Mini 1080 -- txtMafia -- Game OVER

[The Fonz]

You're conflating scummy and scum in my assertions, and it pisses me off. Not helping the town when you had the opportunity always makes you slightly more likel

Truncated. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

There are two clear Tasky wagons. The early, 'just better than random' one pushed by AV and myself: the latter deadline one based on his actions since then.

[The Fonz]

IE the not doing anything to help the town, plus me doing the reading and finding that what he claimed was his playstyle wasn't.

[The Fonz]

The basic idea is that everytime someone does something that hurts the town, it's possible they're doing it deliberately.

[The Fonz]

Also, I find being second on an early wagon like that to be a strong protown tell- willing to be seen as 'wagony' to get things moving.

[The Fonz]

I already did.

[The Fonz]

You're starting from the premise that he's really a cop, though. In general, I do find all unprovoked claims scummy, since town has no motive to do it.

[The Fonz]

Power role claims in general make the claimant more likely to be scum.

[The Fonz]

The scum gambit is actually a moderately less stupid explanation than the genuine townclaim.

[The Fonz]

I honestly missed you asking the first time. If you cared, you coulda ISO'd.

[The Fonz]

Of course I'm reading you condescending asshole. If an action confirms alignment, who cares? Doesn't invalidate wider point. Conf. town sometimes lie, but lying

Truncated. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

This is it. For obvious reasons, can't do 500-word post of meta findings like would normally do.

[The Fonz]

Which outs the cop. Which is more gain than the real cop gets by doing it. There is SOME upside, so less dumb.

[The Fonz]

Two meanings of scummy. Basic one is 'Scum are at least somewhat more likely to do this than town.' (Note, this doesn't mean that the majority of ppl doing it a

Truncated. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

Second is 'scum have more motive to do this than town do.' If players are rational, they are the same thing.

[The Fonz]

This, albeit from scum game, also interesting in context of Tasky's claimed playstyle.

[The Fonz]

Another thing with Tasky is the timing of his omgus votes. He votes AV not immediately after AV's taskvote,

[The Fonz]

but after antihero and fishy have already voted AV for taskvote. Then he votes for me, (after I've actually switched to CW)...

[The Fonz]

but when he later gives reasons, he cites only things I'd done prior to caykevote, and his vote follows anti onto me.

[The Fonz]

Equi had also voted me, tho he unvotes b4 tasky's mevote. So it looks like he's not just omgussing, but omgussing WHOEVER HE THINKS IS THE EASIER TARGET AT THE

Truncated. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

Set against that, there's some meta stuff which i'll post 2m which gives me pause.

[The Fonz]

Is this a rolefish? He never mentioned being a cop. Antitown at best.

[The Fonz]

THe fact that you said 'Didn't pick up cop claim' clearly DOES imply that it was a cop claim.

[The Fonz]

Also, my discussion with KAST had ZERO to do with Equinox. Kast proposed a theoretical example involving a cop.

[The Fonz]

Yes. Kast proposed 'claiming cop under no pressure d1' as an example of something antitown but not scummy.

[The Fonz]

Oh yeah, and he specified 'Open Game.'

[The Fonz]

Re-reading Herod, still gives me horrible feeling. Not being proactive around deadline at all.

[The Fonz]

OK, here's the meta point re: Tasky. I find it hard to see how he'd make that MD post if he wasn't actually using his own alignment...

[The Fonz]

as the basis for his reasoning HERE. (Which is why, incidentally, he shouldn't have posted it- influences this game).

[The Fonz]

Also, in his scum games, he both looked a ton more town than he does here, and also, he didn't omgus. So either Tasky's got worse,

[The Fonz]

or he's deliberately playing badly, but that doesn't fit his scum meta at all.

unvote,

I need to rethink this.

[The Fonz]

I'm probably going to go with Kunk. Agree w/AV that if one has 'bad town' read of Tasky, don't see what could have happened in 2nd half to change mind.

[The Fonz]

Time to use the time-honored OMGUS buster: Tasky, ignoring any and all actions by or toward you, who's scummiest?

[The Fonz]

I will certainly vote K over AV. Better do it now, as I'm going out in a minute, and there's always poss. of net going down 2m or something.

[The Fonz]

Vote: Kunkstar7

[The Fonz]

I don't see a smoking gun tell on anyone, really.

[The Fonz]

It's a little bit of hypocrisy here, a little bit of inactivity there, a little bit of carelessness somewhere else on pretty much EVERYONE who's a suspect.

[The Fonz]

Btw: Can totally buy AV thinking Kast/me were discussing Equi, but only if he wasn't really paying attention, which is kinda scummy in and of itself.

[The Fonz]

No he ain't. And Tasky, while you're here, STOP with the MD thread. Like it or not, posting in MD about how you always omgus as town,

[The Fonz]

at a point when you were under attack in an ongoing game about your use of omgus, and admitting in that game that it was that which caused you to make the post,

[The Fonz]

DOES prejudice the game. If you continue, you're seriously risking modkill. Don't do it.

[The Fonz]

Ooh, default wagon! At least one of Chamber and Kast is scum.

[The Fonz]

Also, Fishy terribad lurker: Chamber has 12 more posts than him, and is a replacement. Prob want to lynch one of those three or Herod.

[The Fonz]

AV: Oh, hell no. But demanding Chamber post a case is at best pointless and at worst scummy pointscoring, since he NEVER does.

[The Fonz]

I don't think a wagon shows up like that with three town on it, and I've already concluded with reasonable assurance that Tasky's meta suggests not-scum.

[The Fonz]

Sure. But why the hell do you think he will change his entire long-established playstyle for you?

[The Fonz]

Have to say though, I don't understand the rationale of 'I think he's likely to be a cop so i'll attack him.' Nevermind 'I'll also point out that he looks like a cop.'

[The Fonz]

What scum tells?

[The Fonz]

Also, what is 'massively obvious' to one player might be disagreed with by another.

[The Fonz]

Default wagons on the prev. day's number two tend to be scum heavy in my exp, esp. when that player isn't actually very scummy like here.

[The Fonz]

RF- what? I don't see anything confusing there.

[The Fonz]

One's me suggesting I don't really think AV's committed scum tells, one's me saying Chamber won't give reasons. I don't see how they're related.

[The Fonz]

Ah yes, it was a rhetorical question. Like as in 'What Lions secondary?'

[The Fonz]

I agree with the above. The whole 'I missed the cop claim' business is suspect, but I think a genuine mistake is more likely than scum motives there.

[The Fonz]

Though it baffles me, if you think someone might have claimed cop but you didn't see it, why you wouldn't check. It's pretty freaking important.

[The Fonz]

I don't see what there is to answer. I assumed Tasky and Equi were doing the same thing.

[The Fonz]

I kinda assumed what went for Equi went for Tasky too. Also, I understand what >> means, but thinking that X is much scummier than

[The Fonz]

Y does not necessarily imply you've got Y as not scummy at all, especially when you've not really mentioned anyone else but me and AV all game. I was lookin for

Truncated. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

Vi: You're right.

Vote: RayFrost

. Fishy has obvflaked, and what Hero is doing this page is clearly scumhunting, even if I don't particularly like it.

[The Fonz]

PRECISELY my thought on the matter. I had him as non-cop PR. Given Equi was susp no1, ridiculous to think

[The Fonz]

AV would see said suspect claim his own role, and not CC. @FTF: Saying someone is your no1 doesn't necessarily make it honest.

[The Fonz]

I mean, for starters T. was pushing me over AV all of yest, and only switched cause of deadline. Defaulty wagon for bad reasons = scummy.

[The Fonz]

Herod: What? I didn't leave it without follow up. I still think one of the two is very likely scum, and i'm leaning Kast.

[The Fonz]

In a game with ten living players, assuming three scum, then the 'no read whatsoever either way' line would be draw at 30/70.

Fixed url tag. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

Kast: AV's initial vote was townish, particularly blatant looking rolefishing usually isn't rolefishing at all (though chamber is making me wonder). Last point adds nothing.

[The Fonz]

On "LACVT" it's risk-reward. Running anyone else up risks outing another power role. I tend to lean to 'Don't autolynch VTs you were..

[The Fonz]

otherwise thinking were town just because they claimed, but a VT claim shouldn't change your mind if you did support it b4."

[The Fonz]

I have in the past said 'We've got to lynch this VT claim, because we've already outed too many PR.' Plus, premature claims are scummy.

[The Fonz]

AV, evidence of supporting this particular policy in the past please.

[The Fonz]

You're in the scummier half, but I'm far from convinced you're scum. Annoying to put a pressure vote on, then come back to find two more votes and a premature claim.

[The Fonz]

But given premature VT claim, really loathe to move vote. Need to go back and look at votes 3 and 4.

[The Fonz]

You know, it's bizarre. Three of my top 5 scummiest are voting another of the top 5, who's voting another of the top 5, who isn't voting.

[The Fonz]

I want to know why Kast has Fishy so low down on his scumminess list.

[The Fonz]

So, chamber said he was wary of voting KAst because too many others have been putting suspicion that way,

[The Fonz]

so instead he jumped the largest wagon. WTF?

[The Fonz]

Herod, I was away from the thread for two days, and I'm posting as I'm catching up. Nothing wrong with that.

[The Fonz]

On RF's play post-claim, I think it's better than pre-claim, and if he'd been playing like that all game, I wouldn't suspect him. HOWEVER:

[The Fonz]

What was scummy about him was trying to fly under the radar, and you pretty much can't by definition fly under the radar as leading wagon.

[The Fonz]

So I'd expect both scum and town RF to start doing that to save his ass. It begs the question of why he didn't play like that before. Basically,

[The Fonz]

everything since the claim is largely null to me, hence no change in position. Pretty much, the premature claim locked me in unless someone else starts looking a LOT scummier than him.

[The Fonz]

Also, Herod: I think we established that asking chamber questions is pointless. I merely point out the things he does that i think are alignment-relevant.

[The Fonz]

@K: I don't think when he does post, he's more than averagely contentful, and his megalurking makes the sum total scummy.

[The Fonz]

Was willing to give a pass when it looked like he was genuinely about to flake, but having chosen to play he's not done anything to merit a strong town position. Can you give specifics?

[The Fonz]

What difference is there in your mind between avoiding controversy, and not actively courting it?

[The Fonz]

Fishy. Was responding to your response on the subject. Though 1923 was obviously about RF.

[The Fonz]

I was clearly talking about Fishythefish. Possible confusion because my multipost got broken up.

[The Fonz]

What's ironic is

both

AH and RF are scummier than AV. Tasky, chamber, please take a stand between the top two wagons.

[The Fonz]

Less activity, less independence of thought and action, less willing to say potentially unpopular things (ie, policy lynch).

[The Fonz]

Could you recap why you think RF strongly town? Also, it IS deadline. AV will not be lynched today. Switching now gives us a clearer picture of where we stand.

[The Fonz]

Funny, cause that plays into why i'm suspicious of you. All your actions, your activity, the suspicions you take and when you take them, all feel middle of the road to me.

[The Fonz]

When looking for town players, I look for people trying to have an impact, rally people to their chosen suspect, etc.

[The Fonz]

I'm not sure how you think i'm not providing active leadership over the game as a whole, though.

[The Fonz]

This is megascummy posturing given the gamestate.

[The Fonz]

You can't not extend when the top wagonee requests replacement one day before deadline.

[The Fonz]

A useful point with which I can engage. I find him scummy PRECISELY because he's been scummily passive- he parked his vote on you at the last deadline,

[The Fonz]

when a townie with balls would have made a decision between AV and K*. Today, he didn't vote AT ALL until he was facing lynch,

[The Fonz]

which tells me either he's chickenshit (and my meta recollection of him is he isn't) or he's trying to stay off of lynches.

[The Fonz]

It's impossible to look opportunistic when you're not attacking ANYONE. Which makes it a pretty good scum tactic, if the town is going to lynch townies without your input.

[The Fonz]

Leaving a significant wagon for a solo one, with only a cursory 'case,' one day before deadline. Looks like you're trying to get off of a townlynch.

[The Fonz]

If you were sincere about thinking RF town, your action would be to push the wagon most likely to beat out the RF one, especially since you have admitted no strong scum read,

[The Fonz]

and you in general find the people on AH neutral or better.

[The Fonz]

1) Sure, but I'm commenting based on what I see, not on what you may or may not intend to do in future. The act of pointing out has an effect on how you act later.

[The Fonz]

2) Anyone consciously not voting for AH or RF, yes. Unless they've strongly asserted they think both town, but i don't think that applies to anyone.

[The Fonz]

3) moderately more likely to be scum + massively more likely to be lynched: worse vote at beginning of day, much better one at deadline.

[The Fonz]

*massively LESS likely, obviously.

[The Fonz]

Oh, we're going to state the obvious, followed by another of your repeated stalling posts, are we?

[The Fonz]

Thing is, fishy, you have three pages of posts (I have thirteen) and probably a quarter of what you've written is either explaining, or promising a future reduc

Truncated. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

Kast, saying you didn't have strong town read on FtF feels disengenuous- you had him tied for the guy you least want to lynch, that's normally a solid townread.

[The Fonz]

Werewolf needs to get in here and claim BEFORE he gets caught up.

[The Fonz]

Maybe, just maybe, chamber is thinking at a level slightly more sophisticated than 'X thinks y is town, so they must be buddies!' which is noobish as hell.

[The Fonz]

Yeah, because that's totally telling him what his actual reasoning is. Really.

[The Fonz]

How the hell would I know, I'm not looking at me for possible scumbuddy connections for obvious reasons.

[The Fonz]

Also, I note with distaste that werewolf did not claim.

[The Fonz]

Vi, saying I'm in any way coasting is BS and you know it.

[The Fonz]

Also, I find it really hard to see how Hdotus is the 'main mover and shaker.' He strikes me as incredibly middle of the pack, throwing out the occasional relevant-looking observation,

[The Fonz]

but not making any effort to convince the town of anything- he just kinda nitpicks at stuff and doesn't follow it through.

[The Fonz]

Yes, but it's accurate when applied to him. I must say, I'm a little amused...

[The Fonz]

Because I'm doing all the things- taking stands, pressuring undercontributors, trying to convince others - that I always do, that often get me called scummy for...

[The Fonz]

'trying to lead the town.'

[The Fonz]

On werewolf, frankly, I'm not sure why the AH wagon was so strong- while I think there were def. scum among the early tasky-defenders,

[The Fonz]

and his dropoff in activity (and reaction when Vi called him on it) was noticeable, the fact that he'd obviously gone mitigated the second a lot, and he...

[The Fonz]

doesn't stand out amongst those who did the first. HOWEVER, Werewolf's entry is scummy as hell. He appears to basically make up BS reasons to vote for Ray.

[The Fonz]

I don't have a problem with him voting to save his own ass, but I feel like he's being dishonest about it.

[The Fonz]

Well, Herod unvoted to try to get me off RF (which has completely backfired if it's his real intention) as it's left RayFrost with a big lead.

Fixed link. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

Chamber voted because of deadline, and will presumably return at the new deadline if Fishy doesn't get votes between now and then (which is unlikely, as he's being replaced).

[The Fonz]

Tasky presumably the same, though I hesitate to assume anything with him. So if everyone who was deadline-voting him but left due to ext goes back, he's back at L-1.

[The Fonz]

Vi, I didn't jump, I'm still voting RF. However, I find W5's entry scummier than anything AH did by a wide margin.

[The Fonz]

If the guy you least want to lynch isn't a good townread, either you're very paranoid or you're not trying to identify town, imho.

[The Fonz]

You mean AH. You don't think being a cause of the collapse of momentum of the only counterwagon to your townread a failure?

[The Fonz]

WW had been put to L-1, and despite a couple of poserish unvotes, was basically locked on to end up there again. All not claiming achieved...

[The Fonz]

was to give him the opportunity to fabricate a better fakeclaim if he's scum. Town claims same whatever, but scumfake is better if he reads, therefore not claiming = proscum.

[The Fonz]

Popcorn massclaim to start?

[The Fonz]

I generally prefer to claim immediately rather than discuss at all, since any kind of discussion helps scum manipulate imho.

[The Fonz]

Yes. I used to be a nolynch at milo advocate, but I think the possibility of getting on odds via night action is worth...

Fixed tag. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

more, given that the field of town roles useful in that scenario is smaller than you might think.

[The Fonz]

Bear in mind, scum will only kill if they think it's in their interests.

[The Fonz]

Protect roles don't benefit from NL, killing roles can't risk it. Only investigators.

[The Fonz]

If there exists one or more investigator, then value of poss. info has to be weighed against risk of them dying without claiming what they already have.

[The Fonz]

Also whoever: The scum will only kill if they think it helps them. Whoever dies will be the person whose death helps scum most.

[The Fonz]

Right. But the chance of a tracker or watcher hitting are very low. If there is a cop, then it's better to get results out now- hell, assuming the existence of a cop...

[The Fonz]

it's best to get results out, then NL, scum then either have to kill cop and hence confirm, or let cop live to get another investigation in.

[The Fonz]

It's just a really small benefit vs letting the scum get rid of the player they think most likely to be onto them.

[The Fonz]

The town's in a bad spot, but at least 3/4 of the dead were VTs. This means, if we're facing 9-3, there's likely to be quite a lot of power out there.

[The Fonz]

Ergo, whoever scum shoots is quite likely to be power, plus whatever the flip more info makes it easier for scum to fakeclaim.

[The Fonz]

No. I'm suggesting massclaim, then NL

if and only if

there is a cop claim. Otherwise, lynch.

[The Fonz]

If there's not a cop, then the negatives of NL outweigh the positives at any point.

[The Fonz]

NO! THAT'S THE WORST OF ALL WORLDS! The scum knows for sure who the cop is, but the cop doesn't get his investigations out!

[The Fonz]

*Headdesk*

If there were a cop, who thought that him claiming but no massclaim was the best thing for town, HE'D JUST HAVE EFFING CLAIMED, wouldn't he?

[The Fonz]

Massclaiming with the scum not knowing whether there is a cop or not is better than massclaiming with them knowing, less info for scum.

[The Fonz]

Massclaim knowing cop's investigations: know not to fake incriminating result on his innocents, makes fake tracker/watcher claims easier as they know who he visited.

[The Fonz]

Not knowing: none of those advantages. That's a lot more important a difference than the one between knowing who the cop is, and knowing what EVERYONE is.

[The Fonz]

If that's settled, shall we claim?

1. The Fonz
2. Vi
3. Tasky
4. Pappums
5. RayFrost
6. AurorusVox

[The Fonz]

7. Herodotus
8. Chamber

[The Fonz]

Dammit, where's the dice tags gone?

[The Fonz]

Well, duh, I just wanted to randomise to see who starts. Problem is, I think we're very divided as to who the scummiest is.

[The Fonz]

Probably best if Pappums goes first, actually, as his slot has contributed the least.

[The Fonz]

VT, RayFrost please.

[The Fonz]

Damn, I'm an idiot. Herodotus.

[The Fonz]

There is absolutely no reason for a vigilante not to shoot last night.

[The Fonz]

Confirmed town,

Claimed PR

,

Investigated innocent,

none of the above.

What do you see here?

[The Fonz]

Votecount 2.10

werewolf555

- 4 -

Fishythefish,

Kast,

Tasky, chamber

RayFrost

- 3 -

The Fonz,

AurorusVox,

Vi

[The Fonz]

Not with a vig, no. If we lynch right, the vig still has his free shot. I'd kinda assumed there wasn't one after the lack of a second kill last night.

[The Fonz]

Basically, either you're a GF, AV is fakeclaiming, or all the scum were on WW yesterday. What does that tell you about the importance of the WW wagon...

[The Fonz]

succeeding to scum, and what does THAT say about people's alignments?

[The Fonz]

Why assume no scum PR? GF or RB is very probable. Saying there's a GF isn't saying Vi's it, though.

[The Fonz]

I was wondering why a scumgroup not including AV would kill Kast, who assuming both power roles are truthful, never voted for a scum.

[The Fonz]

I think it may be as simple as, once chamber successfully rolefished AV, they went cophunting. Even more likely if they have GF, as that would be strong indicator of cop presence.

[The Fonz]

Working hypothesis: once AV announced not-cop, priority lay elsewhere, maybe had RB to make him harmless, and knew claiming minor power role with missing result/action would look scummy?

[The Fonz]

That narrowing down potential cops didn't work doesn't mean it wasn't a good move for scum.

[The Fonz]

Anyway, of the four, RF is strongest read (all three others involved in saving him yest) then Chamber, then Tasky and Pappums are pretty close.

[The Fonz]

Although that said, both Chamber and FtF pushed K* wagon which saved Tasky D1, so maybe it's Chamber who's the common factor.

[The Fonz]

You'd stated you were suspicious of how people were 'laying ground' for a Kast lynch. That makes it very hard for you to turn on him today.

[The Fonz]

Also, I was hella suspicious of Herod.

[The Fonz]

Tasky FtF link in 1.03: Both pushing AV as c/wagon to Tasky
1.04: RF/FtF both pushing Mothrax as alt. to Tasky
1.07: FtF starts K* wagon which eventually succeeds

[The Fonz]

Ch: It most clearly shows the efforts of the other three under most suspicion to save RayFrost.

[The Fonz]

1.10 has all on AV wagon, apart from RF- on Tasky. Same scenario at deadline: both FtF and Ch as well as T. are on K*.

[The Fonz]

I could go with the deadline VC which shows you all on WW, but this one cut down on the noise factor imho.

[The Fonz]

Conditional votes aren't worth a pitcher of warm piss. If I did count them, it would strengthen my point. What's YOUR point?

[The Fonz]

No, I'm not being biased in any way, shape, or form. I looked through the VCs, and that one stood out as glaring.

[The Fonz]

HA HA HA HA stop it, you're killing me.

[The Fonz]

Take yourself out of the equation a second, and look at it this way: do you think it is a coincidence that one red player, Ray, is facing lynch, and both other red players opt for WW instead?

[The Fonz]

Do you find it not a bit odd that an L-2 wagon on a claimed vanilla falls apart, without any real evidence or arguments for his innocence being presented?

[The Fonz]

Because you were trying to make my position seem somewhat irrational. And I really don't think, Chamber, if you were in my position, and T, FtF, and I plus RF had been the unconfirmed,

[The Fonz]

And all four of us had been on a town wagon which saved Ray yesterday, and two of the others had been on a town wagon which saved me on day one, you wouldn't see obvious links there.

[The Fonz]

Well, I'm not. What are you gaining by slinging mud at me?

[The Fonz]

Well, from my perspective, the way the RF wagon lost steam for no good reason, then the AH counterwagon sprung up for no good reason, was the basis of my reads even before the claims.

[The Fonz]

Right. Go to p68. See how AV puts RF to L-1. Note how T. immediately calls AV opportunistic scum, and then FtF unvotes RF 'to see reactions to the claim' and never goes back.

[The Fonz]

1783, RF votes AH with no reasoning. Herod for some reason decides he 'likes' RF now and turns RF's unreasoned vote into an unreasoned wagon. Yuo vote AH saying you don't really think he's scum, but you like RF. Fishy jumps on with no reason apart from 'prefer it to RF.'

[The Fonz]

You then unvote and go to Fishy, which could cut either way really. Then the votes just start piling up because of deadline: Kast's, Tasky's, your revote- the latter two because I press you to take a stand.

[The Fonz]

So, here's the crux of the matter- ANTIHERO GOT LYNCHED WITHOUT

ANYONE

GIVING A REASON FOR FINDING HIM SCUMMY, OTHER THAN 'IT'S BETTER THAN AN RF LYNCH.'

[The Fonz]

Chamber- your AH vote was the same as Fishy's, except one vote earlier. Could be genuine, but you could also have been frustrated at how unsubtle your partner was being.

[The Fonz]

You know full well saying 'I don't really suspect, this is for pressure' means no pressure is generated. Would not sitting it out and allowing Fishy to apply more pressure have been more conducive to that end?

[The Fonz]

No. You voted, shortly after Fishy voted, and then you immediately went uv-vote fishy.

[The Fonz]

Also, your AV vote took you off of... RayFrost. Who you'd only voted because 'I was gonna vote Kast but looks like people have been laying grounds for his lynch.'

[The Fonz]

The people you wanted to lynch weren't happening!? RF, who you were on before AH, was the leading wagon!

[The Fonz]

Right, but, y'know, YOU DIDN'T GIVE ANY REASONS FOR SUSPECTING RF IN THE FIRST PLACE EITHER!

[The Fonz]

Theory: You went to RF because it looked like he might get lynched and you wanted town credit, then you jumped AH because it looked like a counterwagon with momentum...

[The Fonz]

jumped off again because your other buddy FtF was too blatant about it, then rejoined it under cover of deadline.

[The Fonz]

Yeah, but here's the thing, Chamber. You're not 'not giving reasons.' You've given reasons, then you fall back on your meta when it's convenient to do so.

[The Fonz]

Vi- I think it more likely he is than he isn't, but I'm less sure on him than on RF. What's your 0.02?