Mini 1062 - The Lies of Locke Lamora (game over!)

[jenniwren]

Awesome flavor so far.

Vote: Coach Travis

Because old habits die hard.

[jenniwren]

Touche...but to be fair...I was a hider and had hidden behind him the night before, so I knew he was town and had no reason to doubt him, lol. Man, we got played in that game.

[jenniwren]

I've seen

Cats

. Twice. What are you trying to say, hrrm?

[jenniwren]

Palmertrou: Why pick someone else's meta? Planning on hiding scummy behaviors that way?

[jenniwren]

@palmer: I don't think I even have a grip on my own meta much less anyone else's meta. Why do you need a cover?

@Furcolow: The part about Jennyanydots, of course.

Where is everyone? This game is going to be awesome...get your bums in here, NAO.

[jenniwren]

*tilts head and raises eyebrow*

Faux-oblivious?

Pray telling me what I'm faux-oblivious about?

Macavity beat me to it, but that "sweet little innocent ME?" routine doesn't cut it.

Unvote

Vote: Skyquiem

Palmer: I don't know your meta or Jack's meta, so I don't know what you're playing at, but you must see why it's suspicious that you would want to adopt someone else's meta and call attention to it.

Furcolow: You're mighty chatty, but do you have anything to add to the discussion about who is scum?

[jenniwren]

Parama: if it's a null tell and could be true no matter what someone's alignment is, then why protest a vote on it? Sky's post were all fluff. Can you give me a good reason not to call him out on it?

[jenniwren]

Parama: It's very early in the day. Votes result in discussion, which result in either removing said votes or lynchings.

As of post 67, Sky has yet to post anything of substance, at

all

. You have demanded scumhunting, and yet you defend one person who is doing NOTHING and call people out for questioning him about his scumtastic fluffiness. Also, you didn't give me a good reason not to call him out for filling the thread with fluff (a.k.a. active lurking).

Sky: Who is scum and why? What do you think of Palmer's idea to play to a different meta than his own? How do you feel about chainsaw defenses? Do you think Furcolow is actually scumhunting or just buddying up to people?

[jenniwren]

Sorry, everyone. I didn't have much time this weekend and didn't get to this game at all.

Palmer, I have to ask you about some things in this quote. I broke it up and numbered it for easier analysis.

I was kinda intruiged into why some people play like they do.

1)

When I played with Jack I didn't know what to make of him. I was his scumbuddy at the time and I thought he had a deathwish at first. Then a couple of people started saying 'oh that's just jack' so I read a few of his day 1's. I sort of get his technique but to play like that you have to play like that all of the time (meta). So in order to learn the techniques I thought I'd try them on Day 1 of this game as if all else fails I can just revert back. It did and I have.

The only bit's where I've actually played like Jack is where I have quoted Jack (all quotes came from games where he was town). I didn't get any responses from those, that's the main reason it failed and I reverted back.

2)

In response to the question about what are both our playstlyes we're pretty much the polar opposites of eachother. He'll happily say things that might get himself in trouble and tilt back and forth on the risk/reward scale. I'll generally play as towny as I can and keep myself off anyone's scumdar. I do a bit of scumhunting but I don't voice any findings unless they are major. The rest I just take note on. So I end up being quite quiet and boring day 1.

1) You were scumbuddies with Jack, and he played with a crazy style that allowed people to brush off his crazy behavior as being his meta. This obviously didn't work for him for very long as you said somewhere that he didn't make it past D1. This makes me question why you would want to use his meta.

2) You say you will play a towny as you can to stay off scumdar, which is the opposite of Jack's style. Again, you said he didn't make it past D1 in your game, so I question why you would adopt his style as town or as scum.

Basically...

If you are town in this game, you have deliberately chosen to obfuscate your play with a scummy meta in hopes of being able to pass off scummy play as being YOUR meta in the future. In doing so you have perhaps made it more difficult for us to hunt scum because we now have to sort through this, which is indeed anti-town.

If you are scum, you are making a gambit that we will attribute any scummy play or scumslips to your adoption of a new meta. Because you have announced that you have dropped the meta, we are also to believe that you are town who tried something new in this game which would only possibly benefit you in future games.

First...if you want to try a new meta, make an alt.
Second...I'm not buying the gambit. I can't see any town motivation for your play at all. Early on you made a comment about how making the play would be good for the town because it stimulates discussion, but all it has done is make us focus on you--and if you were TOWN, you would want the focus to be on scumhunting, not on forcing the town to sort through your mess.

Unvote

Vote: Palmertrou

(L-2)

(More later)

[jenniwren]

@Parama: I voted Palmer for two reasons. 1) I think the whole meta thing was anti-town, and 2) I wanted to see if my shadow would also vote for him. (He did.) Also, I was responding directly to that one paragraph post that Palmer wrote to justify his gambit. I think it was a terrible idea, by the way. Seriously, if you want to change metas, make an alt or just start playing differently, and if people ask why, just say you're evolving or something.

Unvote

[jenniwren]

Derp. I didn't realize it had been that long. I'm sorry...I will catch up soon!

[jenniwren]

Palmer, I was also responding to Parama in that post; go back and read what he had said. That's not being over-defensive, so can you explain to me how you read that as being over-defensive? Also, why are you asking other people to help you pick a wagon?

I still need to catch up on the thread, so more later.

[jenniwren]

Working on a post now. Should be up within the hour!

[jenniwren]

Michel: I miscounted the votes.
Palmer: It was his massive wall post, ISO 17 (Parama)

Thoughts on Palmer:
Not much can be added here; bad meta-gambit, bad location-fishing, and bad roleclaim have all been addressed. I began to think he was most likely town, though I don't understand his roleclaim very well and I question his motives in needing to know locations.

Thoughts on Furcolow:
A lot of fluff and nothing in the beginning; very chatty. Seems to follow the lead of others in voting; he has explained this, but this is all still curious.

Thoughts on Parama:
For all of the information in ISO 17, there are still no solid conclusions, and you've speculated possible teams with little or no explanation. This post looks like you are making sure you have options to set up basically anyone in the future...anyone except for Ben, DDD, ML, and a2rude. I don't mind that there isn't a vote there; but the fact that you've come up with seven players and a way to possibly justify mislynches (i.e., lynch Sky, and he doesn't flip, so lynch Palmer, and HE doesn't flip, so lynch Furc...and so on) does bother me. It's not even the people on your list so much as the way the list seems to work.

Thoughts on Sky/nu-Sky:
Sky seemed to be role-playing a bit at first; he answered my questions readily when I asked. I want to hear from his replacement, but he's no longer one of my top suspects.

Questions:
Palmer: Your preoccupation with location has made me curious if you are looking for someone or something in particular. Also, your question about whether or not readers believe your claimed role would be in the actual novel or not is strange. You say you have a plan, and the way you worded it sounded like you were expecting someone to counterclaim. I'm confused with you.

Furc: Why insist Sky is scum only to vote Palmer right after I voted Palmer? You also voted Sky right after I did. Why?

Parama: Why wait until Palmer was close to lynch to make a WoT? At the end of the WoT you list Palmer as your first suspect, but don't vote; he claims shortly thereafter, and then you vote Sky. Since your speculation revolved on contingencies, then your uncertainty in that post ISO 17 is cleared up quickly enough when Palmer claims. I agree with Michel here...your case and vote on Sky seem to be connected to Palmer NOT being scum. You didn't vote Palmer when he was your number one, but as soon as he claimed, you voted the lead of your next listed "team." Why were you sure enough to vote Sky but not Palmer?

[jenniwren]

Sorry for the confusion...I dozed off a bit during writing (I was up all night but wanted to catch up on my games before going to sleep). I just meant that it seemed you had made a list of teams, and that in order for Sky's team to "work," Palmer would have had to have been cleared. Since Palmer's claim cleared him, then you were free to move on. The timing of it is what made me the most curious. I also didn't mean to put you in a double bind with the questions, since I was really just questioning your overall timing--like why you didn't have much to say until he was in danger. I think you've answered what I wanted to know, though.

[jenniwren]

1)As I said before, I was of the opinion that it would help town at first, then after discussion of it I changed my opinion.
2)You have this wrong. The thiefmaker is definatley in the book. I'm trying to figure out the likelyhood of if he is in the game. If it's near enough 100% then I could do something to save myself getting lynched but it doesn't sound like it is certain enough (see coach travis' post)
3)No, I'm not expecting a counter-claim, that's my point. Even from scum. I was going to get everyone on my wagon to post that they weren't the thiefmaker. Once my wagon had I hoped that would clear me. It can't though, because it's not obvious whether he is in the game or not.

I'm not disputing the presence of the thiefmaker in the book; I'm questioning why you're "trying to figure out the likelyhood of if he is in the game" if that's your role. The mod could have put any character into the game--if that's your role, and you CLAIMED that it is, then the likelihood that he is in the game is 100%. Are you fishing to find out if others who know flavor would believe he was in the game so they will believe your fake claim? It certainly seems that way to me. I just can't wrap my mind around this nebulous plan of yours, at all.

I'm will hammer, but I want to be sure no one else has anything left to say before I do. I know Sky is catching up, so I will wait.

[jenniwren]

I worry when people talk about nebulous plans. It could be though that Palmer is trying to prove that his role is in the game and not a fakeclaim, but it seems that the more he says it, the more fake it sounds.

I wouldn't mind lynching Rude for lurker scum, either. However, looking at his site ISO, he seems to be actively lurking in every game he's in, so I wonder if he just does that. Why Rude over active people who have been questionably and arguably scummy?

Furcolow: Why rush the hammer?

[jenniwren]

Palmer

: The only person's alignment I know for certain is my own. As far as what I think about you...I think you are scum. You've done little to no scumhunting, instead choosing to spend 90% of your time in this game talking about metas and people's locations and your own role and some nebulous plan to triumph over scum and save the day--I mean, yourself. When you

have

voted, or voiced suspicions, your arguments have been very weak. Right now you are saying that you think any other wagon besides yours would be more likely to hit scum, and you say whose wagon you wouldn't be willing to hop on, but you have never done any scumhunting, and you pretty much only vote based on who you think would make a good wagon (or so you've implied when voting, as you've actually said the word "wagon"

every single time

you have voted outside of RVS.).

I don't want to vote for Skyquiem just because it's the

counterwagon

. Unless people think a

wagon

on Furcolow would be better I'm going to go ahead and...Vote: Jenniwren

What I'm going to do is vote Furcolow right now in hope that people will see that it's a better

wagon

than Sky's.

I don't see a

wagon

on Furcolow gaining much traction but he seems to be the most suspicious to me today. Unvote: Vote Skyqiuem

switching to the biggest

counterwagon

. Vote Furcolow

(By the way, I LOVE the dramatic pause when you vote for me... )

My thoughts on your claim:

The way you've approached this game, if you are a roleblocker, and you want people's locations, then I can only think you would be a scum or third-party roleblocker.

Some of your quotes that are still making me scratch my head:

Anyway, scum know that I'm a PR, the PR's know I'm a PR but can't defend me without outing themselves in the process. I really don't want that either.

How do scum AND town PRs know who you are? I've not played mafia as long as some of you, but I've never been in a game where the scum and the town PRs know a PR before a claim or flip. This comment therefore does. not. compute.

Jeez guys... if you look for holes hard enough you will find them. Your only looking for holes because you like to make people feel insignificant to your superior intellect. I will not reply to you. If you want me to reply to you, you don't talk to me like an infant. I'm kinda okay with you believing the opposite because I like to see guys like you get egg on your face.

AtE much? And your claim IS full of weirdness. You aren't addressing their concerns here; all you are doing is complaining that they are questioning your claim. I've seen people treat others like they are stupid in mafia games, and they weren't doing that

at all

.

I suppose the best answer I can give is that if I was lying about my alingment why would I tell the truth about my role. I can't really think of a reason. I'm sure someone could probably concoct a far fetched reason why.

Because scum have roleblockers too? Is that reeeeally SO far-fetched?

I'm trying to figure out the likelyhood of if he is in the game. If it's near enough 100% then I could do something to save myself getting lynched but it doesn't sound like it is certain enough (see coach travis' post)

I wanted to clear myself by claiming a role that was approximatley 100% likely to be in the game in everyone elses opinion. Of corse I'm not disputing that he's less than 100% likely to be in the game. This was so that if it was found out that nobody else was the thiefmaker then I am telling the truth about my claim. See?

So you want everyone else to claim, or to say they aren't the Thiefmaker, and that will validate your claim? You do know that if it's your fakeclaim, no one else will be the Thiefmaker, either. I see that you're saying that to try to prove your claim is legitimate, but you are using a very convoluted explanation to do so, and those lengths only make me think you are flailing.

A no lynch is better than lynching town = fact

Maybe later on in the game...but on D1, it's better to lynch than to not lynch. I'd prefer lynching scum, and I think you are scum, so I'm happy to vote you.

2)Why is my

scum

claim awful?

Not saying it's a slip, since you did write the word "scum" in the sentence preceding this one...but it does rather look a bit like one.

Vote: Palmertrou

You can't blame anyone but yourself for your lynch, as again, you've spent your time in this game doing everything but scumhunting, including the thing about your meta, the inquest into locations, and lots of defense and QQ about your claim...including not one but TWO complaints that people were trying to hard too find holes in your claim (ISOs 22 and 42). (Finding holes is sort of the point of mafia, is it not?)

[jenniwren]

I stand by my vote and my last post. Explaining why you put a vote on someone isn't a bad or scummy thing. (If I hadn't explained, or had I just said I was voting to avoid a no-lynch, you would say that was bad, too, so .) Also, I unvoted you after you claimed the first time because we needed time to discuss your claim. To date, I still think it's a fakeclaim, and I think he's milking twilight for reactions.

What's with the rush to accuse, Parama? You're acting like you know for sure he's going to flip town. Is that to distance yourself further from his scumminess when he doesn't? Or to set you up as a pro-town voice who wanted no part of his lynch if he does? HMMMMM.

[jenniwren]

1) No, it isn't. You have to actually do something in order to be misrepped. I wrote a subjunctive/conditional statement, and since Palmer set it up to accuse me if I hammered, no matter what I did or said when I hammered would matter.
2) I took my vote off Palmer in order to discuss his claim. I never stated otherwise, so whatever impression you were under, you were wrong. He was close to being lynched, so it was safer to unvote him while discussion ensued. It did, and I still don't believe him. I can't speak for why anyone else may have taken their votes off him.
3) I have a scum read on Palmer, and I'm going to assume he flips scum until proven wrong. Also, I'm not slandering you, I'm asking you a question or three. Your rush to begin accusing me right after the hammer is suspicious.

[jenniwren]

Michel, Parama, and CT:

Your "reasons" for voting and/or accusing me are bogus. Michel, if you "have your doubts," you should try asking me (or even reading my other posts where I explained WHY I unvoted Palmer) before just following Parama. CT, I don't know where you are getting that I ever thought Palmer's play was accounted for, unless you're referring to ISO 13, when I said the issues I had with him had been addressed (though that meant by me and other players, not him); after his initial claim, I began doubting my scum read on him, but the more he talked, the less I doubted--did you notice I asked him questions about his claim in that very same post?

Because some people don't read:

I voted for Palmer early in the game because I thought he was the most likely scum and was the best place for a vote. When he claimed a PR, I unvoted him because

I wanted to take the time to discuss his claim and not risk him getting lynched if he was being truthful and not fakeclaiming

. His claim initially made me question my scum read of him, but I was still really suspicious of him, hence why I CONTINUED to question him in my ISOs 13 and 15. His answers never satisfied me, so I voted to lynch him. I wasn't flip-flopping AT ALL...I was weighing his claim against the way he was acting and the things he was saying and I was never able to reconcile any of it. The only person who ever said that I didn't think Palmer was scum was PALMER.

As for the "overly long" hammer post...I wanted Palmer to know why I was voting him. He was saying stuff like I knew he was town and I was scum if I hammered him when I

didn't

know he was town, and hammering him

doesn't

make me scum. He looked like flailing scum to me (especially with the "no lynch is better than townie lynch" in the end), and I wanted to be perfectly clear why he hadn't convinced me otherwise.

In regards to the reason I unvoted and took my time before revoting, in some of my past games, including LOST: S1, Cereal Killers, and Castlevania, we lost PRs because of bad voting practices, fake claims, and opportunistic scum, and town lost all three of those games. I have learned to be more cautious because of events in those games, and I'm not about to leave my vote on a claimed PR until I have had a chance to question that person thoroughly about the claim, but in the end, I reserve the right to revote that person if he or she fails to prove to me that he or she is innocent.

If you want to make a case on me, you need to do better than accuse me of a) being cautious enough to unvote a claimed PR so that we can have a chance to discuss his claim or of b) not believing him after he fails to adequately explain himself. If you want to keep insisting that I'm scum, then you should also explain why you think it's a good idea to risk lynching a claimed PR before his claim is discussed and why voting without giving cause is a pro-TOWN thing to do.

*****

Parama

--

Without

discussing your role at all, and

without

detailing what happened last night, why are you demanding an actual claim from someone you think is town? (i.e., rolefishing)? Be as generic as you need to be in your answer.

--Why do you say you think using meta as defense is crap three times in ISO 17 and then contradict that in ISO 9 and ISO 33? You also say that if there is a wagon on your scumbuddy, you will be on it, and you link to games where you have bussed your buddies. This is a contradiction as it is a meta-defense in response to Furcolow’s accusations.

--Explain this statement:

Palmer adopting Jack's meta just serves as a distraction, though only one that

the town

made it into. Should've just ignored it.

ISO 17 reads like your personal game notes, so yeah...that statement stands out.

--The speed with which you rushed to accuse me for hammering Palmer and to assure everyone that he was obv-town is very questionable...no one other than Palmer himself and scum could have been 100% sure he was town at that point, and he hadn't done much to prove himself at all. What made you so sure Palmer was town at that point? His lack of scumhunting? His inane meta-ploy? His nebulous plan to out out scum by outing everyone's locations? Or was it perhaps his questions about everyone's opinion about the Thiefmaker being a legitimate character in the game/etc.?

Michel

If my unvote is what bothered you, why didn't you say anything about it YESTERDAY? I continued to question Palmer and made it clear my suspicions were still on him even after I unvoted, and you never said anything. In fact, you even acknowledged that I was still suspicious of him two days before the lynch, even though my vote wasn't on him:

I believe the latest vote count and jenniwren's last post show you are mistaken.

Your ISOs 11 and 13 are also full of pro-Palmer lynch statements.

@a2rude, jenni, furcolow, macavity: why aren't you voting anyone so close to deadline? @everyone else: why aren't you voting palmer? He was needlessly information fishing, his claim could easily be a fakeclaim and was full of wrong assumptions, and he's the largest bandwagon at the moment. If you don't think he is a good lynch, why aren't you getting a counterwagon organized?

I question why you waited until D2 to bring up the unvote and make an issue of it, and why you disregarded my ISO 19, where I said "I took my vote off Palmer in order to discuss his claim. I never stated otherwise, so whatever impression you were under, you were wrong. He was close to being lynched, so it was safer to unvote him while discussion ensued. It did, and I still don't believe him. I can't speak for why anyone else may have taken their votes off him." I think you're trying to distance yourself from the mislynch that you were such a strong proponent of by looking for ANY reason you can find to justify blaming someone else for it, which is pretty scummy.

[jenniwren]

1) My opening statement WASN'T the defense. It was an opening statement. Keep READING. I wrote a wall, so if you read it and don't just skip the parts that don't have your name beside them, you might have seen the defense part. In case you won't read it: I hammered someone I thought was scum, and I explained to him why I did it. I didn't flip-flop on him earlier, either...I unvoted so that he wasn't lynched while his claim was still being discussed. Ultimately, I weighed his claim against his behaviors and decided he must be fakeclaiming, so I voted him. If you want me to spell it out even more: I'm town, and I thought I was hammering scum. Obviously I was wrong, just as you are wrong about me.

2) Why would anyone claim just because you told them to? Furthermore...you think it was town, so you're asking a potential town PR to reveal themselves, and THEN you're going to decide if they're town or not?

3) Don't call me a moron; it's completely uncalled for. I don't know your alignment in this game, and your repeated statements that you bus your scumbuddies IF there is a wagon on them were pretty snarky considering Palmer flipped town. As in, they could be read as you being snide about not being on his wagon because he wasn't your buddy. Furc WAS accusing you of being buddies with Palmer, and your insistence that he was wrong, coupled with your statements about meta (both against using it while pointing to your own), struck me as odd, so I questioned it.

4) Fair enough.

5) I thought he was scum after his claim due to the way it was presented. (I've explained why several times.) And so I hammered him. Can you explain the scum-intent of hammering him, i.e., WHY you think hammering him was the "worst thing ever"

other

than the fact that he was town, which I didn't and couldn't have known?

[jenniwren]

Not reading = anti-town.

And I'm not squirming, at ALL. I'm explaining why he's wrong. There's a difference.

[jenniwren]

If you really think I'm scum, then vote me; but I think all the reasons given for voting me so far are bogus and/or opportunistic. Parama is voting me for hammering; Michel is voting me because I unvoted after Palmer claimed so that we could discuss his claim (and he never convinced me it wasn't a fake claim) and revoting later, and you're voting me for writing a wall of text and "squirming." CT is "suspicious" of me for hammering and "flip-flopping," which is also something I never did. Unvoting for the sake of discussion and considering someone's claim, continuing to question them about their claim, and then voting for them after deciding their claim is bogus is NOT flip-flopping.

As for a list, my questions for Parama and Michel are pretty direct; they're obviously the two people I'm most concerned with right now.

[jenniwren]

EBWODP: By the first sentence, I mean, make a case on why you think I'm scum to support your vote.

[jenniwren]

It should be pointed out that a2rude is now at L-1 and should probably claim.

Furcolow:

I learned the hard way not to speculate teams before flips. Right now, I am most interested in questioning Parama and Michel (now charter); I don't want to list my reads on everyone because it a) gives scum a way to manipulate my thoughts about the reads and b) is most of us say we think a certain person is obv-town, it gives the scum incentive to kill them at night.

ThAdmiral:

If you notice up until about midway through D1, Furc was somewhat shadowing me. When I first voted Palmer, he was the most scummy to me, and Furcolow was the second most scummy because of his shadowing. I was focused on Palmer, though, and somewhere in the middle of all of that, Furc claimed (and I'm still reading the first novel, but his claim and what he hinted at makes sense); since then, he's fallen down my list of scum reads. And again, as for the long hammer post, I wanted it to be clear to Palmer that I

did

think he was scum, as he was saying things like he didn't think I actually thought he was scum.

Also, I am only defensive because within like five minutes of D2 I had three votes and one unofficial FoS willing to vote for my lynch for completely bullshit reasons. The speed with which that wagon built is bad, and it hasn't been questioned at all, which also bothers me. A lot.

Parama

: could you please answer these questions:

2) Why would anyone claim just because you told them to? Furthermore...you think it was town, so you're asking a potential town PR to reveal themselves, and THEN you're going to decide if they're town or not?

5) I thought he was scum after his claim due to the way it was presented. (I've explained why several times.) And so I hammered him. Can you explain the scum-intent of hammering him, i.e., WHY you think hammering him was the "worst thing ever" other than the fact that he was town, which I didn't and couldn't have known?

Also:

Parama wrote:Going to go into stuff here:
If palmer is scum, ThAdmiral is most likely buddy
If Sky is scum, Michel and Coach are most likely buddies
If neither are scum, Furc and jenni are scum

Your conclusion about scumteams is based on contingencies. (I started my discussion about this on D1, but never came back to it to explain it fully.) Scum-Parama knows who is and isn’t going to flip scum, so he is safe in saying “If neither Palmer nor Sky is scum, then Furc and jenni are definitely scum.”

To explain/illustrate what I am saying a little more clearly:

It’s like playing Three-Card Monty with a cheating House. You the player have three cards, and you know the House cheated, so you put your hand down on one of them, and instead of flipping

it

, you flip the other two and say “if Card A isn't the Ace, and Card B isn’t the Ace, then the one still turned down, Card C, HAS to be the Ace.” The dealer can’t deny it by flipping Card C or he will be exposed. Same thing here.

By your logic, Palmer and Sky are Cards A and B; I am Card C…but I’m

not

the scum just because Palmer and Sky aren’t, just like Card C

isn’t

the Ace in a game where the House cheats. (Only Sky and Furc may very well be scum; I’m just using a metaphor.) I know I'm town, just as Scum-Parama would know I am town, and to prove his "hypothesis" that I am scum, he would need to flip at least one other "card," and either flip or somehow clear the second one in order to justify flipping me, too. He hasn't presented a case on me other than my hammer was "the worst thing ever" and yet, by the logic of this list, he would be justified in lynching me based on how two other people flip, which is, again, BOGUS.

Michel/charter:

Unfortunately Michel never responded to my comments. However, I am leaning scum on that slot because of the issues I raised in Post 364, and this, which I did not address earlier:

I will switch to a2rude if that turns out to be a stronger wagon.

This is problematic for me because his case on me is terrible, and he's willing to switch to a2rude without making any effort to actually investigate or scumhunt on D2.

However, since he replaced out, I want to see if charter's play changes my mind about the slot. Up until that point, I had had a null read on Michel, so it could just be that his D2 play was affected by things outside the scope of the game.

[jenniwren]

1) But then you've potentially outed a town PR...how does that help town?

2) It wasn't unnecessary; he was saying that I didn't think he was scum, and I did. I thought he was a fakeclaiming scum when I hammered, and I wanted him to know that acting like scum and trying to get by in the end with a fake claim and AtE threats weren't very convincing at all.

3) Why did you hammer him without waiting for a claim? I agree he's scummy, but you just ended the day

way

too soon.

[jenniwren]

When there is still a lot of time for discussion? Yes. DAY is the

only

time TOWN can talk.

To be

ridiculously

obvious, there haven't been any scum flips yet, so those of us who aren't scum have very limited information to work with, and talking, making cases, pressing cases, etc. allows us to gain MORE information, and in this game, having information is precious. Even if he was definitely scum, as in he-made-a-big-post-and-said-he-was-scum kind of confirmed, he still has buddies. Discussion helps us find those buddies. If he's town, then we're down another town voice (even though this one has been useless, his presence as living town works in our favor for numbers), and the scum get to go into night and make decisions to kill

more

town. But you know all of these things.

[jenniwren]

I think he's as useful as a bump on a log, but that doesn't mean that other people won't be doing and saying useful things.

[jenniwren]

Guess what? You're so completely wrong that I'm scum.

[jenniwren]

I've already addressed every point you've made about me; if you're not listening, that's not my problem. You are either being too stubborn to admit you might be wrong (and you are) or you're scum yourself.

[jenniwren]

Yeah, no matter how many times you say it, it's still not true.

[jenniwren]

Your tunneling is so helpful, Parama. I mean, you're obviously always right...look at a2rude....oooooh riiiiight. He was TOWN. Are you READING this game, or just taking potshots?

[jenniwren]

jenni was and has been my #1 suspect for a while now, but I couldn't get her lynched yesterday

That might have been because you ended the day over a week early. You didn't build a case or even try to convince people of anything; don't start this "I couldn't get her lynched" when you didn't even try.

Your whole issue with me has been that 1) I "attacked" Skyquiem early on in the game, but then you decided I was town; next you posted in your incredible wall of fence-sitting text that I was scum because 2) I agreed with everyone else about Palmer's scumminess and 3) if Palmer and Sky were town, then I had to be scum; and FINALLY 4) you're saying that actually explaining why I hammered Palmer is a scumtell.

Why your "case" is crap:

1) Sky was posting fluff when I voted him; you accused me and ML of being scum (and you were wrong on both counts) for voting for him when he was doing something scummy.
2) Palmer was trying to play to someone else's meta; most of us had problems with this. When you accused me of "repeating" what everyone had said, that's not really the case; part of my case was agreeing with other criticisms of his play, and part of it was some of my own observations.
3) See my point about 3-Card Monty and a cheating House. (And your top "team" picks in ISO 17 were Palmer, Sky, then me...when was ML one of your top suspects?)
4) Your quickhammer of a2rude boy is also arguably a scumtell.

You could so easily have scum-motivation for each point:

1) Sky is your buddy and we were on him too soon.
2) You were looking for a reason to cast suspicion on town.
3) You set up a false-dichotomy (and you've totally bumped Sky out of the equation now, see POINT ONE) in which you could set up a mislynch or two.
4) By hammering a2Rude with no explanation, you chose to end the day early and cut off town communication.

If you are town then you are to the point that you are blindly tunneling me which isn't helping us. If you're scum, well, then you obviously have motivation to be playing the way you are, so I'll leave it at that. Either way, I've addressed your "points" about me, and I'm done arguing about it with you. You obviously don't read what I write, but it's all there, and has been, for a while now. If you have anything NEW to say about me, then I will be happy to address that, but I have said all I can possibly say about what you've already said, and at this point, further discussion between us about that is just unproductive filler noise and as well as a huge distraction. You're wrong; I've pointed out how you're wrong, and the choice to continue this argument is wholly yours because I am done.

____________
In other news:
My parents are visiting and I will be

semi V/LA

this week.

[jenniwren]

Parama
Now you're saying I am misrepping you because I actually went through your ISO and pointed out all the times you've accused me of being scum? You said those things and used them to justify calling me scum for almost the entire game. You have also said that I've been one of your top suspects for "a while." How is my listing YOUR given reasons for calling me scummy a misrep, exactly?

I gave my reason AT THE END OF DAY 1 why you were scum. This is BS.

Your reason is that I explained to Palmer why he was getting hammered. That's a bullshit reason. You've been pushing the idea that I was scum for a lot longer than that, though, so don't act like you haven't.

This is the case you made yourself from my words, and it's blatant misrep.
I could simplify it to the fact that you felt a WoT was necessary for a hammer. I hammered right yesterday - how a hammer should be done.

I went through everything you have said to see what your case on me is, and that's what I found. It's NOT a misrep when YOU said it.

You have indicated that I've been your top suspect "for a while," which is more than the time between the hammer and D2. As for the second point, you wish...you didn't even give him time to claim. You've been trying to make a case against me stick from early on.

1) is not part of my case
2) is not part of my case
3) is not part of my case
4) is LOL UNRELATED to my actual argument

#1-3 are all reasons you've said I was scum. #4...is a point you prove in this very post--you hammered Rude as a way you could come back and say you hammered the right way, meaning you're using your very bad quickhammer as a counter-example to my hammer to say you did it right. (Thank you for saying that, though; I was hoping you would admit it at some point.) Lest you forget, you lynched town over a week before deadline without even giving him a chance to claim. HOW, pray tell, is that the "RIGHT" way to hammer anyone?

Assuming this WAS actually my case:
1) Because I would totally lead a counterwagon to Palmer on my scumbuddy.
2) This still isn't part of my case
3) I set up my thoughts that weren't definite but would be good guidelines
4) Arguably, the longer a day drags on, the more likely town is to lynch town. If we let a day drag on to deadline, we might end with a rushed lynch on a townie where it's impossible to tell who's scum on a wagon. Not that a day should be too short, either. But one week is the optimal length of a day in a mini, IMO. So yeah I'm ignoring you. Note that this is still completely different from my accusation against you - it's not THAT you hammered, but HOW you hammered.

1) You've established your love of bussing buddies.
2) It is part of your case; you SAID you thought I was scummy because you thought I was repeating what others said; you brought this back up in your ISO 17.
3) Your guidelines sure look like fence-sitting...again, see my point about 3-Card Monty and a cheating House. Your "teams" are based on presupposed links between people with no evidence to support those links.
4) You seemed to want to avoid a quicklynch on Palmer on D1, yet you are all for a quicklynch on D2. Why the change? You were wrong about Rude, try to remember that.

Again, your case on me is completely overreaching, and if you say that your earlier points on me are NOT part of your case, then you are basing your entire case on the fact that I explained to someone why I was hammering him, which is terrible.

Finally, stop feigning innocence when questioned about your terrible hammer of Rude. He flipped town; you put us into night prematurely, and now we're in LYLO. GFG. Where was your haste to end the day early on D1 if you really believe days shouldn't drag on so long?
_______
Coach...don't assume Parama is in the clear for that hammer; that may be the case, but it could also be the case that he was making a gambit. Considering he has now thrown his quick-hammer back in my face and is using it as an example of an ideal hammer as opposed to my "bad" hammer, it wouldn't surprise me if it did turn out to be a gambit rather than a hasty town hammer.
______
Anyway, I'm still

semi-V/LA

. My parents will be here until Saturday (or Sunday if I can persuade them), so I will try to keep up with the thread but may not be able to until they leave.

[jenniwren]

Furc, first of all, I told Parama I was done with this debate, and he chose to continue it by adding charges of "misrepping" him when I pointed out all of the accusations he has made about me. Would you rather I NOT respond?

Also, I'm investigating someone I think is scummy, and it so happens that he's attacking me. I'm not attacking him because he's attacking me; I'm attacking him because he's making a bullshit case and has been since D1. (You also can't accuse me of tunneling without also accusing him of tunneling, as he's been trying to make something stick against me

since

D1.) He's got a bullshit vote on me, and he went so far as to hammer Rude without rhyme or reason a week before deadline, and today he has tried to justify hammering town without giving him a chance to claim as the "right way to hammer" as opposed to my "bad" hammer on D1. He also says his whole case on me is because I made a long hammer post and has said my pointing out other points he made about me is "misrepping" him.

Calling for my lynch in LYLO because you don't like WoTs is bad, especially when you turn around and tell DJ to replace out for not reading. This is a text-based game. Reading is part of it. Do it or don't play.

As for my scum list: Parama is obviously at the top. He's obviously not scum on his own, but I haven't worked out who his buddies are yet since my second suspect ended up dead with a town flip this morning which threw off the ideas I had at the end of the day yesterday, but I wouldn't be surprised if DJ was scum as well. Sky began the game under a shadow, then lurked like a pro, and DJ's comment about not reading a rather short game doesn't help his case. (I'm in a game that went over 2000 posts and 80 pages on D1, so I'm short on sympathy when it comes to complaints about too much reading.) As for the third, I don't know yet. Like I said, I was leaning Parama-Michel last night, and Sky was my unnamed third choice, but with Michel/charter's town flip, I am having to reevaluate everyone right now.

[jenniwren]

I'm not fucking scum because I don't win this game unless all threats (I.E., SCUM) to Camorr are eliminated. And no, my being town doesn't mean the game is a lost cause unless you somehow manage to convince everyone to lynch me which would mean town loses.

The obscene lack of scumhunting actually going on is pretty terrible, however. It's pretty stagnant in here considering we're in LYLO and there are probably three scum alive. Speaking of...

Ben wasn't alignment confirmed in his flip; his flavor seemed town, but no one has even commented on it. Any ideas or comments on that? What are we facing?

[jenniwren]

I haven’t technically spelled out all of the things I’ve accused Parama in an actual case yet, but here are the points I have raised about him so far. (I tried to be concise, but there are a lot of points.) In a sentence: Parama has acted solely with scum-motivation in this game.

1.Fence-sitting and BS: ISO 17;
2.Massive amounts of complaints about pace of the game in ISOs 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, and 11, yet does nothing to remedy that (semi-active lurking);
3.Contradicts himself about the usefulness of meta-defenses; see my points in my ISO 20 (second point under heading “Parama”) and 21 (Point 3). Note: he calls me a moron for pointing this out;
4.Creates a bogus case on me, saying I am scum for explaining why I hammered someone who was accusing me of not really thinking he was scum;
5.Tried to out a PR first thing on D2;
6.Continues to say that his only case on me is that I hammered “badly” but in ISO 49 says that he’s still going by his list from ISO 17;
7.When I point out all the times he has accused me of being scum, he says I’m misrepping him and that his only case on me is the Palmer hammer. (Which came WELL after his ISO 17, which he is “sticking to.”);

8.His hammer on Rude? You know, the one he made before Rude could claim, a week before the end of the day, which resulted in the immediate death of one confirmed town and one assumed town and then a NK of a confirmed town? Yeah. And then he has the audacity to come back on D3 and say throw it in my face that his hammer was “good” and mine was “bad” (ISO 82)? (I’m saying it was a scum gambit meant for exactly that purpose, though it also made CT and probably others think he was obv-town because scum wouldn’t do something that horrible.)

9.I'm still alive. He will say this is because I'm scum; but since I know that I'm NOT, that means that if he isn't scum, the scum team has neglected to vote for me and win the game in the full day and a half that his vote has been sitting on me and would therefore be the stupidest scum team on earth, which they aren't (Parama just got impatient waiting for a townie to vote for me and jumped the gun.). This means he is scum and he and his buddies just need one townie to vote for me, and then they will both vote for me as well, thus ending the game.

[jenniwren]

Parama

(PbP response, sans quote wall for the sake of brevity)

1. And it was a lot of fence-sitting BS.
2. You

were

up until that point, well into the game.
3. You can believe a lot of things, like the moon is made of green cheese, but that doesn't make it true or valid.
4. Outing a PR won't help you know those "important things," and you would have potentially outed a PR, which ISN'T good for town.
5. It's scummy because you accuse me of misrepping you when I point out that you've been trying to build a case on me from early on D1, and you SAY your whole case on me is the hammer, but you also say you are standing by your scum list made WELL before the hammer ever happened, which is a contradiction.
6. How can you make accusations without a case? Otherwise you're making arbitrary lists with no evidence, and you need evidence to support a lynch.
7. Like I said before...you can "think" something is true all you want, but that doesn't mean you're right. You cut off town communication in the middle of the day because you "thought" you were right? You were obviously wrong, and you still can't recognize you might be wrong about other people, too? Your hammer was full of scum intent, from the ending of town talk to the fact that you are still coming back and throwing it in my face. You should have waited for him to claim, and your hammer, for all it's brevity, was a HORRIBLE move for town.
8. There's no bias in this...I'm not scum. I KNOW I'm not scum, and I KNOW you have been making terrible accusations about me from D1. I also KNOW you made a terrible hammer on Rude because you "thought" he was scum. If you aren't scum, I would be lynched already. Every other player has been online since you voted for me on THURSDAY, and none of them have voted. This isn't bias...this is fact.

_____
YOUR "case" is bad because the only reason I made a long post when I hammered Palmer was because he kept saying things like he didn't think I believed he was scum, and that if I hammered him, then I was scum. I wanted him to know exactly why I was voting for him, and that I believed he was scum. Maybe in his next game he won't make the same mistakes as town OR scum. There isn't anything wrong with explaining to someone why you vote for them.
_____

I'll humor you for a moment and pretend you're not scum. I'm NOT scum, so if you're also not scum, that would mean BM would have

had

to have been scum, because if you aren't scum, then the ONLY reason I wouldn't have been lynched by now is if there are only two remaining scum in the game. They obviously need a town member to hit two votes so that they can finish the job...with your "town" vote on me, all they need is for one other person to be convinced before they can achieve their goal.

If you are town, you need to unvote me and reconsider this game and look for real scum. We're in LYLO, and you've already screwed up once because you were so sure you were right, so you should probably use some caution now.

[jenniwren]

Keep it in your pants, Furc; you are way too interested in lynching right away. I haven't been online at all in a few days, and I'm only catching up now. Sorry I missed my "turn" in the popcorn claims. Also, I think we should still hold off on voting...no one has really discussed any of the claims yet, and there is a LOT to talk about.

1)

I'm not sure why everyone decided it was such a great idea to name claim, as there is either a major flavor scramble or fake claims in this game, and names don't really clear anyone anyway. It's very interesting to me that no one questioned the wisdom of this; there was no discussion, from anyone, and that everyone has just revealed themselves to everyone else without so much as a by your leave confirms the presence of flavor scramble/fakeclaims. Also, Parama has spent most of this game calling Furc a VI or something similar, and yet when Furc suggests a name claim, Parama goes along with it? Hrm.

My thoughts on the name claims:

Parama/Bug and ThAdmiral/Galdo:

one or both are fake. We know Locke, Jean, and Calo are (were) in the game; the chances of all five GBs being here? I'm not so sure, though. Furc...why wouldn't Locke give good fake claims?

If ThAdmiral, Furc, and DJ are being truthful, then we have two couples in the game, and the chances of all members of both pairs being town aligned are slim to none. Because Ben is dead (and his alignment unknown), there are questions about Calo and Galdo. Also, DJ and Furc don't seem to have information about one another; we don't know if that was the case with ThAd and Ben.

DJ and Furcolow:

Wouldn't be surprised if one of them was third party or scum. Furc's character is an alchemist; this plays into DJ's idea that the Wraithstone could be her handiwork as well.

DDD:

Mixed reaction. Furc, why don't you believe it? It's misspelled in the claim, (Reynar

t

should be Reynar

d

) but he is a real if relatively minor character in the book (which is where my mixed reaction comes from).

CT:

Surprisingly, his claim of a known villain makes him less scummy to me; think about it...WIFOM? Yes...but legitimate WIFOM given that either there is a major flavor scramble or we have fake claims in play.

2)

DDD, I have to disagree with some of your PoE. You have me as a potential partner for CT mainly because I haven't mentioned him much. Need I remind you I have been somewhat distracted by Parama and his bullshit argument since the end of D1? I was focused on Palmer on D1 and Parama since then...oh yeah, and PARAMA ended D2 a bit early, lest you forget, so a lot of discussion was cut short that day.

3)

DJ finally pointed out that no one is saying anything about the obviously terrible hammer on Rude. Other town are being far too passive and/or are not paying attention to things like this. We're in fucking LYLO because of that hammer, so people should be asking more questions and not just throwing out votes and tunneling and trying to end the day.

4)

I will make a full name and role claim (something I've been debating doing for a while anyway), but I'm going to save my claim just a little bit longer, because I want some more information and reactions to this post first. Try not to be too impatient in the interim.

[jenniwren]

4) I will make a full name and role claim (something I've been debating doing for a while anyway), but I'm going to save my claim just a little bit longer, because I want some more information and reactions to this post first. Try not to be too impatient in the interim.

[jenniwren]

Jenni goes on to speculate...because she's trying to figure out who is lying, which is also why she's holding back her own role-related information at the moment.

Speculation is based on the information we've been given, and the lack of hesitation people have had in sharing their role names confirms to me that there are most likely fake claims in play. (Flavor scramble...maybe, but because Locke and Jean have both flipped town, that's a little more unlikely.) If people have fake claims, however, then they are more confident that their claims will be believed and therefore have no qualms sharing them. This is NOT about outguessing the mod...it's about how watching people play in this situation and judging who is most likely to be lying.

Would people have the same enthusiastic reaction if there had been a call for a mass full claim, or would they have used more caution? Why?

DJ: I have a very good reason to hold off, and I will explain when I do claim.

[jenniwren]

Everyone: Obviously no one is going to respond to my question about how things would be different if the request had been for full claims instead of name claims?

Basically, I have held off on making my claim because I wanted to see how people would react to my not claiming (great response from Furc, who has no reason to lynch me other than a) he doesn't like reading a lot and b) I haven't claimed...) and to see what information could be gained from discussion in the interim.

Also, I am full claiming now for a few reasons:
a) I was roleblocked last night, which means scum already know I have a night action and will either roleblock me or kill me tonight, so there is a pretty good chance my ability is useless anyway;
b) I want to share what I can before night in case they do kill me tonight. I also think that if town has the little bit of extra information I do that maybe we can work together better to figure it all out because I've taken it as far as I can on my own.
c) For me, nameclaiming is essentially the equivalent of full claiming anyway.

I'm Dona Angiavesta Vorchenza, the Spider, Head of the Midnighters, and Town Jailkeeper.

1.

I am the

Spider

, head of Don Nicovante’s secret police force, the Midnighters, and I am immune to investigations of identity (in keeping with flavor). I live in the Amberglass Tower. Each day I can name someone to be brought in for questioning at night, and that person will be jailed overnight.

At first, I thought the questioning role worked like a cop ability, with an answer provided by the mod, but learned on D2 that the answers to my questions are really provided by the person I question and not the mod.

Therefore, any answer I receive is

unreliable

. [/b]

2.

On N1, I questioned Parama and asked him if he was a loyal citizen of Camorr. He said he was, but it's fairly obvious that I didn't believe him due to the unreliability of the questioning process and his behavior since N1.

There are several reasons I think Parama is scum (I've laid out the case before); one of the most compelling is that his vote was on me for over a day, and everyone else posted and had NOT voted for me, which made it look like he was trying to get a town to hop on my wagon so his buddies could finish me off. If he were town, there would be no reason for the three of them to wait to cast the damning three votes on me, thus ending the game in their favor. (I've already written all of this theory up, though, so you can read it in my ISO.)

3.

On N2, I tried to bring Charter in for questioning, but was roleblocked. Because of the unreliability of the question/answer situation, I was going to ask him who he thought was scum in hopes his answers would at least give me a more substantial read on him than my first question had given me on Parama.

4.

I know that I was roleblocked by scum on N2, as the chance of there being more than two town blockers (as Palmer and I both hold/held a roleblocking position) in a mini is slim to none.

5.

Whoever the scum RB is (can’t be Parama as he was in jail on N1), I’m pretty sure they blocked Michel on N1 as there was no vig kill. This would also give the scum motivation to kill him on N2, as they would know they had successfully blocked him and would therefore know that he HAD a night action and had to be a PR.

I’m also sure the scum figured out on D2 that I had the PR that messed up Parama’s night on N1 based on my repeated comments about Parama’s demand that the PR reveal themselves, and that this is why I was blocked on N2.

*****

Basically, I'm skeptical of DDD's claim because of my own role, and I still think Parama is very suspicious because of his play (also because he's lying about "knowing" I am scum, because I'm not), and CT has been consistently waffling (among other things) throughout the game. At any rate, I'm definitely not ready to place a vote yet.

Flavorwise, what we know about scum is that they most likely live Raven's Reach and use Wraithstones. Other than that, I think they are hiding behind fakeclaims.

One last thing: CT, why did you not use your extra vote on Palmer when it looked like it would be a no-lynch unless I hammered? You were on the wagon, so presumably you believed he was scum, so you shouldn't have had any reservations about making sure he was lynched, and no one would have known, right?

[jenniwren]

Parama

I jailkept you because I thought you were scummy, and I wanted to question you.

CT

1) Yeah, NOW do you understand one of the reasons why I thought Palmer was full of crap when he was talking about his role?

2) Jailkeeper isn't just a roleblocker...it's also a protective role. I used it as a roleblocker, but I could have kept someone I thought was in danger of being killed, too. My role also has an investigative quality, unreliable as that is (and now useless, even if I'm not roleblocked or killed tonight). On N1, I didn't have a solid enough read on someone to protect, and on N2, I wanted to keep Charter because he a) hadn't gotten a chance to talk yet (go back and read what I was going to ask him), and b) I thought Michel was coming off a little scummy on D2.

Everyone

I'm also leaning toward a two-man scum team right now based on voting patterns, and if I'm right, then either Ben was scum or there is a third-party. With CT's ability, be careful who you vote for until we're ready for a lynch, though.

[jenniwren]

I submitted my action during twilight, after you hammered Rude. When day began, I had no result from the questioning, and Charter was dead. Therefore, I believe I was roleblocked; otherwise, I would have had some result, and more importantly, Charter would have been alive. I'm guessing Charter probably received the question and all would have proceeded as normal until the scum sent in their night actions, in which case it didn't matter that I had questioned him.

[jenniwren]

There are only about twelve hours to go, so we need to get this done.

Vote: Coach Travis

I agree with DDD that in any of the scenarios I've considered, he would is the only one who fits in each of them.

[jenniwren]

GFDI...

I KNEW DDD was scum, but I talked myself out of it. I should have stuck to my gut...I KNEW your fake claim was fake...GFDI...