Mini 1085: Higurashi Mafia Game Over!

[Carrotcake]

/confirm

[Carrotcake]

Lamba, telling us that you are going to use that later on takes away some of the magic when you finally do use it.

Vote: Lady Lambdadelta

[Carrotcake]

1. What is your experience level? -how many games have you played in?
2. Do you agree with Lynch All Liars?
3. Do you agree with Lynch all Lurkers?
4. What would you do as scum at L-1 to try and shift the lynch away from you?
5. When do you find it appropriate to hammer someone?

I'll answer the questions, but remember that these aren't set in stone.

1.) I don't know.
2.) Yes
3.) No. Unless it's really late in the game, and they are actively lurking. I leave the responsibility of purging lurkers to the mod.
4.) Either I spew profanities about their mother, sister, and granny. Or I don't change a thing, and act as if I don't have a single vote on me.
5.) If I think they are scum.

[Carrotcake]

The questions are role-indepenent. So it seems to be more of a getting-to-know-you more than anything.

[Carrotcake]

role-independent; you will answer it the same way regardless of your role.

[Carrotcake]

1.) It isn't a stupid idea lambda, many setups have been broken by a day one flavor claim. Mini-themes usually aren't the best at balance. Saying it helps scum more is as baseless as saying it helps town more. But I've generally good experiences at mass flavor claims. And people who suggest it aren't usually, believe it or not, role fishers, but are town.

Scum are probably much, much more afraid of this than the town is. They need to contend with duplications, and they'll try to pick a role late. But doing so makes them suspicious. This is different from normal games. Role fishing becomes a tool for the town.

2.) Drench. Here's a better question: There isn't a consensus. If you find yourself amongst a meek town, will you stand up and take command? Have you ever started and drove a bandwagon to it's bloody end? Have you ever stuck your neck out for instinct? Are you sheep, who can't do anything for yourself and stays with safe choices all the time?

3.) Lambda, the evidence isn't this simple. For example, from the answers I could spot the impulsive egomaniacs, whose sudden swaps in attitudes are scum-tells. In the early game meaningless tidbits are strained out to clump into something bigger.

Are you saying things that don't count as meaningful evidence are useless? If you are going to rage so hard about it, then I politely ask you to stop with all the posts that attempt to be funny. And are quite pointless in the end. This vindication is even more of a waste than asking the questions.

4.) Zodiark you're a troll. It isn't condescending, adding extra effort to add convenience for us is the furthest thing from it. It's thoughtful.
Yeah, he is distracting us from the more important things like scumhunting... which involves twiddling our thumbs and squashing discussion as it's distracting us from twiddling our thumbs and squashing discussion.

Rather than talk smack about his inexperience, perhaps you could brings yours to bear and improve the questions.

[Carrotcake]

As for Carrotcake, if you believe that discussing set-up is oh so helpful, then why didn't you propose to do so or why aren't you discussing it yourself?
And your third point from post 90 is interesting. Now you state that the RQS could help, while it was you who stated that your answers aren't set in stone and that the answers are role independent.
Also, if you think scum are more afraid of flavour talk, then what's your thought on the players who oppose it?

1.) Not bringing it up doesn't matter. Does it make my points any less valid? And I am discussing it. See the post. You were meant to read it.
2.) Yes, my answers aren't set in stone. I concede that exceptions occur that may lead me to not lynch a liar. So what? How does this pass off as me undermining random questioning. How does it connect? I expect you to answer this, and will nag you until you do.

Saying that there may be exceptions to my answers does not have any connection to how I view random questioning. In fact nothing you are saying is making sense. You form connections where they do not exist. However, for the sake of politeness I shall humor you.

These are the type of players that oppose flavor talk:
1.) Town so trained in normal mafia. "Rolefishing is scummy!". They keep this as a principle and fail to see the opportunities in theme mafia.
2.) Mafia who are afraid of rocking the boat, as they have no obvious play.
3.) Players with inside knowledge, such as power roles.
4.) Players who are second-guessing power roles
5.) People who are afriad to win , or those that don't want to disrespect the mod.
6.) Players who fear the unknown.
7.) Those who honestly believe that this is detrimental to victory as town, and this is the case plenty of times.
8.) Those so enamored with traditional play, that they can't play any other way.

I'll speak more on this later. But I want to see how people react on this.

WHAT DOES EVERYONE THINK OF A FLAVOR CLAIM?

There are much more, but as I recall these are most relevant to our type of game.

So many questions and so little answers. Is this how you people play?
Deflect, and ask. Define ambigously and arrogantly with words like "interesting". Whine about random questioning as you wish. Those came in sweet and welcoming. But this? If you are going to be aggresive, then at least make sense.

[Carrotcake]

Why I'm voting you, City? For question 4. Compare the following:
'How do you act as scum?'
with
'What would you do as scum at L-1 to try and shift the lynch away from you?'
With that said, why did you ask this question (Talking about question 4)?
And in response to your response, what else did you want to hear? I don't know how many games I've played and I don't see why it's needed to point out the reasons why I don't support LAL and LAL. Especially with LAL and LAL, as it could turn into a mafia discussion topic if these get elaborated on. As said, I don't like question 4. And I'm torn about question 5.

A caricature:
The Rabbit: Hello there, Giraffe, what's your favorite type of icecream.
The Giraffe: I don't and I don't see why I have to tell you.
The Giraffe: Hang the giraffe! Burn the witch!
The Rabbit: That's doesn't make much sense.
The Giraffe: Why?! Comapre the two: [What's your favorite type of icecream?] [You are an icecream maniac aren't you!?] That's why I'm voting for you. Why did you ask me anyways?

This is the part when the rabbit blushes, and runs off to tell her girlfriends about how love at first sight doesn't exist.

[Carrotcake]

1.) What point are you talking about? Try not to be as ambigious as you normally are. I'm not the sharpest fork on the cupboard.
2.) It helps in a different way. There is more to it than the simple trap you put up. You also gain insight on the character of people answering it. And it sets us up to talk about something. If there is an exception, then I'll try my darnest to explain it. I don't know how you should interpret my answers, but know that I've answered honestly. Except the spewing on Grannies part, since I love em', I really do.

[Carrotcake]

Was talking to Zazier by the way. I'll wait for Lamb's snowball to grow before I respond to her.

[Carrotcake]

2.) That rabbit scenario is what's going on in my perspective, the conversation between the rabbit and giraffe is Zaz's defence. It's weird to speak up on the sheer ridiculousness of attacking him for starting the random questioning? When it's what gave us something to talk about, and nothing about it is inately scummy? And you're defending this strange attack?

1.) I don't really like you. You place quotation marks on my words as if to insult me. And use protips as if you actually know things (protip: you need to get a clue). I'll let this sit for a while. I want a lot of people involved. Though someone else will probably answer you anways.

[Carrotcake]

I would change my vote for you, if it wasn't already there. I answered one of your questions, inluding why. Re-read, or learn to read and then re-read. You must have a selective reading problem. You would have picked up on the role-fishing isse too if you were a bit sharper. Go go go, push the speedlynch anyways.

[Carrotcake]

Oh, your not trying to lynch me, and are just going for the pressure?
So indescisive, when no pressure came upon you.
Why say this so early? You need a bit more backbone. Go for my head.
Formulate a full case against me.
Or is this scum, distancing himself, because you know i'm town?

You don't have to spam all caps to be a troll. You are the quite common troll that thinks he's a shining beacon of the community, but in your arrogance and paranoia, you've attacked a man's character for being thoughtful.

Going after the ridiculous attack, that's ironically more distracting than whining about a distracting question set. Is obvious, and requires little justification on why I did it. It's to help town. Laz is harming town, and blowing smoke to look like he's helping it.

Forget appealing to authority, or my join date, or other metagames that you feel you have an advantage on. You are scaring discussion away while feeling justified on a few extra things based on "experience". Your authority, if you had any, is meaningless. Discuss each point as they exist in the game.

Do some research? To find out you dislike RVS, and that your tastes are even worth researching? Hahaha. How self centered can you possibly be, troll? Go and make more friends.

I want at least half the town involved in the roleclaim fiasco before I proceed with that. I've answered everything on my other posts by the way. Go re-read.

[Carrotcake]

Why did you drop your initiative and say "It's just for the pressure"?
How am I shifting the blame to zodiark?
Why do you place quotation marks on words I use?
I never called for a role-claim, I want to see what everyone things of a role claim. Why do you think it's a bad idea.

[Carrotcake]

think*

[Carrotcake]

Telling him to go get some friends?
What are you talking about.

[Carrotcake]

Stop avoiding my questions.
Go and make more friends; Clutter the page more with your jokes. And buddy up with the other member some more.
Stop avoiding my questions.

A flavor claim might win us the game, instantly. The question is for you guys though. You want a discussion, then anwer it.

Stop avoiding my questions.
I don't care about your vote. It won't kill me. You lack the backbone to go through with this. (See: It was just for the pressure, honest!).

[Carrotcake]

I never asked a flavor claim. It was all you going: "Guys he asked for a flavor claim!". Re-read the initial post, like I've been telling you for so long.

[Carrotcake]

Not to mention your pressure is meaningless. As it's baseless and lies on the fact that you are misinterpreting my posts.

[Carrotcake]

Hey, you've had more than one post now. Rather than waiting, answer me on why you were so eager to back down Lambda. I'm not a jester by the way, I'm either scum or town, so don't let it die like this.

[Carrotcake]

The post was directed at lambda.

[Carrotcake]

Her case is meaningless since it's based on misinterpretations and old, flawed principles. I didn't directly agree with the flavor claim, I wanted to see how people reacted to it. I explained how scum would react with white, pure fear, instead of debasing the idea calmly and logically. The white fear is pretty much what happened here, with a lot of people.

A very important case is her indescision, she delayed answering on the grounds that I dropped a wall of text and it would take time, but she's obviously had the time to mingle about. And even be bored, claiming, "now we wait".

Why do we want pressure?
For discussion. Although in this twisted thread, the real meaning becomes: Pressure, so someone else talks. So I don't have to.
I am scummy. Tell me why. "Carrot is scummy" is as ambiguous as it gets. It's quite useless to and serves to do nothing but look town by leaking as little information as possible.

Come on guys, give me something to work with. The attacks against someone like me, the likely lynch, are imaginary.

Try re-reading every single one of my posts properly, and comb it for scumminess. Rather than this boring "omg rolefish", which I've even talked about early on.

Lets see what I have.
[1] - "acting like you won't budge, is scummy" - It serves to highlight Lambda's padding.
[2] - "he's not answering" - It's obvious, the trick for fishing for reactions doesn't work if I let the cat out of the bag, after just ONE reply
[3] - "you've discounted cases..." - I beg you. Find some meaning on their ridicoulous acts. Attacking someone as a distraction for getting the game off the ground, isn't!?

[Carrotcake]

Digging up my old games is a total waste of time. Why continue?
Why pretend you are helping town in such a way?

[Carrotcake]

I'm sure you've been through a lot of serial killer claims.

[Carrotcake]

Spyrex, I agree that the fear of jesters shouldn't cripple the town's voting process.
I'd like to know about you. From your posting history, you haven't said anything about me, but are quite convinced at the validity of this speedlynch. I wonder, which of the points against me do you agree with?

[Carrotcake]

What questions have I left unanswered?
Lambda, your tastes on how I should post don't matter. You have directly avoided reasoning out why in the span of a few posts, you backed down and said you were only doing it for the pressure. It defeats the purpose of pressure, and all your doing is creating padding for my inevitable pro-town flip.

Zodiark is my vote for scum right now. I can actually let his attempt at squashing discussion slide, as it isn't entirely brought about by scummy malice. And is more like him acting as an authoritative censor. But his serial killer tangent is troubling.
His fear of a serial killer is completely unfounded. Night has never fallen. This is probably paranoia brought about the insecurity that the mafia may not be the only group capable of a night kill.

/vote Zodiark

And I find it the desire for speed on the wagon troubling, spyrex stands out. We seem perfectly content with going through with this, even without the participation of a large part of town. Also, the way the reasoning is presented is done in such a way that cleaning themselves of accountability after my lynch would be as painless as possible.

mean, if carrot flips town, I see no scum motivation in it. Just a paranoid townie.

Exactly. This lynch is engineered to give as little profit to the town as possible, on the probable likelihood of a townie lynch. And it is probable. By definition day one kills aren't even substantiated, and you are still quite close to the 9/12 chance (99% of 12 player games have 3 scum).

I can accept gambling disadvantageously and lynching day one. But create it in such a way where people are committed to the lynch, right now, it's all meta chatting. There is little drive to hunt for infomation.

Prolonging this lynch as long as possible is as townie as it gets. It leads to more discussion. And I assure you, if you let me die this way. Day two will be slowly, maybe try questioning before killing me?

[Carrotcake]

"Hey, asking EVERYONE what they think about a flavor claim isn't ME asking for a flavor claim" It's more than semantics, it's about meaning.


1.) What does everyone think of a flavor claim?
2.) What's your flavor? Baby, what's your flavor?
Is more than a semantic difference. What I'm trying to say is totally different.
It would have been a trap, but it seems everyone has an irrational fear of someone suggesting a flavor claim. Rather than debuke, everyone went batshit crazy.

How is this scummy? And since we are in the business of proof, can you post one game, ever, where scum suggestion a role claim?
What's happening now is a lynch on principle. Designed to grant as little information post lynch, because hey, it's on principle.

Sorry kitten, you didn't seem important.

[Carrotcake]

And I'm in a swamp right now. There's too many things.
quicklynches get a lot of information.

Here's a question for you then.
Will a quicklynch give us more information than prolonging this, for this instance?

Twenty Liters of water is heavy, but it isn't as heavy as a whale.

[Carrotcake]

Plus, I'm on Zodiark, and you're just being a pest like the rest of the town.

[Carrotcake]

Simplifications don't work for you spyrex. I can come to accept my lynch, but used simple math to highlight the staggering lack of preparation for the likely outcome.
Exactly.
I never said we should do X.
I said we should discuss doing X.

Is it so hard to believe, that people bring up topics they may not agree in, in the interests of creating discussion.
"OHH IT WAS LOL REACTIONS AND TRAP SPRUNG NOW doesn't change anything."
Why?
Why doesn't it change anythign.
Are you implying that creating reactions on day one, is without merit.

[Carrotcake]

Spyrex, why do you want this done quickly?

[Carrotcake]

If you want in on the talk kitty, tackle my points directly. Don't dance around them.

Yes. - Please talk about it. You have no authority, so you pretty have to come up with reasoning. Rather than leave raw words.
What questions?

[Carrotcake]

I want some focus. Do you agree with what I've said on Zod? Kitty.

[Carrotcake]

Ah I see.
The question is why I'm not targetting you. I actually haven't reviewed your posts. Zod stood out and I'm going to try to focus on him.

[Carrotcake]

I don't feel like re-typing what I already have for you. Read my posts and ask for clarifications.

[Carrotcake]

WHAT QUESTIONS NEED ANSWERING

bullet points plz.

[Carrotcake]

UK has stated that she is unclear on your points.
It is impossible for UK to tackle your points if she cannot understand them.
You have in the past complained of being misrep'd.
If you do not want to be misunderstood, you MUST clarify your posts.
It is anti-town to refuse to make your points into a clear bullet form list.
It is anti-town to refuse to answer questions.
Taking our arguments, and throwing them back at us does not disprove our original points on you.

None of those tie me as scum

.Most of the misunderstanding from my posts come from the incompetence one the person reading it. If you want something clarified, bring it up. I'm not going to retype.

You sure have a lot of principles. Weak players use principles. Tailor them to this game.

C

R

A

Y

O

N

S

ARE FUN

[Carrotcake]

We have devolved into personal attacks, instead of actual points. Fabulous.

[Carrotcake]

So furstrating. I'll just take a nap and comeback tommorow, maybe.
But before that.
Watcher here, doctor on me.

[Carrotcake]

I don't feel like full claiming. Why don't you people just kill me right now?

[Carrotcake]

Excellent, I'm still alive.

This particular game of mafia has been really interesting for me. It's the phenomenon of being scummy, when you allow yourself complete honesty on every single thing you type. Role-fishing is scummy, is part of the collective knowledge of the site. But never, in my multiple accounts and multiple games have I ever seen scum actually role-fish day one without pressure. Ever. Yet, on practically every single game this comes up. It's as if we have a universally accepted misconception.

The Scum is a boogeyman. He is idealized, as scummy. And he remains this way because of ego. We were asked early on, how would we act as scum. Most of the answers were jokes. "I am Legion". We arrogantly believe that we act the same way as scum as we are town. This is very dangerous. We prevent ourselves from truly searching for tells, and connecting with the people we play against. Instead, we are trapped in a library of principles, that never truly work, and worst of all, lack any semblance of being genuine.

Full claiming won't grant you additional information.
Rushing this, while it sates your impuleses, also grant you no additional information.
If the amount of discussion is a measurable barometer for the town's resources. And people are ever so ready to reduce it. I wonder who truly is detrimental to the town.

also, lol at the internet tough guy.

[Carrotcake]

Oh boy, here comes the padding from both spyre and city.
Hi City,
1.) So you do admit to opportunistic bandwagoning? And just because someone else did it makes it alright?
2.) Andrew is active lurking, so I don't like him too. But your and his votes are totally different.
Your bandwagon jump is opportunistic because you are trying to ride the momentum of another wagon, you want to be part of a kill, without gaining accountability. The votes on you have barely any momentum, and andrew is trying to start momentum, he will shoulder accountability is it proceeds. He is bandwagonin to create a case, you are bandwagoning opportunistically; because a case already exists, and you are getting a free lunch.

I posted reasoning for voting Carrot. Are you saying he isn't scummy? If I have good reasoning, it isn't opportunistic bandwagoning.

Everything you say is quite obviously but an echo. And sadly, you've echoed the weak.

You had 4 votes on you as of this post. If that's not meaning I don't know what is.

What are you trying to say? Oh right: "Other people voted for you, and the majority is to be trusted, that's what's meaningful, the vote of the majority, and not their reasoning."

I've claimed Watcher. What does everyone think of this?
All that's missing is my character name, which I witheld because I'm feeling grumpy. I've calmed down.
Ōishi Kuraudo is my character name. The detective in the cartoon.
It's the generic watcher role.

[Carrotcake]

I've decided to collect all of your posts pertaining to me.

Are games on this site breakable by flavor? The other site I play on, the mods are careful to avoid that. Would a flavor claim even do anything for town?

fake edit: after reading the rest of the thread, I see that these games aren't (shouldn't) be breakable by flavor. So why...

Who is this post directed at? It appears to be multiple people? and you didn't answer the questions...

it's scummy to discount other people's cases on you as meaningless and baseless. Pressure is pressure is pressure. Right now it looks like you could be lynched; why do you say that her case is meaningless?

You had 4 votes on you as of this post. If that's not meaning I don't know what is.

I'm curious which of those you've labeled as good reasoning.
If you fail at that.
Which isn't an echo?
Can you really say you've earned your place in this wagon.


Zod, logging in, but ignoring the topic is suspicious too. When you add it to the serial killer slip.

[Carrotcake]

Plus even know, so close to my death. Lamda still refuses to even talk about the time she backed down and said: "It's just for the pressure". When very little changed in between her posts.

[Carrotcake]

To all the people saying I'm tomorrows lynch if Carrotcake is scum: What if I'm right and Carrot is Jester/SK, or if we're all wrong and s/he is town? When I get an answer, I'll hammer.

1.) If I am scum, then you are still on the chopping board. Your scummy actions stand idepndently from whatever case is on me.
2.) If I am not, then you are still on the chopping board for acting as if you had inside knowledge.

[Carrotcake]

That was directed at Zod.

[Carrotcake]

None of that should matter Zork, tell the town why you think I'm scum. And hammer.

[Carrotcake]

Hurray I'm dead.
Don't worry Zodiark, I'm not a jester, I really was the watcher.
Celebrate!

[Carrotcake]

I'm not dead until the flavor and reveal.

[Carrotcake]

Two slips now. Even confronted by a watcher reveal, your primary fear lies on a jester. Not to mention the timing of "I won't lynch until I know what happens to me..." and the consequent lynch after I answered you. How did you like the answer?

Oh
I forgot
you like
silence.

[Carrotcake]

I suggest you answer me now. I have no reason to lie.