we've already lynched 3 VTs.

The fact that you tried to play off the loss possibilities of a mislynch tonight is scummy.

The fact that if we mislynch today (and mass claiming would further help improve our 'great' chances, IMO) without mass-claiming means there is NO chance for a mass-claim means using that as an excuse is scummy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Mac, KMD, Charter, Tal, Haschel, and KMD – get your asses in here and play. You can’t all be scum lurking.

--

@Magna: That there isn't yet a deadline doesn't mean there isn't ever going to be one.

I agree, but basing our approach in an environment with no deadline based solely on the possibility that one may appear isn’t efficient, IMO.

--

I don't know how you can be so confident that's its the other way. What I know comes from my background here. A) scum are supposed to have a faction kill in every mafia game and B) I ran an 8:4 setup with scum nightkill. Its supposed to happen like that and it can happen.

I’m confident based on what we actually know to be true (3 dead VTs), what I know about my role, and general common sense.

A. The defining characteristic of Mafia is that scum are the informed minority. That’s it. Nightkills are common but aren’t required for a Mafia game. Look at Mykonian’s recent 9 player game HERE. 7 Town 2 Scum no Nightkill. Still Mafia.
B. Explain about this 8:4 game you ran. Did it have a single Mafia faction or two Mafia factions. With cross-kill possibilities it makes sense for scum in a 8:2:2 game to have Nightkills. Without cross-kill possibilities it doesn’t really make sense at all based on what we know.

If scum have a Nightkill Day 2 is MYLO if the Day 1 lynch is a mislynch and the Night 1 kill successful. Mafiascum site norms generally indicate games shouldn’t likely end on Night 2 if the scum are winning. 3 mislynches is the general standard. So for a cohesive 4 player scum faction to have a Nightkill Town would have to be packed to the gills for site norms to even have a chance to apply. And we know that 3/8 of the Town is Vanilla. Plus my role is far from useful based on what I perceive the set-up to be.

I gave my opinion as an opinion, complete with uncertainties where I looked for the best possible scenario because I'm trying to figure out what I don't know for a fact.

You stated that a mislynch would not necessarily cost the Town the game and that scum had to have some way to break the deadlock. I pointed out how this is completely wrong. Your response? Whatever.

Again .. I think trying to minimize the perception that this is LYLO is scummy. Town absolutely has to be on its toes.

What are you calling scummy in this second one? Using something as an excuse for what? I don't understand you.

I’m saying your statement that we should wait on a Mass-claim is scummy.

This is LYLO. Regardless of our odds of successfully lynching Scum (which on a pure random basis is 4/9, or less than 50%) if we don’t mass-claim and do mislynch the game is over and there is no tomorrow to mass claim in.

Furthermore a mass-claim would very likely increase the random chance lynch above 4/9. So there is no reason to put it off.

Unless of course you are scum without a fake-claim and don’t want to risk botching one.

So your attempt to push mass-claim back is scummy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm not going to keep arguing over this points. Its really distracting from the real job today.

Funny, because I thought it was leading quite nicely to rooting out at least one of the gang of Four.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm kind of embarrassed about pushing two mislynches. Will have to do a careful reread today

We are nearing 48 hours since this post. Your only post since has been to piggyback off my Jahudo comments. Active lurking?

--

Fonz’s 487

is a nice summary in leiu of a full VC Analysis. Quite frankly I don’t see the point in doing one with no dead scum in the mix.

I’d like everyone (other than Fonz, who already has) to give their Top four scum picks so we can proceed with a Mass claim afterwards. Any objections?

From my perspective I think it is impossible for there to be no scum on my wagon. So at least one of Mac, Charter and Fonz has to be scum.

Untrod’s push for Rajr Day 1 followed by his explanation for his hammer Day 2 combined with his general play make him my top pick.

The group of chronic non-content providers this game – Mac, Tal, Haschel. At least one scum has to be in there.

The observation that Tal has been on every successful wagon is a good one.

Jahudo’s recent play has given me a moderate scum-read on him.

Based on what I know and the game as a whole I’d place my likely scum-team as

Untrod, Tal, and two of Jahudo / Mac / Hachel.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I see Jahudo's point against mass-claim, don't agree with it, also don't think it's that scummy.

That fence post must be starting to hurt. Explain again how trying to say that we aren’t in absolute danger of losing this game if we mislynch isn’t scummy with a 5 to 4 current Mafia to Town ratio.

--

MOI, what is it about being on a successful wagon that is scummier than being on your Day 1 wagon, for example?

I never said it was. But since no-one on my wagon was on both the LMP Day 2 and Kats Day 3 it stands to reason that both you and Untrod bear strong scrutiny.

I also note that your posts at 491 and 492 lack your scum reads that are necessary before the Mass claim. Why is that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOI, you distinctly reused Fonz's words "successful wagon" and said it was a good observation. My question therefore remains - what is the word "successful" doing there? Fonz should feel free to answer it also.

I used the phrase that Fonz used because that is what he used. Nothing more nothing less.

Why are you busy arguing the use of a single word (successful) instead of addressing that you have been on every wagon, all of which resulted in a mislynch. I specifically grant you that it is indeed possible for Town to do so. However you behavior Day 2 (hopping around between the wagons which I want to review) leads me to believe, at this stage, you could be scum.

Magna is now trying to turn suspicion on Jahudo for something that on the surface could be scummy, but I'm not particularly buying it this time.

Same question I posed to Mac to you as well – how is Jahudo’s attempt to say that a mislynch doesn’t end the game when we are in a 5 to 4 ration of Town to Scum not scummy?

But in this game does Fonz "attack"? No, instead he gives us a lesson on play saying merely that "people need to learn the difference" rather than calling Magna scum for pushing the lynch on someone Fonz apparently perceives as playing noobishly rather than scummily

I disagree with your conclusion but the point you are making here I agree with. It’s not particularly a Town perspective for Fonz to link me to ABR as scum in another game via my play and then let it disappear as if it never happened.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The following players have shared their suspicions before Mass-claim

–

Fonz, MoI, Jahudo, Mac, Tal and Charter.

The following players need to make their suspicions know in their next post

–

Haschel, Untrod, and KMD.

--

As for the mass-claim I would suggest that once all suspicions are on record that Untrod starts the process and we Popcorn from there. Thoughts?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Did he say that? I don't see that.

I’ll quote it for you below …

What kind of mafia game doesn't have scum NKs?

I guess its possible given there's a 4 person mafia and scum win conditions are typically "50% and nothing can prevent the same". If that's all the case than a mislynch today doesn't automatically give scum a win. They would need a way to break the deadlock.

Bolded for emphasis.

As I’ve said we are in a 5 Town 4 Scum set-up. A mislynch puts us at 4 and 4, which exactly meets the 50% criteria. He then specifically states that a mislynch doesn’t automatically end the game as scum would need a way to break the deadlock which is clearly false. Unless he knows about some Town power that can prevent it from staying at 50% (which I have seen no indiciation of) then I can't see how he can make that argument. And based on the further paragraphs (which you quoted) he is clearly aware we only have 9 players left when he said …

I also think that with 4 of

9

players being in the mafia, we already have pretty good odds of not going down to 50%.

@Mac

– The two paragraphs you did quote were in the same post as the paragraph in question. How did you miss that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

When we massclaim, we need to avoid commenting on anyone's claim until all are in. Agreed?

Agreed 100%.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because your lynch was so close to successful and you alone are in the position of knowing your alignment. Given that you think your wagon is not as important as the "successful" ones is pretty telling about your alignment.

And what would you like me to address about being on the mislynching wagons? I was actually trying to lynch scum. How many scum have YOU lynched in this game.

Emphasis added. Please indicate where I claimed this. I pretty clearly stated in 493 that my wagon was just as valid for looking at opportunistic possible scum since I know I am Town. Yet you ignore the fact that adding my wagon to the mix still does not any more players to the ‘On a Day 1 wagon and LMP Day 2 and Katsuki Day 3’ pool that contains you and Untrod. In effect you went straw-manning. Congrats.

Additionally I’ve obviously lynched no scum, as has NO-ONE. Other than rhetoric what purpose does that statement serve? The fact remains that you and Untrod both have been on all the mislynches. That bears scrutiny.

Player X makes mistaken calculation in endgame, Player Y says Player X is scum for trying to mislead town or lull town into a false sense of security. I have seen this scenario a few times before. Player X is usually town, Player Y usually scum. Also scum at this point can taste victory and know exactly where they are at –

they are less likely to make a genuine mistake than town, and why would they intentionally falsify the situation when it can so easily be refuted?

1. Is your defense that Jahudo made a math mistake in not knowing that 9 minus 1 equals 8, which is double 4? If so that’s absurd. As I have pointed out he clearly knew there were 9 remaining players in the game, as evidenced in the post I’ve been attacking. I don’t think it credible at all that Jahudo somehow couldn’t do that simple math. He’s not stupid.
2. Please explain how his response to my original accusation of ‘Whatever’ indicates he made a math error.
3. Links to the scenarios you are referencing. Especially ones that would be actually relevant to the game itself (ie me pushing a math error at LYLO as scummy when I am scum or Jahudo making a mistake at LYLO as Town)
4. Please explain how your bolded assertion that Town are more likely than Scum to make errors is valid. Do you have evidence of that or is it just your opinion?

[MagnaofIllusion]

The "4 out of 9" statement was directed at the 4 or 5 non-mafia that will not be lynched today. For them it IS a 50% chance. Its only a different number for 1 townie, in the scenario where they are lynched. But they already know they are town so the statistic wouldn't apply anyway.

I think you are misunderstanding my point. I'm not trying to argue that you use of 4 of 9 in calculating percentages. I'm simply stating that it was clear when you made the initial 'a mislynch doesn't cost us the game' statement that you knew there were only 9 players left.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Popping in to say I'll likely have little access this weekend. Consider me V/LA til Monday.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA. Waiting for my turn in Popcorn process before discussing open items and claims.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna is the last one yet to claim, so he's next.

I was going to ask Untrod and Haschel to provide some clarification about their claims, but given that we have a 1 to 1 situation I’m not going to bother.

I am Joe Davola, Watcher. As a crazy ass stalker I’m very adept at keeping my eye on people. My ability name is

REDACTED DUE TO KDUB’S WARNING

.

My breadcrumb revolving around my role, emphasis added –

I must be

Crazy

to be seeing this.

Watch

me flip out right here.

Day 1 I chose to watch LMP. If he was Town he’d be a likely target IMO. I sent in my choice in the immediately upon getting my role PM so it was active all Day long.

My breadcrumb for this watch was –

I’m watching you closely Mr. Lannister … but not as closely as LMP.

Someone actually commented on this when I originally made it. I forget who it was.

Day 2 I chose to watch KMD. He was a strong Town read for me so I wanted to be hopefully catch a Scum action or NK on him. I also asked the Mod if my ability would actually see a Nightkill. His response was phrased in such a way that at this point I began to seriously doubt scum would have a Nightkill.

My breadcrumb for Day 2 was, emphasis added –

But you don’t bother to say anything about what he did say. You just sluffed it off. It’s comments like this that

make me have my eye on you.

Day 3 I chose to watch Charter. Given there were no Nightkills I thought he might be an investigation target and I might be able to confirm to another Town player if it came to that. At this stage I was thinking there were no other active abilities and I was pointless wasting my time actually doing watches. I stopped breadcrumbing.

Day 4 I chose to watch Fonz. For similar reasons to Charter Day 3.

--

Now that the mass claim is done I’m pretty much going to vote for Haschel. Even without the counterclaim (which makes more sense from a flavour standpoint) he claimed to have checked LMP Day 1 based on the list he provided. I received no information that anyone used an ability on LMP.

Before we string him up I’d like to confirm that Untrod and Jahudo have active abilities and get some other information out in the open.

@EVERYONE – PLEASE DO NOT VOTE FOR HASCHEL UNTIL WE GET SOME THINGS PREPARED FOR DAY 5.

@Untrod and Jahudo

– Please each of you target Fonz with your ability (either in Untrod’s case). That should make me able to confirm you acted on Fonz.

@Mac

– Now is the time for you to put whatever ‘meta’ you were talking about Day 1 out on the table.

--

Other comments based on previous statements made before the mass-claim –

Again Magna, you are conveniently twisting the facts for your own scummy purposes. Please explain what is scummier about being on LMP TOWN (Day 2) and Katsuki TOWN (Day 3) than being on Katsuki TOWN (Day 2) and Katsuki TOWN (Day 3). BOTH are town wagons for day 2 and 3. And yet UT and I somehow bear more scrutiny than say, uh, YOU. WHY? Because they were successful?

It’s clearly not twisting. Please stop throwing Wiki-tells at me in hopes it will make your argument seem stronger.

It’s worse to be on two separate Town Wagons that resulted in lynches (LMP and Kats) than being on Kats both days for obvious reasons. That you are asking me shows me how desperate you are.

1. It’s much more believeable that someone had a scum-read on Kats Day 2 and Day 3 and pushed it both days as Town than someone who flipped back and forth between both wagons on Day 2 and was on both wagons Day 2 and Day 3 that resulted in mislynches as Town.
2. Yes, again, you bear more scrutiny (as does UT) for being on THREE successful mislynches. Any WIFOM arguments that “Scum wouldn’t do that” are summarily noted. In a game with no Scum automatic Nightkill (if anything that they might get a kill if one of the gang of 4 is lynched) wagonning mislynches is much more important for scum.

As for the Jahudo thing, it is my opinion based on my experience. Asking me to spend my time gathering evidence and links is only worthwhile if there is a likelihood Jahudo may be lynched because of thius. So far I think you're the only one who finds it overly susoicious.

If you aren’t willing to support your opinion with demonstrated examples of such behavior when saying “Scum are much more likely to do this than Town” then your opinion isn’t really worth much beyond the credibility you have already built. Which at this point is very small.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You are allowed to post ability names.

Ok, my ability name is

Sic Semper Tyrannis

, which is a phrase I believe Joe uses.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Now, I know that you've breadcrumbed your fake-claim before as scum, and specifically breadcrumbed a vanilla fake-claim. See ACoK.

Funny story about that. Go back and look at that breadcrumb again. I wasn’t breadcrumbing VT I was breadcrumbing Limited Bulletproof

When CMAR flipped 2 shot Bulletproof Day 1 that blew my fake-claim of a 1-shot Bulletproof out of the water. So when it came time for me to claim I shortened the ‘breadcrumb’ to just say Hodor instead of Hodor LIM BP. Had anyone bothered to actually look at the crumb instead of taking me at my word in the claim I might have been busted.

There is never any reason to breadcrumb a Vanilla role.

Fonz, I pretty much agree with you. I'm thinking there's a solid chance that Jahudo-scum saw his scum-buddy Haschel floundering and decided to try to counter-claim to get himself semi-confirmed.

This is exactly why I wanted to be able to confirm Jahudo had some ability by targeting Fonz. I very much do not like the fact that he ‘forgot’ he was targeting someone and it just happens to be Untrod.

@UNTROD – PLEASE DO NOT POST IN THREAD THAT YOU HAVE USED YOUR ABILITY ON FONZ. I WANT JAHUDO TO BE ABLE TO STATE IT FIRST AFTER HE RECEIVES THE PM FROM THE MOD. THANK YOU.

--

Role Claim Summary

Known flips –

Rajr, LMP and Katsuki – VT (3)

Claimed roles (in order of Popcorn, which may be important) –

Untrod – Jackie Chiles, Vote Manipulator
Mac – Lloyd Braud, VT
Tal -Sue Ellen Mischke, VT
Fonz – David Puddy, VT
Charter – Morty Seinfeld, Neighborizer
Kmd4390 – Estelle Costanza, VT
Haschel – Newman, Weak Cop
Jahudo – Newman, Weak Tracker
MoI – Joe Davola, Watcher

--

Things I am noticing from the Mass-claims –

Untrod specifically said he was a Town Vote Manipulator. My role did not say Town Watcher. This bears consideration down the line.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Haschel care to comment on how you claim of scanning LMP Day 1 (based on your list order) is bullshit since I was watching him all day long?

Nice to see how reponsive and active you are in thread now that you are under fire.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok UT is targeting someone.

@UT - Please confirm or deny that you sent a PM to KDub prior to the time-stamp of Jahudo's post.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Magna: When you said you received no information on anyone targeting LMP, did you get a PM from the mod or not? Because the way my role works I wouldn't know if I was roleblocked or not.

No PM from the Mod at all, except PMs confirming that he has received my action and answering related questions.

And I have received nothing today regarding anyone targetting Fonz.

That doesn't make me happy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think Fonz should try to cast a vote.

I think he should do so and then have the Mod confirm.

Because if your ability is proven it more or less assures me that I've probably been roleblocked every day.

Which makes my information on Haschel useless.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So, all Day 1, I was pushing you towards a claim. Yes, I was role-fishing. I would have accepted Davola, Vig, but would have kept my eye out for SK leanings. If you claimed Davola, Vanilla or any name other than Davola, I probably would be back on you.

The more I review this the more I dislike it.

1. Town thought process, regardless of Meta (which isn’t really valid as I’ve properly breadcrumbed in MANY games as Town when a PR), would be to observe behavior that might align with a Serial Killer role not to try to force a Vig claim immediately Day 1. Also, the fact that you specifically picked up on my breadcrumb also makes me wary given I apparently have been blocked at least once (if Haschel is Town) and maybe more often. Scum with no Nightkill would certainly worry about a Vig.

--

Fonz is trying to find a reason to vote haschel and is voting untrod. Obvjahudobuddy.

1. You do understand that he was using that vote to test Untrod’s ability to manipulate his vote total, correct?
2. You do understand that by voting Untrod and not either Jahudo or Haschel he helps remove the possibility of a quick-lynch by scum, right?

Preview edit shows this has been addressed.

--

As for your last comment, my activity level is cyclical, and apparently right now I'm at the top of the cycle. You of all the players in here should know this.

Yes I am aware you have been a less than motivated poster in the past (Secret Invasion Mafia). It is one of the reasons I’ve not hammered your lurky behavior so far. But I am troubled because your lack of contribution in that game had a significant impact, IMO, in helping scum win (via not being around to help prevent bad deadline mislynchs of Town led by scum). If you are Town this game your low activity again hasn’t really helped you work towards your Win Condition.

--

@Magna: When you said you received no information on anyone targeting LMP, did you get a PM from the mod or not? Because the way my role works I wouldn't know if I was roleblocked or not.

Please clear up for me something about your role Jahudo. Is it correct that the only day you received a PM from Mod in regards to your ability is today seeing Untrod?

--

@Untrod

– Why specifically did you choose to use the Minus vote version of your Power on Fonz? He wasn’t one of your suspicions in ISO 29 thus I assume you have a Town read on him.

--

On the 1 versus 1 situation –

We know that one of either Haschel or Jahudo MUST be scum. There is not way both are Town. So lynching them at worst is a 50/50 shot, and perhaps greater if they are gambitting scum (which I doubt and really isn’t relative to today).

As for the flavor of each claim I am in a Toss-up. Nemesis, with Haschel, fits very well into the context of Jerry and Newman as arch-enemies. Mail Route, with Jahudo, makes flavor sense as well since Newman is a mailman and demonstrated in the series that he has no qualms about bending rules to achieve his goals.

Looking at the claimed roles –

If we assume the only Non-Town PR claim is either Jahudo or Haschel we have the following set-up.

1 Neighborizor (1 shot?)
1 Vote Manipulator
1 Watcher
1 Weak Cop or 1 Weak Tracker
4 VT

against

4 Scum.

Is this balanced from either standpoint (Town Cop or Town Tracker)? I’m not inclined to try to calculate any EV for the setup.

Scum have a pretty strong numerical base (33% at the start of the game).
Scum ostensibly have no Nightkill at all or simply one that is only triggered under certain circumstances.
We don’t know whether scum has Daytalk or not.

4 unified scum in a Mini is VERY strong, especially given the win rates for the standard 3 player scum team. Not having a Nightkill, on the other hand weakens the team.

If scum consists of 4 Goons then the mass of Town PRs could have potentially broken the set-up by Mass Claiming Day 1, No lynching while powers are confirmed, and then lynching from the VTs.

I’ll have to think about where I stand on this. And if more than one claimed PR is scum I really have to wrap my head around how balanced that might be.

KMD at 553 has reasons to think 2 is a valid option. See Harry Potter Mafia, specifically the posting in the link. In that game KMD and I were scum partners. I went out of my way to avoid the Mod provided fake-claim for my role (which was Hagrid, a pretty well established character) and counterclaimed Nobody Special’s VT claim of Stan Shunpike. I did so because

A. Nobody Special really had lurked through much of the game and built no Town cred.
B. His claim was on its face bad. It would have made him the only Vanilla the game and he also listed Stan as the driver of the Knight Bus, not the conductor. Of course his claim was 100% correct but was done poorly.
C. Lynching him sealed the game.

Does this sound at all familiar? It is one of the reasons why I’ve immediately backed off voting Haschel immediately (along with the Role-Blocked Watch possibilities).

[MagnaofIllusion]

I had to choose one of my abilities to burn, so I went with that one. If we prove Jahudo/Herchel's ability today by lynching the right player, I will know I can use my doublevote on the confirmed player.

Please explain how either Jahudo or Haschel is confirmed by the other flipping scum. Is it likely both are scum together? No, but it is a possibility that would preclude the other from being confirmed.

--

@Fonz re 581

– The portion you responded to where I discussed balance was meant to be forward thinking. You are correct that it really doesn’t apply to today’s 1 v 1 discussion.

Roleblocker pretty much has to be there if you're genuine, no? If Hasch is truthful, you were RBed day one. If Jahudo is (or even if he's scum with the tracking ability) then you must be blocked right now. Therefore, MOItown implies RB.

I agree that it does 100% imply that a Role-blocker exists. That wasn’t the point of my post. I was trying to weigh whether it made sense from a balance standpoint that 3 of the 4 claimed PRs would be Town when comparing it to 4 Goons. Because given the relative weakness of the Town (Neighborizer doesn’t prove alignment, Watcher is very gimped with no Nightkill to catch and likely only 1 Scum PR (RB), the Vote Manipulator can advantage Scum easily based on the reads, and both the Tracker and Cop claims are Weak versions) if from a balance standpoint 4 Goons make sense as a set-up the presence of a Scum RB in my mind more or less clears the remaining PRs in my mind.

Again … that’s speculation about tomorrow and isn’t really applicable to the 1 v 1.

Worth noting I've never seen a nightless game without scum daytalk.

It’s also worth noting that I was stupid as all get out to question that. There has to be scum Daytalk in the game as there are no Nights.

Yes, my brain did take a vacation on that point.

--

I somewhat agree, but UT also said he was absolutely, definitely voting for Haschel because of it. If UT and Haschel are both town that's an opportunity scum surely couldn't resist.

This is a very good point.

--

Now, I can't really deny that this looks bad, in light of no kills so far. However, a few points in rebuttal. First, were I scum, would I have at least somewhat tried to protect you with

This is a WIFOM argument. As Town or scum you would want to portray yourself as Pro-Town through your defined stances. Making sure someone isn’t lynched before claiming is Pro Town. Especially

And I know you well enough to know you certainly can put on a Pro-Town front as scum. Impin’ Ain’t Easy, afterall.

Third, if I'm scum and know that we've got a RB, don't I keep my breadcrumb read on you entirely under my hat and just recommend the block on you?

Except pressing said Meta read (which after the fact I’m going to say again was PURE crap) and getting enough sheep Scum-Mac might have been able to actually force a claim to be assured that I was the Vig they feared. Had you actually gotten my proper claim perhaps the Block is used look to block some other role like Cop.

I get your issue, but please make sure to examine my actions from the me-town perspective to see that my play Day 1 was consistent with the knowledge that a VT had on Day 1.

My problem is that I don’t see it as a very Townie thought process that as a VT you saw I was familiar with Seinfeld flavor, saw my breadcrumb, and thought the best course of action was to gambit about having a scum read to out a potential Vig.

I would like to take this time to remind people as we deliberate that Jahudo replaced bv.

Also Fonz replaced peanutman. Is there a specific reason you see that you needed to reiterate knowledge available in the first post?

[MagnaofIllusion]

General Thoughts

–

Untrod’s proof of his role guarantees he’s not the Roleblocker as he couldn’t have RBed me and de-voted Fonz in the same day. Even if he is scum (which now, based on claims, I am leaning against) he

SHOULD NOT

be the lynch tomorrow assuming we get there. And the game doesn’t end today.

I’m close to making my decision on which way to vote today.

--

@Jahudo

– You seem to have missed the following question by me –

Please clear up for me something about your role Jahudo. Is it correct that the only day you received a PM from Mod in regards to your ability is today seeing Untrod?

--

Or I could have just let it pass right by without comment, and doing so wouldn't have made me look any more or less pro-town.

That’s true, but doesn’t really argue against my point. Your ‘Hidden Meta’ push already would have placed you under suspicion had I gotten lynched without a claim since I would have flipped Town. So letting that happen isn’t in Scum-Mac’s best interests. Thus making sure I claim would be of paramount interest. You could always explain this 'Meta' after the claim if you wanted to push my lynch then be you Town or scum. Plus as demonstrated above it would also be a move designed to help you build a little Town cred.

We're pretty much going round and round on this. My concerns, which aren't going away, is that I don't see the Town thought process as a VT to push to out a player who you suspect is a Vig (or perhaps a SK) Day 1 before we knew Scum didn't have a NK.

Because Jahudo is one of the two people who is up for getting lynched today, and I want to make sure that it doesn't get lost in the shuffle that he used to be bv, and bv was pretty scummy in his short time with us.

Please indulge me and elaborate on the bolded portion. I’d like, in your own words (and quoting is fine if you already made a strong case, although I think I would remember it), for you to show why BV was scummy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In my experience, when a claim revolves around a dead or scum roleblocker happening to have conveniently roleblocked a specific person on a given day, it's usually a lie. Actually, this is kinda important. Magna, when did you put in your watch on D1?

I’m not sure where you are going here but I thought I was clear about this when I posted my claim –

I sent in my choice in the immediately upon getting my role PM so it was active all Day long.

--

Unless Jahudo made an extremely good bluff, he has a tracker ability.

Well there are about four situations that could have occurred.

1. He’s a Town Tracker.
2. He’s a Scum Tracker
3. He’s not a Tracker but made a very good bluff.
4. He’s not a Tracker but you are scum together so he knew it was safe to claim.

Do I think 3 or 4 are likely? Not really but I’m not ruling anything out since we are at LYLO and a single false move spells Game Over.

--

KMD has outed himself as lazy scum coasting for an easy win. He's played this way the whole game. If

we lynch HC today and if flips town

, KMD is the most obvious buddy. Not even pretending to consider situations.

Emphasis added. I’d like you to explain exactly what you are intending to say here.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think I’ve mulled over my thoughts on Jahudo and Haschel enough. Time to make my vote.

Thoughts on the claims themselves – both flavor and role:

From a flavor standpoint both seem to fit well. Newman being Jerry’s ‘nemesis’ is an intregal part of his character. Newman also being a Mailman is also very often referenced in the series and is the basis for several episodes plot points.

From a role standpoint, on the other hand, I find Haschel’s claim to be overall more convincing than Jahudo.

Haschel is a Cop that can only find 1 of 4 scum. I can see the limited Town usefulness of that role.

Jahudo is a Tracker who basically is a limited PR cop. Given we have VERY limited Scum theorized PRs (Roleblocker) and no Nightkills I don’t see the usefulness of his role to Town at all. It would, however, be a useful Scum PR hunting tool.

Thoughts on the timing of the claims –

The following is all presented from my perspective, so attacking it on the basis that no-one else knows I am Town will not be useful in convincing me I’m incorrect.

I don’t relastically see Haschel making a fake-Newman as Cop claim in the position he did. Even if scum did know I was Crazy Joe and thus only had one other player (Jahudo) who could counterclaim I don’t see much motivation to try to bolster a limited Cop fake-claim by tacking on a fake-name claim. From my perspective Scum have some access to fake-claims and going of personal experience working with Kdub as a Co-Mod I don’t think Kdub would hang them out to dry with less fake-claims than there are scum.

Had he wanted to make a fake-cop claim for Town cred he would have had plenty of time to concoct a Cop claim around whatever fake-claim he had (not hard in the Seinfeld Universe, IMO).

I also don’t see any scum motivation in trying to set himself up in a potential 1 versus 1. Scum would be better served keeping the lynch pool as wide a possible.

Jahudo’s claim on the other hand has all the hallmarks of a gambit to win the game. I’ve already provide the link to Harry Potter Mafia where I did a very similar gambit as scum. Also examine the manner in which he attacks Haschel’s claim in his ISO 24. I don’t see that as Town oriented.

Thoughts on their other play –

Haschel is playing as I‘ve seen him do before as Town. That’s Null for me. He certainly could be coasting Town or coasting scum.

Jahudo on the other hand has taken stances that I don’t see as reasonable from a Town perspective. He modded the first game I ever played here on MS so I know he’s very sharp, but overal his play don’t align with that in my eyes.

In the end I can’t see myself not voting for Jahudo based on all the above.

VOTE: Jahudo

[MagnaofIllusion]

Good game scum. Not that you really needed to play that well. Town from top to bottom played horribly.

Meh, 2 of 5 in my scum-reads before mass claim isn't impressive.

Haschel consider that your 'Get out of Jail free' pass on lurking. From now on you will be considered scummy for doing so.

[MagnaofIllusion]

kmd and MoI... i played two games in a row and i played the exact same way. hell ive played the exact same way the last 5 years on the site. if you refuse to read people you will continue to lose.

I'll be as charitable as possible here. I played a bad game myself. I make no excuses for that.

But if you've 'played the same way' for 5 years then you need to improve. Because I've seen you in two games and you've played scummy in both.

The ONLY reason I didn't go after you in Harry Potter Mafia is because I knew you were Town (since I was scum) and others played even worse than you.

Its not our job to say "Rajr is playing scummy but he always does, so he's Town". Sorry, that's stupid.

So when deciding who is the 'moron' you probably need to look in the mirror before casting stones.

[MagnaofIllusion]

After reading the Scum QT I have to say the concept that scum had it rough I find a little bit of a stretch.

Given Town only had two useful PRs (mine and Untrods) the presence of a Role-blocker was powerful. Additionally George's ability to take out ANY player at any time which also worked as a bomb is not to be taken lightly.

And don't underestimate the power having 4 scum off the bat provides. The lack of a NK is daunting but Town absolutely needed any sort of flip of scum to really make solid relational tells. Also Day 1 a scum lynch would require 87.5% of the Town's votes with no scum bussing. Getting 87.5% of uniformed majority players to work in a unified manner is a pretty large task.

Not to say Scum didn't do a great job. You did. And Town did everything in its power to help you along, myself included.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Agreed, that's an interesting set-up.