Mini #1081 - SitMOA Mafia (Endgame... Congrats, winners!)

[ThAdmiral]

Confirm. I'll read up and post.

[ThAdmiral]

Now the rvs is over :teach:

This is truth. It lasted over 100 posts in this game which is impressive and helps with the reread as it is more I can skip over.

I'm getting town vibes from chess. He is putting himself out there early. And, unsurprisingly, is getting attacked for it.

Wow lol. I love how chess posted town reads without any explanation and no scumreads. Yeah, making town lists is pretty easy for scum, isn't it? And then when they flip town, you can just say "I told you so". And I liked how you threw in your scumbuddy too.

This is just plain mudslinging.

But I think doombunny is most likely scum.

vote: doombunny

I'll put my reasons in a list just for you doombunny:
1. For the backtracking chesskid pointed out in post 151.
2. For having weak reasons to vote someone.
3. For making mountains out of molehills to make reasons to vote someone look better than they are.
4. For using lists with lots of points on it to make it seem like they have a much better case than they actually have!

[ThAdmiral]

@ vp: I had a look through some of your other posts in other games and I have some serious questions for you:
- Why post at all if you are going to post so little and have almost zero content?
- how do you have fun playing this game (as in mafia)?
- Is your playstyle really to say as little as possible?
- Why?

I don't mean to sound harsh but I just want you to come out of your shell a little.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm going to tell you the same thing I told chess. Actually, I hate having to type things up all over again. I'm going to direct you to the post. I'll even be nice enough to give you the post number. (It's iso #10. Thanks for playing)

@Chess- At first I was telling you to read the thread and stuff because that was before you admitted the RVS was over. I started saying that we should stop talking about the RVS because you finally said that the RVS was over and everyone at that point could agree on it. Meaning there was no point about arguing about it anymore. Next time think first, then post

But you weren't just telling him to read the thread. You voted him for it:

Vote: Chess

fo' rlz for not even reading the thread (or else he'd know that RVS was over), thinking the RVS was still going despite the fo' srz votes, and for lack of any explainations.

And then you further used it to justify your vote:

RVS is not over. Tsk tsk.

We're still in RVS now

READ THE THREAD DAMNIT! These posts just made me a lot happier with my vote.

Why is not reading the thread scummy? How does not reading the thread help someone if they are scum?

It is a bs reason to vote someone, and an even more bs reason to justify your vote on someone.

2. For having weak reasons to vote someone.

Explain.

3. For making mountains out of molehills to make reasons to vote someone look better than they are.
4. For using lists with lots of points on it to make it seem like they have a much better case than they actually have!

Why are these the same thing? The only one making mountains out of molehills is you sir.
Also, how the hell are bulletted lists scummy? This has got to be the most insane thing I've heard this game that they were serious about.

Actually all of the last three points on my list were essentially the same, or at least in the same ballpark, and that is the point - when you write a list like you did it makes it seem you have more evidence than you do against someone, it is a way to manufacture weight behind your reasoning especially when you know the reasoning is weak.

getting town reads is useless,

as it can eliminate the process of elimination

, i dont know why gandalf is kicking such a fuss about it

Can you explain this?

[ThAdmiral]

oops lol i made a mistake

getting town reads is useful, as there is the process of elimination = =

I see, agreed.

[ThAdmiral]

So I could have said the exact same thing except not numbered or bulleted and it would be fine? Come on now, this is the most bullshit thing I've heard since people have tried to convince me that telling jokes are scumtells.

Let me put it another way: why do you think adumbro is scum?
If you have to make a list with a bunch of minor points against him to convince yourself and everyone else, then you don't have a strong case. And pushing a weak case, by making it seem like a strong case, is scummy.

[ThAdmiral]

I still have no idea how making a bulleted list is somehow scummy compared to saying the exact same thing unbulleted.

As an off note: HOW THE HELL IS VOTING SOMEONE FOR MAKING A BULLETED LIST A 'STRONG CASE'?

You are misrepping the fuck out of this situation. It is NOT because your list was bulleted. It's because your lists was a bunch of bs to justify your vote. You were clearly clawing desperately to anything you could to make your case seem bigger and better than it was, and the reason you felt you needed to justify it so much is because

you knew it was bs because you are scum

.

[ThAdmiral]

@ chesskid: thoughts on doombunny?

[ThAdmiral]

@ vezokpiraka: I guess answering my questions in the other post would have required you to type too much then.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm oh so sorry for thinking that "Writing lists like you did" and "Using lists with a lot of points" means "BS reasons".

Way to ignore the non-bolded bits in the quotes you just put up.
In fact let me bold the actual points:

when you write a list like you did

it makes it seem you have more evidence than you do

against someone, it is a way to manufacture weight behind your reasoning especially when you know the reasoning is weak.

For using lists with lots of points on it

to make it seem like they have a much better case than they actually have!

Get it now?

I just looked back and all my reasons were valid. Care to explain how they are not?

Wait, you had to look back to

check if your points were valid

? I think that just proves my case.

[ThAdmiral]

@TA- Except you said that it made more evidence than I really do as a RESULT of a bulleted list.

No I said you made it look like you had a better case than you actually had.
Do you see the difference? I never actually mentioned "bulleted" list anywhere. If you had made the same list without the bullets I would still be after you for it.

Honestly? Did you really think I was being serious? I said I checked back to push you in the right direction. Unless you think I have a terrible, terrible memory and need to check my role PM everytime I post to check my faction then this is a crap reason.

You said "I looked back and all my reasons were valid". I interpreted it the most obvious way, i.e. that you actually did what you said rather than it being rhetoric.

Also, way to avoid actually having to explain how my points were invalid! Way to go!

alright:

1. For random voting after the RVS was over which signalled that she wasn't even reading the thread.

I've already mentioned that this isn't a scum tell.

2. Asking for townpicks. WTF?

I don't think this is a scum tell either in the current meta.

3. A lack of any scumhunting whatsoever (unless you count "What are your scumpicks and townpicks?")

There were other people who had been far worse in the scum hunting department.

4. for having only FUCKING SMALLISH VIBES. I mean come on... We're on page seven. You should have SOMETHING by now.

I don't really see this as a scum tell either, as it is just as hard as it is for town as scum to develop reads on people. This is however your best point.

5. For previous lurking

Once again there were other people who had been far worse in the lurking department.

[ThAdmiral]

thadmiral, i think you are twisting his points. for example i have many games going on at once, i cant look back to my points?

He said that he didn't do this, so it is a moot point.

what if it is lylo, then ppl who said 'reading' is scuM?
horrible logic

Don't remember saying that, mate.

[ThAdmiral]

@ Andrew: there is clearly something different about someone looking back at the game in lylo and someone having to check their own points in the case they made just a day or two ago.

[ThAdmiral]

Lol this argument again? Long days are anti-town. Players start to drag, and they out-think themselves. At the end of a long game day, townies are in their most moldable status. It's a fact. You can look at any game, and see that it's true.

This isn't true.

On my iPhone. Will respond to other stuff later.

[ThAdmiral]

@thadmiral i dont think there is. a few days is enough to forget

You're nitpicking.

Alright so just lists in general are bad? What if I had just written it out in a paragraph?

Ok, so I didn't explain myself very clearly. That is my fault. I shall try again as clearly as possible:
It has less to do with the fact that it is a list than it is a bunch of fairly weak tells. By combining the tells you made it seem like you had a solid case, as there were 5 of them, even though you didn't.
My line of reasoning is this:
- you were doing that to justify placing your vote while also trying to manipulate others in to believing your case was stronger than it was,
- town would have no reason to behave like this,
- therefore you are not town.

@ andrew: why do you want to lynch chesskid. He claimed an ability, backed by flavor according to gandalf, that would result in a no-lynch if he ever got near -1 as he would use it on himself, so if you are trying to get him lynched essentially you are trying for a no-lynch.
Why are you trying for a no-lynch?

Also chess clearly is NOT SCUM! If he had a no-lynch ability as scum: a) there is no way he would have claimed it as the mafia could have just used it whenever they wanted to get another nk, b) giving scum a no-lynch is too powerful.
Unless you think he is lying about his claim, but this seems unlikely as it has been apparently backed up by flavor.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAdmiral why did you just open a can of Wifom stew?

Cause the shits delicious! I've got seconds if anyones interested.

town do have a reason to behave like this though in some sense. if you can't convince anyone of your case against scum, then no matter how good a scumhunter you are, you aren't going to get them lynched.

Not a bad point.
Buuut, doombunny denies doing this. He seems to genuinely think his case is/was good.

By "combining the tells" do you mean putting them all together or putting similar points together?

Ok you seem to have misunderstood me again. This time I'm blaming you.
I realize that you would be expected to put the points in the same post, and I realize that each point is different.
My PROBLEM is with the fact that I believe hardly any of them are decent tells AT ALL; that you intended to fool people in to thinking you had a decent case by putting down a lot of points, even though the points weren't valid.

Also, you didn't answer my question towards you. Do so.

This question?

Even if I did have short term memory and needed to check my post, how would that be scummy?

It ties in to my theory that you didn't have a strong case. I feel like if you had a strong case against someone you would be much more likely to remember it.

Making assumptions like this aren't good reasons for clearing someone. Can you read the game mod's mind'?

Yes!

Seriously though, making assumptions is generally not a good idea, but people can make educated guesses. For example if one person claims doc and another counter-claims it wouldn't be an

assumption

to say that one of those two people are scum, it would be an

educated guess

.

[ThAdmiral]

errr, HOW DOES THAT GOT TO DO WITH NO LYNCH

[ThAdmiral]

None of your business. Also, don't forget that I may or may not actually have it. I'm not telling you. I'm going to dangle it over all your heads.

If you're alive toMorrow, i'll raise an eyebrow.

Hi my name is darkhorse and I like to line up lynches.

This is 100% true. I can't believe I missed it.

vote: dark horse

[ThAdmiral]

That's different. There, it's usually been proven that doc CCs=one of them is maf. Here, your talking about the mind of a person and I doubt you know how snow bunny thinks.

Ok probably not quite so cut and dry as that other situation.
Let me put it a more reasonable way: it is

highly likely

that chess does indeed have a no-lynch ability, therefore it is

highly unlikely

that chess is scum.

[ThAdmiral]

Thoughts on Narsis and Malthusis, and thoughts on the RBT wagon?

Narsis - has seemed alright to me. Made sense for the most part.
Malthusis - more or less the same.

RBT wagon - was considering getting on it but it seems rbt is going to act the same way regardless and I can't be bothered trying to argue a stubborn lurker in to providing more content.

the fact that chess as a NL ability is something tat I believe. However, why would a townsperson have such an anti-town role?

Some would say a night-kill is primarily an anti-town role, but obviously vigs exist. It all depends on how you use it.
Also I think it is a clever piece of game design as it creates exactly the sort of tension that you are referring to: a town player has a generally anti-town ability - and therefore would be unlikely to use it unless in an interesting situation.
In any case it doesn't make much sense as a scum role. One day less for lylo is

extremely

powerful, and furthermore it serves the same purpose as starting the game with one less town player (which would have been a much simpler and more obvious way to balance the game if it required something like that).

[ThAdmiral]

Alright I'm done arguing with you about this trivial thing XD

Same. Let's agree to disagree and leave it behind us. We'll just end up talking round in circles otherwise.
I don't even have you that high up on my scum list any more.

[ThAdmiral]

what kind of game has 2 abilites that can cause no lynchs.

Vezok's ability doesn't cause a no lynch.
Do you realize that you've made us run out of facepalms?

^ implies that you know that there is a watcher

Is that a scumtell?

[ThAdmiral]

barbarian SK.

??
(and yes I checked the wiki)

For the sake of claiming to stave off some of these (awful) votes: I am indeed a wizard, and have the following spells available: Magic Missile (1shot Vig), Polymorph (1shot Jailkeeper), False Visions (1shot Bulletproof, triggered), Invisibility (1shot Commuter)

If you're telling the truth then there is a serious amount of power in this game.

Also, your big post that is supposedly coming will probably decide your fate. I recommend making it more than a giant wall of CHESSKID IS SCUM GUISE LOL

Seconded. If you are town RBT please do more than try to just push a big case on chesskid. It won't help.
If you are scum, then by all means feel free.

[ThAdmiral]

Is it?

Vote: rbt

[ThAdmiral]

Yeah. But you weren't supposed to say that.

[ThAdmiral]

Whatevs. I put them in the same category as jesters. They might "win" but the real game goes on.

@rbt: you can blame others but you did a real bang up job playing pro town and defending yourself really well, or just saying anything useful.

@ chess: if you hadn't said anything earlier gandalf probably would have outed himself. Then we'd be laffin.

[ThAdmiral]

Well you should have done it when you could instead of asking for permission.

[ThAdmiral]

So you say: "sorry chess, I know you said you would vig anyone who hammered, but I have to be the hammer. Soz!"
He wouldn't have vigged you. He may act tough but he's actually a big softie.

[ThAdmiral]

He said "exactly how you know", not "please be more cryptic with your response".

Also I really think the mass block was a bad idea. Why did you decide to use it when you did chess?

[ThAdmiral]

Would you prefer I hadn't used it. and had risked dying with it unused?

I suppose not.

I lost all of my abilities. NOOOOOO.

chesskid I hate you. No hard feeling though.

This could well be a lie. I know that my ability/abilities would have come back to me if I had used them last night.

Yes. I was lying.

If scum consider me a vanilla townie than they won't NK me. Easy as that. Actually I didn't lose any abilities.

Ah. I see.

[ThAdmiral]

I've come to the conclusion that vig narsis, vote dh is the best play for today.
We're really not being productive and need some reads.

Vote: dh

[ThAdmiral]

If the one being vigged dies before night then it doesn't really matter.

[ThAdmiral]

It's katsuki.

[ThAdmiral]

So who do you think teh scums are?

[ThAdmiral]

Case against narsis:
Early in day 1 was suspicious of andrew and vezo. Here is why:

vezokpiraka: for not doing anything but actually being around and posting.
andrew94: for similar reasons

Not very strong cases on either, so it could be argued he was going for easy targets.

When asked about other lurkers, such as RBT and vren, he said that he thought andrew and vezo were worse, but he didn't like them either.
So basically he has a large pool of people he would be happy to lynch, but as far as I can tell does not have anyone pegged as town, i.e. someone he wouldn't be happy to lynch.
Scum like large pools of people to lynch from for obvious reasons.

After a wagon forms on RBT he switches over. He explains why:

1. A governor shot is an easily confirmed ability. Furthermore a scum fakeclaim make more sense going for doctor or cop or some other role like that that makes more flavour sense. (yeah WIFOM...fun stuff!)
2. It could be a useful ability later.
3. We can lynch him later if he doesnt continue contributing/does more scummy things.
4. RBT wagon looks good.

1. admits it is wifom and therefore invalid
2. alright
3. sets vezok up as a potential lynch down the track
4. doesn't explain why the wagon looks "good"

Interestingly he says this a little later:

oh i'm quite knowledgable on the flavour. it's why i'm asking the question. i dont quite see how a gov shot or no lynch shot fit into the flavour.

So he doesn't see how a gov shot would fit in to the flavour, but he was willing to jump off vezok and on to rbt. Why?

Keeps saying "I am town". Not helpful.

Dark Horse isn't a VT. 100% guaranteed.

Do you know this because he is your scum partner?

Yeah, so basically he is scum. But mainly because he used a list.

unvote
vote: narsis

[ThAdmiral]

to: chesskid@ihavehimonmytownlist.com
subject: re: stop ignoring this plox.

Dear Chesskid,

What is it you want us to look at? rbt was town so surely he wasn't lying. If flavour can't break the game it makes sense if some people have the same moves. Maybe people were also told different things about how triggered abilities work as well, or there was some miscommunication there.

Regards
ThAdmiral

[ThAdmiral]

lol.
The email address actually came up as a link

[ThAdmiral]

I'm oh so sorry for thinking that "Writing lists like you did" and "Using lists with a lot of points" means "BS reasons".

Way to ignore the non-bolded bits in the quotes you just put up.
In fact let me bold the actual points:

when you write a list like you did

it makes it seem you have more evidence than you do

against someone, it is a way to manufacture weight behind your reasoning especially when you know the reasoning is weak.

For using lists with lots of points on it

to make it seem like they have a much better case than they actually have!

Get it now?

I just looked back and all my reasons were valid. Care to explain how they are not?

Wait, you had to look back to

check if your points were valid

? I think that just proves my case.

thadmiral, i think you are twisting his points. for example i have many games going on at once, i cant look back to my points?
what if it is lylo, then ppl who said 'reading' is scuM?
horrible logic

unvote vote admiral

thadmiral, i think you are twisting his points. for example i have many games going on at once, i cant look back to my points?

He said that he didn't do this, so it is a moot point.

what if it is lylo, then ppl who said 'reading' is scuM?
horrible logic

Don't remember saying that, mate.

where did he say he didnt go back and 'LOOK AT HIS POINTS AGAIN?" it was just before your post and i can go quote it if you want.

dude, i was saying in general, in lylo, people say 'brb reading the thread' - then can ppl say - lol he has go LOOK Back FOR HIS POINTS? scum...

Andrew's case against me as far as I can tell having iso'd him.
Although calling it a "case" is being a bit kind.

[ThAdmiral]

Narsis wagon is moving too fast.

This isn't that surprising as a lot of people had expressed suspicions of him. Also because after the claim people have moved off dh and narsis was the obvious next target.

[ThAdmiral]

summary: thadmiral , what do you have to refute against me

I disagree with you.

[ThAdmiral]

In all seriousness you are asking me if I thought people rereading in lylo was scummy which is a completely different situation.
My stance was that it was suspicious that a person thought they had a very strong case against someone but apparently couldn't remember why even though it was only posted a day or two ago. I still stand by that.
It turned out to be moot, however, as doombunny later said that he had just said "i'm looking back to check my points" as a figure of speech, and that he didn't actually do that.
It's a non issue really.

[ThAdmiral]

^ but u poked a big hole out of him saying that he was going back to check.
for all you know, he might have forgetfulness

He might, but I'm not going to just assume that. Why would I let someone off the hook so easily.
For example - someone claims a role that is not in an open game. Everyone is like "um that roles not in this game, die scum". He says "Oh wait, I read my role wrong". In that situation do we just assume they are bad at reading or do we lynch them?

[ThAdmiral]

As far as I'm concerned I'm done with it. Andrew can explain it to you if he wants.

[ThAdmiral]

plenty of time before deadline for adumbro to be replaced.

[ThAdmiral]

@ malthusis: what would you say to claims that you have only really started putting proper cases down now that you have a substantial amount of pressure on you?

[ThAdmiral]

Nothing, other than the fact that if I knew nothing about D&D and was making a fakeclaim for doc, it's almost certainly what I'd use.

I disagree. If I knew nothing I would probably go something like "heal".

[ThAdmiral]

Good catch doom.

Unvote
Vote: adumbro

[ThAdmiral]

Death millers can really ruin games. I sincerely hope there isn't one here.

[ThAdmiral]

enough with that chess and Katsuki. it's not helping.

No, but it is entertaining.

Are we lynching adumbro or what?

[ThAdmiral]

Interested to hear what spyrex has to say. This game was in desperate need of a new opinion.

[ThAdmiral]

Sorry for lack of posting. Been busy lately.

I killed narsis. I am a pyromancer.

Will try to get a bigger post in tonight as I'm on my phone right now.

[ThAdmiral]

A pyromancer? There's no such thing, at least not as a specialization.

Really? I just checked the wiki, and...wait what's this?

Sorry for lack of posting. Been busy lately.

I killed narsis. I am a pyromancer.

Will try to get a bigger post in tonight as I'm on my phone right now.

Such a pathetic fake-claim. Are scum even trying anymore?

See above.

I actually am a pyromancer. And, yes, I am wizard aligned. I have a bunch of fire spells and I can prove it.
In any case why, as scum why would I have killed Narsis? Furthermore If I am scum then who is responsible for killing vezok?

You can decide to lynch/kill me for invalid flavor reasons or you can think about the situation logically.

Obv I am willing to lynch katsuki due to chess' claim but I think everyone is giving gandalf a massive free pass even though he has been lying constantly. His reasons for lying have also been very weak, and his motivations don't seem town at all.

[ThAdmiral]

this is from the 2nd or 1st post of the game, so people dont say 'omgomg quoting pm'

-Roles and factions:

There is at least one vanilla townie in the setup, as well as at least one mafia faction. All factions have a winnable condition.

FML
WHY ME

Then why all the stuff about "I need to be the hammer"?


But I digress. My claim:

As I said I am a pyromancer.

I have a bunch of spells and I can only choose to use one per night. They are:
burning hands: basic kill target. This is unlimited, everything else is one shot.
fire shield: the first person to target me after I use this will die, even if it is another night.
fire-lightning bolt: kills target, but if the kill is prevented I kill the person who targeted the target.
fireball: kills target ignoring any protection
delayed blast fireball: kills target, but I can choose when the spell takes effect up to three days later.

I also have a triggered ability:
Contingency: if I am killed or lynched I can perform a last kill on someone.

n1 - I targeted dark horse with burning hands. I felt there was a decent chance he was scum.
n2 - burning hands on narsis. It was a toss up between him and malthusis. I also considered andrew but felt sure someone else was going to kill him seeing as we seemed to have a lot of people claiming killing roles.
n3 - I targetted malthusis with fire-lightning bolt. I was evidently blocked as my kill failed. I was thinking of using fire shield and realised afterwards I really should have.

@ gandalf: I think my abilities indicate the presence of a scum doctor. Therefore I believe either you or malthusis are scum.

[ThAdmiral]

Contingency sounds pretty town, although there's no way for him to prove it.

Well there is. Lynch me, and then I can kill you.

So andrew is a totally power-less townie with no actions?

That's what he is saying.

[ThAdmiral]

Look at the night kills. There are still a couple unclaimed including the one where someone was

eaten

. Who is more likely scum? Me or the team that is eating people?

And sorry to spoil your plan but if I get lynched I'm killing gandalf.

[ThAdmiral]

And scum have a roleblocker as I was blocked last night.

[ThAdmiral]

Now comes the annoying waiting part. ThAd, can you tell us the truth now?

I have told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me god.

And I'm definitely killing gandalf.

I'm going for Andrew now, no matter what team he's on.

[ThAdmiral]

I agree that the sk was unbalanced as it affected town way more than it did the scum. Also I don't mind the concept of discouraging a claim but this just very harshly punishes what is normal town behavior. If the power ended when katsuki died it would have made a lot more sense/been a lot fairer, or at least if people were told that they had been rendered useless it would lessen the damage done.

Also 8-3-1 with a death miller? Extremely stacked against the town. It is a miracle we got as close as we did.

I don't want to sound like I am complainig too much. I still enjoyed the game and having this much power in a small game is a fun idea. I also know that I will never claim lightly in a snowbunny game ever again!

/pre in for the next wizards and sorcerers.

[ThAdmiral]

I think that would have been fairer/more interesting. A super-powerful sk is a gret idea. I've always believed normal sk's to be underpowered, but when that sk dies his abilities probably should have ceased. IMO.

[ThAdmiral]

I was hoping the third party would end up being a Cleric, win condition being "Bring 3 town back to life".

This is... quite an interesting idea. Hmm...

May I also state that I believe revivers, if used well, are among the best roles in mafia. And that scum/third-party revivers are tres cool.