Mini 1051: Utopia Mafia - Game Over

[Flameaxe]

First post to annoy oman in a long time.

[Flameaxe]

How about now?

Vote: Ani

ANIWAGON '10, ROW ROW ROW.

[Flameaxe]

I have something legitimate to suggest. This is not random.
Sides gain power as deaths occur, correct? The description of the game said it might be possible that we would consider lynching a townie for the power it gives.
So what does this mean to us?
I think it would not be a terrible idea to begin the game with a policy lynch. Namely Ani. If he comes up Scum, bravo to our luck. If he is town, then maybe we will start getting some powers. And either way, it gets rid of Ani.

Vote: Ani

Thoughts?

As if enough players haven't pointed out, no. Think of it this way, we gain power due to deaths, yes, but we also lose power from numbers. We also lose any potential power said townie would have, if he were to live. Yes, while the town generally "gains", the possibility of losing an individual power makes this idea fairly stupid.

I'd also like to add that while this game does have differing mechanics from most games in that we would gain power on faction death, it's still a mafia game. It still has town, it still has mafia. If the town lynches the mafia, the town wins. If the mafia kills off the town to gain a majority, the mafia wins. That doesn't change, and because of that our approach to this game shouldn't either.

However, I would like to point out that I am torn between idiotic or scummy when it comes to this case. I'd like to see his reaction to the negativity regarding his proposition.

JD hasn't posted yet, he must already be flaking. Shanba, your effort may already be too late!

[Flameaxe]

Ugh, ninja'd. I guess that takes care of my "see how he reacts" part of my post.

I kind of agree with your reactions, minus the view of Kast's post. His main point regarding bussing was fine and dandy, but when it comes to commenting on your post, nothing special pops out. He agreed with fishy and restated fishy's point. I personally wouldn't jump straight to townie with that, it just didn't require any effort. It's like if I said now "I agree with shanba, he isn't bitter.", I'm not adding anything special with the comment, just rehashing points.

[Flameaxe]

He agreed with fishy and restated fishy's point. I personally wouldn't jump straight to townie with that, it just didn't require any effort. It's like if I said now "I agree with shanba, he isn't bitter.", I'm not adding anything special with the comment, just rehashing points.

His main point regarding bussing was fine and dandy.

[Flameaxe]

Day one has been going for under 24 hours, can we stop the whole "People need to post more" business? It's pretty irritating.

[Flameaxe]

Hold up there, bucko. I never made any comments regarding VPB, nor did I ask you any questions regarding him. I'm not sure if fishy is grasping at straws here, the more this conversation goes on.

[Flameaxe]

The same thing everyone knows. The other players in the game.

Answer the question.

[Flameaxe]

@Jdodge: The earlier suggestion had two purposes: to garner reactions and to get us out of the RVS. The contradiction with my current opinions is because the earlier (like most of my actions) was a way to get reactions.

I don't know about you guys, but I don't buy any of this. How convenient that as soon as erg0 asks if you if you were fishing for reactions, you refer to your posts as just that. Too fucking convenient that your entire reply to JD keeps bringing up this same point multiple times. This isn't even taking into account how sick of the "I did _____ to get us out of the RVS". It's total bullshit every time it's posted, and yes, that does include yours.

In addition, you claim that the suggestion was to bring the game out of the RVS, yet in the very same post you essentially do the same thing by joining a RVS (essentially) random wagon. Your backtracking isn't helping your case at all.

Unvote, Vote: Exe

for now. Got another post for other comments coming up in a sec, just want to get this part out now in case I get called away before my class starts.

[Flameaxe]

Just gonna go through posts I feel like making a comment on since my last post.

Votecount Post (Oman): Fuck you, Oman. More importantly though, where's ani? I know it's kind of early to ask for prodding, but everyone has checked in to the thread but him. It would be nice to see him once and a while.

VPB 40: I don't think it is relevant. As far as I can see shanba asked you a question keeping in mind who we are playing with. It's not a question of who is skilled/experienced, its a question of "if you know how these people play...<question>". I like how you still haven't answered the question in this post.

Exe 46: I don't really feel parroting to the same extent that you do, and essentially VPB does agree rather than parrot. Not that I'm too keen on that either, but still. Although, buddying I can almost see here.

Exe 48: The argument doesn't hold. Show me how it doesn't. Do work. What might ani's "hi, sorry i'm late" post that will inevitably appear do to prevent a vote at this point. I mean, he might not even be coming around any time soon. Ani's opinions of this game shouldn't prevent you from voting on yours now.

Exe 49: This is dumb. It might not put a lot of pressure on a person, but it will put some, and it will show us definitively what your opinion is. That's a good thing by the way. As JD said, all votes can be said to contribute towards a lynch. If everyone followed this mentality we would never get past L-4. That isn't helpful by the way. Even then, a vote doesn't need to be on its own, if you can show everyone in a clear drawn out post why someone is scum do it. If people agree then your "pressure" vote could move into a wagon.

Exe 51: You seem to be popping up a few times on this read. That's probably not good. Again you start up with this whole "It doesn't hold" business.

Show. Us.

Maybe then we can take your points seriously. In your original "reads" post, I would agree with fishy that it did seem as if there was a clear contrast being presented. I lost my train of thought here. Sorry.

Dodge 57:

No setting yourself up for accolades tomorrow. We're not working like that. You're coming across more likely as someone trying to push an efficient bus on a stupid partner than you are coming across as someone who should YEAH BE REWARDED.

^This. I can't put it any better.

Come on people, pick it up, I know you can do better.

I can?

Exe 60: :headdesk: , Are you really this dim? You either think he is scum, or you don't. Normal people don't think "I don't think it will put enough pressure on him to be useful". Normal people also don't sit around and not vote because you are afraid of OMGUS. Yeah, if you vote him for no reason at all, he is going to call you on omgus, and for good reason. I don't see any reason for a townie to use this process of logic.

VPB 61:

lol, bussing on page two for no explicable reason? cool.

This reply seems pretty off to me. If anything, I'd say JD has a semi-respectable point, and certainly warrants more of a response than this.

What reactions have you garnered now that you've finished with that? Have you come to any conclusions?

Again, ^This. Put your money where your mouth is Exe.

That's the end.

[Flameaxe]

VPB:

VP - what do you think Exe was expecting to gain from that if he is scum,

bearing in mind the playerlist?

Underline: The part I feel you commented on. Not underlined: The part I feel is still not adequately discussed from you.

Well, I'll warn you now. There are going to be times in this game when I agree with other people. I know it's a crazy concept on the internetz and all, but it happens. You should probably prepare yourself now.

Clarification: Agreeing is fine, excessively agreeing and using said agreement as a way to push a lynch is bad. In some ways I see this, which is why I said it was "not as much parroting as it is agreeing, not something I'm keen on". Clarification success?

No, it really doesn't. It's a pretty dumb argument to make actually, as it rarely happens. My response was more than sufficient. If Exe is lynched and flips scum, you're damn right I'll take credit for it.

I forgot the part where YOU know what I feel is off. My bad, brah. This post just makes you seem like an arrogant twat, and an idiotic one at that. You can take as much credit for an Exe scum flip, that doesn't make you in any way cleared of bussing. Simply replying to any possible point of bussing with "Nuh uh, that's stupid", (which is an exaggerated simplification of your post, but gives the exact same impact) is not sufficient, and again, makes you look idiotic in the process. Considering you're right there at my number 2 right now, its safe to say I'm not going to rule out bussing unless I have mod-confirmed information to tell me otherwise, and I don't see why I shouldn't.

[Flameaxe]

Kast: That was generally my interpretation.

Also.

Is bussing a strategy you employ as scum (examples appreciated but not necessary)?

Not to be a pest, but what exactly are you trying to accomplish with this question? This really isn't something I'd see myself asking at all in a game of mafia game.

[Flameaxe]

Quick reply:

VPB 40: I don't think it is relevant. As far as I can see shanba asked you a question keeping in mind who we are playing with. It's not a question of who is skilled/experienced, its a question of "if you know how these people play...<question>". I like how you still haven't answered the question in this post.

See that little part at the start? "VPB 40"? 45 is after 40, is it not? My issue is I don't see any of your reasoning being solely something scummy. It goes back to a discussion all too similar after my return to the site, which is the discussion of "more likely as scum" vs "scummy". It's happened in a game currently ongoing, and I would love to come back to add more about my annoyance of the discussion after it ends. It goes nowhere and accomplishes nothing.

Do you think I've been "excessively agreeing" with people this game? I'd argue that I haven't.

No, I consider you doing the second part of my quote. I felt the strongest part of your post was your agreement with fishy, and that is where I have issues.

Well, in fairness, it is a really weak point. How likely do you think it would be for scum to bus each other hard from page 2? Do you think the benefits so outweigh losing a player from the start? If you do think that, why did you disagree with Exe's policy lynch of Ani? Wouldn't "bussing" a town player benefit the town just as much as it would the scum doing it to one of their own? I stand by my point that intentionally losing a player for no reason other than to (potentially) gain powers is a sum loss game and a terribly weak argument to accuse me of. Yes? No? Maybe so?

It's not too unlikely. It doesn't matter if its page one or page 100, bussing is bussing. I don't see how you see it being so unlikely. It's called distancing, people do it, and people quite often do it early. Comparing this to Exe's policy lynch is dumb, they are completely different situations. A policy lynch is based on absolutely nothing, the bussing issue was brought up AFTER exe posted his policy lynch idea, and AFTER the outcry of said idea. Nothing != something. Simple logic there. Bussing in this situation, despite comments earlier that bussing would be more common (and have nothing to do with my comments on bussing, you almost seem to have that mixed up), is based solely on what's happening in thread. This whole discussion started by you claiming Exe would flip scum, and that you deserve a medal for. I'll ask you, if he doesn't turn up town, are you willing to take all this credit you're claiming you will if he flips scum? Something tells me not.

[Flameaxe]

Sorry, I genuinely missed this.

@Flameaxe: Don't call me dim. Adhom is not useful, especially when it's just because you disagree with my playstyle. I felt my vote wasn't useful. Therefore, I didn't place it. Doesn't make me stupid.

Sorry, but my point was not AdHom, and you seem to have completely ignored that exact point. Please comment on my opinion of, as I put it, "being afraid of the reaction", which in itself is silly because you claim your playstyle involves reaction-fishing. A bit contradicting, don't you think?

You act dim, and I will call you dim. Simple.

Secondly, call my "reaction-getting" convenient if you want. Except it's been my style in every game so far. Believe what you will, though.

This isn't a point against me. I don't like meta, and I don't plan on using it. I'm calling it what it is, and it's sketch. Your first post did not, and still does not feel like reaction-fishing, it feels like a genuine plan from you. So, like I said, I don't buy it.

To add to that, who's to say you wouldn't pull said stunt as scum? I think you are, so I put my vote there.

Thirdly, you repeatedly ask me to show how the logic doesn't hold. I have, multiple times. Did you even read the posts between me and Fishy?

Show me, I don't see it. All I see is you constantly pointing it out. And that just plain isn't enough from me. You want to prove me wrong, do it.

Flameaxe has gone towards scum on the other hand. I haven't seen him make any arguments other than commenting on others' arguments.

A) Even if this was true, and its not, what about this would make me scum? Definitive answer please. I'm sick of the non-answer bullshit in this game.
B) As with before, prove it.
C) As far as I can see, post 62 completely goes against your so called "case", and therefore makes B a waste of time. Should have re-ordered these.

In simplest terms, VPB-scum would be gunning for my lynch with this many votes on me. He wouldn't be distracted. Eye would be on the prize. This is particularly true because as the very first vote on me, by now his scumbuddies would have decided to join and presumably he would be looking to get people he knew were townies on my lynch. Thus, his distraction suggests that he feels his argument is solid for now, but he's interested in hearing more. +town

God I hate calling this but WIFOM. Faulty logic too. Any scum that does this is an idiot, and an obvious scum idiot. This logic assumes every day has a quick-lynch as if it was lylo, and I'm sorry but that doesn't work in real life. Why wouldn't scum VPB be on your wagon? There are plenty of reasons why. Who's to say you aren't scumbuddies together. Considering the fact that the two of you are 1 and 2 on my list makes this likely in my mind right now. Other faulty-ness: Most of these points can be directed at me too. I'm on your lynch, yet I was "distracted" enough to miss a vote on myself. If I had my "eye-on-the-prize", why would I be having this argument with VPB? I'm not focused on you, yet you are making the point that I am, and that is strictly false.

Flameaxe is the one my post primarily focused on, surmounting in calling him scum. He has something to gain from ignoring my post.

Yeah? What is that, exactly? Definitive answer as before please.

Secondly, if Flameaxe is scum, then being a late joiner to the wagon means that he has to avoid seeming like he's swooping in to finish off the one who is about to flip townie.

As far as I'm concerned I made valid points to go with that vote, and I still stand by those points because they are still valid. I'm the 4th vote (I counted before I voted, mind you), which is hardly "swooping in to finish you off". We need seven to lynch, you are aware, right? You are nowhere near dead. Nice AtE there at the end, I thought it was cute.

tl,dr; Fuck you reader, you don't get a tldr, read the fucking post.

[Flameaxe]

I did comment on that, and I didn't contradict myself...I explicitly said I wasn't afraid of a reaction and showed how. Care to actually read my posts rather than making shit up?

What little pressure it put would most likely give me the reaction of VPB calling OMGUS, regardless of whether he is town or scum, so voting him will not help me read him at the moment.

I'd call that worried at the least. I did read my posts, and I didn't make shit up. You're grasping.

You use ad-hom, I'll get you force replaced. Simple. Oh wait, want to say again that it isn't ad-hom? OHHHHH? Well it is. Gtfo.

Ha, this is amusing. Getting someone replaced for ad-hom? You really are dim. And that's not ad hom this time. You're just a dipshit. I've played like this for over 3 years on this site and have never been replaced for it, I don't expect that to change, especially with Oman as a mod. He knows my attitude, and probably doesn't see anything different here.

A little defensive? I never said that part was a point against you.

You brought it up in a post in which you claimed I was scum, and you expect me to INFER it wasn't a point against me? Get real. I'm sorry, next time I won't defend myself against this bullshit and just roll over and die for your sake.

If you're going to waste the town's time by acting blind, I'm not gonna force you to stop it. You've ignored plenty of tidbits in my posts so far, so I'm not surprised.

Don't give me the run around. PROVE IT. You're being unhelpful by calling me blind. I have replied to every part of your case against me, and if you see otherwise, prove it. You seem to have trouble getting that into your thick skull.

Blah blah blah. WIFOM is a shit argument. Everything is WIFOM. You never

know

a person's true intentions. You judge. This is my judgement. Not to mention, I pointed out why the case applied differently to you. But hey, that's only like the 5th thing you've ignored.

I agree, it is shit. That's why I said I have bringing it up. I'm aware you pointed out why it was different, but it was based on nothing concrete. I was simply showing you that all of the points you make to say VPB ALSO APPLY TO MY ACTIONS. We are doing the same thing in your logic, yet I am scum, and he is not. It does not add up.

Wasting our time again...

You're one to talk. This post is a waste, and you are completely ignoring my question. HOW IS THAT NOT WASTEFUL? HOW IS REFUSING TO ANSWER QUESTIONS OR PROVE POINTS TOWNIE? WHY MUST I SPEAK IN CAPS TO GET THIS POINT ACROSS?

AtE? Do you even know the definitions of the words you are using? There were no emotional comments in that quote.

Apparently you don't. "when I flip town", small, but still AtE in my book.

Long story short: This line by line argument is getting tedious. I've made my case, if you respond line by line to this post as well, expect a short response from me. Stuff like this only fogs up people's reads. BTW $5 says you call this scummy too.

I've responded to your "case", and shown that I find it flimsy, and that's generous. You're right, I do call this scummy. Scummy is refusing to prove YOUR OWN POINTS when asked to and refusing to answer questions when asked. That is not townie behavior. Period. You're right, I find it scummy that you are threatening to cut this back and forth off. You brought up a case, I responded, you replied to my response in a scummy way by refusing to give information asked of you and now you are threatening to stop any sort of analysis with THE PLAYER YOU ARE VOTING. That is fucked up, and that is scummy. I cannot see any reason for you to not reveal information and to give a short response to a rather important post regarding your case, and those voting for you.

[Flameaxe]

You're just a dipshit.

That's just ad-hom. Leave. We are playing a mature game. We don't need name calling from preteens.

You ignore my cases. I don't need to post them over and over. So I'll ignore you.

A) HOW THE FUCK AM I IGNORING YOUR CASES, IVE RESPONDED TO EVERY LAST POINT YOU'VE MADE. I feel that a point you've made is a fabrication, and I'm asking you to point out how it isn't. THAT IS YOUR DUTY AS A TOWN PLAYER IN THIS GAME, NOT IGNORING SOMEONE WHO IS DEFENDING AGAINST SAID POINT, IT MAKES YOU, AS I SAID, A DIPSHIT. Stop acting like it, and I'll stop calling you it.

It's not ad-hom, and I suggest you look up what it really means. My calling you a dipshit has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OTHER POINTS THAT I AM GENUINELY BRINGING UP, and I am disappointed in you as a mafia player for not being able to look past it and actually do some fucking work. I called you a name, grow a fucking pair of testicles and deal with it instead of hiding like a baby.

[Flameaxe]

I'm aware I am being very abrasive and a bit of an ass here, and I apologize to the players and the mod. My frustration in Exe's actions are getting the best of me. Please, Exe, just answer my questions and we can both move on.

[Flameaxe]

Where? Where is he? There are two questions that I have asked three times and gotten no response beyond "I'm not going to waste my time". That. Is. Not. Helpful.

[Flameaxe]

Fuck it, kill me. I'm tired of this shit.

unvote, vote: flameaxe

[Flameaxe]

Where? Where is he? There are two questions that I have asked three times and gotten no response beyond "I'm not going to waste my time". That. Is. Not. Helpful.

No no no, I mean he is a dipshit.

Okay good. Everything is right in the world again.

[Flameaxe]

Unvote

.

Ani, get here.

[Flameaxe]

Fuck it, you go find the questions and answer them.

(See, it's annoying, isn't it?)

[Flameaxe]

Your point? You're acting like it, I call it like it is.

[Flameaxe]

Hey long post. Reading it now.

Before I do:

MOD

: Ani situation/prod?

[Flameaxe]

Hey long post. Reading it now.

Before I do:

MOD

: Ani situation/prod?

Thermodynamics homework > Reading.

This happens this afternoon now.

[Flameaxe]

Real quick before I head home (I'm mid read):

And the fun train comes to a screeeeeeeching halt. I'll post these thoughts then work on a lecture for you all later.

I'll clarify this a bit (regarding my meta comment). Obviously if I have played with you, my thoughts on your playstyle are effected. If I know firsthand how you play, its hard to avoid meta thinking. Secondhand, however, I don't put a lot of weight on. This is especially true when someone comes in with a post saying "THIS IS HOW I PLAY, CHECK MY META", which I feel is stupid. I'm perfectly fine with meta until you start using it as one of your strongest point of a case or a defense.

Fishy should remember this similar discussion from another game I won't name for a few days.

Sorry if you don't agree with this. Not my problem.

[Flameaxe]

I'm here. Got reading side-tracked. Should be done by the end of the night.

[Flameaxe]

Meh game is meh. Sums up my entire read.

Exe: I miss the fire. Lets add fuel to it. (Note, thats a joke. I'm just making a point, feel free to ignore it because you seem to enjoy that anyway). Insults are not instantly ad-hom. An insult is an insult. Calling you dim is calling you dim. If anyone in this game took me calling you dim as a way to discredit your attack is...well, dim. Yeah, I insulted you, but I also made what I felt to be very valid points back, and I don't appreciate those points being cast in a shadow to show that you're upset about my insults.

17 - My answer of "wasting our time" was regarding the constant repetition of "prove it/definitive answers." I was tired of repeating myself. In terms of what he had to gain, I think that he felt he could avoid my argument as flimsy/coming from a scum suspect, until I called him out on it.

If your case was strong enough, you would have absolutely no reason to avoid answering a simple question. I asked for definitive answers because I'm sick of not getting them (and no, I'm not referring to this game, I'm referring to all games since I've made a return). What would I have to gain from asking you for proof? If your case is as strong as you think it is, I have NOTHING to gain, and everything to lose. If your case is flimsy, your answer will be flimsy. What do I have to gain other than finding out a flimsy case against me, and why would I not try that as town? Nothing you did call me out on anything, it avoided my questions and halted discussion. That's not town behavior.

For good measure:

In respect to showing that fishy's argument didn't hold:

Show me, I don't see it. All I see is you constantly pointing it out. And that just plain isn't enough from me. You want to prove me wrong, do it.

In regards to ignoring your original post:

Yeah? What is that, exactly? Definitive answer as before please.

Please, answer them in your next post (or whichever replies to this post), or quote where you already did. I'd appreciate it.

If you have anything you need me to reply to and I missed, let me know.

The Erg0 case:

Meh. I could say I'm not seeing it, but I sort of do, just not to this level:

Hop on the Erg0 wagon -- scum lynch is a go.

Sure, the case is there, but honestly. The case is fairly weak in my opinion. Especially not strong enough to warrant an Exe vote move like he did.

Another one for you Exe (sorry).

you aren't pressing VPB very hard despite your vote on him.

What part of a vote means you are expected to press someone hard? 118 seems like pressing enough to me, but it apparently isn't "hard enough". I think that if you press someone very hard, you're threatening possible tunnel vision, and who really wants that beyond a scum observer?

But yeah, meh case makes me go meh.

The Kast case:

Not as meh. Not meh at all.

Kast is pushing nothing. He's posting, but I'm not sure why, because all he's added up to now is well... theory, I guess? Great way of flying under the radar. Also note that in his last post he's preparing to move on to the VP wagon which I am convincing myself is probably just an enticing townie lynch - and as such, is the easy lynch for scum to jump onto today. The explanation he gave that he wanted to vote for exe despite knowing the case was weak doesn't sit well with me, but I've been drawn into wagonning too many townies doing that kind of play. Regardless, Kast is scummier.

Through my re-read, I didn't think much of this kind of posting, but after going through a second time I agree completely. Can any of you honestly say who Kast is leaning towards with any sort of certainty? Even after a quick iso, the best idea I can find is

I'll prolly pay extra attention to VPB. Right now the strongest impression I have from this game is that VPB has been pushing an "anti-town = scummy" train despite being a good enough (and cynical enough) to know that's not any more true or likely than "anti-town = bad/weak player".

and its safe to say, that isn't very convincing.

With my vote being on Not Voting right now, I think i can

Vote: Kast

. I still think Not Voting is scum, but yeah.

Thats what I got right now. Anything else in particular you think needs my attention urgently, let me know. I'll be on a bit longer.

[Flameaxe]

Thank you. Despite the fact that I wouldn't hold that as a 100% disproof of fishy's point, I appreciate you pointing it out for me. Just because you say "nuh uh, I did it like this", doesn't mean anyone should really say "oh, in that case, it doesn't hold" other than yourself. You know whats going in your head, we don't. Unless someone here is a mind reader, and I doubt that. Plus, it'd be unfair.

[Flameaxe]

I understand your position. But I understand it as it coming from a personal point of view. Looking at it from outside, I can't bring myself to just accept that you did as you said simply because you said so, and that means that any credibility of fishy's argument becomes null. It doesn't in my perspective. I have no reason to believe your side of the story, and I have no reason to believe fishy's theory. Calling either one of them a null point wouldn't make any sense from my point of view.

As for definitive proof, you gave it. I asked you to show where you thought you proved fishy's point wrong. You gave it. I'm not trying to show proof of this, because simply, neither of us can provide it, as you said. You know what is in your head, I do not. I can only go off of what you give in your posts, and nothing there has given me a reason to believe any other way.

As for the second question response, I'm not sure I follow. I don't really see avoiding cases against you to be something smart on either faction. It's only a matter of time until someone, including yourself, points out exactly that, which doesn't put me in any better light, if not a worse light. If I respond, perhaps I could point out flaws in an argument, and show the weakness of said case. This would apply to either a scum player or a town player. I'd be shocked if I found a player in a game who didn't try to defend himself, it just doesn't seem like something someone would do.

Final point: I disagree on erg0. I know exactly who erg0 is suspicious of. If you want to read more into my opinion of the erg0 wagon, I'll direct you back to 140. I even posed you another question hidden in there regarding it. Eld, sure a bit. I do however feel like I can tell his general opinions of many players, including his dislike of the two main wagons, and his still current vote. I'll see it to an extend, but I'm getting much more of a town leaning reading from him than I am with Kast right now. Six pages in, and Kast still does not have a vote. In addition, Kast's posts to me feel like rehashing mixed with a bit of fluff. A lot of points he makes don't feel like they have a huge impact on the game, or they are just a very similar point to something previously posted.

Hopefully this helps you see my line of thinking here.

[Flameaxe]

Funny thing is though, the thing that is wasting the most of the town's time is having to deal with people ignoring questions and re-asking them multiple times. Just saying, man.

[Flameaxe]

TOMORROW OR TUESDAY I SWEAR

I plan to hold you to this, sir. Accept it.

[Flameaxe]

Funny thing is though, the thing that is wasting the most of the town's time is having to deal with people ignoring questions and re-asking them multiple times. Just saying, man.

I don't respond well to insults. One might argue that wasted as much time as well. Just saying

Insults garner reactions, and you seem to like reactions. One might argue that abrasive, borderline ad-hom play can be incredibly useful. Just saying.

Not responding to a question actively wastes everyone's time, as there really isn't a reason to ignore it. It wastes an even higher quality of time when you end up answering in a later post when you could have just answered the question outright.

I mean.






I'm just saying.

[Flameaxe]

Haven't had too many changes, but I'd love a votecount and an update on what the fuck is going on with a player who has yet to post 7 pages in.

<3

[Flameaxe]

And triple post.

Ani, whenever you want to stop being completely worthless, feel free. I don't think anyone is against it.

[Flameaxe]

I've made my points against you. Perhaps its your turn to read my posts. And trust me, the reaction I got from my insults are very useful, and I think they definitely show alignment. So using your own logic, I think, therefore I am correct.

I like playing like you. It's so much fun.

Perhaps you should also start finding useful cases instead of all these idiotic ones you keep pushing and actually find someone worth lynching. I'd appreciate it.

[Flameaxe]

At least I'm making a case. You're just flaunting your pride.

Again, I've made my cases. Show me where I am not, and I'll push my own lynch. Try me.

If I didn't know any better, your tone almost sounds like you want another slapfight. Bored with your flimsy wagon, are we?

[Flameaxe]

Addition: It really seems like I'm the scummiest of scummy right now. Put your vote where your mouth is. Please, I beg of you. If I'm that obvious scum to you, lynch me so I can laugh in your face about it after the game when your reads are completely wrong.

[Flameaxe]

But you've used this is how I play multiple times in the past. Do you feel you were stupid then?

Honestly? Yes. Back then I used "This is how I play" exactly how I dislike it now, as an excuse. I played gut, and I lurked, and honestly, outside of a few cases, it didn't work. You've seen it fail miserably yourself (Prophecy comes to mind), so I'm choosing a different approach now.

I miss flimsy too.

[Flameaxe]

idiotic shanba wagon is idiotic.

[Flameaxe]

idiotic shanba wagon is idiotic.

If a wagon is what it takes to get more information out of him, then I'd say it's not idiotic at all. It's quite useful, in fact.

Pressure wagons are idiotic. Idiotic reasons for a pressure wagon are idiotic.

[Flameaxe]

Because this game kills my brain cells, and it would only lead to a flamebait from you, so why bother.

I suggest you truly look at the "reasoning" for everyone on this Shanba wagon, it's horrifically weak. Tunnel vision? Really? Try better. VP's reason, from what I can tell, is that the wagon is "very win". DDD: Correct arguments, flimsy "subreasoning", no elaboration.

If you want to pressure me, put your money where your mouth is, because we're all sick of your mouth in this game. And by all, I mean those who agree with this statement.

[Flameaxe]

Oh and Kast: A few flimsy points to cover-up an otherwise OMGUS vote.

[Flameaxe]

Sorry, I missed a part: He actually calls Shanba out on omgus, which makes little to no sense. Clarify if you would, Kast.

I'm cool with leaving my vote, or changing it it [VP, Exe].

[Flameaxe]

Was there a reason for 233 or 235? Are you trying to draw exe into another pointless argument? 237,238,239 are actually relevant and would serve just fine without the preceding taunts.

I wasn't aware of my opinion of a wagon being a way of drawing someone into a pointless argument. But you're right, I should just stop giving my opinion, it only draws out an argument with someone who obviously wants it.

I feel that the wagon is idiotic, and I feel that it's necessary to explain that. What's funny is that 237-9 are obviously reinforcing 33 and 35, yet to you still jump to me drawing out a slapfight, which is obviously not the intention. Believe it or not, every post of mine isn't a way to get into an idiotic argument with dim players.

[Flameaxe]

I'll volunteer that the biggest weakness against my actual points against Shanba is that they aren't definite scum-tells, and could just be "Shanba is a weak player who gets easily upset and doesn't care whether he is lying"-tells.

And

[Flameaxe]

they aren't definite scum-tells

[Flameaxe]

Uh, we're 10 pages into a game, with pretty long winded posts. I think we can come up with something a little better than "not definite tells". If you want to try to apply this to every other case, go for it. I have no reason to prove it as such, you do.

I think I've made it pretty clear I think your reasons to vote Shanba are weak at best, as with just about everyone's reason at this point.

[Flameaxe]

@Flameaxe-
Not really. You are the one claiming there that my points fail to meet some undefined standard that you won't clarify. You are also the one claiming that there is enough information posted that I should have 100% rock solid case proving someone is definitely scum. Post some evidence to support your claims or admit that they're just the baseless assertions that they are.

No no no, bucko. You made a claim. Back it up. None of this "well, you back up a claim you vaguely hinted at in your post" business. If you couldn't tell, many mini games hit day two before the 10 page mark, and just saying "oh, its still day one" is a fucking idiotic reason to claim that pushing a case on flimsy points is valid. I like where my vote is at more and more, this is great!

You yourself said that your own case was based on tells that aren't definite. All I see there is that your reason is flimsy, and you're trying to validate your flimsy case by sparking this little back and forth with me. You're not proving anything here, start doing it.

[Flameaxe]

You're beginning to sound like Exe, but you might beat him on the dim meter by now.

If you want to try to apply this to every other case, go for it. I have no reason to prove it as such, you do.

Prove it. You said it applied to every other case, you have yet to show this.

Strawmanning, huh? You're pulling shit out of your ass now. This:

I'll volunteer that the biggest weakness against my actual points against Shanba is that they aren't definite scum-tells, and could just be "Shanba is a weak player who gets easily upset and doesn't care whether he is lying"-tells.

Is the definition of a flimsy case, not to mention it clearly shows that even you yourself are not convinced by it. Why should I take any case seriously with a post like this one? The answer: I shouldn't.

If you are claiming the burden lies on me to go through every single post and show that it isn't a definite scum-tell, then it's obvious you're trying to shut me up by asking a ridiculous waste of time undertaking. If you think there is even one post that relies on definite scum tells, then post it.

I am, because it is yours. You claimed that there hasn't been a single case in this game that has been based on definitive tells (note, the original discussion stated definitive TELLS, not cases; You seem to be moving away from tells to cases, almost in a way to make me look bad. Stay on topic, thanks. We'd all appreciate it for once.) and I want you to follow up on it. It's obvious you don't truly feel this way, as you are obviously avoiding any possibility of it happening.

This conversation is idiotic. You should have stronger tells than you do at this point. Period. Your main focus (and one could say only focus as your opinion post had everyone at either neutral or barely one way or another) has been towards Shanba, and you yourself brought up the biggest "weakness" to your case in that your tells are not definitive, even adding that (as I read it) they might not be tells at all. This provides an easy way out in a mislynch, and I don't like it. Man up and find some stronger points.

The fact that many D1 games end in a case with flimsy points is NOT a reason for why we should be acting apathetic towards our day one lynch today. The fact that you seem to be using this logic worries me, whether you be town or scum.

PS: As much fun as three people talking over each other continuously, I'd rather have 12. Make it hap'n cap'n.

[Flameaxe]

It's not my job to read between the lines, its your job to present your case clearly to the other players in the game. If everyone was reading between the lines on every single point, this game would turn into 60 pages of "you misunderstood X, why would you do that?' which is simply put: silly. I've already given my opinion of "looking up someone's meta", and I won't repeat it. ISO. I haven't played with him, so I don't plan on treating his playstyle in any specific way.

As for his town game: Not necessarily super town, but more of town by way of 'I haven't seen anything scummy from him thusfar' and the points against him don't change that at all.

Calling a wagon "very win" is unhelpful, and doesn't really have any lines to read between. In fact, I would wager a guess that there is nothing to infer from your vote jump at all. Especially not anything regarding treading water or gut feelings. What don't you like about your gut feeling this game that leads you to believing shanba is scum?

I lost my train of thought _______________<Here. I'll tell you if it comes back.

[Flameaxe]

I have played with Shanba, and I do not find anything out of order with how he's playing, even given taking what little meta I remember from

not playing for a year and a half

into account.

By read between the lines, I did not mean literally look for subtext in every sentence everyone posts. Your hyperbole is silly. I meant read between the lines of what Shanba is posting.

Vague is vague. I'm not a mind reader, and I doubt you are either.

[Flameaxe]

Stop being dim, and I'll stop the insults.

[Flameaxe]

A) I will once again state: You were the one who originally made the claim about non-definitive tells. I then told you to show it. You avoided this by asking me to show the opposite. I have never made a claim saying the opposite of you, you are only avoiding what is asked of you. There is no other way to view the events of the last few pages. I think you are full of shit, so I want you to prove me wrong.
B)It is not a semantic distraction. You are changing my words into something that cannot be proved until a lynch. A definitive tell != a definitive case. In any way. You changing it only makes you look worse in my book.
C) Again, I have never made any claims regarding definitive tells existing. Stop making things up. There is no way to prove something that has not been presented in the first place.

D) I don't think there is a definitive spot in a game to have better reads, however given the content in this game so far, I believe you should.

Your claim that a player should "man up" and lie that someone is more suspicious than they actually are is a load of BS and is an extremely anti-town position.

Cute misrepresentation. I said man up and find some better reasons for pushing for someone's lynch than something that you yourself stated might not even be a true tell. That is flimsy. Your case is flimsy. This wagon is flimsy. This game is stupid.

E) I never claimed that you said that your reasoning was flimsy. I brought that up individually. I do, however, think you need to re-examine the definition of the word strawman, I'm not sure it means what you think it does. Not definite is not exactly flimsy, adding to your claim that your tells aren't definitive that it might not be a true tell at all MAKES IT FLIMSY.

F)

Your claim that I was using it as an excuse to allow a flimsy case is a straw man. The point obviously shows that your example is not relevant to our discussion.

Explain and show. I fail to see that giving a hypothetical as I see it is a straw man. I don't know what goes on in your head. You do. I repeat: I am no mind reader, I cannot know without a doubt what is going on in your head and I need to form an opinion on how I feel your thought process is going. My opinion is a sour one.

[Flameaxe]

@Flameaxe-
Every time that people show you that you are wrong, that's because you are wrong, not because they are "dim".

Sorry, I don't see anything wrong with any of my points, or how you are apparently proving it wrong.

[Flameaxe]

I have no plan on posting any more during day one. I have my vote. I'm not planning on moving it. This game is stupid. It doesn't deserve my effort anymore. If you have any problems with this Ouman, shoot me a PM.

[Flameaxe]

I don't plan on being replaced. Sorry to burst your bubble.

I will say that both you and Kast seem to have a lot to say about what I post, and that I "start slap-fights", but let me ask you this: What does it all mean in the terms of this game, and your reads in this game (of me)? I don't truly feel either of you have given this point, you're all hung up on proving that my thoughts on mafia theory are wrong and instigating "slap-fights" further (and you are, sorry if you feel otherwise, but you're wrong if you do).

[Flameaxe]

I'd also like to point out that this day will most likely go nowhere from this point. After 11 pages I find it fairly clear that the majority of players in this game are essentially set in their ways at this point, and I don't see many opinions changing at this point in the game.

[Flameaxe]

Since he was ignoring the vast majority of my points anyway

Not seeing this.

[Flameaxe]

I don't plan on being replaced. Sorry to burst your bubble.

I will say that both you and Kast seem to have a lot to say about what I post, and that I "start slap-fights", but let me ask you this: What does it all mean in the terms of this game, and your reads in this game (of me)? I don't truly feel either of you have given this point, you're all hung up on proving that my thoughts on mafia theory are wrong and instigating "slap-fights" further (and you are, sorry if you feel otherwise, but you're wrong if you do).

And *cough*

[Flameaxe]

In case it's not clear, 277 is directed at Kast. This of course doesn't mean you need to refrain from throwing an opinion on the matter, if you so choose.

The problem is that you're not really doing anything relative to an alignment because your arguments tend to not be relevant to the game. You spend most of the time calling people stupid and/or demanding that people "prove" their arguments, and that's pretty much as far as it gets. Hard to say whether or not that is town, or scum, rather than just your attitude.

I'm fine with this answer. My asking of you was more of a "I'd like to know more about why I have a weak read, or no read". Follow-up: Where do 64 and 74 lie within your read as of right now?

[Flameaxe]

Actual posts 64 and 74. Your pre-slapfight points against me. Yeah, I know. It's a while back, I guess I'm just interested in where they stand still.

[Flameaxe]

That's exactly what I was looking for, thank you.

[Flameaxe]

Kast:

A lot has occurred since that post. I have read that post, and want to know if it has changed given the events of the last few pages. That's all, no need to get all "pay attention" on me.

I don't see where I am ignoring points and questions. If there is any point you think I have done this, please go ahead and direct me to them, and I will do my best to answer/reply.

I don't see where this "crap cases" comment is coming from either. I don't feel that any of my cases in this game have been crap, nor do I see where you have shown that they are.

Your constant distraction accusations of legitimate attempts at gaining information from you is noted.

My post was not one to make points. My point is to get an understanding of your opinions at this point. I don't feel I have a solid grasp of your opinions, and I would love for that to change. Is that so wrong of me?

[Flameaxe]

Only posting to say that I won't really have time to post anything beyond a few short scattered posts until either friday night or saturday night. Agree with a rudeboy rudeprod.

[Flameaxe]

Kast (4): Eldarad, Shanba, Flameaxe, Jdodge,
Shanba (4): Kast, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Exe, VPB
Exe (3): Erg0, Ray, a2rudeboy
Erg0 (1): Fishythefish

Unofficial of course (Order of votes isnt correct, by the way. Didnt switch DDD's vote when I knew it was coming right back to Shanba)

Shanba's claim doesn't change anything for me vote-wise.

I'm cool with leaving my vote, or changing it to [VP, Exe].

Haven't really changed my mind about this for that matter. Huge "meh" at VPB's 346. Believable, but easy to fake is some pretty weak reasons to jump on a leading wagon after a claim, imo. I could probably make this claim about 90% of claims, fake or real.

[Flameaxe]

A leading wagon for a lynch is what I mean. If it wasn't a leading wagon, why would he have claimed exactly? Other than 90% of the shit in this game being 50% illogical.

I'm aware you've been gung-ho for a shanba lynch, thus why I called it "meh". *return gang signs, threaten to pop caps in ass*

[Flameaxe]

JD: He said the shanba wagon wasn't the leading wagon, not that he wasn't leading the wagon.

[Flameaxe]

Alright, we have two essential doc claims.

Where? I see one cryptic maybe doc claim.

[Flameaxe]

Hence the word essential. Either way, they've both claimed the same role. Does my point not stand?

Hardly the same role. From what I can tell Kast is claiming the sample PM in the first post. That post simply says "you're a VT, and you stay a VT." not "VT then blah blah". Not the same.

[Flameaxe]

Unvote. Vote: Exe

Lynch minus one by the way (assuming 6 votes as stated in the last VC).

[Flameaxe]

Flavor?

[Flameaxe]

Flavor?

[Flameaxe]

I assume it's not exactly the same though, being a rogue. Is there anything rogue specific in your PM, or is it really exactly the same as the initial post?

[Flameaxe]

I'll rephrase I guess. I'm assuming the rogue role gives you abilities, vague or not. How does it flavor those abilities/flavor being a rogue?

[Flameaxe]

So there is nothing special about you being a rogue then?

[Flameaxe]

I'll assume your PM doesn't state anything about shit hitting the fan then.

I've gotten what I need to from this little back and forth. Exe is a great lynch. In the words of my fellow asshat:

ME WANT HAMMER

Couldn't have said it any better.

[Flameaxe]

I can guarantee one of two things: A) Exe is lying about his role. B) Oman is a dick, and I'll be sure to bring it up after the game with him.

Use this accordingly.

[Flameaxe]

Obviously, if I'd rather not reveal anything if I don't have to. We've had three claims already today (assuming Kast's as one of the three), which is already a few more than we probably need. It doesn't help having three people not commenting on the last few pages either, on an unrelated note.

From just the events of the lynch reveal itself, I'd call it pretty dickish. I'll admit, the rest of the setup would change the dickish-ness a bit, but I'd still be pretty frustrated with him.

[Flameaxe]

Newsflash to VPB: Exe was hammered.

The consistent wanting to lynch a potential doctor is stupid guys. Vague role or not, its a terrible idea. Come on. It's pretty clear Shanba doesn't have the same PM as the rules post, does that make him scum? No. It makes him not a vanilla townie. I don't see what's so hard to comprehend here.

Just because we don't believe your, lets be honest, farfetched claim that Shanba is fake-claiming, Kast, doesn't make us "town screwing around". I have no reason, at this time, to believe that Shanba is fake-claiming. I do however have more than no reason to believe Exe is fake-claiming, so that is where my vote is at. It's that simple.

[Flameaxe]

I'm sorry you feel like I've been screwing around all day. I do not feel the same.

Bullshit he claimed cop. He claimed that his role PM said nothing and that it was his ASSUMPTION based on the resources given to us that he would become a cop. This is what he said. Based on what I know, I highly doubt he is a cop with the way he explained his role. I have no reason as of right now to assume all players start as a vanilla townie, because it has never been stated as such. What I see in the first post is a vanilla townie PM, nothing more, nothing less. Obviously, we have different points of view in this game, but I can assure you that not all players start as a vanilla and gain PRs. Nothing shanba has claimed is obv-fake-claim like you said. The quicker you figure that out, the better we will be.

As I said, I am voting for Exe because I have very little reason to believe his claim is true, and much more reason to believe Shanba's. It's that simple.

[Flameaxe]

I can assure you that not all players start as a vanilla and gain PRs.

I don't buy this at all. You are making assumptions about the game setup based that contradict what the mod has directly posted and not basing those assumptions on anything. If this is a reference to your claim that Oman is being dickish, consider that you're just making a bad assumption.

BECAUSE I HAVE REASON TO BELIEVE SAID ASSUMPTIONS. JESUS CHRIST, PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS AND THINK FOR TWO SECONDS. PLEASE.

Logic like this is going to lose the game for the town. Get ready, people.

[Flameaxe]

Too much information has been shared with scum as is, imo.

Besides, I hardly think that informing everybody as to my role will help.

Yes.

[Flameaxe]

lol, what? What reason do you have to believe Shanba over Exe in terms of the claim? You're either an idiot or scum.

The fact that no one in this game can pick up on anything at all is astounding. Kast's representation of the town PM is incorrect people. Learn it. Live it. Figure it out.

[Flameaxe]

lol, what? What reason do you have to believe Shanba over Exe in terms of the claim? You're either an idiot or scum.

The fact that no one in this game can pick up on anything at all is astounding. Kast's representation of the town PM is incorrect people. Learn it. Live it. Figure it out.

I didn't agree with his interpretation. Read the thread. Nor was I even fucking talking about Kast. I asked you when you are comparing Exe's claim to Shanba's, what grounds do you have to believe Shanba over Exe? Feel free to answer this time.

Knowledge of my role. That's what. Anything else?

[Flameaxe]

Also: My Kast comment was tacked on, as a separate point. Sorry.

[Flameaxe]

I find that dubious, but whatever. Day is over.

It's not a complicated situation. Every question on page 16 and the start of 17 I asked for a specific reason.

[Flameaxe]

I find that dubious, but whatever. Day is over.

It's not a complicated situation. Every question on page 16 and the start of 17 I asked for a specific reason. The answers I got made me not believe the claim for reasons related to my role. Either he's lying, or oman is a twat.

Fixed for full comments. Also, I can edit my posts....Uh...

[Flameaxe]

I see no reason to claim any more of my role information right now. I see no reason why anyone else should.

My assumption is not stupid, and I highly doubt the mod is being a dick. I'm glad we're resorting to insults about quality of play now. Real mature. You're play isn't much better considering you're pushing a lynch because someone's role doesn't match the vanilla PM. Newsflash: Not all roles follow that pm, and I can say this with 100% confidence. Not that you'll actually take in anything that I'm telling you. My playstyle is too poor for you to take any thing I say seriously.

I've been soft claiming for pages, buddy. I've given what I think the town needs to hear. I can't give anything more on the points I've put across without giving a full-claim. If you want it tomorrow, I'll give it tomorrow. For now all I can say is that your assumptions of the mechanics of this game are not correct. Shanba's claim is not far-fetched.

[Flameaxe]

For now all I'm willing to say is....*

[Flameaxe]

Maturity is at an all time high right now. Crowning moment in Exe's career.

[Flameaxe]

Shanba's claim is not far-fetched.

But of course, it's extremely far-fetched for a person to have claimed the role we know exists.
Especially when he breadcrumbed it RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME.

That breadcrumb was horrifically weak, if not completely bullshit. I have my reasons for not believing you. I followed up on those reasons by my questions on 16 and 17, the answers didn't change my reasons. I kept my vote. It's very complicated.

Edit: There's nothing to take a stand about. I stand by my reasons, and if I need to, I will reveal the reasons down the line. I'm fairly certain you aren't flipping town though.

[Flameaxe]

That wasn't the question. I am not asking about your fucking reasons.

I am asking about what you think of the general playerbase, if I am town. Before you have an entire night-phase to consider the best rationalizations.

Leaning town on Kast, leaning town on shanba, leaning town on JD, looking at eldarad, rudeboy and DDD. Anything else?

[Flameaxe]

Vote: Eldarad

[Flameaxe]

Unvote, Vote: Shanba

. I have reason to doubt the claim now.

[Flameaxe]

Spoiler: Huge Speculation, but I feel its worth bringing the possibility to the table

Who's to say the mafia has a kill before the shit hits the fan? Obviously we can't confirm this before post-game discussion, but it's certainly a possibility for the no-kill last night.

Only in the spoiler because it really is huge, unbased speculation that popped into my head. I don't expect it to be taken 100% seriously by anyone because of that fact.

[Flameaxe]

That works for me. Didn't see that before.

[Flameaxe]

Unvote

[Flameaxe]

And could we get a votecount, Ouman? <3

[Flameaxe]

Yes. Thus why I unvoted.

[Flameaxe]

I only had reason to disbelieve his claim. I've since decided that my decision was a bit rushed and isn't as concrete as I thought. JD's claim changes things in my mind.

[Flameaxe]

-Flameaxe (Updated by flameaxe!)
Scum: Eldarad, a2rudeboy, DDD
Neutral: Shanba, Anyone else isn't leaning very far one way or the other.
Town: Kast, JD

How does a player semi-counter-claiming Shanba make his claim more plausible?
JD's claim had nothing to do with my unvote of Shanba. Like I said before, I reconsidered my theory.

Vote: Eldarad

[Flameaxe]

Aww, I'm not dead. My day is significantly less great.

[Flameaxe]

Meh.

[Flameaxe]

Fishy or erg0

[Flameaxe]

Triple post!

And I must have done something to draw a target last night. Just not the right one.

[Flameaxe]

It's hard to give a shit about this game. Sorry.

Fishy is mainly gut. Skimming over day two, I really don't like his back and forth play between an Eldarad and a Shanba lynch.

Meh. It's pretty clear which way the wind is blowing, and it doesn't bother me at all.

vote: Shanba

And meh is a good way to describe this wagon jump to me.

And Erg0, well its not exactly hidden knowledge that erg0 is potentially doing less than I have in this game, and that's saying something. His day two posts we're weak to say the least.

Third place would still be Eldarad, for similar reasons to erg0. I also don't plan on going along with the DDD is confirmed because when I claim it'll be obvious bit. And I'm all for a massclaim to hopefully change that.

[Flameaxe]

Do you not feel I've earned enough cred that you can trust me that tiny little bit about DDD? It's not like he should even be lynched today anyhow.

I'm not very trusting. I don't want him lynched today either.

[Flameaxe]

Eh, changed my mind. I'll trust you for now. Still not opposed to a massclaim[/pieisgood]

[Flameaxe]

Vote: Eldarad