Mini 1096 - Seinfeld Mafia (Game Over)

[Jahudo]

I'm here, am going to catch up by tonight.

[Jahudo]

I've read everything and at the moment my two suspects are LMP and Mac, largely for how they are going about their cases on UT and MoI respectfully.

LynchMePls

– I do not like how he searched for scumpairings before having any individual scum tells, or at least not any that he mentioned early yesterday. He says UT’s list looks like something scum would do when they want to distance a buddy or more in a pile of townies. But that doesn’t explain why UT looks scummy in the first place.

In 57 he says the UT/MoI looks like distancing, but also says he’s less sure about MoI being a scumbuddy which doesn’t make any sense with his distance theory. He didn’t argue that the list looked like distancing. He argued that the UT/MoI votes looked like distancing. I just don’t see the logic here.

He’s most recently said he’s explained why he thinks UT is scum but I still don’t see it anywhere. If its for just making this post:

Katsuki, MoI, LMP and charter are scum. calling it now.

You have failed to explain why town-UT would not say this, or even why sucm-UT would say it under those circumstances.

If its for UT voting a person on that list, you haven’t mentioned why it can’t be coincidence or odds (36% random chance his first vote would be on one of those four people).

So what is it? From what I’ve seen your case looks like circular reasoning by saying a cross-vote could be distancing, and scum distance, so he could be scum. Only scum could get behind that logic.

---------------

MacavityLock

– Its suspicious that he focuses so much of his game on the one player he’s taking a “wait and see” approach to. If you think you have a reliable meta on someone, that’s fine. If that meta depends on keeping your vote on them for pressure/reactions, that is sometimes fine too but will ultimately depend on the meta you have.

But how does any of that prohibit you from talking about other players? Day 1 you were very much on the sidelines about people that got a good amount of attention (raj, LMP and UT to name a few). I believe scum would like to avoid taking stances for as long as possible, while town should look in several places for scum, so this part makes me suspicious of you.

@MacLock: Was MoI’s reaction to getting voted a part of your secret meta tell? Otherwise I don’t know why it took you until 246 to bring it up. Couldn’t it have been used in addition to something you couldn’t say on Day 1?

I'm outta time, I'll have to do some more catchup reads later.

[Jahudo]

MacavityLock

) Unrelenting pressure was necessary. 2) I commented on both raj and UT, and I generally don't give away my town reads early.

1) I guess I'll just have to take your word on it until we know what this is all about.
2) Ehhhh, all I see is you calling raj null in 185, which says nothing, and agreeing with a point UT made about bv in 202, which says little about what you think of him and more about what you thought of bv. However that does make me realize your other suspect was bv, its just still odd that you waited that long to start looking for somebody else given you were not a lurker or flaker.

@MacLock: Was MoI’s reaction to getting voted a part of your secret meta tell? Otherwise I don’t know why it took you until 246 to bring it up. Couldn’t it have been used in addition to something you couldn’t say on Day 1?

No, his reaction to my vote was not part of the meta. It was separate.

Ok, so what does that mean? Were you not looking for a reaction when you voted him? Or was it necessary to keep your analysis to his reaction a secret until later on?

----------

LynchMePls

I think UT is certainly the sort of person to say something like this and be serious.

Saying he's capable of using calling himself scum as scum and saying he would actively do it are two different things. You still haven't made an argument why he would be motivated to do it in this case, unless you have a good meta on him for doing this alot. Because I think its just as likely for his comments to be a joke and not true at all, so its 100% null tell for me. Your insistence that this is a good scum tell is confusing.

The fact that he included "EVERYONE JUMP ON THE LMP WAGON NAO" when I know I'm town is what makes me pretty sure he is scum

Again, why would you jump to this conclusion? Why are you so sure he wasn't making a joke? And I don't know why you need to include the "I know I'm town" part.

[Jahudo]

Did you read anything I just posted? I'm not "so sure", I'm in fact the opposite of that now. Those comments at the top were while I was doing my reread. Read the tl;dr.

I saw your misinterpretation of KMD's comments if that's what you mean, and how you twisted that logic to backtrack from your position.

The first four people to post in the thread were MoI, Katsuki, HC, and raj.
Untrod's joke list was MoI, Katsuki, LMP and charter.

KMD theorized that MoI and Katsuki were on there for posting first and second, LMP was on there for being UT's vote, and charter might have been on there for being first in the player list.
You misinterpreted that to mean they were the first 4 non-UT people in the thread, which just isn't true. Even if you meant to say KMD's actual theory looked true, how does that make your theory look any less possible? You thought he would do that kind of thing as scum (IE: call himself scum and bus a buddy). Since UT clearly was not confined to picking the first four people that posted in the game thread, isn't your theory still valid in your eye?

The answer: you're backtracking scum because you never looked at UT's post like a townie would

Vote: LynchMePls

[Jahudo]

This is BULLSHIT. For one, it wasn't the first 4 people that posted, it was the first 4 non-UT names in the game, my name was a RVS vote in the game. Secondly, OF COURSE if there is evidence that UT's list was conjured by some method other than using his scum team list it makes my view on his list completely different.

Oh so that's what you mean. I see now. So you're thinking is its too much of a coincidence to not be a coincidence? Has UT actually confirmed / denied this yet?

@UT: Have you confirmed / denied this yet?

------------

What's this Katsuki wagon about now? I know he's been vague lately, and pairing LMP and MoI seems premature. His raj hammer didn't raise any flags for what type of player I think he is.

The one thing I notice is that he gives more suspicion for LMP than MoI, but generally says MoI is a better lynch. I cannot follow his logic here.

@Katsuki: Where in 92 do you explain why MoI is scummier than LMP? There are points specific to LMP, and points again both MoI and LMP, but where are the points about just Moi?

@Katsuki again: Can you explain your super secret awesome scumtell in 258?? You didn't say anything specific when you regretted your hammer, when you voted MoI the next day, or when you made that post. So how would a town MoI write that post differently, or what about that post is scum MoI talking?

[Jahudo]

Are safe claims pretty standard in theme games these days?

Not always when you don't know which characters the scum have been assigned, but in this case we do know so in theory the mod would have to give them fake claims to counteract a mass character claim day 1.

The Peterson/Peterman mixup looks like nothing to me.

[Jahudo]

Katsuki's already was suspected for avoiding the thread, and he responded by saying he doesn't bookmark games, so its possible he's not intentionally avoiding the thread. I don't know how it can be proven one way or the other.

But he definitely should get in here and respond to the wagon on him.

[Jahudo]

So you expect someone to have a specific meta on you? That's not really how it works, especially if the person doesn't like metas as a tell, but that's something Mags can answer definitively here.

Ok, so more stuff about scumpairing, really not useful at this point because neither has been proven to be scum on their own.

@Katsuki: Who was more likely to be scum on day 1: LMP or MoI?

[Jahudo]

RE: Katsuki Wagon

The LMP has all the signs of crummy votes, same as yesterday. Fonz is the only one voting LMP who I think is justified in doing so.

Charter, if you still believe this then back it up with your reasoning. I’m about to do the same, but for the Katsuki wagon.

As a foreword, I will say that my vote is on LMP because he’s my top scumpick. After that I do have problems with the Katsuki wagon, but I do not think everyone on it is being scummy for those reasons. LMP is the one who is on that wagon for all the wrong reasons. Magna and Charter are using tells that townies often use but I see different conclusions from them. I don't think they are scum. MacLock could be scum but his defense of my original case in turn decreased my suspicion of him, while HC has just looked short on time and lazy this whole game. I do believe that lack of reasoning by itself is not a good reason to condemn someone, so its hard to call either of them scum for it.

Nor do I think everyone on the LMP wagon are town. I’d like to look into charter’s KMD case some more. When I have more time I want to talk about Tally’s role on the raj wagon which is bothering me now. Fonz is cool though

----------------

(1)

MagnaofIllusion

– 104 needs to be talked about. MoI mentions a meta read on Katsuki here he has questionable reads but is also town? What are you two hiding about how much you know each other and trust you know? Or is this nothing, links would be good.

225 calls out Katsuki for active lurking. That was the first time he did it so it’s a valid thing to talk about. Even his excuse about not using bookmarks doesn’t prove anything so it’s a valid concern to have about him the first day. (however the second time he does it I don’t think it becomes a stronger tell at all)

240 calls Kat out for missing the mod post. Eh, some people are like that. I’ve seen town do it. MoI also calls him out for not scumhunting. I skimmed a few of Kat’s games and don’t think he’s out of character at that point. Right now this looks null to me, because people scumhunt in different ways and I’m done trying to get someone to play the way I want them to (See: Objection mafia).

398 (as in the post you made yesterday) looks like the first time he adds the tells about Kat’s hammer and reaction being scummy? I don’t see your explanation. The hammer business to me looks worse than it probably is. Town should not be afraid to hammer. This is a common mantra that even scum know. So I think Kat is either scum that didn’t know raj was at L-1 or he is town that didn’t know raj was at L-1.

------------

(2)

LynchMePlease

– First calls Katsuki scum in 286 by first trying to find scum pairings that make sense for him. I have no idea what he’s calling scummy in the first link of that post. Not being hard enough on Talitha? That’s a stretch for a townie to start thinking Katsuki and Tally are scum together without a flip first. Claiming that Katsuki calling Peanut town while they both go after MoI and LMP indicates a scum strategy? Another big stretch because those kinds of scenarios are so so common. Everything is not black and white. Not everyone who shares an opinion must be connected. Yet LMP tries to force connections when they favor him. That is why I’m voting him. It’s a very opportunistic tactic that town don’t use to make their cases.

He also infers (I guess) that Katsuki secretly knew raj was at L-1 but decided to vote LMP first anyway. Hard to prove, or even guess what is more likely. At this point LMP is just padding his case with anything he can find, instead of rightly saying this is more null than anything. Or if he really wants to go there, reasoning why this is scummy.

Then LMP criticizes how Katsuki goes after another of his suspects after the lynch. Yet LMP doesn’t explain why that point is bad.

After that vote post, LMP doesn’t say much about Katsuki. No questioning in fact. What he does instead is try and pair people to Katsuki, set up additional lynches. This makes me think he’s not voting Katsuki to get a better read on him, confirm to himself that Kat is scum. Instead it looks like he’s using the pressure on Katsuki and transferring it to other people. Artificially boosting their own spotlight without continuing an investigation on Katsuki. IE: not trying to find scum in Katsuki but trying to make scum out of Tally, Fonz, etc.

----------

(3)

charter

– His only reason for voting was in 309, Katsuki voting for LMP looking like a self-preservation vote. I don’t follow your logic on this one. Katsuki had been calling LMP and MoI scum on day 1 and voted for them. So how does voting them on day 2 when a wagon was forming on him have anything to do with a wagon forming on him?

After you vote Katsuki you label him a scum lurker. I’m not buying the lurking tell here because he was already called out for it day 1. Scum would react to pressure like that by fixing their problem for self-preservation sake. Town would react to it by not caring about how they look to others. So your claim that he is about self-preservation does not work with your claim that he does not care about self-preservation.

------------

(4)

MacavityLock

– Completely dismissive of wagons he doesn’t like while being completely vauge about the wagons he does like. 358 is futhter proof of this. Without a reason for voting Katsuki, I have a hard time believing his read is confident or if he is just trying to prevent a LMP lynch. If he really thinks the LMP wagon is made up, why isn’t he going after the people that are pushing it instead? His words and actions do not align. And he really should have tried to piece through the raj and now LMP wagons to say why he thinks they weren’t/aren’t real cases. I don’t trust his motivations when he’s not trying to do something pro-town like that.

------------

(5)

Haschel Cedricson

– Calls LMP scummier than MoI in 140 for no reason. Calls Katsuki scummier than LMP in 362 for no reason. There’s no pausing to consider the scumminess of LMP so I have a hard time believing his read on LMP at all. This is a bad vote.

------------

This isn't about me calling Katsuki town. (A) Its me explaining why I don't see a case that makes Katsuki look like a good scum bet. (B) Its me also reiterating my LynchMePlease case in how he scumhunts without a town mindset.

[Jahudo]

Kmd and peanut argued back and forth pretty profusely, and IMO Kmd had the better of it. Yet calls Kmd/peanut town/town with no explanation for why. How does Katsuki-town know this isn't town/scum or even scum/scum? This is the sort of statement that looks to come from an informed minority.

I think you made this point up. I see no evidence of Peanut mentioning KMD once, or KMD saying anything more than peanut being scum. Where is the arguing?

Calls Talitha's entrance "VERY underwhelming". Yet, Katsuki does not a) question Talitha to try and get more from Tal, or b) probe Talitha on this matter any further. And, to the best of my recollection, hasn't commented on this again AT ALL.

It looks like an observation to me, not a suspicion. The only question I would have for him on this is what he thinks of Talitha now, but I would not expect him to pressure her if he didn't have enough confidence to give a suspicion.

If you actually believed this point you would have been probing me sooner than today:

-Jahudo/bv slot needs further evaluation.

By your own logic you did a scummy thing!

First appearence of Katsuki's MOI/LMP "SCUMBUDDYZ4LYFE" accusation, despite the fact that MOI and I have NEVER been scum together before, let alone in a game with Katsuki. So how exactly is Katsuki making this determination?

Previous games have nothing to do with that, except you are making it about that instead of what it really is: Katsuki is making a case for you two being scum together in this game. I'm not arguing he's right or wrong, I'm just arguing you are misrepresenting him. That's pretty telling.

If by "secretly knew" you mean I trust that Katsuki can count to 7 then yes, I "secretly knew" this. And yes I'm calling it scummy, and I thought it was obvious why. Scum love to jump on another bandwagon if a mislynch is going to happen without them. I don't think I need to explain why blatant distancing from a mislynch is scummy, but I seem to need to hold your hand. Check this game, in particular my case against PranaDevil (distancing from CoolDog mislynch D2) for an example of scum intentionally avoiding a mislynch they know is going to happen without their vote.

Any reason why you didn't explain this in the first place?
- If Katsuki was scummy for trying to distance from the raj wagon by voting you, why did he continue to not distance from the raj wagon by saying it was still a good lynch? By your logic he would have thought the mislynch was going to happen without him, so he wouldn't need to say anything more about the raj wagon good or bad. I see this as a hole in your argument.

Then LMP criticizes how Katsuki goes after another of his suspects after the lynch. Yet LMP doesn’t explain why that point is bad.

I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Quotes please.

This one:

Katsuki tries to shift focus after the flip to MOI's reaction to the hammer along with crap "this is a post town-MOI would NEVER make". Complete BS.

I noticed in another of your posts you said there's no way Katsuki would know "MoI wouldn't make a post like that as town".

Yeah absolutes are not a good way to think, but Katsuki wasn't saying it as an absolute. He called it gut. You take him at literal value on this and other posts like the scumbuddies for life. Its like you don't normally play on this very website where people use verbose language all the time.

All the LMP hate has definitely NOT dissipated. I love how you can say all the hate has dissipated, and in the same post say "Larger wagon is a go" and vote me. Seems pretty contradictory.

Flail more for us though Katsuki, it'll make your lynch both easier and more satisfying.

This is not questioning Katsuki. You never explained your reads in a way that meant you wanted them answered by Katsuki himself. You just wanted the pressure to be on him. And predictably, Katsuki is responding to the pressure on him and not the case. Your fault.

On pg13 right now.

Just saying that LMP and MOI are obvbuddies.

And MOI's case on me thus far has been virtually

"Kat is playing like how Kat always plays hence Kat scum"

.

Multiple times now you've made this assertion and you've offered 0 evidence to support it. Please explain how you are reaching this conclusion.

Also, you're boiling down of the points against you to "This is my playstyle" is both A) wrong and B) scumtastic.

I don't see this as honest questioning because I was able to read his ISO and find out for myself. Where is the post where you question his reason?
But I do agree we should talk more about his meta defense.

Furthermore, I'm at L-1 and in all likelihood the lynch today, so OF COURSE I'm putting my thoughts out there about everyone, that's what townies do when they know they are going to die. Are you actually saying I should be laser focused on Katsuki to the exclusion of Fonz, Tal, ect? Isn't that what scum would do (push as hard as possible at the other bandwagon purely for survivial instincts)? I can't believe my putting out my opinion on as many people as possible before my lynch is actually scummy in your eyes.

I said after you placed your vote not after you went to L-1. In that time you did not question Katsuki, but you have started to pair him with other people to artificially boost his case. Scumpairings mean nothing unless one of them flips scum first. You act like Kat is a better lynch because of something Tally is doing, which I find opportunistic.

Why is my vote the worst, the one that is "for all the wrong reasons" yet here you claim HC has provided NO REASONS, while you simply disagree with my reasons. Isn't reasons you disagree with less scummy than no reasons at all? Why or why not?

I'm not arguing he doesn't have any reasons, just that he hasn't provided any. My conclusion is that he is short on time and maybe not committed to this game.
Sure I disagree with your reasons, but I mainly think they show signs of an opportunistic and misleading mentality. That's what makes you scummy.

Any reason you feel the need to defend Katsuki's behavior as softly as possible Jahudo?

Is this post your response to my question?

I don't see it as defending Katsuki's behavior. I am arguing for your lynch while using your case on Katsuki as reasoning for why you are scum. I am saying that there are valid "MafiaScum" tells people are making against Katsuki, but I see them as null tells.

[Jahudo]

Waiting for a flippy flip but I don't see how Katsuki's comment about Tally was a smoke screen? That's a new explanation I think. Does anyone else see it that way and can explain it?

Scum voting another wagon near deadline while having said "that other wagon is good" in reference to the mislynch is EXACTLY what the scum in that instance did.

Yes but in order to compare these two situations we need to know that you are also town. If Katsuki picked a scum wagon over the town wagon then it isn't really distancing from a mislynch as much as picking the right lynch.

You should avoid burden of proof arguments.

[Jahudo]

Katsuki, claim time. I intend to hammer.

No scum kill yet means we get a free day. LMP was like N1 kill. We should take advantage of this day to get the town's 2nd choice unless he has an awesome claim.

I will admit I was wrong about LMP, and that there has to be a townie or more on the Katsuki wagon so maybe their gut is better in this instance. There's also the information we'll get, plus not having to deal with Kats at a potential lylo sitation would be nice.

[Jahudo]

Hmm, roll the dice and all that comes up is information.

• Both wagons were town so scum probably sat on their preferred wagon day 2 and maybe didn't make a questionable switch that they couldn't backup in their ISO.
  
• I don't think they would have aggressively pushed their choice once it became clear there was not a third option.
  
• If someone's top suspect was not LMP or Kats before those were the two largest wagons, that person as scum would more likely go along with the group's direction.
  
• Though I don't think liking one of the wagons vs. both would be that telling.

Off to re-read for that stuff.

[Jahudo]

Kmd, Your day 2 play was lazy despite having the top two wagons be on people you didn't want wagoned. Why didn't you push your Talitha case harder? Why didn't you explain why Katsuki looked town to you?

[Jahudo]

What kind of mafia game doesn't have scum NKs? I guess its possible given there's a 4 person mafia and scum win conditions are typically "50% and nothing can prevent the same". If that's all the case than a mislynch today doesn't automatically give scum a win. They would need a way to break the deadlock.

So I don't really see a compelling argument to massclaim. If scum do have NKs then we have awesome protection/blocking and should not massclaim to out them. If scum dont have NKs then we are most likely looking at an underpowered town with little to gain from massclaim.

I also think that with 4 of 9 players being in the mafia, we already have pretty good odds of not going down to 50%.

Jahudo, I haven't had the time to make a hard push on anyone. And for the Kat thing, same answer.

I'm talking about Day 2 not today.

[Jahudo]

A mislynch today means there are 8 players left – 4 Mafia and 4 Town. Unless there is a Town PR that can kill off the scum at night in then that EXACTLY meets the 50% requirement you mentioned.

Whatever, I still don't want to massclaim. We have great odds of catching scum. If we succeed then we'd still need a few more days to catch the others. I'd rather they didn't know our power roles now in case it is an awesome doc stopping kills.

[Jahudo]

in a 8-4 set-up their is NO WAY the scum could possibly have a Nightkill considering the make-up of Town we know at this juncture is scummy. I'm serious about this. Even with 4 Goons having normal Nightkills would mean Town would have to be almost exclusively PRs. Yet we've already lynched 3 VTs.

I don't know how you can be so confident that's its the other way. What I know comes from my background here. A) scum are supposed to have a faction kill in every mafia game and B) I ran an 8:4 setup with scum nightkill. Its supposed to happen like that and it can happen.

The fact that you tried to play off the loss possibilities of a mislynch tonight is scummy.

I gave my opinion as an opinion, complete with uncertainties where I looked for the best possible scenario because I'm trying to figure out what I don't know for a fact. But you gave your rebuttal as a statement that you already figured it out and know how to proceed without any open discussion. So you are the one who looks like they know what would happen if we mislynch, which is something only scum would know.

The fact that if we mislynch today (and mass claiming would further help improve our 'great' chances, IMO) without mass-claiming means there is NO chance for a mass-claim means using that as an excuse is scummy.

What are you calling scummy in this second one? Using something as an excuse for what? I don't understand you.

If you are talking about me not putting a warning label on my opinions, then you would sound ridiculous to me. My opinion is that we better be able to lynch scum today, based on what we know, or we deserve to lose as town and I would gladly accept that loss. I know that if we are able to redeem ourselves a little today, and survive to tomorrow, we should not be back to the worst case scenario with all our power roles out there and vulnerable. I would rather have the momentum moving forward, find scum connections and lynch right again.

[Jahudo]

I'm not going to keep arguing over this points. Its really distracting from the real job today.

If the majority of people want to massclaim, that's the groups decision and I will go along with it. For all we know there is no role that will make a difference one way or the other.

[Jahudo]

My scum picks are KMD, Tal, MacLock and HC.

At some point today I'd like to know what MacLock had on Magna way back on day 1. My read on Mac largely depends on this.

[Jahudo]

Yes, its a fundamental truth that scum would win at 50% (with that as their win condition) if there is not a role in place to automatically prevent them. I spoke from the hope that we might have that power as a fallback in the unfortunate chance we mislynch today. I should not have worded it in such a way that people could interpret it as a reliable best case scenario, because we shouldn't guess the mod at this point.

I figured I didn't need to hold anyone's hand and guide them through the pros and cons, worst case and best case scenarios of what we are facing.

Any reason why you bolded the 9, didn't comment on it yourself, but asked someone to comment on it first? If you already explained what you have a problem with it, then nevermind. I think they are good odds for the group. Even better if you are a townie not being suspected by anyone because you can assume 4 of 8 as the odds.

[Jahudo]

I keep forgetting this is a mini.

[Jahudo]

The "4 out of 9" statement was directed at the 4 or 5 non-mafia that will not be lynched today. For them it IS a 50% chance. Its only a different number for 1 townie, in the scenario where they are lynched. But they already know they are town so the statistic wouldn't apply anyway.

[Jahudo]

I'm simply stating that it was clear when you made the initial 'a mislynch doesn't cost us the game' statement that you knew there were only 9 players left.

Of course I did, that's why I said it. You are making less and less sense to me the more you are trying to dig into what I'm saying. I think you are pulling at straws now.

[Jahudo]

And I confirm the neighbor part.

[Jahudo]

HC you are not Newman. I counter claim you.

I am Newman, Weak Tracker. As a mailman (he's not a cop) I can find out if someone is not at home, but I don't know where they are. Its a rest of day ability.

@ HC and other power roles: If you really are power roles you should have your ability described by name. How is it formatted and what does it say?

WHY HC IS LYING SCUM:
-HC and I claim to have the same character name.
-HC claims he is a cop, I claim I am a tracker with a mailman flavor in my role PM. Newman is a mailman on the TV show, not a cop.

--------

I don't have any results from my power though. BV targeted nobody day 1, I targeted KMD day 2 (either no result or I was blocked, mod doesn't separate it), and day 3 ended before I sent in a target because I thought I was going to be the hammer

I'm voting HC after massclaim. This is a little weird in that it presumes scum don't have fakeclaims, or limited fakeclaims. I don't know what to make of that?

But at the moment this massclaim does apparently help our chances today so I'm sorry Magna. You were right.

Magna is the last one yet to claim, so he's next.

[Jahudo]

Ok, I'm tracking The Fonz.

[Jahudo]

I forgot that I am already tracking UT. I remember sending it at the beginning of the day after being mad about missing yesterday's action. But at least I can be a second source about UT using a power today.

My ability is called

Mail Route

.

@MacLock: At what point did you think scum wouldn't have kills? Wouldn't that have made SK an unlikely role, or essentially a survivor?

In the QT charter asked me about Tally and Katsuki specifically, when I was focused on LMP and Mac. It seemed like an innocent enough question because it came a few days after charter made post 309 talking about their actions in relation to LMP. I don't think charter-scum would try and back me down from the LMP-town like that, but that would mean more by first knowing Talitha's alignment. And I thought he looked pro-town before being neighborized by him, so I continue to think he's town now.

[Jahudo]

Town isn't a part of my role name either. I just know my alignment by the color green and the win condition, like the sample PM.

Jahudo, did you discuss your role/power with charter in your Neighbor thread?

No, charter didn't ask for a claim.

[Jahudo]

Ok UT is targeting someone.

[Jahudo]

@Magna: When you said you received no information on anyone targeting LMP, did you get a PM from the mod or not? Because the way my role works I wouldn't know if I was roleblocked or not.

[Jahudo]

In which case, why on Earth would you claim Newman as scum? It basically guarantees a counterclaim. I smell weird gambit, though what exactly I haven't a clue.

Gambit from who, HC or me?

If I already knew I could confirm my role power with UT, then it means I am either scum with him or I am a tracker like I say. If I was scum why would I connect myself to a buddy? Why would I try and force a "one or the other" situation with HC?

Missed choices. Used his ability first thing today, of all days, instead of waiting to see if it could be used to catch someone in an endgame lie. And the timing (after UT pulled up Haschel about his claim) looks like an opportunistic gambit.

* BV missed day 1, I can't say why. I missed day 3 because I said I wanted to hammer, but HC did it first.
* I didn't put much stock into a power that didn't distinguish "no result" from "blocked result". I just wanted to use it, to use it.

Your argument is ridiculous. Newman is a mailman on the show, not a tracker.

I assumed cop was also your ability flavor, since you provided none. Mine is mail route, that I am a mailman. By delivering mail I am able to weak track people. I still don't see how "nemesis" allows you to identify Jerry. What else is in your role PM?

2) hascheltown claimed his role a jahudoscum countered a bad claim to get a mislynch

How are you separating bad from scum in this case?

His role proved nothing about his ability. I have proved my ability on the condition that UT is also telling the truth about his.

[Jahudo]

I can vote but my intention is already clear, and I am respecting Magna's wish to make preparations for tomorrow. I don't want my vote to be a sign that anyone else can start voting. Scum could try a quick bandwagon if I have a townie or two on me.

Maybe scum are given a couple confirmed fake claims and a couple unconfirmed fake claims? I'm trying to think of most-likely scenario's but its hard to judge that.

[Jahudo]

2) hascheltown claimed his role a jahudoscum countered a bad claim to get a mislynch

How are you separating bad from scum in this case?

Scum is Option 3.

I mean how can you or anyone besides myself tell Haschel gave a bad claim and not a scum fake claim?

UT's point about Haschel saying "night" would be a horrible reason for hypo-scum to think they could attack the claim itself. Its like saying villager instead of vanilla townie, everyone knows what is intended because its in the OP. Scum are aware of the OP. So the tell is not on one's alignment but how closely they are paying attention to the flavor of the game.

[Jahudo]

KMD said #2 makes sense and he prefers my lynch. I am asking him why HC's claim looks bad town and not bad scum.

[Jahudo]

Jahudo: who were you going to target on Day 3? Why were you waiting until right before you hammered?

I never decided, I was just waiting for a gut feeling because I wasn't picking out any possible power roles in the game.

bv was pretty scummy in his short time with us.

No one ever voted bv, did they? I don't think so.

The general suspicion against him was lack of posts and content. He said his life was busy and he requested replacement. So where does that suspicion still stand? You think bv would lie despite not having pressure on him? That would be a stretch.

[Jahudo]

Yes, when I tried to track the Fonz I got a pm saying I already used my action. I didn't get a pm all day 2.

It looks like there's no more trying to confirm roles or plan out future days so I'm going to vote.

Vote: HC

[Jahudo]

Fonz, I just can't see any situation where haschel is scum with a fakeclaim given to him, who allowed a town jahudo to counterclaim him. I don't see that at all. Jahudo is scum in every theory I can come up with.

So if I'm scum I must have been given a fakeclaim too right? How many situations can you name where I would fake counter-claim when I already have a tracker role that is generally seen as town?

The thing is you can't prove how many fakeclaims scum were given. Maybe it was less than four. Maybe it was four but with only myself and Magna left on the popcorn scum would decide to pull a gambit that severely limits our discussion today. Either there would be a newman or there wouldn't be, and if there was it would still limit the discussion to only two people. HC was already a lurker in this game that hadn't done much scumhunting at all. How long would he last?

KMD has outed himself as lazy scum coasting for an easy win. He's played this way the whole game. If we lynch HC today and if flips town, KMD is the most obvious buddy. Not even pretending to consider situations.

[Jahudo]

Wel MacLock knew Magna was Joe Davola. Either he's scum or the scum also have a flavor expert who figured out Magna's breadcrumbs. Either way HC could have known he was in a position where the only one who could counter-claim him was the one ranting about not wanting to massclaim today. Suddenly the person against massclaim is the one using it to defend himself. That's essentially the case on me, yeah? I don't see it about anything I did prior to today, or that doesn't have to do with my role power.

If I was scum why was I so against massclaim if I was a tracker? Why would I be against massclaim if I was ready to counter-claim someone?

Why would I take UT's reaction to HC's claim as enough evidence that enough town would feel the same way against HC?

[Jahudo]

Maybe I misunderstood UT's claim but why can't he use his double vote tomorrow if we lynch town today? Wouldn't it be 4 town votes, 4 scum votes, and 1 new vote that goes to either town or scum? Wouldn't the lynch threshold be 5 again?

KMD has outed himself as lazy scum coasting for an easy win. He's played this way the whole game. If

we lynch HC today and if flips town

, KMD is the most obvious buddy. Not even pretending to consider situations.

Emphasis added. I’d like you to explain exactly what you are intending to say here.

If we lynch HC today and if

he

flips

scum

, ...

I still say "IF" because I've been in too many games where town fakeclaim (I've done it too) so maybe scum are just laughing their asses off at this point.

The typo between town and scum is probably a result of me talking in too many hypothetical scenarios lately. "If he is scum, if he isn't town, he wouldn't as town, he would as scum, etc etc." I also typed that post out fast and didn't spellcheck it.

[Jahudo]

OK, I don't think "if he flips scum" and "possible town fakeclaim" are a very likely town thought process in this situation. You're in endgame and someone else claims your role in mass- claim... and you think there's still a chance they could be town?

Its happened in at least three of my games here, so yes I'm always thinking about it with a claim.

[Jahudo]

Talitha, I can't tell if you are really looking at all the evidence here or not. How important is Magna's claim in this really?

- Have you even heard of HC's role power before? A cop that can only find 1 member of a mafia? I haven't. Its unique. The rest of the claimed powers in this game are more common (neighborizer, vote manipulator, watcher, tracker). It doesn't fit thematically.

- Who has HC down as a town read? What has he done this game that is pro-town? Where was his scumhunting? It was very under the radar, votes on popular wagons without much reasoning. No questioning. Few reads given. Will someone in this game talk about this? Can someone argue how he looks more pro-town than me without talking about the claim?

- How can you argue that one opinion from UT, without waiting to hear from the group in general, would cause me as hypo-scum to fake counter-claim? Why would I want to put myself in a 1 on 1 situation when I could claim tracker and some other character?

- Why does my role power usage give any doubt to my claim? BV was a lurker so its not a surprise he didn't use the power then, and besides as scum I could have easily lied and said I used the power both day 1 and day 3. If I had another chance I would have saved my day 4 tracker, but at the time I wasn't expecting that I needed to prove my power in order to prove my alignment. I was under no pressure and only thought about finding scum, not creating some safety net for myself.

[Jahudo]

Jahudo on the other hand has taken stances that I don’t see as reasonable from a Town perspective.

Name 1 besides my opposition to massclaim.

[Jahudo]

MacavityLock, what do you think about the overall play of HC, bv and myself this game? Do you know how HC normally plays, or do you think his level of content and scumhunting is an issue? Do you have any concern over how bv got replaced, like it is more or less likely to be tied to his alignment?

[Jahudo]

You can use your double vote today right? So Mac would be the tiebreaker at this point.

[Jahudo]

That was a nice gambit, however you came up with it.