1025 Tarot Mafia (Over!)

[DTMaster]

/confirmed

[DTMaster]

Oh shoot I forgot to subscribe to this topic. Rereading begins now.

[DTMaster]

I apologize. Starcraft 2 will be the death of me >>;; Anyways. DTManalysis time stream of consciousness style. I'll comment while I post. Since UK dislikes quote walls, I'll URL everything.

1. I claim I am female.
2. I only played the Persona games and had a Tarot card reading done on me. I had both the Sun and the World Arcana appear in a 3 card reading. Yay me.

/ Pre-game Fluff

3. I find it odd people were confused by their roles. I thought it was clear based on what you were and what your cards were. I mean look at the sample PM on page 1.

4. Animorph flavour hunting is bad. The card for Death often means change. The card for Fool doesn't literally mean fool, more so inexperienced. People are going to jump on the death/tower/devil cards but they don't literally mean what they are (but if you do get a reversed reading from all 3, it'll be weird). So this doesn't help.

(IHMO the first page has the basic role PM now, so... fake claims are easy since it looks like cards are just independent of the role)

6. Animorph Um.. this game doesn't mention anywhere were we have unique cards or even have duplicates. Look at the PM, XXX was blessed by YYY and ZZZ. We could have multiple of the same card in play. If two people later on claim the same card, we can have one claim the full action and the other claim the reverse action.

I'll soft claim that

one of my cards doesn't do the opposite action in the reverse form from the normal action.

7. Wait, did SC just jump on the Ani vote wagon right after reading "finding intent within in posts" banter with UK/Ani. I assume you can address why this doesn't answer the reasoning for your Mod-WIFOM argument. I see that you dropped the role fishing argument later on when Ani repeats that he's trying to stop fake claims within cards.

8. Ythill, I find this post odd especially since Switz's post at the time is legit. I don't see the logic behind this.

9. SC I really find this terrible. I thought we addressed these issues when UK brought them up the first time. Answer the above question in 7. Why was the intent banter null against your Mod-Wifom argument. I thought you dropped the role fishing argument after the second time Ani was fishing out potential ways to stop fake claims. I was wrong apparently. I'd consider lynching you.

10. Ythill. Switz is being attacked for this logic see in the above posts (link on number 8 above where Switz attacks SC when SC attacks Switz for voting in the pregame). Yet you are willing to jump on the Switz wagon for what reason? Oh right mystery reasons. If I was a cop I'd totally investigate you now. I would go meh if you died now.

Note to self, untill the first vote count be a little less lenient on players. I'd totally day kill Reck for the GUYS PART 2 SPAMMAGE.

11. I'd probably should have day killed NS for the post after link 10. Terrible.

12. NS is a good kill. You kill anti-town elements. You lynch scummy elements. Yes what I said was mutually exclusive.

13. Face palm. This Switz wagon is way out of the blue. Problem a.

Ythill's distancing theory. Because You are quite popular, it's also just as likely that tunneling on Switz a secondary lynch candidate for you is a great way to buddy with the Ythill. The fact that Switz uses your argument here shows selective scum hunting form you. Switz uses this exact logic on SC whom he attacks later (see my earlier posts). But you ignore the banter between Switz and SC. This makes it more likely coming from a SC/Ythill scum team then anything.

Problem b. I don't see the rolefishing here.Mitsuru. Way to not be specfic. Ani jumps on with the role fishing argument. The whole 24 major arcana and 1 card = scum theory was something that has been brought up by multiple people, but Switz gets the heat for repeating this. Not Ythill. Not SC. Etc. If you're arguing that Switz is role fishing for the single card players to get more vocal, I don't see the scum motivations for this.

Scum want to kill protective roles and investigative roles. When someone claims a card or having two cards, you are claiming PR in a non-vanilla game. Therefore as scum, if you literally shoot in the dark you'd kill someone that has a power that could screw your team over

.

Cards/Arcana claims =/= role fishing. The fishing elements is null in this argument. This is terrible.

Break time.

My Scum list:

But if I could day kill: NS/Reck
If I could investigate: Ythill
If I could Lynch: SC/ (maybe Mitsuru at this point, will require some rest)

If I could day kill include the lynch list, but the day kill list contains my anti-town reads. The investigate contains my gut-scum reads. The lynch contains my scum reads. I make these lists to indicate the level of scumminess of a person.The most feedback I get is that I am directing PRs in a game. If you are X role (as in investigation role or killing role) I am not directing you. Use your own darn lists. If you are following my lists, your scum hunting confidence is very low.

Aside:

I realized something.

Basically, each card has 2 powers. The normal power (first listed) and the reverse power (second listed). Upon using either of these, you lose the other power attached to your card. You may use a card at any single time, but bear in mind effects vary depending on when you play:

Day actions are, for the most part, instant actions, but obviously less subtle, because then I announce a card has been consumed in the next votecount.

Check each vote counts. I assume that each day when a Card is announced someone played one of their actions. Therefore someone has Death played on them.

Vote Strangercoug

I have more pending questions for him over Mitsuru.

[DTMaster]

Apologize, I have been busy and I have a draft saved. I'll try and post later today.

[DTMaster]

I'm at work again. So I'll post what I have for now and go from there.

1. Ok now you are super stretching the card theory. Switz Any basis for the 1 card = scum theory is terrible. Read the first page. Assume every player has 2 power ups at least, given with the mod confirmed information. You're pretty much asking for a number claim, which terrible. It's painting people with more cards with targets for NKs.

2. Ani, that's not really a valid test. Unless Reck actually caps lock furies UK I wouldn't consider it a pass.

3. Jarti. I face palm at your entry post. Since you replaced NS I'm upgrading you to lynch level scumminess. You still deserve to be shot.

4. "Ythill is obv town" is a scummy reason to vote for someone Reck. It should be "Switz is obv scum". But I don't see that here. You should be shot for that post alone.

5. MK, I find it odd that you think this is role fishing here. especially since his post is basically "role fishing" scum. It's probably an inaccurate theory based on what we know about Dram's flavor and standardized role PM (see first post), nor is he actually asking people for number claims. You're taking huge offense to the "one card theory is role fishing", when we already discredit that it's hardly a way to prove people's alignment.

Why are you so hung up over this one card theory, when Switz only kept on going with the one card theory?

6. I Lol at Faces = scum tell.

7. Reck you have something special with Dram mod, not me.

8. Who ever played death should only fess up if: a they are comfortable with it and/or b. if they are L-1 to hammer. So Reck and Ythill gains super bonus scum points for asking someone

to early claim

. Remember the role fishing and painting targets. Remember how I said that scum likes to go for specific persons in terms of PRs. Yeah good job in telling scum where to shoot kthnksbye.

Ythil. Shame on you for

painting the target on the death card player especially.

9. Switz, scum targeting of protective/investigative roles first is obvious. >>;;. I mean any competent scum would kill the people that are the most dangerous to them in the game. I just finished this game where I caught 2/3 mafia as Sane cop, pretending to be an Insane cop. Add on a tracker and FATE and we win. :3

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14737

[DTMaster]

1. Ythill, I face palm. Hint: There is Irony in your statement when you cross refrence to the quote you posted. That should be enough information for you to move on scummy person. Especially when you cross reference with the last sentence.

Also you are pressuring scum to shoot one of your confirmed town reads over one of your unknown PR reads just because of role power, over scum hunting status. That to me is ringing alarm bells of scumminess. I dislike that.

2. Capn, if the Death player has a second card he isn't a VT. If he was then there wouldn't be a reason for him to not to claim.

Quick thoughts while I'm on break.

[DTMaster]

The support on getting Death player to claim is terrible. Death player should claim on his own terms over the town terms.

[DTMaster]

Death player is getting a Yth town seal of approval. That is contradictory to scum play.

- DTM on iPhone .

[DTMaster]

The death card played would have to be inheritly be antitown and Yth would be lying about his seal of approval for that kind of reverse trap to work. Or they are scum buddies.

[DTMaster]

If Yth is being sincere, then he action was pro-town and hypothetical scum death is playing poorly ignoring brownie points. I'd be more suspicious of the guy who buddies with the claim over the guy who doesn't want to claim. The scum advantage is greater when he's in control at the seat of influence. But he's ignoring it, and that makes no sense as scum.

[DTMaster]

UK think about the fact that scumdeath will draw uncessary attention if they claim the death brownie points later on. This drama is uncessary to the player.

[DTMaster]

I'm saying the opposite UK. Scum-death user is drawing unnecessary attention, and giving up unnecessary brownie points for using Death positively in such a way Ythill grants his seal of approval.

Why wouldn't you claim brownie points by Ythill before Ythill claimed the uber kill the vanilla townie game

. Even if scum-death lives, it's atributed first to the fact that the said person became vanilla in a

non vanilla game

.

If scum is hesitant to claim

why would they do a pro-town action on a person but not claim the brownie points from it

. Your logic makes no sense that way.

[DTMaster]

If Ythill was town, as scum it would be benifical to claim the brownie points. If it's a trap that means

the card used had an anti-town effect and Ythill is lying to do an obvious trap.

.

[DTMaster]

FYI, that means if Ythill dies mysteriously and flips town without any rebuttal from Ythill, death-scum is much more plausable then now. >>;;

[DTMaster]

Death was played. Evidenced by my quote of Dram that

day actions are shown in the vote count

.

a. If Death is a target then the one person who can confirm that is Ythill. If this was a pro-town action it explains the confirmation, and the pro-town seal of approval. If it was anti-town, then the person who played death knows this and Ythill knows this. Therefore Ythill or if he's connected to someone, Ythill is speaking on behalf of someone of said recipient of said action. This is the most logical conclusion.

b. If death is a target all, we will all know this.

c. If Death is a passive card, we already know cards are one-shot abilities and that means someone day actioned and it did something. Therefore two cards must have been played already. Therefore Ythill is claiming that he caused death to be used up or he knows that someone caused death to be used up. This makes no sense and it's a kin to outing BP players. That's horrible and makes no sense from Ythill's end.

[DTMaster]

The last one is, scum-death is played the card on someone who hasn't claimed this and Ythill is gambiting this by claiming he can prove people's innocence. This gambit is silly for:

a. If Ythill dies now, he clears a scum person with his last words.
b. If Scum actioned death on an unclaimed person, both his target and scum are partners at least because we have someone unclaimed to the recipient of death. This will also put us off the trail of said person.

[DTMaster]

If this was a trap, that means scum death, the target and Ythill are mutually exclusive.

[DTMaster]

Actually it'll question into Ythill. If Ythill was lying just to out the guy who played death, that's role fishing. I'd be more suspect of Ythill over "scum-death" in this case.

[DTMaster]

There are other reasons why Death-town wouldn't want to claim this, even with Ythill's seal of approval. This debate is best reserved for the claim though, if it survives till then.

[DTMaster]

Also see why I want Reck shot to death. har har har. :p

[DTMaster]

Today's Card: The Queen of Pentacles

Today's Card has been changed to: Death

Not really if Dram announces what cards are played in the day. If 2 cards are played both the Queen of Pentacles and Death were played.

[DTMaster]

I'll finish my analysis post soon. I skimmed over SC's answer and will respond and change my vote once I absorb and reread again without current responses. So my next post will be slightly broken but contain more analysis and less theory.

[DTMaster]

I'm making my draft but I have to post this while I'm finishing my wall of responses.

Holy crap, my scumdar just went off.

YTHILL WHAT THE CRAP DUDE

If you can role confirm Switz, as town we can direct Switz. If Switz is scum, we have him on a leash. If Switz is town we still have him on the leash and he'll listen to us. If Switz is scum and doesn't follow the town, you catch him. You pushing the Switz lynch as of now rings my scumdar.

[DTMaster]

Switz is not the correct lynch today due to the checks and balances that Ythill just claimed. Likewise, Switz becomes a counter balance to Ythill if Switz is town. Anyone who disagrees better have a good reason for it otherwise they are ridiculously scummy.

[DTMaster]

Says the guy who just unvoted. /snarkyness

Leashing is always a risk, and Switz can play his other card in the mean time if he was scum (slight down side to the plan). But IHMO if you can role confirm/control someone, we're good despite any downsides to emperor. This also confirms the theory that: multiple of the same cards are in play. UK's suspicion of any Death users is more warranted now.

[DTMaster]

Actually Ythill: I'm contrasting these two statements.

Switz: Damnit, I don't want the Emperor played today, like I already said. It probably will not matter anyway,

because it will not go into affect until night and, with you being dead,

it may not have any effect at all. I'm wondering if I should change my plans and keep you alive to play it...

WTF? I stopped pushing it as soon as he claimed his cards.

Note that I can only confirm the Emperor card. And I'm still not sure leashing him is a good idea. The Emperor has a decent chance of hurting the town no matter how he plays it and, if we set ourselves up against it, it will have no benefit. I know that probably doesn't make sense ATM, but to explain in detail would be anti-town. (BTW, some of this is speculation on my part, but it is based on solid facts.)

You want Swtiz dead. Nice. But you stopped pushing on him how again? Read the parts in bold.

Unvote, Vote Ythill

[DTMaster]

Apologize. I seem to lost my draft :<. Was editing it since I made it at 3 am. I'll re post a new one in the near future.

Immediate responses.

Ythill, both you and Switz claimed Emperor.

Switz play Emperor tonight to how you see fit

. Ythill, confirm Switz uses emperor.

If you can confirm Switz used Emperor

, boom multiple cards of the same arcana are in play. If there is a contradiction in claims, then boom we caught scum.

Mod I vote yes to a 1 week deadline extension

.

Leashing Switz but OKING his lynch defeats the purpose of the leash. Everyone on this wagon is gaining scum points for

not pointing why leashing him is less of a priority then lynching Switz. This is terrible

[DTMaster]

Ythill, the moment you stopped pushing on Switz was when you unvoted. You still played with the idea of Switz lynch up to that point even if you were reconsidering how to handle the claim. The post before the vote had you on : Lynch Switz mode. That is not stopping your push Ythill. You said the "claim doesn't matter and the effects of Emperor doesn't matter (most likely, as you are unsure if it'll work if he does die) if

he was going to be dead.

Oh wait maybe you should reevaulate your plans. After you mostly judge him to be dead.

You've stopped attacking Switz directly. You didn't stop pushing for his death. You only stopped after with the unvote, then now with the leash plan. Your actions =/= the intent of your post.

In fact to reduce errors (my above plan is quite bad now that I think about it) Direct Switz

only to a pool of people and confirm said target from the pool of people. Then we will judge.

[DTMaster]

1. Switz confirm if also if Emperor is only night action.

[DTMaster]

Mod can you give an extension of 1 week?

. My analysis burns me out.

[DTMaster]

Sorry. University and trying to catch up in other games has made me tired. I'm behind all around here.

1. Oh you didn't "claim Emperor", except you can confirm it and you know what it does. >>;;. Besides the point, Emperor is the current card

so can you confirm that for now Ythill?

2. Switz. I wanted you to confirm some details. Your post here, confirms Ythill's quote here

3. Oy. Jarti your vote on me has terrible reasoning. If you wanted I can summarize my stuffs for you if you asked.

Which posts are unberable to read sir?

4. Um.. Jarti <3ed SCs death.

Note to self, reread ML because something about it gives me a headache but Genetics has been exhausting to me.

[DTMaster]

Dram is this correct?

Magnus_Orion, Guilty Woman and bearer of the Fortune and Chariot
StrangerCoug, Innocent Man and bearer of The Justice and Chariot

Front page versus what was flipped here.

[DTMaster]

err, Mod read above

[DTMaster]

But either way, I chose to use the Emperor's reverse ability, in which all females targeting females will fail

Ythill/Swtiz this is correct? Does that mean Females can still target males? If the second question applies that doesn't mean the scum who shot is in the masculine pool (and Ihmo isn't a really good starting point to find the buddy)

If you can confirm that abilitiy also applies to all active abilities the confusion about cards/versus kills will be solved (and Ihmo kills that are card derived wouldn't be friendly to scum and absolutely devastating).

The point about confirming role information was to hold Ythill accountable from your perspective Switz and vise versa. Any conflicting role information that is derived from Emperor can lead to finding scum. Hence I wanted you guys to be clear about that.

[DTMaster]

@Socrates
Explain that theory? I outlined why I thought death was played earlier last day (See one of my original posts quoting dram and the vote count that publically stated Arcana changes and I was one of the original people who brought this up.)

@Ythill
The gender claim at the start of the day brings a whole new meaning to analysis. :p. I'm going to reread during the weekend fully.

[DTMaster]

WAIT I HAVE IMPORTANT INFORMATION

.

1. Socrates did you use your empower card yet? This is important and I can circumvent Shotty's Sun arcana (by a little bit) if you didn't.

2. I'm claiming I did not target anyone last night so I didn't use any cards last night.

[DTMaster]

This is important. I have a slight chance to stop Shotty's card on you and get a town derived lynch through even though Shotty played his card. Unvote Jarti now. Anyone who hammers before this question is answered is scum.

[DTMaster]

Also If Shotty is scum he played very stupidly. His Sun Arcana would best be done in lylo as a surprise. Scum motivations aside, this kind of play doesn't read as scum because it can be used as a cheap win later on. It's sending mixed signals to me.

[DTMaster]

Can you delete the PM? and I wouldn't redirect it. I might have a small chance of blocking it because my blocking card is unique. I can cause a town derived lynch through other means of my second card.

[DTMaster]

Ok I'll claim how town can get a town derived lynch. I was saving this claim because I was suspicious of Ythill but I would rather not lose a day's worth of information.

I played Death yesterday, and I want you to empower my death card Socrates because the normal card is a kill action. Yesterday I played the reverse action which I won't explain and Ythill can confirm it in one of the following bread crumbs.

I have 3 levels of bread crumbs to prove it.

1.

I apologize. Starcraft 2 will be the death of me >>;;

Anyways. DTManalysis time stream of consciousness style. I'll comment while I post. Since UK dislikes quote walls, I'll URL everything.

I mentioned this in my first post. This is when I played death.

2. I was the first person to brought up Dram changed the Arcana to Death.

I softclaimed that I confirmed that information then

3. This is my new level of breadcrumb. Remember Ythill this quote?

8. Who ever played death should only fess up if: a they are comfortable with it and/or b. if they are L-1 to hammer. So Reck and Ythill gains super bonus scum points for asking someone to early claim . Remember the role fishing and painting targets. Remember how I said that scum likes to go for specific persons in terms of PRs. Yeah good job in telling scum where to shoot kthnksbye.

Ythil. Shame on you for painting the target on the death card player especially.

1. Ythill, I face palm. Hint: There is Irony in your statement when you cross refrence to the quote you posted. That should be enough information for you to move on scummy person. Especially when you cross reference with the last sentence.

I mentioned the key phrases of: You were painting the target on the death card user so I condemned you. I also mentioned that there was a level of irony when you mentioned scum had to choose between killing the death player and a person with cards.

There was a reason why I didn't want to claim this early because I felt that you were scum

because you mentioned that scum should target the death card user

. My argument would claim the effect of the Death card reverse action (and you can use your imagination and no it's a different way of preventing death then you think) why specifying the target to be the death card user by scum is a poor move.

[DTMaster]

Err EBWOP: DTM in the first quote.

[DTMaster]

I'm also getting confirmation because my other card can block (and "its unique to a block") and could resolve before Shotty's actions. If it's true and Dram changes the Arcana to Sun I will block Shotty.

[DTMaster]

Hence

Socrates, empower my Death Card and I will let the town get a town derived kill even if a force lynch occurs

.

[DTMaster]

FYI: Ythill you should see that beyond the surface irony of our original conversation, there was a subtle hidden message in that exchange I was conveying. It was a tip to you.

[DTMaster]

Last night I used my "special block". Upon reading it it may involve some bussing elements. Reck can you claim if you actioned last night and if it was sucessful to your knowledge? It might be a good idea to mass claim night actions.

[DTMaster]

Cavat: only if you night actioned.

Dram what's today's Arcana?

[DTMaster]

There are a few things that could have happened last night, but Dram needs to answer the question first. I might be able to answer why there was no kill only if Reck can claim if he actioned (due to bussing reasons, etc, etc.)

[DTMaster]

Guys I played the High Priestess. I obv targetted Reck. The block is a Jailkeep.

[DTMaster]

There is more then one reason for the lack of death. Hence why I didn't out right vote Reck.

[DTMaster]

Except why shouldn't we claim cards if we are claiming action. Like I said. One of my card's reverse action (the high priestess) does an entirely different action from the normal action (but it still involves some element of the jailkeep and it's not a reverse Jailkeep). Scum can't fake claim cards and if they do the actions can be confirmed. As well there is no reason to even fake claim cards, there is only the reason to fake claim actions as scum.

My jailkeep claim already gives 2 reasons for why the kill failed on Reck alone.

[DTMaster]

Ythill. Which gender did you block last night? This might eliminate some actions from the reasons why a kill did not occur.

[DTMaster]

I have an idea. Prox would I it be benificial to play the reverse side of your double lynch card? I'd much rather ensure your lynch card is out of play since it forces early lylo.

[DTMaster]

Oh. Forgot to answer. My jailkeep is a full jailkeep. It blocks all abilities normally according to the PM.

[DTMaster]

Well if the card is played to force early lylo we would know right away. I'd rather hold the card accountable early on. Somehow I don't think Shotty and Prox are on the same scum team ( they would have coordinated the cards better). Something nags at me though one of the two are scum jusT based on the lynching cards.

Edit: Hmmmmmm your card is in check based on Drams arcana announcement. So long as you follow the will of the town, then I could see this as an ok check.

[DTMaster]

You completely resets the VC or it ends in no lynch.

[DTMaster]

I would use that in mylo. (vote count reset) or even numbers (statistics on mafia:)

[DTMaster]

You do realize that causing a nolynch in a non-mylo situation even if it's on yourself works against your goal of surviving Prox. If you are scummy enough to be on the bandwagon to reach L-1, it just looks bad for the next day and you give scum a free night to kill.

If you use your reverse action on yourself you will be lynched/killed on sight no if/ands/or buts

.

In exchange for surviving you let scum have a free night. If you are town then you piss off the town for losing a lynch day and you still will be lynched. And Town-prox would have just gave scum around 3 free deaths for no good reason (assuming all kills go through).

[DTMaster]

Reck reminds me of his mafia meta from the invitational. Note to self reread both games to cross check something. Also I'm going to reread ML.

Something is off there in terms of the ML kill.

[DTMaster]

Well Kise's card makes sense now (he claimed to self target). I need to reread Kise again.

a. I expect Kise to return to the game at some point (see Haruhi Mafia with Mikruru's Time Traveller Role where if you lynch her, she returns to the game after being lynched without a flip)
b. Kise is scum causing confusion.

If Kise does return to the game then I highly suspect he's town and Prox/Jarti scum.

[DTMaster]

Um Ythill claimed he played the World.

[DTMaster]

Um. What. I was included in the block. N2 Has 4 reasons why the killed failed.

1. Scum tried to kill Ythill.
2. Scum no killed.
3. Scum tried to kill You.
4. You tried to kill N2.

For someone who's trying to increase the size of the voting block you're not doing a good job.

The following players are 100% town and I am interested in creating a voting bloc with them: Reck, DTM, and shotty.

The most pro -town thing to play the Devil card also is to protect your fellow male players in the reverse action. The forward arcana is a randomized action. The reverse acts as a human body shield to all

males

which is half the player list.

Points against you and Ythill. I find it hard to believe that Ythill would let Reck slide this easily with this obvious case of: Non-reading Reck.

I find it hard to believe

when you were looking to investigate to increase the voting bloc size, when you investigated within the voting bloc

[DTMaster]

Invitational 7. Reck I don't believe you one bit.

[DTMaster]

1.Ythill. One of the reasons also include your mass gender block. If you can confirm it's not limited to cards that means my claimed block puts Reck on the hot plate. Also consider your point about the voting bloc. I find it odd that Reck who's heavily invested in this to misread the arrangement of said voting block. If such agreements were never made

he's putting a lot of effort in being part of a bloc that doesn't have many members

. The only one who was vocal about the bloc was you. And that's suspicious. The argument is called buddying.

2. Reck's reasoning is suspicious. He read this. This was the post directly after your's Ythill.

I'm down for the voting block, though I'm not sure KISE is the best lynch. I'd much rather lynch Jarti or Prox.

Reck claimed he thought Mac was on the voting block. But Mac was never considered to be part of it. If I reread back on page 30. You mentioned that Mac was someone as a person of intrest to reread. Mac then voted stating that he wanted to reread the vote bloc. He agreed that Kise was a good wagon. Then the lynch happened. Considering that Mac was in no way near close to DTM or shotty, this is suspicious on two levels.

a. You mentioned that you thought Mac was on the voting bloc and he was the person who died. I'm reading some psychological subtext that connect the two.
b. The fact that Mac mentioned that he wanted to reread the statements of the bloc.

3. Oh please don't bring up the whole cop = town argument. It's not valid. My role in using the death card does not clear my alignment. Your role with investigations doesn't clear yours. I was a fucking

Mafia Day Vig before

.

4. Ythill, explain this meta read because it reads like the cop ploy Reck did on Dram. It's simillar, and the whole role argument pans out like post-Ythill invite 7 flip.

5. Kise's no flip will be solved later or never. Unless someone has

6. Ythill the World results now? Reck claimed his use of Temperance and it's the only other card that was played.

[DTMaster]

@Reck
Also no. If we lynch incorrectly and we do get a NK, its 2:3 which is lylo. Town still holds a majority. We are before lylo assuming my theory about Kise doesn't come back.

If Kise does come back then you add a number to the total town value.

If Kise is town, it'll be 2:4 which is mylo.
If Kise is scum, it'll still be 2:4 which is mylo still.

The only way this game can end today is it's a 4 person scum team Reck. Can you explain where you got the 4 person scum team?

[DTMaster]

Also what about invite 7 meta that makes Reck obv town. He was scum in that game. It's a scum meta read, not a town meta read. I know, I was scum with Reck.

[DTMaster]

1. Ythill why are you reinforcing the idea that Reck is town without telling us why? The game is over. You can explain your meta now. Saying that the reasons are meta is not a valid response to why Reck is town. Reinforcement of an idea without your reasons does not answer questions. You're repeating the " NO U" argument.

Plus I totally love that rhetorical question. You get me to assume you're town with that question. I gave you bulletproof but that doesn't mean you are cleared town to me. In fact I was planning to use that against you earlier because of my irony statement earlier.

2. Reck why must there be a cop. Dude we just finished a game where someone took that issue to MD because there was no cop. There is a chance of a cop. If that's your only defence then it's poor. Your voice of investigation topic coupled with your



reasoning makes your claim scummy becase you disconnect what you say with what you did. It's plain and obvious. That and I blocked you the night of the kill with a jailkeep.


3. Prox by role alone is someone to watch out for now. If he lives in the end game he can force a scum win probably on cards alone. If we do mislynch today that isn't Prox I recommend you keep an eye out. His towniness will be obvious .

4.

[DTMaster]

Oops I'm on my iPhone. Also EBWOP Prox in lylo end game.

[DTMaster]

Wait you claimed you killed ML?

[DTMaster]

Reck you expressed Jarti was scum. Why me over him?

[DTMaster]

Note to self something about the VC points to Jarti scum and Switz/Ben town. Especially in the mid day 1 VC. Most of the people on Switz's wagon are confirmed town with UK/MO and Jarti.

[DTMaster]

Err the night of no kill ebwop.

[DTMaster]

1. I don't find my arguments against Reck null. That's your opinion though. I rather explore all options while we have the chance before lylo. I found a problem with the lylo ratios I posted. It assumes that no third party roles exist. If a survivor exists, the game will end in favour of the survivor tomorrow (i.e. It'll be a 2:2:1 ratio if both mafia players were not lynched or 2:3:1 if Kise returns to the game). The survivor should claim now if there is a case.

2. Ythill do you have a problem answering questions? I don't find that very townie of you. You explained why you felt I was obv-town, why not Reck? You're disconnecting from how you handled explaining why I am pro-town versus Reck.

3. Reck you mean Reck/Ythill/Mac right? Or is Mac not included in your town read?

Mod do an activity prod

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: was since Mac is dead. You didn't care outside of Ythill/Mac/Reck bloc.

[DTMaster]

I believe the only one in the dead flips is Socrates replaces Ani.

[DTMaster]

I wish I had Reck's card or Socrates/Ani was alive. Investigating Prox would be so optimal right now. I'm going to put together a claim chart of actions.

Just making sure Ythill you claimed you killed ML? Right?

[DTMaster]

Oh sorry I missed the post. Ignore that last one.

[DTMaster]

Day 1
I played Death Reversed and made Ythill Night Kill Immune

Night 1
Switz/Benmage Played Emperor in Reverse. This causes all females targeting females to fail.

Day 2
Shotty force lynched Socrates with the Sun Arcana.

Night 2
Ythill played the Empress. All cards that Males use on Females will fail.
I played the High Priestess and Jailkept Reck.
Kise selftargeted himself with Strength.
Shotty played Star and Watched ML. ML was not visted by anyone.

Night 3 Actions
Ythil played The World and Protected Reck.
Reck played Temperance and investigated DTM. Innocent.

Cards still in Play.
Reck -> Devil

-If a card effect targets you, it will randomly hit someone else from your gender
-If a card effect targets someone of your gender, it will hit you

Switz/Ben -> Hierophant.
Prox ->

Tower can either make a player voteless or make a player a double-voter. And Judgment can either get two players lynched in one day, or revoke the lynch for the Day and end the Day (as a no lynch).

Special:
Jarti -> Claims to have no cards.

Feminine
Ythill
Mitsu
Capn
UK
ani
DTM

Masculine
Mac
SC
Jarti
Kise
Switz (PoE, assuming equal numbers)
Reck (PoE, asssuming equal numbers)

Benmage's card isn't claimed. Everything is claimed at this point so we should full claim now.

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: Jarti is also Card Immune. As well Shotty = Mitsuru, Capn = Prox, NS = Jarti (which has a conflicting claim. NS claimed male, Jarti claimed genderless child), Switz = You Benmage, Socrates = Ani, M_O = UK

[DTMaster]

1. NS claimed a gender. Jarti claimed genderless which is a mystery on it's own. Hence conflicting Gender claims.
2. Claiming no-action is extremely easy when most of the claims have been done and Dram announces all card uses.
3. Occam's razor points to Star Ythill. Dram announces all card actions in thread both night and day actions.
4. I have an idea since we have two anti-town claims. We are in a worst case scenerio today: of 2:5. Prox can play a card on Jarti (the vote card is the easiest since it's the most visual). If Jarti's claim is true then he can't get double voting powers, or Jarti can still vote. It'll solve the conflicting Gender claim that NS/Jarti has.

[DTMaster]

Removing Jarti's vote would be the best way of role confirmation. If Jarti can still vote then we know his claim is legit. If Jarti loses his vote, we caused scum to lose his vote. Thoughts?

[DTMaster]

An idea. Moon is a passive card. Who's to say that all the cards are activations.

[DTMaster]

1. If they're not ongoing games can you link a few meta refrences?

2.Eh.. speculating about cards that haven't been announced by the mods is getting us in circles.

Day actions are, for the most part, instant actions, but obviously less subtle, because then

I announce a card has been consumed in the next votecount.

Unless my Kise revival theory is right, we won't find out what's up with the flip until the end game. What we do know is that the wagon was generated very quickly and Kise was in support of a self lynch. Kise also was unsure if his action worked but seemed apathetic towards the wagon buildup.

Flavour analysis is something I never trust in, especially when I designed games where flavour analysis hurts the town. Dram likes to stick with correct flavour, but he gives fakeclaims as needed.

Overthinking has gotten me into trouble more then Razor.

3. The Prox issue is something I'd like to consider. If you don't agree with the plan, that means you unconditionally trust him to not end the game in lylo. Hence Reck's investigation would have been best used on Prox. If Prox lives tomorrow, the game is already determined on a coin flip if Prox is aligned with the town. As scum he'll end the game with his Tower card and today would really be lylo as Reck outlined incorrectly.

What is certain is Shotty and Prox are not on the same team if one of them is scum. Coordination between cards of both players would have let scum end the day today if they were smart, the day before lylo. That relationship is clear enough for me. Both players can be town though.

Edit: Your plan also works and it can confirm Jarti's role without losing the double voting powers.

[DTMaster]

Also since I mentioned it, half of the problems aren't problems to begin with Ythill.

[DTMaster]

You know when I read Kise, he reads as town for me. I'll elaborate when I'm not on my phone.

[DTMaster]

Yet he mentioned that his town reads were both Socrates, and ML. I'm seeing what gems I can get by rereading people's stances from Day 1. There be gems there.

[DTMaster]

Hmm. Prox. I have a question. If No Lynch was the second leading lynch, would the Tower card be negated (as in only The lynchee and the no lynch would get lynched?)

[DTMaster]

Can you ask to make sure? Keeping all our options open is something I would like to do if we are going down this road. Circumventing the tower via no-lynch is something I want to explore just based on statistical numbers alone (aka we have to hit correctly today or we lose).

@Benmage
What is your stance so far based on your rereads?

[DTMaster]

Because?

[DTMaster]

Eh.. thats ok. So long as the specific players are who I agree with. Prox already played the tower card, so he should burn his second card at any time.

[DTMaster]

Also I find it silly Jarti is arguing against Ben's/Prox's PM claiming. Like super silly.

[DTMaster]

Why aren't you asking the question to Dram Prox?

[DTMaster]

As it does state people, there is ambiguity to what defines the second highest lynch. Do ask the question.

[DTMaster]

Omg shotty you could have rapidly ended night?!!!!!! You could have stopped
all scum actions if you did a rapid submission! Zomg. Also I want to claim last and I spot something off in the claims so far. So Benmage chop chop.

[DTMaster]

Note the specific tunnel on the attack of Prox over Benmage.

[DTMaster]

Shotty why did you choose to play the card during the day over night? Did it occur to you to end night early?

[DTMaster]

Um... exactly? As in if you sent in your PM it will end night, with the same logic that you applied to the day card. Again, why didn't you play it at night?

[DTMaster]

So if one wagon only goes through the second last person who was voted will be substitued in the lynch then?

[DTMaster]

Shotty, you said that you read your PM as this

I thought it just meant I could end it right after pm"s were sent in
and we wouldnt have to wait untill dead line

You didn't bother toa ask. You also said that your night card would end night early before the deadline (as in all actions that haven't been done before this new rapid deadline should fail)?

You're ignoring me at this point. I don't see any town motivation not to inquire about this.

[DTMaster]

Um, you're not confirmed town with any card. I'm not even confirmed town and I didn't kill with Death. Unless it's an innocent child card, you're hardly confirmed town. Saying so it's really scummy.

Remember that argument where I said it's unlikely shotty and Prox were on the same scum team due to card synenergy. Well there is still one argument thats super WIFOMY which can be used if we pull from your over all game play so far. That is, it wasn't ideal for scum to do a double lynch, force lynched at the time (or save it) if we were close to scum on the wagon. It opens up the door to that pairing. I'm going to skim over your meta links from Ythill. I did see some elements of your town game here, but I want to read over the scum meta now.

[DTMaster]

Hey Ythill Benmage fits the active lurking title.

[DTMaster]

Is there a particular reason you chose to not full claim in the full claiming? >>;;

And you're in 3 ongoing games. 5 if you counted Cereal Killer and Alphabet Mafia which just ended around now. You care more about your other games when you request mod prods, do attacks on and off different players. For a guy who's replaced in its been 4 days since you mentioned anything about your read. So guy who replaced into this game, it's been well over the acceptable time for you to catch up. Heck it should be easier for you to catch up now that you are free from two games (one of them super big).

[DTMaster]

You do realize we are in mylo/lylo right now because today is a double lynch day?

[DTMaster]

It's technically mylo atm I believe, the only way it's not is if Kise returns (my theory), or if Benmage is town. Scum already knows who to shoot/not to shoot and there are no claimed counter cards that can stop the NK today if we double mislynch except Benmage. We just need to hit once to survive till tomorrow.

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: if Kise returns and is town.

[DTMaster]

You now know my source of anger then. I suggest you catch up now while you are here. Your claim though has given me something to mull over.

[DTMaster]

Ummmm where did this theory come from? We had only 1 NK per night. You're seriously considering 3rd party scum?

[DTMaster]

Um... no in this setup where everyone has different one shot power roles, the only thing that is needed is the front page Innocent PM setup. Scum actually do not have a reason to fake claim their cards because everyone one has different and unique powers. Scum might leave out details in their cards. Scum might change things if they think claiming their cards is scummy for what ever reason, but then we'll see that. But in reality there is no reason to fake claim their card powers.

[DTMaster]

It seems counter inututive, but town are more likely to withold information from their cards over revealing things. Ihmo Ythill claiming bullet proof is actually a good case for this and why I'm mulling things over when Ben didn't claim.

When I played the reverse death card Ythill day 1 was trying to draw the bullet. He mentioned how he's going to die. It was an obvious trap. But neither of us mentioned this. I claimed I played the reverse death card on Ythill day 2 but I did not say how I prevented death. In fact reverse death could just have been a doc protect or a full day/night cycle kill protection. Even it could make Ythill respectable, and it would fit with the "title of death".

But Ythill claimed BP. This is counter productive to what the card is since I want scum to shoot him. Now Ythill prevented that.

In this case town are more likely to withhold information over scum. Scum actually want Ythill/I to claim what I did. It's more advantageous for scum to know this.

[DTMaster]

Reck, you know what.

Revoke: Death on Ythill
Kill: Reckoner

.

[DTMaster]

Screw you for not caring at lylo/mylo. I need less noise in determining who's scum. Like I said I have super secret powers and I'm not confirmed town. Just because I played BP doesn't mean I entirely lost my day kill.

[DTMaster]

.

I'm going to cool off now since a vein popped.

[DTMaster]

Booo. Don't spoil it. I wanted more reactions from Prox/Jarti before Dram posted the VC. Oh wells. Anyways here is my role

No matter where they run, the humans all gather again in death. And when they feel it is soon their time, they all go back to their higher being and confess, ignoring the omnipresence of the Arcana.

DTMaster, You are an Innocent Woman, touched by The High Priestess and Death

-You can vote and post
-You can at anytime consume the power of one of your tarot arcane. Once used, a card burns, so choose how you'll play your cards wisely

The High Priestess
-PM me the name of a player. That player is jailkept for the night
-PM me the name of a player. That player can't be blocked, but can't be protected either for the night

Death
-PM me the name of a player. That player dies
-PM me the name of a player. That player will be given a one-shot immunity to death.

You win when the mafia is defeated

Since it's 7 and 4 to lynch this should be safe to test out.

Vote: Ythill, Reck

[DTMaster]

You started it. :{

[DTMaster]

It's close endgame. Unless they want to shoot you two nights in a row to get rid of you when in that turn over we can lynch 3/4 people in the bloc of most likely scum.

[DTMaster]

unvote

[DTMaster]

Actually, no you're still the second leading wagon. It's not a tie for the second wagon as mentioned by Dram. Benmage still has his vote on you Ythill.

[DTMaster]

Wait no. You just lynched Benmage who self voted?!?

[DTMaster]

Mod do a quick vote count I think you screwed up

[DTMaster]

Why do I think it's Prox/Ythill. My brain is hurting.

[DTMaster]

Which is why I'm confused.

[DTMaster]

The card I didn't show was not used so stop asking me, scum.

vote ythill, shotty

Ben is 100% scum. Prox is implicated.

Note that Ben and I are each at two. If he is lynched ATM, I am the second lynch.

Well I am 100% town so lets have some fun fuckheads lynching the Guy not even caught up...well my only scum read is you chief so enjoy.

unvote vote Ythill, benmage

Today's Card: The Tower

benmage (3): Ythill, DMSIS, Reck
Ythill (2): DTM, Benmage

Not Voting (2): Prox, Jarti

With 7 alive it's 4 to lynch
Deadline is the 10th?

See what's weird.

[DTMaster]

Yeah, I know, except his last vote was on himself. Shouldn't that be then Benmage on benmage only?

[DTMaster]

Oh wait nvm that didn't happen to me either. Mystery solved.

[DTMaster]

Benmage. I want you to play your block card. Now. Since it blocks all actions during a full cycle I want you to block Shotty who can confirm this.

[DTMaster]

No. Because I'm being careful to make sure

the block works at night for very obvious reasons Ythill

. Because it can block kills.

[DTMaster]

The plans was to lynch Jarti and X person. Lynching Benmage seems too hasty. Benmage could have negated the effects of your bullet proofness with the first half of the card and killed you outright.

Something is not right in this case

[DTMaster]

In fact if Benmage was scum, it would have made more sense to reduce all the powers of the guy who claimed the effects of death and killed him with the normal flip of the Arcana card. Your frustration is showing scum signs. Rather then reasoning with me, you're frustrated

that I'm not blindly following you. This is a sign of scum-stration not townie frustration.

Both Reck and Jarti are following your plans. I'm not, I'm critically thinking the angle that is Scum-Yhtill because that issue has not been addressed.

[DTMaster]

Benmage if you're here I change my mind. Replace the action with a block all killing action. We lynch Jarti and X person and that limits the possibility that scum is with Jarti.

[DTMaster]

Benmage if you're here I change my mind. Replace the action with a block all killing action. We lynch Jarti and X person and that limits the possibility that scum is with Jarti.

[DTMaster]

No that doesn't work if Benmage is scum. I change it again since the block all is not verifiable. The powerless card is more confirmable.

[DTMaster]

Who ever said the kill had to be blocked. I was unaware that immune to card effects also included super kills. We had a jailkeep and bullet proof in play the night of no kills. When I read Ben's card claim the first part reads as a disable.

Can you clairfy if said card also block factional abilities ( I read the reverse incorrectly) when you force someone to be powerless. I refuse to hammer on the chance that if Ben is town he can save the game tomorrow if he blocks correctly.

[DTMaster]

If we are wrong with Ben I want thy card in play directed of course. Rushing the lynch before that is more proscum before we burn that card. If it adds a clear to someone over night then it works even better.

[DTMaster]

Hmmm, Benmage I want you to do one thing.

Block Reckoner

. I will hammer once that happens because I believe I covered all the bases. If I die tomorrow, Ythill I want you to reanalyze Benmage's reaction to how I directed the block based on his flip, especially if Benmage flips scum.

[DTMaster]

Ythill. Did you use up your bullet proof? I claimed it already. I claimed one-shot.

[DTMaster]

Bahhh I'm going with my gut. If Benmage flips scum then it's Prox. If Ythill flips scum then it's most likely Shotty or Jarti. If Neither of them flip scum it's most likely Jarti.

Vote Ythill Ythill, unvote, vote Benmage Benmage

[DTMaster]

If Ythill flips scum, Prox is likely cleared.

[DTMaster]

If Ythill is scum I'd lean towards Jarti. THIS GAME MAKES MY HEAD HURT GAHHHH

[DTMaster]

Huh.

[DTMaster]

Now you sound like it's Jarti/Shotty now >>;;

[DTMaster]

Now I'm reconsidering my Jarti statement.

[DTMaster]

Bahhhhh. Gut read lead me astray. I wish I had my death vig card here. There was too much anti-town noise within the bloc that I got frustrated in deciphering the game. Something that bothered me was the speed of Kise's wagon which made me question the Kise-wagon theory.

I have a suspicion now that Benmage will flip town and the game will be dependent on that block. Oh well it's too late to worry about that.

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: Kise-scum. It felt like a cop-out to me.

[DTMaster]

Lol, in other news I broke your lynch record D:.

[DTMaster]

Bahhhhhhhhhh the crap.

[DTMaster]

Wow.... did I get lectured for infighting with the scum in the bloc for the end half of the game when I was alive? Note to self, stick to my gut reads.

[DTMaster]

I should have lied and said my jailkeep was a role block and just implicated Reck. :< This makes me sad.

[DTMaster]

In Hindsight I should have pressed that Reck thought Macklock was obv town, which explains the NK. :<

[DTMaster]

Siggggghhhhh, I SHOULD HAVE TRUSTED MY GUT AND WENT WITH MY OMG I BLOCKED RECK FOR A GOOD REASON.

[DTMaster]

I don't quite understand why the cop argument stuck. Nor I don't understand the meta arguments. I'm rereading and I'm going: wtf Reck is scummy for playing like the last game.

[DTMaster]

I also realize the irony about the infighting statement lols. Considering I was pressuring Reck pretty hard, the infighting was on scum >>;;

[DTMaster]

1. I don't see how Reck played well when he just lurked through the end. :<. It's more of the case of who was more anti-town in the end game rather then actual scum hunting since Prox/Jarti/DMSIS didn't contribute. Reck vanished. Then it was spammed with Benmage/DTM/Ythill noise.

2. SC was the cop, so in terms of counter claiming meta, that was lucky.

3. DMSIS also chose to kill the guy with recharge rather then ending night. Ughhhhh wtf. I would have used death on Reck since I blocked Reck that night (thought I was going to die).

4. I blame myself for the huge paranoia fest. But my gut was on the monies. I share the blame since I should have stuck to my guns and convinced Ythill and the rest of the sheepish town who followed the Ythill train that looking inside the "confirmed bloc" was best.

5. I still don't understand the meta arguments. I asked about it and it was shot down.

Ythill it's the end game, what's this meta argument that convinced you that Reck was obv?

. I'm still pondering over it: like I said Reck was

pulling something like the invitational.

. Which somehow won again? o-o.

6. Flavour was awesome. Shame half the cards got nullified via death. Some of them look fun.

7/

What does Fortune do Dram?

[DTMaster]

Magnus could have done a second kill if I claimed day 1. Scum would have 2 kills that day. Good thing I didn't / hindsight lols.

[DTMaster]

1. I'm still mad that I had Reck tagged when I blocked him. Darn you gut versus logic reads.

2. My ML point was on the money. ZOMG. D:

3. I'm happy though you guys didn't like me very much :3